Hi Folks-

FYI, I started the thread by copying a statement from Dklassen (sorry for the earlier incorrect address) from the "out of touch" thread: "Let's not forget our country was not founded on socialist liberal principles to which ptownrob is speaking of, it was founded on conservative christian principles. That's why we have become in such a very short time the most prosperous and generous nation in the world."

Yoda then speaks he does:

"I do not agree with (sic) either you or DKClassen. This nation was founded by men who were for the most part, deists. They believed (sic)in a supreme being but may(sic) have had several views. It was not founded on Christian principles but on Judeo-Christian ethics in part."

I agree with Yoda 100% about this. It is our ethical foundations, in large part, that are based Judeo-Christian, and even more so on a Deist version of those ethics. Without upsetting ALL sides, I feel comfortable in saying that, by the numbers and the content, our founders were more infulenced by the Enlightenment concepts enshrined in the Masonic practices of the time. I'm not referring to the secret rituals, but rather guiding principles. My point about the three "G"s is absolutely NOT about the Founders, but rather about the strategy of present-day conservative christians to galvanize their base through motifs of fear, exclusion and hatred. Hence, (G1) only conservative Christians can worship God or fulfill his expectations for America correctly; (G2) only conservatives will protect your right to own firearms, and everyone else will simply take them from you and (G3) conservative christians will say that, "gay" anything, abortion, women holding jobs, single-parenting, evolution, and every other "liberal agenda" item makes THEM (the liberal-commie-pinko crowd) a threat to America. It's a contemporary reference, not meant to include the Founding Fathers.

I believe that anyone attempting to justify the founding of this nation, including the First Amendment, on "atheist" values is just as wrongheaded as conservative christians are. Clearly, virtually all of these men believed in some higher power, and that belief is most easily expressed through our Judeo-Christian imagery. Clearly the American image of "the Deity" or transcendence of the "Enlightenment" is not a many headed, multi-limbed Shiva, or a meditating Buddha.

But this Deity is also NOT Jesus arriving on clouds preceded by four horsemen bringing death and destruction; the Deity is not the scrubbed vision of a white women in blue robes acting as our only interceder to some wrathful God; the Deity is clearly not some ativistic/animalist/natural system of rituals and beliefs.

But I'd like to return to Dklassen's quotations of founding fathers and other notables about their religious beliefs. These quotes, more often than not, can be matched or even outmatched by the same individuals warning against the excesses of a particular religion, or any FORMAL religion being enshrined in our official documents. The Declaration is about Independence from a tyrant, not an affirmation of a religious doctrine. It is about proclaiming that the rights of men (white, male, blah,blah,), which had always been subservient to any royal monarchical system, are, because of this new Enlightened understanding of "Our Creator," now equal to all men. Not just elevated, or having rights, but equal to. Not just revolutionary in terms of breaking away from England, but revolutionary in its concept of what equality actually is.

Government gets its power from the governed- REVOLUTIONARY. ALL men are created equal- REVOLUTIONARY. NO organized RELIGION has any more influence within our government than does any other organized religion, the state shall not declare any religion superior to any other through official support, and freedom of all to worship in their own manner and choosing is a protected right- REVOLUTIONARY.


Personally, I'd believe that Dklassen's quotes of Jefferson- who just happened to be the author of the Constitution- reflect the general religious tenor of the Founders, and therefore their intent:

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Notice, Jefferson says a "real" Christian, in his opinion, follows the doctrines of Jesus. And as if we don't "get" that "coded" explanation, he uses the subsequent paragraph at one point: "that tend to all the happiness of man."

Notice, no mention of Pauline doctrines of intolerance, notice no flaming rhetoric about End of Days, Second Comings, Wrathful Gods, Horsemen, Beasts, etc. All things espoused as critical to the live of a Christian according to conservative christian dogma, but not to Jefferson, and not to the framers.

Whatever their personal beliefs, as one reads through the Federalist papers, or the letters of Madison (who wrote the bulk of the constitution), there is no 8,000 lb elephant of Christianity in the room. It just was NOT crucial to developing the nation's foundation, other than acknowledging that "rights" are based on something larger than himself or herself, larger than the government and definitely larger than some earthly monarch.

Steve Z writes: "I can agree that the colonists were the social liberals of their time. However, when one compares the colonists' societal and religious beliefs to the platform espoused by the social liberals of today, there is considerable difference."

Absolutely no argument here either. How many have stopped to think just how progressive those men would be today if they started a revolution today? What would be their political and religious leanings? The only comparable (yet wholly different) situation would be the downfall of the Soviet Union and the rise of Eastern Europe. We saw magnificent freedom movements in Poland, Hungary and Germany. But we also saw tribal barbarity in the former Yugoslavia, and currently see unresolved ethnic controversies throughout the former USSR.

I think the founders would be the intellectuals, the movers & shakers, the entrepreneurs and others. They would be young and financially independent. They would not be hung up on religion, race, or gender or sexuality. They would want a government that stays out of their personal lives, but protects them from outside hostilities- both domestic and abroad. I think they'd want a government that, in this world, provides for the common good, as well as the common defense, but that does nothing to inhibit the fair accumulation of property, goods and the pursuit of happiness.

So would the founder's be thrilled about the state of our nation today. I'd say no. But would they say, "Let's just go back to the way it was.?" Again, I'd say no.

Steve notes: "Much of today's liberalism and behavior was considered 200+ years ago by those liberal colonists as pagan, hedonistic and blasphemous."

True, but I'd offer that many of the behaviors of the founders' would also be seen by the conservatives of the day (Torys, papists, Calvinists, etc.) as pagan, hedonistic and blasphemous as well.

Finally, I love this country as much (not more than, and not less than) anyone else. I will not buy the argument that criticizing the exploitation of three G's means that someone is unAmerican (Thus we return to the beginning of the previous discussion). The complex questions surrounding issues of Guns & God - First & Second Amendment- are not owend by conservative christians. The cross is not owned by conservative christians, and the flag is not owned by conservative Americans, yet somehow these "symbols" were deliberately co-opted by a very narrow slice of the angry and the fearful. The third "G" represents all the social liberalization in our culture- beginning with the end of slavery and following organically through desegregation, suffrage, keeping government out of women's decisions, public education, science, gay & lesbian equality, and hopefully, carrying right through to giving every American affordable, decent health-care regardless of their occupation.

For those of you who can't figure it out, I am a baby-boomer- I'll be 52 next month, so I fall right in the middle of the pack. I have always been proud to be an American, even if I have been ashamed at times of what some leaders have attempted to do in the name of the United States government.

I have volunteered and worked in politics since I was 16, and I proudly worked and fund-raised for federal, local and state candidates, according to our political system and my belief in what is best for this nation- sometimes against my own enlightened self interest. I also spent a successful career in the private sector and in religious organizations dedicating to helping the most frail, needy and least able to represent themselves in our nation.

Finally, I'd have to say I'm most proud of seeing America become respected again as the leader of the Free World, through reasserting her highest ideals. Those who are afraid of this world-view will demonize me, those who understand need no further explanation than what I've given.