What? Truth or fiction

[senior citizen]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/kindergartner-praying-at-lunch-says-teacher-told-her--‘you’re-not-allowed-to-pray’-214217118.html (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/kindergartner-praying-at-lunch-says-teacher-told-her--‘you’re-not-allowed-to-pray’-214217118.html)

What? Truth or fiction?

If this was her family custom and she was quietly saying grace before her meal, I don't see the harm in it.

Or, is the dad creating a mountain out of a mole hill (based on his own agenda as is written in article)??

I have no idea what they do or do not do in public schools nowadays, however, in the cave man days, when we went to elementary school, back in the 1950's , the teacher would open the classroom day by reading a psalm of the day out of the BIBLE and then everyone would say the Lords Prayer....to the end (the Catholic kids would end at "at deliver us from evil". The Protestant kids would continue on "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen".

We also saluted the flag every day, said the Pledge of Allegiance (and sang the star spangled banner during assembly),

This was public school in the good old days.

We also had weekly assembly where patriotic music was sung by all, as well as some "hymns"....again public school.
One nation under God.

[graciegirl]

For what it's worth, and the fact that I taught little ones of that age for several decades, and knowing parents and knowing how little ones like to please their parents, I am skeptical of this whole thing, and in my getting longer lifetime, I know NO one who would say to a kindergartner that they shouldn't pray. NO one. That would be so cruel and uncaring.


I believe in the separation of church and state, probably because I wanted our children to attend public school and not have conflicting views on religion. Everyone thinks their faith is the one that should be taught or not taught. If you want to send your child to a private school that teaches your religion and can afford to do so, that is your choice. Plenty opportunity exists to teach your child your faith or your views at home.


Central to most religions is kindness and acceptance and respect for the rules of the place you are in. As I say, I am skeptical and think the parents may be...well...

[Golfingnut]

Praying in silence probably would go unnoticed but, throw out a rag, kneal down facing east and start an up and down movement would most likely cause a scene.
Point: Keep your praying private.

[BarryRX]

I was going to comment, but Gracie said it better than I ever could. I will add that if one reads the article, the school says the incident never happened and that of course children are allowed to bow their heads and pray if they'd like.

[Golfingnut]

I was going to comment, but Gracie said it better than I ever could. I will add that if one reads the article, the school says the incident never happened and that of course children are allowed to bow their heads and pray if they'd like.

I am the Golfingnut and I approve silent prayer in public school.

[OBXNana]

Our daughter is a second grade teacher. She has two students that leave the room during the Pledge. All holiday parties have been stopped. If I were to guess after reading this article, a student saw the girl bow her head to pray, went home and told their parents, and the parents complained to the principal or school board. In the case of the school where our daughter teaches, a representative from the school would have called the parents of the student to discuss options for the student to pray. They would not have gone to the 6 year old and embarrassed her. This is simply speculation on my part and something I could see happen in our local school district. This scenario is not uncommon.

Extreme, yes, but the sign of the times. Johnny can't read or do math, but Mom and Dad complain to the school because Johnny was sitting beside someone at lunch that prayed to their God.

[Taltarzac725]

For what it's worth, and the fact that I taught little ones of that age for several decades, and knowing parents and knowing how little ones like to please their parents, I am skeptical of this whole thing, and in my getting longer lifetime, I know NO one who would say to a kindergartner that they shouldn't pray. NO one. That would be so cruel and uncaring.


I believe in the separation of church and state, probably because I wanted our children to attend public school and not have conflicting views on religion. Everyone thinks their faith is the one that should be taught or not taught. If you want to send your child to a private school that teaches your religion and can afford to do so, that is your choice. Plenty opportunity exists to teach your child your faith or your views at home.


Central to most religions is kindness and acceptance and respect for the rules of the place you are in. As I say, I am skeptical and think the parents may be...well...

Great post, Graciegirl. I have been reading a book about the Tudors and their use and abuse of religion-- because of course only the King or Queen and their advisors know the will of God-- and believe strongly in the wall between Church and State. http://www.historyextra.com/book-review/history-england-volume-ii-tudors But, there also has to be some kind of common sense balance about allowing people to interact with their God or Gods or whatever else they happen to worship.

This kind of looks like a publicity stunt by the child's parents to market a book they have an interest in. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/kindergartner-praying-at-lunch-says-teacher-told-her--‘you’re-not-allowed-to-pray’-214217118.html

[Golfingnut]

Interesting take on this topic in this link. Happy reading

Has religion interfered with the advancement of humankind more than it has contributed to it? | Debate.org (http://www.debate.org/opinions/has-religion-interfered-with-the-advancement-of-humankind-more-than-it-has-contributed-to-it)

[buggyone]

I would guess this was a story that the girl told after discussion with her father. It was most likely meant as a statement from the family and their community to tell others to withdraw their kids and homeschool them in their " Christian" beliefs.

[senior citizen]

Our daughter is a second grade teacher. She has two students that leave the room during the Pledge. All holiday parties have been stopped. If I were to guess after reading this article, a student saw the girl bow her head to pray, went home and told their parents, and the parents complained to the principal or school board. In the case of the school where our daughter teaches, a representative from the school would have called the parents of the student to discuss options for the student to pray. They would not have gone to the 6 year old and embarrassed her. This is simply speculation on my part and something I could see happen in our local school district. This scenario is not uncommon.

Extreme, yes, but the sign of the times. Johnny can't read or do math, but Mom and Dad complain to the school because Johnny was sitting beside someone at lunch that prayed to their God.



Back in 1978 /1980 we noticed a distinct "change of course" in our own children's elementary school..........up until about that time period, all the parents, grandparents and general public enjoyed the once yearly Christmas Musical where "winter type songs", perhaps one or two carols, etc. were sung by the various grades.....K to 6. They all loved getting dressed up in their new Polly Flinders prairie girl dresses and high leather cowgirl boots (the style at the moment in Vermont) and the boys got to wear a good shirt for a change......it was a very joyful event to attend. The kids also sang the dreidel song as well as others, along with their Jewish friends.


The musical director was talented and did a great job.


Then one Indian family moved into town and complained.
The Christmas musical was cancelled and no longer presented, to the sadness of all. Now, I have great Indian friends; they are wonderful people, but this one family protested and an entire community changed.


The next school year, we all noticed that although a Christmas show was no longer allowed, there was a parade from the school down to Main Street by all the children........why? To celebrate the Aztec God of the Sun? Strange but true.


Our town was settled by French and Irish settlers. Basically a Catholic town as well as Episcopalian, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist and one synagogue. NO AZTECS THAT I'VE RUN ACROSS.....AS OF YET.


People began getting paranoid about the new teachers in town....and the strange bans against Christmas. My daughter's sixth grade teacher asked to borrow my astrology books (I have nothing at all against astrology) but she organized the kids in rows according to their sun signs. What? Public School.


Then in high school we, and others, were shocked when our son's history teacher was teaching about the Catholic inquisition and torture, etc. We all saw the kids' papers........so if religion should not be in schools, why teach that? We were never taught that in public school and my husband was never taught that in Catholic school.


I could actually write a book about grades K through 12 in Vermont.
After our kids went away to college.........our daughter's anthropology professor told her that America was NOT the great melting pot. From my own immigrant grandparents' experiences, it certainly was. They all assimilated to the best of their ability into the American society; especially their children (my parents, etc.) America was a dream come true. Their chosen land. They truly did not get any special treatment back in 1890 or 1907 prior to the two world wars.


Now, we have to change our ways for the new folks. Or, that's how it appears. If you live long enough, you can see the changes as they evolved.


Also, as an "aside", we were raised in the city and walked all over town, as children, without being assaulted, molested or murdered.......times were different then when people did have some "rules".

[Cedwards38]

I agree with Gracie.

That article sounds like a publicity stunt to me. (My words here, not Gracie's.)

What's the old expression, "as long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in public schools." :-)

I was an elementary school principal for many years, and the good old days (and by that I mean the days when I was a student in school) were only "good" if you were a white, Christian, born in America, capitalist, heterosexual with no physical, mental, intellectual, or emotional handicaps, with a mom (female) and a dad (male) at home, and dad and maybe mom had a job, and you had a home of some sort to go to. The reality is that a lot of kids in the good old days and today do not fall neatly into those categories, and the public schools are created to accommodate them all, and make them all feel comfortable while they learn.

School is for educational and intellectual growth. Values are for the home. Let's not mix the two.

[billethkid]

"...the sign of the times. Johnny can't read or do math, but Mom and Dad complain to the school because Johnny was sitting beside someone at lunch that prayed to their God...."

This extract from a post above pretty much reflects how far too many of the current generation and others think these days.

We are swamped by the notion of not offending anyone about anything by or for anybody. We have lost or at a minimum set aside the concept of right and wrong in exchange for acknowledging isolated incidences and minority reports and penalizing the majority to appease the few.

The usual isolated incidences of yesteryear would have been acknowledged and the life and belief of others would not have been changed. Today isolated incidences become headline news and are promoted by a legal system that attempts to change the lives of the many for the sake of one.

