there has been a lot of discussion about policies that will not pay if a cart exceeds certain limits, it would be nice if someone could post the actual language in their policy and the name of the insurer so we could all be more informed instead of a lot of hearsay...gn

It is my understanding that the speed limit of the road does not change the fact that an LSV cannot legally exceed 25 mph. Go to this link of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety: [URL="http://www.iihs.org/laws/lowspeedvehicles.aspx"]

They also cannot motor on streets where the speed limit is higher than 35, but they can cross those streets.

Contrary to a prior post by Talk Host, this is actually the single most important post on this topic.

Having spent over 33 years involved in insurance claims I marvel at all the insurance "experts" who post on this issue. I've written policy language and litigated thousands of coverage and assorted claim related issues over the years. The bottom line is, show me the specific policy language that strips coverage for a "modified" golf cart.

As TH correctly points, there isn't coverage for insured vehicles rented out to others, or those involved in races etc. There are specific livery and race and speed exclusions in many policies, although, unlike others, I know better than to speak for all policies issued by all insurers. It's fairly common to have these specfic exclusions in most policies. Apparently the Allstate "agent" is able to speak expertly for every insurance company. I personally doubt she knows what the Allstate policy is.

There isn't an exclusion that I have ever seen that says, "If the vehicle described in this policy is modified, this policy will not apply". There is also no definition of "modified" that I have ever seen. So it would read something like "modified means any alteration that changes or alters the vehicle with the intent of enhancing performance or appearance to other than was intended by the manufacturer of the vehicle". So where is that in the policy?

If you increase the speed of the golf cart to that meeting the states definition of an LSV, you need to follow the state mandated licensing and safety rules. However, it's still a 2009 Yahmaha golf cart for insurance purposes absent any specific policy language affecting coverage.

If you insure your golf cart, modify it to LSV and advise your agent, you'll get the exact same policy. However, the rating class will be different and the coverages will change to comply with the state regs. But it still meets the definition of your described and insured vehicle for policy purposes, unless excluded.

Lot's of confusion between being in the proper rating class and what's covered. Most of us have policies "rated" for all drivers over 55 and no youthful drivers. Some even have ratings for travels to and from work less than 7,500 miles per year. Premiums are based upon these factors. If you drive 15,000 miles a year, have an accident, the company doesn't deny coverage for a claim, no more than if you forgot to mention your 30 year old son moved in and now drives the car. An LSV is rated differently than a low speed cart, but it's still a golf cart.

So for all the "experts" out there with statements like "I know it's in there" etc "show me the money"

The most laughable post of all is the statement that not all exclusions are in the policy. Oh really? It's those "secret" exclusions that always cause insurers problems.

I find this to be an interesting quote. I wonder what keeps him so busy. Perhaps it needs its own thread.

JLK

I think there is a thread named "Teenagers" or something like that already going on in one of the forums.

This was addressed 2 or 3 weeks ago in another of these threads. At that time I posted the exact language from my Allstate policy. It was also in answer to a similar question from Golfnut, the same person who asked it on this thread. No one commented on it at that time, so I assumed it was understood to have been a valid answer to the question. Here's the link to that post: https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...065#post301065

Here is the quote from my Allstate policy:

This policy shall be deemed void from its inception if it was obtained through material misrepresentation, fraud, or concealment of material fact. This means that we will not be liable for any claims or damages which would otherwise be covered.

We may deny coverage for an accident or loss if you or an insured person have knowingly concealed or misrepresented any material fact or circumstance or engaged in fraudulent conduct in connection with the presentation or settlement of a claim.

The premium for each off-road vehicle is based on information we have received from you or other sources. You agree to cooperate with us in determining if this information is correct, if it is complete, and if it changes during the policy period. You agree that if this information changes or is incorrect, we may adjust your premium accordingly or take other appropriate action.

This doesn't say word for word what we have been discussing, but it is written in language that will allow the insurance agency to deny coverage if they can show that your golf cart has been modified to increase its speed capabilities. At least that's the way I see it. Are there any lawyers out there who agree or disagree?

I don't expect anyone to take anything said by anybody on this forum as absolute truth. As far as this thread is concerned, if you think that all that is said about insurance and the penalties and the law is hearsay and you are concerned about the truth, it's really easy to call your insurance agent and the sheriff's department and find out. This was all covered in a previous thread and a lot of good information was made available then by people who talked to police and insurance agents.

As far as having a golf cart that will do 25 mph, have at it. You won't be alone as there are many more out there. I strongly suggest speaking to the Sumter County sheriff's office first and asking them if they know of anyone who has been denied coverage because of this and what the results of their being involved in an accident were. They have the statistics. Make your choices based on solid information.

Not trying to split hairs here, but I perceive a "material fact" or "have knowingly concealed or misrepresented..." to be IF [for example] they asked if my golf cart would go faster than 20 MPH and I said no, when in fact it would do 30, then I would have misrepresented or concealed a fact. It might only be a "material fact" if there is premium rates involved. A material fact is rather specific, whether it's insurance or insider trading.

A cart going 25 or 30 isn't an issue for me personally, since I don't believe that to really be unsafe anyway. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong, it's just the way I feel.

Standard policy rescision language.

They issue you a policy based upon your statements on the application. If you have mislead them regarding your eligibility and if the facts you mislead them about would have caused them to not issue a policy, they may void the policy. Changing the speed on your golf cart isn't going to do that. And the fact you should have been in a different rating class isn't a material fact either. When you child turns 16 and starts driving and has an accident, the rating changes. But if you don't call your agent for 6 months they still get coverage for the accident whether or not the company knew of the change in class.

Why would you ask the sheriff any question about insurance policy coverage? Or for that matter, the Allstate agent who speaks for all insurance companies in existence?

My neighbor just put on expensive wheels and larger tires on his cart along with a radio, fan and even a heater. I guess he's screwed if he has an accident since he "modified" his cart.

Can't wait for the next expert opinion!

I said ask the sheriff's department about it because they were the ones who said at the safety seminar what has happened to golf cart owners in the past. If they were lying about it I can't say. That is why I said to ask them. They gave a bunch of statistics about tickets and accidents at the seminar, and they also stated that people have lost their retirement income due to having a modified cart that the insurers wouldn't allow coverage on.

The Allstate agent stated that when one of their carts was in an accident that they checked first to see if it had been modified. She of course didn't mean radios and fans. I think most of us can easily understand the meaning to be modified for extra speed. The man who manages Cart World was there, and he stated that they get them brought in by adjusters pretty regularly to have them check to see if they have been modified.

My question here is, why is everyone doubting the veracity of all this? If you think these people were lying, call them and ask them for the truth. If you think I am making all of it up, go to the next golf cart safety seminar. There were about 100 people at the one I attended, and I think they would all verify that what I posted is in fact what was said. Am I a fool for believing them over a bunch of TOTV lawyers?

Paradise Lost?
 

In a True Paradise, one could premise that laws and regulations regarding speed limits would be redundant because every individual would be uniquely concerned with the safety and well-being of their Neighbors in Paradise.

There has been a lot of rationalizing in this thread. It is obvious some seem to feel there is no basis for the argument against souped up golf carts. They assure you your insurance coverage is not in jeopardy. They scoff at comments from insurance people and Law Officers. They are the "experts" and those who do not agree with them are the "so called experts".

My advice? Read your insurance policy carefully. Read the Florida statutes carefully. Talk to someone who has made the trip to Bushnell to face a judge on a charge of operating an unlicensed vehicle (golf cart modified, altered, souped up or whatever you prefer to call it) and came away a few hundred dollars poorer.

I have done all three and made my decision accordingly. 19.6 MPH top speed is good enough for me.

I'm with ya downeaster! I'm retired I don't have to speed, but can go at a pace that lets me enjoy the ride.

You are completely missing the point here. It’s not the fact that modifications were made to the golf cart that can be the basis for denial of coverage. It’s the fact that the vehicle was altered in such a way that it no longer meets Florida’s definition of a golf cart (regardless of what the bill of sale says it is). Here’s the definition:

FS 320.01(22) “Golf cart” means a motor vehicle that is designed and manufactured for operation on a golf course for sporting or recreational purposes and that is not capable of exceeding speeds of 20 miles per hour.

So if you alter your vehicle in such a way (whether you informed them or not), your golf cart insurance policy is no longer valid any more than your automobile policy would be for a vehicle that turned out to actually be a tractor trailer.

And as further evidence, I submit that the Sheriff’s department is regularly issuing tickets here to those owners of those altered carts for “driving an unregistered motor vehicle” and it’s being upheld in the courts. So likewise, an insurance adjuster will deny a claim for such a vehicle in the blink of an eye.

Thank you downeaster and EdVinMass, for being voices of reason.
I was beginning to think everyone thought I was putting out false information.

It is unfortunate that a lot of these posters still think we are wrong and I guess that is okay. However, if I owned a cart that was capable of exceeding 20 MPH and learned it was not really a golf cart but an unregistered vehicle I might be a little upset. I had paid to have it exceed the limit now I must pay to have it not be capable of exceeding 20 MPH. I might even talk myself into thinking I had no problem after reading some of the input here.

Very ,very highly unlikely if not next to impossible. Maybe if she threatens the judge or cuts the judge off in traffic in her golf cart on the way to the hearing.

The "Florida definition of a golf cart" is not relevant to the insurance definition of a golf cart. It's still a golf cart under the policy. It merely is not a golf cart that qualifies as a low speed vehicle under the Florida motor vehicle statutes. Florida could define a golf cart going over 20mph as a high speed train, but that doesn't affect the policy language.

The insurance policy defines the parameters of the coverage under the insurance policy and the Florida statutory language doesn't exist in the insurance policy. The insured and insurer are bound by the language in the insurance policy, not the statutory definition of the state.

Obviously this is way beyond your limited knowledge and understanding of contractual and insurance law.

If a poster on this forum feels comfortable denigrating the well-intentioned opinions of others, then that poster should, at minimum, establish his credentials. If not, then just agree to disagree, but politely.

EdVinMass has made many contributions to this forum. He does not deserve such put downs. More respect is lost than gained by such remarks.

Keep on posting, Ed.

This should be enough to convince anyone. Instead of sniping at others, perhaps the naysayers on this thread would profit by simply checking with the sheriff's department to either verify this statement or find out if they are right in their surmising. It would also be very easy to call two or three insurance providers and ask them about this issue. If they find out they have been wrong, perhaps they will have the good manners to come back to the thread and post apologies.

Here's a quote from an older thread from a couple of weeks ago:


Sumter county golf cart citations 8/1-10/11
Received this from a person who was at the meeting.


I just came from a District 6 meeting at which the Sumter County Sherriff’s Dept. presented the golf cart citations issued between Aug 11th and Oct 11th. There were 64 citations in all, 9 for Ran Stop Sign, 1 for Possession of Open Container – Driver, and 56 for No Motor Vehicle Registration. The No Motor Vehicle Registration meant that the non-street legal golf cart was operated in excess of 20mph while on public road – path portion or otherwise. The citation requires a court appearance. In general, offenders are required to demonstrate to the judge that repairs have been made to limit the cart’s speed to 20mph and pay court costs of $250. At the judge’s discretion, the several hundred dollar fine is waived.

