74 school shootings since 12-14-12. Newtown

[Taltarzac725]

If It's A School Week In America, Odds Are There Will Be A School Shooting (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/10/school-shootings-since-newtown_n_5480209.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D486691)

Anyone have any practical suggestions about how to stop these shootings? More education about how to stop marginalizing kids done by other kids? Bullying has always been around but why has it gone to such extremes? Copycat shooters who feel that's the only way to get what they want?

[Bogie Shooter]

And its going to be solved on TOTV? Really?

[buggyone]

It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Are the shootings the result of bad parenting, coddled children, violent video games, gratuitous violence in movies, removal of God from schools, or just plain crazy people?

Before jumping to a quick answer remember that one answer may not fit all circumstances.

[SantaClaus]

I think that teaching our kids that we are just grown up germs and that morality is a mere social contract (to protect the weak) might have a big hand in it. Add in a coddling parent who applauds the slightest effort and shelters little egos like a hen on the roost and I'd say you've got a pretty good handle on the problem.

[buggyone]

I think that teaching our kids that we are just grown up germs and that morality is a mere social contract (to protect the weak) might have a big hand in it. Add in a coddling parent who applauds the slightest effort and shelters little egos like a hen on the roost and I'd say you've got a pretty good handle on the problem.

You are not saying that a parent should scoff at a child's mediocre achievement and say that you expected him to do better when the child performed at their peak level, are you? Remember, there has to be some kid playing in right field - not everyone is capable of playing first base. Applaud that catch in right field even though it was a complete accident!

I do not believe in the t-ball games where there is no winner. Everyone has to learn that life has winning moments and losing moments. Rewards are not given for participation.

However, it is important to put your arm around your child and say, "I am proud of you."

[SantaClaus]

Yep, you're really good at stating the things I'm not saying. You might have guessed from my chosen occupation that I do not hate children. I do hate it when parents pretend the precocious is precious, or that disrespectfulness is passed off as playfulness. Your child is not the center of the universe, not even YOUR universe (or certainly should not be), and if you teach him that he is you have completely failed to prepare him for the real world (the ultimate goal of parenting). The father who fails to discipline his child (yes, including corporeal) hates his child, according to the scriptures of all three major world religions.

[BobnBev]

Are the shootings the result of bad parenting, coddled children, violent video games, gratuitous violence in movies, removal of God from schools, or just plain crazy people?

Yep, all of the above

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Many of the statistics with regards to school shootings, especially those reported by former NYC mayor, Michael Bloomberg's anti gun groups, are exagerated, built up or completely false.

Here's one article. There are hundreds more showing how these people will say whatever they think will get them the results they want.

Bloomberg (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/379024/bloombergs-bogus-gun-control-numbers-john-r-lott-jr)

[Rags123]

Everytime this kind of thing happens, it becomes a discussion of guns.

We ignore the beating deaths, the stabbing deaths, etc and etc and on and on.

My opinion is very strong that as the family unit breaks down in this country and is actually becoming the butt of jokes it will get worse. We have watered down marriage, parenting so much it means very little.

That, to me is the reason. I do agree that children are coddled terribly today....if you punish, our society says you are bad.....I really get discouraged at how our society talks about and manifests its disgust toward marriage and family.

My vote on many things is moral decay in this country. We keep looking for issues to blame, and it is right in front of us, but it would be difficult to defend marriage or family thus we need issues to blame !

[ilovetv]

There are various factors that feed into each shooter's dark scheme of murder and suicidal quest for fame, but one of the biggest, I think, is kids left unattended and unsupervised, pretty much raising themselves. The parent(s) are indeed around, but their focus is on other things...pursuits of their own.

Then when they start to go off track in school and start getting marginalized by other kids for acting weird, they are often just a number in a sea of 2,000 other students.

Teachers individually try to help them, but their year or semester with them ends. Then the parents often will not accept that their child is doing anything wrong, much less that he's showing signs of deviant behavior/thinking....and the child digs himself deeper into a hole of isolation and aberrant thinking fed by drugs, solitude, internet research, violent/bloody video games, and wayward friends into some really sick topics.

I think many of the school shooters feel unloved and home is the first place where they felt that. One thing different about parochial schools, which seem to have few if any shootings, is that the students are taught and reminded at every turn that when nobody else loves you, God always does, and He can be accessed 24/7/365 thru prayer.

I'm not advocating prayer in public schools at all, nor that parochial schools are the answer. Public schools are foundational to our nation. But kids being taught who God is, and how to access Him in our deepest, darkest moments could well be a big defining factor in the path the shooters took.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Bloomberg's latest stats on school gun violence ignore reality | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/02/17/bloomberg-latest-stats-on-school-gun-violence-ignore-reality/)

[Taltarzac725]

There are various factors that feed into each shooter's dark scheme of murder and suicidal quest for fame, but one of the biggest, I think, is kids left unattended and unsupervised, pretty much raising themselves. The parent(s) are indeed around, but their focus is on other things...pursuits of their own.

Then when they start to go off track in school and start getting marginalized by other kids for acting weird, they are often just a number in a sea of 2,000 other students.

Teachers individually try to help them, but their year or semester with them ends. Then the parents often will not accept that their child is doing anything wrong, much less that he's showing signs of deviant behavior/thinking....and the child digs himself deeper into a hole of isolation and aberrant thinking fed by drugs, solitude, internet research, violent/bloody video games, and wayward friends into some really sick topics.

I think many of the school shooters feel unloved and home is the first place where they felt that. One thing different about parochial schools, which seem to have few if any shootings, is that the students are taught and reminded at every turn that when nobody else loves you, God always does, and He can be accessed 24/7/365 thru prayer.

I'm not advocating prayer in public schools at all, nor that parochial schools are the answer. Public schools are foundational to our nation. But kids being taught who God is, and how to access Him in our deepest, darkest moments could well be a big defining factor in the path the shooters took.

Religion, country, causes, art, sports, etc. are worthwhile endeavors that can turn teens away from loneliness, despair, depression, and/or other bad influences. Of course, they have to be tempered too so as not to take over one's life.

I also hardly believe that if you take away US and other army used weapons from the civilian population--which is an impossible task anyway-- that will stop school shootings or others acts of violence in schools. They will use pistols, shotguns, rifles or whatever else is available like bows, crossbows, knives, bombs, slingshots, javelins, machetes, swords, etc.

[Doctommft]

[QUOTE=buggyone;890928]It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Well here is what you wanted. If a creep knows that a school has a guard with a gun, he/she may think twice unless their goal is death by cop. You have eliminated 50% of proposed solutions to the problem. Very narrow of you.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

[QUOTE=buggyone;890928]It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Well here is what you wanted. If a creep knows that a school has a guard with a gun, he/she may think twice unless their goal is death by cop. You have eliminated 50% of proposed solutions to the problem. Very narrow of you.

So you're saying that having armed guards in the schools would cut school shootings by 50%? Sounds like that's something that should be in the mix.
In addition, an armed guard may stop a shooter before he kills anyone or may lower the number of people shot.
I'm not saying that this is the sole answer as I agree with a lot of people on this thread. These problems are not caused by the availability of guns, but are the result of many complex sociological problems that we currently have in this country.

[DaleMN]

Love all the arm chair psychologists. :doh:

[B767drvr]

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.



What do you propose? Have the police TALK the shooter to death? :1rotfl:

[Taltarzac725]

Love all the arm chair psychologists. :doh:

That which does not destroy you, makes you stronger- Nietzsche
:icon_wink:

[billethkid]

Yup it is always guns that pulls the trigger on these occasions!
We certainly do not want to encourage discipline....report the wacko acting individuals....encourage more profiling.....metal detectors......clear back packs only......lock the schools down when the first bell rings......
Nope hafta be sure not to hurt someone's feelings or impinge upon the individual's rights....

The permissive nature of our society just will NOT allow what needs to be done.

After all these shootings what, of significance has changed to PREVENT the violence in our schools?

How many billions of dollars have been pledged to make the schools safe? Like the billions being committed to illegal alien dumping of children.....for example.

When a school shooting happens it's lights, camera, action for the usual hollow commentary like there was so much of today. Then back to business as usual.....until the next shooting/stabbing/violence.

Way too much talk and special interest pandering and CYA....words don't make anything happen.
Shame on us!

[buggyone]

I do not consider a "gun free zone" broken if the ones who have a gun are a security team. The gun free zone I mean is where the general public is not allowed to enter with a gun.

