Let's take a look at this one folks... Stop me when I'm wrong

DKClassen wrote "Let's not forget our country was not founded on socialist liberal principles to which ptownrob is speaking of, it was founded on conservative christian principles."

Well, I don't think anyone would disagree that this is one of the "God, guns & Gays" issues used to demonize anyone conservatives-calling-themselves-christians see as Un American (Liberals, Gays, Intellectuals, Hollywood, etc.)

First Problem: Supporters of this statement are virtually unanimous in saying that the Constitution is not a "Living Document." It does not change unless amended, and thus any law made outside its structure is both invalid and an insult to our founding fathers

With apologies to the colonial Spanish Florida, in the period of 1620-1776, Conservative Christianity- for that matter, mainstream Christianity consisted of what the Roman Church instructed, which had NOTHING to do with democracy, equality, or pulling oneself out of one's situation for a better life.

The Puritans, who represented a rather RADICAL form of Christianity, had no interest whatsoever in protecting the rights of anyone but themselves, but created the first "democratic" form of self-governance and communal sharing of goods and services. Very radically socialistic that was- the stronger and better-off providing for the sick or weak (and there were many), but still allowing each to make his own fortune.

The Dutch, and founders of New York, which became the model of capitalism for us, and the world, were only interested in making money. A noble enough cause, but hardly based in Conservative Christianity.

The Pennsylvanians were founded on principles of extreme religious tolerance-something quite unique in the Colonial world of Conservative Christianity. In fact, even today, the traditions of Quakers, Mennonites and other meetinghouses are demonized as being un-American because of their extreme Deist, pacifist and non-"Christian" nature.

The Virginians, who are arguably the most influential of our Founders, espoused no literal acceptance of the Biblical Text, and avoided a strong Christocentric theocracy in favor of giving homage to "The Deity" who was, in their world-view, a benevolent Christian image figure, if a "figure" at all. None of them speaks of a Second Coming, Rapture, Literal Creation or any other restrictions on human freedom that present-day conservative-fundamentalists claim is the bedrock of our nation.

Conclusion: Our founding fathers represent a diverse Christian-Deist movement founded not on Conservatism, but rather on beliefs that in their time were radical- politically, ethically and socially. They were "revolutionary." If the Constitution has not evolved since its adoption, then the claim of some super powerful Judeo-Christian conservative ethic does NOT exist in it from its origins. IT WAS ADDED TO (ACCRETED) AS TIME PASSED.

Second Problem: There are as many Judeo-Christian "beliefs" that are anathema to our society that to the Founders as may have been positives. Slavery? Women as Chattel? White Supremacy? Land-Owning Supremacy? Clearly, our concept of Judeo-Christian values has evolved since the writing of the Declaration and the Constitution.

Third Problem: There were even more Judeo-Christian Values that the Founders kept out of their own lives, to secure their own fortunes: Divine Right of Kings? Religious Infallibility? The Biblical mandate for the Hebrews to slaughter all who stood before them? The imminent return of some All Conquering Judge? Polygamy (except the Mormons, God Bless 'Em!)?

Fourth Problem: The founding Fathers built clearly NON Judeo-Christian privileges for themselves, both Federally and by Sovereign State that are anathema to J-C Values, beginning with the legalized discrimination and persecutions of the very "Judeos" that modern fundamentalists would claim the Founders honored. We institutionalized slavery, not just in the Constitution, but through our criminal law system which prohibited slaves from learning to read, permitted murder without trial for escaped slaves, etc.

While there very well may be some aura of attempting to seek to harmonize the founding of this great nation upon the BENEVOLENT gifts and wishes of a BENEVOLENT God or Being, there is clearly no documentation that the Deity these very progressive, forward-thinking white male property-owners appealed to is anything like the Judgemental, Angry, Wrathful God that "conservative" Christians call values today.

SO where does all this Christian intolerance and chest-thumping evolve from? Well, sorry to let out the secret folks, but it's appearance on the American funadmentalism, firmly rooted in Calvin, Wesley and Whitehead- was a strong reaction AGAINST the Enlightenment movement that was the underpinning philosophy of the United States. It did not have any strong influence untiul nearly one hundred years after the Revolutionary War

In other words, Fundamentalism is in it's very core ANTI-American, at least if you consider the original Constitution and Declaration to be non-living documents.

Fundamentalists condemned the liberalism enshrined in our founding fathers' ideologies precisely because the Enlightenment driven Founder's did not acknowledge: 1.) The Literalism of the Bible, 2.) the Virgin Birth, 3.) the Return of the Messiah in Judgement 4.) God's grace as the only means to salvation. 4.)The literalism of Jesus miracles.

This movement did not even "exist" until the latter 1800's- under the auspices of revivalist and Dispensationalists Dwight L. Moody (1837 – 1899), Arthur Tappan Pierson and British preacher and father of dispensationalism John Nelson Darby (1800 – 1882). While all of this backgorund information is off the internet, one only has to step back and think about what the HISTORY of traditional "Conservative Christian" values were:

1.) Support for Slavery, under the guise of State's rights. These states's rights trumped the "inalienable rights" of the Decelaration when slavery was the issue

2.) Support Racial Segregation and Discrimination as part of "God's Plan"

3.) The subjugation of women, under the guise of "traditionalism" in the home-itself nothing more than an extension of the biblical concept of women as chattel

4.) Protests against allowing marriage between the races as destroying the purity of the races which God Himself established

5.) "temperance" - The Forced Prohibition of alcohol based on nohting scriptural except an obscure line in the obscure Book of Joel, but rooted in those same fundamentalist thoughts as the others. George Washington was the U.S. largest distiller of Whiskey and Sam Adams a legendary brewer. What part of the Judeo-Christian interpretation of the Constitution justifies tee-totalling?

So this is just the tip of the iceberg. Even the supporters of modern conservative christianity would not say that the movement "Popped up" pvernight. It has a history- an undeniable history- which can trace its roots through those original (Though now largely discarded) beliefs. If conservative Christians awant to somehow claim that they are the bedrockof the Constitution, which I have argued they are not, they they must also acknowledge the subsequent stones built upon it- Support for slavery, segregation, subjugation of women, and the like. It cannot be had both ways.

I would maintain them, that not only is America NOT built on "conservative Christian" values, it is in fact anti-American in its foundation and core.