No legal way to exit roundabout to resident gate

[kittygilchrist]

The following was confirmed yesterday by a Sumter Deputy: There is a problem with design of roundabout exits into to Village gates that makes one particular maneuver impossible to safely and legally perform.

To follow using a diagram, click the brochure below and follow using the right side diagram. Let's say you are a resident entering the traffic circle in the car that is lowest on the diagram, intending to turn left (taking the 3rd exit)...

So you are in the proper lane, the inside lane. As you approach the 3rd exit, you see that the inside lane carries you to the visitor gate. But you are a resident. How can you change lanes against traffic that may be merging behind you?

My answer is you can't without violating lane change rules and crossing the path of oncoming drivers. In those situations, I use the visitor gate. I've had several near crashes. The deputy said that when there is a crash, "I try to figure out who's at fault." throws his hands in the air; gives a wry chuckle...what else can he do..

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf

[Villageshooter]

I just split the lanes I try to stay right in the middle of both lanes that way I can go either way it keeps everybody behind me behind me kind of like being the pace car I know your frustration I sometimes worry does the light in the refrigerator really go out when you close the door!?

[Bonanza]

The following was confirmed yesterday by a Sumter Deputy: There is a problem with design of roundabout exits into to Village gates that makes one particular maneuver impossible to safely and legally perform.

To follow using a diagram, click the brochure below and follow using the right side diagram. Let's say you are a resident entering the traffic circle in the car that is lowest on the diagram, intending to turn left (taking the 3rd exit)...

So you are in the proper lane, the inside lane. As you approach the 3rd exit, you see that the inside lane carries you to the visitor gate. But you are a resident. How can you change lanes against traffic that may be merging behind you?

My answer is you can't without violating lane change rules and crossing the path of oncoming drivers. In those situations, I use the visitor gate. I've had several near crashes. The deputy said that when there is a crash, "I try to figure out who's at fault." throws his hands in the air; gives a wry chuckle...what else can he do..

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf

Kitty -- you are 100% correct!

Regardless of how many Villagers say they love them or whatever, the circles are hazardous. Why, they've even been glorified with the designer name of "round-abouts" (we aren't in England; this is the U. S.). Everyone will write in saying to do this or do that, but the bottom line is you never know what the other guy will do and in most cases, it's hard to guess what we should do! They are much too small to navigate safely and the painted lines instantly show you how to commit murder or suicide; take your pick. They never should have been installed in this community but I guess the developer thought this "eye candy" was a good idea.

I'll say again what I've said before: Our circles are nothing more than unsafe gas guzzlers. Morse and Buena Vista should have gone straight through with perhaps, an occasional traffic light. Villages entering these two main thorofares should have stop signs, just like in any neighborhood in the U. S. That is also what would have made it safe to enter each Village, but no -- they just keep putting in more of the damn circles!

[mrsanborn]

The following was confirmed yesterday by a Sumter Deputy: There is a problem with design of roundabout exits into to Village gates that makes one particular maneuver impossible to safely and legally perform.

To follow using a diagram, click the brochure below and follow using the right side diagram. Let's say you are a resident entering the traffic circle in the car that is lowest on the diagram, intending to turn left (taking the 3rd exit)...

So you are in the proper lane, the inside lane. As you approach the 3rd exit, you see that the inside lane carries you to the visitor gate. But you are a resident. How can you change lanes against traffic that may be merging behind you?

My answer is you can't without violating lane change rules and crossing the path of oncoming drivers. In those situations, I use the visitor gate. I've had several near crashes. The deputy said that when there is a crash, "I try to figure out who's at fault." throws his hands in the air; gives a wry chuckle...what else can he do..

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf

I believe there is an easy fix to this problem. As per the diagram, add an additional "Channelization Island" to force the inside lane driver who is turning left to the outside lane allowing that driver to pick either entrance. Whether or not this prevents the nut traveling in the same direction as you in the outside lane from rounding the circle to exit at the third exit is debatable. Take for example the roundabout at the St James gate. The south side of the roundabout has a "channelization island" forcing the driver to the outside lane in that part of the circle only but allowing that driver to either stay in the left lane to continue north on BV or stay right into the golf course. But the north side of the roundabout does not have the "channelization island" allowing both lanes to be active. The driver who is traveling north on BV and intends on entering the St James gate needs to drift from the inside lane to the outside lane (on the north side of the circle) to make the resident entrance and prevent vehicles traveling south on BV from merging into the the roundabout. I might be wrong but I think the Stillwater/Canal roundabout has two "channelization islands". Gotta love the term, channelization island!

[George Bieniaszek]

The easiest fix would be to make the roundabouts one lane only. Traffic should have no issues during the non-snowbird season when The Villages is not at full capacity.

I do understand that they were designed as two lanes due to the traffic volumes.

I do understand your concern and my wife and I had many discussions when we come back "on campus". We drive 466A to BV Blvd north and take the ST. James gate to enter The Villages. We legally go into the inner or left lane and 3/4ths around change over into the Residents gate. Lots of times, due to traffic and yielding to some cars that don't know or are a bit more aggressive, we just stay in the left lane and go thru the Visitor gate.

[LndLocked]

The easiest fix would be to make the roundabouts one lane only. Traffic should have no issues during the non-snowbird season when The Villages is not at full capacity.

I do understand that they were designed as two lanes due to the traffic volumes.

I do understand your concern and my wife and I had many discussions when we come back "on campus". We drive 466A to BV Blvd north and take the ST. James gate to enter The Villages. We legally go into the inner or left lane and 3/4ths around change over into the Residents gate. Lots of times, due to traffic and yielding to some cars that don't know or are a bit more aggressive, we just stay in the left lane and go thru the Visitor gate.

There is the answer ... both from a right-of-way / legal and some times common sense perspective.

[Bogie Shooter]

:popcorn::popcorn::icon_bored:

[kittygilchrist]

The easiest fix would be to make the roundabouts one lane only. Traffic should have no issues during the non-snowbird season when The Villages is not at full capacity.

I do understand that they were designed as two lanes due to the traffic volumes.

I do understand your concern and my wife and I had many discussions when we come back "on campus". We drive 466A to BV Blvd north and take the ST. James gate to enter The Villages. We legally go into the inner or left lane and 3/4ths around change over into the Residents gate. Lots of times, due to traffic and yielding to some cars that don't know or are a bit more aggressive, we just stay in the left lane and go thru the Visitor gate.

I've come to prefer the visitor gate not only for safety due to not changing lanes as in the OP, but also for convenience.
It lifts just the same as the resident gate with the electronic card, and...
the visitor electronic eye is usually farther from the gate itself than is the eye on the resident side.

This allows me to arrive at the eye quicker, gives me lead time to roll while the gate opens, does not force another lane merge after entry (as does the resident side)...
and I'm usually not in line as are more folks using the resident side. It expedites traffic all over TV if people use whichever gate is not backed up.

(My guess is the visitor gate is straighter and more direct because construction and trades traffic uses it for big vehicles.)

[CFrance]

The following was confirmed yesterday by a Sumter Deputy: There is a problem with design of roundabout exits into to Village gates that makes one particular maneuver impossible to safely and legally perform.

To follow using a diagram, click the brochure below and follow using the right side diagram. Let's say you are a resident entering the traffic circle in the car that is lowest on the diagram, intending to turn left (taking the 3rd exit)...

So you are in the proper lane, the inside lane. As you approach the 3rd exit, you see that the inside lane carries you to the visitor gate. But you are a resident. How can you change lanes against traffic that may be merging behind you?

My answer is you can't without violating lane change rules and crossing the path of oncoming drivers. In those situations, I use the visitor gate. I've had several near crashes. The deputy said that when there is a crash, "I try to figure out who's at fault." throws his hands in the air; gives a wry chuckle...what else can he do..

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf

I'll tell ya who's at fault--the idiots who decided on roundabouts! I'm with Bonanza. I don't care what the studies show, this is not a safe area (elderly drivers, people not used to roundabouts who can't figure out the signs, crowded streets in the winter) to have roundabouts, much less two-lane roundabouts. A stop sign or traffic light every so often on BV and Morse would suffice.

[kittygilchrist]

I'll tell ya who's at fault--the idiots who decided on roundabouts! I'm with Bonanza. I don't care what the studies show, this is not a safe area (elderly drivers, people not used to roundabouts who can't figure out the signs, crowded streets in the winter) to have roundabouts, much less two-lane roundabouts. A stop sign or traffic light every so often on BV and Morse would suffice.

Hey , at least you can go around again if you would otherwise get hit trying to get in the resident lane....:highfive:
feel like an idiot, but safe...

[LndLocked]

I shutter at the thought of the unmitigated horror that would be stop signs on BVB or Morse

[ajbrown]

Regardless of lane changing "best practices", I would never exit if there is a car to my right where I cannot safely exit from the left lane. Since there is no car to my right I can safely use whichever gate I wish.

There should never be a car to your right as you are exiting from the inside lane, unless they have entered the round about incorrectly. If they have done that I am not about to prove "I am right" by taking the exit in front of them.

PS. JMO, I feel much safer traversing a round-about than going through an intersection when the light is green. No one can kill me in a round about...

[bonrich]

I don't believe it matters as you exit the round-about to a gate whether you use the visitor or resident lanes. Both work equally well and the same. In fact there are exit lanes on some of the newer gates that have the two lanes that are marked visitor/resident and resident.

[dewilson58]

:22yikes::22yikes:

[CFrance]

I've come to prefer the visitor gate not only for safety due to not changing lanes as in the OP, but also for convenience.
It lifts just the same as the resident gate with the electronic card, and...
the visitor electronic eye is usually farther from the gate itself than is the eye on the resident side.

This allows me to arrive at the eye quicker, gives me lead time to roll while the gate opens, does not force another lane merge after entry (as does the resident side)...
and I'm usually not in line as are more folks using the resident side. It expedites traffic all over TV if people use whichever gate is not backed up.

(My guess is the visitor gate is straighter and more direct because construction and trades traffic uses it for big vehicles.)

I agree with most of what you say, except that... if you are in the inside lane, no matter which entrance you use, you have to cross over that outside lane to get to the gate. And there are so many people who don't yield when entering the roundabout because they think they don't have to if their lane is clear. That puts them frequently in the outside lane when you are crossing over.

If someone's at the yield sign as I pass it on the inside lane, I really keep an eye on them to see where they're going to end up vis-a-vis where I am when crossing over. That means I have to be looking at two places at once.

Roundabouts stink, IMO.

[baustgen]

So, use the visitors gate. It's free.

[Challenger]

I shutter at the thought of the unmitigated horror that would be stop signs on BVB or Morse

I like Round Abouts as opposed to perpendiculay intersections, controlled by stop signs or stop lights.

Yes you must be alert. You need to scan your mirrors , follow the basic rules and use common sense.

Intersections waste massive amounts of fuel, make serious high speed head on and Tbone collisions possible .

I vote for the circles

[KathieI]

I like Round Abouts as opposed to perpendiculay intersections, controlled by stop signs or stop lights.

Yes you must be alert. You need to scan your mirrors , follow the basic rules and use common sense.

Intersections waste massive amounts of fuel, make serious high speed head on and Tbone collisions possible .

I vote for the circles

Me too,,, and as far as your eyes darting around to make sure some idiot isn't going to slam into you when they are in the wrong,,, that's the way it is in big city driving. You always must be alert and on the defensive and anticipate what the next guy will be doing.

We all know that many people do not know what the word "Yield" means, so if they don't, I do and I slow down for them. Big deal... Better than a fender bender.

I think traffic lights and stop signs are not necessarily the answer, look how many accidents we have on the corner of Morse and 466A. It goes on and on.....

Roundabouts are so much more attractive with all the flowers and foliage than having a huge ugly traffic light or 4 way stop sign that no one understands how to get through.

[justjim]

I can't even come up with an "educated guess" to how many dollars I've spent in gasoline waiting for a traffic light to change. The roundabouts make "cents" (dollars) to me.

[kittygilchrist]

Can we refocus on the topic of danger getting from the left lane into the resident gate lane? Roundabouts aren't likely to change.
That leaves just us drivers to do the best we can.

As for me, if I'm negotiating a turn into a Village gate where I'm supposed to approach from the left lane, I will stay in the left lane and use the visitor gate. That's such a simple solution it seems it should go without saying.

[ScottRAB]

What do the lane use signs approaching the roundabout say. All motorists entering a modern roundabout must yield to all motorists in the circulatory roadway, both lanes. If you are on the inside lane and making a left turn, then you should be able to complete the left turn to exit. If the exit does not have two lanes, then the inside lane should taper out as you go around so it becomes the outside lane as you approach your 'left turn' exit.

[DDoug]

What gets me is when someone stops in the circle to let the other traffic go. Also I have always said these circles are to small diameter to be used properly. But I do agree just go in either side the card works both.

[dewilson58]

Can we refocus on the topic of danger getting from the left lane into the resident gate lane? Roundabouts aren't likely to change.
That leaves just us drivers to do the best we can.

As for me, if I'm negotiating a turn into a Village gate where I'm supposed to approach from the left lane, I will stay in the left lane and use the visitor gate. That's such a simple solution it seems it should go without saying.

Looks like you answered your own OP.

Nothing is perfect.

Defensive driving is always good.

[Polar Bear]

...As for me, if I'm negotiating a turn into a Village gate where I'm supposed to approach from the left lane, I will stay in the left lane and use the visitor gate. That's such a simple solution it seems it should go without saying.

Agree, Kitty. And to paraphrase what I believe George Carlin once said...it goes without saying. That's the reason I'm saying it. ;^)

[Bogie Shooter]

Can we agree that the roundabouts are what they are and are not going to change?

[TNLAKEPANDA]

The following was confirmed yesterday by a Sumter Deputy: There is a problem with design of roundabout exits into to Village gates that makes one particular maneuver impossible to safely and legally perform.

To follow using a diagram, click the brochure below and follow using the right side diagram. Let's say you are a resident entering the traffic circle in the car that is lowest on the diagram, intending to turn left (taking the 3rd exit)...

So you are in the proper lane, the inside lane. As you approach the 3rd exit, you see that the inside lane carries you to the visitor gate. But you are a resident. How can you change lanes against traffic that may be merging behind you?

My answer is you can't without violating lane change rules and crossing the path of oncoming drivers. In those situations, I use the visitor gate. I've had several near crashes. The deputy said that when there is a crash, "I try to figure out who's at fault." throws his hands in the air; gives a wry chuckle...what else can he do..

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf


That is exactly what I thought the first time I encountered those two lane round-a-bouts! They really should be single lane! No one in the Villages needs to be in that big of a rush.

[xkeowner]

I have lived overseas in countries with roundabouts for ten years of my life and they are a significantly more effective method to keep traffic moving versus stop lights/signs. The problem is with the residents here never being properly trained in navigating them and a County Commisioner's brochure designed to protect us from ourselves rather than effectively move traffic under the guidelines followed elsewhere. First note that most TV roundabout lanes are separated by dashed lines. This should be standardized at all roundabouts but is not, adding to the confusion. In all other locations I have been changing lanes within a roundabout is not only permitted, but encouraged. The same cautions and rules apply as changing lanes on a straight stretch of road (check lane, signal, etc.). To exit from the center lane to the residents lane move over safely using a turn signal to the outside lane as you pass the second exit. One must be be cautious of others incorrectly continuing all the way around the outside lane and also of drivers entering the roundabout rather than yielding to vehicles already in the roundabout.

Let the attacks begin.

[ajbrown]

Can we refocus on the topic of danger getting from the left lane into the resident gate lane? Roundabouts aren't likely to change.
That leaves just us drivers to do the best we can.

As for me, if I'm negotiating a turn into a Village gate where I'm supposed to approach from the left lane, I will stay in the left lane and use the visitor gate. That's such a simple solution it seems it should go without saying.

Your approach seems logical and is one of their best practices, so hard to argue with that. My question is who are you concerned about merging with after exiting round about?

From my experience I have never had an issue merging to the resident gate lane. As I posted earlier, there should be NO CAR in that right lane to merge with if I have safely exited the roundabout to a Village with gates.

No argument here, just trying to understand where you see the issue?

[CFrance]

Can we agree that the roundabouts are what they are and are not going to change?
Yes. And the roundabout lovers, of course, win. They're not going away (that would be the roundabouts, not the lovers). But can we agree that us roundabout haters who lose get to b**** ad nauseum? Because we will, every time the subject comes up.

Right, Bonanza?

[slipcovers]

That is exactly what I thought the first time I encountered those two lane round-a-bouts! They really should be single lane! No one in the Villages needs to be in that big of a rush.

I totally agree, they should be 1 lane. I have a large roundabout near me and I have watched how it works smoothly. Every car enters 1 lane, yielding, and exits smoothly on right. In TV there are small circles with 2 lanes. For instance, I usually go north on BV from 466a, go 3/4 around to take a right into St Charles. If I am supposed to be in the left lane, I have to cross over quickly to the right lane to enter St Charles. If I am going straight on BV, I am supposed to be in the right lane. It would be safer to stay in the right lane and go 3/4 around, right into St. Charles.

Cars today have blind spots, head rests, and slop up in the back, which makes it differcult to see oncoming traffic.

[Big O]

That is exactly what I thought the first time I encountered those two lane round-a-bouts! They really should be single lane! No one in the Villages needs to be in that big of a rush.

The second lane is specifically for contractors to enter and exit the roundabout at any speed.

[kittygilchrist]

Your approach seems logical and is one of their best practices, so hard to argue with that. My question is who are you concerned about merging with after exiting round about?

From my experience I have never had an issue merging to the resident gate lane. As I posted earlier, there should be NO CAR in that right lane to merge with if I have safely exited the roundabout to a Village with gates.

No argument here, just trying to understand where you see the issue?

Not easy to describe.

I enter the circle at 6 oclock, circle and exit at 9 oclock. Only after I've exited onto the short runway of vis/res gates, can I legally merge into the right lane. Traffic coming from 12 oclock can enter and exit the roundabout in a second or so completing a right turn into the resident lane.

They are entering the lane to the resident gate at the same time I am trying to merge into it, moving from a position behind and right of me and into the classic blind spot. I am now physically ahead of them in the left lane trying to merge, and even though they entered the circle after me, once they've exited and are in the right lane, they claim the right of way, where a mere an instant before had looked as if a safe merge could be executed.

[Bogie Shooter]

The second lane is specifically for contractors to enter and exit the roundabout at any speed.

Where did this directive come from??

[Mickedamouse24]

:ohdear::shocked:What difference does it make....?! Visitor or Resident gate! Just drive with caution and defensively and you will be fine..! Don''t make a big deal out of something that is fairly simple if you're paying attention!!

[Bogie Shooter]

:ohdear::shocked:What difference does it make....?! Visitor or Resident gate! Just drive with caution and defensively and you will be fine..! Don''t make a big deal out of something that is fairly simple if you're paying attention!!

This just makes so much sense. Thanks.

[Big O]

Where did this directive come from??

It was a joke. That is the way they act.

[rdhdleo]

:ohdear::shocked:What difference does it make....?! Visitor or Resident gate! Just drive with caution and defensively and you will be fine..! Don''t make a big deal out of something that is fairly simple if you're paying attention!!

Excellent! I totally agree! I always use turn signals also so others that may not be paying attention know what my intentions are! Alas turn signal use around here is almost none existent!, but that's another subject ;)

[ajbrown]

Not easy to describe.

I enter the circle at 6 oclock, circle and exit at 9 oclock. Only after I've exited onto the short runway of vis/res gates, can I legally merge into the right lane. Traffic coming from 12 oclock can enter and exit the roundabout in a second or so completing a right turn into the resident lane.

They are entering the lane to the resident gate at the same time I am trying to merge into it, moving from a position behind and right of me and into the classic blind spot. I am now physically ahead of them in the left lane trying to merge, and even though they entered the circle after me, once they've exited and are in the right lane, they claim the right of way, where a mere an instant before had looked as if a safe merge could be executed.

Your description makes perfect sense. You are describing someone entering the roundabout at 12:00 in a dangerous fashion maybe? They must give you room to pass the enter point knowing you may turn right.

I have not experienced that often (if at all). I look at it this way, if I have room to safely exit the round about from the left lane, no one will get to my blind spot. They cannot be that close or I could not safely exit for fear of right hooking them.

I merge to the right lane as soon as I am out of the roundabout. Truth be told I make my intentions pretty clear on my way OUT of the roundabout which is bending the "best practice", but IMO safer :throwtomatoes:.

[buzzy]

I guess that some residents are too proud to be seen in a visitor lane.

[LndLocked]

I totally agree, they should be 1 lane. I have a large roundabout near me and I have watched how it works smoothly. Every car enters 1 lane, yielding, and exits smoothly on right. In TV there are small circles with 2 lanes. For instance, I usually go north on BV from 466a, go 3/4 around to take a right into St Charles. If I am supposed to be in the left lane, I have to cross over quickly to the right lane to enter St Charles. If I am going straight on BV, I am supposed to be in the right lane. It would be safer to stay in the right lane and go 3/4 around, right into St. Charles.

Cars today have blind spots, head rests, and slop up in the back, which makes it differcult to see oncoming traffic.

This is without question the single most INCORRECT thing that can be done in a traffic circle! You are in effect, making a left hand turn - from the far outside lane - across all the other lanes of traffic.

[slipcovers]

This is without question the single most INCORRECT thing that can be done in a traffic circle! You are in effect, making a left hand turn - from the far outside lane - across all the other lanes of traffic.

The roundabouts should be 1 lane. All turns are right hand turns on a roundabout. HELLO

[gomoho]

I never enter a round-a-bout when there is a car coming in either lane because you never know where the person on the inside lane intends to exit. Yield to those coming before you and there is no problem.

I just realized you were talking about exiting, not entering. But the same holds true - yield to those already in the circle because I believe it is legal to cross the dotted line to get into the lane you wish to exit from.

[Mikeod]

The roundabouts should be 1 lane. All turns are right hand turns on a roundabout. HELLO
But they are not one lane and there are signs posted before that one that shows which is the proper lane to use for the road you wish to exit onto. To purposely use the wrong lane because you think it is more convenient or logical is the primary reason for vehicle conflict in the roundabouts.

The roundabouts are never going to be one lane. The guide details the proper lane usage. Those that think they know better than to follow the signs and guide are creating the problems.

And the comment about making a left turn from the right lane is accurate. It is best to consider a roundabout to be a regular intersection. To make a right turn, you would use the right lane entering it. To go straight, either lane. To make a left turn, use the left lane.

[mikestag]

I just split the lanes I try to stay right in the middle of both lanes that way I can go either way it keeps everybody behind me behind me kind of like being the pace car I know your frustration I sometimes worry does the light in the refrigerator really go out when you close the door!?

The people who moved from South New Jersey can tell you how to drive in a circle and how to exit !!!! When you are going to a gate-stay on the right lane, Oh Ya ! If you have TURN SIGNLES in your Car, Motorcycle or Golf cart PLEASE USE--USE THEM.

[CFrance]

The people who moved from South New Jersey can tell you how to drive in a circle and how to exit !!!! When you are going to a gate-stay on the right lane, Oh Ya ! If you have TURN SIGNLES in your Car, Motorcycle or Golf cart PLEASE USE--USE THEM.
That's absolutely NOT what to do when you're going 3/4 the way around the circle. And if you hit someone exiting the inside lane, you are at fault.

[EnglishJW]

I have lived overseas in countries with roundabouts for ten years of my life and they are a significantly more effective method to keep traffic moving versus stop lights/signs.


My thoughts exactly. How about these classic examples:

http://www.dvice.com/sites/dvice/files/images/arcdetriomphe.jpg



http://www.jaunted.com/files/14943/rsz_1colosseumnomocars.jpg

[kittygilchrist]

Your description makes perfect sense. You are describing someone entering the roundabout at 12:00 in a dangerous fashion maybe? They must give you room to pass the enter point knowing you may turn right.

I have not experienced that often (if at all). I look at it this way, if I have room to safely exit the round about from the left lane, no one will get to my blind spot. They cannot be that close or I could not safely exit for fear of right hooking them.

I merge to the right lane as soon as I am out of the roundabout. Truth be told I make my intentions pretty clear on my way OUT of the roundabout which is bending the "best practice", but IMO safer :throwtomatoes:.

Ya know, I was navigating roundabouts this evening and wondered if you might be edging over to the right simultaneously with the exit, thus keeping the oncoming traffic from 12 oclock in view as you shift lanes and behind you in the same lane when done...

Good. Seeing eye to eye, we are. Thanks for a sincere and intelligent discourse.

[kittygilchrist]

Excellent! I totally agree! I always use turn signals also so others that may not be paying attention know what my intentions are! Alas turn signal use around here is almost none existent!, but that's another subject ;)

I have a question about turn signals. If you are entering the circle and wanting to turn left at the third exit, do you turn on your left turn signal when entering the circle?

[CFrance]

I have a question about turn signals. If you are entering the circle and wanting to turn left at the third exit, do you turn on your left turn signal when entering the circle?
SEE?????????? How freaking confusing these roundabouts are! :duck:

[DougB]

Women drivers, sheesh!

[kittygilchrist]

SEE?????????? How freaking confusing these roundabouts are! :duck:

LOL. You're the dearest, CF. You've got your dander up as we Southerners say.

[CFrance]

LOL. You're the dearest, CF. You've got your dander up as we Southerners say.
You bet! One of my buttons, along with certain BPs.:icon_wink:

[2BNTV]

I'll tell ya who's at fault--the idiots who decided on roundabouts! I'm with Bonanza. I don't care what the studies show, this is not a safe area (elderly drivers, people not used to roundabouts who can't figure out the signs, crowded streets in the winter) to have roundabouts, much less two-lane roundabouts. A stop sign or traffic light every so often on BV and Morse would suffice.

When in the left lane going to the third exit in a roundabout, I am looking for someone on my right, to see what they are doing. If they are parallel to me, and won't let me turn right, then I go around the roundabout until it is clear.

It that makes sense!!!

[dbussone]

The roundabouts should be 1 lane. All turns are right hand turns on a roundabout. HELLO


You should try the 4 lane rotaries in the Boston area...at a pulse pounding 45 mph.

[Skybo]

So you are in the proper lane, the inside lane. As you approach the 3rd exit, you see that the inside lane carries you to the visitor gate. But you are a resident. How can you change lanes against traffic that may be merging behind you?


You don't have to change lanes, residents can use either gate, that's why there is a card reader on both sides of an unmanned gate. If you are exiting from the inside lane you should enter through the left gate, even if you are a resident. The visitor/resident signage is to encourage contractors and other visitors to enter through the left gate so that both lanes aren't backed up with "button pushers" .

I don't understand all of the over-thinking that goes on in roundabout threads. I find them very easy to safely maneuver. Even when you encounter someone who isn't doing it right, if you go slow, use your blinkers and drive defensively, there's little chance of an accident. And even if there is an accident, it's usually a low speed fender bender.

[kittygilchrist]

You don't have to change lanes, residents can use either gate, that's why there is a card reader on both sides of an unmanned gate. If you are exiting from the inside lane you should enter through the left gate, even if you are a resident. The visitor/resident signage is to encourage contractors and other visitors to enter through the left gate so that both lanes aren't backed up with "button pushers" .

I don't understand all of the over-thinking that goes on in roundabout threads. I find them very easy to safely maneuver. Even when you encounter someone who isn't doing it right, if you go slow, use your blinkers and drive defensively, there's little chance of an accident. And even if there is an accident, it's usually a low speed fender bender.

Sky, why did Socrates ask questions to which he knew the answer? If you read to the end of the OP, you'll find that I said exactly what you did: USE THE VISITOR GATE!

[Skybo]

Sky, why did Socrates ask questions to which he knew the answer? If you read to the end of the OP, you'll find that I said exactly what you did: USE THE VISITOR GATE!

Oops, sorry, I didn't realize that we were philosophizing about roundabouts. I did read the entire thread before I posted (as I always try to do). And I did read your post where you said that you use the left lane for safety and convenience. Even so, I mistakenly thought that you thought residents were supposed to enter through the right hand side. I didn't realize that you were asking a question that you already knew the answer to. Hopefully, this thread hasn't added even more confusion to those who are concerned about navigating roundabouts.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Sorry, but this is not a problem. Take a look at the diagrams and you'll see that as you're exiting the roundabout and moving onto the road with the visitors gate, there is a broken line. That broken line tells you that you are allowed to change lanes. I do it all the time going from Morse onto O'Dell Circle. It's no big deal. You just have to check your right hand rear view mirror to make sure no on is in the right hand lane. I always do this well in advance of approaching the exit and then again as I am changing lanes.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think that one of the problems that people have with the roudabouts is that they think of them in terms of an intersection. Try thinking about them as a continuation of the road that you're on with a bend in it. You simply have to be aware of the other cars around you and be aware whether they are aware of you or not.

And for the people who think that they should all be one lane, imagine all the problems with cars merging from two lanes into one. That would be far worse than what we have now. Roundabouts are a safe and efficient way of handling the many intersection we have on our main roads.

[Bonanza]

I shutter at the thought of the unmitigated horror that would be stop signs on BVB or Morse

Well, what did you have before you moved to TV???
You had traffic lights and stop signs!
I guarantee you had fewer accidents then than you do now.
Furthermore, at least everyone knew what to do; they had to stop!

[Bonanza]

Yes. And the roundabout lovers, of course, win. They're not going away (that would be the roundabouts, not the lovers). But can we agree that us roundabout haters who lose get to b**** ad nauseum? Because we will, every time the subject comes up.

Right, Bonanza?

CFrance -- Correct with every word!

It seems that all the yea-sayers have their own solutions to a never ending problem, none of which work.
Regardless of all the talk, no one can really feel comfortable navigating these circles, mostly because of the other guy.
And we all know that the other guy doesn't know how to drive!

Stop signs and traffic lights are safe, unless you go through them.
The Villages circles are NOT.

[Bonanza]

OMG . . . Have you read all the B. S. regarding how to navigate these stupid, too small circles???

Common sense and logic tells me there can't be 100 solutions to one problem.
The circles present too many problems for too many people
who all think they have the answer and don't know how to drive, anyway.

The answer is: get rid of the circles
Yeah, right!
:a040:

[Skybo]

Well, what did you have before you moved to TV???
You had traffic lights and stop signs!
I guarantee you had fewer accidents then than you do now.
Furthermore, at least everyone knew what to do; they had to stop!


Fewer accidents than what? How many accidents have you seen or heard about in roundabouts here? And of any roundabout accidents you know of (if any) how many have been serious? There have been many, many serious accidents caused by red light runners at lighted intersections on Buena Vista, Morse, 466 & 466A. And the traffic backups that would be caused by lights or stop signs all the way up Morse and Buena Vista would be crazy

CFrance -- Correct with every word!

It seems that all the yea-sayers have their own solutions to a never ending problem, none of which work.
Regardless of all the talk, no one can really feel comfortable navigating these circles, mostly because of the other guy.
And we all know that the other guy doesn't know how to drive!

Stop signs and traffic lights are safe, unless you go through them.
The Villages circles are NOT.

What "never ending problems"? Large volumes of traffic have been successfully maneuvering through the roundabouts in The Villages for years, with very few incidents. I feel totally comfortable in roundabouts, as does everyone I know who have been here for awhile and are half-decent drivers. You're right about one thing, traffic lights are safe unless someone runs them...which happens much more frequently, and with much more serious results than the occasional fender bender in a roundabout.

The traffic engineers got it right.

And for all of the folks out there who are thinking about moving here, and might be worrying about roundabouts...don't worry. They work, and once you get the hang of them, they are easy and efficient.

[CFrance]

Fewer accidents than what? How many accidents have you seen or heard about in roundabouts here? And of any roundabout accidents you know of (if any) how many have been serious? There have been many, many serious accidents caused by red light runners at lighted intersections on Buena Vista, Morse, 466 & 466A. And the traffic backups that would be caused by lights or stop signs all the way up Morse and Buena Vista would be crazy



What "never ending problems"? Large volumes of traffic have been successfully maneuvering through the roundabouts in The Villages for years, with very few incidents. I feel totally comfortable in roundabouts, as does everyone I know who have been here for awhile and are half-decent drivers. You're right about one thing, traffic lights are safe unless someone runs them...which happens much more frequently, and with much more serious results than the occasional fender bender in a roundabout.

The traffic engineers got it right.

And for all of the folks out there who are thinking about moving here, and might be worrying about roundabouts...don't worry. They work, and once you get the hang of them, they are easy and efficient.

There are more accidents at the St. James gate roundabout than there are at BV and 466A or Morse and 466A. they happen a few times a week, as opposed to at those big intersections where they happen maybe once a month.

[Skybo]

There are more accidents at the St. James gate roundabout than there are at BV and 466A or Morse and 466A. they happen a few times a week, as opposed to at those big intersections where they happen maybe once a month.

I go through the St. James gate at least twice a day, sometimes several times a day. And in four years I have seen maybe two or three fender-benders in that roundabout. I don't wish to doubt you, but a "few" accidents every week? In that one roundabout? How did you hear about all of these accidents that are occurring throughout the week?

[kittygilchrist]

The official brochure for navigating roundabouts specifically states "do not change lanes..as you exit"...therefore, if I change lanes to get in the RESIDENT lane, that is a violation of traffic law. (as in the OP, there is no legal way...)

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf

What if we all just forget whether the gate says visitor or resident, and stay in the legally designated and safer lane: inside for a left turn, outside for a right turn?

[bonrich]

I guess that some residents are too proud to be seen in a visitor lane.

Bingo, hit it right on the head! Nobody wants to be a "visitor".

[l2ridehd]

The deputy sheriff is wrong. There is a very legal way to do what you want. The rules of a round-about state that you must yield to anyone already in the circle. THIS MEANS BOTH LANES. If you follow the rule of law, you should never be side by side another vehicle in a round about unless you are both entering from the same entrance in which case you would be taking a different exit in the example used. So as you approach your exit if you look, the center white line becomes a dotted white line meaning it is legal to change lanes for your exit. The real problem is that people do not follow the law and do really stupid things in these circles. Like go around 270 degrees in the outside lane, or enter using the left lane and take the first exit, or a new one in this thread, straddle the lanes.

A round about is a traffic light replacement. Nothing more. Would you go a four lane traffic right and make a left turn from the right lane? Would you make a right turn from the left lane? I certainly hope not.

[SantaClaus]

We used to have a plain stop sign intersection at the end of our road, which teed into a more heavily travelled road. It would sometimes back up 20 cars deep because someone was trying to make a left and just couldn't get a break. They have since replaced it with a roundabout and traffic never backs up and I can't remember the last time I even had to come to a full stop before entering.my biggest problem is the folks who completely ignore the 15mph signs and barrel through at 35-40! But even with such dolts the roundabout is better since accidents are prone to be glancing blows instead of right angle impacts.

The best multi-lane roundabouts I've seen are at Hilton Head, they keep the right turn traffic completely isolated:
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36749

[CFrance]

The deputy sheriff is wrong. There is a very legal way to do what you want. The rules of a round-about state that you must yield to anyone already in the circle. THIS MEANS BOTH LANES. If you follow the rule of law, you should never be side by side another vehicle in a round about unless you are both entering from the same entrance in which case you would be taking a different exit in the example used. So as you approach your exit if you look, the center white line becomes a dotted white line meaning it is legal to change lanes for your exit. The real problem is that people do not follow the law and do really stupid things in these circles. Like go around 270 degrees in the outside lane, or enter using the left lane and take the first exit, or a new one in this thread, straddle the lanes.

A round about is a traffic light replacement. Nothing more. Would you go a four lane traffic right and make a left turn from the right lane? Would you make a right turn from the left lane? I certainly hope not.

That is the way some helpful person on this forum taught me to think of roundabouts several years ago when we first came, and I have noticed the broken lines allowing you to cross over the outside lane to get to the gate. It IS an intersection, and if people would think of it as one, they would find themselves in the correct lane, yielding to everyone, not just the person in the lane they want to be in, and not using so much sign language.

I still think they're a dumb idea.

[dewilson58]

We used to have a plain stop sign intersection at the end of our road, which teed into a more heavily travelled road. It would sometimes back up 20 cars deep because someone was trying to make a left and just couldn't get a break. They have since replaced it with a roundabout and traffic never backs up and I can't remember the last time I even had to come to a full stop before entering.my biggest problem is the folks who completely ignore the 15mph signs and barrel through at 35-40! But even with such dolts the roundabout is better since accidents are prone to be glancing blows instead of right angle impacts.

The best multi-lane roundabouts I've seen are at Hilton Head, they keep the right turn traffic completely isolated:
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36749


But which one is the Visitor Lane and which is the Resident Lane???
:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[CFrance]

But which one is the Visitor Lane and which is the Resident Lane???
:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Who cares? The roundabout itself is only one lane!

[Doro22]

The official brochure for navigating roundabouts specifically states "do not change lanes..as you exit"...therefore, if I change lanes to get in the RESIDENT lane, that is a violation of traffic law. (as in the OP, there is no legal way...)

http://www.districtgov.org/community/Roundabout-02-08-12.pdf

What if we all just forget whether the gate says visitor or resident, and stay in the legally designated and safer lane: inside for a left turn, outside for a right turn?

I've had visitors who ask me how to navigate these roundabouts, & I always tell them to treat the yield signs as a stop sign if another vehicle is coming at you. (It doesn't matter which lane that other vehicle us in because they may change lanes & cross your path.) Personally, I try not to be in a roundabout if another car is in it, but that doesn't always work. What I really really don't get is this: how come another driver feels they can cut you off 6 inches from your front bumper in order to exit???!!! Would they do that on the interstate?

It is crazy, & as others have suggested...perhaps there should be only one lane of traffic in a roundabout.:ohdear:

[kittygilchrist]

The deputy sheriff is wrong. There is a very legal way to do what you want. The rules of a round-about state that you must yield to anyone already in the circle. THIS MEANS BOTH LANES. If you follow the rule of law, you should never be side by side another vehicle in a round about unless you are both entering from the same entrance in which case you would be taking a different exit in the example used. So as you approach your exit if you look, the center white line becomes a dotted white line meaning it is legal to change lanes for your exit. The real problem is that people do not follow the law and do really stupid things in these circles. Like go around 270 degrees in the outside lane, or enter using the left lane and take the first exit, or a new one in this thread, straddle the lanes.

A round about is a traffic light replacement. Nothing more. Would you go a four lane traffic right and make a left turn from the right lane? Would you make a right turn from the left lane? I certainly hope not.

In my opinion, drivers acting on the belief, as stated in the last paragraph that one may change lanes while exiting, is precisely what causes chaos and accidents.

One may NOT change lanes across the dotted lines when exiting. The brochure states in the blue box.. Best Practices "Do not change lanes within the roundabout or AS YOU EXIT."

A review of the diagram in the brochure demonstrates that more than half of the area of the roundabout has dotted lines between lanes. The dotted lines for crossing a lane applies only to those entering the roundabout and not to those exiting.

While incoming traffic may be expected to yield when those in the roundabout are staying in their lane, if one changes lanes while exiting in order to get in the resident lane, an incoming driver coming into that lane will not anticipate such a move and may not have time to brake.

I thank you, and sincerely so, for your post. That one considers a roundabout to be a traffic light replacement underscores the need for all of us to understand how they are different. That dotted lines mean something different in a roundabout....well, no wonder CF is beside herself.

[CFrance]

In my opinion, drivers acting on the belief, as stated in the last paragraph that one may change lanes while exiting, is precisely what causes chaos and accidents.

One may NOT change lanes across the dotted lines when exiting. The brochure states in the blue box.. Best Practices "Do not change lanes within the roundabout or AS YOU EXIT."

A review of the diagram in the brochure demonstrates that more than half of the area of the roundabout has dotted lines between lanes. The dotted lines for crossing a lane applies only to those entering the roundabout and not to those exiting.

While incoming traffic may be expected to yield when those in the roundabout are staying in their lane, if one changes lanes while exiting to get in the resident lane, an incoming driver often does not have time to brake.

I thank you, and sincerely so, for your post. That one considers a roundabout to be a traffic light replacement underscores the need for all of us to understand how they are different. That dotted lines mean something different in a roundabout....well, no wonder CF is beside herself.

Thank gawd I'll never be beside myself in a roundabout :duck:

[dewilson58]

Who cares? The roundabout itself is only one lane!

I don't, Sheldon.

[dbussone]

I think that one of the problems that people have with the roudabouts is that they think of them in terms of an intersection. Try thinking about them as a continuation of the road that you're on with a bend in it. You simply have to be aware of the other cars around you and be aware whether they are aware of you or not.



And for the people who think that they should all be one lane, imagine all the problems with cars merging from two lanes into one. That would be far worse than what we have now. Roundabouts are a safe and efficient way of handling the many intersection we have on our main roads.


Agree 100% - when properly used.

[kittygilchrist]

Is the subject a dead horse yet? Bogie just raised from the dead several threads on roundabouts. thanks, Bogie.

[Bogie Shooter]

I just find it very silly that the same people post over and over their opinion(?) on roundabouts.
Give it up!

[CFrance]

I go through the St. James gate at least twice a day, sometimes several times a day. And in four years I have seen maybe two or three fender-benders in that roundabout. I don't wish to doubt you, but a 466 &BV or 466A & Morse"few" accidents every week? In that one roundabout? How did you hear about all of these accidents that are occurring throughout the week?

Maybe we're there at different times. I go through at "rush hour" in the a.m. and two more times during the day. I see at least one a week, sometimes two. More than I see at 466A and BV and 466A Morse, combined, although the ones there tend to be more noticeable.

However, full disclosure: my husband disagrees with me.:boxing2:

[CFrance]

I just find it very silly that the same people post over and over their opinion(?) on roundabouts.
Give it up!
I don't. And it most certainly IS an intersection.

[Bogie Shooter]

What is the value in posting over and over (50+ times) that the roundabouts should be one lane. Does anyone really believe that one dime will be spent on tearing up the streets and making them one lane?

[CFrance]

What is the value in posting over and over (50+ times) that the roundabouts should be one lane. Does anyone really believe that one dime will be spent on tearing up the streets and making them one lane?
Well, they got the dogs out of the postal centers, didn't they? They got a wall removed, didn't they?

[KathieI]

What is the value in posting over and over (50+ times) that the roundabouts should be one lane. Does anyone really believe that one dime will be spent on tearing up the streets and making them one lane?

LOL, or that they will be removed and replaced with traffic lights???? Look, there must be something better to do today, its a beautiful day in the Villages... Enjoy it.!!!

[Bogie Shooter]

Well, they got the dogs out of the postal centers, didn't they? They got a wall removed, didn't they?

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[kittygilchrist]

Maybe we're there at different times. I go through at "rush hour" in the a.m. and two more times during the day. I see at least one a week, sometimes two. More than I see at 466A and BV and 466A Morse, combined, although the ones there tend to be more noticeable.

However, full disclosure: my husband disagrees with me.:boxing2:

There is a huge difference between various villages in the length of the lanes to the gate.
st james and gilchrist are short, and curved wickedly.

[ajbrown]

I just find it very silly that the same people post over and over their opinion(?) on roundabouts.
Give it up!

If I may be so brazen, I find it very silly that the same people post over and over their opinion(?) on what other people should enjoy posting.....:duck:

PS. I apologize for an off topic post

[CFrance]

If I may be so brazen, I find it very silly that the same people post over and over their opinion(?) on what other people should enjoy posting.....:duck:

PS. I apologize for an off topic post
You are forgiven... by me, anyway. And thank you.

[Bogie Shooter]

Is it now over?

[kittygilchrist]

Is it now over?

Given that opinions on design have been offered, here is a research document for people who might want to support or challenge their position.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/00067/000676.pdf

Also, I wonder if faulty design of radial alignment of entries might allow incoming traffic to travel at unsafe speeds in certain rb's and not in others.
p 145, diagram...

[Bonanza]

Fewer accidents than what? How many accidents have you seen or heard about in roundabouts here? And of any roundabout accidents you know of (if any) how many have been serious? There have been many, many serious accidents caused by red light runners at lighted intersections on Buena Vista, Morse, 466 & 466A. And the traffic backups that would be caused by lights or stop signs all the way up Morse and Buena Vista would be crazy



What "never ending problems"? Large volumes of traffic have been successfully maneuvering through the roundabouts in The Villages for years, with very few incidents. I feel totally comfortable in roundabouts, as does everyone I know who have been here for awhile and are half-decent drivers. You're right about one thing, traffic lights are safe unless someone runs them...which happens much more frequently, and with much more serious results than the occasional fender bender in a roundabout.

The traffic engineers got it right.

And for all of the folks out there who are thinking about moving here, and might be worrying about roundabouts...don't worry. They work, and once you get the hang of them, they are easy and efficient.

It's obvious to me and any other reader of this rhetoric on our traffic circles, that they do NOT work. Too many suggestions, too many complaints, too many contradictions, too much, period! If the circles worked, we never would be reading and posting comments about them every week, without fail. Perhaps we should start labeling them beginning with a First Edition, Volume 1, Chapter 1.

[CFrance]

Is it now over?
As soon as the dog poop threads disappear.

[Bonanza]

We used to have a plain stop sign intersection at the end of our road, which teed into a more heavily travelled road. It would sometimes back up 20 cars deep because someone was trying to make a left and just couldn't get a break. They have since replaced it with a roundabout and traffic never backs up and I can't remember the last time I even had to come to a full stop before entering.my biggest problem is the folks who completely ignore the 15mph signs and barrel through at 35-40! But even with such dolts the roundabout is better since accidents are prone to be glancing blows instead of right angle impacts.

The best multi-lane roundabouts I've seen are at Hilton Head, they keep the right turn traffic completely isolated:
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36749

Santa -- there is a very good reason the Hilton Head circle works. Take a look at the size of it -- the circumference. The reason it works so well and that traffic doesn't back up is because of the size. I have driven many circles near large cities. They all work. And that is because someone who knew what they were doing made them the proper size.

'Nuf said . . .

[Bonanza]

That is the way some helpful person on this forum taught me to think of roundabouts several years ago when we first came, and I have noticed the broken lines allowing you to cross over the outside lane to get to the gate. It IS an intersection, and if people would think of it as one, they would find themselves in the correct lane, yielding to everyone, not just the person in the lane they want to be in, and not using so much sign language.

I still think they're a dumb idea.

Ditto!

You go, girl!!!

[DougB]

Santa -- there is a very good reason the Hilton Head circle works. Take a look at the size of it -- the circumference. The reason it works so well and that traffic doesn't back up is because of the size. I have driven many circles near large cities. They all work. And that is because someone who knew what they were doing made them the proper size.

'Nuf said . . .


The main reason the Hilton Head Circle works is not the circumference. Take a look at the islands between the two lanes when you enter. All traffic entering in the outside lane MUST take the first right turn.

[SantaClaus]

I guess the "'Nuff said" was meant to close the conversation, but I wanted to add that though Hilton Head is a bigger circle than the typical one at TV, the basic idea, segregating right turn traffic, works well in even smaller circles. The last picture is another Raleigh circle, that works like Hilton Head, but in a much smaller space than at TV. It looks confusing overhead, but it's quite easy at ground level. I really think the circles at TV could be vastly improved with new stripping (and maybe a tiny bit of new asphalt). I think the general idea that the inner lane has the option to exit while the outer lane has the option not to is a serious design flaw. 432394324043241

[CFrance]

I guess the "'Nuff said" was meant to close the conversation, but I wanted to add that though Hilton Head is a bigger circle than the typical one at TV, the basic idea, segregating right turn traffic, works well in even smaller circles. The last picture is another Raleigh circle, that works like Hilton Head, but in a much smaller space than at TV. It looks confusing overhead, but it's quite easy at ground level. I really think the circles at TV could be vastly improved with new stripping (and maybe a tiny bit of new asphalt). I think the general idea that the inner lane has the option to exit while the outer lane has the option not to is a serious design flaw. 432394324043241
Again... these traffic circles are in effect only one lane, and that's why they work so well. If Hilton Head and Raleigh can have one-lane traffic circles, why can't TV? In 2000 there were 2400 people per square mile in Raleigh. In 2012 there were 1600 people per square mile in TV. If a one-lane traffic circle works for Raleigh in that population density, it can work for TV.

[kittygilchrist]

The point of the OP is that changing lanes to use the resident gate is not only illegal, it causes accidents. And probably most are caused by people who are conventional, law-abiding and governed by conscience to try to do right (go thru the correct gate) and not those like me who say....Heck, I'm going in the visitor gate. It's safer.

Note: there are rare exceptions where there is a long distance to gates as some Odell exits provide where one has leisure to change lanes AFTER exiting the circle.

[Polar Bear]

It's obvious to me and any other reader of this rhetoric on our traffic circles, that they do NOT work. Too many suggestions, too many complaints, too many contradictions, too much, period! If the circles worked, we never would be reading and posting comments about them every week, without fail...

Couldn't disagree more. As with many other topics, you hear much more from those who are dissatisfied than those who are not.

Skybo had it right when he said...

"...the traffic backups that would be caused by lights or stop signs all the way up Morse and Buena Vista would be crazy...

"...What 'never ending problems'? Large volumes of traffic have been successfully maneuvering through the roundabouts in The Villages for years, with very few incidents...The traffic engineers got it right.

"And for all of the folks out there who are thinking about moving here, and might be worrying about roundabouts...don't worry"

[CFrance]

Actually, Kitty started this whole thing, and she doesn't seem to mind roundabouts!:shrug: Thanks a lot, Kitty, we're on page three!!!!!!!!!!!;)

[kittygilchrist]

Cyndy,
I'm learning as much as I can. There is abundant research yet to tap nationally. Haven't had time to talk to the sumter co. dept of transportation, who I hope will know more than anyone, and of especial interest, the ambiguous, and weird significance of dotted lines that don't universally mean the driver may cross at will.

If something needs to change with roundabouts, let's back it up with data. So far, all research I find, even internationally, granted it's highly technical and contains formulas I don't understand, but the data supports roundabouts as a safer option than stops and highly recommended trend.

but something is missing when there are numerous accidents here, no one agrees on rules, deputies throw up their hands, the regulations to not change lanes conflict with the resident lane designation...I'm not done, Bogie.

[CFrance]

Cyndy,
I'm learning as much as I can. There is abundant research yet to tap nationally. Haven't had time to talk to the sumter co. dept of transportation, who I hope will know more than anyone, and of especial interest, the ambiguous, and weird significance of dotted lines that don't universally mean the driver may cross at will.

If something needs to change with roundabouts, let's back it up with data. So far, all research I find, even internationally, granted it's highly technical and contains formulas I don't understand, but the data supports roundabouts as a safer option than stops and highly recommended option.

but something is missing when there are numerous accidents here, no one agrees on rules, deputies throw up their hands, the regulations to not change lanes conflict with the resident lane designation...I'm not done, Bogie.
Keep researching till you find a study of roundabout drivers, all of whom are over 55 and each one of whom is from a different part of the country!

I agree with your last paragraph, fer sure.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Are there really thousands of accidents at these roundabouts? I've never seen one. is traffic back up on a regular basis? I don't think I've come to a roundabout where there was more than one or two cars waiting to enter.
Sometimes I think that when people are retired and have too much time on their hands they sit around and imagine problems that don't exist.
I agree with Kitty. Let's get some hard data on the number and frequency of accidents. It would be nice to have a study done to show whether or not the roundabouts are clogging up streets and slowing down traffic.
Frankly I don't see either of these, but if you're interested go and see how these kinds of studies can be done.

[LndLocked]

....

[kittygilchrist]

....

Ernst: Confused in roundabouts? So is law enforcement | HeraldTribune.com (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120517/COLUMNIST/120519599?p=2&tc=pg)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Ernst: Confused in roundabouts? So is law enforcement | HeraldTribune.com (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120517/COLUMNIST/120519599?p=2&tc=pg)

I agree. There seems to be some contradictions int he Florida motor vehicle laws. They really should get them straightened out. I don't know why they have to change the laws for roundabouts. Juts follow the laws that are already in place.

In the case of this accident the woman on the inside should have been charged. She simply drove into the side of another car. How unaware do you have to be to do that?

On the other hand, this statement by Sousa says a lot as well. "I never saw her car until I felt the collision," Sousa says. How do you not know that there is a vehicle in the left hand lane next to you?

I swear a lot of people drive with blinders on. They see only what is in front of them. You need to constantly be aware of everything around you when you are driving a car. This comes pretty instinctively to me. I am constantly checking my mirrors without even thinking about it. Maybe that's why I have a hard time accepting that this is so hard to anyone. Driving a car involves more than just staring straight ahead.

[kittygilchrist]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Are there really thousands of accidents at these roundabouts? I've never seen one. is traffic back up on a regular basis? I don't think I've come to a roundabout where there was more than one or two cars waiting to enter.
Sometimes I think that when people are retired and have too much time on their hands they sit around and imagine problems that don't exist.
I agree with Kitty. Let's get some hard data on the number and frequency of accidents. It would be nice to have a study done to show whether or not the roundabouts are clogging up streets and slowing down traffic.
Frankly I don't see either of these, but if you're interested go and see how these kinds of studies can be done.

Gimme data, Dr. B, which exits do you use that are in effect a 270 degree turn?
Asking because you have no problem doing it and don't see accidents. Let's compare with the infamous St. James.

ps no time today to chase down answers to previous ???s

[CFrance]

Gimme data, Dr. B, which exits do you use that are in effect a 270 degree turn?
Asking because you have no problem doing it and don't see accidents. Let's compare with the infamous St. James.

ps no time today to chase down answers to previous ???s
I see these accidents every single week at St. James gate. Every. single. week. You must live north of 466

Somewhat unrelated question: Why is there a traffic light at Bailey Trail and St. Charles, two busy streets, instead of a roundabout? I go past there four times a week, all year long. There's never a backup. The backup occurs at BT & BV with people trying to get into that roundabout.

[Steve9930]

Kitty -- you are 100% correct!

Regardless of how many Villagers say they love them or whatever, the circles are hazardous. Why, they've even been glorified with the designer name of "round-abouts" (we aren't in England; this is the U. S.). Everyone will write in saying to do this or do that, but the bottom line is you never know what the other guy will do and in most cases, it's hard to guess what we should do! They are much too small to navigate safely and the painted lines instantly show you how to commit murder or suicide; take your pick. They never should have been installed in this community but I guess the developer thought this "eye candy" was a good idea.

I'll say again what I've said before: Our circles are nothing more than unsafe gas guzzlers. Morse and Buena Vista should have gone straight through with perhaps, an occasional traffic light. Villages entering these two main thorofares should have stop signs, just like in any neighborhood in the U. S. That is also what would have made it safe to enter each Village, but no -- they just keep putting in more of the damn circles!


Years ago I traveled to New Jersey and was confronted with one of these intersections (Round about). I thought they were dangerous then and I still believe they are dangerous. Today all of them that I saw in New Jersey no longer exists. They are standard intersections.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Gimme data, Dr. B, which exits do you use that are in effect a 270 degree turn?
Asking because you have no problem doing it and don't see accidents. Let's compare with the infamous St. James.

ps no time today to chase down answers to previous ???s

At least once a week and usually twice I exit Morse onto either O'Dell or Stillwater Trail. Every time, I enter enter the roundabout, going southbound, in the left hand lane and I move into the right hand lane as I'm exiting or just after I exit. I've never had a problem. I do have to watch for cars entering from northbound Morse and of course I am always aware of any cars in the roundabout on my right.

[CFrance]

Years ago I traveled to New Jersey and was confronted with one of these intersections (Round about). I thought they were dangerous then and I still believe they are dangerous. Today all of them that I saw in New Jersey no longer exists. They are standard intersections.
You are right; I forgot about that. We were living in NJ when they started taking them out.

The one in Morristown was murderous.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I see these accidents every single week at St. James gate. Every. single. week. You must live north of 466

Somewhat unrelated question: Why is there a traffic light at Bailey Trail and St. Charles, two busy streets, instead of a roundabout? I go past there four times a week, all year long. There's never a backup. The backup occurs at BT & BV with people trying to get into that roundabout.

I do live north of 466 but I travel south of 466 and south of 466a all the time.

I have no idea why there is a light at the intersection of Bailey and St James but now that you mention it, it is a bit odd. I go through that intersection quite often as I have friends in that area. I wouldn't say that I've seen backups there, but I do often have to wait for the light.

[DougB]

Enjoy this Roundabout

Yes - Roundabout - YouTube

[kittygilchrist]

At least once a week and usually twice I exit Morse onto either O'Dell or Stillwater Trail. Every time, I enter enter the roundabout, going southbound, in the left hand lane and I move into the right hand lane as I'm exiting or just after I exit. I've never had a problem. I do have to watch for cars entering from northbound Morse and of course I am always aware of any cars in the roundabout on my right.

odell crosses morse at a north and a south point? which one?
my interest is first whether there is or is not an exceptionally long stretch after exiting to shift lanes...at st james and gilchrist ya can't shift lanes after exiting...til maybe after midnight.

[champion6]

Somewhat unrelated question: Why is there a traffic light at Bailey Trail and St. Charles, two busy streets, instead of a roundabout?I believe it's because those streets have diamond lanes for the golf carts. The carts certainly can't safely enter a roundabout with the vehicles!

[Neal2tire]

Chevy Chase in European Vacation
Roundabout scene in Italy

[Skybo]

I see these accidents every single week at St. James gate. Every. single. week. You must live north of 466

Somewhat unrelated question: Why is there a traffic light at Bailey Trail and St. Charles, two busy streets, instead of a roundabout? I go past there four times a week, all year long. There's never a backup. The backup occurs at BT & BV with people trying to get into that roundabout.

Because all of the roundabouts are on Buena Vista and Morse.* They are the two main roads that run north and south through The Villages at 35 miles per hour (south of 466). The roundabouts are designed to efficiently move a high volume of traffic through these two main roads and into various villages.

*disclaimer: there may be some roundabouts that aren't on Morse or Buena Vista that I'm not aware of.

P.s. I'm still not seeing all of the "accidents" at the St James gate.

[kittygilchrist]

The easiest fix would be to make the roundabouts one lane only. Traffic should have no issues during the non-snowbird season when The Villages is not at full capacity.

I do understand that they were designed as two lanes due to the traffic volumes.

I do understand your concern and my wife and I had many discussions when we come back "on campus". We drive 466A to BV Blvd north and take the ST. James gate to enter The Villages. We legally go into the inner or left lane and 3/4ths around change over into the Residents gate. Lots of times, due to traffic and yielding to some cars that don't know or are a bit more aggressive, we just stay in the left lane and go thru the Visitor gate.

Question for those who have witness accidents or aftermath, does this describe the focal point of most accidents? A mix up between incoming traffic to the roundabout and a resident attempting to exit the roundabout into the resident lane?

Lots of residents have posted that they get into the resident lane while (not after) exiting the circle, and some say they think they are allowed to change lanes there because there is a dotted line.

Neither of those practices is in keeping with the guidelines of the official TV brochure (which is based on federal highway administration research)...

[Mikeod]

Question for those who have witness accidents or aftermath, does this describe the focal point of most accidents? A mix up between incoming traffic to the roundabout and a resident attempting to exit the roundabout into the resident lane?

Lots of residents have posted that they get into the resident lane while (not after) exiting the circle, and some say they think they are allowed to change lanes there because there is a dotted line.

Neither of those practices is in keeping with the guidelines of the official TV brochure (which is based on federal highway administration research)...
To me, the bulk of the problems are due to two mistakes. One, people not entering the RAB in the proper lane for their destination leaving it. The signs are clear as to which lane to use. The second is people failing to yield to ALL traffic to their left already in the RAB no matter which lane they occupy. If these two errors did not occur, there would be no problems exiting into either lane at the gates.

[kittygilchrist]

To me, the bulk of the problems are due to two mistakes. One, people not entering the RAB in the proper lane for their destination leaving it. The signs are clear as to which lane to use. The second is people failing to yield to ALL traffic to their left already in the RAB no matter which lane they occupy. If these two errors did not occur, there would be no problems exiting into either lane at the gates.

video of accident exiting from wrong lane...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGNNHbeICU

and....failure to yield
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pBYsLmH3ZQ

the proposed roundabout into fruitland park square..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6-IWrzrCOY

[zonerboy]

After 120 posts on this thread already, I thought I'd add my two cents worth. I follow 2 rules of thumb in dealing with roundabouts.
1) Vehicles already in the roundabout have the right of way. Respect this when entering and even after entering.
2) Do not pass or pull alongside other vehicles when traveling in the roundabout.

If people followed these principles I think accidents would be minimized. But I never drive with the expectation that other people will follow my rules or that they will use common sense. I am especially wary of what others are doing when I am in these roundabouts.

Overall I think they are great for maintaining traffic flow. Just my opinion.

[Polar Bear]

...2 rules of thumb in dealing with roundabouts.
1) Vehicles already in the roundabout have the right of way. Respect this when entering and even after entering.
2) Do not pass or pull alongside other vehicles when traveling in the roundabout.

If people followed these principles I think accidents would be minimized. But I never drive with the expectation that other people will follow my rules or that they will use common sense. I am especially wary of what others are doing when I am in these roundabouts.

Overall I think they are great for maintaining traffic flow...

Agree on all counts, zonerboy.

[kittygilchrist]

CF and others posted that the dotted lines mean you are allowed to change lanes. Someone else (can't find the post) said it's the law.

Not only is that correct, you are also allowed to pass. Federal highway markings.

United States Pavement Markings - FHWA MUTCD (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/services/publications/fhwaop02090/index.htm?utm_source=www.nbcbayarea.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=publish2)

So while the brochure says don't change lanes and everybody says never get beside another vehicle, there's no law against either in sections of the roundabout where there's a broken line, which is 50-60% or so of the time in most roundabouts.

I'll be dipped.:22yikes:

[Mikeod]

CF and others posted that the dotted lines mean you are allowed to change lanes. Someone else (can't find the post) said it's the law.

Not only is that correct, you are also allowed to pass. Federal highway markings.

United States Pavement Markings - FHWA MUTCD (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/services/publications/fhwaop02090/index.htm?utm_source=www.nbcbayarea.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=publish2)

So while the brochure says don't change lanes and everybody says never get beside another vehicle, there's no law against either in sections of the roundabout where there's a broken line, which is 50-60% or so of the time in most roundabouts.

I'll be dipped.:22yikes:
I have found it works best to use the signs to determine which lane to use and forget whether the lines are solid or dashed within the RAB.

[kittygilchrist]

I have found it works best to use the signs to determine which lane to use and forget whether the lines are solid or dashed within the RAB.

Yes, you are right. That's what you're supposed to do.

It wigs me out that federal laws allow lane change and passing across broken lines, while federally sponsored roundabout "best practices" instructional materials tell you not to ever do it.

[Bogie Shooter]

To help understand. Wig Out
From the Urban dictionary..............
To suddenly become unnecessarily worried, anxious, upset, or paranoid most often while under the influence of an intoxicating substance--especially marijuana.

Sometimes refers to a more favorable drug-induced mood change such as suddenly experiencing uncontrollable laughter, though the term "geek out" is more appropriate in this case.


:wave:

[slipcovers]

It's obvious to me and any other reader of this rhetoric on our traffic circles, that they do NOT work. Too many suggestions, too many complaints, too many contradictions, too much, period! If the circles worked, we never would be reading and posting comments about them every week, without fail. Perhaps we should start labeling them beginning with a First Edition, Volume 1, Chapter 1.

Are you suggesting that there should be traffic lights at every rotary or are you suggesting a few with stop signs at several? If stop signs, how would one navigate a left turn, cross 4 lanes, 2 north and 2 south. Or, would one turn right and go to the next light and make a U turn. Of course there would have to be a left turning lane. This would make BV 6 lanes total. There are 13 roundabouts on BV from 466A to 466 and there would be a total of 15 traffic lights.

[kittygilchrist]

To help understand. Wig Out
From the Urban dictionary..............
To suddenly become unnecessarily worried, anxious, upset, or paranoid most often while under the influence of an intoxicating substance--especially marijuana.

Sometimes refers to a more favorable drug-induced mood change such as suddenly experiencing uncontrollable laughter, though the term "geek out" is more appropriate in this case.


:wave:

LOLOL!! this from the English Daily...
wig out
Definition:
To go crazy; lose your mind.

Example:
1) Maria wigged out when she found her husband in bed with her best friend.

Etymology :
The idea behind the term is that so much activity is going on in your brain that your hair ( a 'wig' is artificial hair ) might jump off your head. The term can be positive too - you might 'wig out' when you hear really good music, for example.

Hey Bogie, I'm almost done with this topic. Hoping to get data on roundabout accidents from Sumter S.O. on Monday and then ask for review from public works engineering dept.

[Bogie Shooter]

LOLOL!! this from the English Daily...
wig out
Definition:
To go crazy; lose your mind.

Example:
1) Maria wigged out when she found her husband in bed with her best friend.

Etymology :
The idea behind the term is that so much activity is going on in your brain that your hair ( a 'wig' is artificial hair ) might jump off your head. The term can be positive too - you might 'wig out' when you hear really good music, for example.

Hey Bogie, I'm almost done with this topic. Hoping to get data on roundabout accidents from Sumter S.O. on Monday and then ask for review from public works engineering dept.

You may be, how do you convince others to stop posting the same thing over and over??

[slipcovers]

Are you suggesting that there should be traffic lights at every rotary or are you suggesting a few with stop signs at several? If stop signs, how would one navigate a left turn, cross 4 lanes, 2 north and 2 south. Or, would one turn right and go to the next light and make a U turn. Of course there would have to be a left turning lane. This would make BV 6 lanes total. There are 13 roundabouts on BV from 466A to 466 and there would be a total of 15 traffic lights.

BONANZA Any reply?

[Bogie Shooter]

There usually is....................

[CFrance]

There usually is....................

Bogie, I think you are wigged out over the fact that we are discussing this. :loco:

[Don H]

You think YOU have problems with round-a-bouts? Check the Swindon round-a-bout in England. AND, you have to drive it on the left hand side of the road.

The Magic Roundabout - Swindon's white knuckle ride! SwindonWeb guide (http://www.swindonweb.com/index.asp?m=8&s=115&ss=289)

[kittygilchrist]

This is the model being used for the new roundabout going into Fruitland Park Square, in case you missed it earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6-IWrzrCOY

[NoMoSno]

We should bring the Mythbusters to a Villages roundabout.

4 Way Stop Vs Roundabout - Mythbusters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvoFjirrgYA

[slipcovers]

Yea, the roundabouts win, by a landslide.!!!

[kittygilchrist]

This one is no laughing matter. I was riding with a friend today who took the inside lane intending to take the left turn out of the roundabout. As we approached the 3rd exit, a yielding car, assuming we would stay in the left lane, crept across the solid line of the circle.

My friend suddenly sped up and crossed the right/outside lane staying ahead of the oncoming vehicle, in order to get in the resident lane.

Exactly what I described in the OP nearly caused an accident in which I could have been victim of a hit to the passenger side door.

My friend followed federal traffic rules, crossing broken lines. The other driver assumed that he had lawfully yielded, as we were nearly past him when our car swerved into the right lane.

The bottom line: For 3rd exit turns, the location of the Resident Gate in the outside lane invites drivers to change lanes perilously.

[CFrance]

This one is no laughing matter. I was riding with a friend today who took the inside lane intending to take the left turn out of the roundabout. As we approached the 3rd exit, a yielding car, assuming we would stay in the left lane, crept across the solid line of the circle.

My friend suddenly sped up and crossed the right/outside lane staying ahead of the oncoming vehicle, in order to get in the resident lane.

Exactly what I described in the OP nearly caused an accident in which I could have been victim of a hit to the passenger side door.

My friend followed federal traffic rules, crossing broken lines. The other driver assumed that he had lawfully yielded, as we were nearly past him when our car swerved into the right lane.

The bottom line: For 3rd exit turns, the location of the Resident Gate in the outside lane invites drivers to change lanes perilously.

And no doubt the other driver probably got ticked because in his/her ignorance, he thought he did nothing wrong.

I've said my piece. Two-lane roundabouts in this area of 110,000 senior residents from all over the country, most of whom did not grow up navigating roundabouts, are a baaaaaaaaaaad idea.

[Bogie Shooter]

This one is no laughing matter. I was riding with a friend today who took the inside lane intending to take the left turn out of the roundabout. As we approached the 3rd exit, a yielding car, assuming we would stay in the left lane, crept across the solid line of the circle.

My friend suddenly sped up and crossed the right/outside lane staying ahead of the oncoming vehicle, in order to get in the resident lane.

Exactly what I described in the OP nearly caused an accident in which I could have been victim of a hit to the passenger side door.

My friend followed federal traffic rules, crossing broken lines. The other driver assumed that he had lawfully yielded, as we were nearly past him when our car swerved into the right lane.

The bottom line: For 3rd exit turns, the location of the Resident Gate in the outside lane invites drivers to change lanes perilously.

Key words..............explains it all!

[kittygilchrist]

So for the sake of discussion, if you are in a position to yield and then move in behind a vehicle that totally stops or suddenly moves in front of you, who is at fault? My opinion, which I hahaha never share, is that yielding traffic is not absolutely accountable, such as when a vehicle makes a sudden stop or changes lanes too rapidly in front of you anywhere on any road.

[Polar Bear]

So for the sake of discussion, if you are in a position to yield and then move in behind a vehicle that totally stops or suddenly moves in front of you, who is at fault? My opinion, which I hahaha never share, is that yielding traffic is not absolutely accountable, such as when a vehicle makes a sudden stop or changes lanes too rapidly in front of you anywhere on any road.

IMO, a rapid, careless lane changer within the circle would likely be the culprit...you can enter the circle carefully while yielding to a vehicle on the inside lane. But if a quick stop causes a rear end collision, I doubt the quick-stopper would be found at fault.

[CFrance]

So for the sake of discussion, if you are in a position to yield and then move in behind a vehicle that totally stops or suddenly moves in front of you, who is at fault? My opinion, which I hahaha never share, is that yielding traffic is not absolutely accountable, such as when a vehicle makes a sudden stop or changes lanes too rapidly in front of you anywhere on any road.
Any time you run into the car in front of you, you are at fault--even if the car in front of you decides to slam on its breaks, for whatever reason. My friend was rear-ended by a woman who claimed my friend shouldn't have stopped in her lane because an emergency vehicle she stopped for was in another lane.

The cop said, "Lady, even if she stops to pick her nose and you run into her, you are at fault."

[buzzy]

"My friend followed federal traffic rules, crossing broken lines."

It also has to be safe to cross the broken line. It this case it was not safe. Even though the other car should have waited longer to enter the roundabout, that does not make it correct to swerve in front of him.

[champion6]

<sarcasm on> I'm confident that within no more than 200 more posts, this problem will be completely solved ... for ever and ever. <sarcasm off>

[kittygilchrist]

<sarcasm on> I'm confident that within no more than 200 more posts, this problem will be completely solved ... for ever and ever. <sarcasm off>

Keep counting.
The sumter sheriff's office is pulling up data on 12 months of accident reports on BVB and Morse. Analyzing which accidents were at intersections with roundabouts will be the next step.

[maybe]

Any time you run into the car in front of you, you are at fault--even if the car in front of you decides to slam on its breaks, for whatever reason. My friend was rear-ended by a woman who claimed my friend shouldn't have stopped in her lane because an emergency vehicle she stopped for was in another lane.

The cop said, "Lady, even if she stops to pick her nose and you run into her, you are at fault."

----------------

Actually that is not true. Exceptions have been found by courts.

[CFrance]

----------------

Actually that is not true. Exceptions have been found by courts.
Maybe on a freeway, but on a city street? That's a real question, not sarcasm. I wonder what the exceptions have been.

[Bogie Shooter]

Keep counting.
The sumter sheriff's office is pulling up data on 12 months of accident reports on BVB and Morse. Analyzing which accidents were at intersections with roundabouts will be the next step.

And then what?

[Bogie Shooter]

<sarcasm on> I'm confident that within no more than 200 more posts, this problem will be completely solved ... for ever and ever. <sarcasm off>

No one is listening.

[CFrance]

I suppose if you cut somebody off and they rear-ended you, that would be an exception.

[kittygilchrist]

And then what?

Then, the data will be analyzed by an amateur, me, for inconsistencies in number of accidents per roundabout and a recommendation made to the Sumter Roads engineer, Jeff Davis, to determine whether review of the design, traffic flow, signage, public education, etc, is warranted to usher in possible improvements.

[kittygilchrist]

I suppose if you cut somebody off and they rear-ended you, that would be an exception.

sheepish icon...we don't have one. I cut somebody off by changing lanes.
I was the car in front, but it was my fault. The LAW won and they were right.

[Average Guy]

Then, the data will be analyzed by an amateur, me, for inconsistencies in number of accidents per roundabout and a recommendation made to the Sumter Roads engineer, Jeff Davis, to determine whether review of the design, traffic flow, signage, public education, etc, is warranted to usher in possible improvements.

This may not be as simple to analyze as it seems. For example, if one roundabout has had more accidents than another it does no necessarily mean that it is a more dangerous roundabout. It could simply be because that roundabout gets more traffic. The roundabout at the Lake Miona Rec Center for example, may have more accidents than the ones near it, but the accident rate per vehicle using that roundabout may be less.

:posting:

[kittygilchrist]

This may not be as simple to analyze as it seems. For example, if one roundabout has had more accidents than another it does no necessarily mean that it is a more dangerous roundabout. It could simply be because that roundabout gets more traffic. The roundabout at the Lake Miona Rec Center for example, may have more accidents than the ones near it, but the accident rate per vehicle using that roundabout may be less.

:posting:

exactly, yes. that's the kind of thing for experts to figure out.

[kittygilchrist]

I was done about 100 posts ago...................................

Bogie, Your post is #155. If there were an award for Most Persistent, you'd win.

[dewilson58]

I was done about 100 posts ago...................................

:BigApplause:

I have to just quit looking................but it's like a car accident and I can't stop.

[kittygilchrist]

:BigApplause:

I have to just quit looking................but it's like a car accident and I can't stop.

LOL. I hope to surprise you with actual information someday...
until then, sleep well, and check here in the morning.