PennBF: Thanks for keeping it civil. Again, an honest question here. What violations of the Constitution are you referring to? You said the current violations were worse because they were politically motivated as opposed to what I was pointing out which were, paraphrasing you, security motivated.

Now I don't mean this in an accusatory way so forgive me if it sounds like this. But the reason that I ask about which Constitutional rights you're talking about is that I suspect it has to do with increasing Government agencies and taxing you/us to pay for them.

*IF* that is the case, then I disagree with you. Arguing over a little money and a few more beaureaucrats is *nothing* compared to our basic human rights. In all the years of "feature creep" I've seen in the U.S. government, I've never seen so many rights steamrolled in one fell swoop as with the Patriot Act. Think about it - warrantlass wiretaps. No-warrant arrests bypassing the special courts that were set up *specifically* to deal with time-sensitive cases (i.e. you didn't have time to get a warrant because of the danger involved - special court was designed to allow this so long as you 'got your paperwork' shortly thereafter). Gag orders on subpoenas (librarian can't even say they were served with one of these 'secret subpoenas'). Those are *police state* tactics. All in the name of "security". Heck a whole new HUGE Department of Homeland Security that now makes you take your shoes off at the airport! (Aren't you glad Richard Reid didn't stuff his bogus bomb in his pants!)

If I have misrepresented you, let me know. This is where I *feel* you're coming from and, if I'm wrong, I want to know where.

Abraham Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the Civil War but it was reinstated. This was repeated in an abhorrent manner when Japanese Americans were interned in concentration camps during WWII. That is generally viewed as the worst human rights abuse in American history except for the treatment of Native American tribes. At least those incidents had an end-point (even Native Americans are winning in courts of law).

...and not that I think the government's "feature creep" is good. I just don't feel it's as bad as the above-mentioned examples. I'm reminded of Franklin's "those who trade liberty for security will neither deserve nor receive either".