I am in favor of metal detectors and security teams in schools. Most large cities have them.

[Rags123]

Yup it is always guns that pulls the trigger on these occasions!
We certainly do not want to encourage discipline....report the wacko acting individuals....encourage more profiling.....metal detectors......clear back packs only......lock the schools down when the first bell rings......
Nope hafta be sure not to hurt someone's feelings or impinge upon the individual's rights....

The permissive nature of our society just will NOT allow what needs to be done.

After all these shootings what, of significance has changed to PREVENT the violence in our schools?

How many billions of dollars have been pledged to make the schools safe? Like the billions being committed to illegal alien dumping of children.....for example.

When a school shooting happens it's lights, camera, action for the usual hollow commentary like there was so much of today. Then back to business as usual.....until the next shooting/stabbing/violence.

Way too much talk and special interest pandering and CYA....words don't make anything happen.
Shame on us!

Allow me to repeat what this says...

"Yup it is always guns that pulls the trigger on these occasions!
We certainly do not want to encourage discipline....report the wacko acting individuals....encourage more profiling.....metal detectors......clear back packs only......lock the schools down when the first bell rings......
Nope hafta be sure not to hurt someone's feelings or impinge upon the individual's rights...."


Simply create a political issue....it is easier for everyone.

Good post BTK

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Sure glad this was not a Ban Guns post!

[TNLAKEPANDA]

May be we should bring prayer back to all schools!

[buggyone]

Sure glad this was not a Ban Guns post!

It wasn't and didn't evolve into that, did it?

[Doctommft]

[quote=Doctommft;891127]

So you're saying that having armed guards in the schools would cut school shootings by 50%? Sounds like that's something that should be in the mix.
In addition, an armed guard may stop a shooter before he kills anyone or may lower the number of people shot.
I'm not saying that this is the sole answer as I agree with a lot of people on this thread. These problems are not caused by the availability of guns, but are the result of many complex sociological problems that we currently have in this country.

You should re-read my response, then your response regarding 50% (of solutions, not shootings.

[Steve9930]

I believe there is just not one item to exam that explains this behavior we now see by our young people or some adults also. To blame these occurrences on an object is not looking at the root of the problem. To politicize these occurrences by either side shows one of the problems. Neither side trusts one another any more. Part of the problem is parenting, part is the social environment, part is our current form of education, part is our entertainment industry, part is our social programs, part is our lack of respect of authority and each other, part is our spiritual lives, part is how we communicate, part is our mental health system, Plus, Plus, and Plus. One thing I can say for sure, when a youngster who is not of legal age to buy his or her own firearm, uses it to commit a crime, negligence by someone is involved. Those that choose to own a firearm have a great responsibility to make sure that firearm is secure. The other thing I can say for sure is if the right and left attitudes do not change nothing of any useful nature will come about to help solve the problem. This is a social problem that has been in the works for years as our way of life and technology evolves and it appears we are not handling the changes well. There is also more then one type of problem with difference causes going on in our society. What happened and why it happened here has one cause. What is happening in our inner cities is another totally different problem. I no longer listen to the Orlando News because its the same thing every night. Some one was shot.

Many will call for additional firearm laws but the truth is there are plenty of firearm laws on the books that do not get enforced. More laws will not change anything. Just more laws that get selectively enforced. Lets start to enforce all the ones on the books now and then go from there.

Since this discussion will become more heated down the road to help save lives then we should provide security for all schools. What a shame this needs to be done but had we done that 74 shootings ago how many would have been avoided or limited.

We need to have an honest discussion about firearms. If you look at the statistics we do not have a rifle problem we have a pistol problem. As a firearm owner myself I do not have any problem with stronger laws when it comes to semi-auto pistols. Though multi-state background checks for buying a pistol would be a good start. Strong mandatory sentencing for using a pistol or any weapon in a crime is a another good starter. The fact of the matter if you believe that the 2nd Amendment was written to keep the Government inline your not going to do that with a semi-automatic pistol. A wheel gun for home or personal defense is more then adequate and yes you can keep all the semi-automatic rifles. In either case those that choose to own a firearm have a responsibility to keep it secure so others cannot use it for evil.

I've gone on long enough. I hate these tragedies as not only does it cause such a heart ache with those involved but it also seems to bring out all the nut cases on both sides of the fence.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

[quote=Dr Winston O Boogie jr;891143]

You should re-read my response, then your response regarding 50% (of solutions, not shootings.

So please explain how having armed guards to protect school children would eliminate 50% of the solutions. Do you have a list of proposed solutions so that you can show us which of them will eliminated by wanting armed guards?


I think that I'm broad minded enough to consider that armed guards should be a component of the solution.

[ugotme]

It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Are the shootings the result of bad parenting, coddled children, violent video games, gratuitous violence in movies, removal of God from schools, or just plain crazy people?

Before jumping to a quick answer remember that one answer may not fit all circumstances.


With all due respect. Do you really think "Gun free zones" really means anything to someone intent on doing harm?

I have read many of your posts and although you are obviously an anti-gun person I respect your right to your point of view.

Keep in mind that there are so many gun laws now in effect and that will never - NEVER - stop some deranged fool from causing harm.

I will not pretend to have the answer and I usually refrain from getting involved in gun issues because an anti-gun person will never see the other side of the argument and neither will pro gunners.

I am a pro-gunner and enjoy the shooting sports.

[Carl in Tampa]

If It's A School Week In America, Odds Are There Will Be A School Shooting (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/10/school-shootings-since-newtown_n_5480209.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D486691)

Anyone have any practical suggestions about how to stop these shootings? More education about how to stop marginalizing kids done by other kids? Bullying has always been around but why has it gone to such extremes? Copycat shooters who feel that's the only way to get what they want?

Did anyone read the article in the link of the OP? What inane drivel!

Quote: "Not surprisingly, schools tend to be safer when they are not in session. The longest gap between school shootings appears between mid-June and mid-August of 2013, which falls during summer break, when the majority of students are not enrolled in classes. Other gaps of weeks or longer fall during periods when schools are typically on winter, spring or summer breaks."

This is supposed to be insightful commentary?

There are no shootings when there is no one there? What insight! (Special font for sarcasm needed here.)

-----------

Moving on the question of the OP for practical suggestions for stopping shootings among teenagers. There will always be assaults among teens; some are more deadly than others. In some cases, if guns are available then guns will be used. If they are not available, other weapons will be used.

My high school years were in San Antonio, Texas, where fights between Anglos and Mexicans were not uncommon. In those days the weapon of choice was knives. (For insight see West Side Story and/or Rock Around The Clock.) Yes, I carried a pocket knife. Carrying knives on school grounds was not prohibited. I don't recall anyone getting killed and there were no school shootings.

And where I lived, in the South, guns were very available. Almost family I knew had a rifle behind the kitchen door and a pistol in a dresser drawer. For some reason, even the most violent of the teenagers did not choose to resort to firearms.

Our culture has changed. Resorting to firearms is now the first choice of teenagers. Except for the recent mass killing in Santa Barbara where the teen killed three people with a knife and one with his car, you seldom read of mass killings by knife.

The answer to the OP is that there is presently NO PRACTICAL method of preventing school campus assaults by firearm. So, the question becomes how do you minimize the extent of damage done by the gunman who intrudes onto a school campus.

And the answer, hated and derided by many is THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP A BAD MAN WITH A GUN IS INTERVENTION BY A GOOD MAN WITH A GUN.

And, the sooner the good man with a gun arrives at the scene, the fewer victims will fall to the bad man. Many jurisdictions are not only moving toward having armed security guards or police officers on the school campus, but also discretely arming school executives who have proper training and motivation. I believe this is the correct course of action.

Like everyone who posts, this is just my opinion. But it is an informed opinion of someone who has been:

A city police dispatcher
A county jail guard
A Sheriff's Patrol uniformed deputy sheriff
A Sheriff"s Office detective in Organized Crime
A Sheriff's Office Hostage Negotiator
A U.S. Secret Service Special Agent Criminal Investigator
A U.S. Secret Service Special Agent Supervisor
A U.S. Army Military Policeman
A U.S. Army Criminal Investigator
A survivor of several gunfights


.

[Doctommft]

[quote=Doctommft;891624]

So please explain how having armed guards to protect school children would eliminate 50% of the solutions. Do you have a list of proposed solutions so that you can show us which of them will eliminated by wanting armed guards?


I think that I'm broad minded enough to consider that armed guards should be a component of the solution.

Re-read our posts. You are way out there in misunderstanding everything that has been written. Maybe your probable bias has something to do with that.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

[quote=Dr Winston O Boogie jr;891678]

Re-read our posts. You are why out there in misunderstanding everything that has been written. Maybe your probable bias has something to do with that.

OK, here is your post:

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Well here is what you wanted. If a creep knows that a school has a guard with a gun, he/she may think twice unless their goal is death by cop. You have eliminated 50% of proposed solutions to the problem. Very narrow of you.


What I'm trying to understand is how, by wanting armed guards at schools, we eliminate 50% of the proposed solutions to the problem?

I am simply asking what are the solutions that this eliminates? I don't understand that part of your post and have asked twice now that you explain it.

I fully understand that armed guards would not prevent people who want to die in this manner from attempting shootings, but it might prevent those who do not want to die. It may also mitigate the damage done by those whose wish is death by cop. So how is this narrow minded?

Carl in Tampa has made a post that makes the most sense. "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. And the sooner that the good guy arrives, the less damage there will be"

I think that this is a problem that has a lot of complex causes and will require many different actions to combat it. Certainly we need to look at how our children are being raised and what happened psychologically to our society in general. We might consider the effect of violent video games and movies are having on us. There are probably a hundred other things that should be considered and plans implemented to help. But, having armed guards in the schools is an immediate deterrent for many of these criminals and an immediate means of prevention and mitigation in many of these cases. I don't know why some people would be so narrow minded as to want to eliminate that as part of the solution.

Unfortunately, as I have pointed out with some of the links I've posted, some anti-gun groups are using these shootings as a political tool to achieve their goal of completely banning guns in this country. They are making this problem out to be much bigger than it actually is. Until we get people to put aside their biases and agree to do whatever it takes to end the problem, it will continue.

[KayakerNC]

No way to prevent this. :blahblahblah:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/)

[Steve9930]

With all due respect. Do you really think "Gun free zones" really means anything to someone intent on doing harm?

I have read many of your posts and although you are obviously an anti-gun person I respect your right to your point of view.

Keep in mind that there are so many gun laws now in effect and that will never - NEVER - stop some deranged fool from causing harm.

I will not pretend to have the answer and I usually refrain from getting involved in gun issues because an anti-gun person will never see the other side of the argument and neither will pro gunners.

I am a pro-gunner and enjoy the shooting sports.

A gun free zone just indicates there will be no armed resistance. That's what a person with intent to do harm will conclude.

[ugotme]

A gun free zone just indicates there will be no armed resistance. That's what a person with intent to do harm will conclude.

EXACTLY !

And, as usual, the only people who will obey this are the honest citizens. Leaving the crazies to do as they wish with no resistance.

Who the heck thought of that anyway? :shrug:

[buggyone]

EXACTLY !

And, as usual, the only people who will obey this are the honest citizens. Leaving the crazies to do as they wish with no resistance.:blahblahblah:

Who the heck thought of that anyway? :shrug:

Gun free zones do not preclude the presence of an armed security team. It merely means that the general populace cannot bring guns into the building.

Concealed carry in Florida is popular - but there are places you will be arrested if you carry. A prime example is in a bar or bar area of a restaurant. There are signs on the outside door at the Sheriff's stations saying that you - not a police officer- cannot enter with a weapon.

Basically, it seems that so many do not understand what a gun free zone means.

[Steve9930]

Gun free zones do not preclude the presence of an armed security team. It merely means that the general populace cannot bring guns into the building.

Concealed carry in Florida is popular - but there are places you will be arrested if you carry. A prime example is in a bar or bar area of a restaurant. There are signs on the outside door at the Sheriff's stations saying that you - not a police officer- cannot enter with a weapon.

Basically, it seems that so many do not understand what a gun free zone means.

You are correct but most schools have no security. Gun free means there will either be no security or limited sources of a threat to stop you in a public area. I believe most people understand what gun free means. However in some gun free zones its well know that there is no one armed in the area. I believe Georgia now allows you to carry into a bar. There are places that are labelled as gun free which are used by those that don't care and know the law abiding person will be unarmed. Its a hard call as to where to allow and not to allow those with a concealed permit to carry. Even reasonable people fly off the handle occasionally. I do believe that those that have decided to carry a concealed weapon should receive more training then they currently receive. I've always believed that open carry is the real answer to deter an incident. The whole thing about carrying a weapon is to avoid a problem not get into a problem. In Ohio open carry is legal and no permit is required. I agree with the open carry but I do not agree with no permit. If your going to use the presence of a gun to help deter a threat I want to know the person carrying the weapon has had some training. We have to have training to fly a plane or drive a car but I can walk down to the gun shop and purchase a pistol. If I have a CCP I get it immediately, if I don't I get it in three days. No where has anyone asked me if I know how it works or how to handle it.

[janmcn]

You are correct but most schools have no security. Gun free means there will either be no security or limited sources of a threat to stop you in a public area. I believe most people understand what gun free means. However in some gun free zones its well know that there is no one armed in the area. I believe Georgia now allows you to carry into a bar. There are places that are labelled as gun free which are used by those that don't care and know the law abiding person will be unarmed. Its a hard call as to where to allow and not to allow those with a concealed permit to carry. Even reasonable people fly off the handle occasionally. I do believe that those that have decided to carry a concealed weapon should receive more training then they currently receive. I've always believed that open carry is the real answer to deter an incident. The whole thing about carrying a weapon is to avoid a problem not get into a problem. In Ohio open carry is legal and no permit is required. I agree with the open carry but I do not agree with no permit. If your going to use the presence of a gun to help deter a threat I want to know the person carrying the weapon has had some training. We have to have training to fly a plane or drive a car but I can walk down to the gun shop and purchase a pistol. If I have a CCP I get it immediately, if I don't I get it in three days. No where has anyone asked me if I know how it works or how to handle it.


You are correct about Georgia. Georgia passed a "guns anywhere" law recently, which means you can now carry a gun to church, school, bars, the airport, anywhere your heart desires. Hopefully, it won't be long until Florida follows their lead. Is this a great country or what?

[Steve9930]

You are correct about Georgia. Georgia passed a "guns anywhere" law recently, which means you can now carry a gun to church, school, bars, the airport, anywhere your heart desires. Hopefully, it won't be long until Florida follows their lead. Is this a great country or what?

I'm not against such a law but what I fear is there will be no additional training for those who decide they will carry in these areas. Remember when you decide to use a weapon you own the bullet where ever it lands and the consequences after words.

[janmcn]

I'm not against such a law but what I fear is there will be no additional training for those who decide they will carry in these areas. Remember when you decide to use a weapon you own the bullet where ever it lands and the consequences after words.


Most of these shooters don't seem to need any training. They seem to be pretty good shots, like Adam Lanza who killed 26 people in a few minutes including 20 children, the Aurora theater shooter, the latest shooter in Oregon, the one before that in Santa Barbara CA, the one that shot the priest in Phoenix yesterday, the cop killers in Las Vegas, the cop killers in New Brunswick, Canada, and the shooter who killed two cops in Alaska in May.

Oh and also retired police captain Curtis Reeves who shot the young father in Wesley Chapel because he was texting his daughter's babysitter. Or how about Michael Dunn who shot the young black teen-ager because his music was too loud. They were all very good shooters.

The only one that comes to mind that might have needed practice was the man who accidently shot and killed himself while driving in Tennessee last week.

[Steve9930]

Most of these shooters don't seem to need any training. They seem to be pretty good shots, like Adam Lanza who killed 26 people in a few minutes including 20 children, the Aurora theater shooter, the latest shooter in Oregon, the one before that in Santa Barbara CA, the one that shot the priest in Phoenix yesterday, the cop killers in Las Vegas, the cop killers in New Brunswick, Canada, and the shooter who killed two cops in Alaska in May.

Oh and also retired police captain Curtis Reeves who shot the young father in Wesley Chapel because he was texting his daughter's babysitter. Or how about Michael Dunn who shot the young black teen-ager because his music was too loud. They were all very good shooters.

The only one that comes to mind that might have needed practice was the man who accidently shot and killed himself while driving in Tennessee last week.

You missed my point. I agree each of those shooters had learned how to use a weapon. I'm speaking about Joe who just decided he should own a gun and carry it in public. Never owned one, never shot one and now he carries one. I'm not sure who I would need to shoot first Joe who will shoot 20 people because he can't hit the broad side of a barn or the real person causing the problem.

[Duke-SRT]

I think the NRA is correct, the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. We protect our money in banks with armed guards, we protect our VIP's with armed guards, why don't we protect our most cherished commodity, our children with the same. I am sure that there are teachers willing to be trained in the safe use of weapons, I say train them and let them carry them in schools. After all if they are teaching our children I would hope they are mentally compotent. Additionally there are new handguns being developed that can only me fired by a person with a bracelet coded to that gun, this would preclude any student that somehow got a hold of that gun from using it. Unfortunatley I don't see any other answer, You cannot remove all guns from the general public at this point, and I would not like to see that happen. To conquer a country first you must disarm its citizens.

[Steve9930]

I think the NRA is correct, the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. We protect our money in banks with armed guards, we protect our VIP's with armed guards, why don't we protect our most cherished commodity, our children with the same. I am sure that there are teachers willing to be trained in the safe use of weapons, I say train them and let them carry them in schools. After all if they are teaching our children I would hope they are mentally compotent. Additionally there are new handguns being developed that can only me fired by a person with a bracelet coded to that gun, this would preclude any student that somehow got a hold of that gun from using it. Unfortunatley I don't see any other answer, You cannot remove all guns from the general public at this point, and I would not like to see that happen. To conquer a country first you must disarm its citizens.

I have to agree with you that at this point this needs to be the answer. Secure it first and then lets talk about fixing the problem. It is a shame that this needs to be done. We need to have a serious conversation about our continuing slide to more and more violence. At this rate we will be back to the Wild West sooner then you think. There are also many people that have firearms training already and with a little more training could be put into these locations on a temporary assignment until we figure it out. Just the presence of these individuals just may stop another incident in a school. Not the final answer but at least a start.

[janmcn]

I think the NRA is correct, the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. We protect our money in banks with armed guards, we protect our VIP's with armed guards, why don't we protect our most cherished commodity, our children with the same. I am sure that there are teachers willing to be trained in the safe use of weapons, I say train them and let them carry them in schools. After all if they are teaching our children I would hope they are mentally compotent. Additionally there are new handguns being developed that can only me fired by a person with a bracelet coded to that gun, this would preclude any student that somehow got a hold of that gun from using it. Unfortunatley I don't see any other answer, You cannot remove all guns from the general public at this point, and I would not like to see that happen. To conquer a country first you must disarm its citizens.


Weren't the eight police officers gunned down in the past two months 'good guys with guns'? Why would the two policemen having lunch at Cici's pizza in Las Vegas last week-end, or the three police officers in New Brunswick Canada, or the two state troopers killed in the hinterlands of Alaska not able to protect themselves, but a school teacher with a classroom full of students would be able to shoot to kill and protect those kids?

[Doctommft]

[quote=Doctommft;891624]

So please explain how having armed guards to protect school children would eliminate 50% of the solutions. Do you have a list of proposed solutions so that you can show us which of them will eliminated by wanting armed guards?


I think that I'm broad minded enough to consider that armed guards should be a component of the solution.

I give up. Anyone who has a grade school reading level would understand. Dr. must be an honorary degree.

[Carl in Tampa]

I give up. Anyone who has a grade school reading level would understand. Dr. must be an honorary degree.

I note that there has been some discussion between you and Dr. Boogie regarding the meaning of your post, which if I understand correctly was, "Well here is what you wanted. If a creep knows that a school has a guard with a gun, he/she may think twice unless their goal is death by cop. You have eliminated 50% of proposed solutions to the problem. Very narrow of you."

Not to be taking sides, but I cannot parse your sentence. I simply don't understand what you are saying. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the English language and I simply don't get it.

1. What are the proposed solutions to the problem?

2. Which 50% have been eliminated and how were they eliminated by having armed guards?

3. What is "narrow" about what position?

Were you being sarcastic? If so, it still doesn't seem to make sense.

I'm not being confrontational or antagonistic, I just don't get it.

.

[Carl in Tampa]

Weren't the eight police officers gunned down in the past two months 'good guys with guns'? Why would the two policemen having lunch at Cici's pizza in Las Vegas last week-end, or the three police officers in New Brunswick Canada, or the two state troopers killed in the hinterlands of Alaska not able to protect themselves, but a school teacher with a classroom full of students would be able to shoot to kill and protect those kids?

Good men with guns sometimes get killed by bad men with guns. That is a sad fact of life. However, it is also a fact that the killers are ultimately brought to justice by other good men with guns.

That has no bearing on the fact that if a gunman steps into a classroom with the intent to shoot children, his likelihood of success is much greater if the teacher is unarmed than would be the case if the teacher were armed.

That, too, is a fact.

.

[karostay]

Don't forget
Car Crashes Kill 40,000 in U.S. Every Year
Don't let your children ride to school

[ugotme]

Gun free zones do not preclude the presence of an armed security team. It merely means that the general populace cannot bring guns into the building.

Concealed carry in Florida is popular - but there are places you will be arrested if you carry. A prime example is in a bar or bar area of a restaurant. There are signs on the outside door at the Sheriff's stations saying that you - not a police officer- cannot enter with a weapon.

Basically, it seems that so many do not understand what a gun free zone means.


And I will ask again Do you REALLY think a criminal cares about a gun free zone???? C'mon!

I, and all law abiding citizens, will not bring a gun there but the bad guy could care less about the sign!

[buggyone]

And I will ask again Do you REALLY think a criminal cares about a gun free zone???? C'mon!

I, and all law abiding citizens, will not bring a gun there but the bad guy could care less about the sign!

What cannot you understand that there CAN be armed security personnel in a gun free zone? Schools in urban settings should have them. Many already do!

Where specifically would you want to carry your gun that is now designated as gun free?

[DaleMN]

Facts.....opinions.....tomatoes......tomottoes...: doh:

[Taltarzac725]

Don't forget
Car Crashes Kill 40,000 in U.S. Every Year
Don't let your children ride to school

And, remember that they can be used as weapons.

Stephen King's latest horror novel features a killer who at least starts with a car. TOP SHELF: 'Mr. Mercedes' - The Monitor: Valley Life (http://www.themonitor.com/life/valley_life/top-shelf-mr-mercedes/article_9a1fbd7e-f273-11e3-9ed5-0017a43b2370.html)

I am for any common sense solutions that will stop shootings. Someone very well trained with a pistol and who has one and will use it in these kind of situations is one approach. You probably want someone though that would be able to handle the taking of life. That probably would not apply to most teachers. I would assume that most cops who have had to use their weapons to kill have problems handling this.

[KayakerNC]

Originally Posted by janmcn View Post
Weren't the eight police officers gunned down in the past two months 'good guys with guns'? Why would the two policemen having lunch at Cici's pizza in Las Vegas last week-end, or the three police officers in New Brunswick Canada, or the two state troopers killed in the hinterlands of Alaska not able to protect themselves, but a school teacher with a classroom full of students would be able to shoot to kill and protect those kids?

Good men with guns sometimes get killed by bad men with guns. That is a sad fact of life. However, it is also a fact that the killers are ultimately brought to justice by other good men with guns.
.

Actually, these killers were brought to justice by bad guys with guns, murder/suicide. :mornincoffee:

[Steve9930]

This debate could go on forever. But in the mean time secure the schools. If that means more law enforcement in the schools then lets get it done. For those teachers who have come forward and indicated they would carry a weapon to help secure the school, train them and make sure they are mentally capable to handle that job. For those that would like to allow more people to carry weapons in all areas that's fine but before that happens we need to setup a training program and a philological evaluation program to make sure they are capable. Make sure every school has a plan to keep the children safe. Whether that be a lock down plan, armed security, medal detectors, or a combination of all of the above. Will this stop the madness, absolutely not but it will help to tip the odds in the favor of the children. Then we need to have a real serious conversation about why we have these people committing these crimes. Not until we start to address this mental and social problem will anything really change. By increasing security all we are doing is improving the lock on the door so to speak. To fix the problem we have to fix the person.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by janmcn
Weren't the eight police officers gunned down in the past two months 'good guys with guns'? Why would the two policemen having lunch at Cici's pizza in Las Vegas last week-end, or the three police officers in New Brunswick Canada, or the two state troopers killed in the hinterlands of Alaska not able to protect themselves, but a school teacher with a classroom full of students would be able to shoot to kill and protect those kids?


Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa
Good men with guns sometimes get killed by bad men with guns. That is a sad fact of life. However, it is also a fact that the killers are ultimately brought to justice by other good men with guns.
.


Actually, these killers were brought to justice by bad guys with guns, murder/suicide. :mornincoffee:

I can't even rebut your generalized statement about "these killers" until you give specific references that can be researched on the Internet, but I dispute your assertion.

Are you claiming that all of the police officer killings alluded to above were simple cases of the killers walking up and shooting the officers and then turning their guns on themselves? I certainly doubt that.

Killers who commit suicide generally do so when confronted by police or other armed personnel prepared to arrest or shoot them. In that context they are still brought to justice (using the term I used in my original statement) by the "intervention" of armed good men.

I stand by my statement THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP A BAD MAN WITH A GUN IS INTERVENTION BY A GOOD MAN WITH A GUN.

:police:

[KayakerNC]

Originally Posted by janmcn
Weren't the eight police officers gunned down in the past two months 'good guys with guns'? Why would the two policemen having lunch at Cici's pizza in Las Vegas last week-end, or the three police officers in New Brunswick Canada, or the two state troopers killed in the hinterlands of Alaska not able to protect themselves, but a school teacher with a classroom full of students would be able to shoot to kill and protect those kids?


Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa
Good men with guns sometimes get killed by bad men with guns. That is a sad fact of life. However, it is also a fact that the killers are ultimately brought to justice by other good men with guns.
.



I can't even rebut your generalized statement about "these killers" until you give specific references that can be researched on the Internet, but I dispute your assertion.

Are you claiming that all of the police officer killings alluded to above were simple cases of the killers walking up and shooting the officers and then turning their guns on themselves? I certainly doubt that.

Killers who commit suicide generally do so when confronted by police or other armed personnel prepared to arrest or shoot them. In that context they are still brought to justice (using the term I used in my original statement) by the "intervention" of armed good men.

I stand by my statement THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP A BAD MAN WITH A GUN IS INTERVENTION BY A GOOD MAN WITH A GUN.

:police:

Shooting In Las Vegas Leaves 5 Dead : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2014/06/08/320177812/shooting-in-las-vegas-leaves-5-dead)

[sunglow]

These kind of shootings are not happening in Europe or Canada where they have gun control!

[billethkid]

These kind of shootings are not happening in Europe or Canada where they have gun control!
iT IS NOT THE GUN CONTROL in Europe or Canada. It is the fact there is more discipline and much, MUCH less permissiveness (for everything). They are not afraid to do what needs to be done without concern for every single special interest or religious or political feel gooder.

Take a look at the gun and killing statistics in Los Angeles, Chicago, NYC and Washington, DC........war zones of killing all.....and they have the strictest gun control laws in the country. So why is it they have such a big problem of daily killings????????

It is the lack of action, don't hurt ANYBODY'S feelings, lack of discipline, too permissive society. That is where to start.

[NoMoSno]

These kind of shootings are not happening in Europe or Canada where they have gun control!

A quick google search turned up these:

Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings)

Moncton shootings: The challenge of detaining someone who poses a risk - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/moncton-shootings-the-challenge-of-detaining-someone-who-poses-a-risk-1.2670049)

There were many more listed.

[Carl in Tampa]

Shooting In Las Vegas Leaves 5 Dead : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2014/06/08/320177812/shooting-in-las-vegas-leaves-5-dead)

Well, no. If this is your proof that police intervention was not what brought this murderous attack to an end, you are mistaken.

You must have missed the follow up news conference where the Las Vegas Police spokesman announced that autopsy results showed that the male assailant was in fact killed by a police rifle bullet, not by a bullet from the female assailant. The female was also struck by police fire.

Police, not wife, killed Las Vegas cop slayer (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/11/las-vegas-police-shot-killings-suspect/10348831/)

Also note that the killers shot the police officers and then fled. They did not intend to be apprehended or participate in a suicide pact. They fled to the Walmart store where the male was killed by police fire. The woman, after being wounded by police killed herself, which (as I have said previously) is not uncommon when the bad person with a gun is confronted by the good person with a gun.

The high incidence of assailants shooting themselves when they encounter armed opposition is a major argument for having police officers or other armed individuals constantly present on school campuses, rather than having to wait for a police response after the shooting has started.

:police::police::police:

[Carl in Tampa]

These kind of shootings are not happening in Europe or Canada where they have gun control!

The United States has gun control. We have hundreds and hundreds of gun regulations regarding the acquisition, storage, utilization and disposition of firearms. We have gun regulations at both the federal level and at the state level. We have laws that regulate possession and display of firearms.

What we also have is a Constitutional Right to "keep and bear arms." Our founding fathers felt this was a fundamental right of a free people.

We also have criminals who violate our gun control laws. If we had an outright ban on possession of guns, the criminals would violate that law too.

Interestingly, the USA cities with some of the most stringent "gun control" laws are the cities with the highest violent crime rate using guns.

.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

These kind of shootings are not happening in Europe or Canada where they have gun control!

Well, yes they are. See the links posted by several members here. And there are not as many as the anti rights crowd would like us to believe. Check out the threads that I posted. They use all kinds of false and misleading information to make us believe that the problem is much bigger than it is.

Additionally, we have more gun control laws in this country than at any time in our history. In fact you could draw a correlation that shows that the more gun control we have, the more gun violence we have. In the 1940s and 50s guns were much more readily available and less regulated but we didn't have these kinds of shootings. As we increase control of guns and made them less available, incidents increased.

As has been pointed out laws don't prevent crimes, they only define crimes. A crime occurs when someone breaks a law.

[gpirate]

If It's A School Week In America, Odds Are There Will Be A School Shooting (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/10/school-shootings-since-newtown_n_5480209.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D486691)

Anyone have any practical suggestions about how to stop these shootings? More education about how to stop marginalizing kids done by other kids? Bullying has always been around but why has it gone to such extremes? Copycat shooters who feel that's the only way to get what they want?

Not true. More like 16 shooting but I agree 16 is too many. Better parenting as most of us had would eliminate most of the shootings. Too many broken homes or never a father around is a lot of the cause.

[buggyone]

Wouldn't a retired police captain be thought of as a good guy with a gun?

He had extensive training in all aspects of gun handling.

Still, this good guy with a gun shoots and kills an unarmed man in a movie theater for texting during a preview.

[Serenoa]

Good grief, how many times have we seen "THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP A BAD MAN WITH A GUN IS INTERVENTION BY A GOOD MAN WITH A GUN." in this thread?

Not too hard to tell who the NRA Kool-Aid drinkers are.

The problem in our country today is TOO MANY GUNS, and you can thank the hysteria driving NRA for that. To think that they're merely defending your 2nd amendment rights is laughable. What respectable organization has a crackpot like Ted Nugent on it's board of directors?

[senior citizen]

It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Are the shootings the result of bad parenting, coddled children, violent video games, gratuitous violence in movies, removal of God from schools, or just plain crazy people?

Before jumping to a quick answer remember that one answer may not fit all circumstances.


Your third paragraph says it all.......

I, myself, tend to think it is the result of the total violence in t.v. shows, movies, etc.............we ourselves, as formed adults who were raised in the "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" era when saluting the flag and morning prayer was still allowed in the schools......where in church kids were taught "Thou Shalt Not Kill" as part of the Ten Commandments........and somehow, just somehow, in our innocence....we seemed to just know "right from wrong" without all the counseling and such that they all have to receive today. We just knew.

Every time we watch "The Following" about the cult kids and their outrageous violence, at the behest of "Joe"........even though Kevin Bacon has always been a favorite actor of mine........I think the networks can do better. Many of these children who are shooting it up at their high schools have their own t.v.'s in their rooms.........they have been saturated in violent shows and movies at the cinemas since they were old enough to go with their friends..........

A blast from the past, but I was just reminding my husband yesterday that when we were "kids" our father's controlled the t.v. viewing (one t.v. in the home, in the living room; Dad chose the channels.....no remotes in those days).

Bonanza * the evening news * Victory at Sea * Ed Sullivan Show * etc.
We did get to watch Superman on Saturdays and a few other like that.........but I don't remember the level of violence that is on t.v. nowadays......the gory violence, torture, murder........etc.


Guns can be taught respectfully and kept under lock and key by responsible parents. Especially in the "hunting states".

With all of the kids put on psychotropic drugs nowadays for every little bit of anxiety.......or A.D.H.D., especially in the lower grades, perhaps they are not thinking rationally? Pharmaceutical drugs can change one's thought process and even actions.......just look at the Ambien Defense.....for driving while asleep.

We've become a nation of drugged out people.....and students.
Not all, but some..........

Anyway, you are correct.......it is a good topic for discussion.

What is so sad, is that it's the good kids who are being killed by one crazy nut .......in each of these school incidents.

How can we protect the innocents? Many of our schools do NOT have metal detectors........such as the most recent case; where they do not check for guns.

P.S. I KNOW THIS WILL NOT BE A POPULAR COMMENT, BUT IT IS A TRUTHFUL OBSERVATION ON MY PART.
I, for one, was fortunate to be able to stay at home and raise both of our children from the first pregnancy until they went off to college...........so they had daily guidance with love from both parents as my husband also "worked at home" Our home was the place all of their friends liked to come and we were happy to accommodate them.......

So many kids , through no fault of their own, nor of their parents who have to work, were left in daycare where they do tend to pick up bad habits...........

Raising of the children, including sex education, has been left to the schools..........
As another poster mentioned.........many families are now unstable, not all together, certainly not traditional.

Traditional worked for us........and thankfully, to watch ours raise their own........with kindness, caring, love and compassion plus the thirst for knowledge, reading, learning, etc..........is heart warming. I'll never regret the years I spent raising my children to be good people ; good citizens; and most of all have the love within to be loving to their own brood...........the next generation. I never had to raise my voice.........if parents would teach by example from the earliest years.........children become what they see in the HOME. If they live with violence, anger, hurtfulness, etc. then that's what they sometimes become..............unless they are astute enough to want to be different than their parents.

[Monkei]

The shooting in Vegas had 3 good people with guns. Didn't stop the mentally challenged bad people with guns. It's time.

[Taltarzac725]

The shooting in Vegas had 3 good people with guns. Didn't stop the mentally challenged bad people with guns. It's time.

They did not strike me as mentally imbalanced, just perhaps evil in their outlook. http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/Temple-Don-t-be-so-quick-to-blame-mental-illness-5551136.php

According to the American Psychiatric Association, most violent crime is not committed by the mentally ill. Yet those 25 percent of Americans are all implicated when we point the finger squarely at mental illness. Never mind the fact that over 99 percent of Americans with mental illness pose no danger to society. Never mind the fact that many shooters have almost no history of mental health problems. The Northern Illinois University shooter, for example, had a fairly normal life and was respected by students and faculty.

Being quick to say mental illness is the sole cause of mass shootings is not accurate, and the effects of doing so are potentially harmful to society. In blaming mental illness, we further its negative stigma, making people less likely to seek needed help for fear of being perceived as "crazy" or unstable. This will result in more, not fewer, problems.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Not true. More like 16 shooting but I agree 16 is too many. Better parenting as most of us had would eliminate most of the shootings. Too many broken homes or never a father around is a lot of the cause.

People need to take responsibility for raising their kids properly. In many cases in this country parenting skills are severely lacking. Kids are almost raising themselves.

[Taltarzac725]

Not true. More like 16 shooting but I agree 16 is too many. Better parenting as most of us had would eliminate most of the shootings. Too many broken homes or never a father around is a lot of the cause.

And how do you come to 16?

[Steve9930]

Reading these post I can say one thing for sure when people use inflammatory statements nothing ever gets accomplished. Kool-aid drinkers, nut cases, Paranoia, upper case statements, etc, will never start a positive conversation. Also its hard to take some of our anti-gun advocates seriously when very wealthy people talk about removing weapons from society when they live their lives with 24 hour security by men carrying guns. If I could afford 24 hour armed security I would not own a weapon either.

[billethkid]

People need to take responsibility for raising their kids properly. In many cases in this country parenting skills are severely lacking. Kids are almost raising themselves.

And the permissive nature of our anything goes society with no discipline or enforcement are the perfect breeding elements.

As was stated at a law enforcement seminar I attended hosted by the local police (not here)....the youth have no fear of the police or the law. And if they happen to be wealthy there is nothing they cannot get away with!!

[Duke-SRT]

The shooting in Vegas had 3 good people with guns. Didn't stop the mentally challenged bad people with guns. It's time.

The newspapaer article about this shooting stated the police officers were having lunch when the sooter approached them pulled out his gun and shot the first officer behind the head then shot the second officer in the neck. No matter how good you are with a gun if a person comes up to you and starts shooting there is nothing you can do to stop them. In the end these "bad guys" were taken out by other police officers "the good guys".

[Taltarzac725]

Not true. More like 16 shooting but I agree 16 is too many. Better parenting as most of us had would eliminate most of the shootings. Too many broken homes or never a father around is a lot of the cause.

I see that this is a CNN article that saws 16 Newtown School like shootings. Let's hope there are 0 of these in the future. http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/11/us/school-shootings-cnn-number/

This seems like the equivalent of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It depends on how you define "angels".

[Monkei]

The newspapaer article about this shooting stated the police officers were having lunch when the sooter approached them pulled out his gun and shot the first officer behind the head then shot the second officer in the neck. No matter how good you are with a gun if a person comes up to you and starts shooting there is nothing you can do to stop them. In the end these "bad guys" were taken out by other police officers "the good guys".

Yes I think it really makes my case though. These were professional LE officers and even they were caught off guard and that is what usually happens. Now enter these nuts in Texas carrying guns into restaurants etc. it's a scenario which I think most of us can see will eventually cause good guys shooting good guys with guns.

I don't know the answers but there has to be some give and take here by the NRA. I would think it would be in their interest and their members to work together to help these issues. Right now all they are doing is scaring gun owners to drum up sales for gun manufacturers.

[Taltarzac725]

Yes I think it really makes my case though. These were professional LE officers and even they were caught off guard and that is what usually happens. Now enter these nuts in Texas carrying guns into restaurants etc. it's a scenario which I think most of us can see will eventually cause good guys shooting good guys with guns.

I don't know the answers but there has to be some give and take here by the NRA. I would think it would be in their interest and their members to work together to help these issues. Right now all they are doing is scaring gun owners to drum up sales for gun manufacturers.

It does not seem like common sense enters some of the leadership of the NRA. I do not think you need a bazooka for instance unless you expect to fight tanks. The same kind of reasoning should apply to weapons that were designed for the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Carl in Tampa]

Good grief, how many times have we seen "THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP A BAD MAN WITH A GUN IS INTERVENTION BY A GOOD MAN WITH A GUN." in this thread?

Not too hard to tell who the NRA Kool-Aid drinkers are.

The problem in our country today is TOO MANY GUNS, and you can thank the hysteria driving NRA for that. To think that they're merely defending your 2nd amendment rights is laughable. What respectable organization has a crackpot like Ted Nugent on it's board of directors?

I'm quoting your post so you can see the truth again.

What is it that you find so offensive about the truth?

How do you propose to stop an "in progress" killing spree by a bad man with a gun?

Your answer is........................

.

[Chi-Town]

Ted Nugent, the Motor City Madman, is on the Board of Directors of the National Rifle Association? Wow, that
says it all. I guess they'll have to remove his guitar from his cold dead hands.

[buggyone]

Once more I say, "Wouldn't a retired police captain be thought of as a good guy with a gun?

He had extensive training in all aspects of gun handling.

Still, this good guy with a gun shoots and kills an unarmed man in a movie theater for texting during a preview."

[wendyquat]

Why can't you understand that taking away guns from "good" guys would only leave them defenseless against "bad" guys? Bad guys do not care about laws!

[buggyone]

Why can't you understand that taking away guns from "good" guys would only leave them defenseless against "bad" guys? Bad guys do not care about laws!

No one is advovating taking your gun away. Nothing wrong with an armed and trained security team in a school.

There is a lot wrong with a retired police captain killing an unarmed man who tossed popcorn at him during an arguement in a movie theater.

Just think about it. If a retired, well trained police captain gets out of control over texting - what would the response be for an armed, untrained Joe Schmoe?

Draw your own conclusions. However, no one is advocating taking away your gun.

[Taltarzac725]

No one is advovating taking your gun away. Nothing wrong with an armed and trained security team in a school.

There is a lot wrong with a retired police captain killing an unarmed man who tossed popcorn at him during an arguement in a movie theater.

Just think about it. If a retired, well trained police captain gets out of control over texting - what would the response be for an armed, untrained Joe Schmoe?

Draw your own conclusions. However, no one is advocating taking away your gun.

Road rage is another example of this. And a car is a very dangerous weapon. I remember a woman in Reno in 1980 mowing down a number of people with her car. Not sure why she did it but probably she was mentally ill. http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/female_mass_murderer/5.html


A lot of probably normal people take on another personality when driving a crowd and put under a lot of stress. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922361/

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Let me say a few things here. First of all, the story in the link in the original post is full of inaccuracies. It is meant to get people all fired up about gun deaths. They include, in their statistics things like a 90 year old retired school teacher with a fatal disease committing suicide with a gun as a school shooting. They have search far and wide for gun deaths remotely related to someone at or near a school in order to boost their numbers in order to start this kind of debate.

The second thing is that gun death rates are at close to an all time low in this country today. These same anti gun activists are trying to create a problem where there is none.

There are approximately 32,000 gun deaths in this country each year. Sixty per cent 60% of those are suicides. About 3% are accidents. That leaves about 11,000 gun deaths out of a population of 330,000,000. That's approximately .00003% of our population getting shot and killed each year.

Now pay attention to this. about 80% of those 11,000 gun deaths are gang related. They are gang members killing each other. Does anyone think that stricter gun laws are going to prevent gang members from killing each other?

That leaves us with about 2,200 gun deaths per year out of a population of 330,000,000.

Now these 2200 incidents are certainly regrettable and the school shootings that the press sensationalizes are truly tragic. But, as you can see, the problem is fairly small and the answer is not to take away the rights of millions of law abiding citizens.

[senior citizen]

From a totally different perspective....that of an emergency room physician......who sees the physical damage done by gun violence first hand......guns which have found their way into the wrong hands.

http://www.sacramentotoday.net/news/templates/community.asp?articleid=1610 (http://www.sacramentotoday.net/news/templates/community.asp?articleid=1610)

HBO Documentary features U.C. Davis Doctor

Please take the time to read this, as seen from the experienced emergency room doctor who cares for those injured by gun violence, who just happens to be a family member of our son.

We recall watching the documentary awhile back....and remember being very proud of him. He has devoted his life to this.....

""HBO documentary notes that there are an estimated 250 million guns in the United States today, and over the past dozen years guns purchased both legally and illegally have found their way into the wrong hands, resulting in a string of deadly shootings around the nation. ""

""I invited the documentary crew to our medical center because its crucial that people better understand the level of gun violence that emergency and trauma teams around the country deal with week in and week out, said Wintemute, who has often used his free time to go undercover at gun shows and investigate how illegal gun sales are made. My immediate goal is always focused on saving lives in our emergency room. But my larger focus has been on identifying and reducing the very causes of gun violence that injure or kill the people my colleagues and I see all too often. ""

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

From a totally different perspective....that of an emergency room physician......who sees the physical damage done by gun violence first hand......guns which have found their way into the wrong hands.

http://www.sacramentotoday.net/news/templates/community.asp?articleid=1610 (http://www.sacramentotoday.net/news/templates/community.asp?articleid=1610)

HBO Documentary features U.C. Davis Doctor

Please take the time to read this, as seen from the experienced emergency room doctor who cares for those injured by gun violence, who just happens to be a family member of our son.

We recall watching the documentary awhile back....and remember being very proud of him. He has devoted his life to this.....

""HBO documentary notes that there are an estimated 250 million guns in the United States today, and over the past dozen years guns purchased both legally and illegally have found their way into the wrong hands, resulting in a string of deadly shootings around the nation. ""

""I invited the documentary crew to our medical center because its crucial that people better understand the level of gun violence that emergency and trauma teams around the country deal with week in and week out, said Wintemute, who has often used his free time to go undercover at gun shows and investigate how illegal gun sales are made. My immediate goal is always focused on saving lives in our emergency room. But my larger focus has been on identifying and reducing the very causes of gun violence that injure or kill the people my colleagues and I see all too often. ""

This does nothing to refute the statistics that I posted. Yes, each and every gunshot incident is horrible, but there are just not as many as anti gun activists would like us to believe. In fact in this story, it is noted that this emergency center treats 4,750 trauma cases each year. It wants us to think that they are all gunshot cases. They are not. This plays on our emotions rather than logic by showing the victims of gunshots and the people who have the horrible job of caring for them.

Intellectually or logically, you would identify and quantify the problem and then seek reasonable solutions.

If they showed enough video of people who had been seriously injured in automobile accidents, we'd be talking about banning cars and having psychological screening before allowing people to get a drivers license. Maybe raising the legal age for driving. Make cars more difficult to get. But that would be appealing to out emotions as opposed to logic.

Like I said, deaths from gun shot wounds is at an all time low or very close to an all time low.

[senior citizen]

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/politics-and-law/meet-doctor-gave-1-million-money-keep-gun-research-going-80212/ (http://www.psmag.com/navigation/politics-and-law/meet-doctor-gave-1-million-money-keep-gun-research-going-80212/)


It's really a crusade for him. He's traveled all over the country to gather his statistics, not just the ones from his own emergency room trauma center.


Please read this and keep scrolling down........

[Steve9930]

This does nothing to refute the statistics that I posted. Yes, each and every gunshot incident is horrible, but there are just not as many as anti gun activists would like us to believe. In fact in this story, it is noted that this emergency center treats 4,750 trauma cases each year. It wants us to think that they are all gunshot cases. They are not. This plays on our emotions rather than logic by showing the victims of gunshots and the people who have the horrible job of caring for them.

Intellectually or logically, you would identify and quantify the problem and then seek reasonable solutions.

If they showed enough video of people who had been seriously injured in automobile accidents, we'd be talking about banning cars and having psychological screening before allowing people to get a drivers license. Maybe raising the legal age for driving. Make cars more difficult to get. But that would be appealing to out emotions as opposed to logic.

Like I said, deaths from gun shot wounds is at an all time low or very close to an all time low.

I'm going to side with you on this one. From a statistical point of view the problem is being over blown. If you just look at unnecessary deaths then auto accidents I'm sure lead the pack. They are just as horrific as any shooting. Because a small group of people see guns as unnecessary they want them either severely curtailed or eliminated. Guns are no more then a tool plain and simple. Some people are just prone to violence whether through mental illness, anger, or gang related. Its just a fact of life. Remove one tool and they will use another. There are so many guns in society you will waste a lot of time and effort and accomplish nothing to solve a social violence problem.

When people zero in on a singular item and ignore the real problem I'm very suspicious of their motive. If the argument comes from Washington its pure political in nature. If it comes form the public it makes me wonder if it originates out of lack of understanding or a blind allegiance to a line of thinking. If you have to try and change my mind by showing me a bunch of gory pictures tells me your argument is pretty weak. I could show you some pretty shocking pictures of homicides committed with a baseball bat if I wanted to regulate baseball bats. The bottom line people kill people, have since the beginning of time.

People also have a tendency when driven by a cause to be over zealous to push their point. This is what I see now from the anti-gun folks and the pro-gun folks. All weapons can be dangerous when human negligence is involved. Just like any other tool. I personally support more education for those that own firearms. The NRA has many programs that do just that, promote gun safety. So the only way to see if a real problem exists is to do the math. The math does not show a big problem nationwide. This fact is conveniently either left out of the conversation or the numbers are artificially adjusted to prove a point. I also put little faith in a Politian that promotes gun regulation while having 24 hour armed security around them. Their argument is pretty hypocritical . Even some of the strongest anti-gun Politian's own their own firearms or conceal carry. So every word they spout is nothing but political theater. I'd list the names but it would take too long.

One of the last things I will say is good luck on regulations to remove guns from society, you never will accomplish this task. Current technology or in the very near future you will be able to use a 3D printer to print a weapon at will in your living room. Technology is increasingly advancing far faster then any laws.

[DaleMN]

It can't be glossed over. Kids are dying.

[Tennisnut]

If there are that many guns out there and nothing we can do about it, can someone advise me on what is the biggest baddest gun I should buy?

[Steve9930]

It can't be glossed over. Kids are dying.

There are more children that die every day around the world then have been killed in US shootings in the last 20 years.

[Carl in Tampa]

It can't be glossed over. Kids are dying.

