A retired policeman shoots someone over texting

[shcisamax]

I have waffled on gun control. But now we have a 71 year old retired Florida captain of the police who goes to the movies with his wife and shoots a man (fatally) and his wife (in her hand) sitting two rows away after having words because he is texting which was presumably extremely annoying.

Clearly there is no one better trained than a captain in the police force on how to and when to use a gun. He had to have been checked for his mental health to be in the police department. In a theatre with people watching a movie, he lost it. Just completely lost it. In a movie theatre, he stumbled over the people in between and took out a 38 and killed the man and inadvertently his wife. What is there to say? If you can't trust a 71 year old retired policeman to be able to responsibly handle a gun, who should be trusted? It is so very disturbing.

[justjim]

If reports are accurate, the feature movie hadn't started----the previews were showing at the time of the shooting. True, even under these circumstances texting is annoying but not to the point of killing someone. Seems similar to "road rage". Very scary!

[asianthree]

its just sad very sad

[shcisamax]

What I find most disturbing is a retired police man...captain no less...who should have the most experience and "patience" with a situation completely lost it with his wife there as well. Can you imagine what would have happened if he hadn't shot straight and started a shoot out in the theatre? If someone of this caliber can be that recklessly dangerous with a gun..where is the standard for responsible ownership? It is so disheartening. If he hadn't had the gun, it would have been such a different situation.

[JerryP]

read the story, 43 year old vs 71 year old man.
“This verbal altercation starts getting louder and louder. During this altercation, it goes from a verbal to a physical altercation,” he said.
Then, “the suspect, Curtis Reeves, pulled out a gun,”

Retired cop guns down man for texting at Florida movie: sheriff - U.S. News (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/13/22292711-retired-cop-guns-down-man-for-texting-at-florida-movie-sheriff?lite)

[BarryRX]

read the story, 43 year old vs 71 year old man.
“This verbal altercation starts getting louder and louder. During this altercation, it goes from a verbal to a physical altercation,” he said.
Then, “the suspect, Curtis Reeves, pulled out a gun,”

Retired cop guns down man for texting at Florida movie: sheriff - U.S. News (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/13/22292711-retired-cop-guns-down-man-for-texting-at-florida-movie-sheriff?lite)

The suspect they are referring to in the story is the 71 year old sheriff. The 43 year old that was texting did not pull a weapon and was apparently unarmed.

[shcisamax]

The facts are pretty straight forward. What it leaves you with is the question, "If you can't trust a retired police captain with a gun, who can you trust?" What happens to the argument that guns don't kill people but people kill people so guns in the right hands are no problem. Who exactly is the "right" person? With all those years of training...he lost it. If he lost it, I have to think I could...especially on the roundabouts during season :)

[Bogie Shooter]

Looking forward to hearing how the NRA will defend this action.

[JerryP]

The suspect they are referring to in the story is the 71 year old sheriff. The 43 year old that was texting did not pull a weapon and was apparently unarmed.

I know, I read the story, I was pointing out the fact that it turned into a physical altercation before “the suspect, Curtis Reeves, pulled out a gun,”

[redwitch]

We really don't know how much training the shooter had. Being a police officer doesn't necessarily mean you've been trained in criminal justice procedures. Many sheriffs are elected officials. They don't necessarily have any police training to get the job. Working up the ranks to police commander doesn't guarantee a lot of training -- it could be political, it could be nepotism, it could be blind luck.

I know in California officers in one town are required to have a Master's in either criminal justice or education. The next town over requires a high school diploma. The difference in the officers of these two towns is amazing. Something tells me most officers in Florida have the type of training the high school graduates have -- they know how to be bullies; they know how to write tickets; they know how to profile; but they don't really know how to protect and serve. Don't assume that police officers have all that much more training than the average person. It really depends on the area.

The reality is that every human has a trigger that can be pulled if pushed too far. So, if that trigger is pulled, things become physical. If you happen to have a weapon when in that state, it becomes very possible to want to use that weapon and, if you're not entirely sane (none of us are), it becomes possible to use that weapon. I am totally of the theory that it is people that kill, not guns. So, limiting who can have a gun makes sense. Florida is too lax in who can carry, as are most states. To me, there should be a viable reason for being allowed to carry a concealed weapon, not just in case something happens and there MIGHT be a need to protect myself. It should be a very viable reason; evidence should be given that a gun is needed because of a threat of grave physical harm. To issue a concealed weapon to someone just because they have no history of violence and have not committed a felony is not sufficient in my mind.

(BTW -- I carry, so don't push my buttons. ;-))

[shcisamax]

I know, I read the story, I was pointing out the fact that it turned into a physical altercation before “the suspect, Curtis Reeves, pulled out a gun,”

CNN interviewed a retired marine (vietnam) and his son who were sitting in between. He did not mention a physical altercation between the two of them. He said the policeman stumbled over him and his son and shot the man.

It doesn't really matter. He shot the man over being annoyed.

[buggyone]

Looking forward to hearing how the NRA will defend this action.


Maybe the NRA will say that due to all of his experience and training, the retired police captain hit his intended target instead of a bystander?

This intentional shooting by a retired law enforcement officer is just one more reason not to carry concealed pistols when just going out for an evening of entertainment. Wesley Chapel is not a high crime area and there was no need to carry a pistol into a theater.

[PJOHNS2654]

I have waffled on gun control. But now we have a 71 year old retired Florida captain of the police who goes to the movies with his wife and shoots a man (fatally) and his wife (in her hand) sitting two rows away after having words because he is texting which was presumably extremely annoying.

Clearly there is no one better trained than a captain in the police force on how to and when to use a gun. He had to have been checked for his mental health to be in the police department. In a theatre with people watching a movie, he lost it. Just completely lost it. In a movie theatre, he stumbled over the people in between and took out a 38 and killed the man and inadvertently his wife. What is there to say? If you can't trust a 71 year old retired policeman to be able to responsibly handle a gun, who should be trusted? It is so very disturbing.

The article I read indicated it was a retired Police Captain. Where does Sheriff come in?

[janmcn]

Maybe the NRA will say that due to all of his experience and training, the retired police captain hit his intended target instead of a bystander?

This intentional shooting by a retired law enforcement officer is just one more reason not to carry concealed pistols when just going out for an evening of entertainment. Wesley Chapel is not a high crime area and there was no need to carry a pistol into a theater.


The theatre chain where this occured does not allow guns and has signs posted "no guns allowed". At some point, the alleged shooter left the theatre and returned with a gun. This sounds like pre-meditated murder.

The shooter has been charged with second-degree murder. There was no physical altercation between the two men. They were two rows apart, according to news reports. At age 71, whatever sentence he receives will probably be a life sentence.

[shcisamax]

The article I read indicated it was a retired Police Captain. Where does Sheriff come in?

Yes I put in the wrong title (sheriff) as they were referring to him as a sheriff initially in the news report I was listening to. I then corrected that detail as I wrote the post. In fact, I referred to him later as a police man as well. That said, I fail to see ultimately if it makes a difference whether he was a sheriff, a policeman, or a captain who shot someone over texting in the theatre.

[Bonnevie]

he was beyond trained. from the article:

"Reeves retired as a captain from the Tampa Police Department in 1993, said Laura McElroy, a spokeswoman for the department, adding that Reeves helped set up the department's first SWAT team."

I still don't understand why people feel they need to be armed at all times. Clearly, if this man had no gun on him, this wouldn't have happened.

