$200 K in student loans...

[RayinPenn]

It is intern season at our firm and we have three in our department -I have one working on a project for me. (She is awesome). One of the two others and I got to chatting and he told me he will have $200k of student loan debt when he graduates...when he said it I tried to not show the shock I felt. The University he attends is ranked in the top ten of business schools in the country...

Later a bunch of my twenty something colleagues were having afternoon coffee when the subject came up and the themes were:
1. Some had debt but nothing like our intern
2. It just wasn't worth it and it will take years to pay off... The 'nut' will be over 2500. A month.
3. It is a relationship killer - girls they have dated with huge debts and how they wrote them off when they found out...
4. An 18 year old has no sense of the financial impact of their college choice decisions.

The thought of that debt has me sitting here in disbelief...

[justjim]

The problem is many don't pay back their loans. Guess who is stuck with the debt? I read an article on this subject a few months ago and the reporter in her research found "doctors" making $500,000 a year that said they had no intention of paying off their loans.

[graciegirl]

The problem is many don't pay back their loans. Guess who is stuck with the debt? I read an article on this subject a few months ago and the reporter in her research found "doctors" making $500,000 a year that said they had no intention of paying off their loans.


OH that OUCHES my fiscally conservative self. OH MY...and three Boy Howdies.

We paid for our children and grandchildren's college education, with two caveats. They kept the good grades up and they educated themselves toward a paying job. Youngest got a full ride but it didn't cover food etc. Funny how THAT works.

[Indydealmaker]

It is intern season at our firm and we have three in our department -I have one working on a project for me. (She is awesome). One of the two others and I got to chatting and he told me he will have $200k of student loan debt when he graduates...when he said it I tried to not show the shock I felt. The University he attends is ranked in the top ten of business schools in the country...

Later a bunch of my twenty something colleagues were having afternoon coffee when the subject came up and the themes were:
1. Some had debt but nothing like our intern
2. It just wasn't worth it and it will take years to pay off... The 'nut' will be over 2500. A month.
3. It is a relationship killer - girls they have dated with huge debts and how they wrote them off when they found out...
4. An 18 year old has no sense of the financial impact of their college choice decisions.

The thought of that debt has me sitting here in disbelief...

It makes you wonder about the caliber of the counseling at our high schools, not to mention questioning the input of the parents who, quite often, have guaranteed the loans.

All too many Bachelors Degrees are simply a "check in a box" on a job application. Most graduates are not qualified to manage a sunglass kiosk at the mall. However, they have not been forewarned. In this market, a degree without on the job experience (within their major's field) is nearly worthless.

Parents need to get more involved. If they start really delving into the curriculum and the associated costs, maybe they could drive a serious restructuring of universities. Rising tuition has far outpaced inflation for years, yet the caliber of education has fallen.

[njbchbum]

Don't even get me started with the current and proposed student loan forgiveness programs that exist and might exist in the near future! If you find your blood pressure dropping, just do a bing search on 'student loan forgiveness' and your blood pressure will correct itself in short order! ;)

[njbchbum]

It makes you wonder about the caliber of the counseling at our high schools, not to mention questioning the input of the parents who, quite often, have guaranteed the loans.

All too many Bachelors Degrees are simply a "check in a box" on a job application. Most graduates are not qualified to manage a sunglass kiosk at the mall. However, they have not been forewarned. In this market, a degree without on the job experience (within their major's field) is nearly worthless.

Parents need to get more involved. If they start really delving into the curriculum and the associated costs, maybe they could drive a serious restructuring of universities. Rising tuition has far outpaced inflation for years, yet the caliber of education has fallen.

As far as I can see - the only college degree program that guarantees a return on any investment is the one that leads to a degree to become a funeral director!

Just read the posts on TOTV from people looking for assistance - most of them for someone in one of the trades or for a landscaper or handi-person...no degree necessary for those positions!

My brilliant niece is entering her senior year in h.s. Upon graduation she will take her licensing exams for cosmetology and nail tech; which career she plans to use while attending the univ of south carolina to study for a future as a dental hygienist! She figures that working part-time while going to college full-time will help to avoid those college loans. And in the end she will have licensure in two careers that are each portable in nature as well as flexible when it comes to working if/when she marries and becomes a mother!

Tell me she did not receive good advice from her parents and her favorite great-aunt!!!!

[Madelaine Amee]

It is intern season at our firm and we have three in our department -I have one working on a project for me. (She is awesome). One of the two others and I got to chatting and he told me he will have $200k of student loan debt when he graduates...when he said it I tried to not show the shock I felt. The University he attends is ranked in the top ten of business schools in the country...

Later a bunch of my twenty something colleagues were having afternoon coffee when the subject came up and the themes were:
1. Some had debt but nothing like our intern
2. It just wasn't worth it and it will take years to pay off... The 'nut' will be over 2500. A month.
3. It is a relationship killer - girls they have dated with huge debts and how they wrote them off when they found out...
4. An 18 year old has no sense of the financial impact of their college choice decisions.

The thought of that debt has me sitting here in disbelief...

Ray - thanks for starting this post for discussion, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I am the grandmother of a young man whose parents "coerced" him into attending Ohio State "because it would look good on a resume"! He graduated with a major and a minor and cannot find a job. He is left with 20 years of debt at $400 per month, and they co-signed!!!!

Before this young man graduated from high school he was working with a high end Landscaper who specialized in commercial landscaping. He was good at it and loved it, but it was considered an "after school job" by his parents who did not want him to spend his life groveling in the dirt to make a living. He had become very interested in organics, soil improvements, organic fertilizers and was really excited about the future of organics in farming. Had he stuck with it, he would have probably owned his own company by now instead of being saddled with gazzillions of debt. He worked while in college with a construction company - again he loved it, he really liked making over old homes - again, not good enough for a real job. Grrrrrrr ..........

Since the return of so many of our military with missing arms, legs and goodness only knows what, it would seem to me that the medical field, artificial intelligence, etc. etc. gives the best chance for a decent career!

But, I'm only the "ancient" grandmother and I know nothing..............

[shcisamax]

The entire higher education system is a mess. Tuitions have skyrocketed and an average private college is $50 K and more. Even the public universities are relatively expensive now. Not every kid should be in college yet high schools are now geared to push everyone towards college. As was mentioned, too many come out with no ability to secure a higher paid position. Every piece of the college experience is based upon $ whether it is College Board administering the SATs and ACTs or the admission fees, the pushing for summer programs, the government loans, the private bank loans and yadi yah. The government loans can't be renegotiated and are way higher than a mortgage. Kids are going to be paying back loans when they normally would be looking to purchase their first home. The housing market will likely suffer in the coming years. I am actually surprised that someone said they know a doctor who has said he isn't going to repay his loans. I thought there was no way out of them other than official forgiveness for teachers. We didn't take loans for the kids because it just seemed financially insane. Better to make the investment than have your kids struggle for the majority of their adult life. But it really shouldn't be such a struggle. I find it unconscionable the government through their loan program capitalizes not only on the education of our future population but straps the kids like indentured servants for years of their lives.

[Tennisnut]

The problem is many don't pay back their loans. Guess who is stuck with the debt? I read an article on this subject a few months ago and the reporter in her research found "doctors" making $500,000 a year that said they had no intention of paying off their loans.

It just goes to show you that abuse of "the system" is in all walks of life. From the hedge fund managers embracing the 1% life to the single mother trying to feed her children. Some are trying to scratch out a life while others are trying to scratch out a fortune. Just a matter of the number of "zeros".

[Taltarzac725]

I am still paying off my law student loans from the University of Minnesota. It was my 25th re-union a few months ago. Of course, I have a very unique story and I did use the work I did fighting for access to practical information for survivors/victims of crimes in all of the US states as well as abroad from 1992 through 2000 to get my MA in Librarianship and Information Management loans forgiven back around 2000. I went to the University of Denver Graduate School of Librarianship and Information Management and received my MA in May, 1984. The Western Interstate Commission on Higher Education offered a Stipend Grant that they would pay for a majority of the tuition (out of state fees waived for WICHE people) of people in fields that did not have schools accredited in certain areas of study. Nevada had no professional librarianship program. So, I signed a contract to pay back WICHE by working as a librarian in Nevada for a set number of years. I tried to get employment in Nevada as a Librarian but failed but I did pursue my survivors/victims of crimes project (224 613) which did affect the state of Nevada as I was advocating for victims/survivors rights to practical information in libraries of all kinds in EVERY US state as well as in various US territories. Of course, I sent WICHE a lot of letters, documents, e-mails backing up my claims to doing meaningful work. (unpaid though).

Too bad I cannot think of a way to apply such PRO BONO work (really at me and my family's expense) to my law school student loans.

I worked my way through various schools for my two BAs from the University of Nevada, Reno (1980,1981); Spanish at the College of San Mateo in San Mateo, CA (1985?-1986?); MA from the University of Denver Graduate School of Librarianship and Information Management (Class of 1984) as well as from the University of Minnesota Law School. (Class of 1989). I could not cover all the expenses for all this education. I also took Russian, Reading German, Reading Italian, Japanese, Chinese, and Reading Dutch to help as a Cataloger of Foreign Materials at the University of Minnesota Law School Library. I had to drop some of these Foreign Language classes as they were a little too much work right after graduating from Law School in 1989. I did succeed with Reading Dutch and Reading German but failed the Reading Italian and dropped out of the other language classes.

If you want to know the hurdles, tactics, etc. I used in the survivors/victims of crimes project I talk quite a lot about them on TOTV. And, I mentioned them with documents to support my claims while I was posting on FINDLAW's message boards from July 2001 or so through about March 2006. I also sent some of these documents back around March 13, 2014-- but only really a small selection-- to the ObamaCare people because obviously if I am still paying off Law Student Loans from 25 years ago, I cannot afford medical insurance.

[Topspinmo]

For some that's on the low side:wave:. We also paid for our sons college education both working to do it and was lucky he was responsible when getting additional loans. He paid his off within three years after college. He didn't get student loans for new SUV's, spring break (every other month, or take the summer off to tour Europe), or pay for nice apartment:$:. So many are irresponsible use the loans for everything but education needs . Most have no intension of paying it back. They expect mommy, daddy or the government to bail them out. Most are Politically brain washed anyway after college:wave:.

[DDoug]

Used to be if you didnt pay your student loan it came off your SS before you would collect any.

[graciegirl]

It just goes to show you that abuse of "the system" is in all walks of life. From the hedge fund managers embracing the 1% life to the single mother trying to feed her children. Some are trying to scratch out a life while others are trying to scratch out a fortune. Just a matter of the number of "zeros".


Yep and add in all those folks with tattoos paid for by their welfare checks and doing drugs while on the dole. I think it's all how you look at it.

At least all the successful business people who some folks are always maligning, they are providing jobs and paying SOME income tax.

You know, not all successful and wealthy business people are slimy, just as not all poor people are slimy. There are MANY decent, ethical, hard working and good people in both groups.


Starting out with very little, I have learned it means more, makes you realize what it means to other people too, when you make it on your own. There are many, many, many people in this world who need and deserve welfare, and many, many, many who do not need, nor deserve welfare. SOMETHING needs to change.


Did I JUST write an hour ago that I am old enough to know that you will NEVER change ANYONE's views on politics and religion???? Did I??????

[Tennisnut]

Yep and add in all those folks with tattoos paid for by their welfare checks and doing drugs while on the dole. I think it's all how you look at it.

At least all the successful business people who some folks are always maligning, they are providing jobs and paying SOME income tax.

You know, not all successful and wealthy business people are slimy, just as not all poor people are slimy. There are MANY decent, ethical, hard working and good people in both groups.


Starting out with very little, I have learned it means more, makes you realize what it means to other people too, when you make it on your own. There are many, many, many people in this world who need and deserve welfare, and many, many, many who do not need, nor deserve welfare. SOMETHING needs to change.


Did I JUST write an hour ago that I am old enough to know that you will NEVER change ANYONE's views on politics and religion???? Did I??????

You are right that no economic class has a monopoly on abuse of the system. Those that have good fortune to have the means to have a positive affect on society are to be commended (Gates , Buffet et al). Those that take 2% and 20 % and pay a long term capital gains rate on $300M/yr are abusive of the system. WE all have our prejudices and think we are right about our opinions. As long as we are happy in our own skin and can look in the mirror with a straight face. Some people with tattoos are very good citizens and some in a business suit are crooks. One has to look in their heart to see the real person!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

A few years ago I had a position with a golf retailer. We had a kid who ran the shoe department. When I say ran the department, he basically kept it clean, stocked the shelves and help customers. H had pretty fair knowledge of golf shoes.
he had graduated college about a year before I knew him and this was the only job he could find. He has a two hour rise to work each way and I believe that he was paid about $9.00 an hour plus a few commissions. He was always complaining that he couldn't find a job in his field of study which was sports journalism.
One day he told me that he had over $80,000 in college loans that he was paying off. I asked him why he didn't get a job where he could make more money so he could get his loans paid off sooner. He said that he applied every where but none of the radio or television stations were hiring broadcasters for major league sports and he didn't want to take something that was not in his field. I told him that I knew a guy in the area close to his home that had a construction business. He was hiring unskilled laborers at $25.00 per hour. His response was, "I'm not going to do construction. I'm a college graduate".

[Tennisnut]

The entire higher education system is a mess. Tuitions have skyrocketed and an average private college is $50 K and more. Even the public universities are relatively expensive now. Not every kid should be in college yet high schools are now geared to push everyone towards college. As was mentioned, too many come out with no ability to secure a higher paid position. Every piece of the college experience is based upon $ whether it is College Board administering the SATs and ACTs or the admission fees, the pushing for summer programs, the government loans, the private bank loans and yadi yah. The government loans can't be renegotiated and are way higher than a mortgage. Kids are going to be paying back loans when they normally would be looking to purchase their first home. The housing market will likely suffer in the coming years. I am actually surprised that someone said they know a doctor who has said he isn't going to repay his loans. I thought there was no way out of them other than official forgiveness for teachers. We didn't take loans for the kids because it just seemed financially insane. Better to make the investment than have your kids struggle for the majority of their adult life. But it really shouldn't be such a struggle. I find it unconscionable the government through their loan program capitalizes not only on the education of our future population but straps the kids like indentured servants for years of their lives.
Concur. Higher education is no longer an investment in the our future but an investment in the Educator's portfolio. For example, Janet Napolitano, the President of the University of California system will be provided the housing for $9,950 a month, plus an annual $570,000 salary, $8,916 a year for car expenses and $142,500 for one-time relocation costs. No wonder, tuition is rising.

[janmcn]

Concur. Higher education is no longer an investment in the our future but an investment in the Educator's portfolio. For example, Janet Napolitano, the President of the University of California system will be provided the housing for $9,950 a month, plus an annual $570,000 salary, $8,916 a year for car expenses and $142,500 for one-time relocation costs. No wonder, tuition is rising.


The former president of Ohio State University, Gordon Gee, had a total compensation package totaling $6.1 million dollars. The University of California is lucky to have a person of Janet Napolitano's caliber, a former governor and a former cabinet member. Why do you suppose she is being paid a pittance of what Mr. Gee was being paid? Could it be because she is a woman? It seems that running the University of California system is a much bigger responsibility than running Ohio State.

[boomerbaby]

Having helped our 4 children pay for their college the one piece of advice I would give is to be careful what kind of loans you sign for. Our last child went to a great college and the institution recommend a bank to get the loan from. Well now he has graduated and jobs are not easy to find. He did get a job but that does not help pay the loans. The college assures you they will help you get a job but that was not true. By the time he would pay this off it would be like he purchased a home. Luckily we were able to switch banks and now the payments are much easier on him. We have learned it is not as important anymore to get that job you really want but to get the one that will pay your huge loans. It is a mess.

[Buckeyephan]

Dr. E. Gordon Gee had previous experience as a professor and university president before he went to OSU. He was not a politician and was well qualified for his post. I suspect Ms Napolitano receives less compensation because of her lack of academic experience rather than her gender.

[buggyone]

Before getting bent out of shape on university presidents salaries, look at university sports coaches!

The top 10 of them range from $4,000,000 to over $9,000,000 plus all sorts of bonuses and other allowances.

Their salaries are way out of line when compared to those educating our youths.

[Taltarzac725]

Before getting bent out of shape on university presidents salaries, look at university sports coaches!

The top 10 of them range from $4,000,000 to over $9,000,000 plus all sorts of bonuses and other allowances.

Their salaries are way out of line when compared to those educating our youths.

It seems to have a lot to do with the revenue they can bring to their University if they have a winning team. I have never put much real value to money, however. It is just a tool, weapon, or means. That is speaking as someone who really never has had much in the way of money though. I'd probably be homeless if not for the love and support of my parents.

[buggyone]

It seems to have a lot to do with the revenue they can bring to their University if they have a winning team.

Yes, but it also adds a lot to tuition.

[gamby]

Not Kidding !

My daughter will be ready to retire and still have student loan debt if she continues to make just the min payment;
She did get a late start completing her education with a masters in education.

They don't tell you that the loan interest continues from day one even while you are in school and will continue until it's paid off or she dies.

The program is a government trap for young people; Some would call it a scam !

[B767drvr]

Before getting bent out of shape on university presidents salaries, look at university sports coaches!

The top 10 of them range from $4,000,000 to over $9,000,000 plus all sorts of bonuses and other allowances.

Their salaries are way out of line when compared to those educating our youths.

Just a guess.. but I think sports brings in big bucks for the college compared to "women's studies"… but what do I know? :)

[Madelaine Amee]

What is the general opinion about getting an internet college degree? Are they yet accepted by business, have they been evaluated in any proper way, does anyone have any insight on this. To my simple mind, it seems a great way to go instead of paying through the proverbial nose for college.

I have had the opportunity to witness home schooling procedures and it's excellent results, so may be it's about time to consider home schooling for a college degree.

One of my granddaughters is home schooled. Her SAT scores were in the top percentile of the country and she has been accepted into the prestigious National Honor & Merit Scholars Society and she's just 17yrs old. So if you can get this far with a home school education, what about college. I believe this will become more and more acceptable as time goes by.

[rockyisle]

It makes you wonder about the caliber of the counseling at our high schools, not to mention questioning the input of the parents who, quite often, have guaranteed the loans.

All too many Bachelors Degrees are simply a "check in a box" on a job application. Most graduates are not qualified to manage a sunglass kiosk at the mall. However, they have not been forewarned. In this market, a degree without on the job experience (within their major's field) is nearly worthless.

Parents need to get more involved. If they start really delving into the curriculum and the associated costs, maybe they could drive a serious restructuring of universities. Rising tuition has far outpaced inflation for years, yet the caliber of education has fallen.
I joined a NH high school after leaving Corporate America in 2002. I worked as a Career Counselor for 2200 students. One of the things I harped on was NEVER have more loan debt than the income you will make the first year after graduation from college. I would make them research what the starting wages would be for their selected career and made sure they understood what their monthly nut would look like.
For many, my words fell on deaf ears. They were enamored with the Ivy League status - or the great football team. And their spineless parents were willing to co-sign for all those loans. Who was the adult in the decision making process? I would leave those debts at the feet of parents who signed for or encouraged the loans.
It's ridiculous to blame teens who have never had debt in their life to understand what this means over their lifetime. Yet, they are the ones who will carry the burden for their lifetime.
My granddaughter just graduated from college in May with $30K in debt - and that was going to a state school. Thankfully, she had a job 5 days after graduation in her field making $32,500 a year. Perfect! Now I'll be praying that she stays in the job. Of course, many of her friends have "taken the summer off" and she's feeling cheated... But those student loans start no matter what 6 months after graduation.. Tick Tock....

[Mr. Grampi II]

I agree with some of the comments here but with all due respect I think some are out of touch.

I am still working and in a position where I hire people on a regular basis. A bachelors degree is a requirement for an entry level engineering position that pays $35-$40K a year. Without a bachelors degree you would not even be considered.

While most good paying jobs today require a college degree to even be considered, it does not guarantee a job. Today a 2 year Associates degree is the equivalent of a high school diploma.

I have 3 daughters in there 20's, all with college degrees , all went to a small Christian college. They have remaining college loan debt ranging from $25K to $75K. The one with the $75K has an advanced degree in midwifery from the University of Michigan. Her advanced degree was funded in its entirety by a fellowship from the U of M.

Each one has worked like crazy after college to pay down debt and making excellent progress.

While the cost of a college education has skyrocketed it is not a new problem. I have a doctor in his 50's that still has about $90k of college debt.

I am worried that my grand children will need a PHD to be a cocktail waitress.....

[shcisamax]

But there is the rub. If after getting your bachelors, you have debt that can haunt you til you are in your 50's, what other pieces in your life are impacted? How does THAT affect the overall domestic economy? Are we as a country shooting ourselves in our own economic foot by strapping on such precursors to GDP on our general population?


In looking at the entire college monetary experience, I think college now isn't about education, college is about business and a business for not just the college but all the pieces that feed into it: the sports, the loans, the books...don't get me started on the books. Some books can cost $400! Some you are forced to buy through the school because a professor wrote it so guess what the required book is. Even the professors are making money on the kids. I always say rent it if you can.

Then we have the food service that wants their piece. Some colleges make it a requirement that you pay for a meal plan for a couple years rather than economize by buying food outside.

Even the admissions process which includes a fee anywhere from $50 and up is a system to gain more money. As the ratio of how many apply versus are accepted is a figure that is then used as an indication of the importance of the college, they pay people to go out to market the college to all the high schools. So if they get 40,000 applications at $50 per, that's $2 million for primarily a computer to weed through and a few application counselors.

Of course, the sports teams are really a huge driver of $. All those kids are on scholarship so they need others to make up that salary for the coach. In England, and I am assuming most of Europe, there isn't even a place on the application to write what sports you played. Because sports aren't part of the education equation.

Now more than ever it appears that to get the job out of college, you need to have worked your summers in affiliated fields so when you get out of college, you don't just check the box "bachelors", you also have experience. That has a huge impact in getting the job after college.

The point that people are getting degrees in things they cannot make a good living, or perhaps a job, is a good point. Years ago, I remember saying I was going to major in philosophy and my father said, "Not on my dime". I was furious. But clearly he knew more than I did.

[shcisamax]

How fortuitous. Pick up The Economist ..June 28-July 4 issue. Front title Creative Destruction. Reinventing the University. Great article and there is hope through online learning.

BTW: If anyone has any doubts as to how high expenses have gone, here is an excerpt:
"Universities have passed most of the rising costs on to students. Fees in private non-profit universities in America rose by 28% in real terms in the decade to 2012. Public universities increased their fees by 27% in the five years to 2012. "

And:
American student debt adds up to $1.2 trillion with more than 7 m people in default.

Get the magazine. Great article.

[Taltarzac725]

But there is the rub. If after getting your bachelors, you have debt that can haunt you til you are in your 50's, what other pieces in your life are impacted? How does THAT affect the overall domestic economy? Are we as a country shooting ourselves in our own economic foot by strapping on such precursors to GDP on our general population?


In looking at the entire college monetary experience, I think college now isn't about education, college is about business and a business for not just the college but all the pieces that feed into it: the sports, the loans, the books...don't get me started on the books. Some books can cost $400! Some you are forced to buy through the school because a professor wrote it so guess what the required book is. Even the professors are making money on the kids. I always say rent it if you can.

Then we have the food service that wants their piece. Some colleges make it a requirement that you pay for a meal plan for a couple years rather than economize by buying food outside.

Even the admissions process which includes a fee anywhere from $50 and up is a system to gain more money. As the ratio of how many apply versus are accepted is a figure that is then used as an indication of the importance of the college, they pay people to go out to market the college to all the high schools. So if they get 40,000 applications at $50 per, that's $2 million for primarily a computer to weed through and a few application counselors.

Of course, the sports teams are really a huge driver of $. All those kids are on scholarship so they need others to make up that salary for the coach. In England, and I am assuming most of Europe, there isn't even a place on the application to write what sports you played. Because sports aren't part of the education equation.

Now more than ever it appears that to get the job out of college, you need to have worked your summers in affiliated fields so when you get out of college, you don't just check the box "bachelors", you also have experience. That has a huge impact in getting the job after college.

The point that people are getting degrees in things they cannot make a good living, or perhaps a job, is a good point. Years ago, I remember saying I was going to major in philosophy and my father said, "Not on my dime". I was furious. But clearly he knew more than I did.


Most of the Philosophy fellow majors I knew while at the University of Nevada, Reno went into Law or something related to Law (like me AS A VOLUNTEER though with my 613 224 project) or wanted to get a Ph.D and teach Philosophy to college students. One around 1980-1981 got himself into some very serious trouble by attempting to seduce a married woman. The jealous husband stabbed him in the heart area about six times and THEN the jury sided with the jealous husband in terms of crimes of passion. He was back attracted to married women the last I encountered him so I kind of wanted to keep my distance. Never did find out what happened to him but he sure had a great laugh when I was sitting with him at the Raiders of the Lost Ark http://www.avclub.com/article/rip-stuntman-terry-richards-swordsman-raiders-lost-206240 and Indiana shot the huge knife welder. Some of the Law Students at the University of Minnesota were Philosophy majors. More were Accounting or Business majors though.

I did feel like I had to get a MA and a JD to find work though. Too bad I faced such problems trying to be honest about problems I found in the accessibility of practical materials for survivors of crimes! I had the Law Librarian of Congress-- M. Kathleen Price-- as a Reference in 1990 and early 1991. Then I got hit with the response from the U of MN Law Library that I should see a University of MN psychologist for my wanting to be honest with EMPLOYERS OTHER than the U of MN about my experiences looking for practical materials in libraries from February 1976 onward. I am just trying to paint the picture of why I have had such problems using my 4 degrees and possible give people an idea of how they can help. I wrote ALL the sitting State governors in 1991 as well as half the US Representatives, ALL the US Senators, some Law Librarians, some Law Professors, and a few others. All of this done from Dinkytown near the U of MN and then from Rohnert Park, CA in late Summer through December of 1991. This was about my experiences with trying to do something about this niche basically just going from my personal experiences with the Michelle Mitchell investigation (2-24-1976 murder-Google it). The U of MN and some other institutions seemed to make the whole problem of this niche about my mental health, rather than addressing the actual issue of this niche in practical information. Since, I could not find employment after all this, I tried to do it through enlisting an army outside of the institutes of higher education as well as some within it. One of these resources was Hollywood and people connected to it as I thought there were a lot of people in Hollywood who could step into the shoes of other people. This complete lack of empathy seemed be the huge problem with many in the troubles I faced.

Again, I hope that this will help with getting people to help themselves. Do some research on the web. If you became a survivor/victim of violent or other kinds of crimes, what would you like to see accessible in libraries of all kinds? What would you like your grandkids to have access to if something happens to them? Of course, there are various victim/witness programs in place, but what about someone thinking of reporting a crime, affected by crimes in some way like me and the 2-24 murder investigation, etc.

The University of Minnesota Law School professors did teach me to get anything important in writing and carefully document everything.

And, I hope you see why this in still important in June 2014 with the various shootings, stabbings, etc. at schools and elsewhere. They will and have created people trying to navigate through the same kind of feelings, emotions, etc., that I had with the Michelle Mitchell investigation back around 2-24-1976. From my experiences, I doubt seriously if much has changed in these institutions. I could be wrong though. I would not have lasted this long in this fight without being a rather blind optimist.

Incidentally, I ran into a Philosophy professor from the University of Nevada, Reno-- Frank Lucash-- after I played hooky from the American Association of Law Libraries http://www.aallnet.org/ 1989 convention in Reno, Nevada. I had been introduced as the cataloger of all the WESTLAW files as of a certain date by the University of Minnesota Law Library staff. I wanted to take a long walk around Reno, NV and found myself at the same theater where I had seen Raiders of the Lost Ark back in 1981. This time I was going to see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and walking out of the theater was Professor Frank Lucash. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/indiana_jones_and_the_last_crusade/

I saw the 2nd Indiana Jones movie in Denver in 1984 while at the University of Denver Graduate School of Librarianship and Information Management with an adorable Chinese-American female MA Librarianship program colleague who just about crushed my hand from watching the movie. I believe she married her long time friend from the University of California Santa Barbara who was a budding screenwriter. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/indiana_jones_and_the_temple_of_doom/ I always check the screen credits for his name whenever seeing a movie.

[Madelaine Amee]

But there is the rub. If after getting your bachelors, you have debt that can haunt you til you are in your 50's, what other pieces in your life are impacted? How does THAT affect the overall domestic economy? Are we as a country shooting ourselves in our own economic foot by strapping on such precursors to GDP on our general population?


In looking at the entire college monetary experience, I think college now isn't about education, college is about business and a business for not just the college but all the pieces that feed into it: the sports, the loans, the books...don't get me started on the books. Some books can cost $400! Some you are forced to buy through the school because a professor wrote it so guess what the required book is. Even the professors are making money on the kids. I always say rent it if you can.

Then we have the food service that wants their piece. Some colleges make it a requirement that you pay for a meal plan for a couple years rather than economize by buying food outside.

Even the admissions process which includes a fee anywhere from $50 and up is a system to gain more money. As the ratio of how many apply versus are accepted is a figure that is then used as an indication of the importance of the college, they pay people to go out to market the college to all the high schools. So if they get 40,000 applications at $50 per, that's $2 million for primarily a computer to weed through and a few application counselors.

Of course, the sports teams are really a huge driver of $. All those kids are on scholarship so they need others to make up that salary for the coach. In England, and I am assuming most of Europe, there isn't even a place on the application to write what sports you played. Because sports aren't part of the education equation.

Now more than ever it appears that to get the job out of college, you need to have worked your summers in affiliated fields so when you get out of college, you don't just check the box "bachelors", you also have experience. That has a huge impact in getting the job after college.

The point that people are getting degrees in things they cannot make a good living, or perhaps a job, is a good point. Years ago, I remember saying I was going to major in philosophy and my father said, "Not on my dime". I was furious. But clearly he knew more than I did.

Your mention of Europe is interesting to me. While on a river cruise we were in many University cities and I had the opportunity to ask someone about University costs. I was told that you could attend college in Germany for a minimal cost, but you don't just pay your money and go, you have to pass their requirements for entrance, and their requirements are high.

I just feel we are going to lose some really good talent in this country if we don't get college fees under control. Unfortunately, MONEY is GOD here.

[Taltarzac725]

Your mention of Europe is interesting to me. While on a river cruise we were in many University cities and I had the opportunity to ask someone about University costs. I was told that you could attend college in Germany for a minimal cost, but you don't just pay your money and go, you have to pass their requirements for entrance, and their requirements are high.

I just feel we are going to lose some really good talent in this country if we don't get college fees under control. Unfortunately, MONEY is GOD here.

It was very amusing to watch the University of Minnesota Law Library staff practically bow to some very wealthy donors back when I was working there. I kind of felt they wanted to put me in some closet where they would not notice me. Kind of hard to do though when I was the cataloger of all the WESTLAW computer files and supposedly the faux star at the moment. I was kind of the show dog who was kept on a muzzle except for certain occasions like the 1989 American Association of Law Libraries convention in Reno, NV. I got the job at the U of MN Law Library in the first place because a U of MN Law School Student Body President took me under her wing and guided me and pulled some strings. I had had the friendship of several subsequent U of MN Law School student body Presidents. They all eventually graduated though.

I believe this family they slaved over inherited the money from some robber baron like capitalist in Minnesota who probably pulled every trick he could think of to build his railroad. There are some very humanitarian minded capitalists but then there are many in the past who were extremely ruthless and would do anything to succeed.

[gomoho]

Joe Bert, CEO of Certified Financial Services, spoke about this topic on FOX 35 "ON THE MONEY" this morning. The most interesting point he made in regards to this was how these students burdened with the debt are not in a position to create new households which are really the backbone of our economy - buying houses, furniture, appliances, cars. They are home living in parent's basements unable to get jobs that allow them to support themselves - let alone a family and the loan debt they are burdened with So yes, it is definitely affecting our economy.

[shcisamax]

Joe Bert, CEO of Certified Financial Services, spoke about this topic on FOX 35 "ON THE MONEY" this morning. The most interesting point he made in regards to this was how these students burdened with the debt are not in a position to create new households which are really the backbone of our economy - buying houses, furniture, appliances, cars. They are home living in parent's basements unable to get jobs that allow them to support themselves - let alone a family and the loan debt they are burdened with So yes, it is definitely affecting our economy.


That is exactly what I am speaking of. The entire economy will suffer because of this debt. And it won't just be a five year recession.

[Indydealmaker]

That is exactly what I am speaking of. The entire economy will suffer because of this debt. And it won't just be a five year recession.

If these loans are going unpaid now, how will the economy be helped by subsidizing the debt? Subsidizing the debt will have a positive effect only if it frees up money that is currently being spent on debt service.

I postulate that any bailout will do nothing at all for the students that are wallowing in default right now. Their money will still be consumed by their lifestyle just like it is currently. Financial responsibility, or lack thereof, cannot be legislated and subsidized.

[gomoho]

No one in the past few posts said anything about forgiving debt. We are making the point they are so saddled with this debt it is hurting this economy because of the inability to move ahead as past generations have done. The few that land good jobs are probably working at paying this off - others probably aren't so lucky. We aren't by
any means proposing a solution simply stating what a negative impact this has on the future of this country.

[janmcn]

No one in the past few posts said anything about forgiving debt. We are making the point they are so saddled with this debt it is hurting this economy because of the inability to move ahead as past generations have done. The few that land good jobs are probably working at paying this off - others probably aren't so lucky. We aren't by
any means proposing a solution simply stating what a negative impact this has on the future of this country.


One possible solution suggested has been to lower the interest rate to the same as what banks are paying or the same rate as mortgages and allow students to refinance their loans at the lower rates. This would allow students to pay off their loans quicker.

[Rags123]

One possible solution suggested has been to lower the interest rate to the same as what banks are paying or the same rate as mortgages and allow students to refinance their loans at the lower rates. This would allow students to pay off their loans quicker.

But SOMEBODY has to pay for this ! You can't just lower....someone pays.

[asianthree]

two of our children are doctors $$$$$ and grandchild is now looking at med school...we paid for the first 4 to 6 years so debt is still over half a mil...

[shcisamax]

No one in the past few posts said anything about forgiving debt. We are making the point they are so saddled with this debt it is hurting this economy because of the inability to move ahead as past generations have done. The few that land good jobs are probably working at paying this off - others probably aren't so lucky. We aren't by
any means proposing a solution simply stating what a negative impact this has on the future of this country.

EXACTLY! This isn't about forgiving debt. This is about our government and our educational system in tandem are saddling this country's population with debt that will preclude them from participating in conventional buying practices which will place a burden on GDP.

[Taltarzac725]

One possible solution suggested has been to lower the interest rate to the same as what banks are paying or the same rate as mortgages and allow students to refinance their loans at the lower rates. This would allow students to pay off their loans quicker.

My interest rates have been fairly low. I am with Sallie Mae and have had to refinance a number of times because of failure to find work when I lived in Palm Harbor and earlier Rohnert Park. I did have to make a certain number of attempts each month at finding work at some point though. Not sure if this was with Sallie Mae or not. This was while the debt was on a holding pattern.

I stupidly made a bunch of payments on my loans when I had a little money last year and instead of saying "Good job" with getting the loans paid ahead of time, they instead increased the amount I had to pay by about 300%. Makes a lot of sense! ;( It went from $43.55 or so a month to $130.54. It will get my entire law school loans paid off in a few years but is quite an expense for me. So, rather than complaining, I am trying to do it. I am hoping that the ObamaCare people will come through for me with the medical insurance but so far nothing. They said via a document that I did not qualify because I had not filed Federal Income Tax in 2013. I did not file because I was well under the amount needed to file as far as I know. I did have to give the ObamaCare people a detailed run-down of the income I was expected to make in 2014. Looks quite bleak on paper. I am kind of the resolute optimist though.

[Taltarzac725]

Most of the Philosophy fellow majors I knew while at the University of Nevada, Reno went into Law or something related to Law (like me AS A VOLUNTEER though with my 613 224 project) or wanted to get a Ph.D and teach Philosophy to college students. One around 1980-1981 got himself into some very serious trouble by attempting to seduce a married woman. The jealous husband stabbed him in the heart area about six times and THEN the jury sided with the jealous husband in terms of crimes of passion. He was back attracted to married women the last I encountered him so I kind of wanted to keep my distance. Never did find out what happened to him but he sure had a great laugh when I was sitting with him at the Raiders of the Lost Ark R.I.P. stuntman Terry Richards, the swordsman from Raiders Of The Lost Ark · Newswire · The A.V. Club (http://www.avclub.com/article/rip-stuntman-terry-richards-swordsman-raiders-lost-206240) and Indiana shot the huge knife welder. Some of the Law Students at the University of Minnesota were Philosophy majors. More were Accounting or Business majors though.

I did feel like I had to get a MA and a JD to find work though. Too bad I faced such problems trying to be honest about problems I found in the accessibility of practical materials for survivors of crimes! I had the Law Librarian of Congress-- M. Kathleen Price-- as a Reference in 1990 and early 1991. Then I got hit with the response from the U of MN Law Library that I should see a University of MN psychologist for my wanting to be honest with EMPLOYERS OTHER than the U of MN about my experiences looking for practical materials in libraries from February 1976 onward. I am just trying to paint the picture of why I have had such problems using my 4 degrees and possible give people an idea of how they can help. I wrote ALL the sitting State governors in 1991 as well as half the US Representatives, ALL the US Senators, some Law Librarians, some Law Professors, and a few others. All of this done from Dinkytown near the U of MN and then from Rohnert Park, CA in late Summer through December of 1991. This was about my experiences with trying to do something about this niche basically just going from my personal experiences with the Michelle Mitchell investigation (2-24-1976 murder-Google it). The U of MN and some other institutions seemed to make the whole problem of this niche about my mental health, rather than addressing the actual issue of this niche in practical information. Since, I could not find employment after all this, I tried to do it through enlisting an army outside of the institutes of higher education as well as some within it. One of these resources was Hollywood and people connected to it as I thought there were a lot of people in Hollywood who could step into the shoes of other people. This complete lack of empathy seemed be the huge problem with many in the troubles I faced.

Again, I hope that this will help with getting people to help themselves. Do some research on the web. If you became a survivor/victim of violent or other kinds of crimes, what would you like to see accessible in libraries of all kinds? What would you like your grandkids to have access to if something happens to them? Of course, there are various victim/witness programs in place, but what about someone thinking of reporting a crime, affected by crimes in some way like me and the 2-24 murder investigation, etc.

The University of Minnesota Law School professors did teach me to get anything important in writing and carefully document everything.

And, I hope you see why this in still important in June 2014 with the various shootings, stabbings, etc. at schools and elsewhere. They will and have created people trying to navigate through the same kind of feelings, emotions, etc., that I had with the Michelle Mitchell investigation back around 2-24-1976. From my experiences, I doubt seriously if much has changed in these institutions. I could be wrong though. I would not have lasted this long in this fight without being a rather blind optimist.

Incidentally, I ran into a Philosophy professor from the University of Nevada, Reno-- Frank Lucash-- after I played hooky from the American Association of Law Libraries AALL (http://www.aallnet.org/) 1989 convention in Reno, Nevada. I had been introduced as the cataloger of all the WESTLAW files as of a certain date by the University of Minnesota Law Library staff. I wanted to take a long walk around Reno, NV and found myself at the same theater where I had seen Raiders of the Lost Ark back in 1981. This time I was going to see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and walking out of the theater was Professor Frank Lucash. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - Rotten Tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/indiana_jones_and_the_last_crusade/)

I saw the 2nd Indiana Jones movie in Denver in 1984 while at the University of Denver Graduate School of Librarianship and Information Management with an adorable Chinese-American female MA Librarianship program colleague who just about crushed my hand from watching the movie. I believe she married her long time friend from the University of California Santa Barbara who was a budding screenwriter. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - Rotten Tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/indiana_jones_and_the_temple_of_doom/) I always check the screen credits for his name whenever seeing a movie.


Some of this may sound unbelievable. My fellow UNR Philosophy student colleague from around 1980 was stabbed a number of times in the heart area. Some of these might have been quite shallow, others deeper. He did like to take his shirt off and freak the girls out at the University of Nevada, Reno cafeteria. He did it once with a group of us Philosophy students. He was pronounced dead or something like that but brought back after quite a lot of emergency work. The oxygen was cut off from his brain for quite some time and he lost a lot of his knowledge in various areas. Ironically, I seem to recall that this attempted murder was close to a legal whorehouse just outside Sparks, Nevada (Mustang Ranch).

I tried to look him up on Google yesterday and he may or may not still be in Reno, Nevada. He has a somewhat common name, so there could be more than one person with the same moniker as he has. I have a very uncommon name and there was someone with the same first and last name in the Twin Cities area while I was there.

He was about 11 to 15 years older than I was. Probably around 32 to 36 back then. Very attractive with a full head of hair. A Vietnam veteran.

I remember another upset husband had messed with his vehicle while he was gone to such an extent that the engine fell out of it while he was driving it. I never did figure out how that happened. He only got it a few yards from his small house. My UNR friend told me the story. I became a friend with him because he needed a ride to UNR around that time and he was on my way to UNR.