Quote:
Originally Posted by ijusluvit
Ahhh, civility. Thank you too.
You know I've been sharply critical of some of your statements in the past, usually because I felt they were not specific, or "sweeping generalizations". The comment here "most of what he, if not all, of what he promised were just made up and he never tried to do them." is a whopper example.
Under the (incessantly and unreasonably reviled) rhetoric of "Hope and Change", Obama was very clear in seeking to finally realize a a comprehensive national health care plan, equality in the military, leaving Iraq and drawing down in Afghanistan, going hell-bent after terrorists, stimulating the economy, saving (yes - 'bailing out') the auto companies, ending the Bush tax cuts, regulating financial institutions, protecting consumers, extending payroll tax cuts, adding new taxes for wealthy individuals, and moving toward a comprehensive new immigration policy. In short, I find that agenda to be damn ambitious, and impressive. Every one of those goals required super effort to blunt the power of opponents.
With exception of the ACA, please tell me that ANY of the above are unimportant, and/or WHY any of the eventual outcomes in those areas is misguided or negative.
Now, about the ACA. You've asked repeatedly for someone, ANYONE, to debate you on this topic. I've resisted because of the more negative climate which has existed before today. So here are a few opening thoughts:
A comprehensive national plan for delivering health care has been the 'holy grail' for many for almost a century. It has proved almost impossible to enact in any form because of the stranglehold of the coordinated health insurance lobby and their other self-interest buddies. Every poll ever taken said the vast majority of Americans believed it was a high priority, and agreed with the idea that it could and should be realized as part of the fundamental mission of our great country. Debate all day the reasons why people agree with these two points, but certainly the facts about how many people are uninsured, how poor some care stats are in relation to other developed nations, and how costs continue to rise astronomically, have swayed the opinions of many. Obama went all in. Don't think he "didn't try". He arm-twisted and cajoled, insisted and finally compromised to assuage the doctors, lawyers, insurance companies, etc., and arrive at something decent. In the end, that's what he got. He got the overall structure, with the gem cornerstones we don't have to try to get piecemeal in the future. The only big one he had to sacrifice was tort reform. (BTW- the disinterest in pursuing that is a Romney negative point.)
While on the subject of making an effort, I do wish you would stop claiming the President "lied" about his campaign promises and his later efforts to get legislation passed. The sport of "percentages of campaign promises kept" is pure media nonsense. So even though Obama is credited with having "kept" an unusually high percentage of those "promises", PLEASE, can we at least give nodding recognition of the serious limitations to Presidential power. Theirs is not to do, but try to influence others to do.
The reality about a 1000-page bill affecting everyone is that it's effects cannot be initially measured or predicted. We both know this and that there will have to be changes to make things work better in the future. The big difference between us is that you don't trust Obama. Therefore you reject ACA. I don't feel that distrust, so I don't have to immediately dislike the idea and basics of ACA. After looking hard at it, I am willing to support it as a desperately needed foundation.
I understand why they do it, especially after the Court decision, but it's still inappropriate for the Republicans to shamelessly surround every reference to the ACA with scare tactics and downright false information. The truth is that they DO NOT KNOW whether specific negative outcomes will occur, and that they will not be offset by positive outcomes.
I welcome your identifying one or more specific negative outcomes which will inevitably occur through the ACA, and for which you cannot see or accept a positive outcome to offset the problem area(s). I have an advantage here, because if you can find an unquestionable problem, then we will also see a clear legislative solution. If there are positives from the law, such as no denial of coverage, those simply stand as a benefit. Another unchallenged benefit is that the ACA insurance mandate will bring millions more into the health care system and the US Treasury than is currently in the system, mostly from those who use the system but have not been contributing.
So, I argue the ACA from the fact that it overcomes the decades of inertia, sets us on a new course with far greater chance of efficiently addressing healthcare. If you do cite negatives, I am confident I can list positives which overshadow them. In the end you might even change your mind that repealing ACA is a good idea.
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Sorry for the confusion which you may not even know about but got it now under control...
Very good...this will take awhile and I hope I can stay on course as I tend to get off on tangents...so going to try and stay organized,
First, I never saw nor had a desire to see or read the HOPE AND CHANGE thing so for sure that never influenced me and in fact if you check with VK and I only mention him because he has been on this forum as long as me and I cannot think of anyone else who has, BUT I have been opposed to Obama since BEFORE he was even the candidate so this is not a new twist from me or a change.
HEALTH CARE....You say he was very clear in promising a comprehensive health care plan. I direct you to my thread titled..."JUST SO WE KNOW WHO" and there are videos on there. He was not clear, and in fact was all over the place. If you check, his promises during the primary and campaign were all over the place. Instead of repeating what I posted there, I will assume that you will at least check it out, but rest assured that he was forced into things by Clinton and Edwards. Continuing on this subject...you say at the end of your post that I claim he lied.....He said right up to election day that if you voted for Hillary she will make you buy insurance and I will not..videos available...he said he was more interested in lowering costs and that is what he was addressing as top priority. Once elected, he completely not only forgot about allowing us to hear the debate on health costs, he took it behind closed doors and kept it basically secret. He forgot all about health costs and tort reform and was all of a sudden for the mandate, which he violently opposed and was really a help to getting the nod over Hillary if you check back. Now, it is hard for me to believe that he got educated in 6 short months to change his mind and all of a sudden be on board with the mandate.
Next he does not have the votes required under any circumstances and he went behind closed doors with states like LA an SC and all of sudden they got extra federal money and changed their vote. Even Democrats opposed this bill because he had TOTAL CONTROL over both houses and still had to do this. Once the bill is passed he says this is NOT a tax as was immediately called to his attention. YET, HE ARGUED BOTH at the SCOTUS..he argued originally it was a mandate and then argued it was a TAX...he actually argued both sides.
I will not mention the obvious that he claimed and I was impressed about how transparent he would be about it and there would be open and televised debates on this important issue. This is more than a campaign promise and not something he in any way could not do. CPAN says they were ready !
The paying of this is so questionable....CBO will tell you it "depends" on a bunch of "ifs ands and buts" which for the future is down right scary. We cannot pay our bills now.
I will stop now but if you think any of the lies and blackmail I have listed is wrong or not accurate, let me know I will send you as much validation as you need. There is much more but I am going on too long now.
A PS to this section just to allow you to know where my distrust comes from. When he was a candidate I read both of his autobiographies...read as much as I could from the Chicago newspapers about his background, etc,and posted on here that he was not to be trusted..this BEFORE he got the nomination. This is a man who has lied numerous times in his AUTOBIOGRAPHY for gosh sakes..his own biography. He had a reputation in Chicago as a guy who goes where the wind blows and as I recall a quote has no convictions to speak of. I could go on and on but will stop at that since you had specfics.
EQUALITY IN THE MILITARY... I assume you refer to dont ask dont tell. A law that was on its way out anyway, but he DID implement it. I am an older guy so my opinion is sort of skewed and I admit to that, so will leave this entire thing just go as something he did.
IRAQ...lets not rehash Iraq, but allow me to correct you on this. The agreement to leave Iraq was formulated and signed before Obama took office...actually in in October 2008. I realize that Obama never said that BUT that is a fact which you surely can verify. This, another reason for some of my statement concerning his problem with the truth.
DRAWING DOWN IN AFGHAN....Will allow him to take credit for that but note it was after building the troops up but that makes no difference. It does appear that we are getting out.
HELLBENT AFTER TERRORIST...yes he has and does. However you will allow me to say that during the campaign in 2008, he villified the previous administration for ALL OF WHAT HE HAS USED TO DO IT. He actually was ridiculing of how Bush was doing it and when elected he ENHANCED those techniques he had ridiculed. I say this because this is one of many listed as something he accomplished and yet they are actually things he criticized in 2008 and enhance and continued so if you want to give him the credit it is ok with me but the credit should be for CONTINUING what was in place.
IMMIGRATION.....this latest announcement was a little political trick. First there is no way to enforce what he said and he knows it. He has done nothing in immigration for all these years yet if you listen to his talk in 2008 he was going to do so much and do it right away. He has done nothing until this little trick which is NOTHING, and his senate leader will not even discuss bills that would prevent illegals from scamming the treasury. These are all factual and you can check them out or I will be glad to supply validation.
For space I need to cut this short but I did not know he ended the Bush tax cuts....can you show me that ??
And as far as taxes, he appoints a blue ribbon group to study this and then throws them aside and give no consideration to any of their thoughts and this country has a great need for tax reform.
I did not know about the taxes on the rich...I do know that the health bill will surely do that PLUS add to the taxes of the poor and middle class.
I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these items instead of reading a bunch of little tweets.
I tried to, and this could have been much longer....I tried to let you know why I do not think much of this man....and I hope I made some points for you to at least consider. There are a ton more but again, thanks for being civil..
I find the forum stimulating an rather enjoy folks who may not agree with me..it sends me off to read.....
Look forward to your reply
PS...to save time in the future (I hope) please check on the REASON and METHODOLOGY for healthcare law in MASS used by Romney...it is not what the Democrats are saying and it is on a state level which makes sense on a lot of levels