The decline of Christianity

[Golfingnut]

It is happening, but it is not too late to turn it around. This site below is full of factual data that breaks down the statistics of the decline:

FACT: Statistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports)

More important the site below this paragraph is research based information as to WHY this trend is ongoing.

REASON WHY: Why Is Christianity on the Decline in America? – The Gospel Coalition Blog (http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/04/09/why-is-christianity-on-the-decline-in-america/)

Knowing and accepting that it is happening is knowledge. Knowing why is the first step to change our attitude in an effort to reverse the trend. Many actions theists are taking to increase Christianity is the cause of its decline.

Anyway, I am on a quest for knowledge and found these two sites interesting.

[eweissenbach]

Interesting stuff Lou. In addition to the other reasons mentioned in the second article, explaining the loss of church affiliated people, would be what I would describe as "the emporer is wearing no clothes" theory. In the last thirty years or so there have been alarming numbers of clergy who have been involved in very un- Christianlike activities. The seemingly rampant sexual abuse among Catholic priests; the scandals with well known televangelists; the many pastors involved in sexual lliasons with parishioners, often ending in murder or attempted murder; the embezzlement or misuse of church funds; and on and on........ I think many people look at these scandals and ask themselves, "if these are people who purport to have been chosen by God to represent him on earth, how can I trust any of them to tell me the truth about faith and how to live a Godly life"? I have been a Christian my whole life, but I put little faith in the human beings that run organized religion, and rather try to follow Christ's examples of how to live a righteous life.

[Golfingnut]

Yea, I am fighting to identify where I am with this. I am so disillusioned by what I see coming from our church leaders. I do see and I am getting a real warm and fuzzy from this Pope. The widening space between right and left is responsible for many issues surfacing that seem to have no common ground. We need to hear more love, understanding and acceptance from our church leaders and more common ground decisions from our political leaders.

[DDoug]

It's really to bad this is happening for centuries the bible or organized Christianity kept the world for the most a good place to be. But now with man wanting it to be his way it is falling apart. I am speaking of the world it's just going to hell. A lady at work said to me one day that satan is a live and doing fine. The reason I feel the decline is so rapid is the battle of good and evil is soon at hand . Again just my opinion.

[2BNTV]

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiving. Man's place in the Catholic church as GOD's representatives, has been tainted by the few, who have fallen out of grace, by their wrong doings. They ask forgiveness and for the most part, it is given by the masses. Men are human, therefore they are not perfect, and or will always do the right thing by themselves, or the public at large. IMHO

With men this is impossible, with GOD, all things are possible.

[DAWN MARIE]

We've been warned biblically speaking this was going to happen so we shouldn't be surprised. Jesus said "when I return will I even find faith on the earth?"

Paul wrote to Timothy..."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables." 2 Tim 4:3-4

Charles Spurgeon the great preacher from the 1800's said the time would come that instead of the Shepherds shepherding the sheep the clowns will be entertaining the goats. Isn't that what we're seeing today?

There is a famine in this land when it comes to the Word of God. We are literally starving to death. Because of it we have no strength.

[donb9006]

It's really to bad this is happening for centuries the bible or organized Christianity kept the world for the most a good place to be. But now with man wanting it to be his way it is falling apart. I am speaking of the world it's just going to hell. A lady at work said to me one day that satan is a live and doing fine. The reason I feel the decline is so rapid is the battle of good and evil is soon at hand . Again just my opinion.

Are you kidding? Maybe for fellow Christians living in England...

Ask the Native Americans of the Caribbean Islands, of Central and South America, the natives of India, Africa, Australia, Hawaii, etc., about how "good a place" Christians made THEIR lands. I hope you're joking...or woefully lacking in history.

The world has always been going to hell, it's no different now.

Christianity along with most religions are losing influence as more and more questions are being answered through means other than religion. As societies and civilizations learn more, their faith in a deity diminishes.

How many Christians are RINOs, Religious In Name Only? Relativism is the name of the game...over 5000 Christian sects proves that. Picking and choosing what you believe and follow, in my opinion, doesn't cut it. You either go ALL-IN, and follow it ALL...the New and Old Testament, or you don't call yourself a Christian. Jesus was a Jew and followed ALL the Jewish laws...what makes the average Christian think he's exempt?

[DAWN MARIE]

the world has always been going to hell, it's no different now.

How many christians are rinos, religious in name only? Relativism is the name of the game...over 5000 christian sects proves that. Picking and choosing what you believe and follow, in my opinion, doesn't cut it. You either go all-in, and follow it all...the new and old testament, or you don't call yourself a christian. Jesus was a jew and followed all the jewish laws...what makes the average christian think he's exempt?

amen!

[Easyrider]

[QUOTE=DAWN MARIE;809059]We've been warned biblically speaking this was going to happen so we shouldn't be surprised. Jesus said "when I return will I even find faith on the earth?"

Paul wrote to Timothy..."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables." 2 Tim 4:3-4

:agree:


It is one thing to proclaim not to be a believer but to try and disparage and mock those that do as some of these posts do goes beyond all understanding.

Many of those that lived and witnessed the miracles Jesus performed still did not believe so it only fulfilling the scriptures that there would be many now.

If one only has faith in the things they can see or prove scientifically they will never be a Christian for it comes from and through Faith.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Isaiah 5:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

[Carl in Tampa]

The title of the thread is The Decline of Christianity.

The Pew Survey provided as the basis for the discussion does not provide data to support the title of the thread.

First, define terms. Does the term "decline" refer to a change on the numbers of individuals who say they are Christians, or does it refer to a shift in the number of professed Christians who have left the basic tenets or dogmas of their particular denominational choice?

If it is the former, the Pew study gives no basis for demonstrating a decline since there are no numerical changes in membership in the denominations from decade to decade to compare, so the "decline" cannot be demonstrated.

Similarly, if it is the latter, the study still does not give a comparison from decade to decade to establish a demonstration of a decline.

There are a couple of significant quotes in the study. One shows that Christian leaders in the northern half of the globe (North America, Europe) feel that Christianity is in (an undefined) decline, while Christian leaders in the southern half of the globe (South America, sub-Saharan Africa) feel Christianity is expanding.

The study also states that over the past century, the number of Catholics around the globe has more than tripled, from an estimated 291 million in 1910 to nearly 1.1 billion as of 2010. And as the population of the earth has increased the increase in Catholics has increased so that in 1910 Catholics comprised close to 50% of the world Christian population and in 2010 they were still close to 50% of the world Christian population.

Unscientific accounts (not in the study) may "show" that the moral decline in the United States might be considered a "decline" in Christianity, but compared to the debauchery of Rome at the time of the birth of Christianity this would be a hard argument to support. We are not yet feeding Christians to hungry lions in our stadiums.

On April 8, 1966, the cover story of Time magazine was "Is God Dead?" based upon the assertion of German philosopher Nietzsche that "God is Dead." In response, cartoonist Walt Kelly, creator of the Pogo possum comic strip, published a single panel filling the full length of the strip, showing a slogan chiseled on a mountainside saying, "GOD IS NOT DEAD --- He is merely unemployed."

This summarizes claims regarding the "decline" of Christianity.

God is in control. The numbers of people professing to be Christians and their behavior and beliefs is in His hands. I'll leave it to Him.

Christianity is personal. "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

.

[Bonanza]

Interesting stuff Lou. In addition to the other reasons mentioned in the second article, explaining the loss of church affiliated people, would be what I would describe as "the emporer is wearing no clothes" theory. In the last thirty years or so there have been alarming numbers of clergy who have been involved in very un- Christianlike activities. The seemingly rampant sexual abuse among Catholic priests; the scandals with well known televangelists; the many pastors involved in sexual lliasons with parishioners, often ending in murder or attempted murder; the embezzlement or misuse of church funds; and on and on........ I think many people look at these scandals and ask themselves, "if these are people who purport to have been chosen by God to represent him on earth, how can I trust any of them to tell me the truth about faith and how to live a Godly life"? I have been a Christian my whole life, but I put little faith in the human beings that run organized religion, and rather try to follow Christ's examples of how to live a righteous life.



Well said, Ed. Your comment is well taken but I think it goes beyond Christianity to all religions. Look at some of these houses of worship throughout the country. Who are they trying to outdo or impress? There are no real estate taxes that they pay and many of them put the Taj Mahal to shame.

The real bottom line is no matter how much someone professes to be a good Christian or anything else, religion has caused more problems in this world than anything else. Yes -- more than anything! Just look what's going on and has been going on throughout history. Sad, but true.

[Polar Bear]

...religion has caused more problems in this world than anything else. Yes -- more than anything! Just look what's going on and has been going on throughout history. Sad, but true.

Such a vague generalization. You could make a similar statement that religion has caused more good in this world than anything else.

My own opinion is that likely neither is true. But both are so unquantifiable, who knows.

[onslowe]

The title of the thread is The Decline of Christianity.

The Pew Survey provided as the basis for the discussion does not provide data to support the title of the thread.

First, define terms. Does the term "decline" refer to a change on the numbers of individuals who say they are Christians, or does it refer to a shift in the number of professed Christians who have left the basic tenets or dogmas of their particular denominational choice?

If it is the former, the Pew study gives no basis for demonstrating a decline since there are no numerical changes in membership in the denominations from decade to decade to compare, so the "decline" cannot be demonstrated.

Similarly, if it is the latter, the study still does not give a comparison from decade to decade to establish a demonstration of a decline.

There are a couple of significant quotes in the study. One shows that Christian leaders in the northern half of the globe (North America, Europe) feel that Christianity is in (an undefined) decline, while Christian leaders in the southern half of the globe (South America, sub-Saharan Africa) feel Christianity is expanding.

The study also states that over the past century, the number of Catholics around the globe has more than tripled, from an estimated 291 million in 1910 to nearly 1.1 billion as of 2010. And as the population of the earth has increased the increase in Catholics has increased so that in 1910 Catholics comprised close to 50% of the world Christian population and in 2010 they were still close to 50% of the world Christian population.

Unscientific accounts (not in the study) may "show" that the moral decline in the United States might be considered a "decline" in Christianity, but compared to the debauchery of Rome at the time of the birth of Christianity this would be a hard argument to support. We are not yet feeding Christians to hungry lions in our stadiums.

On April 8, 1966, the cover story of Time magazine was "Is God Dead?" based upon the assertion of German philosopher Nietzsche that "God is Dead." In response, cartoonist Walt Kelly, creator of the Pogo possum comic strip, published a single panel filling the full length of the strip, showing a slogan chiseled on a mountainside saying, "GOD IS NOT DEAD --- He is merely unemployed."

This summarizes claims regarding the "decline" of Christianity.

God is in control. The numbers of people professing to be Christians and their behavior and beliefs is in His hands. I'll leave it to Him.

Christianity is personal. "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

.

Incisive and well done, Carl. Thank you for your post.

[waynet]

I think it is more a distrust of any organized religion than a disbelief in God. I agree with Bonanza that organized religions have caused far more problems than solutions.

[DAWN MARIE]

There are a couple of significant quotes in the study. One shows that Christian leaders in the northern half of the globe (North America, Europe) feel that Christianity is in (an undefined) decline, while Christian leaders in the southern half of the globe (South America, sub-Saharan Africa) feel Christianity is expanding.

Unscientific accounts (not in the study) may "show" that the moral decline in the United States might be considered a "decline" in Christianity, but compared to the debauchery of Rome at the time of the birth of Christianity this would be a hard argument to support. We are not yet feeding Christians to hungry lions in our stadiums.



.

I recently went to a Bible Conf in CA. The Conf was called "Strange Fire" (www.strangefire.org) and one of the speakers was a Pastor from Africa. He said when you hear about the "Christianization" of Africa DO NOT BELIEVE IT. It's some sort of pseudo Christianity, based on feelings and emotions and NOT on established historical doctrine taken straight from Scripture. This again, goes back to what we've been warned about. It's history repeating itself over again. The longer we wait for the return (think of Moses on Mt Sinai as well) the worse we are becoming.

As far as comparing ourselves to Rome and the debauchery of Roman culture I don't think we have to go very far to see we are practically there. Just read the news. Also, we are killing unborn babies in the womb and the sanctity of life in general isn't what it used to be. Think how far we've fallen since the Puritan days here in our own country. We are continuing the slide downward. Why? Because we have lost faith and the desire to wait for our leader to come back.

