Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucco
Sorry for the confusion which you may not even know about but got it now under control...
Very good...this will take awhile and I hope I can stay on course as I tend to get off on tangents...so going to try and stay organized,
First, I never saw nor had a desire to see or read the HOPE AND CHANGE thing so for sure that never influenced me and in fact if you check with VK and I only mention him because he has been on this forum as long as me and I cannot think of anyone else who has, BUT I have been opposed to Obama since BEFORE he was even the candidate so this is not a new twist from me or a change.
HEALTH CARE....You say he was very clear in promising a comprehensive health care plan. I direct you to my thread titled..."JUST SO WE KNOW WHO" and there are videos on there. He was not clear, and in fact was all over the place. If you check, his promises during the primary and campaign were all over the place. Instead of repeating what I posted there, I will assume that you will at least check it out, but rest assured that he was forced into things by Clinton and Edwards. Continuing on this subject...you say at the end of your post that I claim he lied.....He said right up to election day that if you voted for Hillary she will make you buy insurance and I will not..videos available...he said he was more interested in lowering costs and that is what he was addressing as top priority. Once elected, he completely not only forgot about allowing us to hear the debate on health costs, he took it behind closed doors and kept it basically secret. He forgot all about health costs and tort reform and was all of a sudden for the mandate, which he violently opposed and was really a help to getting the nod over Hillary if you check back. Now, it is hard for me to believe that he got educated in 6 short months to change his mind and all of a sudden be on board with the mandate.
Next he does not have the votes required under any circumstances and he went behind closed doors with states like LA an SC and all of sudden they got extra federal money and changed their vote. Even Democrats opposed this bill because he had TOTAL CONTROL over both houses and still had to do this. Once the bill is passed he says this is NOT a tax as was immediately called to his attention. YET, HE ARGUED BOTH at the SCOTUS..he argued originally it was a mandate and then argued it was a TAX...he actually argued both sides.
I will not mention the obvious that he claimed and I was impressed about how transparent he would be about it and there would be open and televised debates on this important issue. This is more than a campaign promise and not something he in any way could not do. CPAN says they were ready !
The paying of this is so questionable....CBO will tell you it "depends" on a bunch of "ifs ands and buts" which for the future is down right scary. We cannot pay our bills now.
I will stop now but if you think any of the lies and blackmail I have listed is wrong or not accurate, let me know I will send you as much validation as you need. There is much more but I am going on too long now.
A PS to this section just to allow you to know where my distrust comes from. When he was a candidate I read both of his autobiographies...read as much as I could from the Chicago newspapers about his background, etc,and posted on here that he was not to be trusted..this BEFORE he got the nomination. This is a man who has lied numerous times in his AUTOBIOGRAPHY for gosh sakes..his own biography. He had a reputation in Chicago as a guy who goes where the wind blows and as I recall a quote has no convictions to speak of. I could go on and on but will stop at that since you had specfics.
EQUALITY IN THE MILITARY... I assume you refer to dont ask dont tell. A law that was on its way out anyway, but he DID implement it. I am an older guy so my opinion is sort of skewed and I admit to that, so will leave this entire thing just go as something he did.
IRAQ...lets not rehash Iraq, but allow me to correct you on this. The agreement to leave Iraq was formulated and signed before Obama took office...actually in in October 2008. I realize that Obama never said that BUT that is a fact which you surely can verify. This, another reason for some of my statement concerning his problem with the truth.
DRAWING DOWN IN AFGHAN....Will allow him to take credit for that but note it was after building the troops up but that makes no difference. It does appear that we are getting out.
HELLBENT AFTER TERRORIST...yes he has and does. However you will allow me to say that during the campaign in 2008, he villified the previous administration for ALL OF WHAT HE HAS USED TO DO IT. He actually was ridiculing of how Bush was doing it and when elected he ENHANCED those techniques he had ridiculed. I say this because this is one of many listed as something he accomplished and yet they are actually things he criticized in 2008 and enhance and continued so if you want to give him the credit it is ok with me but the credit should be for CONTINUING what was in place.
IMMIGRATION.....this latest announcement was a little political trick. First there is no way to enforce what he said and he knows it. He has done nothing in immigration for all these years yet if you listen to his talk in 2008 he was going to do so much and do it right away. He has done nothing until this little trick which is NOTHING, and his senate leader will not even discuss bills that would prevent illegals from scamming the treasury. These are all factual and you can check them out or I will be glad to supply validation.
For space I need to cut this short but I did not know he ended the Bush tax cuts....can you show me that ??
And as far as taxes, he appoints a blue ribbon group to study this and then throws them aside and give no consideration to any of their thoughts and this country has a great need for tax reform.
I did not know about the taxes on the rich...I do know that the health bill will surely do that PLUS add to the taxes of the poor and middle class.
I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these items instead of reading a bunch of little tweets.
I tried to, and this could have been much longer....I tried to let you know why I do not think much of this man....and I hope I made some points for you to at least consider. There are a ton more but again, thanks for being civil..
I find the forum stimulating an rather enjoy folks who may not agree with me..it sends me off to read.....
Look forward to your reply
PS...to save time in the future (I hope) please check on the REASON and METHODOLOGY for healthcare law in MASS used by Romney...it is not what the Democrats are saying and it is on a state level which makes sense on a lot of levels
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Glad you enjoy opponents. Can I apply for Chief?
You say you didn't pay attention to Hope and Change, that you had already chose to dislike Obama for whatever reasons. I'm baffled then how you know what "promises" Obama made, what he "lied" about and what he "didn't even try" to accomplish.
Please step back from this "promises & lies" nonsense for a minute. You seem to see political campaigning so differently than I. You seem so passionate about every literal and miniscule interpretation of candidates comments. If two comments don't sound exactly the same six months apart, at least one of them is a "lie". You will not acknowledge that "promises" cannot even Constitutionally be made by Presidential candidates, that at most, a given topic is either a priority or not. Again you are seeing 'trees'; sound bites, partial contexts.
In Obama's case, your dislike and distrust for how you literally interpret his every word, obscures the 'forest'. Your immigration comments are a good example. You say Obama lied, apparently because he promised a new comprehensive immigration policy to resolve all related issues. You say he's done NOTHING. You completely dismiss that as chief executive he has pressed for the deportation of more illegal aliens than did any previous administration. His order to refrain from deporting the children brought here by parents, under tight conditions, is now THE operational practice of the INS. It solves a bunch of problems for the INS and how they focus their efforts. It takes the intense pressure off a million people caught in the middle. Have you not read the countless reports of how this was the sensible, right thing to do, something Congress could not accomplish? All of that is hardly NOTHING. It is a good foundation point for a new comprehensive policy. You can be as mean spirited as you want and say it was done for pure political advantage. Again, that is simple bias. What matters is that something useful HAS been done.
Try to understand how differently I view things. I care most about the big picture. I don't invest critical attention to what words the candidates use, and especially how the media and superpacs present them. I just want to hear what candidates care about and a sense of which things are more important than others. Example: I'm not bothered that Romney says he's going to try to repeal Obamacare. He is simply trying to draw from the excitement of this week's Court decision and pander to conservatives. He knows, you know and I know, if elected he won't be able to do it, and because of his moderate views, won't give it more than a passing glance. I'm not going to call him a "liar" or reject him for that stance. To me, when he talks about taxes, the economy and Iran, I want to see how he is going to generally approach each dilemma and how important each area is. Very simply, I'm still thinking about voting for Romney, but would have rejected him long ago if I counted the number of times his statements and sound bites have been contradictory.
Now, back to health care. It is silly to think that a President should be condemned for making changes in his position. This 'horror' you're dealing with about Obama's health care stance being different from Hillary's and including tort reform is completely trivial. In fighting for a health care plan as good or better than Hillary's, Obama was smart enough to realize the mandate was essential in the best model for paying for the plan, and smart enough to drop the tort reform before the whole effort failed again. OK. the ACA was not perfectly complete or exactly as he talked about it a year or two previously. SO WHAT! He got it DONE.
I'm glad you agree with me that there is some meaning to other accomplishments of the Obama administration. You didn't mention some I listed, and I hope you have a bit different outlook on what has been and is still being done, as formally as possible, with immigration.
And, or course, I am looking for any specific negative you can show evidence for in the ACA.