[PJOHNS2654]

Yes I put in the wrong title (sheriff) as they were referring to him as a sheriff initially in the news report I was listening to. I then corrected that detail as I wrote the post. In fact, I referred to him later as a police man as well. That said, I fail to see ultimately if it makes a difference whether he was a sheriff, a policeman, or a captain who shot someone over texting in the theatre.

As Red Witch pointed out a sheriff could have been elected and not had any training. Also I believe this was many years after his retirement and we don't know his mental state.

[graciegirl]

I think that there are greater questions from listening to the views on this forum about law enforcement over time. Some feel that law enforcement is the enemy and don't miss a chance to put them down. Some think of them as officer friendly, always the good guys.


My grandfather (my grandparents raised me) was a police officer for 39 years and never fired his weapon at anyone in Columbus, Ohio. He was a tall, fit man, quiet and not very talkative. I never saw him angry.


So my opinion of what a police officer is, is much colored by my view of him.


I think that there are SOME who may be bullies who want to become police officers these days and want to boss people around. I don't know. I don't have much, actually no dealings with the law.


The people who are law enforcement I am sure are carefully vetted, but still mental illness and personality problems like anger control can happen if someone begins to go into dementia.


It is true that if he hadn't had a gun, those innocent people wouldn't be dead.


But that in itself is not the whole answer here.


Defining the questions become more difficult as I get older and see more of life.

[eweissenbach]

As Red Witch pointed out a sheriff could have been elected and not had any training. Also I believe this was many years after his retirement and we don't know his mental state.

The sheriff reference may have come from the report that an off duty Sumter Co. Deputy sheriff apparently held the shooter until the local authorities arrived.

[shcisamax]

My point was: If a highly trained and long experienced officer of the law can lose it over someone texting and shoot him while at a theatre with his wife, what does that say about the rest of us who have far less experience.

This is not to slam police. It is to examine the tenet that guns should only be in the right hands. Who is the "right" hand if not this man?

[shcisamax]

As Red Witch pointed out a sheriff could have been elected and not had any training. Also I believe this was many years after his retirement and we don't know his mental state.


Thanks for pointing out the distinction. You learn something every day.

[nitehawk]

Lesson learned --- do not text in movie theater :)

[JourneyOfLife]

It is a lesson to all of us about the consequences of letting anger take control!

[TexaninVA]

I have waffled on gun control. But now we have a 71 year old retired Florida captain of the police who goes to the movies with his wife and shoots a man (fatally) and his wife (in her hand) sitting two rows away after having words because he is texting which was presumably extremely annoying.

Clearly there is no one better trained than a captain in the police force on how to and when to use a gun. He had to have been checked for his mental health to be in the police department. In a theatre with people watching a movie, he lost it. Just completely lost it. In a movie theatre, he stumbled over the people in between and took out a 38 and killed the man and inadvertently his wife. What is there to say? If you can't trust a 71 year old retired policeman to be able to responsibly handle a gun, who should be trusted? It is so very disturbing.

There are millions of people who own firearms and who have never broken the guns laws nor used them irresponsibly. Just because one guy is a felonious fool does not, ergo, mean that all gun owners should be punished ... ie gun control.

The basic premise remains intact ... if the guv outlaws legal gun ownership, or restricts it so severely as to accomplish the same purpose de facto, criminals will continue to use firearms irregardless.

[TexaninVA]

he was beyond trained. from the article:

"Reeves retired as a captain from the Tampa Police Department in 1993, said Laura McElroy, a spokeswoman for the department, adding that Reeves helped set up the department's first SWAT team."

I still don't understand why people feel they need to be armed at all times. Clearly, if this man had no gun on him, this wouldn't have happened.

This guy should not have carried his weapon into the theater. The FL laws states that, if an establishment so posts, the carrier must obey. in any event, he should be tried for murder 1.

However, I think the correlation between the need for concealed carry depends on where one lives. In the TV bubble for instance, I see no need. Other towns in Central Florida ... not the same. Agree however Wesley CHapel is a nice place.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Someone said that if the retired officer didn't have a gun, an innocent life would not have been lost. Could he not have waited for the victim to exit the theater and then run him over with his car? Should we ban all cars because of some irresponsible drivers?
This gun was obviously in the wrong hands regardless of the perpetrator's former job.

[Bonnevie]

well one would hope that the time it would take for the person to leave, get in his car, and maybe listen to his wife (hopefully) would have given him the time needed to realize he was over-reacting. It just seems to me, that a lot of these incidents, (George Zimmerman, a man in Clearwater who came out to yell at skateboarders and killed his neighbors) are because people had guns when they didn't need them.

I came from a family of police officers. They never wanted to pull a gun because they are trained not to do so unless they intend to use it. And there may be a different breed of police these days. Certainly the job has gotten more difficult. In my father's day the police were respected and people obeyed them. Now they taunt and insult them and if they react at all get complaints filed.

This man was 71 and may have had some age related dementia or something that caused him to reach that degree of anger. I mean the guy was texting during the previews....not the film itself and to become so infuriated to resort to that all the while he sat there breaking the law by having a gun there....

[Golfingnut]

The one man was texting where it was clearly illegal to do it. Then the other guy had a gun where he should not have had it. Does the two violations cancel each other out. Of course the killing still remains. Perhaps the 71 year old man was in fear of his life from the 43 year old man. Zimmerman got away with it so why not the retired officer.

[Happinow]

It seems to me that since the world is becoming so unpredictable that metal detectors should be placed at the entrance of every public place.... theaters, malls, restaurants, etc. why would anyone need to bring a gun into a public place if there were no other weapons in that establishment? Problem solved.

[LndLocked]

Lesson learned --- do not text in movie theater :)

A husband and father of a young girl DIED .... your attempt at humor is decidedly not funny

[Golfingnut]

A husband and father of a young girl DIED .... your attempt at humor is decidedly not funny

Rules are rules as I have learned om TOTV reference the fence behind the bush.

[janmcn]

The one man was texting where it was clearly illegal to do it. Then the other guy had a gun where he should not have had it. Does the two violations cancel each other out. Of course the killing still remains. Perhaps the 71 year old man was in fear of his life from the 43 year old man. Zimmerman got away with it so why not the retired officer.


George Zimmerman got away with it because he claimed self-defense. The police department spokesman said yesterday that this is not a self-defense or 'stand your ground' case and would not be investigated as such.

Friends and neighbors, interviewed for today's newpapers, were unanimous in saying Curtis Reeves was in control of his mental faculties.

Who said it is illegal to text in a movie theater?

[JRW8219]

The basic premise remains intact ... if the guv outlaws legal gun ownership, or restricts it so severely as to accomplish the same purpose de facto, criminals will continue to use firearms irregardless.

Yes but at least THIS texter would be alive! This story isn't an isolate incident. People die every day from someone carrying a concealed (legal) gun. Would have been a complete non-story if a gun was not present. Sad, Sad.

[jblum315]

And the Florida legislature right now is considering a bill to allow people to show (i.e. brandish) a gun in public.

[Carl in Tampa]

We really don't know how much training the shooter had. Being a police officer doesn't necessarily mean you've been trained in criminal justice procedures. Many sheriffs are elected officials. They don't necessarily have any police training to get the job. Working up the ranks to police commander doesn't guarantee a lot of training -- it could be political, it could be nepotism, it could be blind luck.

I know in California officers in one town are required to have a Master's in either criminal justice or education. The next town over requires a high school diploma. The difference in the officers of these two towns is amazing. Something tells me most officers in Florida have the type of training the high school graduates have -- they know how to be bullies; they know how to write tickets; they know how to profile; but they don't really know how to protect and serve. Don't assume that police officers have all that much more training than the average person. It really depends on the area.

The reality is that every human has a trigger that can be pulled if pushed too far. So, if that trigger is pulled, things become physical. If you happen to have a weapon when in that state, it becomes very possible to want to use that weapon and, if you're not entirely sane (none of us are), it becomes possible to use that weapon. I am totally of the theory that it is people that kill, not guns. So, limiting who can have a gun makes sense. Florida is too lax in who can carry, as are most states. To me, there should be a viable reason for being allowed to carry a concealed weapon, not just in case something happens and there MIGHT be a need to protect myself. It should be a very viable reason; evidence should be given that a gun is needed because of a threat of grave physical harm. To issue a concealed weapon to someone just because they have no history of violence and have not committed a felony is not sufficient in my mind.

(BTW -- I carry, so don't push my buttons. ;-))

Perhaps a little education about the training of law enforcement officers in Florida is in order. It might change your stereotype image, as highlighted above.

1. The shooter was neither an elected Sheriff nor a Deputy Sheriff. He was a retired Captain from the Tampa Police Department. He had been retired for over twenty years.

2. Florida has a very stringent qualification program for certification as a law enforcement officer, administered by the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Division of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

In addition, an annual re-qualification in the high hazard elements (especially firearms, pursuit driving and first responder first aid) and in physical fitness is mandatory for maintaining certification. The basic training program for certification as a law enforcement officer lasts just over three months.

3. In the agency where I worked, the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office (Tampa) you need not bother to apply to become a Deputy Sheriff unless you already have a four year college degree.

If accepted for consideration you are required to go through a state approved police academy to become certified as a law enforcement officer, but this does not guarantee you a job.

Applicants at HCSO must go through an additional training period which is similar to military "boot camp" where your response to highly stressful situations, simulating police job stress, is measured.

Successful applicants then go "on the road" with a Field Training Officer where they are further evaluated for suitability for a career in law enforcement. If successful, they then operate on their own for a further probationary period, and then become full fledged Deputy Sheriffs.

In addition to the Law Enforcement Deputies, the HCSO has certified Detention Deputies who staff the multiple jail facilities and the courts of the county. Their training is similar, with emphasis on a different skill set, to the Law Enforcement Deputies.

The HCSO is one of the largest Sheriff's Offices in the United States.

And, getting back to the original point --- your stereotype of law enforcement officers in Florida. The Florida Criminal Justice Standards and Training Curriculum is available for review on line at Florida Department of Law Enforcement (http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/eafbafaa-20c0-496c-b6ab-98cd918adccf/2009LEBRTProgramCourses.aspx) I don't think you will find being bullies, writing tickets or profiling on the list.

------------

Getting back to this particular tragic incident, there is another observation to be made. The shooter was 71 years old; the victim was 43. Obviously, tempers flared on both sides.

There is a saying, usually said as a joke, which contains an element of truth:

"Never pick a fight with an old man. He knows that he can't whip you, so he has to shoot you."

Personally, I never express anger at someone who cuts me off in traffic or otherwise offends me in public. To me it isn't worth getting into a confrontation........ even though I think I would prevail. I am an old man.

:police:

[Bogie Shooter]

It seems to me that since the world is becoming so unpredictable that metal detectors should be placed at the entrance of every public place.... theaters, malls, restaurants, etc. why would anyone need to bring a gun into a public place if there were no other weapons in that establishment? Problem solved.

The state of Florida recently decided,with much urging from the NRA, that it was ok for college students to bring a gun to campus.........it must be kept locked in their car. Soon in Florida you will see people with side arms strapped to their hip!

[Bogie Shooter]

A husband and father of a young girl DIED .... your attempt at humor is decidedly not funny

I agree.

[janmcn]

A circuit judge has denied Curtis Reeves bond, so it seems he will have plenty of time to sit in jail and rethink his actions. His decision going forward seems to be do I possibly bankrupt my family by going to trial or should I just plead guilty and spend the rest of my life in jail.

[Bogie Shooter]

A circuit judge has denied Curtis Reeves bond, so it seems he will have plenty of time to sit in jail and rethink his actions. His decision going forward seems to be do I possibly bankrupt my family by going to trial or should I just plead guilty and spend the rest of my life in jail.

Probably good points to think about when buying a gun!

[Indydealmaker]

Regardless of the aspect that a gun chose to shoot this guy, we can all expect to see more violence of all types. The general lack of respect for rules and nearly universal void of common courtesy is a breeding ground for confrontation.

[JourneyOfLife]

Quote from CNN Article
During an interview with Reeves with his arrest, and after the former cop was read his Miranda rights, Reeves admitted to firing his weapon at the victim because "he was in fear of being attacked," according to the police report.

Reeves told police that Oulson had hit him with what the police report describes as an "unknown object."

Witnesses told police they saw no punches being thrown during the incident, according to the report.

Bond denied for ex-cop who allegedly shot texting dad at movies (http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

It would not surprise me if this guy uses a legal defense of "self defense".

[janmcn]

Quote from CNN Article


Bond denied for ex-cop who allegedly shot texting dad at movies (http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

It would not surprise me if this guy uses a legal defense of "self defense".


Unfortunately for Mr Reeves, there were over 100 witnesses, including a Sumter County sheriff's deputy who stepped in to subdue the shooter. Another unfortunate fact for Mr Reeves, the victim was two rows away. The only thing that got thrown was popcorn.

Mr Reeves can hire a defense attorney and try the "self defense" strategy, however these attorneys don't come cheap. Reeves could also lose his policeman's pension if he becomes a convicted felon.

[shcisamax]

The entire situation is very sad and a tragedy for all.

[Madelaine Amee]

The general lack of respect for rules and nearly universal void of common courtesy is a breeding ground for confrontation.

:agree: How true!

[LndLocked]

Originally Posted by LndLocked View Post
A husband and father of a young girl DIED .... your attempt at humor is decidedly not funny

Rules are rules as I have learned om TOTV reference the fence behind the bush.

I consider myself above average in the sharpness factor .... and I have no idea what you mean??????????????????????????

[janmcn]

Just heard on the news at 5:00 that the Sumter County sheriff's deputy was sitting only five seats away from the shooter, so it seems that he will be the star witness. Also reported that the gun jammed after one shot, so conceivably more people could have been killed.

Mr Reeves has a defense counsel who represented him in court today when bond was denied. He promised another bond hearing will be held next week.

The saddest news was the victim was texting his three-year-old daughter's babysitter when he was killed.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

well one would hope that the time it would take for the person to leave, get in his car, and maybe listen to his wife (hopefully) would have given him the time needed to realize he was over-reacting. It just seems to me, that a lot of these incidents, (George Zimmerman, a man in Clearwater who came out to yell at skateboarders and killed his neighbors) are because people had guns when they didn't need them.

I came from a family of police officers. They never wanted to pull a gun because they are trained not to do so unless they intend to use it. And there may be a different breed of police these days. Certainly the job has gotten more difficult. In my father's day the police were respected and people obeyed them. Now they taunt and insult them and if they react at all get complaints filed.

This man was 71 and may have had some age related dementia or something that caused him to reach that degree of anger. I mean the guy was texting during the previews....not the film itself and to become so infuriated to resort to that all the while he sat there breaking the law by having a gun there....

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I read that he went out to his car and got the gun and came back in and shot. Why didn't that give him time to think about it and hopefully listen to his wife?

My father was also a police officer. He never shot anyone nor do I recall anyone in his department over the 25 years that he worked there ever shoot anyone. Yet, they all had guns. I

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Probably good points to think about when buying a gun!

No, but they are definitely good things to think about when killing an innocent person with a gun or otherwise.

[Barefoot]

This man was 71 and may have had some age related dementia or something that caused him to reach that degree of anger.

I agree that the alleged shooter must have had dementia or some other mental problem. Shooting a man for texting is not the reaction of a sane person. And I think that will be the defense.

[Carl in Tampa]

Yes but at least THIS texter would be alive! This story isn't an isolate incident. People die every day from someone carrying a concealed (legal) gun. Would have been a complete non-story if a gun was not present. Sad, Sad.

I challenge your statement, highlighted above, that "People die every day from someone carrying a concealed (legal) gun."

Please provide the source of your statistics.

(It would be unacceptable to include those shot lawfully by police officers or by private citizens stopping the commission of a crime.)

Thank you.

.

[Carl in Tampa]

Unfortunately for Mr Reeves, there were over 100 witnesses, including a Sumter County sheriff's deputy who stepped in to subdue the shooter. Another unfortunate fact for Mr Reeves, the victim was two rows away. The only thing that got thrown was popcorn.

Mr Reeves can hire a defense attorney and try the "self defense" strategy, however these attorneys don't come cheap. Reeves could also lose his policeman's pension if he becomes a convicted felon.

I don't know that he can lose his pension for simply being convicted of a felony.

He was not a member of the Florida Retirement System. The Tampa Police Department Pension System is funded by contributions from the employees.

It is still subject to Florida law concerning public retirement systems, which requires the forfeiture of pension benefits for conviction of certain crimes, but homicide is not one of them. They are more concerned with bribery, extortion and other violations of fiduciary duty while still employed. I could not find a provision for taking the pension of a retiree.

When I retired, under the Florida Retirement System, about a decade ago, a retiree could lose his pension for conviction of a crime involving "moral turpitude." That included homicide. I haven't been able to find that provision with an on line search now.

I just don't know.

:shrug:

[Cisco Kid]

I challenge your statement, highlighted above, that "People die every day from someone carrying a concealed (legal) gun."

Please provide the source of your statistics.

(It would be unacceptable to include those shot lawfully by police officers or by private citizens stopping the commission of a crime.)

Thank you.

.

I wonder how many lives are saved every year by legal gun owners ?

[DougB]

The one man was texting where it was clearly illegal to do it. Then the other guy had a gun where he should not have had it. Does the two violations cancel each other out. Of course the killing still remains. Perhaps the 71 year old man was in fear of his life from the 43 year old man. Zimmerman got away with it so why not the retired officer.

Illegal to text in a movie theatre? Could you tell me what statute that is? I would like to read it.

[Carl in Tampa]

I wonder how many lives are saved every year by legal gun owners ?

A study ordered by President Obama found that gun ownership actually saves lives and those who have a firearm at their disposal improve their chances of survival and reduce their chance of injury in the event they are confronted by a violent criminal.

White House Study Finds Guns Save Lives: "Consistently Lower Injury Rates Among Gun Using Crime Victims" (http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/white-house-study-finds-guns-save-lives-consistently-lower-injury-rates-among-gun-using-crime-victims_06272013)

It is estimated that 3 million people use a gun to defend themselves from harm every year. This means that over 8,000 Americans every day act with potentially deadly force to prevent injury or death to themselves or a family member.


.

[buggyone]

Illegal to text in a movie theatre? Could you tell me what statute that is? I would like to read it.

I am sure that Lou was just trying to be facetious in his post. Texting in a theater is rude - not illegal.

I really wonder why anyone would carry a pistol to the movies. How paranoid?

[janmcn]

I am sure that Lou was just trying to be facetious in his post. Texting in a theater is rude - not illegal.

I really wonder why anyone would carry a pistol to the movies. How paranoid?


Two points: This theater chain asks that you not text during the movie. In this case, the movie had not started yet and the victim was texting during the previews.

Also, it was reported on the news tonight that Mr Reeves had a similar altercation with a woman last month over her texting at the same theater. Of course, that one didn't end with a shooting, but the woman reported that Mr Reeves followed her to the ladies room, harrassing her over her texting.

It might seem to a casual observer, that he was vowing to put an end to texting at this theater, one way or another.

[Carl in Tampa]

To issue a concealed weapon to someone just because they have no history of violence and have not committed a felony is not sufficient in my mind.


It's not quite that simple. You might find it enlightening to read the 3,655 word law on the subject.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=open%20carry&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html)

.

[JRW8219]

I challenge your statement, highlighted above, that "People die every day from someone carrying a concealed (legal) gun."

Please provide the source of your statistics.

(It would be unacceptable to include those shot lawfully by police officers or by private citizens stopping the commission of a crime.)

Thank you.

.

Before I provide the statistic I have a bet:

If less than 365 people were murdered (in the U.S) from legal guns last year I will pay YOU XXXX. If more than 365 people were murdered from legal guns last year you will pay ME XXXX.

What shall we make the XXXX?

I know you won't take that bet at any price.

PS: and yes we will not count those stopping a crime (police or otherwise). I'm talking about the number of people arrested and charged with murder whose gun was legally registered to them.

For the last year I could find stats (2011), there were almost 9000 murders from guns. You really think less than 365 (4%) were legally purchased?

[Cisco Kid]

A study ordered by President Obama found that gun ownership actually saves lives and those who have a firearm at their disposal improve their chances of survival and reduce their chance of injury in the event they are confronted by a violent criminal.

White House Study Finds Guns Save Lives: "Consistently Lower Injury Rates Among Gun Using Crime Victims" (http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/white-house-study-finds-guns-save-lives-consistently-lower-injury-rates-among-gun-using-crime-victims_06272013)

It is estimated that 3 million people use a gun to defend themselves from harm every year. This means that over 8,000 Americans every day act with potentially deadly force to prevent injury or death to themselves or a family member.


.

I am sorry Carl, but this data will have to be ignored.
It does not fit the narrative of the gun grabber.

[Parker]

The shooter has apparently lost his mental balance, as humans sometimes do. He is an individual and should be thought of as one, rather than as representing all other gun owners. Lots of law enforcement in my family, and they have always told me that not all officers are created equal.

[2BNTV]

This is not only a gun conriol issue, but the mental health of those in possession of a firearm, and other weapons.

I worked with a guy who was an auxillary police officer and it was scary, this person had a gun to use. Very argumentive, to the point of not trusting him, to do the right thing.

My personal opinion is, that he shouldn't have been that upset, as the movie hadn't started yet. If it was during the viewing of the movie, I could see one being annoyed, if another person was being disruptive. An over reaction, by the P.O., to what was happening. IMHO

When, will all this madness, end????

[nitehawk]

Lesson learned --- do not text in movie theater :)

A husband and father of a young girl DIED .... your attempt at humor is decidedly not funny

I agree.

"SLOW DOWN" nobody except the people on totv have found this ex-officer guilty of anything -- wow -- does anyone know the real story NO - i thought this was america and innocence until PROVEN guilty---- And i stand by my statement THANK YOU

[graciegirl]

"SLOW DOWN" nobody except the people on totv have found this ex-officer guilty of anything -- wow -- does anyone know the real story NO - i thought this was america and innocence until PROVEN guilty---- And i stand by my statement THANK YOU




In my opinion and in the opinions I would guess of almost 100% of people hearing about this and the opinion of the court who has already said no bail this is obviously someone who did something VERY wrong. I don't think anyone can think of any "real story" that could justify someone shooting someone they did not know in a darkened movie theatre.


The responses to the posts quoted was that an attempt at humor triggered justifiable anger in the face of this very horrible (alleged) incident.

[senior citizen]

well one would hope that the time it would take for the person to leave, get in his car, and maybe listen to his wife (hopefully) would have given him the time needed to realize he was over-reacting. It just seems to me, that a lot of these incidents, (George Zimmerman, a man in Clearwater who came out to yell at skateboarders and killed his neighbors) are because people had guns when they didn't need them.

I came from a family of police officers. They never wanted to pull a gun because they are trained not to do so unless they intend to use it. And there may be a different breed of police these days. Certainly the job has gotten more difficult. In my father's day the police were respected and people obeyed them. Now they taunt and insult them and if they react at all get complaints filed.

This man was 71 and may have had some age related dementia or something that caused him to reach that degree of anger. I mean the guy was texting during the previews....not the film itself and to become so infuriated to resort to that all the while he sat there breaking the law by having a gun there....


I agree with your thought that he might have had some age related dementia. I thought that right from the beginning. Many become belligerent and act out of character......not their normal selves.

I also thought he might have been on some type of new pharmaceutical which also "might" have affected his behavior or anger tolerance level.

At our age, none of us like the constant ringing of cell phones or need to text.......but it is what the younger people do. It is NOT A REASON TO TAKE A LIFE.

When I saw that family photo of the wife, the husband and their three year old daughter, I immediately thought of our son, his wife and their 2 and a half year old daughter, and one year old daughter.

I can just see "Daddy" perhaps answering a text that the babysitter and 2 year old sent to mommy and daddy at the theatre. You should see these young toddlers work their way around a cell phone, I-pad, etc......just a matter of fact thing for them. They learned to navigate from babyhood.

Who knows really if the daughter texted him first (with the help of her babysitter) or the dad promised to let the little girl know when they arrived at the theatre. It's all instant communication and constant communication among that age group nowadays.

A very very sad and tragic story. Yes, the 71 year old will get a life sentence....no matter how many years the judge gives him. But, the young dad is dead, for no good reason.......the mom's hand is injured and who knows what nerve damage was done via the shot through her hand when she was trying to protect her husband, a natural instinct.....and the beautiful little girl is fatherless.

Too many angry outbursts all over our country nowadays, for no good reasons.

[nitehawk]

In my opinion and in the opinions I would guess of almost 100% of people hearing about this and the opinion of the court who has already said no bail this is obviously someone who did something VERY wrong. I don't think anyone can think of any "real story" that could justify someone shooting someone they did not know in a darkened movie theatre.


The responses to the posts quoted was that an attempt at humor triggered justifiable anger in the face of this very horrible (alleged) incident.

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE --- That is the American way
As far a my attempt at humor - I am sorry for those who do not see it that way- but I find it humorous - that too is the American way - and you have the right to disagree - that too is the American way and I thank you for your feedback-

[shcisamax]

Although texting can be annoying, so is talking. Wonder if someone will pull a gun out to shut up some incessant talker.

As for dementia or whatever reason, could he not just be a fed up cranky old man? with a gun?

[JourneyOfLife]

He has a right to justice! It probably will be in the hands of a jury. They will make the decision about guilt.

But I am not inclined to make theoretical excuses for the shooter or give the slightest benefit of the doubt myself.

A man is dead. A wife no longer has a husband. A daughter no longer has a father. Parents no longer have a son.

Put yourself in the victims shoes! What if it was your spouse, child, or parent?

[DaleMN]

Move along...nothing to see here....just 'standing his ground'.
And better be silent when ur eating that popcorn. :doh:

[charlie_marie]

In 2006-There were only 54 murders in Australia by firearms, 184 in Canada, 73 in England and Wales, 5 in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden. In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,344 in the United States.
Just saying... We have a gun problem.

[shcisamax]

It's not like he was the posterchild for gun owners.


Oh but he actually is. Who better equipped with training and experience? If he can completely lose control and shoot someone because he is annoyed, then what chance do mere mortals have.

[Bogie Shooter]

"SLOW DOWN" nobody except the people on totv have found this ex-officer guilty of anything -- wow -- does anyone know the real story NO - i thought this was america and innocence until PROVEN guilty---- And i stand by my statement THANK YOU

It seem rather obvious, one shooter, one dead guyl

[Bogie Shooter]

In 2006-There were only 54 murders in Australia by firearms, 184 in Canada, 73 in England and Wales, 5 in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden. In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,344 in the United States.
Just saying... We have a gun problem.

Do ya think?

[Bogie Shooter]

Why should the NRA have to defend the actions of this retired policeman? They didn't tell him to go ballistic on the guy. It's not like he was the posterchild for gun owners.

I'm still waiting..........................and they will defend the event.

[blueash]

The assailant is already setting up his stand your ground defense. Under Florida's law, which our legislature had the opportunity to revise and did not, a person may use deadly force in a situation where they fear for their own safety. Here is the exact language

"He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

Thus the "right" to use deadly force can be based on the belief that either death/great bodily harm might be imminent OR a forcible felony is about to happen

Here is the Florida definition of forcible felony:

“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

and lastly under Florida law a battery ..

The offense of battery occurs when a person:
1. Actually and intentionally touches or strikes another person against the will of the other; or
2. Intentionally causes bodily harm to another person.

A battery when the victim is aged 65 or older is a felony
784.08 Assault or battery on persons 65 years of age or older; reclassification of offenses In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.

Thus if this shooter believed that he was preventing a battery on an elderly person (himself) his belief may be enough to get him off. Note that the definition does not require that the battery has taken place nor is taking place only that the shooter believes such an event is imminent. There is nothing in the law about who started the incident only about the state of mind of the person choosing to exercise his Florida right to stand your ground. If the shooter reasonably believed that he was about to be struck then one interpretation of this law is that he had a right to use deadly force to prevent the battery of a person aged 65+. A good lawyer can certainly make this argument and a judge can rule without the question going before a jury.

[JourneyOfLife]

If he did get off, he would not be the first to successfully use SYG as a defense.

Apparently it has become a common defense tactic.

[Villages PL]

Lesson learned --- do not text in movie theater :)

Yes, and if someone tells you to stop, stop and take it out to the lobby. Don't throw popcorn in the person's face.

Everyone wonders what would have or could have been if the retired captain didn't have a gun. How about asking what would have happened if the nasty texter had just stopped being nasty. Sometimes bad things happen to people who are nasty.

And the retired captain, 71, had been retired for over 20 years. He, like many other retired people, may have been taking multiple prescription drugs which may have impaired his judgement. He might have been taking drugs for depression but, then again, nothing would have happened if the popcorn-jerk had stopped being a jerk.

[Villages PL]

According to the news, this is the second incident involving Curtis in the last three weeks.
Florida Movie Theater Shooting Update: Curtis Reeves Had A Movie Incident 3 Weeks Ago : News : Headlines & Global News (http://www.hngn.com/articles/22052/20140115/florida-movie-theater-shooting-update-curtis-reeves-had-a-movie-incident-3-weeks-ago.htm)

An incident where she made him feel uncomfortable by texting and when he "glarred" at her, she felt uncomfortable too. Then, because she felt guilty, she imagined that he was following her.

Can you imagine her testimony in court?

Lawyer: What exactly happened that day?

Woman: Well, I was texting and he glared at me.

Lawyer: How did you know he was looking at you? Did you look at him because you thought you might be bothering him?

Woman: All I know is that every time I looked at him, he was looking at me.

Lawyer: Who looked first?

Woman: He did! He wouldn't let me text in peace. What is this world coming to when you can't text in a movie theater without someone looking at you?

That would be very damning testimony. :thumbup:

[buggyone]

Yes, and if someone tells you to stop, stop and take it out to the lobby. Don't throw popcorn in the person's face.

Everyone wonders what would have or could have been if the retired captain didn't have a gun. How about asking what would have happened if the nasty texter had just stopped being nasty. Sometimes bad things happen to people who are nasty.

And the retired captain, 71, had been retired for over 20 years. He, like many other retired people, may have been taking multiple prescription drugs which may have impaired his judgement. He might have been taking drugs for depression but, then again, nothing would have happened if the popcorn-jerk had stopped being a jerk.

...and someone being rude to you is reason to kill them?

[Bogie Shooter]

are you waiting for me? Or the nra?:shrug:

nra

[Bogie Shooter]

Yes, and if someone tells you to stop, stop and take it out to the lobby. Don't throw popcorn in the person's face.

Everyone wonders what would have or could have been if the retired captain didn't have a gun. How about asking what would have happened if the nasty texter had just stopped being nasty. Sometimes bad things happen to people who are nasty.

And the retired captain, 71, had been retired for over 20 years. He, like many other retired people, may have been taking multiple prescription drugs which may have impaired his judgement. He might have been taking drugs for depression but, then again, nothing would have happened if the popcorn-jerk had stopped being a jerk.

Like getting killed? Wow!
So we just go off and kill jerks? Wow!

[eweissenbach]

Yes, and if someone tells you to stop, stop and take it out to the lobby. Don't throw popcorn in the person's face.

Everyone wonders what would have or could have been if the retired captain didn't have a gun. How about asking what would have happened if the nasty texter had just stopped being nasty. Sometimes bad things happen to people who are nasty.

And the retired captain, 71, had been retired for over 20 years. He, like many other retired people, may have been taking multiple prescription drugs which may have impaired his judgement. He might have been taking drugs for depression but, then again, nothing would have happened if the popcorn-jerk had stopped being a jerk.

WOW! I am sure the killer hopes you and eleven more like you, are on the jury. Jerk? Seriously, jerk? Well the killer certainly has stopped him from being a "popcorn-jerk". That popcorn can burn if it hits you in the eye!

[Taltarzac725]

Ex-cop challenged woman over texting in SAME movie theater just three weeks ago it emerges as lawyer claims retired cop had 'every right to defend himself and felt threatened' after victim threw popcorn in heated row | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538812/Gunman-shoots-husband-dead-injures-wife-dispute-texting-movie-Florida-theater.html)


My brother and my sister-in-law and I drove by this Cobb Theater which is on the west side of I-75 near Wesley Chapel. http://www.groveshopping.com/directions/

I cannot think up any means of preventing such stupidity as the actions of this shooter as well as the hotheadedness of the popcorn thrower. Throwing the book at the shooter probably will not prevent future outbreaks like this whether or not a gun is involved.

A few weeks ago I parked my golf cart right next to another golf cart at a local store in a parking space. I went into the store to buy some things. After I came out, the driver of a SUV which had been parked to my left was furious with me for parking the golf cart a view inches further to the parking space line than I needed to be.

He beeped his horn numerous times, yelled at me, drove away and then stopped and glared at me from his SUV. Then he turned around and came back in the other direction.

I just froze in the golf cart not wanting to provoke the man any more. He did have his wife with him whom I assume had a hard time of getting into the passenger side.

Still to get red with rage at me for my parking a few inches too close.

This was a senior as well like the person at the Cobb movie theater.

Hope this event of mine and the Cobb theater shooting are lessons that we can all learn from in that we should just try to calm down and reflect a bit before anger takes over our better judgments.

[Villages PL]

WOW! I am sure the killer hopes you and eleven more like you, are on the jury. Jerk? Seriously, jerk? Well the killer certainly has stopped him from being a "popcorn-jerk". That popcorn can burn if it hits you in the eye!

Do you condone the behavior of the "popcorn-jerk"? And do you doubt that he would still be alive today if he hadn't acted like a jerk?

I rest my case. :thumbup:

[Bogie Shooter]

Ex-cop challenged woman over texting in SAME movie theater just three weeks ago it emerges as lawyer claims retired cop had 'every right to defend himself and felt threatened' after victim threw popcorn in heated row | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538812/Gunman-shoots-husband-dead-injures-wife-dispute-texting-movie-Florida-theater.html)


My brother and my sister-in-law and I drove by this Cobb Theater which is on the west side of I-75 near Wesley Chapel. Directions - The Grove at Wesley Chapel (http://www.groveshopping.com/directions/)

I cannot think up any means of preventing such stupidity as the actions of this shooter as well as the hotheadedness of the popcorn thrower. Throwing the book at the shooter probably will not prevent future outbreaks like this whether or not a gun is involved.

A few weeks ago I parked my golf right next to another golf cart at a local store in a parking space. I went into the store to buy some things. After I came out, the driver of a SUV which had been parked to my left was furious with me for parking the golf cart a view inches further to the parking space line than I needed to be.

He beeped his horn numerous times, yelled at me, and then stopped and glared at me from his SUV. Then came back in the other direction.

I just froze in the golf cart not wanting to provoke the man any more. He did have his wife with him whom I assume had a hard time of getting into the passenger side.

Still to get red with rage at me for my parking a few inches too close.

This was a senior as well like the person at the Cobb movie theater.

Hope this event of mine and the Cobb theater shooting are lessons that we can all learn from in that we should just try to calm down and reflect a bit before anger takes over our better judgments.

You are probably very lucky that he was not packing heat!

[Villages PL]

Ex-cop challenged woman over texting in SAME movie theater just three weeks ago it emerges as lawyer claims retired cop had 'every right to defend himself and felt threatened' after victim threw popcorn in heated row | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538812/Gunman-shoots-husband-dead-injures-wife-dispute-texting-movie-Florida-theater.html)


My brother and my sister-in-law and I drove by this Cobb Theater which is on the west side of I-75 near Wesley Chapel. Directions - The Grove at Wesley Chapel (http://www.groveshopping.com/directions/)

I cannot think up any means of preventing such stupidity as the actions of this shooter as well as the hotheadedness of the popcorn thrower. Throwing the book at the shooter probably will not prevent future outbreaks like this whether or not a gun is involved.

A few weeks ago I parked my golf right next to another golf cart at a local store in a parking space. I went into the store to buy some things. After I came out, the driver of a SUV which had been parked to my left was furious with me for parking the golf cart a view inches further to the parking space line than I needed to be.

He beeped his horn numerous times, yelled at me, drove away and then stopped and glared at me from his SUV. Then he turned around and came back in the other direction.

I just froze in the golf cart not wanting to provoke the man any more. He did have his wife with him whom I assume had a hard time of getting into the passenger side.

Still to get red with rage at me for my parking a few inches too close.

This was a senior as well like the person at the Cobb movie theater.

Hope this event of mine and the Cobb theater shooting are lessons that we can all learn from in that we should just try to calm down and reflect a bit before anger takes over our better judgments.

Good advice, Taltarzac. You did the right thing and I would have done the same.

:BigApplause:

[Bogie Shooter]

Do you condone the behavior of the "popcorn-jerk"? And do you doubt that he would still be alive today if he hadn't acted like a jerk?

I rest my case. :thumbup:

There is no case. I do not condone the action of the shooter or the dead man. But to kill over an argument? You know darn well that 20 years ago two guys would have ended up with bloody noses and embarassed wives.
Kill over texting, where, oh where are you coming from.

[Villages PL]

Like getting killed? Wow!
So we just go off and kill jerks? Wow!

I didn't say that, you said that. Your conclusion was based solely on the fact that I called a jerk a jerk. I was simply saying that if he hadn't acted like a jerk, non of this would have happened.

Your conclusion was amazing!

[Carl in Tampa]

Before I provide the statistic I have a bet:

If less than 365 people were murdered (in the U.S) from legal guns last year I will pay YOU XXXX. If more than 365 people were murdered from legal guns last year you will pay ME XXXX.

What shall we make the XXXX?

I know you won't take that bet at any price.

PS: and yes we will not count those stopping a crime (police or otherwise). I'm talking about the number of people arrested and charged with murder whose gun was legally registered to them.

For the last year I could find stats (2011), there were almost 9000 murders from guns. You really think less than 365 (4%) were legally purchased?

You didn't say a legally purchased gun. You said a concealed (legal) gun. If it is not being carried pursuant to a Concealed Weapons License it is not legal.

Rather than grandstanding, why don't you just publish the data and your source so I can look at it?

I would really like to see the data.


.

[eweissenbach]

Do you condone the behavior of the "popcorn-jerk"? And do you doubt that he would still be alive today if he hadn't acted like a jerk?

I rest my case. :thumbup:

First, were you there? Did you observe the alleged popcorn thrower being a "jerk"? Second, are you justifying killing someone for being a jerk? If so, I probably deserve to be dead, along with a majority of people I have known in my life. I can imagine some self-important a-hole confronting me while I was texting my granddaughter DURING THE PREVIEWS, and I would have probably given him a look, or even told him to mind his own business, making me a potential victim. How do you, or any of us know, that there was not a serious reason for this guy to text his 3 YO daughter and/or her sitter DURING THE STINKING PREVIEWS. I am beyond astounded that any thinking human being can rationalize that this was in any way a justifiable or reasonable act.

[Halle]

First, were you there? Did you observe the alleged popcorn thrower being a "jerk"? Second, are you justifying killing someone for being a jerk? If so, I probably deserve to be dead, along with a majority of people I have known in my life. I can imagine some self-important a-hole confronting me while I was texting my granddaughter DURING THE PREVIEWS, and I would have probably given him a look, or even told him to mind his own business, making me a potential victim. How do you, or any of us know, that there was not a serious reason for this guy to text his 3 YO daughter and/or her sitter DURING THE STINKING PREVIEWS. I am beyond astounded that any thinking human being can rationalize that this was in any way a justifiable or reasonable act.

I agree I can not imagine any scenario where it would be appropriate to kill someone for throwing popcorn,texting or being a jerk.

[janmcn]

As has been pointed out, the victim was texting during the previews not during the movie. The theater's policy states "no texting during the movie". So the shooter was not angry the victim was breaking the rules, but breaking his perception of the rules.

The circuit judge in this case did the world a big favor by denying bail and keeping the shooter locked up. Can you imagine living next door to this guy and he doesn't like the way you cut your grass, or wash your car, or water your lawn on the wrong day? It was reported on the news yesterday, that police had been called to his house but no charges were ever filed and they could not release any details.

If this case moves forward to trial and it is like most Florida cases, it won't get to trial for about a year. Mr Reeves won't be such a big shot sitting in jail, especially if he gets put in with the general population.

[Carl in Tampa]

The assailant is already setting up his stand your ground defense. Under Florida's law, which our legislature had the opportunity to revise and did not, a person may use deadly force in a situation where they fear for their own safety. Here is the exact language

"He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

Thus the "right" to use deadly force can be based on the belief that either death/great bodily harm might be imminent OR a forcible felony is about to happen

Here is the Florida definition of forcible felony:

“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

and lastly under Florida law a battery ..

The offense of battery occurs when a person:
1. Actually and intentionally touches or strikes another person against the will of the other; or
2. Intentionally causes bodily harm to another person.

A battery when the victim is aged 65 or older is a felony
784.08 Assault or battery on persons 65 years of age or older; reclassification of offenses In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.

Thus if this shooter believed that he was preventing a battery on an elderly person (himself) his belief may be enough to get him off. Note that the definition does not require that the battery has taken place nor is taking place only that the shooter believes such an event is imminent. There is nothing in the law about who started the incident only about the state of mind of the person choosing to exercise his Florida right to stand your ground. If the shooter reasonably believed that he was about to be struck then one interpretation of this law is that he had a right to use deadly force to prevent the battery of a person aged 65+. A good lawyer can certainly make this argument and a judge can rule without the question going before a jury.

Your logic is impeccable, but it won't work.

I used to have a friend who was a Judge on the Florida Second District Court of Appeals. I used to sit in on the sessions when we were going to lunch together.

One day when I was there a case came before them in which an elderly man had been convicted of murder for shooting a younger man.

The old man was living with the younger man's mother. On the last three occasions, when the younger man came to his mother's house he severely beat and robbed the old man.

On his fourth visit he was shot and killed by the old man as he entered the house.

The lawyer for the old man argued the logic which you have posted. The old man was in fear of great bodily harm (with good reason) and because of his age it was a greater crime (felony.)

The appeal was denied by a three Judge panel.

:shrug:

I think the old man in the appeal case might have fared better if he had let the younger strike at least one blow before he shot him.

,

[shcisamax]

I was simply saying that if he hadn't acted like a jerk, non of this would have happened.

I hate to be contrary because on one hand you are right, none of this would have happened if the guy wasn't a jerk..or at least not texting in the theatre. But I don't think we have a law that allows the defense "I shot him because he was a jerk".
And for good reason, we would all be dead prematurely.

[nitehawk]

Maybe we should go back in time----bring your second and meet at dawn for a duel

[LndLocked]

once again a thread on TOTV has helped me to fine tune my ignore list

[blueash]

Your logic is impeccable, but it won't work.

I used to have a friend who was a Judge on the Florida Second District Court of Appeals. I used to sit in on the sessions when we were going to lunch together.

One day when I was there a case came before them in which an elderly man had been convicted of murder for shooting a younger man.

The old man was living with the younger man's mother. On the last three occasions, when the younger man came to his mother's house he severely beat and robbed the old man.

On his fourth visit he was shot and killed by the old man as he entered the house.

The lawyer for the old man argued the logic which you have posted. The old man was in fear of great bodily harm (with good reason) and because of his age it was a greater crime (felony.)

The appeal was denied by a three Judge panel.

:shrug:

I think the old man might have fared better if he had let the younger strike at least one blow before he shot him.

,


I would appreciate it if you post the date of this incident and if you recall the name of the convicted person. If the shooting occurred before the date of the stand your ground law it does not apply. Also if the appeal was based on an attempt to overturn a jury verdict there needs to be an error in application of law or evidence or legal representation etc for a conviction to be reversed.

[Carl in Tampa]

I would appreciate it if you post the date of this incident and if you recall the name of the convicted person. If the shooting occurred before the date of the stand your ground law it does not apply. Also if the appeal was based on an attempt to overturn a jury verdict there needs to be an error in application of law or evidence or legal representation etc for a conviction to be reversed.

You are correct in your assumption that this case was before the Stand Your Ground law, but that was not the argument being made. The argument was simple self defense, fortified by the enhanced penalties applied for Elder Abuse. The old man might have been acquitted (or not even tried) if he had waited until the young man actually struck a blow.

You are also correct that the argument was in vain because an appeals court only considers possible procedural errors in the conduct of the lower court trial. This is probably the basis for rejecting the appeal.

However, the fact remains that the old man was convicted and did not prevail in appeal although his defense seems reasonable. He needed me on the jury.

[buggyone]

Hopefully, the ex-cop will remain in jail until his trial. He sounds like a real loose cannon -and a jerk!

[janmcn]

Hopefully, the ex-cop will remain in jail until his trial. He sounds like a real loose cannon -and a jerk!


And I forgot to add to my previous post that Reeves was the one breaking the rules by carrying a gun into the theater, not the victim who was texting during the previews. Reeves must be one who thinks the rules only apply to other people, not him.

He didn't look like such a tough guy in his photo today plastered all over the newspapers...sitting there in his bullet-proof vest because he is afraid for his safety. Too bad the victim didn't have the advantage of a bullet-proof vest.

Any judge who would let him out on bond would have blood on their hands if he killed again.

[Villages PL]

I hate to be contrary because on one hand you are right, none of this would have happened if the guy wasn't a jerk..or at least not texting in the theatre. But I don't think we have a law that allows the defense "I shot him because he was a jerk".
And for good reason, we would all be dead prematurely.

Shcisamax, with all due respect, I never said the shooting was justified. Nowhere on this thread will anyone find a statement by me stating that the shooting was justified. I will leave it up to the legal system to sort it all out.

The shooter said he felt he was in danger, or threatened. That's his perception based on being there and reading the body language of the victim. As to who played a major role in bringing about the shooting, I stand by my earlier assessment.

[eweissenbach]

Shcisamax, with all due respect, I never said the shooting was justified. Nowhere on this thread will anyone find a statement by me stating that the shooting was justified. I will leave it up to the legal system to sort it all out.

The shooter said he felt he was in danger, or threatened. That's his perception based on being there and reading the body language of the victim. As to who played a major role in bringing about the shooting, I stand by my earlier assessment.

The father of a three year old had a "major role in bringing about the shooting", because he was concerned about his child? Then the crazy old curmudgeon with the equalizer jumped into action. I cannot fathom what you are reading into this situation, but I hope you don't have a license to carry.

[Villages PL]

The father of a three year old had a "major role in bringing about the shooting", because he was concerned about his child?

In my opinion, having a three year old and being concerned about her would be all the more reason for him to play it safe and not take the chance of inflamming and triggering violence. Although, perhaps he was betting that he would have the upper hand being a young man against an old man. It seems he guessed wrong and now the 3 year old is without a father and there's no father to be concerned about her.


Then the crazy old curmudgeon with the equalizer jumped into action.

Then the lesson to be learned, in my opinion, is: If the retired police captain was a "crazy old curmudgeon", the popcorn thrower should have been careful about arguing and throwing popcorn. One never knows before hand what the consequences will be.


I cannot fathom what you are reading into this situation, but I hope you don't have a license to carry.

It seems you're not understanding what I'm saying and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it to your satisfaction. But I'll give it another try:

Knowing how the popcorn thrower treated an old man, I just can't work up any sympathy for him (but sympathy for his daughter and wife, yes). The popcorn thrower's behavior doesn't justify the shooting, but at the same time I think it's obvious that he would not have been shot if he had backed-off from the very beginning.

[Carl in Tampa]

In my opinion, having a three year old and being concerned about her would be all the more reason for him to play it safe and not take the chance of inflamming and triggering violence. Although, perhaps he was betting that he would have the upper hand being a young man against an old man. It seems he guessed wrong and now the 3 year old is without a father and there's no father to be concerned about her.




Then the lesson to be learned, in my opinion, is: If the retired police captain was a "crazy old curmudgeon", the popcorn thrower should have been careful about arguing and throwing popcorn. One never knows before hand what the consequences will be.




It seems you're not understanding what I'm saying and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it to your satisfaction. But I'll give it another try:

Knowing how the popcorn thrower treated an old man, I just can't work up any sympathy for him (but sympathy for his daughter and wife, yes). The popcorn thrower's behavior doesn't justify the shooting, but at the same time I think it's obvious that he would not have been shot if he had backed-off from the very beginning.


I think the point you make is valid and could be generalized as "never get into a confrontation over a petty issue."

The actions of the victim do not justify the shooting, but it demonstrates the folly of verbal conflicts with strangers. The danger is that the other person may be irrational or hot tempered and armed with a deadly weapon.

In my own experience I saw an argument over an electric fan escalate to a conflict that resulted in the wounding of one man, the death of a deputy sheriff, the maiming of another deputy, and the death of the man who shot the deputies.

.

[eweissenbach]

In my opinion, having a three year old and being concerned about her would be all the more reason for him to play it safe and not take the chance of inflamming and triggering violence. Although, perhaps he was betting that he would have the upper hand being a young man against an old man. It seems he guessed wrong and now the 3 year old is without a father and there's no father to be concerned about her. [QUOTE]

Play it safe, and not text during some previews, or throw some harmless popcorn at some busybody who thinks he's in charge? Yeah he guessed wrong alright, should have known the old boy was packing heat in a dangerous place like a movie theatre, which bans firearms by the way!


[QUOTE]Then the lesson to be learned, in my opinion, is: If the retired police captain was a "crazy old curmudgeon", the popcorn thrower should have been careful about arguing and throwing popcorn. One never knows before hand what the consequences will be. [QUOTE]

And how is one to determine that any person is a dangerous armed madman? You are really obsessed by the "popcorn thrower", as though that was the epitome of an out of control lunatic.


[QUOTE]It seems you're not understanding what I'm saying and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it to your satisfaction. But I'll give it another try:

Knowing how the popcorn thrower treated an old man, I just can't work up any sympathy for him (but sympathy for his daughter and wife, yes). The popcorn thrower's behavior doesn't justify the shooting, but at the same time I think it's obvious that he would not have been shot if he had backed-off from the very beginning.

Serious question, are you a relative or personal friend of the shooter. If so, I might come Somewhat closer to understanding your position. You say "knowing how the 'popcorn thrower' treated an old man",just how do you "know" how the old man was treated? You can't work up any sympathy for a young father shot dead for virtually no good reason; WOW. Were you in the theater that night? By the way, the "popcorn thrower", would be more appropriately called the victim, of a senseless murder. I believe I understand what you are saying, I simply can't fathom how you can say, or even think it. Probably the best thing you can do is let this thread go to a distant page. Ed

[Villages PL]

To understand where I'm coming from: I'm trying to look at the situation objectively rather than subjectively loaded-down with emotion. Emotion tends to obscure rather than claify.

[Villages PL]

I think the point you make is valid and could be generalized as "never get into a confrontation over a petty issue."

The actions of the victim do not justify the shooting, but it demonstrates the folly of verbal conflicts with strangers. The danger is that the other person may be irrational or hot tempered and armed with a deadly weapon.

In my own experience I saw an argument over an electric fan escalate to a conflict that resulted in the wounding of one man, the death of a deputy sheriff, the maiming of another deputy, and the death of the man who shot the deputies.

.

Thanks, Carl, for getting it. You made my day!......:thumbup:

[janmcn]

To understand where I'm coming from: I'm trying to look at the situation objectively rather than subjectively loaded-down with emotion. Emotion tends to obscure rather than claify.


In other words, you have to have a heart to have sympathy for the victim or his wife or his 22 month old daughter, enough said.

[DaleMN]

For anyone unable to find sympathy for a father and husband dead because of such a trivial incident is beyond my comprehension.