[DAWN MARIE]

I think it is more a distrust of any organized religion than a disbelief in God. I agree with Bonanza that organized religions have caused far more problems than solutions.

yes, and the leaders behind them will have to answer. In the meantime we are instructed to NOT abandon the meeting together. We just hunt harder for a good bible believing church. It's not easy but there are some out there who are still faithful to God's Word. They would be called the remnant.

[Carl in Tampa]

I recently went to a Bible Conf in CA. The Conf was called "Strange Fire" (www.strangefire.org) and one of the speakers was a Pastor from Africa. He said when you hear about the "Christianization" of Africa DO NOT BELIEVE IT. It's some sort of pseudo Christianity, based on feelings and emotions and NOT on established historical doctrine taken straight from Scripture. This again, goes back to what we've been warned about. It's history repeating itself over again. The longer we wait for the return (think of Moses on Mt Sinai as well) the worse we are becoming.

As far as comparing ourselves to Rome and the debauchery of Roman culture I don't think we have to go very far to see we are practically there. Just read the news. Also, we are killing unborn babies in the womb and the sanctity of life in general isn't what it used to be. Think how far we've fallen since the Puritan days here in our own country. We are continuing the slide downward. Why? Because we have lost faith and the desire to wait for our leader to come back.

I read the transcript of Conrad Mbewe's address at the Strange Fire conference, and I did not understand him to say that there was no Christianization of Africa, but rather that there was a competition between traditional Christianity and charismatic Christianity, similar to what the United States experienced a few decades ago.

He was speaking at an anti-charismatic Christianity conference sponsored by Dr. John MacArthur, one of my favorite Bible teachers. (While Dr. MacArthur was visiting my church, he tripped over my outstretched legs and almost fell. I joked with him that if he were injured by tripping over me, I would likely be run out of the church.)

The Pew Study which was the basis for the start of this discussion made no distinction regarding the charismatic movement within the various Christian traditions. There have been charismatics within all of the major denominations, including the Catholics and the Protestant movements.

The dispute between theologians in the United States over the validity of charismatics seeking the "gifts of the spirit" such as speaking in tongues, and those who believe that the granting of such gifts ended in Apostolic times continues to the present, as witnessed by the Strange Fire conference.

I don't see it as a quantifiable factor in the discussion of the alleged "Decline of Christianity" which was the subject of this thread.

.

[Easyrider]

As far as comparing ourselves to Rome and the debauchery of Roman culture I don't think we have to go very far to see we are practically there. Just read the news. Also, we are killing unborn babies in the womb and the sanctity of life in general isn't what it used to be. Think how far we've fallen since the Puritan days here in our own country. We are continuing the slide downward. Why? Because we have lost faith and the desire to wait for our leader to come back.

We're just getting used to the dark...a little bit at a time.

[DAWN MARIE]

Carl,

Conrad spoke more than once. Did you read all of his transcripts? I remember him saying distinctly not to believe it when we hear about the spread of Christianity in Africa. If I'm correct he said clearly "do not believe it." But yes he also spoke about the competition between one and another as well.

Now I totally understand that to many out there that there is no difference between one movement and another in the so called Christian movement.

I love, love, love John MacArthur. I believe him to be the best expositional preacher since Spurgeon maybe ever!!! We have a beautiful picture of my husband (also a Pastor) and John together. We actually just got it framed for Christmas. Not too many around here know who he is. There were 4,000 people at the conference and I was amazed at his generosity and hospitality to all in the day and age when you see money hungry preachers stealing from their congregations.

[DAWN MARIE]

We're just getting used to the dark...a little bit at a time.

I'm having a real hard time getting used to it. I don't like the dark.

[Carl in Tampa]

As far as comparing ourselves to Rome and the debauchery of Roman culture I don't think we have to go very far to see we are practically there. Just read the news. Also, we are killing unborn babies in the womb and the sanctity of life in general isn't what it used to be. Think how far we've fallen since the Puritan days here in our own country. We are continuing the slide downward. Why? Because we have lost faith and the desire to wait for our leader to come back.

First, I abhor abortion and think you make a good point.

However, your reference to how far we've fallen since the Puritan days ignores certain facts in our history. The Puritans arrived in the New England area in 1620. Prior to that time the Jamestown, VA, colony was established in 1607. In 1619 the captain of a Dutch slaver ship exchanged his cargo of African slaves for food at the Jamestown colony. So you see the institution of slavery in our country predates even the Puritans.

And, as more European settlers came to America and the westward expansion developed, the settlers killed native Americans nearly to the point of extinction. Those who survived were relegated to "reservations" where they were neglected and exploited.

Both slave owners and Indian fighters claimed to be Christians, and in fact there was denial by many Christians that the African slaves were actually human beings.

The Civil War began for economic reasons but escalated to become a war to free the slaves. Christians, notably Quakers, were leaders in the abolition movement.

Indians are no longer restricted to reservations. In areas such as Oklahoma and Washington State many tribes participate in great financial wealth that comes from their land. Other tribes are permitted to operate and gain wealth from casinos that non-Indians are prohibited from operating.

In that perspective our culture has not declined, but has improved. No one can argue that an era of non-slavery is not superior to an era of slavery.

This has been more about American history than the alleged decline of Christianity, but the point is that the time of the Puritans was not a golden age to which we should compare modern times.

.

[Carl in Tampa]

Carl,

Conrad spoke more than once. Did you read all of his transcripts? I remember him saying distinctly not to believe it when we hear about the spread of Christianity in Africa. If I'm correct he said clearly "do not believe it." But yes he also spoke about the competition between one and another as well.

Now I totally understand that to many out there that there is no difference between one movement and another in the so called Christian movement.

I love, love, love John MacArthur. I believe him to be the best expositional preacher since Spurgeon maybe ever!!! We have a beautiful picture of my husband (also a Pastor) and John together. We actually just got it framed for Christmas. Not too many around here know who he is. There were 4,000 people at the conference and I was amazed at his generosity and hospitality to all in the day and age when you see money hungry preachers stealing from their congregations.

Conrad spoke twice. I read the first transcript more thoroughly than the second. My understanding is that since he does not consider charismatic Christianity to be "true" Christianity, then he does not consider the spread of charismatics to be a legitimate measure of Christianity in Africa. Since the Pew study made no distinction that would sort out charismatics, I found it hard to justify a reference to the "decline" of Christianity.

It's a shame that there isn't a local radio station that broadcasts MacArthur's programs.

By the way, the web site link you posted for the Strange Fire conference didn't work. I found it at Media (http://www.tmstrangefire.org) . You can go there and read the transcripts or actually play the videos.

Regards,

Carl

.

[onslowe]

Some thoughts I want to share especially after reading the many sincere great posts above.

Nothing I can say is either new, earth shattering, nor mine. I've had a rough faith journey and the pendulum of my little life has swung to and fro.

My salvation is not dependent upon brick and mortar churches. Yes, I believe the Christian church which has passed on the faith once received is divine in its non-corporeal sense. However, the ways in which we imperfect and flawed humans have handled our stewardship of the Church is, well, human and not at all praiseworthy. The Roman Catholic church for years harbored low life predatory perverts and moved them from parish to parish because the bishops either didn't care for the flocks or because "We need more priests for the Church, not less." The institution, or "religion" in that sense trumped the essence of faith and morals.

Other ministers have robbed from good honest people and have lived deeply offensive, anti-Christian lives. Charlatans and hypocrites going against the faith and morals once received.

So many mainline Protestant churches have chosen to collapse the First great commandment "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind." Now it's all about the second and seemingly only great commandment "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." The second allows the annoying, non trendy, and certainly antiquated Bible strictures to be placed aside. All sorts of new 'theologies' and rites are being shoved at the faithful in the pews.

Examples are all over the place. Solutions are beyond my pay grade I've learned.

People vote with their feet for sure, and that I think affects the institutional religions. My faith is mine, and doesn't depend upon pervert priests, arrogant bishops, agenda driven 'inclusionists,' nor Hollywood, Howard Stern or any of the other usual suspects.

History has had its ups and downs, but it has had its 'ups.' The dark is temporary if it's real at all. There will always be the science driven skeptics and nihilists. There will also always be the Billy Grahams, the Mother Teresas, Dietrich Bonhoeffers, and on and on.

God will decide when the 'end time' is and still hasn't included me in the memo distribution. :)

I will continue to try to be a Christian, and yes, go to my church, and pray and keep in mind Psalm 46……"Be still, and know that I am God."

Thanks for letting me go on and on, but I needed to say these things.

[rubicon]

I believe it is a mistake in many cases to go back in time and judge people based on what we know now.

Not too long ago America was fighting Germany and Japan. I recall the war propaganda being displayed on my movie theatre screen Tokyo Joe, etc

I believe it is not a mistake to speak up and tell church elders that hiding sexual abuse is wrong and all those involved or covering for those involved should be booted out of their church.

I also believe that one does not need statistics to recognize that fewer and fewer people remain within a church especially as their wealth grows and unless their is a life altering event they may never return.

I believe around the world and in this country Christians are being physically and/or psychologically /legally/administratively attack . in that we have lost the intent of those Pilgrims who ventured here to be free to practice their faith in the manner of their choosing

I chose to stay general with my comments because the only issue I have here is that I believe there are certain factions within our democracy who would go to any length to change this country to be godless

[eweissenbach]

I go to church, though I don't think it a requirement to be a "good" Christian. I worship God and Jesus the Christ, but do not worship any clergyman or woman, and certainly do not worship a church or a denomination. I have settled on ELCA Lutheran because it is a very inclusive and non-judgemental denomination, and the worship services tend to be positive and uplifting. Not every church I have attended over the years fit those criteria, but I will not elaborate. I agree with some that in some cases churches, denominations, religions and sects can be very devisive, very judgemental, very insular, and very hostile to anyone who believes differently than themselves, and have caused much trouble in the world over the years. I once belonged to a small church whose hierarchy began to attempt to push a specific political agenda. I resigned and let them know exactly why I did so. I think that it is up to God to judge, not humans, and I will leave it up to him/her to do so with some confidence.

[kansasr]

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

[Carl in Tampa]

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

Gandhi failed to distinguish between Christians, who are made in the image of God, and Jesus Christ, who was God.

Gandhi was also more of a political activist than a theologian.

[DAWN MARIE]

Conrad spoke twice. I read the first transcript more thoroughly than the second. My understanding is that since he does not consider charismatic Christianity to be "true" Christianity, then he does not consider the spread of charismatics to be a legitimate measure of Christianity in Africa. Since the Pew study made no distinction that would sort out charismatics, I found it hard to justify a reference to the "decline" of Christianity.

It's a shame that there isn't a local radio station that broadcasts MacArthur's programs.

By the way, the web site link you posted for the Strange Fire conference didn't work. I found it at Media (http://www.tmstrangefire.org) . You can go there and read the transcripts or actually play the videos.

.

Your understanding is correct and you're right... the link didn't work for me either. It was the right link at one point. I didn't read the transcripts because I was there, and I took good notes. So I don't usually go back and read them later. You should really watch the videos. And the guy that amazed me the most besides MacArthur and Joni was a man named Justin Peters. He's coming here to Belleview on the 19-21 to speak. If you're in the area I would greatly encourage you to hear him. He was amazing. His masters and Ph'd is on the Charismatic subject matter. His thesis was on Bennie Hinn. I think he's up and coming. Young guy working closely with MacArthur's organization.

Moody radio plays MacArthur at 7 PM last I knew here in Florida.

[DAWN MARIE]

History has had its ups and downs, but it has had its 'ups.' The dark is temporary if it's real at all.

God will decide when the 'end time' is and still hasn't included me in the memo distribution. :)

I will continue to try to be a Christian, and yes, go to my church, and pray and keep in mind Psalm 46……"Be still, and know that I am God."

Thanks for letting me go on and on, but I needed to say these things.

Thanks for saying them. But I have to say the dark is not temporary nor is it new. Satan is called the Prince of Darkness in Scripture. Christ spoke about working while the light was still with them because soon the light would be taken out of the world. He is that light. He told us to be lights in a dark world. There's no question this world is spiritually dark and is increasingly getting darker with less willing to be light carriers.

I believe it is a mistake in many cases to go back in time and judge people based on what we know now.

I also believe that one does not need statistics to recognize that fewer and fewer people remain within a church especially as their wealth grows and unless their is a life altering event they may never return.

I believe around the world and in this country Christians are being physically and/or psychologically /legally/administratively attack .



I agree with all of this...actually Fox News just put this out tonight:

"Deaths of Christians at the hands of persecutors is up worldwide. Some 2,123 Christians were killed last year due to their faith, compared to 1,201 in 2012, according to research. More than half of those reported killings occurred in Syria, followed by Nigeria and Pakistan." http://tinyurl.com/mo2hsl2

[ilovetv]

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Teaching of the Bible in a relevant and applicable way to take home and apply in everyday contemporary life (not a wandering, off-the-cuff theology/theory lesson) is what people are hungry for all their lives (without actually pinpointing that need), and finally many are finding it in Scripture-teaching churches where God's Spirit is trusted to interpret and empower His Word every time it is read and proclaimed. God's Word never fails:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
--Isaiah 55:11 (NASB)

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/)

[RayinPenn]

When I read Lou's original comments I couldn't help but think about my religious journey. My Mom was very much a Roman Catholic until the day she passed. My Dad not so much.. (There is something about Irish men and the church). As a single fellow I was not much of a church goer... I married a similarly minded lutheran girl we would attend lutheran services occasionally and I would go to Saturday evening Catholic Mass with a friend. When my daughter and son were born we became more active in the lutheran church. Both of my kids are confirmed and go off to lutheran work camp each year and participate in lutheran activities.

As time has passed I have drifted away more and more from the Catholic Church. Too many scandals cover-ups and unchristian-like behavior I am ashamed of the hypocrisy. Our first married Lutheran Pastor in Penn was I highly educated 'hell fire and damnation preacher' I did find him over the top but I thought at least no scandals... A few years later he retired and a nice couple were selected and took over the ministry church (Some in the selection committee even said "God told me to select them") ... Then one day the He in the couple was gone - another nasty scandal. She remains and is a lovely person but I couldn't help but shake my head and question it all. We still attend occasionally and continue support the church's good works.

In the end my thinking is that we all are imperfect beings - Living a spiritual christian-like life is what is important... I want to close my eyes for the last time thinking I did my best and here are my good deeds.

Organized religion...err not so much.

[rubicon]

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

kansasr: Gandhi was the subject in a book excerpted by the Wall Street journal about a year or so ago. It was not exactly flattering . Having said that I agree with Gandhi's quote here because it centers on what is wrong with any organized religion that being humans self inflicted failures egos and struggle for power within an organization

Pope Francis sees this and support him in his efforts to break this power block. I do believe however that he needs a primer on capitalism

[DAWN MARIE]

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Teaching of the Bible in a relevant and applicable way to take home and apply in everyday contemporary life (not a wandering, off-the-cuff theology/theory lesson) is what people are hungry for all their lives (without actually pinpointing that need), and finally many are finding it in Scripture-teaching churches where God's Spirit is trusted to interpret and empower His Word every time it is read and proclaimed. God's Word never fails:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
--Isaiah 55:11 (NASB)

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/)

THANKS! Good stuff here. Love all the Pastors you mentioned! Check out Justin Peters who works with MacArthur when you get a chance.

[Carl in Tampa]

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/)

Thanks for the information on the link. There is a Christian radio station in Tampa that plays the pastors you list above as well as Ravi Zacharias, David Jeremiah and several others. I miss it.

Speaking of Moody Church, Theologian Dr. Paul Enns, author of The Moody Handbook of Theology (and many others) lives in Tampa and is a friend of mine. After the unexpected passing of his wife he began a study on Heaven and wrote a book which I recommend. Heaven Revealed: What Is It Like? What Will We Do?... And 11 Other Things You've Wondered About is the name of the book.

My favorite book on the subject of Heaven is Heaven by Randy Alcorn. He gives scriptural references for everything he describes about Heaven, AND he assures us that WE WILL HAVE PETS IN HEAVEN. Worth the read.

:pray:

[DAWN MARIE]

My favorite book on the subject of Heaven is Heaven by Randy Alcorn. He gives scriptural references for everything he describes about Heaven, AND he assures us that WE WILL HAVE PETS IN HEAVEN. Worth the read.

:pray:

I've got this book. I've read maybe half of it. It's probably the best book on heaven out there. After those bogus heaven books hit the best seller lists I told a friend who was being sucked into all that stuff the truth and he got mad at me. Very mad. He wrote to Randy Alcorn who gave my friend the same advice (exactly) and the same scripture references I did. It was a hoot because up until that point I was not even familiar with Alcorn and did not have his book. I got it afterwards. Now, my friend (who is in his 70's) emails me all the time when he has questions about theology.

Sounds like we are definitely on the same page... :smiley:

[Carl in Tampa]

Sounds like we are definitely on the same page... :smiley:

Figuratively and literally.

:wave:

[Golfingnut]

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife. :angel:

[DAWN MARIE]

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife. :angel:

I see many contradictions with your post. You say you want to take the good Christian values on without God who instructed us to follow them? But yet you say you will NOT turn the other cheek when the opportunity arises? So basically you're saying some of the Christian teaching is ok but not all? How does this fit with your all or none personality? I'm kind of confused. :undecided:

Your whole post here is confusing and I could argue easily each of your points. The OT did not morph into the Christian faith. The whole OT and NT are a consistent statement. The OT is revealed the NT and the NT is hidden in the OT. Quite amazing really. Another way of putting it is..the OT is like a shadow and the NT is the Body manifested out of that shadow.

No... Jesus is a historical figure that has been verified by many witnesses and the Koran and the Bible contradict each other so they cannot both be on the same path to heaven. They can both be wrong..but there's no way they can both be right.

[rubicon]

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife. :angel:

perhaps my observation is incorrect but I detect a tone of not asking but actually telling people how you feel.

I said it in another post on another thread blind faith requires one come to God (Jesus Christ) as a child. Some people simply cannot relinquish such control. I truly envy people who have blind faith because such a surrender seems to empower them more than those who cannot relinquish such control

Perhaps its all imaginary but to quote "If God did not exist then man would have had to invent him"

God (Jesus Christ) real or inventive is a good thing because man has to believe in something greater than himself or his inventions. godless men commit atrocious acts because one or more of the seven sins over take them. Men who claim to do God's work, but do evil, cannot actually believe because if they did they could not and as such are deceivers

I am by nature a naturalist who believes in intelligent design but cannot determine its origins but there is organization and collaboration to this universe as is evidenced all around us and as the commercial says, ïts not nice to fool mother nature" Abortion is one of those meddling and it has had a pronounced effect on our population which ages quickly with a loss of a younger generation to take up the mantle

[Golfingnut]

I see many contradictions with your post. You say you want to take the good Christian values on without God who instructed us to follow them? But yet you say you will NOT turn the other cheek when the opportunity arises? So basically you're saying some of the Christian teaching is ok but not all? How does this fit with your all or none personality? I'm kind of confused. :undecided:

Your whole post here is confusing and I could argue easily each of your points. The OT did not morph into the Christian faith. The whole OT and NT are a consistent statement. The OT is revealed the NT and the NT is hidden in the OT. Quite amazing really. Another way of putting it is..the OT is like a shadow and the NT is the Body manifested out of that shadow.

No... Jesus is a historical figure that has been verified by many witnesses and the Koran and the Bible contradict each other so they cannot both be on the same path to heaven. They can both be wrong..but there's no way they can both be right.

Sorry, but you need to read my post again I never said the OT morphed into the NT. I said many Jews morphed into Christians.
You did not get my meaning correct on anything you referenced from my post. You did make the intent of my post. That being no kind understanding, just fault with the opinions of others.

[Golfingnut]

perhaps my observation is incorrect but I detect a tone of not asking but actually telling people how you feel.

I said it in another post on another thread blind faith requires one come to God (Jesus Christ) as a child. Some people simply cannot relinquish such control. I truly envy people who have blind faith because such a surrender seems to empower them more than those who cannot relinquish such control

Perhaps its all imaginary but to quote "If God did not exist then man would have had to invent him"

God (Jesus Christ) real or inventive is a good thing because man has to believe in something greater than himself or his inventions. godless men commit atrocious acts because one or more of the seven sins over take them. Men who claim to do God's work, but do evil, cannot actually believe because if they did they could not and as such are deceivers

I am by nature a naturalist who believes in intelligent design but cannot determine its origins but there is organization and collaboration to this universe as is evidenced all around us and as the commercial says, ïts not nice to fool mother nature" Abortion is one of those meddling and it has had a pronounced effect on our population which ages quickly with a loss of a younger generation to take up the mantle
You have a history of interpreting my posts with meaning entirely different from what I say. Perhaps just ask me to clarify and I will do so promptly and as clearly as I am able.

[Abby10]

Great discussion on here and some good information - thank you Carl and Dawn Marie - I too enjoy listening to many of the Christian speakers that you mentioned. Golfingnut, sometimes you confuse me too. You seem kind of combative in your questioning but I have to believe that you are truly seeking answers for yourself. I say that because looking back, I probably appeared that way to others before becoming a believer myself 20 years ago. You all have a local Community Bible Study (CBS) at New Covenant United Methodist Church in The Villages. It is not affiliated with the church, or with any church for that matter, it just uses the facilities. Unfortunately, I think there is only a women's group meeting there now, but the organization does have men's groups (I believe there is one in Ocala). It is an in depth bible study open to anyone - all ages, all denominations, believers and unbelievers, at any level of knowledge. When I started attending a study years ago, I had very little knowledge of the Bible. If interested, check out the organization at their website - communitybiblestudy.org

[Abby10]

In rereading my previous post, I feel like it reads like an advertisement, but what I was trying to say, Golfingnut, if you really are interested in learning more and in engaging in some great discussion, check out the Community Bible Study group. Not only did I learn a lot, I gained some wonderful life long friends.:smiley:

[Carl in Tampa]

I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife. :angel:


Judaism, Christianity and Islam are generally referred to as the three principal monotheistic faiths, all having their roots in the Biblical figure Abraham.

The precepts of each are mutually exclusive; that is to say that they would each reject your proposal that either of the other two provides the path to Heaven. Put in plain language, this is not a buffet; you must choose one of the three and reject the other two.

The only exception that I can think of to this is that there are many Christian theologians who teach that God does have a separate plan for religiously observant Jews who practice the Law --- that would be the minority of all Jews.

It is unlikely that an exchange of views on a web site is going to provide answers to the questions that you have. You might want to consider making an appointment with a minister in a local church for a private meeting. Also, I believe someone has recommended the book Mere Christianity to you. You might read that and see what your reaction is.

Keep seeking.

.

[DAWN MARIE]

another good book is "Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. That would be a good book for Golfingnut to check out.

Abby another good bible study in the Villages is in Lady Lake and is attended by people from all denominations. It's run by Marv Rosenthal who comes in from Winter Garden. He's the one who built the Holy Land Experience in Orlando but sold it a number of years ago. I've been going there about 5 years now and believe it's the best in The Villages. It's at the 1st Baptist Church in Lady Lake at the intersection of 466 and Rolling Acres near the VFW.

[Carl in Tampa]

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy?

I just want to put "an eye for an eye" in perspective. This rule appears in a section of Exodus dealing with Laws. It establishes a rule of proportionality for the punishment for offenses. Without this law it could be that an offender would be punished (injured) far in excess of the injury he had inflicted. So, "an eye for an eye" was a softening of the earlier practice.

When Jesus addressed this issue in The Sermon on The Mount he was discussing a variety of interpersonal relationships. He said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." This exchanged proportionality for love of one's neighbor.

You do not have the option to return to the earlier, outdated, rule and still be within the Christian faith.

And you are correct, at the close of the Apostolic Age (the death of the last of the twelve Apostles -- and Paul) the Bible was completed. The Bible is complete and unchanging.

There have been many great theologians throughout history who have added enlightenment and understanding to scriptural passages, and archaeology sometimes sheds light on scripture, but there are to be no additions to the Bible.

For ease of reading you might want to consider a Bible translation other than the King James Version which contains much language from the English language structure of 1611 A.D. Dr. Paul Enns, author of The Moody Handbook of Theology, recommends The New American Standard Version as a very good translation.

.

[rubicon]

You have a history of interpreting my posts with meaning entirely different from what I say. Perhaps just ask me to clarify and I will do so promptly and as clearly as I am able.

Perhaps you are correct or perhaps it is because your posts come across as rhetorical questions. My intent is not to attack or to mis-represent but that is my reading. sorry if you were offended

[onslowe]

Golfingnut, it seems to me that you are facing an impasse here. Your struggle with issues of faith, belief, nature of the Bible (OT and NT) etc are wonderful. They may well form the basis of a strong faith.

However, for now, it does seem that the 'apples and oranges' problem has arisen. I had a long struggle in my faith journey…a really long one. I found the comments and opinions of others really didn't do it in my search for answers. I now could assert to you my deep tenets of faith and they probably would not satisfy you. The good people here who are posting back and forth with you have strongly held positions of faith - exactly like me. But I know I am not a theologian, and even if I were, it wouldn't mean much.

Someone once said "Nothing is said that hasn't been said before." I believe that, and I place great value and weight on the words of tradition - right up to the present. Your questions, your doubts and such all have been voiced and felt before by millions of other people, and some have given us their own insights and wisdom and conclusions. They spoke and speak the language you speak, unlike me for sure.

I sure hope that you do pick up CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and as another man mentioned, even more so, his "Screwtape Letters." Maybe go to a library and pick up the Oxford Annotated Bible just for its valuable Introduction and commentaries before each Book.

Read and read and read others thoughts if you are sincerely on a quest. Four or five posters here on TOTV cannot ever approach the wisdom of the ages. It's there for you. I respectfully suggest reading Psalm 131 several times and reflect on it. It 'right sizes' my swollen head every time.

God bless you and keep on plugging.

[onslowe]

Carl, I didn't see your post above before I posted my own directly above. Sorry. You said it all and said it well.

[eweissenbach]

The precepts of each are mutually exclusive; that is to say that they would each reject your proposal that either of the other two provides the path to Heaven. Put in plain language, this is not a buffet; you must choose one of the three and reject the other two.

The only exception that I can think of to this is that there are many Christian theologians who teach that God does have a separate plan for religiously observant Jews who practice the Law --- that would be the minority of all Jews.

.

I personally reject any theology that is exclusionary. I have a good friend who is Muslim, is married to a Lutheran, and brings up his children to respect both religions and their traditions. He is a good man and lives an exemplary life, I personally can't accept that God would deny him the kingdom of heaven because he practices a religion other than Christianity. I also choose to believe that most Jews who live good lives will be accepted into heaven. I also believe that the God I believe in would accept children that die before being Christened, and people in areas where they have no knowledge of organized religion. If that is in conflict with traditional religious theology, then so be it, I hope I am the one who is right. If the Muslims are right, we have been living in fantasyland. I cannot reconcile the concept that God created the earth and everything on it, yet blesses only a relative minority of the people on it

[Golfingnut]

Perhaps you are correct or perhaps it is because your posts come across as rhetorical questions. My intent is not to attack or to mis-represent but that is my reading. sorry if you were offended

So sorry if you thought I felt your post offended me or was attacking in nature. I only wanted to point out that you were mistaken in your interpretation of my post. I was not offended, but did feel obligated to let you know that you misunderstood the intention of my post. I appoligize if my earlier post offended you.

[Golfingnut]

Great discussion on here and some good information - thank you Carl and Dawn Marie - I too enjoy listening to many of the Christian speakers that you mentioned. Golfingnut, sometimes you confuse me too. You seem kind of combative in your questioning but I have to believe that you are truly seeking answers for yourself. I say that because looking back, I probably appeared that way to others before becoming a believer myself 20 years ago. You all have a local Community Bible Study (CBS) at New Covenant United Methodist Church in The Villages. It is not affiliated with the church, or with any church for that matter, it just uses the facilities. Unfortunately, I think there is only a women's group meeting there now, but the organization does have men's groups (I believe there is one in Ocala). It is an in depth bible study open to anyone - all ages, all denominations, believers and unbelievers, at any level of knowledge. When I started attending a study years ago, I had very little knowledge of the Bible. If interested, check out the organization at their website - communitybiblestudy.org

Thanks and I will look into the bible studies they offer. I would prefer a mixed group as I see MEN ONLY as demeaning to women as would be whites only etc.

[Carl in Tampa]

Carl, I didn't see your post above before I posted my own directly above. Sorry. You said it all and said it well.

I don't think we conflicted. Your post was very insightful. We are pretty much on the same page.

Carl

[DAWN MARIE]

Of course, I'm a woman and I don't see anything demeaning about a men's study at all. I've been to women only studies and mixed groups. Both have their place. Men's studies may gear more towards men's issues as a woman's study would towards women's issues. Nothing wrong with that.

The most important thing is that they are in Scripture. Some groups out there are only into the social aspect of meeting together with very little real teaching. The best studies go in deep and leave you thinking hard in the days after.

[Golfingnut]

Of course, I'm a woman and I don't see anything demeaning about a men's study at all. I've been to women only studies and mixed groups. Both have their place. Men's studies may gear more towards men's issues as a woman's study would towards women's issues. Nothing wrong with that.

The most important thing is that they are in Scripture. Some groups out there are only into the social aspect of meeting together with very little real teaching. The best studies go in deep and leave you thinking hard in the days after.

I respect your opinion. I am more progressive than most folks my age.

[Carl in Tampa]

I personally reject any theology that is exclusionary.

You may reject all three of the great monotheistic religions which spring from the same root, and are considered "revealed" religions, but where does that leave you?

Whom and how do you worship? What is your basis for believing that God cares for you rather than thinking that He is the impersonal Creator who simply set things in motion and let it go? You have to have borrowed from some religious practice to even have the concept of prayer, and for that matter the concept of Heaven.

It sounds like you are at that buffet table, borrowing a little tenet here and a little dogma there and trying to assemble your own religion. None of the three major monotheistic religions would agree with this approach.

.

[Polar Bear]

...I cannot reconcile the concept that God created the earth and everything on it, yet blesses only a relative minority of the people on it

Nor can I.

[eweissenbach]

You may reject all three of the great monotheistic religions which spring from the same root, and are considered "revealed" religions, but where does that leave you?

Whom and how do you worship? What is your basis for believing that God cares for you rather than thinking that He is the impersonal Creator who simply set things in motion and let it go? You have to have borrowed from some religious practice to even have the concept of prayer, and for that matter the concept of Heaven.

It sounds like you are at that buffet table, borrowing a little tenet here and a little dogma there and trying to assemble your own religion. None of the three major monotheistic religions would agree with this approach.

.

And I am quite comfortable with that, thank you.

[donb9006]

No... Jesus is a historical figure that has been verified by many witnesses and the Koran and the Bible contradict each other so they cannot both be on the same path to heaven. They can both be wrong..but there's no way they can both be right.

Actually, he hasn't been "verified" except by believers. There is no record of him except in religious texts written by followers...many years after he was gone. I know I sound like a broken record, I keep saying the same thing...neither Jesun nor ANY of his immediate followers wrote anything down. ALL the writings are done decades after he was gone. That is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. It's like people beginning to talk/write now about someone who died in the 60s. Someone whom nobody wrote about at the time, and now suddenly everyone is writing about. You have no way of knowing what REALLY happened.


I said it in another post on another thread blind faith requires one come to God (Jesus Christ) as a child. Some people simply cannot relinquish such control. I truly envy people who have blind faith because such a surrender seems to empower them more than those who cannot relinquish such control

Perhaps its all imaginary but to quote "If God did not exist then man would have had to invent him"

God (Jesus Christ) real or inventive is a good thing because man has to believe in something greater than himself or his inventions. godless men commit atrocious acts because one or more of the seven sins over take them. Men who claim to do God's work, but do evil, cannot actually believe because if they did they could not and as such are deceivers

I am by nature a naturalist who believes in intelligent design but cannot determine its origins but there is organization and collaboration to this universe as is evidenced all around us and as the commercial says, ïts not nice to fool mother nature" Abortion is one of those meddling and it has had a pronounced effect on our population which ages quickly with a loss of a younger generation to take up the mantle

People who believe "blindly" often times don't fare well.

Personally, I think we did invent him...just my guess.

Why? Why do you think people MUST believe in something greater than themselves? Men OF God also committ atrocities... Seems comitting atrocities isn't just for non-Christians. Atrocoties were condoned by Popes throughout history, the Pope speaks for God, why the atrocities then? Are atrocities OK with God? Many questions and no answers.

So why not stick to "I don't know"? Why "blindly" believe in a religion? Do you have a "need" to believe? Scientists say we're predisposed to relinquish ourselves to authority. Maybe they're right, maybe we HAVE to believe in something, our genes force us to. Who knows...nobody does...and that's the point. NOBODY knows...

Abortion is responsible for the "baby boom", mainstreaming of birth control and abortion is what stopped the exponential birthrate into the early 60s. It IS a cause of a lot of our problems.


I sure hope that you do pick up CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and as another man mentioned, even more so, his "Screwtape Letters." Maybe go to a library and pick up the Oxford Annotated Bible just for its valuable Introduction and commentaries before each Book.

Read and read and read others thoughts if you are sincerely on a quest. Four or five posters here on TOTV cannot ever approach the wisdom of the ages. It's there for you. I respectfully suggest reading Psalm 131 several times and reflect on it. It 'right sizes' my swollen head every time.


Yes, I agree...read, read, read...but make sure you're an equal opportunity reader...you also have to read things counter your beliefs.

Psalm 131 teaches you to not think about things that are important. Be content in your ignorance like a child. Sorry...that's not for me. I do my own thinking thank you...

Not here for any reason other than to try to get you to have an open mind. Just because everyone believes something...doesn't make it true.

Your "religion" is more where you're born than anything else. And they believe as fervently as you do that THEY are the ones with special knowledge. Religious belief is quite interesting when you study ALL sides. Look at the extremes Muslims go through for their religion. Everyone thinks THEY have found the answer...I posit none have...

Have a great day...

[eweissenbach]

You may reject all three of the great monotheistic religions which spring from the same root, and are considered "revealed" religions,
.

It seems to me that you are saying that to be a "true Christian", you must be intolerant of every other religion, or at least believe that they do not have a path to heaven. How do you reconcile the fact that many Christian denominations have specific beliefs which would exclude every other denomination from a path to heaven. Are you SURE you are in the right one? That is actually a rhetorical question because clearly you do. For all of our sakes, I hope I am right and God has an inclusionary policy.

[DAWN MARIE]

Actually, he hasn't been "verified" except by believers. There is no record of him except in religious texts written by followers...many years after he was gone. I know I sound like a broken record, I keep saying the same thing...neither Jesun nor ANY of his immediate followers wrote anything down. ALL the writings are done decades after he was gone. That is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. It's like people beginning none have...

Have a great day...

This isn't true Don. If you use the same standard for all history books that you just used for the bible, then you have to throw them all away just as you do the bible. What about Josephus? The existence of Christ has NEVER been questioned by scholars. NEVER. They may question his deity...but not his person. So the question is where are you getting your information? You can argue he wasn't God but you CANNOT argue that He never existed.

If Christ didn't exist, neither did George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc.

We have more manuscript evidence for Scripture than any other historical document or works of antiquities. Look up Josephesus, Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 Chap 3. All about Jesus. He was an unbelieving Jewish historian who lived during the first century.

Also, the writers of the NT all lived in the first century and were basically eye witness accounts written mostly by the disciples. The scientific method is called textual criticism. Look it up.

I've got more than 40 years of research into this one book. Every other book you read, this book reads you.

[ilovetv]

Some of this ("I'm a good person")....and some of that ("I did more for the needy than most people")....or some of this ("All the good muslims and hindi and christians are all going to the same place anyway, just by different ways")....

....will not purify nor bring our souls to eternal life in God's holy presence. Only repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer-Savior will prepare our souls for eternal life and perfection in God's presence.

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him,
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14 (NASB)
__

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5 (NASB)
___

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him,
“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


John 14 NASB - Jesus Comforts His Disciples - (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=NASB)
John 5 NASB - The Healing at Bethesda - After these - Bible Gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205&version=NASB)
Luke 23 NASB - Jesus before Pilate - Then the whole - Bible Gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023&version=NASB)

[DAWN MARIE]

It seems to me that you are saying that to be a "true Christian", you must be intolerant of every other religion, or at least believe that they do not have a path to heaven. How do you reconcile the fact that many Christian denominations have specific beliefs which would exclude every other denomination from a path to heaven. Are you SURE you are in the right one? That is actually a rhetorical question because clearly you do. For all of our sakes, I hope I am right and God has an inclusionary policy.

Christ wasn't inclusionary. So what do you think of Christ?

It's not about religions. I've been everything. Started out Catholic, then was an Episcopalian, then JW, Mormon, 7th Day Adventist and today go to a Southern Baptist church. IT"S NOT ABOUT RELIGION.

It's about truth. What is the truth? It's not found in man made religions...but in the person of Christ. Yes, he was exclusive. He said there was NO OTHER way into heaven but by him. He also said he did not come here to build a kingdom. Look around....isn't that what many are doing today? Building big kingdoms in the name of Christ?

He came here to show the way and everything he did was eye witness worthy. He himself said not to believe anything without 2 or 3 witnesses. What you are speaking about is universalism. You actually believe it doesn't matter we just all get to go to heaven?

What I see really...is that everyone wants the Kingdom, but doesn't want the King. Big problem.

[Golfingnut]

I agree that Jesus did exist, but have serious doubt about the Virgin Mary and God being the father of Jesus. I am more comfortable with Jesus being a wonderful profit. Born a male child to an unwed mother. He had the ability and desire to study the writings of those preceding him and the converting them into a kind more modern interpretation that worked better than the OT scriptures. I put him on a parallel with Mohamed. I also feel that both Muslims and Christians will find the afterlife. To clarify, I personally think this heaven thing is all smoke and mirrors but I also believe if you follow any of the major religions, you will find peace and comfort in this world.

[Abby10]

Thanks and I will look into the bible studies they offer. I would prefer a mixed group as I see MEN ONLY as demeaning to women as would be whites only etc.

Actually they do have mixed groups, Golfingnut, but not sure if there is one in your area. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to see the way both women and men are viewed and respected in this particular organization. Whatever you decide, best wishes to you, Golfingnut.

[Abby10]

another good book is "Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. That would be a good book for Golfingnut to check out.

Abby another good bible study in the Villages is in Lady Lake and is attended by people from all denominations. It's run by Marv Rosenthal who comes in from Winter Garden. He's the one who built the Holy Land Experience in Orlando but sold it a number of years ago. I've been going there about 5 years now and believe it's the best in The Villages. It's at the 1st Baptist Church in Lady Lake at the intersection of 466 and Rolling Acres near the VFW.

Thanks for the info! Is this study for both men and women? If (no, when) we ever get moved down there, I would love to be able to go to a study with my husband.

[DAWN MARIE]

I agree that Jesus did exist, but have serious doubt about the Virgin Mary and God being the father of Jesus. I am more comfortable with Jesus being a wonderful profit. Born a male child to an unwed mother. He had the ability and desire to study the writings of those preceding him and the converting them into a kind more modern interpretation that worked better than the OT scriptures. I put him on a parallel with Mohamed. I also feel that both Muslims and Christians will find the afterlife. To clarify, I personally think this heaven thing is all smoke and mirrors but I also believe if you follow any of the major religions, you will find peace and comfort in this world.

Ok, Golfingnut..I have a question for ya. You believe he existed and that he was a prophet. But,did you know he made claims of deity? He claimed to be God. That's why he was killed. So now it has to come down to do you believe this prophet or not?

Also, do you know that Jesus rose from the dead but Mohammed did not? So how can they be compared? Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did.

Did you know that thousands of years before the prophets in the OT said to look for one who would be born of a Virgin (that would be the sign he was the right one) and that he would be the Messiah to save the world from their sins?

[Carl in Tampa]

Actually, he hasn't been "verified" except by believers. There is no record of him except in religious texts written by followers...many years after he was gone. I know I sound like a broken record, I keep saying the same thing...neither Jesun nor ANY of his immediate followers wrote anything down. ALL the writings are done decades after he was gone. That is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. It's like people beginning to talk/write now about someone who died in the 60s. Someone whom nobody wrote about at the time, and now suddenly everyone is writing about. You have no way of knowing what REALLY happened.


Actually, some of the New Testament books were written by people who knew Jesus and witnessed his life. Some were in his inner circle, The Apostles. Notable among eyewitnesses would be "James, the brother of Jesus" and Peter. Matthew and John were also eyewitnesses who authored New Testament books, contrary to your assertion that none of his immediate followers wrote anything down. The fact that they were believers does not invalidate the fact that they were writing about an historical figure.

A principal non-Christian source is Flavius Josephus, a Romanized Jewish historian. He wrote, "About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders." [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ."

Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

Interestingly, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. His virgin birth is affirmed and he is considered a venerated prophet. They simply deny his deity. In the Koran Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Jesus as a historical figure is firmly established.

.

[eweissenbach]

Christ wasn't inclusionary. So what do you think of Christ?

It's not about religions. I've been everything. Started out Catholic, then was an Episcopalian, then JW, Mormon, 7th Day Adventist and today go to a Southern Baptist church. IT"S NOT ABOUT RELIGION.

It's about truth. What is the truth? It's not found in man made religions...but in the person of Christ. Yes, he was exclusive. He said there was NO OTHER way into heaven but by him. He also said he did not come here to build a kingdom. Look around....isn't that what many are doing today? Building big kingdoms in the name of Christ?

He came here to show the way and everything he did was eye witness worthy. He himself said not to believe anything without 2 or 3 witnesses. What you are speaking about is universalism. You actually believe it doesn't matter we just all get to go to heaven?

What I see really...is that everyone wants the Kingdom, but doesn't want the King. Big problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?

[Carl in Tampa]

ALL the writings are done decades after he was gone. That is the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. It's like people beginning to talk/write now about someone who died in the 60s. Someone whom nobody wrote about at the time, and now suddenly everyone is writing about. You have no way of knowing what REALLY happened.

Well, John Kennedy died in the 60s. Some of the closest eyewitnesses to his life and his death, the Secret Service agents assigned to protect him in Dallas, are just now breaking their silence and producing books about not only the event of his death but also their relationships with the family members.

I know and respect these agents, some of whom are friends of mine. Why would I not consider their accounts trustworthy?

While on the subject I'll recommend a couple of the books:

In the Secret Service: The True Story of the Man Who Saved President Reagan's Life by Jerry Parr and Carolyn Parr.

Jerry was the agent who pushed President Reagan into the limousine when he was shot.

The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence by Gerald Blaine, Lisa McCubbin and Clint Hill.

Clint Hill was the agent who jumped on the back of the Kennedy limousine in Dallas and pushed Jackie back into the car.


Five Days in November by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. Clint was one of the most psychologically tortured of the agents present that day and went through severe depression afterward.


Mrs. Kennedy and Me by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. When Clint was assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy he considered it a demotion. Later he came to treasure his relationship with her and her children.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm just demonstrating that the passage of time does not mean that eyewitnesses cannot write meaningful memoirs decades later.

.

[tucson]

I have a suggestion to those that are seeking the truth of God's divine plan for ALL mankind, "ask Him"! Read Matthew 7:7-9; Luke 12:31; Hebrews 11:6 "And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him."

[DAWN MARIE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?

No, SB do NOT believe that. If they did, I wouldn't be there. Some groups do tho. One baptism is all that is necessary and it's ONLY a witness or profession of faith. You may be thinking infant baptism vs adult or believer's baptism tho. SB would NOT recognize an infant baptism because it's not seen anywhere in Scripture. But even so you can still worship even if you were baptized as an infant. They would just insist you be baptized in order to join

Many of the groups I was involved in were cults and I would say are actually dangerous..spiritually speaking. Nice, nice people but very deceived. I don't believe any of my past years were wasted in these "off" groups though. I have so much knowledge in what they believe in and have been very instrumental in helping others wade thru the muck comparing these religions with what Scripture actually teaches.

[DAWN MARIE]

Thanks for the info! Is this study for both men and women? If (no, when) we ever get moved down there, I would love to be able to go to a study with my husband.

Yes, both men and women and many couples go. It's well worth it. It's every Tuesday at 10 but most get there after 9:15 or so for coffee and cookies beforehand. Gets over about 11:15.

[ilovetv]

how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?

People are saved by their individual, personal faith in Christ, not by doing the practices/ordinances nor the doctrines/dogmas of denominations, nondenominationals, nor by the faith of their families.

The Word of God is read and proclaimed in most Christian churches, and it accomplishes what God sends it to do with those who surrender to God's authority....and believe Him....regardless of other "stuff" that is preached/required.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
--Romans 10:17

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, (probably unnecessary phrase), but don't southern Baptists require that one be baptized in their church in order to be a member, even if they have previously been baptized in another Christian denomination? If so, doesn't that imply that baptism in other churches is invalid according to their beliefs? If that is the case, how do you feel about all those wasted years, and the ones you left behind, in those other denominations that you now must belief are destined to not be saved?


Response by Dawn Marie: No, SB do NOT believe that. If they did, I wouldn't be there. Some groups do tho. One baptism is all that is necessary and it's ONLY a witness or profession of faith. You may be thinking infant baptism vs adult or believer's baptism tho. SB would NOT recognize an infant baptism because it's not seen anywhere in Scripture. But even so you can still worship even if you were baptized as an infant. They would just insist you be baptized in order to join

Many of the groups I was involved in were cults and I would say are actually dangerous..spiritually speaking. Nice, nice people but very deceived. I don't believe any of my past years were wasted in these "off" groups though. I have so much knowledge in what they believe in and have been very instrumental in helping others wade thru the muck comparing these religions with what Scripture actually teaches.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't presume to "improve" on Dawn Marie's response, but I would like to add my perspective.

1. Southern Baptists do not believe that you must be baptized to be saved.

2. Each Southern Baptist church is an independent, autonomous entity, operating at various levels of "congregational" self-government. They may or may not belong to a local, regional association and/or the Southern Baptist Convention. However, membership in these organizations does not give either the power to dictate how their church is governed.

3. In that light, each church may set its own standards for membership. A profession of trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the payment to God for their sins is mandatory. If they have previously been baptized in a church of "like faith and manner" they may become a member of the church without being baptized again. If their baptism was otherwise, such as infant baptism, they must be baptized in order to become a member of the local congregation. Baptism is seen simply as a public expression of their faith.

This may be a poor analogy, but think of it as similar to the initiation rites of a fraternity.

4. The baptism requirement does not, as you assume, imply that prior baptisms were "invalid" because Southern Baptists do not believe that baptism confers salvation. Prior baptisms were simply initiations into other denominations. Southern Baptists accept the salvation, with a notable exception, of virtually all Christian faiths where trust in Jesus is the central tenet.

5. What is the exception? you wonder. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have a view of the personhood of Jesus which is contrary to scripture. Without going too much into detail I'll just say that Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

6. And, of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. They deny that Jesus is divine. They believe Jesus was "God's first creation" which means he is not God.

-------------------------

In my 30s a few of my best friends were Jehovah's Witnesses and I have many cousins in Tampa who are active in that faith to this day. They are highly principled and nice people.

Some of my closest friends in the Secret Service are Mormons. They are kind, ethical people. When I was on the advance team for President Nixon's visit to the Mormon Tabernacle I worked with security personnel there and instantly developed several friendships.

However, sadly, I think their theology is mistaken.

It does not make me happy, but I am not in control.

.

[Carl in Tampa]

People are saved by their individual, personal faith in Christ, not by doing the practices/ordinances nor the doctrines/dogmas of denominations, nondenominationals, nor by the faith of their families.

The Word of God is read and proclaimed in most Christian churches, and it accomplishes what God sends it to do with those who surrender to God's authority....and believe Him....regardless of other "stuff" that is preached/required.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
--Romans 10:17

:agree:

I agree. All this other stuff I've been posting is just commentary on history.

Denominations meet various individual needs, but personal faith in Christ is central to Christianity.

.

[DAWN MARIE]

Thanks Carl..you are so thorough and analytical. You are, of course, quite correct in all your points except for one....you "think" their theology is mistaken?

I had an interesting encounter with a JW on a plane. We didn't really begin speaking until nearly the flight end but then it got quite animated and rapid going from one subject matter to another after we answered her with Scripture. After a layover, my husband and I boarded the next plane and lo and behold here comes this same lady on, now another plane, and sat in the same exact seat as the prior plane. All three of us together as before in the same exact seating arrangement. Never happened before nor since and I've been on many trips. We were all in shock but were able to continue the conversation immediately after already making introductions 2 hrs earlier. Turns out she was on her way to a JW convention in Maine.

Time literally flew by as we hit one issue after another. A few days later, 2 JW's (men) came knocking at our host's home. In 20 years of living there they had never had this happen. The two men had more than they could bargain with. We had already been thru every single issue they brought up after our chance meeting on the plane. One of them said that in all his 25 years of knocking on doors he had never met anyone that knew the bible as much as they did (or better). He kept saying "we're done here" and "we need to leave." After about an hour or so they practically ran out the door. They could not get out fast enough.

How's that for divine intervention? :)

[Carl in Tampa]

Thanks Carl..you are so thorough and analytical. You are, of course, quite correct in all your points except for one....you "think" their theology is mistaken?


I "think" was just a figure of speech.

Like saying "I think I'll have lunch now," when I know I'm going to have lunch now.

OR

"I think Shakespeare was a great playwright," when I know that Shakespeare was a great playwright.

:)

[DAWN MARIE]

I "think" was just a figure of speech.