Yep......................in home swimming pools, traffic crashes, accidental poisoning, schoolyard accidents, abusive parents, and from a multitude of other causes.

Now, I'm going to fix the gun problem for you. At 8PM I'm going to wave a magic wand and there won't be a single firearm in the United States that isn't in the hands of either the military or the police.

Problem solved. Right?

Wrong. By 9PM the drug cartels in Mexico will have the word that there is an incredible demand for guns in the USA. They will stop smuggling drugs and will switch to smuggling guns. If we can't keep one out it is only logical that we can't keep the other out. Just as we couldn't keep alcohol out during Prohibition.

All of the illegal aliens who are entering the country daily will bring firearms with them as a form of payment for being smuggled in.

By 10PM a thug named Butch will be following a police officer across a mall parking lot towards the officer's police car. He will rush up and strike the officer in the head with an iron pipe, knocking him unconscious.

Butch will take the officer's gunbelt containing his gun, ammunition, Taser, pepper spray, handcuffs and radio. He will also take the keys to the police car so that he can get the AR-15 rifle and ammunition from the trunk of the car.

This will be happening all over the nation as thugs re-arm themselves after my magic wand took their guns.

Smugglers, who are already bold at our borders and often engage our police, will overwhelm the border to bring in and sell their incredibly valuable merchandise.............guns. Border bloodshed will be commonplace.

We will then be at the point in time that has been forseen on millions of bumper stickers over the period of many decades:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Welcome to reality.

:police:

[Carl in Tampa]

If there are that many guns out there and nothing we can do about it, can someone advise me on what is the biggest baddest gun I should buy?

There's an old sports saying that says, "It isn't the size of the dog in the fight that counts; it's the size of the fight in the dog."

A homicide detective friend of mine once observed that cheap little .25 caliber automatics must be the most dangerous gun in the world, since most of the homicides he investigated involved this kind of gun.

He was joking, of course.

You don't seek the biggest, baddest gun you can find. The odds are you could not fire it accurately. You seek the firearm that has good ballistics, and which you can fire accurately.

As "Dirty Harry" said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

:police:

(Yeah, yeah, I know you were joking.)

[buggyone]

Yep......................in home swimming pools, traffic crashes, accidental poisoning, schoolyard accidents, abusive parents, and from a multitude of other causes.

Now, I'm going to fix the gun problem for you. At 8PM I'm going to wave a magic wand and there won't be a single firearm in the United States that isn't in the hands of either the military or the police.

Problem solved. Right?

Wrong. By 9PM the drug cartels in Mexico will have the word that there is an incredible demand for guns in the USA. They will stop smuggling drugs and will switch to smuggling guns. If we can't keep one out it is only logical that we can't keep the other out. Just as we couldn't keep alcohol out during Prohibition.

All of the illegal aliens who are entering the country daily will bring firearms with them as a form of payment for being smuggled in.

By 10PM a thug named Butch will be following a police officer across a mall parking lot towards the officer's police car. He will rush up and strike the officer in the head with an iron pipe, knocking him unconscious.

Butch will take the officer's gunbelt containing his gun, ammunition, Taser, pepper spray, handcuffs and radio. He will also take the keys to the police car so that he can get the AR-15 rifle and ammunition from the trunk of the car.

This will be happening all over the nation as thugs re-arm themselves after my magic wand took their guns.

Smugglers, who are already bold at our borders and often engage our police, will overwhelm the border to bring in and sell their incredibly valuable merchandise.............guns. Border bloodshed will be commonplace.

We will then be at the point in time that has been forseen on millions of bumper stickers over the period of many decades:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Welcome to reality.

:police:

chilout

[ugotme]

Yep......................in home swimming pools, traffic crashes, accidental poisoning, schoolyard accidents, abusive parents, and from a multitude of other causes.

Now, I'm going to fix the gun problem for you. At 8PM I'm going to wave a magic wand and there won't be a single firearm in the United States that isn't in the hands of either the military or the police.

Problem solved. Right?

Wrong. By 9PM the drug cartels in Mexico will have the word that there is an incredible demand for guns in the USA. They will stop smuggling drugs and will switch to smuggling guns. If we can't keep one out it is only logical that we can't keep the other out. Just as we couldn't keep alcohol out during Prohibition.

All of the illegal aliens who are entering the country daily will bring firearms with them as a form of payment for being smuggled in.

By 10PM a thug named Butch will be following a police officer across a mall parking lot towards the officer's police car. He will rush up and strike the officer in the head with an iron pipe, knocking him unconscious.

Butch will take the officer's gunbelt containing his gun, ammunition, Taser, pepper spray, handcuffs and radio. He will also take the keys to the police car so that he can get the AR-15 rifle and ammunition from the trunk of the car.

This will be happening all over the nation as thugs re-arm themselves after my magic wand took their guns.

Smugglers, who are already bold at our borders and often engage our police, will overwhelm the border to bring in and sell their incredibly valuable merchandise.............guns. Border bloodshed will be commonplace.

We will then be at the point in time that has been forseen on millions of bumper stickers over the period of many decades:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Welcome to reality.

:police:


:BigApplause:

Well said and truer words were never spoken!

[Tennisnut]

Yep......................in home swimming pools, traffic crashes, accidental poisoning, schoolyard accidents, abusive parents, and from a multitude of other causes.

Now, I'm going to fix the gun problem for you. At 8PM I'm going to wave a magic wand and there won't be a single firearm in the United States that isn't in the hands of either the military or the police.

Problem solved. Right?

Wrong. By 9PM the drug cartels in Mexico will have the word that there is an incredible demand for guns in the USA. They will stop smuggling drugs and will switch to smuggling guns. If we can't keep one out it is only logical that we can't keep the other out. Just as we couldn't keep alcohol out during Prohibition.

All of the illegal aliens who are entering the country daily will bring firearms with them as a form of payment for being smuggled in.

By 10PM a thug named Butch will be following a police officer across a mall parking lot towards the officer's police car. He will rush up and strike the officer in the head with an iron pipe, knocking him unconscious.

Butch will take the officer's gunbelt containing his gun, ammunition, Taser, pepper spray, handcuffs and radio. He will also take the keys to the police car so that he can get the AR-15 rifle and ammunition from the trunk of the car.

This will be happening all over the nation as thugs re-arm themselves after my magic wand took their guns.

Smugglers, who are already bold at our borders and often engage our police, will overwhelm the border to bring in and sell their incredibly valuable merchandise.............guns. Border bloodshed will be commonplace.

We will then be at the point in time that has been forseen on millions of bumper stickers over the period of many decades:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Welcome to reality.

:police:

I am not an outlaw so what kind of gun should I get? I want to be able to participate in protecting everyone from this horrible state of affairs in the US and The Villages! Maybe if I had a gun, that would be the tipping point in helping put everyone's mind at ease. Also, where does Butch live?

[buggyone]

"Also, where does Butch live?"

Stonecrest - he crossed the border with his fake gate pass! :throwtomatoes:

[Steve9930]

Yep......................in home swimming pools, traffic crashes, accidental poisoning, schoolyard accidents, abusive parents, and from a multitude of other causes.

Now, I'm going to fix the gun problem for you. At 8PM I'm going to wave a magic wand and there won't be a single firearm in the United States that isn't in the hands of either the military or the police.

Problem solved. Right?

Wrong. By 9PM the drug cartels in Mexico will have the word that there is an incredible demand for guns in the USA. They will stop smuggling drugs and will switch to smuggling guns. If we can't keep one out it is only logical that we can't keep the other out. Just as we couldn't keep alcohol out during Prohibition.

All of the illegal aliens who are entering the country daily will bring firearms with them as a form of payment for being smuggled in.

By 10PM a thug named Butch will be following a police officer across a mall parking lot towards the officer's police car. He will rush up and strike the officer in the head with an iron pipe, knocking him unconscious.

Butch will take the officer's gunbelt containing his gun, ammunition, Taser, pepper spray, handcuffs and radio. He will also take the keys to the police car so that he can get the AR-15 rifle and ammunition from the trunk of the car.

This will be happening all over the nation as thugs re-arm themselves after my magic wand took their guns.

Smugglers, who are already bold at our borders and often engage our police, will overwhelm the border to bring in and sell their incredibly valuable merchandise.............guns. Border bloodshed will be commonplace.

We will then be at the point in time that has been forseen on millions of bumper stickers over the period of many decades:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Welcome to reality.

:police:

Correct and to the point, thanks Carl.