Apologists

[senior citizen]

Very often some of the debaters on this forum remind me of Roman Catholic "apologists" such as one cousin we have in N.J. who totally denies any clergy abuse of children ever occurred. She totally believes the kids were all making it up. Now, we were all raised Roman Catholic, however, after reading dozens of books....many written by priests themselves who had left their orders during the height of the scandal, any intelligent person can only come to the conclusion that it did happen......based on the recollections of what went on in the seminaries....who looked the other way, how these pedophile priests got away with it all, by befriending fatherless boys.......not just in our country, but in Europe, Mexico and elsewhere..........

The Boston Globe did great investigative work on their "local cases" and guess where many of those pedophile priests were sent? To Vermont of course. This state is often misrepresented as a bunch of yokels, when in fact, it is comprised of a myriad of creative, free thinking, intelligent people.....who have clear insight into what really is going on in a given situation .

Unless one has their head in the sand, there is some truth to every rumor or innuendo. Apologists will deny everything and anything that has a sordid root. When we read this in the newspaper earlier June.......I couldn't believe this guy. See below:

""Archbishop Robert J. Carlson claimed to be uncertain that he knew sexual abuse of a child by a priest constituted a crime when he was auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, according to a deposition released Monday (June 9).

During the deposition taken last month, attorney Jeff Anderson asked Carlson whether he knew it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child.

"I’m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not," Carlson replied. "I understand today it’s a crime."

Anderson went on to ask Carlson whether he knew in 1984, when he was an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, that it was crime for a priest to engage in sex with a child.

"I’m not sure if I did or didn’t," Carlson said.

Yet according to documents released Monday (June 9) by the law firm Jeff Anderson & Associates in St. Paul, Carlson showed clear knowledge that sexual abuse was a crime when discussing incidents with church officials during his time in Minnesota.

In a 1984 document, for example, Carlson wrote to the then-archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis — John R. Roach — about one victim of sexual abuse and mentioned that the statute of limitations for filing a claim would not expire for more than two years. He also wrote that the parents of the victim were considering reporting the incident to the police.""

******************

It's the same thing with the tidbits read in "Leisureville" or else intuitively "felt" within a certain atmosphere of a place..........very difficult to believe that it is not going on.............no matter what all the apologists claim.

To each his own, but truly, they should keep it private. Even T.O.T.V. was advertising a motel room with a pole dancing pole........picture of it right next to the bed............I reported that and whoosh, it disappeared. Kind of suspicious goings on. It was a very very shabby looking motel room.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it all out. Obviously society has changed since we were "courting" however, people shouldn't flaunt their private lives in the squares.........and just maybe shouldn't become inebriated in the squares.


P.S. MANY THANKS TO ALL THOSE WHO P.M.'D ME.........APPRECIATE IT.








　

[CFrance]

Very often some of the debaters on this forum remind me of Roman Catholic "apologists" such as one cousin we have in N.J. who totally denies any clergy abuse of children ever occurred. She totally believes the kids were all making it up. Now, we were all raised Roman Catholic, however, after reading dozens of books....many written by priests themselves who had left their orders during the height of the scandal, any intelligent person can only come to the conclusion that it did happen......based on the recollections of what went on in the seminaries....who looked the other way, how these pedophile priests got away with it all, by befriending fatherless boys.......not just in our country, but in Europe, Mexico and elsewhere..........

The Boston Globe did great investigative work on their "local cases" and guess where many of those pedophile priests were sent? To Vermont of course. This state is often misrepresented as a bunch of yokels, when in fact, it is comprised of a myriad of creative, free thinking, intelligent people.....who have clear insight into what really is going on in a given situation .

Unless one has their head in the sand, there is some truth to every rumor or innuendo. Apologists will deny everything and anything that has a sordid root. When we read this in the newspaper earlier June.......I couldn't believe this guy. See below:

""Archbishop Robert J. Carlson claimed to be uncertain that he knew sexual abuse of a child by a priest constituted a crime when he was auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, according to a deposition released Monday (June 9).

During the deposition taken last month, attorney Jeff Anderson asked Carlson whether he knew it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child.

"I�m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not," Carlson replied. "I understand today it�s a crime."

Anderson went on to ask Carlson whether he knew in 1984, when he was an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, that it was crime for a priest to engage in sex with a child.

"I�m not sure if I did or didn�t," Carlson said.

Yet according to documents released Monday (June 9) by the law firm Jeff Anderson & Associates in St. Paul, Carlson showed clear knowledge that sexual abuse was a crime when discussing incidents with church officials during his time in Minnesota.

In a 1984 document, for example, Carlson wrote to the then-archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis � John R. Roach � about one victim of sexual abuse and mentioned that the statute of limitations for filing a claim would not expire for more than two years. He also wrote that the parents of the victim were considering reporting the incident to the police.""

******************

It's the same thing with the tidbits read in "Leisureville" or else intuitively "felt" within a certain atmosphere of a place..........very difficult to believe that it is not going on.............no matter what all the apologists claim.

To each his own, but truly, they should keep it private. Even T.O.T.V. was advertising a motel room with a pole dancing pole........picture of it right next to the bed............I reported that and whoosh, it disappeared. Kind of suspicious goings on. It was a very very shabby looking motel room.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it all out. Obviously society has changed since we were "courting" however, people shouldn't flaunt their private lives in the squares.........and just maybe shouldn't become inebriated in the squares.


P.S. MANY THANKS TO ALL THOSE WHO P.M.'D ME.........APPRECIATE IT.








　

I believe you are confusing apologists with people who were reacting to unfair assumptions being made about the people living in the foreclosed house--assumptions that have since been proven to be untrue. You can't "suggest," in any way shape, or form, that people are hoarders, or anything else about them, when you haven't been there. Even the people who have been in the house have not said that.

[Peachie]

Very often some of the debaters on this forum remind me of Roman Catholic "apologists" such as one cousin we have in N.J. who totally denies any clergy abuse of children ever occurred. She totally believes the kids were all making it up. Now, we were all raised Roman Catholic, however, after reading dozens of books....many written by priests themselves who had left their orders during the height of the scandal, any intelligent person can only come to the conclusion that it did happen......based on the recollections of what went on in the seminaries....who looked the other way, how these pedophile priests got away with it all, by befriending fatherless boys.......not just in our country, but in Europe, Mexico and elsewhere..........

The Boston Globe did great investigative work on their "local cases" and guess where many of those pedophile priests were sent? To Vermont of course. This state is often misrepresented as a bunch of yokels, when in fact, it is comprised of a myriad of creative, free thinking, intelligent people.....who have clear insight into what really is going on in a given situation .

Unless one has their head in the sand, there is some truth to every rumor or innuendo. Apologists will deny everything and anything that has a sordid root. When we read this in the newspaper earlier June.......I couldn't believe this guy. See below:

""Archbishop Robert J. Carlson claimed to be uncertain that he knew sexual abuse of a child by a priest constituted a crime when he was auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, according to a deposition released Monday (June 9).

During the deposition taken last month, attorney Jeff Anderson asked Carlson whether he knew it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child.

"I’m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not," Carlson replied. "I understand today it’s a crime."

Anderson went on to ask Carlson whether he knew in 1984, when he was an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, that it was crime for a priest to engage in sex with a child.

"I’m not sure if I did or didn’t," Carlson said.

Yet according to documents released Monday (June 9) by the law firm Jeff Anderson & Associates in St. Paul, Carlson showed clear knowledge that sexual abuse was a crime when discussing incidents with church officials during his time in Minnesota.

In a 1984 document, for example, Carlson wrote to the then-archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis — John R. Roach — about one victim of sexual abuse and mentioned that the statute of limitations for filing a claim would not expire for more than two years. He also wrote that the parents of the victim were considering reporting the incident to the police.""

******************

It's the same thing with the tidbits read in "Leisureville" or else intuitively "felt" within a certain atmosphere of a place..........very difficult to believe that it is not going on.............no matter what all the apologists claim.

To each his own, but truly, they should keep it private. Even T.O.T.V. was advertising a motel room with a pole dancing pole........picture of it right next to the bed............I reported that and whoosh, it disappeared. Kind of suspicious goings on. It was a very very shabby looking motel room.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it all out. Obviously society has changed since we were "courting" however, people shouldn't flaunt their private lives in the squares.........and just maybe shouldn't become inebriated in the squares.


P.S. MANY THANKS TO ALL THOSE WHO P.M.'D ME.........APPRECIATE IT.








　


The apologists for The Villages may be comparable to the apologists for the state of Vermont with it's major drug issues currently bombarding the state. I believe it was stated in another thread that Vermont is now currently trying to gloss over it's issues with sleek ads to persuade people to visit or live there.

Many of us have visited Vermont and have a "been there, done that" attitude; a travel destination to see but not at all interested in living there. The ads for the state of Vermont are necessary to try to convince people to like Vermont, apparently, or the state wouldn't be wasting their money on these ads. Vermont does not mention the drug issues in their sleek ads.

[Polar Bear]

I'm really not sure what you are referring to as TV "apologists", but comparing them to a situation involving child abuse seems extreme.

If you're speaking of those who make excuses for things wrong in TV, I've always figured they were simply people who are happy to live in TV...even with its flaws.

[Taltarzac725]

I'm really not sure what you are referring to as TV "apologists", but comparing them to a situation involving child abuse seems extreme.

If you're speaking of those who make excuses for things wrong in TV, I've always figured they were simply people who are happy to live in TV...even with its flaws.

I agree. Of course, there is some truth to the picture painted by Andrew Blechman in Leisureville but he was only here two weeks or so back around the end of 2005 when King Kong was playing. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/king_kong/ There are swingers in the Villages like Mr. Midnight but he probably represents one in a thousand or even less than that.

The Catholic Church sexual scandal was attempted cover-ups by the very powerful to protect an image. I really do not see anyone trying to cover up the incident on the stage at Sumter Landing with the pair of exhibitionist adulterers nor the existence of Mr. Midnight just that these are not accurate depictions of the life of most in the Villages. Of course, most priests did not commit child abuse but the Morses are not moving Mr. Midnight around the Villages like some pea in a pod like some Catholic Church leaders did with abusive priests.

[Lauren Sweeny]

Back I the day , I would have responded to these post with, " Heavy man ! " or " Lighten up" Now I do appreciate adult discussion in a civilized manner. My opinion, both sexual incidents described above are morally wrong ,( by most standards of behavior.)

[manaboutown]

IMHO, I do not see any legitimate comparison between a pedophile taking advantage of his position as a priest to sexually assault boys or girls and two consenting adults, drunk or sober, letting a public display of affection (PDA) get out of hand. The only commonality is that some form of sexual act is involved.

[Bogie Shooter]

IMHO, I do not see any legitimate comparison between a pedophile taking advantage of his position as a priest to sexually assault boys or girls and two consenting adults, drunk or sober, letting a public display of affection (PDA) get out of hand. The only commonality is that some form of sexual act is involved.

You sum it up very well.

[njbchbum]

The apologists for The Villages may be comparable to the apologists for the state of Vermont with it's major drug issues currently bombarding the state. I believe it was stated in another thread that Vermont is now currently trying to gloss over it's issues with sleek ads to persuade people to visit or live there.

Many of us have visited Vermont and have a "been there, done that" attitude; a travel destination to see but not at all interested in living there. The ads for the state of Vermont are necessary to try to convince people to like Vermont, apparently, or the state wouldn't be wasting their money on these ads. Vermont does not mention the drug issues in their sleek ads.

Oh, Peachie! I wish more people had that 'been there/done that attitude about visiting Vermont - Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine and New Jersey, too! My travel thru those states to my house in Maine would be sooooo much less congested! Maybe those states should give up their 'sleek advertising' and destroy the seasonal tourism that supports so many people and provides the entertainment so many people seem to seek!


MA could advertise tourism by highlighting the fact that ICE is sending the Central Americans there so that they will be 'passing thru' according to Gov Duval. Am sure it is because MA is a nice place to visit! ME tourism could advertise the problem they have with alcoholism and abuse of women there? I know for a fact that NJ tourism is not advertising how easy it is to join a gang when one comes for a visit! That could be interesting! NH? Well, I just can't think of a problem they have there that could keep tourists away; especially since they live by that 'live free or die' motto and have no sales tax!

[rubicon]

Here is what I take away from the previous posts (1) the commonality of immoral behavior (2) people who are either naive' disingenuous or unaware.

I missed that "make love not war" segment of history as I was to busy caring for a family and going to college . Hence, I do not apply a sliding scale when it comes to morality and continue with a traditional view toward sex, relationships and marriage and especially not brandishing nor bragging in public about the private aspects of my life

People always connect the catholic church with sexual abuse when sexual abuse has visited every corner of our society. The focus then should be on how people are manipulated into hiding this disgraceful behavior and how as a society we should implement plans to prevent it and thus protect our children.

Based on what I read in the paper, witnessed in public and see in movies our society is regressing, becoming more hedonistic . Those favoring this regression rejoice and perhaps participate in destroying Christianity because Christianity denounces such behavior and thus is enemy to these regressionist.

These regressionist continue these public displays because they believe if you socialize such behavior eventually you will normalize it in our society
As an example do you believe cannibals in the Amazon consider their eating habits to be abnormal? Of course not it was socialized then became normalized

[CFrance]

Oh, Peachie! I wish more people had that 'been there/done that attitude about visiting Vermont - Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine and New Jersey, too! My travel thru those states to my house in Maine would be sooooo much less congested! Maybe those states should give up their 'sleek advertising' and destroy the seasonal tourism that supports so many people and provides the entertainment so many people seem to seek!


MA could advertise tourism by highlighting the fact that ICE is sending the Central Americans there so that they will be 'passing thru' according to Gov Duval. Am sure it is because MA is a nice place to visit! ME tourism could advertise the problem they have with alcoholism and abuse of women there? I know for a fact that NJ tourism is not advertising how easy it is to join a gang when one comes for a visit! That could be interesting! NH? Well, I just can't think of a problem they have there that could keep tourists away; especially since they live by that 'live free or die' motto and have no sales tax!
I believe you missed the point. Peachie was responding to the fact that the person calling us apologists has often been an apologist herself.

At least, that's what I got out of her post.

We are not apologists; we are expressing our opinion. Calling us apologists for expressing our opinion is the same as telling us our opinion is wrong. And I object to that.

[Madelaine Amee]

I just don't know where Senior comes up with this stuff, but if you have this much time on your hands - come on down - I could use some help with my housework!

[Peachie]

Oh, Peachie! I wish more people had that 'been there/done that attitude about visiting Vermont - Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine and New Jersey, too! My travel thru those states to my house in Maine would be sooooo much less congested! Maybe those states should give up their 'sleek advertising' and destroy the seasonal tourism that supports so many people and provides the entertainment so many people seem to seek!


MA could advertise tourism by highlighting the fact that ICE is sending the Central Americans there so that they will be 'passing thru' according to Gov Duval. Am sure it is because MA is a nice place to visit! ME tourism could advertise the problem they have with alcoholism and abuse of women there? I know for a fact that NJ tourism is not advertising how easy it is to join a gang when one comes for a visit! That could be interesting! NH? Well, I just can't think of a problem they have there that could keep tourists away; especially since they live by that 'live free or die' motto and have no sales tax!

Good morning, njbchbum. I don't think I can help you with the influx of northeast urbanites looking for sight of green and trying to escape their concrete jungles. :icon_wink:

I am not against sleek advertising. The point here is that areas of the country trying to promote themselves don't dwell on their warts. The majority of the population of The Villages realize we are no better or WORSE than other areas of the country, (or the Senate, Congress or the office of the President). Does that make residents defending The Villages apologists? Nah. Then to compare us with the pedophiles in the Catholic Church, in my mind, borders on ridiculous. (I'm sure NH may have a few warts too, lol.)

[manaboutown]

[quote=senior citizen;896652]

To each his own, but truly, they should keep it private. Even T.O.T.V. was advertising a motel room with a pole dancing pole........picture of it right next to the bed............I reported that and whoosh, it disappeared. Kind of suspicious goings on. It was a very very shabby looking motel room.


One need not travel all the way from Vermont to The Villages for pole dancing.

http://www.brassbombshells.com

[pooh]

Very often some of the debaters on this forum remind me of Roman Catholic "apologists" such as one cousin we have in N.J. who totally denies any clergy abuse of children ever occurred. She totally believes the kids were all making it up. Now, we were all raised Roman Catholic, however, after reading dozens of books....many written by priests themselves who had left their orders during the height of the scandal, any intelligent person can only come to the conclusion that it did happen......based on the recollections of what went on in the seminaries....who looked the other way, how these pedophile priests got away with it all, by befriending fatherless boys.......not just in our country, but in Europe, Mexico and elsewhere..........

The Boston Globe did great investigative work on their "local cases" and guess where many of those pedophile priests were sent? To Vermont of course. This state is often misrepresented as a bunch of yokels, when in fact, it is comprised of a myriad of creative, free thinking, intelligent people.....who have clear insight into what really is going on in a given situation .

Unless one has their head in the sand, there is some truth to every rumor or innuendo. Apologists will deny everything and anything that has a sordid root. When we read this in the newspaper earlier June.......I couldn't believe this guy. See below:

""Archbishop Robert J. Carlson claimed to be uncertain that he knew sexual abuse of a child by a priest constituted a crime when he was auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, according to a deposition released Monday (June 9).

During the deposition taken last month, attorney Jeff Anderson asked Carlson whether he knew it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child.

"I�m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not," Carlson replied. "I understand today it�s a crime."

Anderson went on to ask Carlson whether he knew in 1984, when he was an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, that it was crime for a priest to engage in sex with a child.

"I�m not sure if I did or didn�t," Carlson said.

Yet according to documents released Monday (June 9) by the law firm Jeff Anderson & Associates in St. Paul, Carlson showed clear knowledge that sexual abuse was a crime when discussing incidents with church officials during his time in Minnesota.

In a 1984 document, for example, Carlson wrote to the then-archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis � John R. Roach � about one victim of sexual abuse and mentioned that the statute of limitations for filing a claim would not expire for more than two years. He also wrote that the parents of the victim were considering reporting the incident to the police.""

******************

It's the same thing with the tidbits read in "Leisureville" or else intuitively "felt" within a certain atmosphere of a place..........very difficult to believe that it is not going on.............no matter what all the apologists claim.

To each his own, but truly, they should keep it private. Even T.O.T.V. was advertising a motel room with a pole dancing pole........picture of it right next to the bed............I reported that and whoosh, it disappeared. Kind of suspicious goings on. It was a very very shabby looking motel room.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it all out. Obviously society has changed since we were "courting" however, people shouldn't flaunt their private lives in the squares.........and just maybe shouldn't become inebriated in the squares.


P.S. MANY THANKS TO ALL THOSE WHO P.M.'D ME.........APPRECIATE IT.








　


TOTV didn't advertise the hotel room.....it was a random ad from Google I believe, that popped up. Many of the ads come up as a result of searches done by posters.

Apologist? Don't think so. There are scandals all over this country, the world. Leisureville just took something and ran with it. Honestly, I can't agree with your logic senior. In 8 years, the friends I've made are absolutely not like people portrayed in Leisureville and are not at all like the two who threw good judgment out the window that night on the square.

There are immoral priests, ministers, youth pastors, teachers. They need to be dealt with by the authorities, and if not and one feels strongly about helping to resolve these horrific events, then get involved in some way to get justice.

The Villages is a community of over 100,000 residents and whether you or anyone else believes it or not, their lives are lived with little drama or notariaty.

Why is the negative more appealing I wonder?

[CFrance]

TOTV didn't advertise the hotel room.....it was a random ad from Google I believe, that popped up. Many of the ads come up as a result of searches done by posters.

Apologist? Don't think so. There are scandals all over this country, the world. Leisureville just took something and ran with it. Honestly, I can't agree with your logic senior. In 8 years, the friends I've made are absolutely not like people portrayed in Leisureville and are not at all like the two who threw good judgment out the window that night on the square.

There are immoral priests, ministers, youth pastors, teachers. They need to be dealt with by the authorities, and if not and one feels strongly about helping to resolve these horrific events, then get involved in some way to get justice.

The Villages is a community of over 100,000 residents and whether you or anyone else believes it or not, their lives are lived with little drama or notariaty.

Why is the negative more appealing I wonder?
Well said. Thank you.

[2BNTV]

Let us not overlook these two differences:

1. A priest having sex with a boy is not right, in any way, shape or form.

2. Sex between two consenting adults is permissableable, and agreeable.

The parents can choose to prosecute a young man over the age of consent, if their daughter is not 18 and was still agreeable to having sex.

A big difference, for even those, who choose to deny this reality.

Some people need to get a room, and not dispaly their affection in public.

Nuff said...........

[Madelaine Amee]

What is empathy all about? “before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes”

It is so easy for us who live in our neat little houses, behind our neat little front doors, to criticize someone for their actions, but not one of us can know the hell she must be living.

“You never really know a man until you understand things from his point of view, until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.” Lee, Harper. To Kill a Mockingbird. J.B. Lippincott & Co., 1960

Personally, I really don't care what these two people did, I was not there to witness it, and if I was there I am sure I would have just looked the other way because IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS!

[graciegirl]

Well said. Thank you.

Pooh and CFrance.
These posters have given more information and good direction to my life than all of the people I have ever met before. Just HAD to say that.


I believe that St. Thomas Aquinas wrote a book called Apologetics. It was the rationale of the Catholic Faith. Or maybe some Jesuit. I recall it as some scholarly work by a substantial theologian, that somewhere in my youth I was exposed to.

[Gat0r]

Only 5 percent of offences are reported to the police or other people.Who can say these are the first one's to have sex on the squares. Hopefully we don't all have the blinders on.If you see something that looks like it's wrong don't fail to say something.

[2BNTV]

What is empathy all about? �before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes�

It is so easy for us who live in our neat little houses, behind our neat little front doors, to criticize someone for their actions, but not one of us can know the hell she must be living.

�You never really know a man until you understand things from his point of view, until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.� Lee, Harper. To Kill a Mockingbird. J.B. Lippincott & Co., 1960

Personally, I really don't care what these two people did, I was not there to witness it, and if I was there I am sure I would have just looked the other way because IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS!

:agree: except for some people must be prudent, and act with a liitle bit of class.

Being arrested is a little over the top for me, and this thread concerning morals, has been on TOTV for too long!!! IMHO

We are not perfect but I am sure they cause themselves a lot of embarrassment, with their thoughtless behavior. I don't care if I was drunk, but would never resort to this public display. It's not a good excuse just poor judgement.

Let it be!!!!

[justjim]

:agree: except for some people must be prudent, and act with a liitle bit of class.

Being arrested is a little over the top for me, and this thread concerning morals, has been on TOTV for too long!!! IMHO

We are not perfect but I am sure they cause themselves a lot of embarrassment, with their thoughtless behavior. I don't care if I was drunk, but would never resort to this public display. It's not a good excuse just poor judgement.

Let it be!!!!

2B, good post. I know many will say the cop was just doing his job but many not so "gunho" police officers would have given a warning and told them to do their thing in private. I agree "let it be".