Like saying "I think I'll have lunch now," when I know I'm going to have lunch now.

OR

"I think Shakespeare was a great playwright," when I know that Shakespeare was a great playwright.

:)


:coolsmiley:

LOL..you know I was just pulling your leg right? I was kind of thinking of 1 John 5:13 about "knowing."

[donb9006]

This isn't true Don. If you use the same standard for all history books that you just used for the bible, then you have to throw them all away just as you do the bible. What about Josephus? The existence of Christ has NEVER been questioned by scholars. NEVER. They may question his deity...but not his person. So the question is where are you getting your information? You can argue he wasn't God but you CANNOT argue that He never existed.

If Christ didn't exist, neither did George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc.

We have more manuscript evidence for Scripture than any other historical document or works of antiquities. Look up Josephesus, Antiquities of the Jews Book 18 Chap 3. All about Jesus. He was an unbelieving Jewish historian who lived during the first century.

Also, the writers of the NT all lived in the first century and were basically eye witness accounts written mostly by the disciples. The scientific method is called textual criticism. Look it up.

I've got more than 40 years of research into this one book. Every other book you read, this book reads you.

That's ALL Josephus wrote about Jesus...and did you know he wasn't alive when Jesus was? He was born in 37CE. And I bet you also don't know he didn't write that until late in his life? He wrote his "history" from memory. Did you know he was a Roman enemy and surrendered? Besides religious writings...that's all there is. Jesus just isn't mentioned outside Christianity...by anyone.

I'll also tell you...the George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, King David, Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Caesar etc. you read about in the history books...are NOT the real people. History is embellished.

No, the NT was NOT written by the disciples...all unaffiliated scholars agree most of the books of the NT are anonymous, not written by those whoms names they carry.

You need to expand the source for your studies. I believe you're suffering from confirmation bias.

Ok, Golfingnut..I have a question for ya. You believe he existed and that he was a prophet. But,did you know he made claims of deity? He claimed to be God. That's why he was killed. So now it has to come down to do you believe this prophet or not?

Also, do you know that Jesus rose from the dead but Mohammed did not? So how can they be compared? Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did.

Did you know that thousands of years before the prophets in the OT said to look for one who would be born of a Virgin (that would be the sign he was the right one) and that he would be the Messiah to save the world from their sins?

That's just it...according to the stories, very few Jews believed Jesus WAS the Messiah. Most said he didn't fulfill all the requirements. Actually nobody did until Paul comes around (Paul NEVER met Jesus) and begins to feverishly promote Jesus and Christianity.

Actually, some of the New Testament books were written by people who knew Jesus and witnessed his life. Some were in his inner circle, The Apostles. Notable among eyewitnesses would be "James, the brother of Jesus" and Peter. Matthew and John were also eyewitnesses who authored New Testament books, contrary to your assertion that none of his immediate followers wrote anything down. The fact that they were believers does not invalidate the fact that they were writing about an historical figure.

A principal non-Christian source is Flavius Josephus, a Romanized Jewish historian. He wrote, "About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders." [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ."

Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

The author of the denomination was Christ who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

Interestingly, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran. His virgin birth is affirmed and he is considered a venerated prophet. They simply deny his deity. In the Koran Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

Jesus as a historical figure is firmly established.

.

No, his Apostles did not write those books of the NT.

XVIII 3.2 is the ONLY mention of Jesus by Josephus. And as I said earlier...it was hearsay, read it again, it's hearsay...he HEARS about a man named Jesus. He wasn't born when Jesus was alive. And he's ALL you've got outside Christian writers who mention Jesus.

Tacitus wrote almost 100 years later...you call that PROOF? Really?

Muhammad started Islam in 610CE...that's almost 600 years after the fact...this is more "proof"?

That's the problem there isn't ANYTHING written by ANYONE during the time of Jesus.

Well, John Kennedy died in the 60s. Some of the closest eyewitnesses to his life and his death, the Secret Service agents assigned to protect him in Dallas, are just now breaking their silence and producing books about not only the event of his death but also their relationships with the family members.

I know and respect these agents, some of whom are friends of mine. Why would I not consider their accounts trustworthy?

While on the subject I'll recommend a couple of the books:

[U]In the Secret Service: The True Story of the Man Who Saved President Reagan's Life by Jerry Parr and Carolyn Parr.

Jerry was the agent who pushed President Reagan into the limousine when he was shot.

The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence by Gerald Blaine, Lisa McCubbin and Clint Hill.

Clint Hill was the agent who jumped on the back of the Kennedy limousine in Dallas and pushed Jackie back into the car.


Five Days in November by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. Clint was one of the most psychologically tortured of the agents present that day and went through severe depression afterward.


Mrs. Kennedy and Me by Clint Hill and Lisa McCubbin. When Clint was assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy he considered it a demotion. Later he came to treasure his relationship with her and her children.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm just demonstrating that the passage of time does not mean that eyewitnesses cannot write meaningful memoirs decades later.

.

What does this have to do with my question? Jesus wasn't Caesar, if Caesar was killed, we'd know about it.

So Carl, what REALLY happened on that day in Dallas? lone gunman? A lone gunman who was conveniently killed at the police station? Why is everything still sealed? And no, all the sealed evidence hasn't been released, why? Because it was sealed. It's probably been destroyed...it's been 50 years already...I'm sure we'll get an "opps, we can't find it" the day of the unsealing. Like Giraldo and Al Capone's vault.

[DAWN MARIE]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue or debate with you Don. You've got your mind made up. Not much I'm going to do about that.

One thing I do know...is truth always prevails. It's like cream. It will always come to the top eventually. keep searching.

[Carl in Tampa]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue or debate with you Don. You've got your mind made up. Not much I'm going to do about that.

One thing I do know...is truth always prevails. It's like cream. It will always come to the top eventually. keep searching.

Alas, Don dismisses all scholarship and evidence that does not conform to his prejudices.

He chooses to ignore all writings by the church fathers who were of the generation following the Apostles and who received their instruction from the Apostles, who were eyewitnesses to the acts, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus. These include Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna.

Don is more intent on winning an argument than on seeking truth.

He also made a remark comparing the authenticity of Apostolic writings to someone today writing about someone from the 60s. When I point out how many people have recently written about Jack Kennedy he attempts to obfuscate by getting into conspiracy theories about the assassination. The assassination is irrelevant to the fact that many people who knew Kennedy well have written histories about his life, just as people who knew Jesus have written about Jesus.

"And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

Luke 9:5

[Easyrider]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue or debate with you Don. You've got your mind made up. Not much I'm going to do about that.

One thing I do know...is truth always prevails. It's like cream. It will always come to the top eventually. keep searching.

Dawn and Carl a really good effort but at this point it's pointless.....and more about just trying to prove you are wrong. Without faith in God and his son Jesus Christ, one cannot believe.

The sin of unbelief is what separates us from God and denying the Holy Ghost is the only unforgivable sin.

Certainly nothing new about people not believing for they also didn't believe Jesus when he walked here upon the earth and performed many miracles that they actually witnessed.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Moderator]

Please keep your comments directed at the topic and not each other.

[Parker]

I love debate. It is so informative, on a variety of levels. Keep it going, politely please.

[tucson]

And Proverbs 18:2 tell us that, "Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions".......

[donb9006]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue or debate with you Don. You've got your mind made up. Not much I'm going to do about that.

One thing I do know...is truth always prevails. It's like cream. It will always come to the top eventually. keep searching.

Whom has their "mind made up"? I'm just telling you what "I" have found in my studies. I wondered for years..."what am I missing? Why does everyone else believe?" I've found through MY study that I'm missing nothing. Truth always rises to the top? Really? Where? The world is full of lies. Institutional lies go on forever...

Alas, Don dismisses all scholarship and evidence that does not conform to his prejudices.

He chooses to ignore all writings by the church fathers who were of the generation following the Apostles and who received their instruction from the Apostles, who were eyewitnesses to the acts, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus. These include Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna.

Don is more intent on winning an argument than on seeking truth.

He also made a remark comparing the authenticity of Apostolic writings to someone today writing about someone from the 60s. When I point out how many people have recently written about Jack Kennedy he attempts to obfuscate by getting into conspiracy theories about the assassination. The assassination is irrelevant to the fact that many people who knew Kennedy well have written histories about his life, just as people who knew Jesus have written about Jesus.

"And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

Luke 9:5

No, I've dismissed "scholorship" done by those with "skin in the game". I've looked to those outside the religion for other answers. More honest answers.

Can you deny anything I've said? DID Josephus write more than that one little paragraph "about Jesus"? No. Are there any other writings by people OUTSIDE Christianity about Jesus? No. If you have something FROM THAT TIME, show me. Most scholors say the people named as the writers of the books...Mark, John, Mathew, etc. were NOT the ones who actually wrote them. Though your "Christian bible scholor" won't admit it.

Show me the Roman records of the trial of Jesus. Show me the record of his crucifiction. Show me anything written about him by someone other than a follower.

You keep bringing up Kennedy...why? Kennedy was the president, of course people wrote about him. Why didn't all kinds of people write about Jesus if he was so important at the time?

I have QUESTIONS not answers. I'm just stating what isn't true about what you are saying. You people have all the answers, you peoplea are SURE about what you believe. My question is why? There's nothing to bac it up except things written WELL after the fact by people with an interest in promoting what THEY say.

I love debate. It is so informative, on a variety of levels. Keep it going, politely please.

I'm trying...I'm trying.

And Proverbs 18:2 tell us that, "Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions".......

Actually, "fools" have no opinion of their own and rely on others to tell them what to think...

[DAWN MARIE]

Whom has their "mind made up"? I'm just telling you what "I" have found in my studies. I wondered for years..."what am I missing? Why does everyone else believe?" I've found through MY study that I'm missing nothing. Truth always rises to the top? Really? Where? The world is full of lies. Institutional lies go on forever...

No, I've dismissed "scholorship" done by those with "skin in the game". I've looked to those outside the religion for other answers. More honest answers.

Most scholors say the people named as the writers of the books...Mark, John, Mathew, etc. were NOT the ones who actually wrote them. Though your "Christian bible scholor" won't admit it.

I have QUESTIONS not answers. I'm just stating what isn't true about what you are saying. You people have all the answers, you peoplea are SURE about what you believe. My question is why? There's nothing to bac it up except things written WELL after the fact by people with an interest in promoting what THEY say.

I'm trying...I'm trying.

Actually, "fools" have no opinion of their own and rely on others to tell them what to think...

I see what your problem is. You are going to people outside of the religion who will answer what you wish to hear. You're saying yourself they are "more honest?" Based on what criteria?

If you're going to go to Africa and have never been there before, do you get your information from people who have never left their home town, or do you seek those who have traveled abroad and more importantly been to Africa?

You're getting bad information. Matthew wrote the book of Matthew. Mark wrote the book of Mark most likely with Peter's help. Luke wrote Luke and John wrote John...and most scholars DO believe that.

John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation. The letters written by Paul were sent to churches and addressed to them as letters.

Have you even read this book? I mean, really read it?

The best person to go to for answers is the one whom you are avoiding. God said himself in His Book that those who truly seek me will find me. We did that. That's why we are so convinced that He is real and His book is much more than a book written with the hand of man.

[tucson]

Why do we believe so heartily?? I can answer for myself... when I sought God with all my heart, mind and soul, I found Him in a tremendously powerful and on such a intimate and personal way that was life-changing 33 yrs ago. It saved me from probably years of sitting in front of a psychiatrist and alot of pain. He found me looking for Him...I love Him and it has made me a better person for it. I pray for those searching for His truth and unconditional love to find the same...:-)

[Golfingnut]

Why do we believe so heartily?? I can answer for myself... when I sought God with all my heart, mind and soul, I found Him in a tremendously powerful and on such a intimate and personal way that was life-changing 33 yrs ago. It saved me from probably years of sitting in front of a psychiatrist and alot of pain. He found me looking for Him...I love Him and it has made me a better person for it. I pray for those searching for His truth and unconditional love to find the same...:-)

I have been searching for 33 years and nothing. Count yourself very fortunate. Even if your wrong you have gained a lifetime of peaceful living. I envy what you have archived. I am slipping more away from faith every day.

[DAWN MARIE]

I have been searching for 33 years and nothing. Count yourself very fortunate. Even if your wrong you have gained a lifetime of peaceful living. I envy what you have archived. I am slipping more away from faith every day.


Really? I think the whole interest you have is worth merit. Don't give up. Keep at it. If you genuinely want God in your life...go to him...ask him. Read his Word, and pray, pray, pray for wisdom and guidance. He will make himself known to you in an amazing way. Be honest. Be sincere and keep waiting. It's all God's timing...not ours.

[Golfingnut]

Really? I think the whole interest you have is worth merit. Don't give up. Keep at it. If you genuinely want God in your life...go to him...ask him. Read his Word, and pray, pray, pray for wisdom and guidance. He will make himself known to you in an amazing way. Be honest. Be sincere and keep waiting. It's all God's timing...not ours.

Thanks and I am still hanging on. Both my wife and my families are faithful. The all refer to me as the heathen. Probably a scripture for that little smack.

[rubicon]

In earlier posts there was a go about concerning whether South Baptist require people to be re-baptized . The suggestion was denied as being inaccurate . To make a point let me share with you that when I lived in Memphis both of my children (catholic) were told by SB that they were going to hell and to be saved they had to be re-baptized.

I believe and understand that the people spouting these beliefs were probably mis-interpreting their church doctrine,,,,but that is the point

Far too many people of faith seem to pick and choose off the documentary menu.

Bottom line for me is that a God/Jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers. Why is it that Bill Graham the Pope, etc knows more about [t]he truth than others

[Carl in Tampa]

In earlier posts there was a go about concerning whether South Baptist require people to be re-baptized . The suggestion was denied as being inaccurate . To make a point let me share with you that when I lived in Memphis both of my children (catholic) were told by SB that they were going to hell and to be saved they had to be re-baptized.

I believe and understand that the people spouting these beliefs were probably mis-interpreting their church doctrine,,,,but that is the point

Far too many people of faith seem to pick and choose off the documentary menu.

Bottom line for me is that a God/Jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers. Why is it that Bill Graham the Pope, etc knows more about [t]he truth than others

You are correct that if a person purporting to be Southern Baptist said that baptism was required for salvation, they were mistaken.

This, from an official Southern Baptist web site: " Southern Baptists have always understood the Bible to teach that baptism is not a part of salvation, but subsequent to it (Luke 23:42-43; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:21-22, 10:9-10, 11:5-6; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 5:12-13). Southern Baptist churches teach that baptism is purely emblematic in nature and not essential to salvation."

International Mission Board :: News & Information (http://www.imb.org/main/news/details.asp?LanguageID=1709&StoryID=3840)

You mention Billy Graham. You might be interested to know that he received infant baptism in a Presbyterian church, but as an adult he was re-baptized and has spent the rest of his life as a Southern Baptist.

Billy Graham and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association - Historical Background (http://www2.wheaton.edu/bgc/archives/bio.html)

.

[donb9006]

I see what your problem is. You are going to people outside of the religion who will answer what you wish to hear. You're saying yourself they are "more honest?" Based on what criteria?

If you're going to go to Africa and have never been there before, do you get your information from people who have never left their home town, or do you seek those who have traveled abroad and more importantly been to Africa?

You're getting bad information. Matthew wrote the book of Matthew. Mark wrote the book of Mark most likely with Peter's help. Luke wrote Luke and John wrote John...and most scholars DO believe that.

John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation. The letters written by Paul were sent to churches and addressed to them as letters.

Have you even read this book? I mean, really read it?

The best person to go to for answers is the one whom you are avoiding. God said himself in His Book that those who truly seek me will find me. We did that. That's why we are so convinced that He is real and His book is much more than a book written with the hand of man.

You assume too much Dawn... I have listened to BOTH sides. I've read the Bible, Had courses in Jesus, Early and late Christianity, Gnostics, Books that were omitted during Canonizing. Roman history, I really have tried. I told you, my search was for what I was missing. And I concluded I'm not missing anything. Christianity is just one of many MAJOR religions, all different, all filled with believers that would give their life for it. There are too many DIFFERENT true believers. I'm convinced you're all wrong. That people are born to follow. We're more herd like than we'd like to admit. That and the teaching starts at a VERY early age with malleable brains. Religion breaks down to "you are where you grew up and lived". Religion is regional.

If there WERE any evidence, it would help, but you don't have any. Just believers writing about believers. You NEED outside eyes looking at you "proof" too.

That's just it...you have NOBODY writing who's been to Africa. Nobody writing the NT met Jesus. There is nothing by Jesus or anyone who personally met him...nothing. That's VERY troubling to me. Paul is to Christianity as Muhammed is to Islam. It's really the religion of one man.

From Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Authors

Authorship is an area of longstanding and current research and debate, with different works posing different problems for identification. While the various works have traditional ascriptions of authorship, these ascriptions are in some cases defended by scholars, and in other cases disputed or rejected.[26] None of the Gospel authors is thought to be an eyewitness, and none claims to be. There is a broad consensus that many of the books of the New Testament were not written by the people whose names are attached to them.[27]

I have been searching for 33 years and nothing. Count yourself very fortunate. Even if your wrong you have gained a lifetime of peaceful living. I envy what you have archived. I am slipping more away from faith every day.

Make your own peace. It's what "finding God" is anyway. They ascribe it to God, I'd say it's becoming comfortable with oneself. They use God as a placebo to find the cure to their ills.

In earlier posts there was a go about concerning whether South Baptist require people to be re-baptized . The suggestion was denied as being inaccurate . To make a point let me share with you that when I lived in Memphis both of my children (catholic) were told by SB that they were going to hell and to be saved they had to be re-baptized.

I believe and understand that the people spouting these beliefs were probably mis-interpreting their church doctrine,,,,but that is the point

Far too many people of faith seem to pick and choose off the documentary menu.

Bottom line for me is that a God/Jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers. Why is it that Bill Graham the Pope, etc knows more about [t]he truth than others

That quite a problem...and you never hear anyone address it...relativism...gotta love it!

Exactly, a God who gives free will and then punishes when you actually use it? I don't think so...

Gotta run, wish I could go more deeply...

[eweissenbach]

bottom line for me is that a god/jesus of love could not create me to be me and then deny me paradise because my cerebral pursuit of the truth left me with more questions than answers.

bingo

[ilovetv]

Catholic Bible

Ephesians 2

Generosity of God’s Plan.

1 You were dead in your transgressions and sins

2 in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.

3 All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ* (by grace you have been saved),

6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

9 it is not from works, so no one may boast

scripture (http://www.usccb.org/bible/ephesians/2)

[DAWN MARIE]

That quite a problem...and you never hear anyone address it...relativism...gotta love it!

Exactly, a God who gives free will and then punishes when you actually use it? I don't think so...

Gotta run, wish I could go more deeply...

I'm not much into relativism.

Let's talk about free will here tho. What happens when you use your "free will" to break a law? To physically hurt someone? Happens all the time. People use their free will and then go to jail for it.

Same here. Go ahead. Use your free will. See how far that will get you in God's court of law.

[Easyrider]

bingo

As a tree falls so shall it lie. Telling ourselves such things won't change what we fail to do here..

[Golfingnut]

Wow. I have to read real slow to absorb these latest posts. I would say we have some very knowledgable posters on both banks of this river.

[DougB]

Wow. I have to read real slow to absorb these latest posts. I would say we have some very knowledgable posters on both banks of this river.

Or, the opposite.

[rubicon]

Or, the opposite.

Hi DougB: I have to agree and include myself in what I refer to "intellecutualizing oneself into stupidity". It is often said of intellectual elitist who believe that they are so far superior intellectually above all others that only their opinion matters and literally ignore the opinions of others . And in refrain I say "out of the mouths of babe's" Indeed many adult has learned from the words or actions of a child, perhaps its because their motives are pure and free from confirmation bias that is to say they haven't been contaminated yet.

Take for instance the issue of in the name of God or religions many wars have been fought and many people savagely and needlessly slaughtered True enough.

On the other hand so too have these events occurred because of secular disputes ( territorial disputes, ideologies such as socialism. communism, ethnicity even custom (we raid your village we raid yours its what our ancestors did)).

My comments regarding interpretation of church dogma refer to meaning and re-reading my comments I mistakenly made a point of relativism which was not intended

I also made reference to a good faith effort to pursue truth and unable to do so resulting in the loss of paradise seemed incongruent. The counter to this was well we have free will but if you choose wrong and steal you go to jail. Fair enough but what about the mentally challenged individual that was created by God does that soul pay a penalty also? I mean I can't know what I don't know. What about Adam and Eve and the billions upon billions of their descendants that came before 1AD? And what about the people who live today that have never been touched by Christianity such as the newly discovered bush people of the Amazon?

Having said all that it is my belief that we are better served believing in something greater than ourselves and why I believe religion has served mankind well because history has taught us that in such a vacuum totalitarian despots are created.

[tucson]

God has the ability to make Himself known to people who've never been exposed to Christian missionaries and/or the Bible. There is many Muslims in the mideast who are having visions, dreams and even experiences today with the LIVING God, He is able to touch souls in a way that no man can. He says, try Me if I will not pour out a blessing upon you, ask of me, you must come to Him as a "child" ie; with childlike faith believing He IS.... People believe there is air, I've never heard of anyone ever doubting that fact. But, they cannot SEE air, or FEEL air, that is how it is with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Test Him today, ask Him for His wisdom and His knowledge, He will give you all and more than your hearts desire.....

[graciegirl]

Hi DougB: I have to agree and include myself in what I refer to "intellecutualizing oneself into stupidity". It is often said of intellectual elitist who believe that they are so far superior intellectually above all others that only their opinion matters and literally ignore the opinions of others . And in refrain I say "out of the mouths of babe's" Indeed many adult has learned from the words or actions of a child, perhaps its because their motives are pure and free from confirmation bias that is to say they haven't been contaminated yet.

Take for instance the issue of in the name of God or religions many wars have been fought and many people savagely and needlessly slaughtered True enough.

On the other hand so too have these events occurred because of secular disputes ( territorial disputes, ideologies such as socialism. communism, ethnicity even custom (we raid your village we raid yours its what our ancestors did)).

My comments regarding interpretation of church dogma refer to meaning and re-reading my comments I mistakenly made a point of relativism which was not intended

I also made reference to a good faith effort to pursue truth and unable to do so resulting in the loss of paradise seemed incongruent. The counter to this was well we have free will but if you choose wrong and steal you go to jail. Fair enough but what about the mentally challenged individual that was created by God does that soul pay a penalty also? I mean I can't know what I don't know. What about Adam and Eve and the billions upon billions of their descendants that came before 1AD? And what about the people who live today that have never been touched by Christianity such as the newly discovered bush people of the Amazon?

Having said all that it is my belief that we are better served believing in something greater than ourselves and why I believe religion has served mankind well because history has taught us that in such a vacuum totalitarian despots are created.



There is something about you, Rubicon, that always shows fairness, good sense, a balanced way of viewing the world around you and just plain kindness. You are very bright but never scathing. You have added so many good things to my day over time.


Thank you.

[DAWN MARIE]

I also made reference to a good faith effort to pursue truth and unable to do so resulting in the loss of paradise seemed incongruent. The counter to this was well we have free will but if you choose wrong and steal you go to jail. Fair enough but what about the mentally challenged individual that was created by God does that soul pay a penalty also? I mean I can't know what I don't know. What about Adam and Eve and the billions upon billions of their descendants that came before 1AD? And what about the people who live today that have never been touched by Christianity such as the newly discovered bush people of the Amazon?


Much of your angst against the bible and/or religion isn't unique. There are literally myriads of others just like you. I've heard these same arguments over and over. I used to have a blog site called "Kickin For Christ" where I would try my best to answer, guide and explain the reason for my faith and the journey it took me to get to where I am now.

It's like if I answer a question they would go onto another objection without commenting on the current one we had been discussing. This showed me they didn't really want an answer but to try and justify their unbelief.

So now you go to Adam, Eve, People of the Amazon and mentally challenged. The answers are all in that book I asked if you read and studied.

I'll take one of your objections for brevity: Adam and Eve and their descendants. They were saved the same way those AFTER the cross were saved. They looked FORWARD in anticipation to the Messiah who would come to take their sin from them and we look BACK in thanksgiving that HE did come and take away our sin from us. Belief. Faith. We are saved by faith thru Grace.

The bible is like a big puzzle. As we put the pieces together we start to see a beautiful picture that was once before a jumbled mess in front of us. Piece by piece in the right place makes a world of difference. I've got a big part of the puzzle put together but still have a ways to go. I'm not finished...but I can tell you this...what I've been seeing these last 40 years of putting this puzzle together is astounding.

[rubicon]

Much of your angst against the bible and/or religion isn't unique. There are literally myriads of others just like you. I've heard these same arguments over and over. I used to have a blog site called "Kickin For Christ" where I would try my best to answer, guide and explain the reason for my faith and the journey it took me to get to where I am now.

It's like if I answer a question they would go onto another objection without commenting on the current one we had been discussing. This showed me they didn't really want an answer but to try and justify their unbelief.

So now you go to Adam, Eve, People of the Amazon and mentally challenged. The answers are all in that book I asked if you read and studied.

I'll take one of your objections for brevity: Adam and Eve and their descendants. They were saved the same way those AFTER the cross were saved. They looked FORWARD in anticipation to the Messiah who would come to take their sin from them and we look BACK in thanksgiving that HE did come and take away our sin from us. Belief. Faith. We are saved by faith thru Grace.

The bible is like a big puzzle. As we put the pieces together we start to see a beautiful picture that was once before a jumbled mess in front of us. Piece by piece in the right place makes a world of difference. I've got a big part of the puzzle put together but still have a ways to go. I'm not finished...but I can tell you this...what I've been seeing these last 40 years of putting this puzzle together is astounding.

DawnMarie: I have said in previous posts that I envy people of faith because they are content to put their trust in the Lord and that is a good way to live.

This big puzzle you speak of confronts us all. I left home at the age of 17 believing I had been conditioned to think and act a certain way. I vowed to strip myself of all previous dogma and to begin again as sort a rebirth. Like you I have studied and stayed open to and respect every ideology, except that which we broadly define as evil. People like me (pragmatic, naturalist, objective leaning, science based) cannot enter faith as a child because we cannot surrender ourselves. so what makes us good makes us bad but that is our DNA makeup. I do pray and I do obey the 10 commandments because my senses tell me these are good things to do. I do not lie or steal or covet my neighbors goods because my senses tell me they are bad things for me and for society and most importantly I always wanted to set good example for my children. I advanced my education my career. I sacrificed and suffered pain and disappointment in silence. these are things good parents do. My mother once told me that of all her children I had the purest heart ...lucky for me it was over the phone at the time and for obvious reasons. Just as a mother knows her children's heart I suspect a God of love knows his childrens' hearts and in knowing their heart he will know their destinations , if that be the truth

[Golfingnut]

There is something about you, Rubicon, that always shows fairness, good sense, a balanced way of viewing the world around you and just plain kindness. You are very bright but never scathing. You have added so many good things to my day over time.


Thank you.

Ditto!

[DAWN MARIE]

This big puzzle you speak of confronts us all. I left home at the age of 17 believing I had been conditioned to think and act a certain way. I vowed to strip myself of all previous dogma and to begin again as sort a rebirth. Like you I have studied and stayed open to and respect every ideology, except that which we broadly define as evil. People like me (pragmatic, naturalist, objective leaning, science based) cannot enter faith as a child because we cannot surrender ourselves. so what makes us good makes us bad but that is our DNA makeup. I do pray and I do obey the 10 commandments because my senses tell me these are good things to do. I do not lie or steal or covet my neighbors goods because my senses tell me they are bad things for me and for society and most importantly I always wanted to set good example for my children. I advanced my education my career. I sacrificed and suffered pain and disappointment in silence. these are things good parents do. My mother once told me that of all her children I had the purest heart ...lucky for me it was over the phone at the time and for obvious reasons. Just as a mother knows her children's heart I suspect a God of love knows his childrens' hearts and in knowing their heart he will know their destinations , if that be the truth

Can I ask? Did you start off RC by any chance?

I appreciate your sharing and I'm always interested in the paths people have been on. You sound like a very good person. I have a book by Andy Stanley that I lend out called "How Good is Good Enough?"

It's very interesting. Basically it comes down to we can't be good enough. That's why Christ came. Only he was able to keep the whole Law where we could not. Only He was able to satisfy God's attribute of Justice. Only He was able to satisfy God's wrath over sinful mankind. Somebody had to do it because we were ALL destined for judgment because we have ALL broken God's law. You break a law here, you go to jail. You break God's law, you go before the judge and suffer the consequences which basically is a Godless eternity or what we normally call Hell.

Your description about being objective, pragmatic, science leaning etc...is also a description of my son. He is a Neuro Scientist Ph.D and is a very very strong Christian. I could tell you stories about what he's up against in the Science World. He's definitely an oddity in today's world but in yesteryear, it wasn't uncommon to be a Scientist and a Christian. Many well known Scientists were Christians back in the day. Today it isn't normative.

Keep in mind tho...we are NOT all God's children. Only those who are called by His name and are following Him are. We are all his creation but not all his children. I would suggest you read the whole book of John . Read one chapter a day and you'll be done in three weeks. And pray over it. it could be life changing for you. If you consider doing so, I'll be a prayer warrior on your behalf. We'll see if God shows up big and strong in your life and you will envy no more because He will be a reality to you.

[rubicon]

Can I ask? Did you start off RC by any chance?

I appreciate your sharing and I'm always interested in the paths people have been on. You sound like a very good person. I have a book by Andy Stanley that I lend out called "How Good is Good Enough?"

It's very interesting. Basically it comes down to we can't be good enough. That's why Christ came. Only he was able to keep the whole Law where we could not. Only He was able to satisfy God's attribute of Justice. Only He was able to satisfy God's wrath over sinful mankind. Somebody had to do it because we were ALL destined for judgment because we have ALL broken God's law. You break a law here, you go to jail. You break God's law, you go before the judge and suffer the consequences which basically is a Godless eternity or what we normally call Hell.

Your description about being objective, pragmatic, science leaning etc...is also a description of my son. He is a Neuro Scientist Ph.D and is a very very strong Christian. I could tell you stories about what he's up against in the Science World. He's definitely an oddity in today's world but in yesteryear, it wasn't uncommon to be a Scientist and a Christian. Many well known Scientists were Christians back in the day. Today it isn't normative.

Keep in mind tho...we are NOT all God's children. Only those who are called by His name and are following Him are. We are all his creation but not all his children. I would suggest you read the whole book of John . Read one chapter a day and you'll be done in three weeks. And pray over it. it could be life changing for you. If you consider doing so, I'll be a prayer warrior on your behalf. We'll see if God shows up big and strong in your life and you will envy no more because He will be a reality to you.

Dawnmarie: I can use all the prayers I can get. I believe in the power of prayer but perhaps for different reasons than some.

I compliment both you and your son for his great educational accomplishment and expect he is successful in his career. I do not see a contradiction of a scientist being a Christian and in fact supports such a believer because of the faith flowing from the scientist to people certainly has a positive affect on the personal lives of the people involved in his life.

and as an aside at a time when I was gravely ill a nurse asked for permission to lay hands on me and pray. I was not offended and appreciated her concern

I was baptized a Roman Catholic and my story follows most catholic boys altar boy, etc. Of all Christian faiths being catholic fit me best.

However the dividing issue for me is that like any organization large or small politics inserts itself and then God's word or the interpretation thereof is subjected to the political or personal ideological whims of a human being. The result is that it becomes the singer and not the song. Ergo I can approach my God as a child because if I believe then he is my Father but I cannot and will not surrender myself to a human being who may or may not be a better person than me.

Unlike many people I enjoy discussing politics and religion and find people's responses, beliefs, approaches etc stimulating , educational and often in awe as the unique approaches taken by some

And, so Dawn Marie I appreciate your candor and your point of view and the time you take sharing . Life is complicated and that's what makes it worth living.


Personal Best Regards:

[eweissenbach]

However the dividing issue for me is that like any organization large or small politics inserts itself and then God's word or the interpretation thereof is subjected to the political or personal ideological whims of a human being. The result is that it becomes the singer and not the song. Ergo I can approach my God as a child because if I believe then he is my Father but I cannot and will not surrender myself to a human being who may or may not be a better person than me.

Personal Best Regards:

Once again, well said Rubi, I am in complete agreement, although I do attend church services, as I have found ones that I am comfortable with, which keep things relatively apolitical, and upbeat. I don't look at the pastors as someone to surrender to, but rather someone who has studied and is a good educator and interesting speaker, nothing more, nothing less.

[2BNTV]

Once again, well said Rubi, I am in complete agreement, although I do attend church services, as I have found ones that I am comfortable with, which keep things relatively apolitical, and upbeat. I don't look at the pastors as someone to surrender to, but rather someone who has studied and is a good educator and interesting speaker, nothing more, nothing less.

:agree: The pastor should be able to explain the bible in ways, in one's relationship to GOD,and the things that happen that affect, each and every one of us. He is there to teach and sheppered his flock, to doing what is right, in the eyes of GOD and his fellow man. The second greatest commandment is, "to love one another as I have loved you".

I wouldn't put another human being above me either, but don't discount the counsel of one who should be wise, in the ways of the world. I have seen some church people who expound on their limited knowledge on their interpritation of the bible, that leaves a lot to be desired.

One should know what it is in their heart, before looking to others, who may be more flawed in their thinking. IMHO

[onslowe]

I really thank the authors of the last three posts. Like Rubicon, I started out as an RC, then I went to the Episcopal Church for a number of years but found I needed a more Scripture based and tradition respecting place of worship for my personal spiritual needs. I have been blessed by the nearness of several Anglican (Anglo-Catholic) churches here, and am very happy at St George Anglican in Ocala.

Like Ed, too, I would not elevate any other human above me. Pedestals always fail some how and my shattered expectations then cause resentments. Problems have occurred when clergy were mistakenly placed 'above it all' by some well meaning lay persons. Great phrase above- the singer becomes more important than the song. I go to church to worship to learn, and be edified in my faith through my religion.
Then as always, Brother Joe knocks it right out of the park with his wonderful words and insight. Thanks much.

[Parker]

Great big group hug for all those seeking understanding with sincere hearts. God bless us all in that pursuit.

[DAWN MARIE]

Dawnmarie: I can use all the prayers I can get. I believe in the power of prayer but perhaps for different reasons than some.

I compliment both you and your son for his great educational accomplishment and expect he is successful in his career.

I was baptized a Roman Catholic and my story follows most catholic boys altar boy, etc. Of all Christian faiths being catholic fit me best.

However the dividing issue for me is that like any organization large or small politics inserts itself and then God's word or the interpretation thereof is subjected to the political or personal ideological whims of a human being. The result is that it becomes the singer and not the song. Ergo I can approach my God as a child because if I believe then he is my Father but I cannot and will not surrender myself to a human being who may or may not be a better person than me.

And, so Dawn Marie I appreciate your candor and your point of view and the time you take sharing . Life is complicated and that's what makes it worth living.

Personal Best Regards:

A few thoughts Rubicon...my son (one of three) is very successful as a Scientist but he has kept his mouth shut about his faith for the most part in order to achieve this success. He said once he made a name for himself he would be able to speak and he was not about to do that until he received his doctorate. He recently cured epilepsy in adult mice which has never been done and finds himself somewhat of a rock star in the epileptic world. He's been written up in several Science Journals and recently received a million dollar grant from the government to continue his research. God has certainly blessed him for being faithful.

Even though you didn't say I was pretty sure I could read RC between the lines. I came out of that religion as well as my husband who was also an altar boy and thought hard about becoming a Priest.

I do have to say Doctrine DOES matter. It's the ONLY way to fight heresy. The RCC was not a good church when it came to bible reading. They wanted you to rely on them alone and that is not a good thing. God wants us in His book, reading, studying and meditating on it. It's His word to us. It's great to pray and meditate on God but in order to have a relationship with Him it has to be two way. it can't be all about you talking to him without you listening to His heart via His Word.

When we become Christ followers (born again is a term used in Scripture) God gives us certain gifts. For some, it's Pastors, others teachers, helpers, some gift of compassion, discernment, etc. The comparison is liken to a body. We are not all arms, toes, or legs. The body is made up of diff parts. So too is the body of Christ. He has appointed Pastors and teachers to help us. We are to surrender to God alone but there's nothing wrong with being under a teaching of another gifted by God. Paul wrote to follow him as he followed Christ. Everything, everything...tho has to be examined in the light of Scripture. Paul had no problem with the Bareans who checked Paul out by examining the Scripture themselves to see if Paul was telling the truth.

Life is complicated filled with many trials and tribulations...it's only going to get worse. I do believe Satan is real and that there is a battle that has been going on since the beginning. We can't see it but we can see the evidence of it. I thank God for His Spirit and His Word to guide me in these very uncertain times.

Blessings to you Rubicon.

[DAWN MARIE]

Great big group hug for all those seeking understanding with sincere hearts. God bless us all in that pursuit.


Yes...God knows and is the great discerner of the heart. Only He knows what is in the heart of man.

[DaleMN]

The Shadow knows......:doh: