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Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna
Would you call substantially changing your position on an issue "lying"? If so, you probably should be equally critical of Mitt Romney. If you go back just a few years, Romney has taken diametrically opposed positions on issues--health care reform, gay rights, taxing the wealthy, the environment, etc. If "flip-flopping" is lying, we have two liars running against one another for the presidency. In fact, many of the candidates who have now dropped out can be similarly accused.
I'm a lot less concerned about what the candidates say--they'll all say whatever they think the voters want to hear, even if they flip and flop on issues. I'm a whole lot more interested in what the candidates do (or don't do) vis-a-viz their campaign promises. I don't agree with all that Obama has done as President, but given the continual opposition he's had in Congress, he's delivered quite a bit on what he promised. The problem is that too many people, myself included, didn't listen closely enough to what he was promising.
In retrospect, even had I listened intently, I still would have voted for him. I thought the alternative was that bad. The terrible choice presented was disappointing.
If Romney wins, I hope I'm not similarly disappointed four years from now. He'll get my vote, not because I think he has a wonderful platform that addresses important issues facing the country--I don't. Rather, I'll vote for him because I think he's probably lying (by your definition). I think it's very likely that if he is elected, he'll steer more to the middle, accomplishing what he can thru compromise and negotiation, but with a tilt towards fiscal and social conservatism.
If he does that, many will accuse Romney of lying in this campaign. So be it. But to move forward (geez, that's Obama's campaign theme, isn't it?), I think the president has to lead the country where progress can be made--towards the middle, towards compromise, towards statesmanship, towards progress instead of stalemate. If Romney does that I'll be happier than I am now....regardless of what he says and promises while campaigning.
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I realize that I confuse you with my constant opposition to Obama. We had a number of exchanges as you recall on here in 2008. I said at that time that I had a problem with all the mystery and question in his background...I said that I thought his background that was visible projected a violent rise in spending by the federal government an a further erosion of all of our spending programs along with a deterioration of our defense against terrorism.
First of all, and maybe this will explain part of my feelings...one of the issues on which Obama spoke and really got my attention was health care. I really think I understood where he was coming from and I actually awaited his action. but I imagined it would take some time for it (his plan) to come to fruition based on our economic woes and the breadth of his plan.
Lo and behold, he tackled pretty much right away or within a shorter period of time that I had expected. I was surprised by assumed he was taking advantage of having control of both bodies of congress.
While I eagerly awaited the public debate (didn't really care if it was on CSPAN as he had said) it was apparent it was being done behind closed doors and pretty much ALL within the democratic party which bothered me, BUT ......then he could not get his own party on board without doing some fancy dancing and payoffs. THAT really bothered me, since if you recall, we watched him buy and cajole votes on something we knew little IF ANYTHING about that had MAJOR consequences to all of us. As information leaked out and congress began to talk about it (I am speaking of the democrats), it became apparent that the bill would not address ANY of the things he had beat to death on the campaign trail nor any of those ideas he brought to the Oval Office. Nothing at all addressing COSTS, which he said was the major component, nothing addressing TORT REFORM and while I am much more limited than you on understanding the economics of issues, I began to understand that this bill was of GREAT HUGE COST and it would be paid for with "guesses" on what might or might not happen in the future.
We now have, as a result of his lies (and they were not mistakes in promises, they were in fact lies) we now have a huge item sitting in the hands of the Supreme court, and no matter what they do or dont do, many americans are going to suffer and we have DONE NOTHING to address the COSTS that we were supposed to. We now have, in my opinion, a worse situation that we did when he began his campaign. Then I have looked into WHY he would tell these lies. knowing the impact. It appears there is not grandious mistake....no error in judgement....just simple lying because he wanted this bill to be his legacy and he had to get it done before the 2010 election.
This one program taught me that he seems to be all about telling lies, not making mistakes in judgements and evolving....for example...
In my worries on fighting terrorism, he was so loud, ridiculed so much, mocked people so much that I thought any program that would fight terrorism was history. As it turns out, he has not only adopted almost 100% of the previous administrations plans in that area, he has even grown them. That was not a lie in my estimation....to me, he certainly evolved into what had to be done, thus you will hear very little criticism of him on that issue at all.
There has been a violent rise in spendng, some can be justified, some I just disagree with him on and there is more to come if he is reelected and do not get a big head but I did learn quite a bit from you over the years on here by you getting me to read things I normally would not,and one thing you were pushing a number of years ago was the spending and not addressing any cuts and that is where this is going. VK...we have no budget in this country...we do not even discuss it. We basically are closer to financial disaster than ever, but we continue to talk about spending our way out of it.
I see congress different than you. As you do I blame them ALL, but when I see the Senate, the upper chamber if you will, do the bidding of a political agenda instead of the countries business, I shudder. YES, many of the proposals from Republicans scare me as well, but they as well as I know. those proposals are dead on arrival and going nowhere ever to be discussed. They can say all they want....it WILL NOT BE DISCUSSED. Would a Republican senate be different I have no idea.
HOWEVER, MY MAIN problem with Obama is that he DOES IN FACT JUST LIE....not flip flop...not evolve...just lie and he is so good at it....lobbyists, which I posted an opinion piece on this week is a good example...he has not changed what he says since 2007, YET.....what he is doing is 180 degrees from that and he still says it. NOW that is lying. The current secret negotiations on trans pacific partnership where he supports it and it will give away a lot of our gains in mfg in this country. He may be way ahead of me on this and perhaps we should give up any dream of getting back our place inthe world, but then he should share it and lets get fixing.
There are many more but if I continue, you and others will jump on your horse's can call me some select names.
I still distrust his past...the President offered hush money to his minister and it is NOT NEWS ???? He told the man that his problem was telling the truth all the time....the President said that. You tell me that is not a worry, I will disagree with you...THAT is a symptom of what I told you about in 2008. He will face the truth only when forced and you cannot believe what he says at all...you have to watch what he is doing.
On the more mundane soap opera things.....I dont care at this point where he was born, but it is evident that he has "played games" for whatever purpose he had on where he was born. The President of the United States did this.
So we shall see.....as you can see, I do make a difference between flip flopping and evolving, and as I said I am on board with Obama evolving on somethings....but lying and flip flopping and evolving are three different things to me.
I see what his explanation on the current Bain capital ads means.....BUT THE ADS themself do not even get close to that...they are mean spritited and do not surprise me. I have not forgotten his calling Bill Clinton a racist in South Carolina because he and his campaign felt that was needed....that is Obama. I see not using Wright but allowing the NYTIMES and WASHPOST to investigate Romney's religion without a word except to criticize Romney for not coming out soon enough (I think it took a few hours) to debunk the Wright ads.
All of this, TO ME, speaks directly to this mans character. I did not trust him in 2008 and distrust him more now than then. I felt his backgroun was cloaked in mystery and I still do.
A long post but trying to explain....cause all folks seem to be doing is giving me one liners...NOBODY comes here and supports him or talks about what he has done or even discusses them. They only thing is the ridicule of anyone against him and to make your day, THAT is exactly what Saul would have wanted and exactly how a neighborhood organizer works.