Eat better

[jimbo2012]

Vegan 101, eat healthy, live with less (or no) meds

Professor Melanie Joy, recipient of the prestigious Internationale Ahimsa award, former recipients were Dahli Lama & Nelson Mandela

She appears with Dr. Barnard, & Dr. Campbell in this informative video enjoy & be informed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tWLs_lN2pFE&noredirect=1

She wrote the following see post below to receive that award.

https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ysIUOQPIxYAc3-YMDLbn0hBwyZCFnDFc22_9kW1mGMDXh96dfV7d6GZj9nv9r-3dJbRHBmikNmhNmNDpcwhrbPbwEhIAnXNjmG28tLepVDpXH0uF rTPeajB-gg=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.forksoverknives.com/wp-content/uploads/Melanie_570x299.jpg




Melanie Joy, Ph.D., Ed.M.
Melanie Joy, Ph.D., is author of the acclaimed Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. Dr. Joy is a Harvard-educated psychologist, a professor of psychology and sociology at the University of Massachusetts, Boston, and a celebrated speaker. Dr. Joy has written numerous articles on psychology, animal protection, and social justice, and she has been interviewed extensively by international media venues. She is also the founder and president of the Carnism Awareness and Action Network.
View all articles by Melanie Joy, Ph.D., Ed.M. →

[jimbo2012]

October 9, 2013 at the House of Commons in London, where she was presented with the Institute of Jainology’s prestigious Ahimsa Award for her international work on nonviolence. Dr. Joy is the eighth recipient of the award. Former recipients include the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela.

I want to first thank the Institute of Jainology for honoring me, and the cause for which I work, with this award. And I would also like to thank them for their efforts to help create a world in which one day ahimsa will no longer be worthy of such recognition, because nonviolence will simply be the norm.

This award is a step in that direction. For it is often those with the greatest vulnerability to violence who are the most exploited and the least protected, and whose victimization remains invisible. Recognizing my efforts to illuminate the violence inherent in animal agriculture, and the violence in the consciousness that enables this practice, is a powerful statement legitimizing farmed animals as vulnerable others, as victims who are therefore deserving of protection from harm.

I am deeply honored and profoundly grateful to be receiving the Ahimsa Award, but this award does not belong to me alone. The platform on which I stand has been constructed by the tireless animal advocates and activists, the unsung heroes, whose courage and commitment to speak the truth in the face of overwhelming social denial – to demand compassion and justice for all beings – is perhaps the greatest example of ahimsa I know. And in particular I stand here because of the efforts of my team at Carnism Awareness and Action Network, all volunteers whose dedication frankly humbles me. So I accept this award on behalf of those whose work has made mine possible. And I accept this award on behalf of the pigs and chickens and cows and fish and sheep and rabbits and ducks and everyone else who has been or will be an invisible victim of agricultural violence.

Thank you.

And now I’d like to share with you how I came to be here today, the story of how my search for truth and my discovery of love helped teach me the meaning of ahimsa.

[jimbo2012]

From the moment I was weaned, I was taught to both seek and deny the truth. I was taught to apply the Golden Rule – to consider how I would feel were I on the receiving end of my actions – but also to systematically violate others. I was taught to keep an open mind and a caring heart, but also to block my awareness and shut down my empathy. I was taught to practice compassion, but to participate in cruelty. I was taught to love, and I was taught to kill.

And so I learned to be a psychological acrobat, walking the tightrope between denial and truth, juggling facts and fictions in an elaborate – and deadly – act I didn’t even know I was performing. And it was my journey across that precarious mental highwire that led me to where I stand today.

My first memory of what I would later realize was my acrobatic training was from when I was just two years old, and we adopted a puppy who my parents named Fritz. Fritz became my first friend, my best friend. And Fritz and I were inseparable; he would bound by my side across the open expanse of the local golf course, under an impossibly vast, cloud-swept sky; he lay contently at my feet as I chronicled my adventures in my private journal, nestled in our secret fort in the woods; he good-naturedly pulled me across the little frozen pond between the trees that I had declared my personal skating rink; he aided and abetted me when I smuggled my unwanted dinner from my mouth to my napkin and then to him, at his station under the table, my partner in crime.

And Fritz and I understood each other. When he stepped on a shard of glass and sliced his paw, I cringed in pain. When he caught wind of his Christmas bone and wagged his tail so hard it pulled his backside along with it, my heart swelled with joy. When I lay feverish and aching he held vigil by my bedside. And when he died, at the age of 13 of cancer, I wept with grief for the loss of my brother.

I am the person I am today in part because of my relationship – my connection – to the dog with whom I grew up. Indeed, the relationships we form with others, human and nonhuman, shape our hearts and minds in profound and powerful ways, for better or worse. They wound us and they heal us. They teach us how to be givers, takers, leaders, users, performers, abusers, nurturers. My connection with Fritz helped teach me how to love.