Hence a story like the child not being allowed to pray is all too often more likely to be true than not.

I am a proponent of right or wrong which far too much of the current permissive thinking does not subscribe to or accept.

[graciegirl]

"...the sign of the times. Johnny can't read or do math, but Mom and Dad complain to the school because Johnny was sitting beside someone at lunch that prayed to their God...."

This extract from a post above pretty much reflects how far too many of the current generation and others think these days.

We are swamped by the notion of not offending anyone about anything by or for anybody. We have lost or at a minimum set aside the concept of right and wrong in exchange for acknowledging isolated incidences and minority reports and penalizing the majority to appease the few.

The usual isolated incidences of yesteryear would have been acknowledged and the life and belief of others would not have been changed. Today isolated incidences become headline news and are promoted by a legal system that attempts to change the lives of the many for the sake of one.

Hence a story like the child not being allowed to pray is all too often more likely to be true than not.

I am a proponent of right or wrong which far too much of the current permissive thinking does not subscribe to or accept.


I agree with you on this too. That the few and unusual incidences of this sort are given way too much press and then those of us with kind and fair hearts are always feeling bad. ALWAYS. aND We aren't allowed to point out certain things because we would hurt a whole bunch of folks.Even if a whole bunch of folks are always getting into trouble...again... But there sets the emperor, naked as a jaybird.


Common sense is dead as a duck. We can't say anything anymore for the fear of hurting someone.

[buggyone]

I re-read the news link to the posting. Some things are just too obvious to be a coincidence.

"A coincidence that is too striking to ignore was pointed out by the Orlando Sentinel. The paper wrote that Marcos Perez is the “…vice president of sales at Charisma House, a Lake Mary-based Christian book publisher. The company is currently promoting the book ‘God Less America: Real Stories from the Front Lines of the Attack on Traditional Values,’ by Fox News host Todd Starnes. Starnes reported on the lunch prayer controversy for Fox News Radio.”

The article also states the father (Perez) posted the "account" on YouTube.

Coincidence this just happened at the time the father's company is promoting a book on the same subject? Hmmmm?

[graciegirl]

I re-read the news link to the posting. Some things are just too obvious to be a coincidence.

"A coincidence that is too striking to ignore was pointed out by the Orlando Sentinel. The paper wrote that Marcos Perez is the “…vice president of sales at Charisma House, a Lake Mary-based Christian book publisher. The company is currently promoting the book ‘God Less America: Real Stories from the Front Lines of the Attack on Traditional Values,’ by Fox News host Todd Starnes. Starnes reported on the lunch prayer controversy for Fox News Radio.”

The article also states the father (Perez) posted the "account" on YouTube.

Coincidence this just happened at the time the father's company is promoting a book on the same subject? Hmmmm?


No Hmmmm. It is a Ah HAH! You are right once again Buggy. That child just wanted to please her folks. Little ones aren't dumb.

[Golfingnut]

I respectfully disagree, common sense is better that it was in my day. Notice that young people have adapted to not saying things that offend other people. It comes natural to them where our older generation is so ingrained to be rude to whatever we see as different than our way. Things said by our generation with no intent of disrespect, is finally recognized by many new generation youth as horribly disrespectful. The young folks have it right. We need to take their advice on what is disrespectful to others.

[billethkid]

I respectfully disagree, common sense is better that it was in my day. Notice that young people have adapted to not saying things that offend other people. It comes natural to them where our older generation is so ingrained to be rude to whatever we see as different than our way. Things said by our generation with no intent of disrespect, is finally recognized by many new generation youth as horribly disrespectful. The young folks have it right. We need to take their advice on what is disrespectful to others.

Does not mean they are right...and no thanx!

[Golfingnut]

Does not mean they are right...and no thanx!

True, but I feel they are better at it than our generation. They are better at issues of religion, race and the environment than we were for reasons of education and improved communication.

[buggyone]

True, but I feel they are better at it than our generation. They are better at issues of religion, race and the environment than we were for reasons of education and improved communication.

I would agree with you, Golingnuts. I am sure when you were a boy back in Iowa that there were mainly Protestants, some Catholics, and all white, and the Iowa motto of "if a little fertilizer works good - a whole lot more works better".

[Golfingnut]

I would agree with you, Golingnuts. I am sure when you were a boy back in Iowa that there were mainly Protestants, some Catholics, and all white, and the Iowa motto of "if a little fertilizer works good - a whole lot more works better".

You nailed that one. Wow. Were you my neighbor?

[buggyone]

You nailed that one. Wow. Were you my neighbor?

No, just some things I learned from my friends, Olie and Lena. :wave: