A note from Mrs AJ
 

We had an idea to start bring Z back to the SPCA. Last Friday my wife did just that, here is what happened in her words.

Friday morning I took Z to the Humane Society to see if I could get her “acquainted” with different dogs without any aggressive behavior. I put the muzzle on Z because I didn’t want anyone getting hurt if things did not go well. We first walked with a small, calm dog which she basically ignored. Then came a little beagle who was a very happy little dog. We walk and then sat them together; but Z gave a little bark and so we had them walk together and then went for a third dog.

She is a large pitbull who is not yet a year old but, a sweetheart if there ever was one. She was energetic and wanting to play. So we walk around and they seemed ok, Z barked but only once so we decided they might want to play so we brought them into a paddock and let the pitbull run free and I left the leash on Z and let her go. And to my surprise Z happily started to play and run around with the pitbull. The pitbull was very submissive, laying down in front of Z and then when they were playing, even jumped on top of Z without any signs of aggression from Z. The pitbull was faster and Z soon slowed but they both laid down afterwards. It was a great to see Z being happy and playing with another dog. I will try again hopefully next week.

All Dogs - Humane Society/SPCA of Sumter County, Inc.

Nice story. Also hope it will get some people to look at these pooches.

All Dogs - Humane Society/SPCA of Sumter County, Inc.

Nice story. Also hope it will get some people to look at these pooches.

This is not hard work...
 

Pretty sure we are not doing any hard work :D. 'Improvement' is a hard thing to measure, so I cannot say that yet.

We no longer 'pen' her at night. She has free run of the house. It has become 'pretty' clear she will not eat the cat. She will come right up to it sniffing. If the cat moves, Z jumps backwards with a bark. Clearly the cat rules that relationship.

I still do not have the 'courage' to throw her into the dog park. I keep going, but have yet to see the 'right mix of dogs' there.

We have two human guests visiting us today through Monday, will be good for her to have some new pack members.

Update
 

Well it has been a bit since there has been an update on “Z”. Sorry for the lapse. Sometimes changes are so minute they don’t seem to show at all. It has now been a little over 2 months that “Z” has been with us and she seems to have adjusted well to our home.

Her interaction with our cat is improving. They have been face-to-face with the cat staring at the dog, sometimes the cat will siss which “Z” does not like. Z will back away, cry and then bark. Z still has the desire to chase after her when the cat jumps from the couch to go back into the bedroom. But we have been able to stop her with a “tsh” or at least change the direction of her attention.

She sleeps on her bed every night in the living room instead of sleeping in her kennel. And doesn’t seem to have an interest in sleeping in our bedroom with us. She remains there on her bed until we get up in the morning to begin the day.

She loves going for cart rides and knows just what position she has to be in to enjoy the ride.

She has been going back to the Humane Society to visit on Mondays and some Fridays to get used to having dogs pass by and either play with them or ignore them. This has been semi successful. She has even played with several of the larger dogs a bit.

She has excelled in walking on a leash and healing and is getting better at ignoring the little barking dogs who are tethered at the end of the leashes..

Over the past week we have learned that she is extremely afraid of thunder and lightning, or any loud noise actually. I had to literally drag her from the house tonight to get her to take a walk and then she did not calm down the entire walk. It is going to be a long summer for her with our daily storms. Hopefully we can give her enough calm and balance that she can begin to ignore the storms.

So that is the update for now.

Thank you for the update. Have missed reading about you and Z.

Purchase Z a thunder shirt for the ...well ..thunder. Works great on my dog glad I purchased one.

Oh, please continue to post updates. Just found this thread and read everything you have written out loud so my husband could enjoy as well. We both think you definitely have the art of writing down pat----think you could write a book! Thank you for fostering Z. Have thought about it but we stay on the road a lot now-still traveling but our plan is to provide a forever home eventually to a rescue.

Thank you. Write a book? Lucky if I actually read a book. I am reading "A short guide to a happy dog" which is just about the right size for me... I am a slow reader, so Z may be adopted by the time I finish... :D

I can only take credit or try to defend AJBrown's posts, Mrs. AJ posted the last update. She has been doing wonderful things with Z.

I love this thread. Thanks.

Ms. "Z"
 

Well Ms. Z. has hit a milestone. We would normally put her in her kennel when we go off to play golf to make her feel safe and keep her from doing anything we are not sure she would or would not do. Well we decided to let her be out and on her own in the house while we were out this weekend; except making sure the area where the cat stays was blocked just in case Ms. Z was tempted to visit with the cat. Well we came home and everything was perfect. Ms. Z greeted me at the door, went out to the lawn, came back in, greeted both of us again, and went back to resting comfortably on the floor again. Big leap for her!

Sure you don't want keep her? She sounds like a sweetheart.

What a relief, huh?

I'll never forget the butterflies-in-stomach the first time we left our last golden out of the crate alone, age 1 year. He was lounging on the foyer rug. We said goodbye, rushed to church, skipped social hour, rushed back home.

He was still on the foyer rug.

Please permit me to ramble without purpose...
 

I am not sure I am ready to adopt a dog. Of course if this thread continues for 7 years what is the difference:D? Z is with us to give her a safe place where she gets affection/training and we get to enjoy her company.

Z is a wonderful dog, but not a dog I am used to. I have adopted dogs prior to Z when they are a younger age and have not been subjected to whatever Z has. These dogs and I were on the same page, almost like they spoke English. Z does not seem to learn words/phrases as easy. “Where is Linda”, “get your ball”, etc. Does this make her a bad dog, of course not… in fact kudos to her for standard training, she sits, stays, comes when she is called, etc. When I take her to an open field where we are alone, we work off leash and she is doing pretty good.

I wish to digress about Z to tell the story of my favorite dog. Caly was my smartest dog, if smart is a word that can be attributed to a dog. Casey was the best dog I ever had (sorry Caly). Why was Caly ‘smart’? After training her and spending time with her she seemed to know what I wanted. I could almost make up words on the fly and she would learn them quickly. When we were in MA, I taught her the command ‘yard’. I remember when I first brought her to The Villages and she was off leash in our yard (yeah yeah, sorry about no leash). I was out there with her and as she would approach the neighbor’s yard I would say ‘YARD’ and she would turn back and keep sniffing. I could set her boundaries no matter where we were with the command YARD, pretty neat I thought… another example is she knew the difference between ‘heal’ and ‘with me’. With me simply meant stay close, not the rigidity of heal …

Back to Casey…

We lived in MA, we already owned an adopted shepherd/lab mix from the SPCA. We were pondering getting another dog for reasons I forget, likely silly human reasons like they need a companion. I was at the vet and I saw something on the cork board for a lab (no papers) less than a year old.

I took the number, I called and asked why they were getting rid of the dog. The answer was that when they got the dog it was small and cute, but now it was bigger and starting to pull the couch around. I did not ask for clarification, but had visions in my head of a dog with its mouth on the living room couch pulling it out to the kitchen. Off I went to investigate this couch pulling dog…

What I learned was they kept her on a front enclosed porch with her leash around a PVC couch. I took her outside and there was an immediate connection. This was not an alpha dog, this was the kind of dog people dream of. These ‘people’ had no clue what they had; it was ‘calm submissive’ out of the box. I told them I would take the dog home to be sure it could live with our existing dog.

She had one mark against her. They named her Buffy (sp?), really, Buffy? I could not imagine myself out in the yard yelling Buffy, Buffy, come on girl….

I got her home and the two dogs met in the yard, ran around a bit without issue, so I figured we were good to go. I had never seen any aggression from my existing dog. I went in the house with the dogs and I went to the bathroom and as I am in there I hear a load ferocious growl and a whimper. It was over in a second. I rush out and ‘Buffy’ has a hole in the top of her nose.

I looked at her, stopped the bleeding, and renamed her Casey. If I was not sure I wanted to keep her, I was now. It would be hard to bring her back with a hole on her nose…

This story has no purpose; I share because it is a funny story as to how I found my favorite dog… this dog never needed a leash anywhere, it just followed. Z and I do not have that which is not her fault, but we will keep working…

I love your dog stories, ajbrown. You should give yourself a lot of credit in training, as well as giving credit to your various dogs. Some people just have the knack. We have goldens because they forgive our lack of ability and obey us anyway.:o

Yes, kudos to ajbrown. Thanks for sharing, from the dog lovers who are enjoying your stories.
You have patience and consistency, both requirements of pet owners/trainers who have well-trained dogs. :ho:

This is, without a doubt the best posting thread on TOTV. Was about to give up this site entirely tired of all the garbage and political BS. Then along came the saga of Z. What a breath of fresh air. Easily the most favored thread on the site. Cudos to you for taking time to share it. Hilarious and heart warming

Back to 'Z'
 

Kind words, thank you. Do not let my posts lead you to believe I am a dog trainer. I have read TOTV for years, there are many folks out here better than I.

I am OK at little stuff, e.g., come, heel, stay, etc., but pretty clueless with behavioral issues. I have learned quite a bit by how Cesar is around dogs, the way he stays calm and never gives up until the dog is calm... There are times I feel like I have no idea what to do...

Z's current challenge. Alan must cut her nails. For a 55 pound dog, she is like a slippery pig. I imagine she is, I have never held a slippery pig. If you try to hold her down and touch her nails, she will wriggle, try to get up, slip out from under you. She could be an all-state wrestler, I mean if they had dog wrestling. She is obviously scared of something.

I have never dealt with this. With past dogs, I said lay down, I put a little weight on them, enough so they could not pull away their paws and I 'Dremel'd' their nails. Caly would almost fall asleep. The Dremel was great. I used to use clippers, but no matter how I tried I would cut too much on one of them and then we had a bleeder ...

Z must not trust me enough, or I am not relaxed enough, or she is just too afraid. I can put her on her side and make her stay and pat her, I am working to be able to hold her there using some of my weight. This is progressing well. As soon as I touch a nail, we are back to slippery pig…

In addition I have started to make her stay near me while I touch her nails. Even using my fingernail to simulate a cut noise. This requires me holding her collar so she cannot flee. As we are just starting this whole session lasts a minute or so.

This could be a multi week process and I hope I am up for it.

Will let you know…

When we took in an abandoned 15-year-old golden last year, he had never had his nails cut in the two years his owner dumped him with her parents. It must have been quite painful for him to have nails that long, as he wouldn't let me touch his paws. he would pull his paws away even if you just stroked them. My solution was to have them done professionally by our mobile groomer. It preserved our bonded position (that had taken a while to achieve) because I wasn't doing it. I really didn't care if he bonded with the groomer, as long as his needs were met without harm done to him. And the groomer understood.

I have never felt comfortable with my level of expertise at nail clipping. All our dogs have relied on groomers for that.

I agree. BUT, we found a solution on Amazon 2 months ago. Oster Pet Nail Grinder. It comes with guides you size to your pet. Harry lets my wife do his nails a couple of times a week. No more "click, click, click."


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Great experience AJ. I wonder how we are going to get thru the experience of what looks like a bad situation happening now with our Boxer Barney. The good thing is my wife baby sit's small dogs when people go on vacation so I'll still have them to spoil. I just love these dogs they add so much to our lives. I've followed your story and I love your experience and you probably solved my upcoming problem. Bless you.

I think for $20.00 a vet could cut the nails. We take the cat in for that; it's money well spent.

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AJ, you are a warrior where Z is concerned. Your patience and faithfulness to your task are just wonderful.


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As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we took Z to PAWS a while ago and they could get three cut and gave her back to us :).

I never got the details of why professionals could not get the job done as I was away, maybe my wife did. Basically they could not hold her down.

In the meantime on days my wife volunteers has been taking Z to the SPCA to be with other dogs. Occasionally their vet will cut her nails, so we know it is possible. We think it is because Z is familiar with the vet...

Even if I never can cut her nails, I need to get her calmer so others can.

I didn't know PAWS was an animal hospital, thought it was a groomer. Wish I could offer any other suggestions. Perhaps one at a time when Z is settled down before sleep or just awakening.

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PAWS is our vet for our cat and past dogs, they seem very nice and I assume competent. They were wonderful when Caly was put down. We had them come to the house so she would be comfortable. I could see them tearing up looking at our pain. Seems like a terribly hard job.

Doing this with Z will be 'fun', like trying to learn how to hit a tight draw under the wind... patience and time... and fingers crossed :D

We have fostered 17 dogs ajbrown so I can say with certainty that you are doing a fantastic job. Your patience is outstanding and your logical approach to dealing with issues one at a time is obviously working out very well. The truth is there's always a reason a dog has been handed over to a shelter or into foster care and sometimes the reasons aren't pretty, so for instance her aggression with other dogs may be a lifetime problem but if someone can undo it I'm sure it's you!

Not sure if you know this but the person at Paws who looks after nail trimming is a kind hearted groomer who spends a lot of time trying to ensure that the dogs are not afraid and consequently happy to be groomed again. If your dog shows the panic that you describe I'm quite sure that she would stop the process for the benefit of the dog. That obviously doesn't help with the specific problem of long nails but it might be the reason. The solution that we have found to work is to basically trim one nail, followed by lots of love and treats, and then let it go for a day. Over time we found that this worked, eventually allowing us to trim two nails and then three etc.

Exercise... as I'm sure you know a tired dog is a good dog so finding a place where she can run without difficulty is very important and there aren't many places in the villages where that's possible. Doggie Do Run on 301 has a training section that is completely fenced off and quite large (in length) so you might want to go there and talk to the owner explaining your difficulties and training needs and arrange to use that section by yourself. You would be able to throw balls or even try to start agility training there which would occupy her brain and blow off some energy. It's usually one of the quiet spots in the park and is definitely the area where only one dog is allowed in at a time.

I was delighted to hear that you have trained the dog to be comfortable in a muzzle. It shows great responsibility on your part and undoubtedly protects both of you in the case of fear aggression but did you know that there are soft muscles that have the benefit of not making the dog look ferocious? Sometimes the very look of the cage sets other owners into a fearful mode that can be reflected in the behaviour of their own dogs and a cycle of nastiness can start to happen. The soft muzzles are very effective and sometimes go unseen by other people... just a thought. Aggressiveness may just be part of her baggage though so finding a place where she can run and you can both be happy is pretty important . I know people who go at odd hours to the area behind the polo field specifically for this reason. Maybe that would be helpful for you as well .

One last hint... we have found that new Foster's being trained almost needed a training "outfit" so we have a harness that we put on them when we "mean business". It's not for punishment and it isn't harsh (made of soft material) but it just gets their attention, sort of like a Service Dog putting on their work coat. We have found that the dogs seem to know the difference and stop pulling or feeling panicky... maybe it makes them feel more secure because someone is in charge but for whatever reason, it turns a pulling lunatic into an easy dog to walk and an aggressive dog into one that can pass other dogs without the need to show their dominance. My theory is that it works a bit like a thunder shirt but that's just an opinion. Whatever works!

I can't tell you enough how wonderful you are to put all this time and thought into Z.... I'm sure you will enjoy her for years! :)

AJ, there's a term you need to be familiar with. "Failed foster" Z sounds a lot like my female Border Collie, she is a failed foster. Oh, I found her a home, but the adopters weren't amused when she came in with their cat in her mouth. The cat was fine, but she came back..... and never left again. She's my second failed foster, I 'fostered" the last one for 13 years...... :D

MiaW1948,

17 dogs, holy cow, that is wonderful. Thanks for sharing...

Fostering is odd for sure. When Z meets people, I tell them she is available for adoption.

Then, I find myself thinking about Z and how a bad handler would affect her life or even worse, punish her behavior. Even though Z and I have yet to connect like past dogs, it is hard not to grow fond... time will tell...

She is laying at my feet as I type this...

Have you tried Rescue Remedy for dogs? You can purchase it at the health food store in Spanish Springs shopping center. It's a Bach flower mixture - purely holistic. It seems to take the edge of for a nervous dog. We started using it for our dog during thunder storms. She would get so wound up, shake terribly and pant - a true state of panic. The Rescue Remedy works wonders for her, in fact, it works better than her Thunder Shirt. Now that we have used it several times during a storm, the storms don't affect her as much and many times she is good without it. Maybe Z would benefit from a dose before a nail trim.

Maybe she'll be at your feet for years to come.

I have used a form of Rescue Remedy on our young golden when he had to be transported. It was recommended by our vet. There were different ways to administer it. One type was affixed to his crate during transport, and then, because we were leaving a country setting to live in the middle of a big city, he wore a collar of it around his neck at all times. They last a month. It issued some kind of pheromone that was calming. It was called DAP but I see is now called Adaptil.

I think it worked. He's such a laid-back dog to begin with, it was hard to tell. But at the time he was only two, so a little more rambunctious.

What has happened to Z? We all need to know. Did he get a forever home?

Z is a lucky girl to be spending time with you and your wife. You obviously both love dogs.

More About Z
 

I just got back from a small vacation to Martha’s Vineyard. My husband and Z picked me up at the airport and I was excited to see Z, and my husband of course. She seemed happy to see me but not as excited as my past dogs have been.

When we were on our way back home she did let me pet her and she even gave me a lick or two and then settled in for the ride home.

Back home she seemed a little excited and I petted her and gave her a back massage and chatted with my husband. Since it was close to midnight we decided to hit the sack and to our surprise Z came into the bedroom and went to sleep on the floor beside the bed.

We were unsure what this meant and I was a little apprehensive as the cat sleeps with us and gets on and off the bed several times during the night. And where they are still not 100% comfortable together had me keeping my eyes on any movement. Z slept there for a few hours and then I noticed she got up and went back on her bed in the living room.

All was back to the normal routine the next morning. But I have noticed that Z is now going in my husband’s office to visit a bit more and sometimes even sleeping on the office floor while he works. She is still barking a various dogs, but mostly walks on a loose leash without any problems.

She also seems more comfortable in the house when it thunders outside. She is still a work in progress but little things will hopefully add up to a dog that can lead a happy and normal life.

Sounds like Z is becoming more loving and trusting.
Thanks for the great update.

Actually the only thing I saw in that post was her husband was an after thought when she came home... "I was excited to see Z" :D

The beat goes one...
 

Please share your experiences. I know from reading there are some good handlers out there...

I wish I could tell you that I see great progress. There is an art to helping dogs with behavior issues such as being scared. This experience has taught me one thing, I need to take an art class. I really want to find a place and learn more. I am not sure where to do that, but it is something I will look into during retirement. I still watch Cesar shows, I am blown away by his ability to remain calm, how he takes a dog and just drops it into his pack and uses the pack to tell him about the dog. I would be afraid Z would be eaten as my timing and ability is way off. Like in golf, the word 'afraid' cannot be in a dog handlers vocabulary.

I do see certain progress with things like thunder. There were quite a few storms while our favorite pack member was away. Z would head under the end table in the corner of our living room (Wisteria style home). My approach is to do nothing, I go about my business as if nothing is happening, the whole time hiding the fact that I hate thunderstorms also. During storms, I will occasionally train her; for example, stand in the kitchen and issue the ‘come’ command. It is the one command that once it leaves my lips MUST be obeyed. She is excellent at it normally. On days where it is stormy I may have to say it twice and she comes slower, but she comes, gets praise and a little cookie, then saunters back to the safe end table ;)

Z will still bark at certain dogs. If I am walking her I ‘leash correct’ her to be sure she cannot advance, but I also body correct her. What do I mean, I touch her in the side until her focus changes to me (I do not hurt her), then I make her sit and watch the dog until she relaxes. I do not know if this is perfect, I am no expert.

As my lovely posted, Z now stays in my office while I am working which is nice. Do not forget she is a world class sleeper, so when she is there it is like having a new rug. I have yet to cut a nail on her. I am able to hold her paw and pick at her nails with my nails, this is progress albeit slow. I would like to use a dremel so I can just sand a small bit off, but I know the sound will be an issue. I have an old electric razor, so I have been holding her paw and running the electric razor over her nails and reinforcing the ’stay’ command. I see progress, but have yet to just get in there and cut a nail.

Happy fourth folks, today we may get thunder and fireworks. I know she will be fine…

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but we have a dachshund/beagle that we adopted at age 6 months (she is now 8 months). She is also fiercely lunging and barking (but not snarling) when we encounter another dog, and the bigger the other dog, the worse. We took her to Pet smart for private lessons with Jen (very good). She felt our puppy was responding out of false bravado to cover fear. We started giving her multiple tiny treats every time she encountered another dog. We would do the "watch me" command (distracting her), then pop her a quick chicken treat while saying, "nice friend" (trying to hook up the works with a treat when she encountered another dog). We are starting to see progress on our daily walks. The combination of positive reinforcement when she accesses the "watch me" command, and negative (spraying water into her face while saying "NO") when she is lunging and barking and too crazed to listen, definitely has brought improvement. Maybe worth a try? BTW, Jen did not suggest the water thing, but we found that positive alone wasn't sufficient.