My connection with Fritz taught me to identify with others. When we identify with another, we see something of ourselves in them, and something of them in ourselves, even if the only thing we identify with is the desire not to suffer. My connection with Fritz taught me to empathize with others. When we empathize with another, we look at the world thorough the their eyes, so when we make choices that impact them we ask ourselves, what would he or she ask us to do? Indeed, empathy is central to our psychological wellbeing, and to the wellbeing of our planet. It is the antidote to all forms of violence – from judgment to hatred, from domestic abuse to genocide – as it is the seed from which compassion blooms.

My connection with my dog taught me to be a compassionate witness, to look deeply into the truth of another’s experience, and into the truth of my own experience – even when the truth broke my heart. After Fritz was diagnosed with cancer and his dash to greet me after school was replaced by a hobble, his once overactive tail swaying limply and his once bright eyes clouded in pain, I still wanted nothing more than to keep him alive, even if just for another week. But I loved him. And my relationship with him had helped teach me that to love someone is to truly see them, and that loving another means making choices that are in their best interest. Love and denial cannot coexist.

And so my relationship with Fritz taught me to honor the truth.

But my relationship with Fritz also taught me to deny the truth. It taught me how to play my role in the circus of the absurd, teetering atop that perilous tightrope.

Somehow, throughout all those magical childhood years – years of wonder and adventure and best friendship, of sprinting across panoramic meadows, plunging in towering snow banks, burrowing in fragile, sweet-smelling leaf piles – somehow despite the powerful connection I shared with my dog, there was a deep disconnection within me. Beside my awareness and empathy there resided a numbness of mind and heart. Truth and denial lay side by side, uneasy bedfellows.

Indeed, for the first half of my life, I never thought about how bizarre it was that I could pet my dog with one hand, while I ate a pork chop with the other, a pork chop that had once been an animal who was at least as intelligent and sensitive and conscious as my dog and who – like all of us – had a life that mattered to her. The internal disconnection that caused me to unwittingly support extensive – and completely unnecessary – animal suffering was as powerful as the connection that caused me to love my dog enough to break my own heart to end his suffering. But I simply juggled these contradictions like the acrobat that I was, sleepwalking along the fine line of truth and denial.

[jimbo2012]

It wasn’t until a decade after the death of my beloved dog that I woke up. I first awoke to find myself hospitalized, after having eaten what turned out to be my very last piece of meat – a hamburger that had been contaminated with the foodborne bacteria, campylobacter. And then I awoke to the truth. I awoke to the truth about what is perhaps the most entrenched and brutal industry in human history, an industry that permeates virtually every aspect of human and nonhuman existence and whose very survival depends on denial.

The truth is that nonhuman animals are intelligent, sentient beings. Pigs, for instance, are as intelligent as three-year-old humans; and scientists have demonstrated that fish and certain crustaceans have pain receptors, such that some food manufacturers no longer sell live lobsters and crabs on the grounds that boiling them alive is inhumane.

The truth is that approximately 95% of the meat, eggs, and dairy that make it to our plates comes from animals who lived and died in abject misery. (And the other 5%, from so-called organic or humane farms is, I assure you, far from cruelty-free.) For instance, baby animals are routinely castrated and have their horns and beaks cut off without any painkiller whatsoever. They are born and raised in crowded, filthy, dark environments where their existence is one of torment and terror. The females may be hooked up to so-called rape racks, where they are forcibly impregnated, over and over, only to have their offspring taken from them just hours after birth. (There are few sounds as haunting as the wailing of a cow on a dairy farm, as her baby is carried off.). And when it comes time for slaughter, these beings are shackled by their ankles, dragged along a conveyor belt, sliced open, and plunged into boiling water, often while fully conscious.

The truth is that, according to the United Nations, animal agriculture is one of the most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems facing the world today. Consider, for instance, the fact that greenhouse gas emissions caused by so-called livestock exceed that caused by all cars, trucks, ships, buses, and airplanes combined.

The truth is that there is overwhelming evidence linking the consumption of animal products with some of the most prevalent and debilitating diseases in the western world, including cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and obesity.

The truth is that those on the front lines of killing – the meatpackers and slaughterhouse workers – are economically and physically exploited and are often traumatized by an industry whose business is violence. Human Rights Watch states that the working conditions of these individuals are so appalling they violate basic human rights; and not surprisingly, such violence begets violence. For instance, one worker stated (and I apologize in advance for the brief profanity):

“One time I took my knife…and I sliced off the end of a hog’s nose, just like a piece of bologna. The hog went crazy for a few seconds. Then it just sat there looking kind of stupid. So I took a handful of salt brine and ground it into its nose. Now that hog really went nuts, brushing its nose all over the place. I still had a bunch of salt left…and I stuck the salt right up the hog’s ass. The poor hog didn’t know whether to **** or go blind.”1

The truth is that, globally, 124,000 farmed animals are slaughtered…not every day, or even every hour….but every, single, minute. And so I would like to take a moment of silence, to honor the victims on whose behalf I stand here today, and to commemorate the 124,000 of them who will be killed during the next sixty seconds.

(Sixty seconds of silence)

Thank you.

And the truth was that an entire society of rational, caring people – just like myself – had somehow checked their hearts and minds at the door to enable a global atrocity that has caused more bloodshed than all wars, genocides, famines, and natural disasters combined, in what could only be called a collective madness.

We tearfully bury the bodies of deceased dogs, yet we contentedly consume the bodies of dead pigs. We stop in our tracks to return a fallen bird to her nest, while our chicken nuggets await us back home. We laugh beside our children as they reach toward the calf in the petting zoo, though we feed them the very milk that was taken from this baby, milk that was taken along with his mother. We would call it abuse if a happy, healthy golden retriever were slaughtered just because people liked the way her thighs taste, and yet, when the very same thing is done to individuals of other species we call it humane. We don snorkels and masks and fins to stare in awe at the sundry creatures of the sea, balm to our busy minds, yet we may also soothe ourselves by tricking these same beings into impaling themselves to death on the ends of our sharpened hooks. And the methods of mass destruction….How many times had I heedlessly driven past the squat, elongated factories – windowless sheds in remote locations in which hundreds of thousands of individuals were caged and confined, castrated and cauterized and cut open – factories that bore a haunting resemblance to other architectures of the darker chapters of our history? And how many times had I cheerfully hummed to my radio as truckloads of terrified animals passed me on their way to slaughter, the whites of their eyes flashing from behind dark little slats?

Something was horribly wrong.

How on earth had such a glaring truth been so fully eclipsed by denial?

[jimbo2012]

It was after awakening but before understanding that I was compelled to seek what I would discover was an even deeper truth. And so, to make sense out of the atrocities and absurdities and acrobatics I could no longer un-see, I immersed myself in the study of violence and nonviolence, ultimately writing my doctoral dissertation on the psychology of eating animals.

And what I discovered made everything suddenly clear. There was in fact a rational explanation for the pandemic insanity that had laid claim to an otherwise sound populace.

What I discovered was that there is an invisible belief system that conditions us to eat certain animals. This belief system is woven through the very fabric of society to shape all social institutions and it is therefore internalized, shaping the very way we think and feel – or, more accurately, don’t think and feel – about eating animals. It is a system of oppression that requires us to act against our core values, our own interests, and the interests of others. The system must therefore use a set of social and psychological defense mechanisms so that rational, humane people participate in irrational, inhumane practices without fully realizing what they are doing. And the core of the system is denial.

Carnism, the name I gave to this system of denial, is constructed around an elaborate narrative that presents fiction as fact and distorts our perceptions so that we fail to see the contradictions that are right in front of us. Carnism is the ringmaster that keeps us ungrounded.

Carnism teaches us to deny the fact that eating animals is based on a mythology, on what I call the Three Ns of Justification – eating animals is normal, natural, and necessary – a mythology that has been used to justify violent practices throughout human history, from slavery to male dominance.

Carnism teaches us to deny the fact that in much of the world today, many of us eat animals not because we need to, but because we choose to. And ironically, carnism robs of us of our ability to make such crucial choices freely – because without awareness, there is no free choice.

Carnism teaches us to deny the fact that animals are individuals, with their own personalities and preferences, and to instead to see them as abstract members of a group: a pig is a pig and all pigs are the same. And as with other victims of violent ideologies, we give them numbers rather than names.

And carnism teaches us to deny the fact that eating animals is not merely a matter of personal ethics, but rather it is the inevitable end result of a deeply entrenched oppressive system. So we fail to see that eating animals is in fact a social justice issue.

*******

So there it was. Nearly two decades after the death of my cherished canine companion, I had finally come to understand the very strange – and very dire – nature of the circus act I had been performing. And I knew that if I didn’t share what I had learned I would be colluding in carnistic denial rather than speaking my truth.

So I wrote a book based on my research – entitled “Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism” – which sold tens of thousands of copies and whose content has been translated and disseminated around the world, and which eventually formed the basis of my organization, Carnism Awareness and Action Network, now a hub of global carnism awareness activity. I have witnessed the spread of carnism awareness across nearly every continent, as more and more individuals are adopting the cause as their own and as I continue on what is now the third year of my international speaking tour.

And along this most recent phase of my journey, as I travel the world meeting thousands of people from an array of backgrounds, whose lifestyles fall all along the carnistic continuum, I have learned what is perhaps the deepest of truths. Yet unlike the tragic truth about animal agriculture, or the unnerving truth about carnism, this truth is inspiring, for it is the very reason the other truths must remain shrouded within the protective cloak of denial.

The truth is that we care. We care about animals, we care about justice, and we care about the truth. And carnism depends on our not caring, and the system is built on deception. Carnism is a vulnerable system that needs a strong fortress to protect itself from its very own proponents – us. Why else would we need to go through all the psychological acrobatics if not because we care?

The truth is that there is a way off the tightrope. Awareness sweeps out the fictions that clutter our inner worlds, creating space for truth to emerge. We can thus reclaim our authentic thoughts and feelings, and with them, our freedom of choice. With awareness we can choose to be conscientious objectors to the violent system that is carnism, and we can choose to become active witnesses in the transformation of this system.

The truth is that more and more people are waking up. The vegan movement, which is the counterpoint to carnism, is in fact thriving; it is burgeoning in cultures around the world. And the movement is growing precisely because its principles are our principles, its mission is what we all wish for. Veganism is centered on justice, and compassion, and above all it demands an end to the carnistic game of Let’s Pretend.

Veganism, of course, is not the solution to global violence and injustice, but no true solution will be possible without it. For when it comes to systems of oppression, although they can never be equated, as the experiences of each set of victims will always be somewhat unique, they can and must be compared. Because all oppressive systems are structurally similar – the consciousness that enables such oppressions is the same. It is the mentality of domination and subjugation, the mentality that causes us to turn beings into things, lives into units of production. It is the might-makes-right mentality that makes us feel entitled to wield complete control over the lives and deaths of those with less power, just because we can. And to feel justified in our actions because they’re only: savages, women, animals. It is the mentality of meat, the carnistic consciousness.

And so the truth is that, as a powerful man – Hitler – once sad, “Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.”2

But the truth is also that, as a more powerful man – Gandhi – once said, “all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall – think of it, always.3

So it was the love of a dog that taught me the true meaning of ahimsa. My relationship with Fritz taught me that love is not merely a feeling, but a practice, a practice that – like all practices – reflects our state of consciousness. It taught me that love should not be limited by arbitrary boundaries such as species; indeed, whenever we place limits on our compassion, we diminish ourselves and damage our world. And so it was the love of a dog that led me to my life’s work, to transform the violent system that is carnism. For transforming carnism is not simply about changing behavior, but about shifting consciousness. It is about shifting from ignorance to awareness, from apathy to empathy, from callousness to compassion, from denial to truth – and from violence, to ahimsa.

Thank you.

1 Gail Eisnitz, Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the US Meat Industry (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1997), 102-104.
2 I recognize that there is some debate around the attribution of this statement, and that the issue is as of yet unresolved.
3 Ibid.

[shcisamax]

Thank you Jimbo for posting this. As a advocate for stopping horse slaughter, several years ago, I became aware of the horrid reality of animal agriculture. I wonder how many will read the above in its entirety. But they should. It perfectly demonstrates so vividly how we grow up in a dichotomy of conflicting ideas i.e. loving our dog or cat or other pet and yet blocking out the hamburger or hotdog, or pork chop going in our mouth. Most will avoid reading it because they aren't ready to pony up the obvious response but even if they make small changes, it is progress. Every big changes is begun with a small change/

[rubicon]

Green has become a religion and veganism has become a religion and there is nothing more absolute than a born again greenie or vegan.

I cannot speak for others but I eat meat products because I have always liked them. I eat vegetables because I have always like them. I eat grains and nuts and beans because I like them. It is not complicated.
I do not experience any sort of cognitive dissonance because of what I eat. I like to use a fork, knife and spoon. An Italian meat sauce simmer over the stove is heaven to my olfactory and a signal that I need to cut a slice of Italian bread for a sampling.

I am told that today's experts determined that people over 65 can have a high protein diet including meat protein. I have always had a high protein diet. today's expert also indicate that people can have a higher intake of salt than previously thought. coffee is once again good for you wine also

I guess I am just a lost soul

[jimbo2012]

Not lost, perhaps didn't read the above completely or just don't get it.

Meat is not the only source of protein, common miss conception.

Some of those things you like do have negative affects on ones health

I take exception to your born again comment, really out of place

[Neal2tire]

Nelson Mandela? Food?
After a life of eating green and right and working as a chef
in the world of veggies and etc etc etc
had a heart attack at age 56
Now I eat meat and leafy greens and all vegetables. Lots of salmon and fish
and meat meat meat. BP and all blood work SHOCKED my Dr.
Shocked me too. Lost about 40lbs all by eating like people have for million of years.
I come from a family with vege heads and very educated food 'experts' all ill and anemic. I've never looked this good or felt better.
There is no connection between eating fat and heart or cancer illnesses.
Oh yes.. and I've increased my alcohol consumption from one drink a day to three.

I would avoid toxic sick relationships and family who like to screw with your head.
THAT is a road to health.
Just my two cents.
Neal G

[shcisamax]

Nelson Mandela? Food?

Neal G

What's the problem? Pres. Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize for what exactly? bypassing people like Irene Sendler who saved 2500 children during the holocaust putting her own life at risk and being beaten with all her limbs broken.

I think you make a good point however that not all animal product is bad for our bodies. For me, the issue is how we obtain it.

As I see it, is the manner in which we have closed our eyes to the cruelty that goes into how we receive "our" pleasure. I think if people want to eat meat, let them go out and watch how it really happens. All of it. Seeing it packaged nicely in the store isn't what factory farming is about. It is a bottom line event...just as Hitler looked at the costs and efficiency of gassing the Jews. All bottom line. No room for humane anything. And in this case, yes, I am comparing humans to animals because animals ARE sentient creatures which is why this is torture. If you can support torture of any creature, then you are not entitled to call yourself a humane creature.

Please no comments about God and we have dominion. It is simply irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. This is food for thought.

[Halle]

What's the problem? Pres. Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize for what exactly? bypassing people like Irene Sendler who saved 2500 children during the holocaust putting her own life at risk and being beaten with all her limbs broken.

I think you make a good point however that not all animal product is bad for our bodies. For me, the issue is how we obtain it.

As I see it, is the manner in which we have closed our eyes to the cruelty that goes into how we receive "our" pleasure. I think if people want to eat meat, let them go out and watch how it really happens. All of it. Seeing it packaged nicely in the store isn't what factory farming is about. It is a bottom line event...just as Hitler looked at the costs and efficiency of gassing the Jews. All bottom line. No room for humane anything. And in this case, yes, I am comparing humans to animals because animals ARE sentient creatures which is why this is torture. If you can support torture of any creature, then you are not entitled to call yourself a humane creature.

Please no comments about God and we have dominion. It is simply irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. This is food for thought.
:agree:

It is the treatment of animals that drives me not to eat animals. There will always be individuals who state how they are healthier eating animals and those that state how much healthier they are not eating animals. It is a personal decision to eat or not eat animals. I believe there is no denying how cruel the treatment of the animals is and the harm done to the environment to provide them as a food source.

[SantaClaus]

I used to work for a supplier to the meat processing industry and have seen behind the curtain. I am not denying that the atrocities Jimbo references have actually happened, BUT THEY COULD NOT have occurred at any of the highly efficient, productive and humane facilities I've seen. The kill floor itself is carefully designed to keep the cows calm, and they are dropped with a pneumatic plunger to the skull and the animal dies instantly; without so much as a jerk or sound. The most "gruesome" part is that, though the brain is dead, the heart continues to pump and is used to help "bleed" the cow. I do agree that everyone who eats these products should be aware of what happens before the styrofoam tray. I think you need to have appreciation, and it's hard to appreciate from ignorance. It's interesting that many of those who want us to be chilled by the screams of lambs will fight tooth and nail to remove requirements for a pregnant woman to see a sonogram of her baby before having an abortion.

[SantaClaus]

Please no comments about God and we have dominion. It is simply irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. This is food for thought.


Curious, why do you assume to be the arbiter relevance? Why is someone else's foundational belief irrelevant? At its heart this is a philosophical discussion, an ethical discussion. What is your basis for ethic? Am I to be denied a voice because my basis is not your basis?

[rayschic]

Thanks for posting, jimbo. I found this article to be very thought provoking.

[rubicon]

Not lost, perhaps didn't read the above completely or just don't get it.

Meat is not the only source of protein, common miss conception.

Some of those things you like do have negative affects on ones health

I take exception to your born again comment, really out of place

jimbo: I truly feel badly that you have taken umbrage concerning my born again comment but honestly you submitted 5 very long and consecutive posts regarding this topic. and you have repeatedly campaigned on this forum as to the benefits of being vegan. do you honestly believe one would not draw a conclusion that veganism is a quasi-religion to you?

My intent was not to besmirch you but was an observation.

And, I have a drink of V-8 with you anytime.

Personal Best Regards:

[shcisamax]

Curious, why do you assume to be the arbiter relevance? Why is someone else's foundational belief irrelevant? At its heart this is a philosophical discussion, an ethical discussion. What is your basis for ethic? Am I to be denied a voice because my basis is not your basis?

Because using the bible to support torture is simply absurd and people do no service to a discussion when they quote the bible for self serving motives.

As for being on the floor of a cattle slaughter house, that is such a small piece of what is being discussed. And even then, it isn't quite as clean and tidy as you assert. Thankfully, Grandin Temple helped tremendously to make it a more humane final moment. Would you like to talk about horse slaughter? pigs, lamb, chickens, and yadi yadi. Do you want to talk about the months and years of what leads up to the final moments? If I knew how to post photos, not that most people could stomach to see them and would look away so they could hold on to their illusion of humane factory farming, I would. But the Professor above describes well the ugly truth and that should be enough to have people start looking into the reality if they are interested.

[rubicon]

All this talk about the slaughter of animals would make the centuries of people who hunted for their very existence cringe.

In this civilized society we have found a more humane way for harvesting our bounty for meat protein and other such sources. Its efficient, its economical and it is most importantly a reliable manner to ensure people have food on the table.

[thekeithfan]

You beef lovers (that would include me): Have you noticed beef prices through the roof and the quality really lacking? Where did all the good beef go?

[rubicon]

You beef lovers (that would include me): Have you noticed beef prices through the roof and the quality really lacking? Where did all the good beef go?

thekeithfan: where did all the good beef go?? to the ethanol producers. Beside drought the lack of corn for feed added to reduction in herds. Pig inventory is down due to a virus. Limes are scarce vegetable prices increasing How much of all of this is manipulation???????

[elizabeth52]

I am not a Vegan. But I respect your viewpoint and found the information that you shared very interesting. Thank you, Jimbo, for a thought provoking post.

[shcisamax]

I am not a Vegan. But I respect your viewpoint and found the information that you shared very interesting. Thank you, Jimbo, for a thought provoking post.


I am not a vegan either. But the more I learn, the more honest I am about the choices I am making, the more I lean away from incredible untruth of humane factory farming and have begun to make changes in what I eat. For sure, when I eat now, I am now thinking about how it got to me.

[jimbo2012]

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

Now he lives in TV, never knew Santa slaughtered animals tho

Question, does Santa eat his reindeer?

Poor Rudolf............don't tell your gran kids

It is really funny I started this off with the keyword "vegan" and a slaughter house expert chimes in, you may get a warmer response on a barbecue thread


here's a great video where your beef really coming from (warning U may not order a burger again)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SYDxTDJl0Y


---

H]ow do [slaughterhouses] contribute to the spreading of pathogens or the increased food safety risks?

... At a slaughterhouse, you have big animals entering at one end, and small cuts of meat leaving at the other end. In between are hundreds of workers, mainly using handheld knives, processing the meat. So during that whole production system, there are many opportunities for the meat to be contaminated. What we're really talking about is fecal contamination of the meat from the stomach contents or the hide of the animal.

... The slaughterhouses that the United States have are pretty unique in terms of the speed of production. We have slaughterhouses that will process 300, 400 cattle an hour, which is as much as twice as many as anywhere else in the world. And it's that speed of production that can lead to food-safety problems. When workers are working very quickly, they may make mistakes. It's during the evisceration of the animal, or the removal of the hide, that manure can get on the meat. And when manure gets on some meat, and then that meat is ground up with lots of other meat, the whole lot of it can be contaminated. ...

[jimbo2012]

do you honestly believe one would not draw a conclusion that veganism is a quasi-religion to you?

It would depend on ones level of intellect perhaps, since you don't know me you should not draw such conclusions.

PS: it's not!

[jimbo2012]

Someone asked me earlier in a PM the following ?

Protein Content of Green Vegetables compared to Meat?

How many think it's meat?

See Dr. Fuhrman's answer here (https://www.drfuhrman.com/faq/question.aspx?sid=16&qindex=9)

[DianeM]

Live and let live. We all have a view and an opinion. Life is a journey where we learn new things and change our minds on what was the accepted norm.

[jimbo2012]

Does that include letting the animals live?

[rubicon]

It would depend on ones level of intellect perhaps, since you don't know me you should not draw such conclusions.

PS: it's not!

jimbo: The aforementioned comments are puzzling? Are you telling me that you mean what you say or you don't mean what you say? The choice of a person's words reflect their thinking which reveals who they are. By intent, tone conviction, etc it appears that you are evangelicalizing because you believe your philosophy concerning diet is superior to others.

In turn I am responding by explaining that you have your belief while I have mine and will continue to sacrifice animals on the altar of the Lord. For me its not really about one's debating a best diet its the constant bombardment
from you about the evils of eating animals.

And as to your intellectual level comment let's not confuse intellect with philosophy because people having different philosophies will never agree and its not a reflection of intellect.

So let's agree to disagree .

Personal Best Regards

[jimbo2012]

So let's agree to disagree

yes let's leave it that betwix us

[lightworker888]

i am not a vegan but do limit and carefully select the animal protein I do eat. I do my best to buy grass fed beef and non commercially raised meat from local farmers who farm humanely and I am very concerned about the GMO corn feed that is cmmercially used. And I am also concerned about the excessive use of soy in plant based "health" products.

What did occur to me in this discussion was, if we ever all went vegan, what would become of all the animals. If they could be raised and slaughtered in a "healthy" way we pprobably would all be better off. Who is to say that it isn't so much the animals as food, but more about the quality of the food from the animals that is creating the health challenges. That goes for the commercially grown produce as well, that gets sprayed and gmo'd.

It really is impossible to compare what is available commercially for us in this day as opposed to the produce and grassfed cattle grazing on plants and grains grown in vitamin rich soil in yesteryears.

Just my 2cents.

LW888

[jpharmat]

Excellent post Jimbo! I am Vegan too. I am neither pale or anemic and very healthy!
As most Vegans know, there is no such thing as humane slaughter. From start to finish factory farming is horrific to the animals involved. Do you know what happens to the male calf immediately taken from his mother? Do you know that cows are kept pregnant so that humans can drink milk? Do you know that male chicks are often ground up alive right after they hatch because male chicks are a waste product of the farming industry? Who in their right mind would put a piece of flesh in their mouth that has been pumped full of many hormones and chemicals...
Watch Forks over Knives, From Farm to Tale or Vegucated if you want to know the truth. Google slaughterhouse videos... if you dare.

[rubicon]

Excellent post Jimbo! I am Vegan too. I am neither pale or anemic and very healthy!
As most Vegans know, there is no such thing as humane slaughter. From start to finish factory farming is horrific to the animals involved. Do you know what happens to the male calf immediately taken from his mother? Do you know that cows are kept pregnant so that humans can drink milk? Do you know that male chicks are often ground up alive right after they hatch because male chicks are a waste product of the farming industry? Who in their right mind would put a piece of flesh in their mouth that has been pumped full of many hormones and chemicals...
Watch Forks over Knives, From Farm to Tale or Vegucated if you want to know the truth. Google slaughterhouse videos... if you dare.

Hi jpharmat: do you know what happens to a male calf...Yes it becomes veal and veal becomes scaloppini, parmesan, stuffed veal. As kids we ate veal dishes three times a week until the rest of America realized how good it is and now you have to float a loan to buy a pound.


There have been many recalls on vegetables because of e-coli, etc scares

Experts disagree some say buy only grass fed beef and organic grown vegetables wile other experts state the high price difference isn't worth it.

Nature has provided a bounty and I believe in sampling as much of a variety as I can.

I too love vegetables beets included.


Bon Appetit'

[jimbo2012]

"I believe in sampling as much of a variety as I can"

Rubi, what is your BMI

[DianeM]

Does that include letting the animals live?

Yeah it's only fair

[Vernster]

It wasn’t until a decade after the death of my beloved dog that I woke up. I first awoke to find myself hospitalized, after having eaten what turned out to be my very last piece of meat – a hamburger that had been contaminated with the foodborne bacteria, campylobacter. And then I awoke to the truth. I awoke to the truth about what is perhaps the most entrenched and brutal industry in human history, an industry that permeates virtually every aspect of human and nonhuman existence and whose very survival depends on denial.

The truth is that nonhuman animals are intelligent, sentient beings. Pigs, for instance, are as intelligent as three-year-old humans; and scientists have demonstrated that fish and certain crustaceans have pain receptors, such that some food manufacturers no longer sell live lobsters and crabs on the grounds that boiling them alive is inhumane.

The truth is that approximately 95% of the meat, eggs, and dairy that make it to our plates comes from animals who lived and died in abject misery. (And the other 5%, from so-called organic or humane farms is, I assure you, far from cruelty-free.) For instance, baby animals are routinely castrated and have their horns and beaks cut off without any painkiller whatsoever. They are born and raised in crowded, filthy, dark environments where their existence is one of torment and terror. The females may be hooked up to so-called rape racks, where they are forcibly impregnated, over and over, only to have their offspring taken from them just hours after birth. (There are few sounds as haunting as the wailing of a cow on a dairy farm, as her baby is carried off.). And when it comes time for slaughter, these beings are shackled by their ankles, dragged along a conveyor belt, sliced open, and plunged into boiling water, often while fully conscious.

The truth is that, according to the United Nations, animal agriculture is one of the most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems facing the world today. Consider, for instance, the fact that greenhouse gas emissions caused by so-called livestock exceed that caused by all cars, trucks, ships, buses, and airplanes combined.

The truth is that there is overwhelming evidence linking the consumption of animal products with some of the most prevalent and debilitating diseases in the western world, including cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and obesity.

The truth is that those on the front lines of killing – the meatpackers and slaughterhouse workers – are economically and physically exploited and are often traumatized by an industry whose business is violence. Human Rights Watch states that the working conditions of these individuals are so appalling they violate basic human rights; and not surprisingly, such violence begets violence. For instance, one worker stated (and I apologize in advance for the brief profanity):

“One time I took my knife…and I sliced off the end of a hog’s nose, just like a piece of bologna. The hog went crazy for a few seconds. Then it just sat there looking kind of stupid. So I took a handful of salt brine and ground it into its nose. Now that hog really went nuts, brushing its nose all over the place. I still had a bunch of salt left…and I stuck the salt right up the hog’s ass. The poor hog didn’t know whether to **** or go blind.”1

The truth is that, globally, 124,000 farmed animals are slaughtered…not every day, or even every hour….but every, single, minute. And so I would like to take a moment of silence, to honor the victims on whose behalf I stand here today, and to commemorate the 124,000 of them who will be killed during the next sixty seconds.

(Sixty seconds of silence)

Thank you.

And the truth was that an entire society of rational, caring people – just like myself – had somehow checked their hearts and minds at the door to enable a global atrocity that has caused more bloodshed than all wars, genocides, famines, and natural disasters combined, in what could only be called a collective madness.

We tearfully bury the bodies of deceased dogs, yet we contentedly consume the bodies of dead pigs. We stop in our tracks to return a fallen bird to her nest, while our chicken nuggets await us back home. We laugh beside our children as they reach toward the calf in the petting zoo, though we feed them the very milk that was taken from this baby, milk that was taken along with his mother. We would call it abuse if a happy, healthy golden retriever were slaughtered just because people liked the way her thighs taste, and yet, when the very same thing is done to individuals of other species we call it humane. We don snorkels and masks and fins to stare in awe at the sundry creatures of the sea, balm to our busy minds, yet we may also soothe ourselves by tricking these same beings into impaling themselves to death on the ends of our sharpened hooks. And the methods of mass destruction….How many times had I heedlessly driven past the squat, elongated factories – windowless sheds in remote locations in which hundreds of thousands of individuals were caged and confined, castrated and cauterized and cut open – factories that bore a haunting resemblance to other architectures of the darker chapters of our history? And how many times had I cheerfully hummed to my radio as truckloads of terrified animals passed me on their way to slaughter, the whites of their eyes flashing from behind dark little slats?

Something was horribly wrong.

How on earth had such a glaring truth been so fully eclipsed by denial?


OMG !! I could hardly read the whole post without feeling ill. Feel like I should become a vegetarian.

[shcisamax]

Then for sure you got the point. It is upsetting but is a worthwhile consideration.

[Villages PL]

Nelson Mandela? Food?
After a life of eating green and right and working as a chef
in the world of veggies and etc etc etc
had a heart attack at age 56
Now I eat meat and leafy greens and all vegetables. Lots of salmon and fish
and meat meat meat. BP and all blood work SHOCKED my Dr.
Shocked me too. Lost about 40lbs all by eating like people have for million of years.
I come from a family with vege heads and very educated food 'experts' all ill and anemic. I've never looked this good or felt better.
There is no connection between eating fat and heart or cancer illnesses.
Oh yes.. and I've increased my alcohol consumption from one drink a day to three.

I would avoid toxic sick relationships and family who like to screw with your head.
THAT is a road to health.
Just my two cents.
Neal G

The above anecdote is confusing at best but here's what I think it means. You can eat green but if you have stress from, "toxic sick relationships and family who like to screw with your head," you can still get a heart attack because eating green doesn't cancel out toxic stress. On the other hand, if you learn to control the stress and eat a healthy diet which includes some meat, you can do well. No one ever said that you will suddenly drop dead from eating meat. That's not how it works; it's about averages.

We can all come up with anecdotes: Dave Thomas, the founder of Wendy's, died at age 69. He often appeared in his own TV ads and looked healthy. He apparently believed in his own hamburger product and ate plenty of them as he liked to frequently show up at new Wendy's openings. Looking healthy isn't everything, it's all about what's going on below the surface.

What really counts is the longevity records achieved by large groups of people. When the book, "The Okinawa Program", came out many years ago, Okinawans held the undisputed record for health and longevity. And, at that time, only a very small percentage of their diet consisted of animal protein. It was a very small fraction compared to the American diet. (I can get those percentages if you like.)

Now there are the Seventh Day Adventists. They are vegans and vegetarians and are the new record-holders for health and longevity. In a recent study, it has been learned that they have an average lifespan that is 10 years longer than the average American. That doesn't come from an anecdote, that comes from a study of 30,000 Seventh Day Adventists.

[Villages PL]

I've heard the statement many times that veganism, vegetarianism, or environmentalism, is like a religion. And it always makes me wonder: if the person who says it thinks that religion is good, isn't it logical to think that anything like it would also be good?

The statement that, "it's like a religion", reminds me of someone who has been known to say that, from time-to-time, on the radio. The person I'm thinking of lives a life that is consumed by politics to the point where politics is like a religion to him. (People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.)

Many things in life can be like a religion, even economics. The chairman of the Federal Reserve Board is like the "Pope" of economics and the rest of the board members are like Archbishops. They have their occasional meetings to set monetary policy etc., and we are mere mortals who worship at their feet.;)

[jpharmat]

I don't know if Veganism is a religion, but it is surely a lifestyle.

[shcisamax]

I think of it as a life choice.

[rubicon]

"I believe in sampling as much of a variety as I can"

Rubi, what is your BMI

Hi jimbo: Never saw this post until now (6/16/@2:22PM) Not to skirt your question but I do not know. I can tell you I am 5'11"weigh 215 have a flat stomach work out three or four times a week have outstanding heart related stats. I am a high consumer of protein and low on sugar. I don't smoke drink in moderation and get the required rest one needs.

BMI is faulty because it doesn't distinguish between measuring what is muscle or what is fat.

You have heard me talk about moderation in all things. As for the vegan diet. To me it is like using 100% ethanol in a car resulting in not maximizing energy efficiency and causing damage to your engine to boot.

Experts are rethinking saturated fats for everyone and essentially say meat protein is good for those over 65. the reason is the body's decreased absorption rate as we age.

Personal Best Regards: