Ukraine

[TexaninVA]

The situation in Ukraine is volatile, complicated and very bothersome. It's also potentially very dangerous depending on how it unfolds.

From victory in the Cold War and the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1989 ... we've now come to a resurgent Russia that is armed to the teeth and now being led by a hard core nationalist ... Vladimir Putin. He is a former KGB officer and his personal net worth last time I checked was about $20 Billion US.

In the meantime, I will make two assertions .... if your adversary or enemy does not respect you, he likely does not fear you, and will thus take risky actoins to maximize his gain. In short, in the world of foreign policy, weakness mixed with empty words, is actually quite provocative.

My second point is that military power with the right leadership, when all is said and done, is still crucial in the game of realpolitck ... whether we like it or not.

[manaboutown]

The situation in Ukraine is volatile, complicated and very bothersome. It's also potentially very dangerous depending on how it unfolds.

From victory in the Cold War and the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1989 ... we've now come to a resurgent Russia that is armed to the teeth and now being led by a hard core nationalist ... Vladimir Putin. He is a former KGB officer and his personal net worth last time I checked was about $20 Billion US.

In the meantime, I will make two assertions .... if your adversary or enemy does not respect you, he likely does not fear you, and will thus take risky actoins to maximize his gain. In short, in the world of foreign policy, weakness mixed with empty words, is actually quite provocative.

My second point is that military power with the right leadership, when all is said and done, is still crucial in the game of realpolitck ... whether we like it or not.

:agree:

Putin is smart and aggressive. He has carefully assessed the strength and willingness of any opposition to fight him and made his move.

[ilovetv]

As I heard in an interview last night with Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), Chairman of the House’s Select Committee on Intelligence:

“I think Putin is playing chess and I think we’re playing marbles."

[Taltarzac725]

As I heard in an interview last night with Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), Chairman of the House’s Select Committee on Intelligence:

“I think Putin is playing chess and I think we’re playing marbles."

That's interesting. The UN even without its really having much in the way of teeth-- except peace keeping forces, public opinion, boycotts and the like-- should handle this problem with the US as one of the countries involved. Just one of many. If Putin is playing chess, then we go to a game of defensive football with the best of what the rest of the world has to offer.

[Bucco]

This is a very tense situation. I think, as of now, we are doing what we can do.

Honestly at night I find myself in awe at the entire world. Just add Ukraine to Syria which continues unabated and the pictures make you cry, Iran, which ignores world agreements, Libya where armed rioters stormed parliament, Bosnia where protests and demonstrations continue and Venzuela which is full of protests.

It really puts things in context, for me anyway, in this country what we worry and stress about. Children are shot down and killed in Libya by the hundreds.

Prayers to all leaders of the world to do, say, and be the right thing.

[pivo]

First I am very patriotic as a vet but I think if we had a leader
in our country like Putin, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

Putin is worth 20 million nothing to what the Clintons are worth.

[samhass]

So..what would you have our government do to prove our strength? Would you have us go to war with Russia?

[billethkid]

we have advertised what we can, cannot do military wise with all the recent speeches about budget cuts.
We have demonstrated time and again what we will not do, to this point, no matter the offense against us.

What I would have us do is not get involved in those countries where we do not have American assets of any kind invested.

I would make sure the priority is for America to not project weakness because of financial constraints. To our enemies it is good news. To we the people it just makes us wonder how we can be spending billions on other programs and projects that have nothing to do with the safety and security of the country.

With the likes of China and Russia doing just the opposite there should be more than just a budgetary concern mentality among our lawmakers.

The world now knows the USA is positioning itself to give up it's position of military dominance. The world now knows the USA can only handle one major skirmish at a time. Those who would harm us before they knew this can only be encouraged to bide their time....which they are better at than we are.....and when we are busy else where in the world....they can do anything they want anywhere they want including here at home.

Where is the deterrence in a weakened, emasculated military? There is none.

We are fast becoming a paper tiger......no growl....no teeth.....but we will send a shame on you note to our adversaries.

Will our allies still be as loyal when they know we cannot respond?

[TexaninVA]

So..what would you have our government do to prove our strength? Would you have us go to war with Russia?

It's not a question of proving our strength now ...ie while we're in a crisis, it's too late for that when our weakness is painfully obvious to everyone in the world. Plus, no one wants a war with Russia for a lot of obvious reasons.

The real tragedy is our leadership let us get here in the first place. At some point, someone has to be held accountable. When a leader draws red lines, does nothing when they're crossed and then goes on to the next issue as if it had never happened, it tells the serious bad guys in the world (Putin, Iran, NK, etc) we are not to be feared. Is anyone surprised by this??

Deterrence is all about making the other guy think that you will actually do something harmful to him if he crosses the line thus incentivizing him not to. That's my primary point ... weakness, drift and indecision at the senior most levels of the USG is highly provocative. historically, that is how wars get started ... not prevented.

It's really somewhat counterintuitive ... peace through strength. That includes a strong leader at the top and one who's backed by a military second to none. We are no longer in that safer and more secure situation unfortunately.

[Bucco]

So..what would you have our government do to prove our strength? Would you have us go to war with Russia?

I do not think anyone at all....thinks that in anyway shape or form. Not sure why that rhetoric is even in play.

What is being said, from my perspective is....for example....

IRAN

We touted our skill in negotiating a pact with them, and dropped the sanctions. Very proud we were.

"Iran is moving ahead with a nuclear program that U.S. officials said would be frozen, and it is now clear the USA and other world powers are willing to accept an Iranian enrichment program that Iran refuses to abandon, say analysts.

Iran has continued research and development on new, far more efficient machines for producing uranium fuel that could power reactors or bombs, and its stockpile of low enriched uranium has actually grown, according to a report by Institute for Science and International Security."

Iran advancing its nuclear program despite pact with West (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/28/iran-nuclear-economic-advance/5835935/)

This is what Iran said when that pact was put together..

""Do you know what the Geneva agreement means? It means the surrender of the big powers before the great Iranian nation," Hassan Rouhani told a crowd in the oil-rich province of Khuzestan."

Iran calls nuclear pact a Western 'surrender' (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/13/senate-support-grows-for-iran-sanctions-bill/4459207/)

SYRIA

We acceeded to Russia on an agreement on Syria. Retired ambassador Robert Ford to Syria, recently retired...a smatter of his recent remarks.

"The US threat of a military strike last year resulted in a chemical weapons agreement because Syria and its Russian backer believed the US meant it. Ford warned that such credibility could be easily squandered if the US threatened military involvement again without being willing to follow through – whatever the unpredictable end."

US Ambassador Ford on what's gone wrong in Syria and where it's headed - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0302/US-Ambassador-Ford-on-what-s-gone-wrong-in-Syria-and-where-it-s-headed)

Again, we made an agreement but agreements require both sides to do what they gotta do.

NO...I do not think that anyone expects this country to wage any war. I think the frustration is watching agreement after agreement be a one way deal. I think what you are hearing is frustration.

I think our administration is doing all it can do with this current situation in Ukraine. I surely want no more strong threats......hoping we can get UN on board, but that is totally fruitless as Russia has veto on any resolution !!

[Taltarzac725]

Threat of sanctions escalates in Russia-Ukraine dispute - Doug Palmer and Eric Bradner - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/russia-ukraine-sanctions-104159.html)

Interesting article on what might be done with Russia because of the Ukraine problem.

I do not think we need someone who looks like a thug in the White House, just to be respected.

[Bavarian]

Ukraine was a happy place six years ago when my wife and I were there on a cruise. But in Sevastopol, tour bus guide said no more KGB under bus, take pictures of Russian sub base, etc. The country was leaning toward the EU. But many people on street hostile to us foreigners.

Most of the oil and gas pipelines from Russia to Europe go through Ukraine so EU may be afraid of pushing Russia out.
Seems the Consecration of Russia to The Immaculate Heart of Mary as Mary called for at Fatima was not done.

[Chi-Town]

What did we do when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008? Perhaps that can give some guidance.

[TexaninVA]

Threat of sanctions escalates in Russia-Ukraine dispute - Doug Palmer and Eric Bradner - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/russia-ukraine-sanctions-104159.html)

Interesting article on what might be done with Russia because of the Ukraine problem.

I do not think we need someone who looks like a thug in the White House, just to be respected.

What are you even talking about??? Who said we need someone who looks like a thug? Not sure where you even got that.

We were talking about having a strong leader ... think Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Reagan etc.

[JourneyOfLife]

Russia's claim of interest is to protect their Naval installation.

The Ukraine entered into a 25 year agreement to allow a Russian Naval Base on their soil.

2010 Kharkiv Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian%E2%80%93Russian_Naval_Base_for_Natu ral_Gas_treaty)

That move alarmed Ukrainians early in Yanukovych first term.

I think the last straw was that latest deal between Yanukovych and Putin to distanced the Ukraine from the EU for some bailout money, was seen as the first step of the Ukraine being sucked into the Eurasian Economic Union led by Russia.

Eurasian Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Union)

Plus, in true Post Soviet style of political reign, Yanukovych made himself rich on the spoils of his office... while the country was collapsing economically.


That former president did a number on the Ukraine.

[Bucco]

Threat of sanctions escalates in Russia-Ukraine dispute - Doug Palmer and Eric Bradner - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/russia-ukraine-sanctions-104159.html)

Interesting article on what might be done with Russia because of the Ukraine problem.

I do not think we need someone who looks like a thug in the White House, just to be respected.

I sure wish I understood the meaning of your last sentence

[redwitch]

Just out of curiosity, how is this thread not political?

[Bucco]

Just out of curiosity, how is this thread not political?

Your point is very well taken. I, however, like to think that there is given a bit more latitude in situations like this. This has a very high negative potential...to close our eyes and pretend it is not happening is true nativity, and bad.

It should not be a bashing party for sure, but with elections comes responsibility.....to stifle folks for any reason, is wrong.

I will agree that the criticism should be handled with respect, but our country has a very serious vested interest in this.

[Bavarian]

Just out of curiosity, how is this thread not political?

The prevention of WWIII is not political. It is something everyone in the World should be working and praying to avoid. A World War with Nukes will not be good for anyone.

[JourneyOfLife]

There is a chance the outcome with the Ukraine could be similar to Georgia. Break away republics recognized and protected by Russia.

Occupied territories of Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_territories_of_Georgia)



The Ukraine might end up broken in two nations, an Eastern nation that borders Russia and Western one that will align with the EU common market.... Maybe even NATO, but probably not as a full-fledged member at first.

Russia does not want NATO right on its border.

[Taltarzac725]

It's not a question of proving our strength now ...ie while we're in a crisis, it's too late for that when our weakness is painfully obvious to everyone in the world. Plus, no one wants a war with Russia for a lot of obvious reasons.

The real tragedy is our leadership let us get here in the first place. At some point, someone has to be held accountable. When a leader draws red lines, does nothing when they're crossed and then goes on to the next issue as if it had never happened, it tells the serious bad guys in the world (Putin, Iran, NK, etc) we are not to be feared. Is anyone surprised by this??

Deterrence is all about making the other guy think that you will actually do something harmful to him if he crosses the line thus incentivizing him not to. That's my primary point ... weakness, drift and indecision at the senior most levels of the USG is highly provocative. historically, that is how wars get started ... not prevented.

It's really somewhat counterintuitive ... peace through strength. That includes a strong leader at the top and one who's backed by a military second to none. We are no longer in that safer and more secure situation unfortunately.

Facing a giant like Russia which has a nuclear arsenal is a far cry from the ground wars fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. And world politics of Reagan's era are very different from the one President Obama faces. You do have to bend the lines so to speak to prevent nuclear war.

I see no real comparison say between Hitler and Chamberlain and the chess game they played with European pieces with Obama, Putin, and the various organizations involved in world politics.

[rubicon]

What we do know:

Ukraine is a vital and strategic piece of the rebuilding of the USSR.

Putin is and always will be in a KGB mode.

Many of the countries we consider enemy have taken a measure of our President and concluded as did Nicolas Sarkosy upon his first meeting with him stating "il est faible" He is weak

The UN is ineffective and worthless in my view

Finally if we don't act aggressively we better get ready from more challenges from enemies around the world.

[samhass]

First I am very patriotic as a vet but I think if we had a leader
in our country like Putin, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

Putin is worth 20 million nothing to what the Clintons are worth.

With this post and another, YOU are making this political in an ugly way. Are you unable to discuss the issue without throwing darts? Please. People want to discuss this issue as Americans.

[Chi-Town]

What we do know:

Ukraine is a vital and strategic piece of the rebuilding of the USSR.

Putin is and always will be in a KGB mode.

Many of the countries we consider enemy have taken a measure of our President and concluded as did Nicolas Sarkosy upon his first meeting with him stating "il est faible" He is weak

The UN is ineffective and worthless in my view

Finally if we don't act aggressively we better get ready from more challenges from enemies around the world.

A French president called our President weak? That's rich. Its amazing that a leader with so much insight lost the election to Francois Hollande, a Socialist.

[JourneyOfLife]

As long as this is contained near the border of Russia, the US and NATO are not going to do much other than protest.

That goes no matter who is in the White House. To much trade going on.

The Ukraine entered into an agreement with Russia, and that will be their rationale for doing what they did.

The USA and Western Europe need to sleep with one eye open as far as Russia is concerned.


But, on the other side of the coin, several of the western European Nations have invaded Russia over history... the last time being WWII.

So, there is a lot of mistrust to go around.

IMO, the US is best served by doing nothing rash and see how it develops.

One big problem is that Putin is a fairly young dictator, albeit elected somehow. As long as things are improving economically in Russia, he will be a bit of a hero.

We should take the long view with Russia if possible. Putin won't be in power forever.

[Bucco]

With this post and another, YOU are making this political in an ugly way. Are you unable to discuss the issue without throwing darts? Please. People want to discuss this issue as Americans.


I support this post !!!!

Listen, I have my own views, but there is no reason for such posts. Enough division in this country and targeting individuals is just wrong....not as easy as it seems nor as simple.

I felt that way during all the criticisms in past administration and it would be a bit phoney of me not to say the same thing here.

Discuss the situation, what you think maybe we should do, the political ramifications worldwide, motives, etc, BUT save some of this rhetoric for our own political process.

[janmcn]

According to NBC News and the Wall St Journal, the pentagon has suspended all military operations with Russia.

[TexaninVA]

Facing a giant like Russia which has a nuclear arsenal is a far cry from the ground wars fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. And world politics of Reagan's era are very different from the one President Obama faces. You do have to bend the lines so to speak to prevent nuclear war.

I see no real comparison say between Hitler and Chamberlain and the chess game they played with European pieces with Obama, Putin, and the various organizations involved in world politics.

Well, of course the politics, players and particulars are different from the 80s, but the basic drivers are not. Expansive authoritative regimes will push and probe for weakness. When they find it, they push more. That's what's happening now IMHO.

Actually Reagan had to deal with 4 different Russian leaders (Brezhnev, Andropov, Cherenkov and Gorbachev). The issue of nukes was always rather prominent. I've always thought it quasi-miraculous that we won the Cold War without a (nuclear) shot being fired.

I'm not saying Ukraine is the Sudetenland, but I can see where others could make that comparison. I do think the historical debate pretty much always comes down to what is the best way to prevent war ... strength or weakness?

[TexaninVA]

I support this post !!!!

Listen, I have my own views, but there is no reason for such posts. Enough division in this country and targeting individuals is just wrong....not as easy as it seems nor as simple.

I felt that way during all the criticisms in past administration and it would be a bit phoney of me not to say the same thing here.

Discuss the situation, what you think maybe we should do, the political ramifications worldwide, motives, etc, BUT save some of this rhetoric for our own political process.

I very much agree as well. Let's have a thoughtful discussion on what could become a crucial national security topic in the near future. If our senior USG leaders are not doing what needs to be done to protect us, criticism of policy is appropriate. But, let's not resort to name calling. That is out of place and retards vs advances the discussion.

[senior citizen]

An interesting viewpoint from a very proud group of Ukrainian Canadians at InfoUkes.com which I turned to when our U.S. news was not giving too much detail into the back story of why the protestors were there in the first place........ InfoUkes was very helpful to me in explaining my own Ukrainian roots (a decade ago).....

Russia has invaded Ukrainian soil
in a sneak unprovoked attack

Euromaidan protests for civil society.............

http://www.infoukes.com/euromaidan/ (http://www.infoukes.com/euromaidan/)


　
　
http://www.infoukes.com/history/ (http://www.infoukes.com/history/)




The first hyperlink above is extremely informative from the viewpoint of the Ukrainians (if anyone has the patience and interest to read it in its entirety as I did.)
　

[JourneyOfLife]

Looks like "Fearless Leader" backed off a bit. (reference to the old bullwinkle cartoons)



(Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Russia saw no need to use military force in the Crimea region of Ukraine for now, in remarks apparently intended to ease East-West tension over fears of war in the former Soviet republic.



No need to use military force in Ukraine for now: Putin (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140304)

[rubicon]

A French president called our President weak? That's rich. Its amazing that a leader with so much insight lost the election to Francois Hollande, a Socialist.

Hi Chi Town: what you say maybe true but he has not been the only one making that assertion in this country and around the world. One aspect to test the validity of criticism by others of their view of you is that: it has been said by many others. In that way you can ascertain its objectivity.


Personal Best Regards

[senior citizen]

Ukrainians have a lot of national pride, and always have, especially after becoming finally independent of foreign powers (as during Lithuanian, Polish, Hungarian, Austrian, Russian, Czechoslovakian and Romanian rulership.....ditto, Soviet Union, etc.)


My own maternal grandmother was born when the Austrian-Hungarian Empire ruled over her part of Ukraine (Galicia at the time or Halychyna in the Carpathian Mountains region). Franz Josef was the ruler at the time of her birth in the 1892. (Austrian-Hungarian Empire) Her little village was Poliany/Polany Surovichny in Sanok (Sianik)......I have the Austrian Cadastral records with the small population at the time it was taken, with her family's surname. Just one family in that village, plus one other in a far off village. Nothing like the HUGE Italian family units I researched.


Some doing their genealogy assumed their ancestors came from Austria when Austria was listed on the ships' manifest for country of origin, but those who delved deeper could see that it was just another rulership at the time.


My grandmother could speak Ukrainian, Polish, Lithuanian and Hungarian but Ukrainian and Polish were her two dominant languages. Their wooden churches were burned down by the Polish soldiers and others..........


Modern day trials and tribulations of the Ukrainian men and their subsequent underground movements, have been recorded. It's a people that have always been overpowered by some outside rulership.


The Carpathian Mountain area had various "tribes"; it was all a fascinating journey (although quite complex) into my Ukrainian roots (approximately 12 years ago).......the Italian history was much easier to comprehend, that's for sure. Napoleon was a stickler for record keeping......plus it was an easier history to follow.....and easier language to have translated.


However, somehow, my grandmother's people always knew what they were and what they were NOT.


They knew they were descended from the Kieven "Rus" but were not Russian.

She would tell her daughter (my mom) "We are "White Russians", Rusyns, Ukies, Ruthenians but NOT Russian."


My grandmother came to America as an orphaned 15 year old in 1907; my mom was born here in 1911. Her dad also came from Ukraine (Austrian-Hungarian Empire....Galica/Halychyna region; Greek Catholics)


Ukrainians shared the same cyrillic alphabet, however the Ukrainian language is different than the Russian language.


I could not have accomplished the genealogy which I ultimately did, without the wonderful, generous, kindhearted help of the Greek Catholic /Byzantine priests, scholars, historians and fellow "Ukie" seekers on the journey. So many were young college professors and older ones as well, from Connecticut to Washington, D.C., including Canada and the metropolitan cities of the U.S. A generous bunch, are the Ukrainians. They know their history, for sure. A complex one, for sure.


So many Americans today do not even know their ethnic backgrounds, unless they are the grandchildren of the immigrants who came in the late 1800's and early 1900's to America.


For Ukraine to finally gain their independence only increased their national pride, even among the descendants in the U.S. and in Canada.....which has a huge population of Ukies as the "plains" provinces in Canada are similar to the "breadbasket" of Ukraine.

They maintain their heritage and the Ukrainian kids are taught their history, language and ethnic culture. Most of all, they all know they are NOT Russian.


It's a matter of pride, in my humble opinion.


For those interested, Wikipedia has a great, very long, history of all the various "rulerships" of Ukraine; scroll down beyond the middle part of it.....to see how truly complicated their history is.....


If , perchance, any others of Ukrainian descent are reading this.......their ancient history is totally fascinating........at first it will give you a headache, but then it will suddenly, all at once, "click in"........


InfoUkies.com has a great little story on "Does your Baba Come from Austria?"


Wonderful group of Canadians........are those at InfoUkies...


As anyone can imagine, I tend to be on the Ukrainian side in all of this present day turmoil with Russia. I find it very very sad that old territorial issues have to become prominent again following that beautiful Russian hosted winter Olympics in Sochi. They should have rested on their laurels. Russia also has a rich history that is well worth reading about.
　
　
　

[TexaninVA]

Ukrainians have a lot of national pride, and always have, especially after becoming finally independent of foreign powers (as during Lithuanian, Polish, Hungarian, Austrian, Russian, Czechoslovakian and Romanian rulership.....ditto, Soviet Union, etc.)


My own maternal grandmother was born when the Austrian-Hungarian Empire ruled over her part of Ukraine (Galicia at the time or Halychyna in the Carpathian Mountains region). Franz Josef was the ruler at the time of her birth in the 1892. (Austrian-Hungarian Empire) Her little village was Poliany/Polany Surovichny in Sanok (Sianik)......I have the Austrian Cadastral records with the small population at the time it was taken, with her family's surname. Just one family in that village, plus one other in a far off village. Nothing like the HUGE Italian family units I researched.


Some doing their genealogy assumed their ancestors came from Austria when Austria was listed on the ships' manifest for country of origin, but those who delved deeper could see that it was just another rulership at the time.


My grandmother could speak Ukrainian, Polish, Lithuanian and Hungarian but Ukrainian and Polish were her two dominant languages. Their wooden churches were burned down by the Polish soldiers and others..........


Modern day trials and tribulations of the Ukrainian men and their subsequent underground movements, have been recorded. It's a people that have always been overpowered by some outside rulership.


The Carpathian Mountain area had various "tribes"; it was all a fascinating journey (although quite complex) into my Ukrainian roots (approximately 12 years ago).......the Italian history was much easier to comprehend, that's for sure. Napoleon was a stickler for record keeping......plus it was an easier history to follow.....and easier language to have translated.


However, somehow, my grandmother's people always knew what they were and what they were NOT.


They knew they were descended from the Kieven "Rus" but were not Russian.

She would tell her daughter (my mom) "We are "White Russians", Rusyns, Ukies, Ruthenians but NOT Russian."


My grandmother came to America as an orphaned 15 year old in 1907; my mom was born here in 1911. Her dad also came from Ukraine (Austrian-Hungarian Empire....Galica/Haylchyna region; Greek Catholics)


Ukrainians shared the same cyrillic alphabet, however the Ukrainian language is different than the Russian language.


I could not have accomplished the genealogy which I ultimately did, without the wonderful, generous, kindhearted help of the Greek Catholic /Byzantine priests, scholars, historians and fellow "Ukie" seekers on the journey. So many were young college professors and older ones as well, from Connecticut to Washington, D.C., including Canada and the metropolitan cities of the U.S. A generous bunch, are the Ukrainains. They know their history, for sure. A complex one, for sure.


So many Americans today do not even know their ethnic backgrounds, unless they are the grandchildren of the immigrants who came in the late 1800's and early 1900's to America.


For Ukraine to finally gain their independence only increased their national pride, even among the descendants in the U.S. and in Canada.....which has a huge population of Ukies as the "plains" provinces in Canada are similar to the "breadbasket" of Ukraine.

They maintain their heritage and the Ukrainian kids are taught their history, language and ethnic culture. Most of all, they all know they are NOT Russian.


It's a matter of pride, in my humble opinion.


For those interested, Wikipedia has a great, very long, history of all the various "rulerships" of Ukraine; scroll down beyond the middle part of it.....to see how truly complicated their history is.....


If , perchance, any others of Ukrainian descent are reading this.......their ancient history is totally fascinating........at first it will give you a headache, but then it will suddenly, all at once, "click in"........


InfoUkies.com has a great little story on "Does your Baba Come from Austria?"


Wonderful group of Canadians........are those at InfoUkies...


As anyone can imagine, I tend to be on the Ukrainian side in all of this present day turmoil with Russia. I find it very very sad that old territorial issues have to become prominent again following that beautiful Russian hosted winter Olympics in Sochi. They should have rested on their laurels. Russia also has a rich history that is well worth reading about.
　
　
　


I really enjoyed reading your most informative post. Thanks so much for taking the time to write it. My ancestors are a motley mix like most of us ( I say that in a positive way! :) ) In addition to Cherokee Indian, English and a few other strains, a big chunk is from Czechoslovakia ... my great grandfather dodged the Austro-Hungarian emperor's draft and came to America in the late 19th century ... thank God he did.

In any event, I feel sympathy towards the Ukrainians. They are pawns on the chessboard. They gave up their nuclear deterrent in the mid-90s, for valid diplomatic reasons. We provided security assurances in exchange. Thus, the Ukrainians' fate is no longer in their own hands but in those of various other political leaders ...ie Russian, US, EU etc. We also have a certain moral obligation to them as a result.

However, I think the real driver, if you analyze it, is the obvious one -- money. Ukraine has shale gas reserves that, with fracking, means someone can make a lot of rubles/dollars etc. Putin and his elites are ultimately seeking those big bucks IMHO, and given their KGB backgrounds in geopolitics backed by a very modern military, pose a vexing challenge for US diplomacy and leadership.

[Golfingnut]

Ukraine, no big deal. We're already on the road to fixing it.

Diplomatic exit for Ukraine? Talks, $15B in EU aid | News OK (http://newsok.com/diplomatic-exit-for-ukraine-talks-15b-in-eu-aid/article/feed/658527)

It is not the crisis cable news try's to make it.

[senior citizen]

Everyone comes from a different world viewpoint based on their past life history, not to mention being touched by others who have crossed their paths in this lifetime.


Although I have not lived in a soviet oppressed country, nor a country that has been dominated and over thrown for centuries by various more powerful armies, I have had the pleasure of being friends with a wonderful Hungarian lady born and raised in Budapest (now deceased, but we were next door neighbors and close friends for a very long time).


She told me in great detail of being raised in a dominated country where their religion had to go "underground", their wonderful culture and history diminished, etc., their paths in life chosen for them as young students....etc.


She came as a young 19 year old with her mother and her elderly grandmother, following the Hungarian Revolution, to West Liberty Ohio, sponsored by very kind Menonite families.


This new wave of immigrants came to love our country but still thought longingly of the "old country".......I heard zillions of stories about growing up in the Hungary that was then influenced by soviet domination.....but also of their rich culture and history which produced many talented poets, composers and so on.....


She'd bring me books on the history of Hungary (when later in her life she returned to her homeland to visit, with her husband and children).
Plus, that wonderful Hungarian paprika.


Like the Ukrainians, they never forgot their rich heritage, culture, music, poetry and national pride.


We all take our freedoms for granted, but the countries that have been under the yoke of others, such as Ukraine, .......and Hungary.....and Czechoslovakia, ......the ones who actually lived through the times of oppression.........can teach us all a lesson on why it's a big deal or not a big deal.
************************************************** **********


To "Tex"........I agree with all that you've stated. I also read of how Ukraine gave up their nuclear capabilities, etc. as part of an agreement.
************************************************** **********************
"""""The Revolution in Hungary in October 1956 brought a new wave of immigrants to the United States: approximately 41,000 refugees were admitted to this country.


The refugees of 1956 were different from previous waves in many ways. They were the youngest group of Hungarian immigrants and many possessed a technical trade and/or several years of university study. They evoked great public sympathy in the United States because of their fight against Communism and numerous opportunities, such as scholarship programs, job placement and financial assistance were made available to them.


The Revolution was unexpected, the community only absorbed some 6,000 Displaced Persons. Hungarians in Cleveland reacted quickly and determinedly; however, within the first days of the crisis mass rallies were organized and community organizations initiated relief programs. According to one major Cleveland daily newspaper, as many as 5,000 were present at each of the rallies held to protest the invasion of Soviet forces and plead for assistance for Hungary. College students held silent vigils.""""""
************************************************** **********************
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956)
Above hyperlink leads to very interesting history of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. The Hungarians were also a super proud people.
******************


All of this dialogue makes me think of an old saying, of which I am paraphrasing......."if we don't learn from our mistakes, history is bound to repeat itself".....
　
　
　

[DianeM]

I think we should mind our own business and not play 'big brother' to the world. Other countries should fight their own battles. As long as you're not on my coastline, we need to stay out of it. We should not risk more lives and resources. No one would come to our aid if we had a problem.

[TexaninVA]

I think we should mind our own business and not play 'big brother' to the world. Other countries should fight their own battles. As long as you're not on my coastline, we need to stay out of it. We should not risk more lives and resources. No one would come to our aid if we had a problem.

Actually, on the emotional level, I'm quite sympathetic with your point of view and always have been. I would term it as classically American isolationist, and conservative in its historical orgins. Kind of like Switzerland but with nukes, and an immigration policy restricted to people who can come here and contribute vs require public assistance.

On the other hand, with ICBMs etc, the ocean as a protective barrier don't work anymore. I also believe that no one can reasonably deny that, since WWII, American power has on the whole been a force for stabilization and the expansion of world trade which is historically good for everyone. I know some people will say America is "the problem" (not saying you're in that camp by the way) but that's really leftover progressivism even though still popular in academia and elsewhere.

In the instance of Ukraine, direct American military power should not be used for many reasons, not the least of which is we would lose in a direct confrontation. But, the use of diplomatic skill, sanctions and other means is helpful. The administration, even if late to react, seems to be trying to figure out what the right mix would be ...not an easy task for anyone to do.

[billethkid]

AND once upon a time as THE superpower with the strongest military on the planet when we decided to get/be involved there was never "much" of a question whether we could win or not.

Our strategy of recent years to be in it but don't make anybody mad and for sure don't do what ever it takes to win PLUS the erosion of our military might PLUS our adversaries count on us not hitting back.

So the decision to "do something" is very different TODAY!

Teddy Roosevelt had it right....speak softly BUT CARRY A BIG STICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DianeM]

Actually, on the emotional level, I'm quite sympathetic with your point of view and always have been. I would term it as classically American isolationist, and conservative in its historical orgins. Kind of like Switzerland but with nukes, and an immigration policy restricted to people who can come here and contribute vs require public assistance.

On the other hand, with ICBMs etc, the ocean as a protective barrier don't work anymore. I also believe that no one can reasonably deny that, since WWII, American power has on the whole been a force for stabilization and the expansion of world trade which is historically good for everyone. I know some people will say America is "the problem" (not saying you're in that camp by the way) but that's really leftover progressivism even though still popular in academia and elsewhere.

In the instance of Ukraine, direct American military power should not be used for many reasons, not the least of which is we would lose in a direct confrontation. But, the use of diplomatic skill, sanctions and other means is helpful. The administration, even if late to react, seems to be trying to figure out what the right mix would be ...not an easy task for anyone to do.

You're right - I'm not in the "America is the problem" camp at all. And yes, I'm becoming more and more isolationist which is just because I hate losing good people to fight other folks battles. I'm all for diplomacy - just not for armed warfare. Isn't this kinda like what started the Korean war and the Vietnam war?

[DianeM]

AND once upon a time as THE superpower with the strongest military on the planet when we decided to get/be involved there was never "much" of a question whether we could win or not.

Our strategy of recent years to be in it but don't make anybody mad and for sure don't do what ever it takes to win PLUS the erosion of our military might PLUS our adversaries count on us not hitting back.

So the decision to "do something" is very different TODAY!

Teddy Roosevelt had it right....speak softly BUT CARRY A BIG STICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm in your ball park to a tee. You just said it much better than I could. :bigbow:

[ron122049]

As I heard in an interview last night with Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), Chairman of the House’s Select Committee on Intelligence:

“I think Putin is playing chess and I think we’re playing marbles."

That's what we get with a commander in chief with no big league experience.

[buggyone]

We have no reason to get involved in Ukraine just as we never had a good reason to be involved in Vietnam. That cost over 58,000 American lives.

[Golfingnut]

We have no reason to get involved in Ukraine just as we never had a good reason to be involved in Vietnam. That cost over 58,000 American lives.

Bingo. Lost so much and never should have been there.

[Bucco]

We have no reason to get involved in Ukraine just as we never had a good reason to be involved in Vietnam. That cost over 58,000 American lives.

You may be right, but the time is coming. Recall that some called Russia as the greatest geo political threat to this country and were mocked.

I do not believe this will be the end.

[gomoho]

Reports just coming over the air a Russian tank has crashed through a gate of a post in Crimea. Why can't they just wait till the vote on the 16th? Oh yeah, we're dealing with a bully.

[TexaninVA]

We have no reason to get involved in Ukraine just as we never had a good reason to be involved in Vietnam. That cost over 58,000 American lives.

I sympathize with your point of view. However, I think that, irrespective of what we want or our feelings etc on the rightness/wrongness of any given geopolitical topic, the world has always been a place where strong countries eventually have their way ... and weak ones get to submit, be conquered or both. That's just the way it is unfortunately, and the real trick is deterring, vs encouraging, dictators like Putin . Weakness at the national level, when all is said and done, is actually quite provocative and dangerous in the foreign policy arena. Historically, that's how wars are started vs avoided.

As I said in an earlier post, my emotional inclination is towards a strong minded and muscular US isolationism, but rationally I recognize sometimes we don't get to choose ... ie sometimes circumstances determine what we must do in our national interest. Right now with Ukraine, the ball is still up in the air in terms of what we do. But I do know that if we simply let Russia annex Crimea and then Eastern Ukraine without any cost or penalty etc ... it will not be good for longer term stability and peace.

[Bucco]

The more I have read in he last two days on this......our weakness is being played and that is our financial distress.....unrestrained spendng etc.

I am not a good financial guy...wondering if anyone has an opinion on that or hear anything. I have read, and will not quote because not all that comfy with the sources, but read in 4 different EUROPEAN pubs that this is all about us being so weak...NOT militarily but financially !!!

[Taltarzac725]

AND once upon a time as THE superpower with the strongest military on the planet when we decided to get/be involved there was never "much" of a question whether we could win or not.

Our strategy of recent years to be in it but don't make anybody mad and for sure don't do what ever it takes to win PLUS the erosion of our military might PLUS our adversaries count on us not hitting back.

So the decision to "do something" is very different TODAY!

Teddy Roosevelt had it right....speak softly BUT CARRY A BIG STICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem with these kind of historical comparisons is that the battleships Teddy Roosevelt referred to are quite obsolete in the era of nuclear weapons and computer controlled drone warfare and military hacking.

I do wonder where Putin is getting his information about various claims he has made about pleas for help and how the Russian media is being used by the remnants of the Soviet KGB to sell some agenda. I do hope the US Administration is very careful about ascertaining just what this agenda is.

If you are interesting in learning more about Ukraine or testing your own knowledge try taking some of the FunTrivia Quizzes: http://www.funtrivia.com/ql.cfm?cat=3872

Hi there,

There's a quiz at FunTrivia.com that you may be interested in:

'History of Ukraine' -- Category: History.

You can play it by going here:

http://www.funtrivia.com/quizdetails.cfm?quiz=255809&ref=Taltarzac

If you sign up (free) on FunTrivia using the link above you will automatically be set as one of my friends, and we can
compare scores easily.

[Bucco]

As I said in a previous post..our weakness is financial......


"Financial markets were on high alert last night over the Ukraine crisis amid speculation that the Kremlin had pulled its vast US treasury bill holdings out of New York."


Markets fear Russia has cut US treasury bill holding over Ukraine crisis | Business | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/14/russia-us-treasury-bill-bonds-ukraine-sanctions)

And let's see where this goes....

"SIMFEROPOL, Crimea -- Several Russian military helicopters landed on March 15 in southern Kherson Oblast near Kremlin-occupied Crimea, bringing dozens of commandoes and seizing a natural gas plant.

The moves heightened tension on the eve of a Crimean referendum, which Ukraine and the West consider illegal. Russian troops unexpectedly invaded the Crimean peninsula on Feb. 27 and in the following days Russian President Vladimir Putin said that he might order the use of military forces in Ukraine."


Russian troops invade Kherson Oblast, Ukrainians declare right to fight back (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-troops-invade-kherson-oblast-ukrainians-declare-right-to-fight-back-339509.html)

[JourneyOfLife]

As I said in a previous post..our weakness is financial......


"Financial markets were on high alert last night over the Ukraine crisis amid speculation that the Kremlin had pulled its vast US treasury bill holdings out of New York."


Markets fear Russia has cut US treasury bill holding over Ukraine crisis | Business | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/14/russia-us-treasury-bill-bonds-ukraine-sanctions)

And let's see where this goes....

"SIMFEROPOL, Crimea -- Several Russian military helicopters landed on March 15 in southern Kherson Oblast near Kremlin-occupied Crimea, bringing dozens of commandoes and seizing a natural gas plant.

The moves heightened tension on the eve of a Crimean referendum, which Ukraine and the West consider illegal. Russian troops unexpectedly invaded the Crimean peninsula on Feb. 27 and in the following days Russian President Vladimir Putin said that he might order the use of military forces in Ukraine."


Russian troops invade Kherson Oblast, Ukrainians declare right to fight back (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-troops-invade-kherson-oblast-ukrainians-declare-right-to-fight-back-339509.html)


Boy that's dumb.... probably one of the few hedges they had... when the Russian Ruble plummets into the toilet.

The real reason might be due to fear of sanction that might affect assets held by Western Countries. They have the piece of paper, we have an obligation to pay. But, a western court might rule... pay the Ukraine reparations.

[Bucco]

Boy that's dumb.... probably one of the few hedges they had... when the Russian Ruble plummets into the toilet.

The real reason might be due to fear of sanction that might affect assets held by Western Countries. They have the piece of paper, we have an obligation to pay. But, a western court might rule... pay the Ukraine reparations.

With drawl of securities certainly softens our threatened sanctions !!!

[Bucco]

Boring to most I am sure, but I was reminded tonight on here that we cannot be isolated....thus...read if you care at all !

"Some 95.5% of voters in Crimea have supported joining Russia, officials say, after half the votes have been counted in a disputed referendum."

BBC News - Crimea referendum: Voters 'back Russia union' (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26606097)

"As the West threatens to ratchet up sanctions if Russia doesn’t back down from annexing Crimea, Russia has deployed about 60,000 troops along the Ukrainian border, the government in Kiev said"

Crimeans Choose to Join Russia in Vote, Exit Poll Shows - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-15/crimea-referendum-looms-as-kerry-fails-to-sway-russia.html)

"A United States surveillance drone has been intercepted above the Ukranian region of Crimea, a Russian state arms and technology group said Friday."[/B

Russia says intercepted US drone over Crimea: arms group (http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-intercepted-us-drone-over-crimea-arms-180430584.html)

[B]"The United States strongly rejected Crimea's vote Sunday on breaking away from Ukraine, hinting at possible additional sanctions on Russia."

"The Kremlin said earlier that the call was initiated by the American side, as relations between Russia and the United States have plunged to their lowest point since the Cold War. "

US rejects Crimea vote, warns Russia of 'additional costs' (http://news.yahoo.com/crimea-vote-fully-legal-putin-tells-obama-205817027.html;_ylt=AwrBJSCgLiZTImoAUmPQtDMD)

"George Soros, one of the world’s leading investors, has warned that the European Union is in danger of falling apart if it fails to confront Vladimir Putin’s naked aggression in Ukraine."

George Soros Predicts Ukraine Could Ruin The EU - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/14/george-soros-predicts-ukraine-could-ruin-the-eu.html)

"A leading anchor on Russian state television on Sunday described Russia as the only country capable of turning the United States into "radioactive ash", in an incendiary comment at the height of tensions over the Crimea referendum."

State TV says Russia could turn US to 'radioactive ash' (http://news.yahoo.com/state-tv-says-russia-could-turn-us-radioactive-212003397.html)