I went to the safety seminar about the time this thread started. The sheriff's deputies there gave the same statistics. People at the seminar were upset about it just like the people on this forum. The deputies stated that if a golf cart is altered to go more than 20 mph, it is no longer a golf cart, but an lsv. The insurance agent and the golf cart dealership owner there confirmed this and said coverage would be denied for an accident caused by an altered golf cart. We can argue about this on and on, but the facts are very simple to obtain. Instead of insulting one another because we don't agree, why not search for the truth? Here's the number for a local Allstate agent: 352-753-4340. I go by what they say because that is who I insure with. I recommend calling one's own agent and finding out their policy.
__________________

That’s hogwash and you know it.

But wait a minute, come to think of it I guess I can’t blame a person for laying out a little chum to drum up some business. After all, if we follow your advice and the insurance company denies our claim we would need to sue them. And to do that, we would need an attorney, like maybe you, right?

While your advise is completely sound, I'll bet not one of the readers of this thread will do that.

It seems sniping is the preferred method of settling differences. "Don't confuse me with facts," my father always said.

On the first page of Allstate's policy is the following statement:

Conformity To State Statutes
When any policy provision is in conflict with the statutes of the state in which the policy was issued, the provisions are amended to conform to such statutes.

Therefore the policy is ammended to be for a vehicle that is not capable of exceeding 20mph.

Your continuing posts reaffirm the last sentence in my previous post.

Thanks for the reassurance!

Councilor, you asked for evidence and I provided it. Why not focus on the facts instead of trying to invalidate me.

I wonder if the point that "the councilor" is trying to make, exhibiting much pride in doing so, is that most legal contracts prepared by an attorney are not the black and white documents that the clients are led to believe. In fact the gray areas virtually guarantee litigation primarily to the benefit of the lawyers.

Are you familiar with the internet term "Troll?" It refers to someone who posts inflammatory remarks just to get a rise out of others. The more you say, the more insulting they tend to get. I think they receive what Buddy Hackett once called "that fleeting moment of connubial bliss" from this type of exchange.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t always work out either. Two years ago, an Allstate agent in Leesburg was issuing off-road vehicle insurance policies to owners of low speed vehicles that were in fact being registered. How that slipped by the DMV is a mystery to me but once Allstate found out, they put an immediate stop to it. Those LSV’s (which can legally go up to 25mph must now be insured and registered with a standard auto policy to the tune of $500.

I ought to know because I was one of those customers.

and i might add our tomberlins are worth it!!!!!

:popcorn:

Bill :)

No way of knowing, but one wonders what would have happened if you had an accident.

I'm wondering why it's necessary to be so acerbic. Sounds like you think that after YOU post, no one else should dare to voice an opinion.

I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I'm so happy...
 

to have read about altering golf cart speed & the Allstate agent's remark! I only wanted to go 18 MPH instead of 16 MPH, but would rather go slower than to negate my insurance! :agree:

Perhaps another way to look at this is that we all drive golf carts that have been altered to go faster. I think standard golf cart speed is 14 mph or thereabouts. Most of the ones converted and sold in TV have had high speed gears installed and the governors adjusted (or whatever it is they do) to bring the speed up to just under 20mph in order for them to still be in compliance with state law. If they are capable of going faster than that, regardless of whether or not you drive them faster, they are no longer considered to be golf carts, which is why they are governed at just under 20 mph.

I know this won't help convince the naysayers, but for those of us who are just trying to conform with the law, maybe it will help a bit.

To answer your question as to why we use multi mogul paths is simple. We do it to get where we want to go. For example the one along 466. No other reasonable way to get west of Morse Road.

This thread is over 10 months old, hadawayj.

Bill :)

You can access "The Village Voice" here: http://www.thevha.net/Village_Voice/oct2011.pdf. It's part of "The Homeowners Association" web site.

How did this thread get resurrected with this previous post?

I have rented golf carts at the golf cart store downtown and those rental carts are very slow and that is not the drivers fault. To give someone a ticket because he is driving a rental cart which is slow by design would be totally unfair. :ho: