[donb9006]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

This isn't true Don. If you use the same standard for all history books that you just used for the bible, then you have to throw them all away just as you do the bible. What about Josephus? The existence of Christ has NEVER been questioned by scholars. NEVER. They may question his deity...but not his person. So the question is where are you getting your information? You can argue he wasn't God but you CANNOT argue that He never existed.

If Christ didn't exist, neither did George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc.

We have more manuscript evidence for Scripture than any other historical document or works of antiquities. Look up Josephesus, Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 Chap 3. All about Jesus. He was an unbelieving Jewish historian who lived during the first century.

Also, the writers of the NT all lived in the first century and were basically eye witness accounts written mostly by the disciples. The scientific method is called textual criticism. Look it up.

I've got more than 40 years of research into this one book. Every other book you read, this book reads you.

That's ALL Josephus wrote about Jesus...and did you know he wasn't alive when Jesus was? He was born in 37CE. And I bet you also don't know he didn't write that until late in his life? He wrote his "history" from memory. Did you know he was a Roman enemy and surrendered? Besides religious writings...that's all there is. Jesus just isn't mentioned outside Christianity...by anyone.

I'll also tell you...the George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc. you read about in the history books...are NOT the real people. History is embellished.

No, the NT was NOT written by the disciples...all unaffiliated scholars agree most of the books of the NT are anonymous, not written by those whoms names they carry.

You need to expand the source for your studies. I believe you're suffering from confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

Ok, Golfingnut..I have a question for ya. You believe he existed and that he was a prophet. But,did you know he made claims of deity? He claimed to be God. That's why he was killed. So now it has to come down to do you believe this prophet or not?

Also, do you know that Jesus rose from the dead but Mohammed did not? So how can they be compared? Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did.

Did you know that thousands of years before the prophets in the OT said to look for one who would be born of a Virgin (that would be the sign he was the right one) and that he would be the Messiah to save the world from their sins?

That's just it...according to the stories, very few Jews believed Jesus WAS the Messiah. Most said he didn't fulfill all the requirements. Actually nobody did until Paul comes around (Paul NEVER met Jesus) and begins to feverishly promote Jesus and Christianity.

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

Actually, some of the New Testament books were written by people who knew Jesus and witnessed his life. Some were in his inner circle, The Apostles. Notable among eyewitnesses would be "James, the brother of Jesus" and Peter. Matthew and John were also eyewitnesses who authored New Testament books, contrary to your assertion that none of his immediate followers wrote anything down. The fact that they were believers does not invalidate the fact that they were writing about an historical figure.

A principal non-Christian source is Flavius Josephus, a Romanized Jewish historian. He wrote, "About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders." [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ."

Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

Interestingly, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. His virgin birth is affirmed and he is considered a venerated prophet. They simply deny his deity. In the Koran Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Jesus as a historical figure is firmly established.

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No, his Apostles did not write those books of the NT.

XVIII 3.2 is the ONLY mention of Jesus by Josephus. And as I said earlier...it was hearsay, read it again, it's hearsay...he HEARS about a man named Jesus. He wasn't born when Jesus was alive. And he's ALL you've got outside Christian writers who mention Jesus.

Tacitus wrote almost 100 years later...you call that PROOF? Really?

Muhammad started Islam in 610CE...that's almost 600 years after the fact...this is more "proof"?

That's the problem there isn't ANYTHING written by ANYONE during the time of Jesus.

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

Well, John Kennedy died in the 60s. Some of the closest eyewitnesses to his life and his death, the Secret Service agents assigned to protect him in Dallas, are just now breaking their silence and producing books about not only the event of his death but also their relationships with the family members.

I know and respect these agents, some of whom are friends of mine. Why would I not consider their accounts trustworthy?

While on the subject I'll recommend a couple of the books:

In the Secret Service: The True Story of the Man Who Saved President Reagan's Life by Jerry Parr and Carolyn Parr.

Jerry was the agent who pushed President Reagan into the limousine when he was shot.

The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence by Gerald Blaine, Lisa McCubbin and Clint Hill.

Clint Hill was the agent who jumped on the back of the Kennedy limousine in Dallas and pushed Jackie back into the car.


Five Days in November by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. Clint was one of the most psychologically tortured of the agents present that day and went through severe depression afterward.


Mrs. Kennedy and Me by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. When Clint was assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy he considered it a demotion. Later he came to treasure his relationship with her and her children.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm just demonstrating that the passage of time does not mean that eyewitnesses cannot write meaningful memoirs decades later.

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What does this have to do with my question? Jesus wasn't Caesar, if Caesar was killed, we'd know about it.

So Carl, what REALLY happened on that day in Dallas? lone gunman? A lone gunman who was conveniently killed at the police station? Why is everything still sealed? And no, all the sealed evidence hasn't been released, why? Because it was sealed. It's probably been destroyed...it's been 50 years already...I'm sure we'll get an "opps, we can't find it" the day of the unsealing. Like Giraldo and Al Capone's vault.