Paradise Cart Gate busted again

[DonH57]

Going to Lowes this afternoon I noticed the gate has been struck by yet another darwin award winner. LOL. Leaves you to quess if they tried tailgating thru or were to fast for the gate or had to much adult beverage. That is a heavy duty gate but apparently not heavy duty enough. Unbelievable. Somewhere there yet another golf cart running around with front end damage.:loco:

[graciegirl]

I wonder if it was a hammer? Some people have a real beef about that gate. Don'tchaknow?

[DonH57]

Oh. I definately know the history behind that. I'm thinking if it was a person with a hammer and there is a camera either the person monitoring the camera failed to call police or were sleeping. Despite the history of the gate it is there to protect private property and I don't accept destruction of private property as any excuse.

[TVMayor]

Oh. I definately know the history behind that. I'm thinking if it was a person with a hammer and there is a camera either the person monitoring the camera failed to call police or were sleeping. Despite the history of the gate it is there to protect private property and I don't accept destruction of private property as any excuse.
A person monitoring a camera watching a gate 24 hours a day, and the neighbors did not hear the hammering. I do not think so.

[Rollie]

I think this is the 4th time that the gate has been broken.

Rollie

[graciegirl]

I think this is the 4th time that the gate has been broken.

Rollie


Rollie. I think it is more than four.

[rubicon]

It could be a coincidence but then I do not believe in coincidences. It doesn't past the smell test as it wreaks of disrespect. It reminds me of a neighbor of mine who refused to shovel his driveway and left his car on the road. Because of his car impediment the plow would make a wide sweep around leaving snow in front of his adjacent neighbors. When confronted by me his reply was God put it there let him take it away.

I suspect we have a cart driver or two saying TV put the gate there let them fix it. BRING BACK THE WALL

[Bryan]

If there is a camera at the gate, why isn't the picture or video of the recreant golf cart driver posted online so we can identify him or her? If there is no camera, why not?

[leftyf]

Bring back the wall!

[janmcn]

If there is a camera at the gate, why isn't the picture or video of the recreant golf cart driver posted online so we can identify him or her? If there is no camera, why not?


According to The Villages on-line news, upgraded cameras are being installed at several gates in TV, including this one.

As the photo at the top of the article shows, this was the outbound gate that was broken. It seems someone was in a hurry to leave TV, not to enter TV.

When someone who uses the gate on a daily basis reports the number of times it's been broken, the number seems more accurate than someone who has probably never used it, speculates.

Read the entire article, complete with photos, on their website.

[getdul981]

Bring back the wall!

I suspect that if this type of behavior continues the wall will go back. That will show those geriatric delinquents!!!

[George Bieniaszek]

Upgraded cameras are a great idea. But now The Villages or Sherriff's Office has to go one step further and develop some means of placing a unique identification on the golf carts as they do in Peach Tree City, Georgia. There, all golf carts must have a numbered decal displayed on their windshield that identifies who owns the golf cart. A registration sticker is issued, valid for 1 or 2 years to show that the registration is current.

The thought of being easily identified, may tone down some of the aggressive driving around the Villages by golf carts, and also hold those causing the destruction liable to pay for damages, especially with video evidence.

[skip0358]

It doesn't matter which way it's broken in or out. Some JACKASS broke the gate yet again period. I don't use it and have no desire to use it. JMO but WE don't deserve to go out that way anymore then those who don't live here deserve to come in that way. Put the DAMN wall back up. If we need to go over to that area take our cars period. If you leave here your driving on NON TV property period all the way over to ALDI. We are no better then anyone else period. We feel we're entitled to leave and drive, we say the outsiders don't pay for the paths which they don't, do we pay for the private areas we drive on , no we don't. I know the guy who built the assisted living building said he'd keep the path open. Why do you think because he didn't want complaints about his building being built period. Gates are broken all over TV on a daily basis. Slow down, wake up and start respecting what we have, period. My rant is done !!

[ttown]

As frequent user, it really isn't broken more than, say, the Del Mar gate.
It is due to trying to get through without waiting. You can even stop the gate with your card before it totally closes. Or opens.
Can we please move on?

[DonH57]

I suspect that if this type of behavior continues the wall will go back. That will show those geriatric delinquents!!!

LOL. Pretty good:laugh:

I only use it to go to Lowes or Cracker Barrel.

[Old_As_Dirt]

I have seen it busted at least 8 to 10 times. Until they construct a gate of steel, and not of aluminum, they will see this happen weekly. Saw it yesterday, the gate is no match for a golf cart.

[DonH57]

When it was first put up I thought it was sturdier than that and after these gate strikes and thinking about all those hollow plastic columns they stick on the cart paths this is the result. Someone else originally stated in a previous thread if those were concrete people certainly wouldn't hit them twice. In today's society we have to protect the stupid. I hate to sound mean but that's the way it is. Too many treating a golf cart like a toy.

[justjim]

If it was a steel gate someone in a cart could be seriously hurt and maybe that is why the gate is built so "flimsy".

The cost of gates per year in TV must be a big dollar number. I do agree without some cart ID the camera will be useless. I'm sure most of the gate damages in TV are accidents---you wonder how many residents are honest and turn themselves in? A good question for the District Manager.

[njbchbum]

If it was a steel gate someone in a cart could be seriously hurt and maybe that is why the gate is built so "flimsy".
snipped

Isn't the Harmeswood gate just like the Paradise gate? How many folks are injured by that gate? I haven't ready of any accidents there. Is that gate solid or flimsy?

[rubicon]

I ain't buying the news article's claim that this damage was caused by an out bound driver because no one who lives in TV is that much in a hurry to leave.

Unless....wait for it wait for it......it was a non-resident afraid of being caught for crossing over the border illegally.

Let's secure the border and build that wall and build it high

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Bring back the wall!

The problem with the wall was that it was more of a hinderance to Villages wanting to get to all of the businesses on that side by golf cart than it was a deterrent for outsiders to come in. I don't have statistics, but by my observation, which I admit is not much, there are more Villagers going to Lowes, Wal-Mart, Aldi, Beales etc than there are outsiders coming this way.

When the wall was built, my wife worked at Aldi (She has since changed jobs.) and she did not have a driver's license, (She has since gotten one). That meant that I was driving her to and from work four to five days a week, sometimes at 3:00 am.
Now you may say, "too bad, she chose to work there" and that's true. But, she chose to work there with the knowledge that the gate was open and she could get back and forth to work on a golf cart.
No, the wall is not the answer. I honestly believe that while there may be a few people from the outside sneaking onto our golf courses after hours, I don't think that the problem was so widespread that it necessitated inconveniencing the thousands of Villages residents who use that gate.
No, there is nothing in writing that says that we should have access to that area by golf cart. But it was very unfair, to people who have lived over here for 5-10-20-30 years, and had been using that gate for all that time, to have it taken away.
No, a wall is not the answer
I don't know if there's a camera there or not. I never noticed. But, if there is then it should be fairly easy to track down whoever is responsible for damaging the gate and make them pay for it.

[graciegirl]

Getting back to our regularly scheduled program........................

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Upgraded cameras are a great idea. But now The Villages or Sherriff's Office has to go one step further and develop some means of placing a unique identification on the golf carts as they do in Peach Tree City, Georgia. There, all golf carts must have a numbered decal displayed on their windshield that identifies who owns the golf cart. A registration sticker is issued, valid for 1 or 2 years to show that the registration is current.

The thought of being easily identified, may tone down some of the aggressive driving around the Villages by golf carts, and also hold those causing the destruction liable to pay for damages, especially with video evidence.

Actually, if it was damage by a Villages resident, (and there's a strong possibility that it was ) the they might be able to track the people down by looking at the video and tying it to the card that was used to open it. Unless, of course they didn't use their card at all.
But I would agree. Why not have a mandatory sticker on all Villages residents golf carts. In fact why not have a gate opening chip built right into something that is attached to the golf cart similar to a Sun Pass. That way we would haven't pull out our cards every time we come to a gate.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

As frequent user, it really isn't broken more than, say, the Del Mar gate.
It is due to trying to get through without waiting. You can even stop the gate with your card before it totally closes. Or opens.
Can we please move on?

That's an excellent point. The Medical Gate, leading into the historic district is broken again. I've seen that broken far more often than the Lowes gate.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It doesn't matter which way it's broken in or out. Some JACKASS broke the gate yet again period. I don't use it and have no desire to use it. JMO but WE don't deserve to go out that way anymore then those who don't live here deserve to come in that way. Put the DAMN wall back up. If we need to go over to that area take our cars period. If you leave here your driving on NON TV property period all the way over to ALDI. We are no better then anyone else period. We feel we're entitled to leave and drive, we say the outsiders don't pay for the paths which they don't, do we pay for the private areas we drive on , no we don't. I know the guy who built the assisted living building said he'd keep the path open. Why do you think because he didn't want complaints about his building being built period. Gates are broken all over TV on a daily basis. Slow down, wake up and start respecting what we have, period. My rant is done !!

Easy for you to say, especially as you admit, you never use it. But people who have lived here for years having been using that gate. It's a part of their lifestyle. People have made life decisions based on the fact that they could access that area by golf cart. If a wall was up from day one it would be one thing, but to change something like this after 30 odd years will unfairly affect the lives of many people.

[VT2TV]

Upgraded cameras are a great idea. But now The Villages or Sherriff's Office has to go one step further and develop some means of placing a unique identification on the golf carts as they do in Peach Tree City, Georgia. There, all golf carts must have a numbered decal displayed on their windshield that identifies who owns the golf cart. A registration sticker is issued, valid for 1 or 2 years to show that the registration is current.

The thought of being easily identified, may tone down some of the aggressive driving around the Villages by golf carts, and also hold those causing the destruction liable to pay for damages, especially with video evidence.



Love, love, love the idea of having some kind of BIG identification tag/whatever on all the carts using our multimodal pathways!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Easy for you to say, especially as you admit, you never use it. But people who have lived here for years having been using that gate. It's a part of their lifestyle. People have made life decisions based on the fact that they could access that area by golf cart. If a wall was up from day one it would be one thing, but to change something like this after 30 odd years will unfairly affect the lives of many people.



Well, this could of course could stir up another major problem. I am not trying to be unsympathetic, but times changes and things have to change along with it. It is not just the thousands from SC, and Spruce Creek that would be using our pathways, but if they are allowed to have access, everyone from 441 to 44 at least, in every direction will want access, especially Fruitland Park because of the developement in that area. Add to that all of the new residents from the still to be built areas, and our seasonal visitors, and our multimodal pathways will be unbearable. Thay would affect far more than the number of people who live near the gate and use it. Plus who is to say that one day soon, the owners of the land on the way to Aldi's will decide not to allow people to use their property to start with.





One other thing about the gate--I don't know who or what destroyed it, but if I were doing it to be mean because I wasn't allowed access to TV, I definitely would mess up the one that would look like a Villager had done it, to put the blame on them, and not SC or Sp Cr.

[PennBF]

Unfortunately this problem will not be solved with a gate where there is such significant criminal behavior. I saw the broken gate today and it was clear the serious damage could only be done by someone who was/is a criminal as if they were caught they would face criminal charges. Given this and the fact that it would appear there is no limit as to how much damage criminals could do to a gate it makes sense to reinstall the wall. I was originally against the wall and thought a gate would solve the concern but it is totally clear that emotions run so high that the only solution is a wall. I guess you could say Morse had it right the first time. Knowing this type of antisocial behavior is this bad in the area I would not feel comfortable living near the gate and would want to stop those who perform this vandalism from having any access near my home. :(

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Love, love, love the idea of having some kind of BIG identification tag/whatever on all the carts using our multimodal pathways!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






Well, this could of course could stir up another major problem. I am not trying to be unsympathetic, but times changes and things have to change along with it. It is not just the thousands from SC, and Spruce Creek that would be using our pathways, but if they are allowed to have access, everyone from 441 to 44 at least, in every direction will want access, especially Fruitland Park because of the developement in that area. Add to that all of the new residents from the still to be built areas, and our seasonal visitors, and our multimodal pathways will be unbearable. Thay would affect far more than the number of people who live near the gate and use it. Plus who is to say that one day soon, the owners of the land on the way to Aldi's will decide not to allow people to use their property to start with.





One other thing about the gate--I don't know who or what destroyed it, but if I were doing it to be mean because I wasn't allowed access to TV, I definitely would mess up the one that would look like a Villager had done it, to put the blame on them, and not SC or Sp Cr.

Really? Do you really think that there are "thousands" of outsiders coming through that gate? Do you have evidence to support that?

I don't have any evidence, but I really don't believe that the problem is that big. Making it less convenient for Villages doesn't seem, to me, to be an answer to what I believe is a rather small problem.

[getdul981]

Really? Do you really think that there are "thousands" of outsiders coming through that gate? Do you have evidence to support that?

I don't have any evidence, but I really don't believe that the problem is that big. Making it less convenient for Villages doesn't seem, to me, to be an answer to what I believe is a rather small problem.

Remember Barney Fife? "You've got to nip it, nip it in the bud!"

[George Bieniaszek]

I am being silly, but maybe we need to replace the gates at Paradise and Del Mar with a Bollard :)

Bollard crash test - YouTube (http://youtu.be/AyTOXiap3JY)

[VT2TV]

Really? Do you really think that there are "thousands" of outsiders coming through that gate? Do you have evidence to support that?

I don't have any evidence, but I really don't believe that the problem is that big. Making it less convenient for Villages doesn't seem, to me, to be an answer to what I believe is a rather small problem.





Actually I read an article just the other day that talked about the individual retirement communities and the number of houses along with other information. I seem to remember-and I am totally sure if I am wrong, the SC residents will be happy to correct me--but they have something like 2,300 houses in their community. And Spruce Creek had only slightly less, maybe 2000. Again, I totally admit I am not sure about the numbers, but I guess I could look it up. So, when you add 2300 to 2000, you get "thousands". Plus, some houses might have 2 golf carts. Also, the last time this issue came up, someone wrote that they lived across 441 also, and they want access too--no idea who that was.

I do understand that it would be very, very inconvenient to the people who live up near the wall. I was not 1 who said to put the wall back up, but I did say and still do that one day it may happen, or even if the wall doesn't go up on TV side, it may go up on the other private property. The owners of the various property may decide it is too much of a liability to have carts going back and forth. Other things unrelated to TV may stop the carts from TV from using the private property. I don't know all the situations. But you do need to realize that it may come to that, and be prepared for it. I personally didn't realize that there would be as many snowbirds here every winter, and I am not overjoyed about it, or the fact that I don't like a lot of the restaurants here. But I too just have to accept that if I want to live here. There are things everyone would change if we could, but it still is a wonderful place, and I just have deal with it, because I love living here... it is what it is...

[Cajulian]

Actually I read an article just the other day that talked about the individual retirement communities and the number of houses along with other information. I seem to remember-and I am totally sure if I am wrong, the SC residents will be happy to correct me--but they have something like 2,300 houses in their community. And Spruce Creek had only slightly less, maybe 2000. Again, I totally admit I am not sure about the numbers, but I guess I could look it up. So, when you add 2300 to 2000, you get "thousands". Plus, some houses might have 2 golf carts. Also, the last time this issue came up, someone wrote that they lived across 441 also, and they want access too--no idea who that was.

I do understand that it would be very, very inconvenient to the people who live up near the wall. I was not 1 who said to put the wall back up, but I did say and still do that one day it may happen, or even if the wall doesn't go up on TV side, it may go up on the other private property. The owners of the various property may decide it is too much of a liability to have carts going back and forth. Other things unrelated to TV may stop the carts from TV from using the private property. I don't know all the situations. But you do need to realize that it may come to that, and be prepared for it. I personally didn't realize that there would be as many snowbirds here every winter, and I am not overjoyed about it, or the fact that I don't like a lot of the restaurants here. But I too just have to accept that if I want to live here. There are things everyone would change if we could, but it still is a wonderful place, and I just have deal with it, because I love living here... it is what it is...

VT2TV,

You might want to look up Public records on the number of houses in both Stonecrest and Spruce Creek. Stonecrest is at a little over 1900 homes to date and Spruce Creek is even smaller.

And, if you believe that a majority of them and homes with multiple carts were traveling to the Villages thru the Paradise Gate, then maybe you should listen better to Dr Winston Bogie. He at least uses common sense with his viewpoints. You are way off base and very misleading in your statistics.

By the way this topic started off being about the damaged Paradise Gate, that was stated to be damaged by an outbound Cart from the Villages. Why would you, like several others, automatically accuse Stonecresters or Spruce Creek individuals?

Why don't you stick to facts and quit labeling innocent people.

[janmcn]

It's interesting that so many people with such strong opinions about the gate couldn't even find the gate without a map, let alone use it on a daily basis to get the necessities of life. There is quite a difference between not liking the restaurants and not being able to get to the grocery store or the doctor.


People who have access to cars should only comment if they can imagine not having transportation other than a golf cart. Do you really want to see seniors walking along 441/27 pushing their walkers through the grass?

[loonlovers]

It's interesting that so many people with such strong opinions about the gate couldn't even find the gate without a map, let alone use it on a daily basis to get the necessities of life. There is quite a difference between not liking the restaurants and not being able to get to the grocery store or the doctor.


People who have access to cars should only comment if they can imagine not having transportation other than a golf cart. Do you really want to see seniors walking along 441/27 pushing their walkers through the grass?

I say it's a sad day when residents of neighboring communities allow their handicapped residents to access to any services via walker. Where is the outreach program for these residents to attend to vital services they need? Why don't these communities or neighbors do the right thing and provide the necessary safe transportation. If an individual is handicapped enough to necessitate a walker, than I would think golf cart transportation may not be a safe transportation medium.

[DonH57]

I say it's a sad day when residents of neighboring communities allow their handicapped residents to access to any services via walker. Where is the outreach program for these residents to attend to vital serrtf hvices they need? th hose Why don't these communities or neighbors do the right thing and provide the necessary safe transportation. If an individual is handicapped enough to necessitate a walker, than I would think golf cart transportation may not be a safe transportation medium.

See. This is really confusing for me as I don't understand how handicapped persons only in some neighboring communities can only have to use golf carts to get to medical buildings when there are transportation options like my own mother can use. If I had mobility issues a golf cart would be the last mode of transport I'd consider. How did handicapped people have anything to do with a broken gate in the first place?

[Barefoot]

Do you really want to see seniors walking along 441/27 pushing their walkers through the grass?

Have you actually seen this happening? :confused:

[VT2TV]

VT2TV,

You might want to look up Public records on the number of houses in both Stonecrest and Spruce Creek. Stonecrest is at a little over 1900 homes to date and Spruce Creek is even smaller.

And, if you believe that a majority of them and homes with multiple carts were traveling to the Villages thru the Paradise Gate, then maybe you should listen better to Dr Winston Bogie. He at least uses common sense with his viewpoints. You are way off base and very misleading in your statistics.

By the way this topic started off being about the damaged Paradise Gate, that was stated to be damaged by an outbound Cart from the Villages. Why would you, like several others, automatically accuse Stonecresters or Spruce Creek individuals?

Why don't you stick to facts and quit labeling innocent people.


Thank you for your suggestion that I google SC and Sp Cr. I did that and Stonecrest lists 2200 homes in the facts on its site, and Sp CR lists 1650, which still adds up to "thousands". There are your facts. And it is not inconceiveable that homes would have more than 1 cart coming to TV. Now, to be totally fair I took the time to read into the article about SC, and I don't know when the article was written, but at that time it was over 1900. But if you add to that other areas that would want to use the cart paths, it would add up to more. And no where did I say people would be traveling at the same time. But every cart that travels on the MMP adds to the wear and tear. As far as critizing me for saying that it could be non Villagers that wrecked the gate, think about it. Why would Villagers wreck the gate, we already have access, stands to reason it would be someone who was mad about the gate being there....

[mickey100]

My guess would be that you have maybe hundreds who use the gate, not thousands. A drop in the bucket when you consider the combined number of residents living in all three communities. I still don't see the big deal. Yes, The Villages has the legal right to close off access, but morally, I think the Villages is being a bad neighbor in this situation.

[graciegirl]

My guess would be that you have maybe hundreds who use the gate, not thousands. A drop in the bucket when you consider the combined number of residents living in all three communities. I still don't see the big deal. Yes, The Villages has the legal right to close off access, but morally, I think the Villages is being a bad neighbor in this situation.



In the light that there have been 13 deaths from golf cart accidents in the last four years within our borders...and the potential for a couple thousand MORE golf carts on our paths from the residents of those communities, I think it is a wise and prudent decision. But as you know I am annoying usually FOR The Villages and the developer. He appears to know how to make wise decisions.

[mickey100]

Another attack for simply stating one's opinion. How tiresome and petty. Because one does not agree with a decision by the Developer, does not mean one is "against" The Villages. Such logic. Not.

[mickey100]

And for the record, all of the Developer's decisions have not been wise ones. How about the decisions that led to the class action lawsuit a few years back, to the tune of $40 million. That was a bonehead move. If they had just admitted they had made a mistake, and done what was right, that all could have been avoided. Sure, they paid up in the end, but only after being forced to by a lawsuit.

Statistically, the few hundred extra golf carts in our community is not going to create any huge increase in golf cart fatalities. In my mind, it would have been more prudent to come up with a way of making this a win-win situation with our neighbors. Maybe there is something that could have benefitted Villagers that they could have shared, or they could have come up with a pass situation, whereby they buy a gate pass. . What is to be gained by alienating neighbors? I see a lot of people that claim to be Christians, but this isn't the Christian spirit I was taught.

[Moderator]

The topic is the damage to the Paradise Gate. Please address the topic and not each other.

[Rollie]

If you look at the damage of the gate, it looks as if a golf cart hit it, punching out the middle bars of the gate. Each time the gate has been broken, it has been broken the same way. Therefore I feel that golf cart driving testing should be required of all Villages residents. lol

Rollie

[ttown]

Uh....before August of last year the whole thing was wide open. No problems until Fruitland Park loomed. No traffic jams nor huge increase in golf cart incidents.
The path is short. Then like most of the old side, there are no cart paths till the dog park area. We lived happily and quietly with each other. Wish it had stayed the same and I live close to the gate.

[graciegirl]

Uh....before August of last year the whole thing was wide open. No problems until Fruitland Park loomed. No traffic jams nor huge increase in golf cart incidents.
The path is short. Then like most of the old side, there are no cart paths till the dog park area. We lived happily and quietly with each other. Wish it had stayed the same and I live close to the gate.


It needed to be closed or managed so as to protect the other border, kiddo. Those southerners are Villagers too.

[DonH57]

Last thing I remember reading was something refering to upgrading the camera system. I'm curious as to what was wrong with the other camera. If you have the same damage done the same way maybe a better design or reinforcement.

[PennBF]

Where we use to live there were camera's high on entrance posts and the time and a photo of the vehicle entering were recorded when the gate(s) opened. If there was a question on the property we could pull the records, (e.g. dates
and times) and using that pull up a picture of the vehicle entering. This was done because of the number of people using the property to get to the beach when they were not residents or visitors. I truly don't understand why this cannot be done at the gate in question. Put a camers "High" on the post record the times and pictures when the gate opens or closes. It would be easy to identify who is breaking the gate either by accident (questionable?) or on purpose (more likely) and bring the appropriate legal actions. It would be cheaper than conitinuing to repair damages.:bowdown:

[njbchbum]

Where we use to live there were camera's high on entrance posts and the time and a photo of the vehicle entering were recorded when the gate(s) opened. If there was a question on the property we could pull the records, (e.g. dates
and times) and using that pull up a picture of the vehicle entering. This was done because of the number of people using the property to get to the beach when they were not residents or visitors. I truly don't understand why this cannot be done at the gate in question. Put a camers "High" on the post record the times and pictures when the gate opens or closes. It would be easy to identify who is breaking the gate either by accident (questionable?) or on purpose (more likely) and bring the appropriate legal actions. It would be cheaper than conitinuing to repair damages.:bowdown:

Identifying the cart that causes any damage is easy with a camera security system...how do you then determine the owner of the cart and where that cart is kept?

[George Bieniaszek]

Hi Penn!

Might be harder than you think making a positive ID on the person that caused the damage without a unique identifier on the golf cart.

Take my cart as an example. I have a silver EZGO 4-seater. There has to be a hundred of them running around The Villages. OK, so I have a UCONN sticker on the front of my cart that makes it unique. Now the challenge is, "Who am I" when those features are identified in the pictures.

My point is that I support steps in a golf cart registration system similar to the one they use in Peach Tree City, Georgia and going after those that drive aggressive and/or recklessly causing crashes and damage.

[DonH57]

I was curious why a picture of someone busting the gate couldn't be posted in the Daily Sun and other outlets for help in identification. I think it would be a good start.

[Regor]

Let's be America's Friendliest Home Town and get rid of the gate! I would much rather have more golf carts in TV than cars. Since the gate appeared I haven't noticed any difference in the amount of carts on the trails. It's just an added expense to try to keep a FEW carts out.

[janmcn]

The Tri-County Medical Center owns the gate and contracts with the VCCDD for its maintenance and operation, according to The Villages on-line news. Therefore the Medical Center will pay for the repairs.

The suggestions about identifying mechanisms placed on golf carts are all good ones, but who would be in charge of enforcing the laws? The Sumter County sheriff's office has enough on its hands with monitoring automobiles and other vehicular traffic plus all of it's other law enforcement duties.

[mickey100]

Let's be America's Friendliest Home Town and get rid of the gate! I would much rather have more golf carts in TV than cars. Since the gate appeared I haven't noticed any difference in the amount of carts on the trails. It's just an added expense to try to keep a FEW carts out.

:bowdown:

[DonH57]

I think we should wait till even more surrounding communities are completed before removing the gate and other future access points. Let's max out the traffic on the cart paths as if they're not crowded enough. Remember you can't exclude some communities and include others. In fact let's remove the uniqueness of the villages all together.

[PennBF]

I have a strong opinion that all Golf Carts should/must have a form of ID which would be provided by The Villages. This should be added to the rules of The Villages. It makes no sense to allow 60,000+ vehicles to run around and not be able to be identified !! If you are hit by a drunk and they just ignore it you may not be able to identify the violator. There are a number of reasons for an ID on the Cart and I don't see any reason that would support not having them. If someong objects that would imply they may be part of the problem??? I know the POA is going after seat belts but don't understand why they have not adopted this as a serious issue. :rant-rave:

[janmcn]

I have a strong opinion that all Golf Carts should/must have a form of ID which would be provided by The Villages. This should be added to the rules of The Villages. It makes no sense to allow 60,000+ vehicles to run around and not be able to be identified !! If you are hit by a drunk and they just ignore it you may not be able to identify the violator. There are a number of reasons for an ID on the Cart and I don't see any reason that would support not having them. If someong objects that would imply they may be part of the problem??? I know the POA is going after seat belts but don't understand why they have not adopted this as a serious issue. :rant-rave:

Have you asked the POA about this issue either at a meeting or by email. If so, what was their response? Once golf carts have ID, who would make sure the drivers are following the rules?

[PennBF]

I have not asked the POA regarding this issue but believe it is something they should attack. Under todays system there is no way of identifying a cart if it hit someone, was driving under the influence, allowing young children to drive the vehicle. etc. Like driving a car through a regulated red light camera, or leaving the scene of an accident it would be critical which cart was responsible, etc. We tell owners how high their lawns must be, if RVs' can be parked in certain areas, how fast they can drive on the roads, etc. but don't regulate what cart may have violated the law, etc. Does not make sense. :bowdown:

[DonH57]

I have not asked the POA regarding this issue but believe it is something they should attack. Under todays system there is no way of identifying a cart if it hit someone, was driving under the influence, allowing young children to drive the vehicle. etc. Like driving a car through a regulated red light camera, or leaving the scene of an accident it would be critical which cart was responsible, etc. We tell owners how high their lawns must be, if RVs' can be parked in certain areas, how fast they can drive on the roads, etc. but don't regulate what cart may have violated the law, etc. Does not make sense. :bowdown:

Wasn't there a accident a few weeks involving two carts adjacent to the turtle mound golf course and one of the cart operators were found to be intoxicated by sumter county deputies? I'm thinking someone had to have called 911. I also remember some posters on here claiming police had no jurisdiction on cart paths during discussions on other threads. I always try to have my cell phone with me in my cart.

[Carl in Tampa]

I think we should wait till even more surrounding communities are completed before removing the gate and other future access points. Let's max out the traffic on the cart paths as if they're not crowded enough. Remember you can't exclude some communities and include others. In fact let's remove the uniqueness of the villages all together.

Perhaps we are getting to the point that we should request that sarcastic posts be made in bright blue so that no one misunderstands.

The point is well taken that there are still thousands of acres of undeveloped land surrounding The Villages that could be developed into housing tracts by other developers who might provide access to "The Villages Lifestyle" by paving golf cart paths to our unsecured "borders."

Now is the time to cut off all access to our multi-modal paths from the outside and declare that if you want The Villages Lifestyle you must own a home in The Villages.

As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."

.

[DonH57]

Perhaps we are getting to the point that we should request that sarcastic posts be made in bright blue so that no one misunderstands.

The point is well taken that there are still thousands of acres of undeveloped land surrounding The Villages that could be developed into housing tracts by other developers who might provide access to "The Villages Lifestyle" by paving golf cart paths to our unsecured "borders."

Now is the time to cut off all access to our multi-modal paths from the outside and declare that if you want The Villages Lifestyle you must own a home in The Villages.

As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."

.


I'll clarify this. If my comment was interpreted as being sarcastic and that's what you read so be it. I just want to make that crystal clear.:shrug:

[bkcunningham1]

Perhaps we are getting to the point that we should request that sarcastic posts be made in bright blue so that no one misunderstands.

The point is well taken that there are still thousands of acres of undeveloped land surrounding The Villages that could be developed into housing tracts by other developers who might provide access to "The Villages Lifestyle" by paving golf cart paths to our unsecured "borders."

Now is the time to cut off all access to our multi-modal paths from the outside and declare that if you want The Villages Lifestyle you must own a home in The Villages.

As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."

.

...and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."


As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."
:icon_wink:

[graciegirl]

Perhaps we are getting to the point that we should request that sarcastic posts be made in bright blue so that no one misunderstands.

The point is well taken that there are still thousands of acres of undeveloped land surrounding The Villages that could be developed into housing tracts by other developers who might provide access to "The Villages Lifestyle" by paving golf cart paths to our unsecured "borders."

Now is the time to cut off all access to our multi-modal paths from the outside and declare that if you want The Villages Lifestyle you must own a home in The Villages.

As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."

.



Very good point Carl. Didn't see any sarcasm, Don. Carl must have been referring to another post.

[mickey100]

As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."

.

If that is the case, why doesn't the Developer allow fences in between homes in The Villages? And I seem to remember a lot of people having their shorts in a bind about an invisible dog fence that only the owner could see. You can't have it both ways.

[CFrance]

Let's stick to the golf cart gate problem and leave the dog fences out of it.

[graciegirl]

Having The Villages off limits to golf carts that are not FROM here, when the potential for the number of them being much more than "a few hundred" is only prudent, given that 13 people in The Villages have died from golf cart accidents in the last four years.


We have yet to see the number increase for people with golf carts who will soon live here and pay to live here. (As Carl and Don have so reasonably pointed out.)


Some things are not a right. They are a privilege.


I am all for having easily identifiable numbers applied to all Villages carts...as long as it doesn't get to be a bureaucratic mess.

[DonH57]

Having The Villages off limits to golf carts that are not FROM here, when the potential for the number of them being much more than "a few hundred" is only prudent, given that 13 people in The Villages have died from golf cart accidents in the last four years.


We have yet to see the number increase for people with golf carts who will soon live here and pay to live here. (As Carl and Don have so reasonably pointed out.)


Some things are not a right. They are a privilege.


I am all for having easily identified numbers applied to all Villages carts...as long as it doesn't get to be a bureaucratic mess.

I'm also all for having some type of ID system for golf carts. I'm confident there is a way to do it. I agree that useing a golf cart on village paths and the public streets within is a privilege Gracie.

[CFrance]

They need an ID number big enough to be photographed by a camera or read by the person in the cart behind. Police have jurisdiction over the golf cart paths if there is something illegal going on (driving while drunk, open container, etc.). They could be turned into the police, or otherwise they could be turned into whatever department in TV goes after the people who are photographed breaking a gate in a car. (Public safety dept., maybe??)

[redwitch]

I'm also all for having some type of ID system for golf carts. I'm confident there is a way to do it. I agree that useing a golf cart on village paths and the public streets within is a privilege Gracie.

Using a golf cart on the paths is a privilege. Using a golf cart on public streets is a right. Even those who do not live in TV pay taxes and some of those taxes go to maintain the roads in TV.

Personally, I like the idea of (1) having identifying stickers on golf carts and (2) charging non-Village golf carts a FAIR (not the entire monthly amenity fee) fee to use our paths. This could be easily accomplished with stickers.

As to people using TV amenities without having the right to do so, maybe it is time for TV to start having these people arrested for trespassing. That should put a stop to that issue quite quickly.

I'm honestly not convinced that our paths will be overwhelmed with non-TVers even if Spruce Creek and those surrounding communities, Fruitland Park and Wildwood are allowed to use our paths. It would be a long drive from any of these areas to the town squares. Most would not have the time nor the patience to go that far when a car can do it in half the time. However, I do agree that if they're going to use our private paths, they should contribute to their maintenance.

[DonH57]

Using a golf cart on the paths is a privilege. Using a golf cart on public streets is a right. Even those who do not live in TV pay taxes and some of those taxes go to maintain the roads in TV.

Personally, I like the idea of (1) having identifying stickers on golf carts and (2) charging non-Village golf carts a FAIR (not the entire monthly amenity fee) fee to use our paths. This could be easily accomplished with stickers.

As to people using TV amenities without having the right to do so, maybe it is time for TV to start having these people arrested for trespassing. That should put a stop to that issue quite quickly.

I'm honestly not convinced that our paths will be overwhelmed with non-TVers even if Spruce Creek and those surrounding communities, Fruitland Park and Wildwood are allowed to use our paths. It would be a long drive from any of these areas to the town squares. Most would not have the time nor the patience to go that far when a car can do it in half the time. However, I do agree that if they're going to use our private paths, they should contribute to their maintenance.

Very true Redwitch. I'm located north of 466 and before the birds went north I observed a pretty busy cart traffic in our area. From what I've read on TOTV it's even worse down by Colony and Brownwood is getting busier. Between speeding carts and near misses it will be even worse this fall.

[Mikeod]

Using a golf cart on the paths is a privilege. Using a golf cart on public streets is a right. Even those who do not live in TV pay taxes and some of those taxes go to maintain the roads in TV.

.

I don't believe driving carts on public roads is any more of a right than driving a car. Driving is a privilege no matter what vehicle you are using. And that privilege can be rescinded if the state chooses to do so. There are communities built around golf courses that prohibit carts on the roads, only on paths.

[redwitch]

I don't believe driving carts on public roads is any more of a right than driving a car. Driving is a privilege no matter what vehicle you are using. And that privilege can be rescinded if the state chooses to do so. There are communities built around golf courses that prohibit carts on the roads, only on paths.

Yes, driving is a privilege. However, if a community permits driving a golf cart on PUBLIC roads, then the community does not have the right to stop non-members of that community from using those roads whether in a car, truck or golf cart. People really can't have their cake and eat it, too. That just doesn't work.

[janmcn]

Using a golf cart on the paths is a privilege. Using a golf cart on public streets is a right. Even those who do not live in TV pay taxes and some of those taxes go to maintain the roads in TV.

Personally, I like the idea of (1) having identifying stickers on golf carts and (2) charging non-Village golf carts a FAIR (not the entire monthly amenity fee) fee to use our paths. This could be easily accomplished with stickers.

As to people using TV amenities without having the right to do so, maybe it is time for TV to start having these people arrested for trespassing. That should put a stop to that issue quite quickly.

I'm honestly not convinced that our paths will be overwhelmed with non-TVers even if Spruce Creek and those surrounding communities, Fruitland Park and Wildwood are allowed to use our paths. It would be a long drive from any of these areas to the town squares. Most would not have the time nor the patience to go that far when a car can do it in half the time. However, I do agree that if they're going to use our private paths, they should contribute to their maintenance.

So all those that advocate for a fee for using our private paths would also include those residents living at Bison Valley and Oak Meadow who pay no amenity fee? I totally agree.

The Villages advertises these homes for sale as being golf cart accessible and even built a golf cart path into these neighborhoods. Now these residents have to step up and pay their fair share.

[DonH57]

So all those that advocate for a fee for using our private paths would also include those residents living at Bison Valley and Oak Meadow who pay no amenity fee? I totally agree.

The Villages advertises these homes for sale as being golf cart accessible and even built a golf cart path into these neighborhoods. Now these residents have to step up and pay their fair share.

Just out of curiousity because I don't know, are these 2 villages built for The Villages employees or are they completely not connected to the developer?

[mickey100]

Using a golf cart on the paths is a privilege. Using a golf cart on public streets is a right. Even those who do not live in TV pay taxes and some of those taxes go to maintain the roads in TV.

Personally, I like the idea of (1) having identifying stickers on golf carts and (2) charging non-Village golf carts a FAIR (not the entire monthly amenity fee) fee to use our paths. This could be easily accomplished with stickers.

As to people using TV amenities without having the right to do so, maybe it is time for TV to start having these people arrested for trespassing. That should put a stop to that issue quite quickly.

I'm honestly not convinced that our paths will be overwhelmed with non-TVers even if Spruce Creek and those surrounding communities, Fruitland Park and Wildwood are allowed to use our paths. It would be a long drive from any of these areas to the town squares. Most would not have the time nor the patience to go that far when a car can do it in half the time. However, I do agree that if they're going to use our private paths, they should contribute to their maintenance.

I agree. And I just don't think there are that many carts from other communities coming in here. The communities are too far away, and its not really convenient for a lot of golf cart travel. We have a large group of friends over in Spruce Creek and they always take the car. And I'd guess it takes about 15-20 minutes by car. They've never expressed interest in going by golf cart.

Nor do I think there are a lot of outsiders using the pools and facilities. And those people could have easily come in by cars anyways. The Villages could be a good neighbor by charging a realistic trail fee for those who want to get through a gate by golf cart and use the recreational trails.

[janmcn]

Just out of curiousity because I don't know, are these 2 villages built for The Villages employees or are they completely not connected to the developer?

Bison Valley was built by the developer for anyone wanting to buy there. Oak Meadows was here when I arrived in 2000, so I don't know the history, but once again anyone can buy a home there. Both of these villages are adjacent to TV, but neither has any amenities. Therefore residents pay no amenity fee.

[Xavier]

I agree. And I just don't think there are that many carts from other communities coming in here. The communities are too far away, and its not really convenient for a lot of golf cart travel. We have a large group of friends over in Spruce Creek and they always take the car. And I'd guess it takes about 15-20 minutes by car. They've never expressed interest in going by golf cart.

Nor do I think there are a lot of outsiders using the pools and facilities. And those people could have easily come in by cars anyways. The Villages could be a good neighbor by charging a realistic trail fee for those who want to get through a gate by golf cart and use the recreational trails.

So then, as a resident of The Villages, I decide to sell my cart and use my car only, I should get a refund equal to what you suggest we should charge outsiders. Correct? Maybe, I could only use my cart every other year or month.

What was it about The Villages that made you buy here over buying in Spruce Creek where you have a large group of friends?

Xavier

[DonH57]

Bison Valley was built by the developer for anyone wanting to buy there. Oak Meadows was here when I arrived in 2000, so I don't know the history, but once again anyone can buy a home there. Both of these villages are adjacent to TV, but neither has any amenities. Therefore residents pay no amenity fee.

Ahh. Ok. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't recall hearing of them so I thought I would ask.

[Cajulian]

Nice to see the last dozen or so posts having a civilized discussion on what open access for carts would mean. Also the idea of charging a pro rated fee for support of upkeep.

One of the posters cited their opinion on the likelihood of some outsiders would prefer car travel to many of the squares, just because it is easier than long cart travel.

Finally, some common sense is happening in many posts and the discussion is far more civil.

Thanks for that.

:coolsmiley:

[graciegirl]

Nice to see the last dozen or so posts having a civilized discussion on what open access for carts would mean. Also the idea of charging a pro rated fee for support of upkeep.

One of the posters cited their opinion on the likelihood of some outsiders would prefer car travel to many of the squares, just because it is easier than long cart travel.

Finally, some common sense is happening in many posts and the discussion is far more civil.

Thanks for that.

:coolsmiley:




Had you ever thought of moving here?

[chuckinca]

What would be a fair use fee for:

1. Cart path thru Paradise Gate
2. Cart path from Paradise Dr to 441/27 bridge
3. Cart path from 441/27 bridge to parking lot behind Ruby Tuesday

What would be a fair daily use fee for:

4. Cart paths and tunnels from Morse to Lake Sumter bridge and then to Lake Sumter Landing Road.

What would be a fair daily use fee for:

5. Cart paths and tunnels other than items 1 - 4

Assume items 1 - 3 annual use: 12 round trips
Assume item 4 annual use: 3 round trips
Assume item 5 annual use: 1 round trip

.

[graciegirl]

Nope. I vote for no paying at the gate. Chuck. We want you to move here too.

[Steve9930]

I have a suggestion. Put in a toll booth box. Say for starters you put in a dollar or a credit card and the gates opens. Now when you want to leave you need to have the gate open automatically. This is one of the reasons the gate keeps getting broken. In most parts of the villages all the out going gates open automatically. This one needs your access card to open. This does not follow the normal procedure and it is confusing the residents. They think the gate opens as you approach and it does not, thus you have a collision with the gate. This type of programming difference would even cause a problem in a non-senior community.

[Steve9930]

I'm not sure why everyone believes there is this large group of people trying to use Paradise Gate. There is probably at the most 100 people that are pushing for access. Most of those that access TV now either have a card that their friends provided or have street legal carts and cross 441/27. I personally have little use for using the cart to get to Spanish Springs. I have access to all I need without going over there. If I want to go to Outback I use my auto. That's a long boring ride by cart. I used to go to Publix there but the Publix on 42 is a better store. Again that's a long ride through Paradise Gate.

[graciegirl]

I'm not sure why everyone believes there is this large group of people trying to use Paradise Gate. There is probably at the most 100 people that are pushing for access. Most of those that access TV now either have a card that their friends provided or have street legal carts and cross 441/27. I personally have little use for using the cart to get to Spanish Springs. I have access to all I need without going over there. If I want to go to Outback I use my auto. That's a long boring ride by cart. I used to go to Publix there but the Publix on 42 is a better store. Again that's a long ride through Paradise Gate.



Steve? How many folks of the roughly 2000 in Stonecrest have golf carts?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I have a suggestion. Put in a toll booth box. Say for starters you put in a dollar or a credit card and the gates opens. Now when you want to leave you need to have the gate open automatically. This is one of the reasons the gate keeps getting broken. In most parts of the villages all the out going gates open automatically. This one needs your access card to open. This does not follow the normal procedure and it is confusing the residents. They think the gate opens as you approach and it does not, thus you have a collision with the gate. This type of programming difference would even cause a problem in a non-senior community.

The difference with this gate is that you entering and leaving Villages property when you go through it. Al of the other gates are within The Villages property.

[njbchbum]

I'm not sure why everyone believes there is this large group of people trying to use Paradise Gate. There is probably at the most 100 people that are pushing for access. Most of those that access TV now either have a card that their friends provided or have street legal carts and cross 441/27. I personally have little use for using the cart to get to Spanish Springs. I have access to all I need without going over there. If I want to go to Outback I use my auto. That's a long boring ride by cart. I used to go to Publix there but the Publix on 42 is a better store. Again that's a long ride through Paradise Gate.

I'm not sure why Stonecresters believe they should even have access to the gate.

If most of the 100 who are pushing for access already have a card or a street legal cart - why are they whining about access?

[Steve9930]

Steve? How many folks of the roughly 2000 in Stonecrest have golf carts?

Probably pretty much all of them but only maybe 10% at the most even have an interest in using the gate and their Golf Cart. You have to remember that gate was wide open for years. Has there been a marked decrease in traffic through the gate since the closure? From what I can see the stream of traffic looks about the same and without any actual data collection its all a guess as to the traffic level. But visually it looks about the same. There are some that would use the gate to go to the square or over to the Hospital. But quite frankly I've made that trip and its far more pleasant in an auto.

The bridge is another factor. The bridge which was designed when a Golf Cart was a Golf Cart has now become dangerous. Its is not adequate for the traffic that now passes over it. There are too many of the carts now that are wider, heavier, and faster. Sooner or later there is going to be a fatality at the bridge. The slope is too steep and people travel too fast. Add in a few drinks and the potential for a disaster increases. If I were you guys I would be pushing for a new tunnel under 441/27. Far safer.

The paradise gate programming should be changed so when you leave TV it opens automatically. I think the difference in the way it works is causing a collision problem. People drive up to the gate thinking it will open automatically on the way out, before they realize it they have just run into it. Had one here in Stonecrest that did not work as the others and it caused the same problem. People expect things to work a certain way when 99% of everything else works in a certain fashion. Your also going to get tailgaters trying to sneak through behind someone. So the gate needs to be designed so if anything is on the loop sensor it will not close. The gates to Walmart were always being broken until they did the loop sensing correctly. This would be my professional opinion after designing systems that interfaced with the human for over 40 years.

From my perspective I have access to several restaurants, a department store, Lowes, and Walmart. Whether I can get through the Paradise Gate does not mean much to me. The only reason I need to get to the Hospital Facilities on the West side of 441/27 is to see the FAA Flight Surgeon every two years to take my FAA Flight Physical. I park across the street and walk over to the Sharon Morse Building. Its good exercise.

Always nice to hear from you.

[CFrance]

I'm not sure why Stonecresters believe they should even have access to the gate.

If most of the 100 who are pushing for access already have a card or a street legal cart - why are they whining about access?
I'd like to know where they got a card. I thought once you reported a card as lost or damaged, it was deactivated. Even if they have a card, they're trespassing.

[DougB]

Why all the discussion on who should use the gate and how (toll, yearly fee, Villagers, non-Villagers, etc.) There is only one person who can make that decision and I doubt he cares what any of us think. I like all his decisions so far. Pretty sure he feels the cost of repairing the gate many times outweighs the cost of not having one.

[Carl in Tampa]

Very good point Carl. Didn't see any sarcasm, Don. Carl must have been referring to another post.

Gracie, I thought (and would hope) that Don was being sarcastic when he said, "In fact let's remove the uniqueness of the villages all together."

Do you think he was seriously proposing that?

.

[CFrance]

Why all the discussion on who should use the gate and how (toll, yearly fee, Villagers, non-Villagers, etc.) There is only one person who can make that decision and I doubt he cares what any of us think. I like all his decisions so far.
Tell that to the people who are going over the "one person's" head and getting politicians and publicity involved.

I hope the "one person" sticks to his guns--er, resolve.

[Carl in Tampa]

...and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:

'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."


As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."
:icon_wink:

Two points:

1. In the case described in the poem, Frost questioned the need for the fence since there was no great danger of the neighbors' intrusion on each other's land, (neither had cows) but both he and the neighbor were cooperatively participating in rebuilding the breaches in the wall anyway.

2. In our case there is an issue of intrusion onto our land, not by cows but by golf carts which have no right to be here.

I am continually astounded by the sense of entitlement to intrude on our paths by people who have absolutely no right to do so.


.

[njbchbum]

snipped

The bridge is another factor. The bridge which was designed when a Golf Cart was a Golf Cart has now become dangerous. Its is not adequate for the traffic that now passes over it. There are too many of the carts now that are wider, heavier, and faster. Sooner or later there is going to be a fatality at the bridge. The slope is too steep and people travel too fast. Add in a few drinks and the potential for a disaster increases. If I were you guys I would be pushing for a new tunnel under 441/27. Far safer.

snipped

That reasoning just seems to indicate that any extra traffic over the bridge is not a good idea; nor does it seem to be in the best interest to use it if one does not have to use it, Stonecrester or not!

[Carl in Tampa]

I'll clarify this. If my comment was interpreted as being sarcastic and that's what you read so be it. I just want to make that crystal clear.:shrug:

Don, it looks like you and Gracie totally misunderstood my post.

I loved your post! It was obviously (to me) sarcasm. I have proposed in the past that this board should adopt a different font color for posts that are intended to be sarcasm, because there always seems to be someone who doesn't get it.

Or, was I wrong? Were you being serious when you proposed we let in everyone until our paths get so clogged that the joy of using them is gone? Did you seriously mean, "In fact let's remove the uniqueness of the villages all together." ?


.

[njbchbum]

I'd like to know where they got a card. I thought once you reported a card as lost or damaged, it was deactivated. Even if they have a card, they're trespassing.

Some homes in the villages may have been issued their two gate passes but only need one - or - snowbirds might "loan" their passes out after they fly north.

[Carl in Tampa]

If that is the case, why doesn't the Developer allow fences in between homes in The Villages? And I seem to remember a lot of people having their shorts in a bind about an invisible dog fence that only the owner could see. You can't have it both ways.

Perhaps the Developer doesn't read poetry.

And, he has shown many times that he can have "it" however he wants it.

:icon_wink:

[janmcn]

Perhaps the Developer doesn't read poetry.

And, he has shown many times that he can have "it" however he wants it.

:icon_wink:

Mr. H. Gary Morse doesn't always get his way. He had to backtrack on the wall when the residents demonstrated in Spanish Springs. The rumble caused the Orlando press to drop what they were doing and rush to TV to report and publish their reports. Mr. Morse doesn't like bad publicity. Bad publicity causes sales to fall, and he hates when that happens.

The moral of the story is, if you want to get the developer's attention, just have a rumble in town square.

[graciegirl]

Perhaps the Developer doesn't read poetry.

And, he has shown many times that he can have "it" however he wants it.

:icon_wink:



Thank heavens HE is in charge.

[Carl in Tampa]

Mr. H. Gary Morse doesn't always get his way. He had to backtrack on the wall when the residents demonstrated in Spanish Springs. The rumble caused the Orlando press to drop what they were doing and rush to TV to report and publish their reports. Mr. Morse doesn't like bad publicity. Bad publicity causes sales to fall, and he hates when that happens.

The moral of the story is, if you want to get the developer's attention, just have a rumble in town square.

And there are still no fences around the deed restricted residences.

:icon_wink:

[CFrance]

Some homes in the villages may have been issued their two gate passes but only need one - or - snowbirds might "loan" their passes out after they fly north.
In which case those people are trespassing. Another reason to have cart IDs. Anyone filmed entering that gate without a TV ID on their cart is doing so illegally.

[Steve9930]

That reasoning just seems to indicate that any extra traffic over the bridge is not a good idea; nor does it seem to be in the best interest to use it if one does not have to use it, Stonecrester or not!

I would be extremely cautious at that bridge. Its an accident waiting to happen.

[Steve9930]

Tell that to the people who are going over the "one person's" head and getting politicians and publicity involved.

I hope the "one person" sticks to his guns--er, resolve.

The current group is trying to get a crossing at the Hospital, not reopen the gate. The developer will have no direct say in the matter.

[mickey100]

I'm sure that will disappoint some of the Developer worshippers.

[Steve9930]

In which case those people are trespassing. Another reason to have cart IDs. Anyone filmed entering that gate without a TV ID on their cart is doing so illegally.

If that is true then everyone that goes to Aldi, Lowes, and Walmart on 441 from the villages are also trespassers. You are trespassing on private property. Sounds like a pretty Hypocritical argument to me.

[njbchbum]

If that is true then everyone that goes to Aldi, Lowes, and Walmart on 441 from the villages are also trespassers. You are trespassing on private property. Sounds like a pretty Hypocritical argument to me.

Aldi, maybe, but not Lowes/Walmart. How is it trespassing if the property owners permit/facilitate it and do not implement the obstructions that are necessary before any use of the land can be declared trespass?

But anyone entering the gate without their personal access card would be a trespasser at that point.

[Steve9930]

Aldi, maybe, but not Lowes/Walmart. How is it trespassing if the property owners permit/facilitate it and do not implement the obstructions that are necessary before any use of the land can be declared trespass?

But anyone entering the gate without their personal access card would be a trespasser at that point.

No one has permission to cross the property, There has been no letter, degree, or communication indicating you are allowed to cross. Therefore you are trespassing. As for going to Wal-Mart Duke Energy tried to put up a fence. Their thoughts don't get any clearer on the matter. You are trespassing unless you have something from the owner indicating that you are not. So those that go to Aldi, Wal-Mart, Lowes, or any establishment North of the Memory Care Center are trespassing. Also the only reason the villagers can still get to Wal-Mart is because it was the Developer of Stonecrest that got Duke and Wal-Mart to negotiate a solution otherwise it was a done deal to cut it off.

Also as for obstructions the gate was removed at Paradise for at least two years. This whole thing started because of the negotiations in Fruitland Park.

Also to talk about trespassing is off topic for the thread. Its about the damage to the gate. Seems to be getting a bit expensive to continue fixing this gate.

[njbchbum]

snipped

Also to talk about trespassing is off topic for the thread. Its about the damage to the gate. Seems to be getting a bit expensive to continue fixing this gate.

Oops, I was just following your lead re trespassing! Perhaps someone with a copy of the posting Mr. Brown had on the construction fences [re permission to use property once a viable route could be established] when building began will start another thread for us. My copy is at my house in TV.

And TV is being reimbursed for gate repair - so no skin off that nose!

[Steve9930]

Oops, I was just following your lead re trespassing! Perhaps someone with a copy of the posting Mr. Brown had on the construction fences [re permission to use property once a viable route could be established] when building began will start another thread for us. My copy is at my house in TV.

And TV is being reimbursed for gate repair - so no skin off that nose!
Scan it in and post it so all can see. As for my lead it was not. It started with CFrance. The re-imbursement will stop at some point or the gate will disappear just like it did a few years back. No one is going to continually keep putting money into fixing the gate.

[janmcn]

It's just a matter of time until Mr. Brown sells his property or, worse yet, passes on, so this will all become just a distant memory.

[DonH57]

Don, it looks like you and Gracie totally misunderstood my post.

I loved your post! It was obviously (to me) sarcasm. I have proposed in the past that this board should adopt a different font color for posts that are intended to be sarcasm, because there always seems to be someone who doesn't get it.

Or, was I wrong? Were you being serious when you proposed we let in everyone until our paths get so clogged that the joy of using them is gone? Did you seriously mean, "In fact let's remove the uniqueness of the villages all together." ?


.

This is a misunderstanding Carl. I quess my intention was misguided as I was only joking and I would never truly hope the villages loses it's identity. I hope most people who read my posts know I mostly joke around because some people just get to serious and personal attacks began. We picked the villages for the lifestyle.

[Carl in Tampa]

This is a misunderstanding Carl. I quess my intention was misguided as I was only joking and I would never truly hope the villages loses it's identity. I hope most people who read my posts know I mostly joke around because some people just get to serious and personal attacks began. We picked the villages for the lifestyle.

I loved your original intent. It was to show that it is possible to destroy The Villages Lifestyle if it is not protected.

Keep it up.

:ho:

[njbchbum]

Scan it in and post it so all can see. As for my lead it was not. It started with CFrance. The re-imbursement will stop at some point or the gate will disappear just like it did a few years back. No one is going to continually keep putting money into fixing the gate.

Am in NJ, Steve!!!! Can't scan it!!!! As you pointed out, it should not be scanned in because it is not about a broken/repaired gate! I guess your response to CFrance was an OOPS before my OOPS!

Hope those Stonecresters who don't already have TV gate access cards cab hold out until the gate is gone or no longer repaired!

[Steve9930]

Am in NJ, Steve!!!! Can't scan it!!!! As you pointed out, it should not be scanned in because it is not about a broken/repaired gate! I guess your response to CFrance was an OOPS before my OOPS!

Hope those Stonecresters who don't already have TV gate access cards cab hold out until the gate is gone or no longer repaired!

Going to go off topic again. The people I know that were hardcore still have to go there either got a card from their friends or bought a Street legal. Enough said there.

As I understand how the gate works I still stand by the statements that it needs to be auto-open on village exit and the loops in the ground should not let the gate close if there is a vehicle on the sensor loop. I believe this is why the gate keeps being broken because it works differently then any other gate in the system. I seriously doubt anyone is maliciously breaking the gate. I can see how people being confused and impatience can cause a problem. There are people that are so lazy that they will try and follow a vehicle through instead of waiting for the gate to cycle.

[VT2TV]

Perhaps we are getting to the point that we should request that sarcastic posts be made in bright blue so that no one misunderstands.

The point is well taken that there are still thousands of acres of undeveloped land surrounding The Villages that could be developed into housing tracts by other developers who might provide access to "The Villages Lifestyle" by paving golf cart paths to our unsecured "borders."

Now is the time to cut off all access to our multi-modal paths from the outside and declare that if you want The Villages Lifestyle you must own a home in The Villages.

As the poet Robert Frost wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors."

.


:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow: Totally agree!!!





Having The Villages off limits to golf carts that are not FROM here, when the potential for the number of them being much more than "a few hundred" is only prudent, given that 13 people in The Villages have died from golf cart accidents in the last four years.


We have yet to see the number increase for people with golf carts who will soon live here and pay to live here. (As Carl and Don have so reasonably pointed out.)


Some things are not a right. They are a privilege.




Again, totally agree!!! :bigbow::mademyday:




I am all for having easily identifiable numbers applied to all Villages carts...as long as it doesn't get to be a bureaucratic mess.



Totally agree!!!





I'm also all for having some type of ID system for golf carts. I'm confident there is a way to do it. I agree that useing a golf cart on village paths and the public streets within is a privilege Gracie.


:bigbow: Me too!!!





Yes, driving is a privilege. However, if a community permits driving a golf cart on PUBLIC roads, then the community does not have the right to stop non-members of that community from using those roads whether in a car, truck or golf cart. People really can't have their cake and eat it, too. That just doesn't work.


No one is trying to stop anyone from driving car, cart, bicycles, etc. on any public property. They are just trying to keep people from trespassing on private property. If I have property that was surrounded by roads that were paid for by the public, I have the right to deny anyone permission to drive anything from 1 public funded road, to another public funded road if it means they are going to cross my PRIVATE property. People are more than welcome to drive their cars on any public road. No one and nothing has the right to cross private property to get there.




I'm not sure why everyone believes there is this large group of people trying to use Paradise Gate. There is probably at the most 100 people that are pushing for access. Most of those that access TV now either have a card that their friends provided or have street legal carts and cross 441/27. I personally have little use for using the cart to get to Spanish Springs. I have access to all I need without going over there. If I want to go to Outback I use my auto. That's a long boring ride by cart. I used to go to Publix there but the Publix on 42 is a better store. Again that's a long ride through Paradise Gate.



I don't know that I believe that, but even if it is true, it is ridiculosis for that few people to make such of a stink for about 100 people. They want 100,000+ Villagers to have to deal with all the other communities that will want golf cart access, and the increase in MMP traffic, and having to hire more employees to monitor all the pools and public areas 24/7 so that 100 people want to drive their golf cart, when it would be much easier on them to drive their carts. Even though pools and public areas have never been much of a problem to me because I know SC and Sp Cr have their own. But not all people who would want access will have their own sports facilities, and that would be a big problem.

All this talk about putting up the wall again is only because it would help to keep tresspassers out. It would be very inconvient for Villagers to have to deal with the wall just because 100 people want access that would lead to everyone else wanting access.




In which case those people are trespassing. Another reason to have cart IDs. Anyone filmed entering that gate without a TV ID on their cart is doing so illegally.


:bigbow:




The current group is trying to get a crossing at the Hospital, not reopen the gate. The developer will have no direct say in the matter.


Won't happen-too dangerous for hospital traffic.




If that is true then everyone that goes to Aldi, Lowes, and Walmart on 441 from the villages are also trespassers. You are trespassing on private property. Sounds like a pretty Hypocritical argument to me.



As are the people fro SC and Sp Sr.

[Steve9930]

:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow: Totally agree!!!









Totally agree!!!








:bigbow: Me too!!!








No one is trying to stop anyone from driving car, cart, bicycles, etc. on any public property. They are just trying to keep people from trespassing on private property. If I have property that was surrounded by roads that were paid for by the public, I have the right to deny anyone permission to drive anything from 1 public funded road, to another public funded road if it means they are going to cross my PRIVATE property. People are more than welcome to drive their cars on any public road. No one and nothing has the right to cross private property to get there.








I don't know that I believe that, but even if it is true, it is ridiculosis for that few people to make such of a stink for about 100 people. They want 100,000+ Villagers to have to deal with all the other communities that will want golf cart access, and the increase in MMP traffic, and having to hire more employees to monitor all the pools and public areas 24/7 so that 100 people want to drive their golf cart, when it would be much easier on them to drive their carts. Even though pools and public areas have never been much of a problem to me because I know SC and Sp Cr have their own. But not all people who would want access will have their own sports facilities, and that would be a big problem.

All this talk about putting up the wall again is only because it would help to keep tresspassers out. It would be very inconvient for Villagers to have to deal with the wall just because 100 people want access that would lead to everyone else wanting access.







:bigbow:







Won't happen-too dangerous for hospital traffic.








As are the people fro SC and Sp Sr.

The crossing at the village hospital has a very good chance of being eventually approved. There is now precedence for a golf cart crossing over 441/27 with the state. The Hospital crossing is no dangerous then the one now operational at Spruce Creek.

As for a major increase in traffic from outside access there is no data to support such a conclusion.

As for why the gate keeps being broken. Its for the same reason all the others get broken. This one is worse because it works differently then 99% of the gates in TV on the output side.

[DonH57]

I loved your original intent. It was to show that it is possible to destroy The Villages Lifestyle if it is not protected.

Keep it up.

:ho:

Thanks Carl. That's what I intended to convey and could have worded it better. I did misunderstand your first response to my post leading to my misinterpretation.:coolsmiley:

[CFrance]

I'm glad you both understand each other now! I'm familiar with your posts, DonH, and I think you are supportive of TV. And Carl is very levelheaded, even when I don't agree with him!:icon_wink:

[Carl in Tampa]

No one has permission to cross the property, There has been no letter, degree, or communication indicating you are allowed to cross. Therefore you are trespassing. As for going to Wal-Mart Duke Energy tried to put up a fence. Their thoughts don't get any clearer on the matter. You are trespassing unless you have something from the owner indicating that you are not. So those that go to Aldi, Wal-Mart, Lowes, or any establishment North of the Memory Care Center are trespassing. Also the only reason the villagers can still get to Wal-Mart is because it was the Developer of Stonecrest that got Duke and Wal-Mart to negotiate a solution otherwise it was a done deal to cut it off.

Also as for obstructions the gate was removed at Paradise for at least two years. This whole thing started because of the negotiations in Fruitland Park.

Also to talk about trespassing is off topic for the thread. Its about the damage to the gate. Seems to be getting a bit expensive to continue fixing this gate.

Well, don't want to be off topic, but I feel it must be pointed out that you misunderstand Florida trespass law.

Absent a "No Trespassing" sign or being told face-to-face by the owner of the property or his authorized representative, a person cannot be charged with trespassing when on the private property of another.

In fact, if you stand in the middle of my lawn and I tell you to leave and you don't leave I can call the police. When they arrive they still can't arrest you for trespassing unless I tell you in their presence to leave and you refuse to leave.

What they can do is issue you a "Trespass Warning" so that if you are found on my property again you can be arrested without me even being present.

So, you see, people transiting across the property you are talking about are not trespassing absent a warning sign or personal warning.

Just a point of law.

:police:

[Steve9930]

Well, don't want to be off topic, but I feel it must be pointed out that you misunderstand Florida trespass law.

Absent a "No Trespassing" sign or being told face-to-face by the owner of the property or his authorized representative, a person cannot be charged with trespassing when on the private property of another.

In fact, if you stand in the middle of my lawn and I tell you to leave and you don't leave I can call the police. When they arrive they still can't arrest you for trespassing unless I tell you in their presence to leave and you refuse to leave.

What they can do is issue you a "Trespass Warning" so that if you are found on my property again you can be arrested without me even being present.

So, you see, people transiting across the property you are talking about are not trespassing absent a warning sign or personal warning.

Just a point of law.

:police:

So it would also be the same for any path in the villages. There are no signs on any path within the village limits. The argument is the same. There are no signs at the Paradise Gate so if I travel through the gate I would not be trespassing. If I travel across 441/27 and ride on the paths in the villages I would not be trespassing. Thanks for pointing that out Carl.

[getdul981]

So it would also be the same for any path in the villages. There are no signs on ny path within the village limits. The argument is the same. There are no signs at the Paradise Gate so if I travel through the gate I would not be trespassing. If I travel across 441/27 and ride on the paths in the villages I would not be trespassing. Thanks for pointing that out Carl.


The gate implies that there is no trespassing. If you don't legally have a gate pass and you go through the gate then you are trespassing. Basically, it's the same as having a door on your home. If you don't have a key and you enter, you are trespassing.

[getdul981]

The crossing at the village hospital has a very good chance of being eventually approved. There is now precedence for a golf cart crossing over 441/27 with the state. The Hospital crossing is no dangerous then the one now operational at Spruce Creek.

As for a major increase in traffic from outside access there is no data to support such a conclusion.

As for why the gate keeps being broken. Its for the same reason all the others get broken. This one is worse because it works differently then 99% of the gates in TV on the output side.

I don't think the hospital administration would allow any golf cart traffic to cross the parking lot. I hope that any lawmakers would take into consideration that any extra traffic travelling across hospital property would not be in anyone's best interest.

[chuckinca]

The street legal carts from the north cross 441/27 at Buenos Aires Blvd. If is it safe for a 25 MPH street legal cart, 35 MPH cars, pedestrians, bicycles, and 2 MPH walkers it would be safe for a 20 mph golf cart; similar to the State approved Spruce Creek South 441/27 crossing at an existing stop light.




.

[dirtbanker]

Most of those that access TV now either have a card that their friends provided

Now that is a good SC'r friend...putting his Village buddy at risk. The cards are tracked by the Villages (they know when and where the card was used), not too hard to figure out if a card is being used by a SC'r. That could be embarrassing to the Village buddy, with friends like that who needs enemies?


The current group is trying to get a crossing at the Hospital, not reopen the gate. The developer will have no direct say in the matter.

I hope "the current group" (you and ?) are successful. I doubt "the developer" wants to stop a SC'r from visiting the hospital, he just wants to keep their carts off The Village paths and retain the value he designed into his development (one of the SC shortcomings IMHO). I will assume a new gate would be erected at the hospital where The Village path access is, just to keep "the developer's" desires intact.

At that point "the current group" (you and ?) will have little left to whine about on here, thus you will have more time to enjoy your lighted pickleball courts...

[getdul981]

The street legal carts from the north cross 441/27 at Buenos Aires Blvd. If is it safe for a 25 MPH street legal cart, 35 MPH cars, pedestrians, bicycles, and 2 MPH walkers it would be safe for a 20 mph golf cart; similar to the State approved Spruce Creek South 441/27 crossing at an existing stop light.




.


Who said that any of the above was "safe"? I think it only a matter of time before someone gets severely injured or even killed while trying to cross at those locations. The speed limit for cars on 27/441 is 45 MPH and I know I have seen vehicles travelling much faster than that. I don't have any proof, but anyone that has been there knows it's the truth.

[DonH57]

Who said that any of the above was "safe"? I think it only a matter of time before someone gets severely injured or even killed while trying to cross at those locations. The speed limit for cars on 27/441 is 45 MPH and I know I have seen vehicles travelling much faster than that. I don't have any proof, but anyone that has been there knows it's the truth.

I don't know the amount of pedestrian traffic at that intersection but not including speeding automobiles I have witness several autos blow right thru a red light there. I cringe when I've seen it. I believe putting a cart crossing there would involve extra traffic control planning.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Who said that any of the above was "safe"? I think it only a matter of time before someone gets severely injured or even killed while trying to cross at those locations. The speed limit for cars on 27/441 is 45 MPH and I know I have seen vehicles travelling much faster than that. I don't have any proof, but anyone that has been there knows it's the truth.

Ummm... I believe that the Florida Highway Department has determined it to be safe. I've crossed there several times with my bicycle and it's fine. As far as cars blowing through red lights, that can happen anywhere whether you are walking, riding a bike, driving a golf cart or a car. You obviously have to take some personal responsibility and watch out for things like this.

The point is that if walkers and bicyclists can cross there and 25 mph golf carts can cross there, is it any less safe for a 19 mph golf cart to cross.

This is a pet peeve of mine. I live in Silver Lake not too far from the intersection of Griffin and 27/441. In order for me to go to CVS or Target I have to drive my golf cart a half mile down to the bridge, over the bridge, which some people claim is not safe and then a half mile back to CVS. It a lot of wasted time and energy. I can walk to CVS faster than I can get there by golf cart. All that would have to be done would be to make a little section of Griffin from LaGrande to 27/441 accessible to golf carts and then allow carts to
cross over when the light turns green. Alternatively, a path could be made behind the Circle K to the traffic light control box and allow golf carts to cross as pedestrians like I do with my bicycle.Simple and safe.

[Steve9930]

I don't think the hospital administration would allow any golf cart traffic to cross the parking lot. I hope that any lawmakers would take into consideration that any extra traffic travelling across hospital property would not be in anyone's best interest.

Golf cart or car makes no difference. I doubt the Hospital Administration will try and restrict access for those that are trying to obtain a crossing.

[Steve9930]

Now that is a good SC'r friend...putting his Village buddy at risk. The cards are tracked by the Villages (they know when and where the card was used), not too hard to figure out if a card is being used by a SC'r. That could be embarrassing to the Village buddy, with friends like that who needs enemies?




I hope "the current group" (you and ?) are successful. I doubt "the developer" wants to stop a SC'r from visiting the hospital, he just wants to keep their carts off The Village paths and retain the value he designed into his development (one of the SC shortcomings IMHO). I will assume a new gate would be erected at the hospital where The Village path access is, just to keep "the developer's" desires intact.

At that point "the current group" (you and ?) will have little left to whine about on here, thus you will have more time to enjoy your lighted pickleball courts...

Now there's a screen name that fits ones personality.

[Steve9930]

The gate implies that there is no trespassing. If you don't legally have a gate pass and you go through the gate then you are trespassing. Basically, it's the same as having a door on your home. If you don't have a key and you enter, you are trespassing.

That may or may not be true but it would only apply to that piece of property. I believe it must be specifically posted. The problem is the gate keeps getting broken.

[Steve9930]

Ummm... I believe that the Florida Highway Department has determined it to be safe. I've crossed there several times with my bicycle and it's fine. As far as cars blowing through red lights, that can happen anywhere whether you are walking, riding a bike, driving a golf cart or a car. You obviously have to take some personal responsibility and watch out for things like this.

The point is that if walkers and bicyclists can cross there and 25 mph golf carts can cross there, is it any less safe for a 19 mph golf cart to cross.

This is a pet peeve of mine. I live in Silver Lake not too far from the intersection of Griffin and 27/441. In order for me to go to CVS or Target I have to drive my golf cart a half mile down to the bridge, over the bridge, which some people claim is not safe and then a half mile back to CVS. It a lot of wasted time and energy. I can walk to CVS faster than I can get there by golf cart. All that would have to be done would be to make a little section of Griffin from LaGrande to 27/441 accessible to golf carts and then allow carts to
cross over when the light turns green. Alternatively, a path could be made behind the Circle K to the traffic light control box and allow golf carts to cross as pedestrians like I do with my bicycle.Simple and safe.

Sounds like a plan to me. I also have wondered why you can cross with a vehicle that structurally is identical to a vehicle that is banned from crossing. The only real difference is it can travel up to 6 MPH faster and has a few lap belts installed.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

That may or may not be true but it would only apply to that piece of property. I believe it must be specifically posted. The problem is the gate keeps getting broken.

The specific piece of property that we're discussing is a house lot that, if I'm not mistaken, was owned by the developer. I believe that ownership was transferred to the ccd. Since it is privately owned, the owners have a right to say who is and who is not allowed to use it.
The owners have decided that this lot may only be used by Villages residents to access the area on the other side. The owners of the property on the other side have decided to allow anyone in a golf cart to drive on their property.
I may have to be specifically posted, but I think that the gate pretty much implies what a sign would say.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Sounds like a plan to me. I also have wondered why you can cross with a vehicle that structurally is identical to a vehicle that is banned from crossing. The only real difference is it can travel up to 6 MPH faster and has a few lap belts installed.

I think that part of the issue might be is that they areas leading up to the intersections are not golf cart accessible or golf cart approved areas. There are "No Golf Carts Beyond this Point" signs posted at the gates making it impossible to legally get to the intersection.

[Steve9930]

I think that part of the issue might be is that they areas leading up to the intersections are not golf cart accessible or golf cart approved areas. There are "No Golf Carts Beyond this Point" signs posted at the gates making it impossible to legally get to the intersection.

The discussion was not about a sign but about vehicles that are structurally identical yet treated differently. All a municipality has to do to allow a crossing is post the proper signage. A street legal cart can be used legally yet a golf cart cannot. That was what the original post was frustrated about.

[Carl in Tampa]

So it would also be the same for any path in the villages. There are no signs on any path within the village limits. The argument is the same. There are no signs at the Paradise Gate so if I travel through the gate I would not be trespassing. If I travel across 441/27 and ride on the paths in the villages I would not be trespassing. Thanks for pointing that out Carl.

Well, no. I gave the reference to the Florida Statute in my post. You might want to read it. I would hate for you to mistakenly rely on what I posted, which was not legal advice, and get in trouble.

A no trespassing sign or personal notice is not required to forbid unauthorized access to the property if it is protected by posting, fencing, or cultivation. If you drive through the gate you can be regarded as a trespasser.

You also face the possibility of arrest and presumption of guilt of having violated the prohibition of bypassing fencing (the gate) if it demonstrable that there is no legal access to the area from the outside.

You might also be on video gaining illegal access to the area, either at the gate or illegally crossing the highway. There are cameras everywhere.

------------------

Perhaps you have driven through the development and seen the signs that say, "Speed Limit 20 mph unless otherwise posted." This generic sign could easily be duplicated to say "No trespassing on multi-modal paths." It wouldn't be necessary to post every individual path.

I have also noticed some sentiment in the postings for TV registration of golf carts, with an identifying sticker. A notice could be posted to prohibit any unregistered golf cart in TV.

Or alternatively a sign could be posted to prohibit use of the MMPs by anyone who is not a resident or guest of a resident of TV.

There are several methods of identifying and apprehending trespassers.

All the Developer needs is motivation; the technology exists.

:police:

[Steve9930]

The specific piece of property that we're discussing is a house lot that, if I'm not mistaken, was owned by the developer. I believe that ownership was transferred to the ccd. Since it is privately owned, the owners have a right to say who is and who is not allowed to use it.
The owners have decided that this lot may only be used by Villages residents to access the area on the other side. The owners of the property on the other side have decided to allow anyone in a golf cart to drive on their property.
I may have to be specifically posted, but I think that the gate pretty much implies what a sign would say.

Yes it was a house lot that was designated for a Golf cart access point. With the gate now in place it is obvious the access is to be restricted over that piece of property. No one has ever said otherwise. It is also obvious their is a maintenance problem with the gate. As I indicated earlier if they would change the design to conform to the normal it just might save you some maintenance cost. But if someone wants to spend money unnecessarily as long as its not mine, knock yourself out.

Now anyone who crosses that piece of property without an invitation by a village property owner is trespassing. So those that have been invited by their friends that live in TV to enter or given access are not trespassing. Those that where invited by their friends are not trespassing because they where given permission by one of the land owners to cross the property. The original land owner has relinquished his interest on the property and transferred it to the district therefore putting it under the authority of the district or in short the land owners of the common property of the people that live in the villages.

[Steve9930]

Well, no. I gave the reference to the Florida Statute in my post. You might want to read it. I would hate for you to mistakenly rely on what I posted, which was not legal advice, and get in trouble.

A no trespassing sign or personal notice is not required to forbid unauthorized access to the property if it is protected by posting, fencing, or cultivation. If you drive through the gate you can be regarded as a trespasser.

You also face the possibility of arrest and presumption of guilt of having violated the prohibition of bypassing fencing (the gate) if it demonstrable that there is no legal access to the area from the outside.

You might also be on video gaining illegal access to the area, either at the gate or illegally crossing the highway. There are cameras everywhere.



------------------

Perhaps you have driven through the development and seen the signs that say, "Speed Limit 20 mph unless otherwise posted." This generic sign could easily be duplicated to say "No trespassing on multi-modal paths." It wouldn't be necessary to post every individual path.

I have also noticed some sentiment in the postings for TV registration of golf carts, with an identifying sticker. A notice could be posted to prohibit any unregistered golf cart in TV.

Or alternatively a sign could be posted to prohibit use of the MMPs by anyone who is not a resident or guest of a resident of TV.

There are several methods of identifying and apprehending trespassers.

All the Developer needs is motivation; the technology exists.

:police:

No sign is necessary to be considered trespassing in Florida. It is also not necessary to have anything that restricts access to the property to be trespassing . Under definition of the trespassing law in Florida the act of crossing or abiding on private property is trespassing. Under that definition crossing Mr. Browns's property is trespassing. To be convicted it must be proved you entered said property with intent to trespass. Those that would circumnavigate the gate would be doing such an act. Your better off without the no trespassing sign because if you use signage at the entrance you will have to prove the sign conformed to regulations defining the signage.

You could not post a sign at the gate and cover the entire villages. The other cravat is all I need to have is permission from a friend in the villages to enter and I would not be trespassing because I have permission from an owner. You should look at the regulations when you have multiple property owners. This is one reason you could never enforce any trespassing on the paths.

Anyway enough said about trespassing. If you do not change the way the gate operates it will be broken again.

[DonH57]

Some posters have mentioned a Mr. Brown and his property during the gate discussion. Where exactly is this property?

[Carl in Tampa]

No sign is necessary to be considered trespassing in Florida. It is also not necessary to have anything that restricts access to the property to be trespassing . Under definition of the trespassing law in Florida the act of crossing or abiding on private property is trespassing. Under that definition crossing Mr. Browns's property is trespassing. To be convicted it must be proved you entered said property with intent to trespass. Those that would circumnavigate the gate would be doing such an act. Your better off without the no trespassing sign because if you use signage at the entrance you will have to prove the sign conformed to regulations defining the signage.

You could not post a sign at the gate and cover the entire villages. The other cravat is all I need to have is permission from a friend in the villages to enter and I would not be trespassing because I have permission from an owner. You should look at the regulations when you have multiple property owners. This is one reason you could never enforce any trespassing on the paths.

Anyway enough said about trespassing. If you do not change the way the gate operates it will be broken again.

Steve, I'm afraid you haven't really digested the content of the statute.

1. Rather than quoting and disproving your assertions, I'll simply append this note with the principal elements of the law.

2. Individual homeowners in TV do not have the authority to authorize or deny outsiders access to the private property controlled by the Community Development Districts. They do not own the property; the property is funded by taxes that they were charged by the CDD, Florida CDD law specifically states that CDDs may own real and personal property. (Real = real estate.)

Each CDD is administered by a Board of Supervisors that controls the areas funded by taxes on the residents in the CDD. Under Florida law CDDs exist for the purpose of funding and managing the infrastructure of the community.

------------------------------

810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or
2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass,


.

[Steve9930]

Some posters have mentioned a Mr. Brown and his property during the gate discussion. Where exactly is this property?

You can see the property on the Sumter Property WEB sight using GIS but to answer your question. Mr. Browns Property is all the property North of the new Harbor Chase, behind the business on 441/27, and up to the road next to Lowes. Mr. Brown owns all that property.

The other piece of property that people cross across is the property between Aldis and Wal-Mart. It is owned by Duke Energy. Duke Energy was going to fence it off and stop the cart traffic after they received two bills for Golf Cart damage that was done on their property while going to Wal-Mart. Fortunately they so far have not followed through with the change. Wal-Mart and Duke are still hashing it over.

[Steve9930]

Steve, I'm afraid you haven't really digested the content of the statute.

1. Rather than quoting and disproving your assertions, I'll simply append this note with the principal elements of the law.

2. Individual homeowners in TV do not have the authority to authorize or deny outsiders access to the private property controlled by the Community Development Districts. They do not own the property; the property is funded by taxes that they were charged by the CDD, Florida CDD law specifically states that CDDs may own real and personal property. (Real = real estate.)

Each CDD is administered by a Board of Supervisors that controls the areas funded by taxes on the residents in the CDD. Under Florida law CDDs exist for the purpose of funding and managing the infrastructure of the community.

------------------------------

810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or
2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass,


.

Read this. Florida Crimes: Trespass on Property (http://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes/trespass/property.html#Defenses)

Home owners would have the authority to grant access to TV to their friends.

[NoMoSno]

It will be interesting to see what will become of Mr.Browns path.
Heavy equipment, used to build the assisted living center, would keep it smooth, until the wall/gate was erected.
Now that heavy equipment is gone. The path is deteriorating quickly.
Mr Brown shouldn't foot bill for repairs. Mr. Morse could care less about that path.
Within a couple years that path will become nearly impassible.
Maybe the advertiser, along the path could contribute?

[Steve9930]

It will be interesting to see what will become of Mr.Browns path.
Heavy equipment, used to build the assisted living center, would keep it smooth, until the wall/gate was erected.
Now that heavy equipment is gone. The path is deteriorating quickly.
Mr Brown shouldn't foot bill for repairs. Mr. Morse could care less about that path.
Within a couple years that path will become nearly impassible.
Maybe the advertiser, along the path could contribute?

I do not see either path ever being improved. Once you would construct some sort of good path way you would open up a liability issue. So everyone is just turning a blind eye. I know one thing if Duke ever gets a bill for cart damage you can kiss the access by cart to Wal-Mart goodbye.

[NoMoSno]

I do not see either path ever being improved. Once you would construct some sort of good path way you would open up a liability issue. So everyone is just turning a blind eye. I know one thing if Duke ever gets a bill for cart damage you can kiss the access by cart to Wal-Mart goodbye.

I agree...

[Carl in Tampa]

Read this. Florida Crimes: Trespass on Property (http://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes/trespass/property.html#Defenses)

Home owners would have the authority to grant access to TV to their friends.

Sorry Steve, a reference about trespass defenses from a defense attorney soliciting business doesn't pass muster. You can reach out and find similar ads from lawyers who will claim they can get you off from a DUI under certain circumstances.

Homeowner's friends don't need permission to have access to The Villages. It is an open community. However, the CDDs own and manage the infrastructure and homeowners do not have the authority to contradict the management of the CDDs.

Homeowners don't own the infrastructure. They just pay the taxes to allow the CDD Board of Supervisors to own and maintain it.

:read:

[TVMayor]

Oh boy, 143 post, sooo much information, let me see if I understand. The gate was damaged it will be fixed and nothing will change. That’s my understanding of the information posted.

[Steve9930]

Sorry Steve, a reference about trespass defenses from a defense attorney soliciting business doesn't pass muster. You can reach out and find similar ads from lawyers who will claim they can get you off from a DUI under certain circumstances.

Homeowner's friends don't need permission to have access to The Villages. It is an open community. However, the CDDs own and manage the infrastructure and homeowners do not have the authority to contradict the management of the CDDs.

Homeowners don't own the infrastructure. They just pay the taxes to allow the CDD Board of Supervisors to own and maintain it.

:read:

Well Carl he is one of the best in the business and has an excellent track record. The practical part of the equation is no one will ever be charged with trespassing while using the cart paths and there would never be a prosecution of someone that entered the villages via card access or not invited by another villager to enter.

I have given you some suggestions as to how you can fix your gate problem. They can implement them or not. Its not my money being wasted.

[Steve9930]

Oh boy, 143 post, sooo much information, let me see if I understand. The gate was damaged it will be fixed and nothing will change. That’s my understanding of the information posted.

You should have posted earlier and saved me a bunch of typing.....:plane:

[CFrance]

My guess would be that you have maybe hundreds who use the gate, not thousands. A drop in the bucket when you consider the combined number of residents living in all three communities. I still don't see the big deal. Yes, The Villages has the legal right to close off access, but morally, I think the Villages is being a bad neighbor in this situation.

In the light that there have been 13 deaths from golf cart accidents in the last four years within our borders...and the potential for a couple thousand MORE golf carts on our paths from the residents of those communities, I think it is a wise and prudent decision. But as you know I am annoying usually FOR The Villages and the developer. He appears to know how to make wise decisions.

Another attack for simply stating one's opinion. How tiresome and petty. Because one does not agree with a decision by the Developer, does not mean one is "against" The Villages. Such logic. Not.

Actually, I don't see Gracie's post as an attack at all. You stated your opinion, she stated hers. You both prefaced it with "I think." In light of that, your last post is out of line, and I would consider that to be the only attack of the three posts.

I'll add my opinion. "I think" that those of us who pay for the construction and maintenance of the paths should be the only ones allowed to use it. Everybody else made their choice when they bought their homes.

[Cisco Kid]

Actually, I don't see Gracie's post as an attack at all. You stated your opinion, she stated hers. You both prefaced it with "I think." In light of that, your last post is out of line, and I would consider that to be the only attack of the three posts.

I'll add my opinion. "I think" that those of us who pay for the construction and maintenance of the paths should be the only ones allowed to use it. Everybody else made their choice when they bought their homes.

If that was an ATTACT, the dude has a hard life.

[linko38]

I have lived in wonderful Stonecrest for over five years. We were always allowed into the Villages by golf cart until the gate went up. As far as I know there was not utter Chaos and Mass hysteria because a few carts crossed their paths. We did this only on a few occasions. Not all residents own golf carts so your figures are way off. Drive through Stonecrest someday and you will see how small and peaceful we are as a community. It was much quicker to get through without the gate. I think this is why its broken often. We experience the same thing here. Retirees to impatient to wait for a gate to open fully. This is all utter nonsense. Sounds like the Hatfields and McCoys!

[DonH57]

I agree...
I agree as well. I was surprised they have not before. I came thru there last year during rainy season and the no trepass signs Duke had up were down and you could see the cart tracks cutting behind the sub station fence from carts trying to avoid to normal trail due to deep puddles. I thought to myself " this will be closed up soon".

[DonH57]

You can see the property on the Sumter Property WEB sight using GIS but to answer your question. Mr. Browns Property is all the property North of the new Harbor Chase, behind the business on 441/27, and up to the road next to Lowes. Mr. Brown owns all that property.

The other piece of property that people cross across is the property between Aldis and Wal-Mart. It is owned by Duke Energy. Duke Energy was going to fence it off and stop the cart traffic after they received two bills for Golf Cart damage that was done on their property while going to Wal-Mart. Fortunately they so far have not followed through with the change. Wal-Mart and Duke are still hashing it over.

OK. Thanks Steve.

[CFrance]

I have lived in wonderful Stonecrest for over five years. We were always allowed into the Villages by golf cart until the gate went up. As far as I know there was not utter Chaos and Mass hysteria because a few carts crossed their paths. We did this only on a few occasions. Not all residents own golf carts so your figures are way off. Drive through Stonecrest someday and you will see how small and peaceful we are as a community. It was much quicker to get through without the gate. I think this is why its broken often. We experience the same thing here. Retirees to impatient to wait for a gate to open fully. This is all utter nonsense. Sounds like the Hatfields and McCoys!
I certainly hope not. That started over a stolen pig and ended up in murder. The only similarity is the beginning, where one wanted what the other owned.

[Steve9930]

I agree as well. I was surprised they have not before. I came thru there last year during rainy season and the no trepass signs Duke had up were down and you could see the cart tracks cutting behind the sub station fence from carts trying to avoid to normal trail due to deep puddles. I thought to myself " this will be closed up soon".

Before I left for Ohio I had seen where they had moved the sign in the center of the new path people were trying to make behind the sub-station. I don't care about Paradise Gate but if Duke Energy cuts the access off then I loose cart access to everything South up to Paradise Gate. If that happens there are going to be many people upset, including me.

[Carl in Tampa]

Well Carl he is one of the best in the business and has an excellent track record. The practical part of the equation is no one will ever be charged with trespassing while using the cart paths and there would never be a prosecution of someone that entered the villages via card access or not invited by another villager to enter.

I have given you some suggestions as to how you can fix your gate problem. They can implement them or not. Its not my money being wasted.

1. That defense attorney doesn't work for free. Even clients who "win" end up losing money.

2. The "exit" gate for The Villages homeowners must involve use of their card. An exit gate that works by magnetic fields or other means can be easily opened by someone wanting to enter illegally.

If damaging the gate becomes a major problem the CDD can hire an off-duty officer for surveillace, and very possibly apprehend someone committing a criminal act.

As I've said before, the technology exists; only motivation to act is required.

:police::police::police:

[Steve9930]

1. That defense attorney doesn't work for free. Even clients who "win" end up losing money.

2. The "exit" gate for The Villages homeowners must involve use of their card. An exit gate that works by magnetic fields or other means can be easily opened by someone wanting to enter illegally.

If damaging the gate becomes a major problem the CDD can hire an off-duty officer for surveillace, and very possibly apprehend someone committing a criminal act.

As I've said before, the technology exists; only motivation to act is required.

:police::police::police:

You could hire a guard at the gate and pay even more money needlessly. What are you trying to protect? As for the system you have there it is easily hacked and no one will know its hacked. The normal design of exit gates usually is done on an automatic sensor loop. The loop provides a safety factor for the person exiting and protection for the gate. There is also a sensor loop normally on the incoming side that is programmed to protect the gate and the individual but requires access verification for entry. These are the best practice engineering principles for these types of control system. So they can do as they please but until you fix the programing control on this gate it will continue to be broken over and over again. There should also be torque control on this gate. This is a system that monitors the torque on the closing mechanism and will reverse the gate in the event of an object in the path of the gate as it closes. If these controls are not implemented and someone is hurt by the gate you will loose the law suit. As you speak from experience in law enforcement, mine comes from over 40 years of engineering control systems.

[Carl in Tampa]

You could hire a guard at the gate and pay even more money needlessly. What are you trying to protect? As for the system you have there it is easily hacked and no one will know its hacked. The normal design of exit gates usually is done on an automatic sensor loop. The loop provides a safety factor for the person exiting and protection for the gate. There is also a sensor loop normally on the incoming side that is programmed to protect the gate and the individual but requires access verification for entry. These are the best practice engineering principles for these types of control system. So they can do as they please but until you fix the programing control on this gate it will continue to be broken over and over again. There should also be torque control on this gate. This is a system that monitors the torque on the closing mechanism and will reverse the gate in the event of an object in the path of the gate as it closes. If these controls are not implemented and someone is hurt by the gate you will loose the law suit. As you speak from experience in law enforcement, mine comes from over 40 years of engineering control systems.

We are approaching the issue from different perspectives. You are assuming that the damage to the gate has been accidental. I, along (I believe) with Gracie and others, am assuming that damage to the gate has been vandalism committed by outsiders who resent the gate.

I did not suggest a gate guard, but rather a concealed law enforcement officer who would be prepared to make a criminal arrest in the case of deliberate vandalism.

After a couple of people get locked up for criminal mischief it is likely that damage to the gates will cease.

What is being protected is private property (the gate) and a unique lifestyle (The Village Lifestyle experience.)

I continue to be amazed by the inappropriate sense of entitlement by outsiders to use infrastructure which was not financed by them and which was not intended for their use.

:police:

[CFrance]

We are approaching the issue from different perspectives. You are assuming that the damage to the gate has been accidental. I, along (I believe) with Gracie and others, am assuming that damage to the gate has been vandalism committed by outsiders who resent the gate.

I did not suggest a gate guard, but rather a concealed law enforcement officer who would be prepared to make a criminal arrest in the case of deliberate vandalism.

After a couple of people get locked up for criminal mischief it is likely that damage to the gates will cease.

What is being protected is private property (the gate) and a unique lifestyle (The Village Lifestyle experience.)

I continue to be amazed by the inappropriate sense of entitlement by outsiders to use infrastructure which was not financed by them and which was not intended for their use.

:police:
:BigApplause::BigApplause:

[mickey100]

You could hire a guard at the gate and pay even more money needlessly. What are you trying to protect? As for the system you have there it is easily hacked and no one will know its hacked. The normal design of exit gates usually is done on an automatic sensor loop. The loop provides a safety factor for the person exiting and protection for the gate. There is also a sensor loop normally on the incoming side that is programmed to protect the gate and the individual but requires access verification for entry. These are the best practice engineering principles for these types of control system. So they can do as they please but until you fix the programing control on this gate it will continue to be broken over and over again. There should also be torque control on this gate. This is a system that monitors the torque on the closing mechanism and will reverse the gate in the event of an object in the path of the gate as it closes. If these controls are not implemented and someone is hurt by the gate you will loose the law suit. As you speak from experience in law enforcement, mine comes from over 40 years of engineering control systems.

:BigApplause:

[graciegirl]

We are approaching the issue from different perspectives. You are assuming that the damage to the gate has been accidental. I, along (I believe) with Gracie and others, am assuming that damage to the gate has been vandalism committed by outsiders who resent the gate.

I did not suggest a gate guard, but rather a concealed law enforcement officer who would be prepared to make a criminal arrest in the case of deliberate vandalism.

After a couple of people get locked up for criminal mischief it is likely that damage to the gates will cease.

What is being protected is private property (the gate) and a unique lifestyle (The Village Lifestyle experience.)

I continue to be amazed by the inappropriate sense of entitlement by outsiders to use infrastructure which was not financed by them and which was not intended for their use.

:police:




Excellent post. I wonder who is the most inflamed about all this? Who are the most vocal in opposition to this gate? Who would do something to hurt the villages and the developer? Who is almost obsessed with this issue? I see a DUCK walking. I think it is clear by the posts who thinks what.

[dirtbanker]

I have lived in wonderful Stonecrest for over five years. We were always allowed into the Villages by golf cart until the gate went up. As far as I know...This is all utter nonsense...

If it was so wonderful why are you upset that you no longer have access to The Villages? Sell your place in SC and move to The Villages, you can have unlimited access to all the amenities, after all you will be paying for them (at that point you might change your tune about outsiders using what you pay for though).

http://comicstheblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/movin-on-up.jpg

You could hire a guard at the gate and pay even more money needlessly. What are you trying to protect? .

Interesting statement there, leaves me wondering what SC'rs are protecting behind their guarded gates? I assume there is not much more than lighted pickleball courts, a retention pond, and one clubhouse pool (if there was much to do there, you would not be on here whining about access thru The Village gate). Why did you buy in SC if you wanted all the amenities of The Villages? The price? hmmm...

http://img2-1.timeinc.net/toh/i/g/11/fixes/06-cheapskate/01-hall-of-fame.jpg

Is there no TOSC forum? :22yikes:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The discussion was not about a sign but about vehicles that are structurally identical yet treated differently. All a municipality has to do to allow a crossing is post the proper signage. A street legal cart can be used legally yet a golf cart cannot. That was what the original post was frustrated about.

That may be true for several of the gates, but the problem with carts crossing at Griffin and Avenida Central is that carts are not allowed out on to Griffin because, I believe that the speed limit there is too high for golf carts. It's not about crossing the intersection, it's about being able to get to where one can cross the intersection.

[Steve9930]

That may be true for several of the gates, but the problem with carts crossing at Griffin and Avenida Central is that carts are not allowed out on to Griffin because, I believe that the speed limit there is too high for golf carts. It's not about crossing the intersection, it's about being able to get to where one can cross the intersection.

I agree with you it is about crossing the intersection. But look at it this way if I buy a street legal cart I can cross, if I have a Golf Cart I cannot. What is the difference structurally between these two vehicles?

[BobnBev]

We are approaching the issue from different perspectives. You are assuming that the damage to the gate has been accidental. I, along (I believe) with Gracie and others, am assuming that damage to the gate has been vandalism committed by outsiders who resent the gate.

I did not suggest a gate guard, but rather a concealed law enforcement officer who would be prepared to make a criminal arrest in the case of deliberate vandalism.

After a couple of people get locked up for criminal mischief it is likely that damage to the gates will cease.

What is being protected is private property (the gate) and a unique lifestyle (The Village Lifestyle experience.)

I continue to be amazed by the inappropriate sense of entitlement by outsiders to use infrastructure which was not financed by them and which was not intended for their use.

:police:

Carl, after so many years in law enforcement, I'm surprised you are amazed with anything!:highfive::highfive:

[graciegirl]

Carl, after so many years in law enforcement, I'm surprised you are amazed with anything!:highfive::highfive:



I think he expected grown up behavior when he got to this nice place.