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senior citizen
07-02-2014, 07:12 AM
This is NOT "P"; just news.......some leaders have said that more young adults should go to college so they can undergo "indoctrination" to a secular world view.

In an hour-long interview with conservative television host , this person said:

"I understand why he wants to send every kid to college, because of their indoctrination mills, absolutely … The indoctrination that is going on at the university level is a harm to our country."

He claimed that "62 percent of kids who go into college with a faith commitment leave without it," ....... And he floated the idea of requiring that universities that receive public funds have "intellectual diversity" on campus.
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It obviously depends on the individual "youth"......but we've noticed that those who are super intelligent and think for themselves (or else follow their high school teachers and college professors opinions on the subject) do fall away from their parents/grandparents' family religion, while some "kids" are content to following the religion of their parents, no questions asked.

((We noticed that in New England universities there were more than their share of radical thinking high school teachers and college professors......))

However, the interior goodness is still there as these young to middle aged adults are now truly into quietly making the world a better place, inclusive for all, "giving back" or "paying it forward"........surprising people with their generosity ........so they are truly "living their religion or lack thereof" whether they realize it or not.

Not just religion but the "p" word which is illegal to say here. God only knows why.

Our son went into college as a conservative and came out as a liberal.

Now, still teaching his own youngsters to be kind and loving.......living the Christian principles without professing the faith of his ancestors.

Just not into sacraments, rituals and the "hierarchy" rules. Not into manmade religion.

Ditto for the wife who had a bad experience in the evangelical church of her youth. But, kinder more loving woman you've never met. Her children reflect that love and kindness to all.

Paying it forward on a daily basis and charitable acts, done quietly, is the path they are on.

However, this more "secular world view" is fostered at both high school and university level.......at least from what we've experienced.

graciegirl
07-02-2014, 07:28 AM
As the twig is bent, the tree inclines.

buggyone
07-02-2014, 07:31 AM
Well, we all did send our children to learn to think for themselves, didn't we?

If the idea was just to have a carbon copy of ourself, the child would have been home schooled in a vacuum and not given access to the thinking and actions of others.

CFrance
07-02-2014, 07:40 AM
I agree with Buggy. All I care about is that they be responsible citizens and kind-hearted people who respect others' opinions. And that's what we got, and I think going to college helped them to further those qualities that we tried to model when they were growing up.

You have to let go. At some point they go on to be their own selves. We encouraged ours to leave the somewhat isolated, conservative community of west Michigan where kids stayed together from pre-school through college, and go find out that there were other types of people in the world. They took it and ran with it. I'm proud, but I miss them! Thank God for Skype.

senior citizen
07-02-2014, 09:33 AM
As the twig is bent, the tree inclines.



Sometimes so, sometimes not.

Both sides of our family (my husband's and mine) were all raised Roman Catholic and up to our generation, born circa 1945, we all followed in our parents footsteps for the most part, especially as far as the Catholic faith, sacraments such as baptism of the infants, First Holy Communion, Confirmation, etc. and of course Cathechism classes......plus being married in the church.

Now, some of our siblings (in later years) left the church and joined Lutheran churches, Methodist churches, Presbyterian churches, etc.

The next generation of the family (the children of above siblings,etc.) joined EVANGELICAL CHURCHES and United Church of Christ churches..........etc .

Only one cousin's daughter and her husband have remained in the Roman Catholic church and baptized their infants, plus take them to Sunday mass. They are early 30's. Everyone else changed their
denominations.

The rest of the cousins and descendants have followed their own path of spirituality........obviously there has been a big sea change since we were married in our neighborhood church in 1965 and baptized our infants in 1968 and 1971........following our parents' religion.......

Times have changed......as all of these adult children went to university, moved away from either the old neighborhood, their home states, etc..........truly nothing has remained the same as far as religion goes. Our grandparents were VERY DEVOUT. I know they found peace , solace and beauty in attending daily mass.
Different world today.

senior citizen
07-02-2014, 09:40 AM
Well, we all did send our children to learn to think for themselves, didn't we?

If the idea was just to have a carbon copy of ourself, the child would have been home schooled in a vacuum and not given access to the thinking and actions of others.



You are totally correct.

I do understand why they've all followed their own paths.

Both of ours, and their spouses, got a great education, have traveled the world, are successful in their careers and homelife. We are extremely proud of them and their children.......

It's not just our adult children, but all of our friends and neighbors kids as well.........although they respect their roots, they have chosen other paths........but in the larger scheme of things, we all can see it's all "worked out well"........

Our immigrant grandparents found solace in the old ways......
Our kids' generation were a different kind of pioneer.........
keeping what works for them, while discarding what was irrelevant.

njbchbum
07-02-2014, 09:40 AM
Well, we all did send our children to learn to think for themselves, didn't we?

If the idea was just to have a carbon copy of ourself, the child would have been home schooled in a vacuum and not given access to the thinking and actions of others.

Is that really what you think home schooling is?

senior citizen
07-02-2014, 09:42 AM
i agree with buggy. All i care about is that they be responsible citizens and kind-hearted people who respect others' opinions. And that's what we got, and i think going to college helped them to further those qualities that we tried to model when they were growing up.

You have to let go. At some point they go on to be their own selves. We encouraged ours to leave the somewhat isolated, conservative community of west michigan where kids stayed together from pre-school through college, and go find out that there were other types of people in the world. They took it and ran with it. I'm proud, but i miss them! Thank god for skype.


ditto.......totally agree.........

njbchbum
07-02-2014, 09:51 AM
You are totally correct.

I do understand why they've all followed their own paths.

Both of ours, and their spouses, got a great education, have traveled the world, are successful in their careers and homelife. We are extremely proud of them and their children.......

It's not just our adult children, but all of our friends and neighbors kids as well.........although they respect their roots, they have chosen other paths........but in the larger scheme of things, we all can see it's all "worked out well"........

Our immigrant grandparents found solace in the old ways......
Our kids' generation were a different kind of pioneer.........
keeping what works for them, while discarding what was irrelevant.


senior - Do you not know anyone who currently home schools their children and provides them with a real life orientation to same rather than to the one that mandates how they learn and limits what they learn? My niece home schools and her son is HARDLY a carbon copy and unaware of the thinking and actions of others! Matter of fact, as a challenged individual - he is even more aware of the narrow mindedness and slings and arrows of many in our society! He says he has more compassion for those folks than he does for kids challenged as he is! Whaddya think about that for a home schooled 14 yr old?

CFrance
07-02-2014, 09:59 AM
Is that really what you think home schooling is?
It's a large part of it. There were many, many home schoolers in west MI. It was all in large part about isolating the children from society and the things they might pick up from other kids at school. Parts of the area (Holland, MI, for example) had entire neighborhoods of the same religion. If you weren't part of that, their kids were not allowed to play with you. Realtors warned us and others away from certain areas when we moved there in the late '80s. They were almost all Christian Reformed or other extremely conservative religions in that area.

I used to go to buy sheet music from a store that sold home-schooling materials. Frequently there would be mothers there with all of their children. It was like you just let your dog free on the beach. They didn't know how to act in public. And I knew adults who grew up in such social isolation and were raising their children in the same manner. Carbon copies.

IMO the only good thing that comes out of home schooling is possibly a better education.

OK, ready for the storm of protest... But this is my opinion from having lived in the midst of the situation.

graciegirl
07-02-2014, 10:07 AM
I think the saying I quoted means...That the most basic ideas of life: respect for others, doing what is responsible, making your own way, are instilled in children by the folks around them and who are loving them and teaching them when they are VERY young.

They may later change from Catholic to Protestant, From Democrat to Republican, from a golfer to a tennis player (OH GOD) from Religious to non religious, from non religious to religious, but it is very unlikely that they will become a crook, if they are raised by ethical parents.

But the name of the thread suggests that we should be talking about charitable acts rather than values in general.

We watched a report on TV this morning of a woman paying another woman's Walmart bill. I am not sure how I feel about that, other than the woman who did it is very kind. Is it the BEST way to help people? I don't know.

njbchbum
07-02-2014, 10:30 AM
It's a large part of it. There were many, many home schoolers in west MI. It was all in large part about isolating the children from society and the things they might pick up from other kids at school. Parts of the area (Holland, MI, for example) had entire neighborhoods of the same religion. If you weren't part of that, their kids were not allowed to play with you. Realtors warned us and others away from certain areas when we moved there in the late '80s. They were almost all Christian Reformed or other extremely conservative religions in that area.
snipped


CFrance - You mention the 1980's! Is your post based on the '80s or today? Mine is based on my niece's family in the Bible belt of the south today!

njbchbum
07-02-2014, 10:34 AM
snipped
We watched a report on TV this morning of a woman paying another woman's Walmart bill. I am not sure how I feel about that, other than the woman who did it is very kind. Is it the BEST way to help people? I don't know.

Does there have to be a BEST way or are we all better people if we simply practice the way the is RIGHT for us as individuals; thereby not limiting us to a singular BEST way and sharing a multitude of wonderful ways? I'm sure that's what you were thinking. :)

graciegirl
07-02-2014, 11:34 AM
Does there have to be a BEST way or are we all better people if we simply practice the way the is RIGHT for us as individuals; thereby not limiting us to a singular BEST way and sharing a multitude of wonderful ways? I'm sure that's what you were thinking. :)


It WAS. And your clarifiying it, makes me feel better about myself.

senior citizen
07-02-2014, 11:49 AM
senior - Do you not know anyone who currently home schools their children and provides them with a real life orientation to same rather than to the one that mandates how they learn and limits what they learn? My niece home schools and her son is HARDLY a carbon copy and unaware of the thinking and actions of others! Matter of fact, as a challenged individual - he is even more aware of the narrow mindedness and slings and arrows of many in our society! He says he has more compassion for those folks than he does for kids challenged as he is! Whaddya think about that for a home schooled 14 yr old?



""Well, we all did send our children to learn to think for themselves, didn't we?""

""If the idea was just to have a carbon copy of ourself""......


************************************************** ******************

I believe I was responding to the first part of the message; not necessarily the home schooling part..........

Overly strict parents can still send their kids to public school while raising them in a "vacuum" at home.......

Actually, I've only known one family that home schooled their five children........who all turned out beautifully......however, not sure if they are truly prepared for college........as music was the primary focus. They were devout Catholics, lived a rural existence and probably wanted to shelter them from the public school system. Very polite nice teenagers now. Very helpful.

Again, not that familiar with home schooling......

Your niece's son sounds like a remarkable young man.

In all fairness to us, when our two kids were at the university, both in their junior years.......they each wrote a letter to myself and my husband, thanking us for the way we raised them, saying that everything they achieved they owed to us.........and then again, similar notes were given to us at their weddings, thanking us for all the love and support we gave them growing up.......and for "staying together" when many of their friends came from broken homes. Both have achieved success in their careers and with their own families...........so I guess public schools were fine, even though they learned to "think for themselves".........let's put it that way. They knew they had a stable home life growing up, but we also gave them "wings" to fly..........a balancing act.

senior citizen
07-02-2014, 12:06 PM
I think the saying I quoted means...That the most basic ideas of life: respect for others, doing what is responsible, making your own way, are instilled in children by the folks around them and who are loving them and teaching them when they are VERY young.

They may later change from Catholic to Protestant, From Democrat to Republican, from a golfer to a tennis player (OH GOD) from Religious to non religious, from non religious to religious, but it is very unlikely that they will become a crook, if they are raised by ethical parents.

But the name of the thread suggests that we should be talking about charitable acts rather than values in general.

We watched a report on TV this morning of a woman paying another woman's Walmart bill. I am not sure how I feel about that, other than the woman who did it is very kind. Is it the BEST way to help people? I don't know.


We saw that t.v. spot as well.............

Our son and his wife often "pay it forward" when they are dining out and they see an elderly person or one in the armed forces, eating alone.......they quietly pay the bill for them, via the waiter.
They prefer to give to an individual rather than an institution.

His wife had a ramp built up to her side door, so a disabled friend of hers could visit in his mobility scooter and wheelchair.....an expense she needn't incur but did it out of the kindness of her heart.

Our son and his doctor friend traveled to Cambodia and Vietnam to deliver some scholarship money raised by the young "D's" (can't say the party)......had a difficult time finding the young girl's school per se......finally did.......it was a "floating raft school" run by Catholic priests.........an adventure for sure.


On other occasions he lived with "raft people" at a major lake area after climbing Macchu Picchu in Peru..........he's seen the poverty in our world.....as well as the riches. The poverty touches him deeply.

Ditto for our daughter. Just the other day, her family voluntarily pitched in to help out a family near them who needed to harvest their hay field.

She said it was VERY HOT WORK but was worthwhile and gave them a lot of satisfaction in helping the needy family...........pitch forking hay in 90 degree weather with high humidity is not a pleasant task, for sure........

Her 12 year old son, our beloved one and only grandson, traveled with a faith based group (out of his middle school/high school) to Nicaragua to teach English to the villagers..........quite the learning experience. The photos tell quite the story.......about the abundance we all live with here in the United States......compared to how many in Central America live. Do gooders, I guess.......meaning our "kids".

Again, all of our children are kind, giving, loving, helpful and highly intelligent plus well rounded.........and most of all happy. Good citizens of the U.S. and the world.

Cedwards38
07-02-2014, 12:24 PM
I agree with Buggy. All I care about is that they be responsible citizens and kind-hearted people who respect others' opinions. And that's what we got, and I think going to college helped them to further those qualities that we tried to model when they were growing up.

You have to let go. At some point they go on to be their own selves. We encouraged ours to leave the somewhat isolated, conservative community of west Michigan where kids stayed together from pre-school through college, and go find out that there were other types of people in the world. They took it and ran with it. I'm proud, but I miss them! Thank God for Skype.


[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

graciegirl
07-02-2014, 12:29 PM
We saw that t.v. spot as well.............

Our son and his wife often "pay it forward" when they are dining out and they see an elderly person or one in the armed forces, eating alone.......they quietly pay the bill for them, via the waiter.
They prefer to give to an individual rather than an institution.

His wife had a ramp built up to her side door, so a disabled friend of hers could visit in his mobility scooter and wheelchair.....an expense she needn't incur but did it out of the kindness of her heart.

Our son and his doctor friend traveled to Cambodia and Vietnam to deliver some scholarship money raised by the young "D's" (can't say the party)......had a difficult time finding the young girl's school per se......finally did.......it was a "floating raft school" run by Catholic priests.........an adventure for sure.


On other occasions he lived with "raft people" at a major lake area after climbing Macchu Picchu in Peru..........he's seen the poverty in our world.....as well as the riches. The poverty touches him deeply.

Ditto for our daughter. Just the other day, her family voluntarily pitched in to help out a family near them who needed to harvest their hay field.

She said it was VERY HOT WORK but was worthwhile and gave them a lot of satisfaction in helping the needy family...........pitch forking hay in 90 degree weather with high humidity is not a pleasant task, for sure........

Her 12 year old son, our beloved one and only grandson, traveled with a faith based group (out of his middle school/high school) to Nicaragua to teach English to the villagers..........quite the learning experience. The photos tell quite the story.......about the abundance we all live with here in the United States......compared to how many in Central America live. Do gooders, I guess.......meaning our "kids".

Again, all of our children are kind, giving, loving, helpful and highly intelligent plus well rounded.........and most of all happy. Good citizens of the U.S. and the world.


I can feel the pride you have in your children. I am so blessed to see the same beautiful trait in the people who are close to me. The children may not be similar to each other, but the beautiful emotion of parental love is. Sometimes our children change US to be more like them. That is the treasure to living to be this old.

CFrance
07-02-2014, 01:34 PM
CFrance - You mention the 1980's! Is your post based on the '80s or today? Mine is based on my niece's family in the Bible belt of the south today!

I'm not sure if the ban on playing with kids of other religions still holds true today, because we haven't been in the real estate market in that area since then. But the reasons for home schooling still hold true.

senior citizen
07-03-2014, 06:07 AM
I can feel the pride you have in your children. I am so blessed to see the same beautiful trait in the people who are close to me. The children may not be similar to each other, but the beautiful emotion of parental love is. Sometimes our children change US to be more like them. That is the treasure to living to be this old.


Yes, we all are fortunate to be able to take pride in our adult children as well as the grandchildren.....also, you are correct in saying that it is a treasure to live to experience it all.

Right now, after returning from two weeks in Colorado camping in the Rockies with her children, etc. etc......touring all the museums in Denver, etc, seeing baby goats being born at their uncle's home...........and after pitching the hay crop to help out a family who "barters" horseback riding for our grandchildren in Vermont, our daughter is now working on the next two months of hosting Chinese students from mainland China for a cultural exchange. It's just her "Summer Work Schedule" as she is the E.S.L. director of these exchange programs.......and teaches E.S.L. and E.L.L. during school year.


''This summer, Spiral International is hosting language and cultural programs for visiting Chinese students. As these programs draw ever closer, we are still in need of 13 host families plus 8 more. Hosting is a great way to support diversity in local education'''

Our grandchildren learn so much from these visiting foreign students each year..........

Mainland China (affluent families send their students to U.S.) to rural Vermont is quite a big sea change. Ditto for the host families and VT students......

I marvel at all of their "energy".......and ultimate rewarding experiences they all share. This generation of "youth" has made the world a smaller place, for sure.

senior citizen
07-03-2014, 06:32 AM
From: The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran


 
On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

dirtbanker
07-03-2014, 06:49 AM
I have seen kids from good parents (doing all the things good parents are expected to do and none of the things bad parents do) turn into terrible adults.

I have seen kids from bad parents (doing all the things bad parents do and none of the things good parents are expected to do) turn into terrific adults.

There is no exact recipe for a troubled or non troubled child, it is a good amount of luck (good or bad). If you were lucky enough to have good children that turned into terrific adults, be thankful you had some good luck.

I will let you guys get back to arguing which type of schooling is going to turn children into terrific adults. LOL.

graciegirl
07-03-2014, 07:40 AM
I want to argue about philosophical quotes.

I like most of what Bill Cosby has to say.

Bill Cosby Quotes - BrainyQuote (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/bill_cosby.html)

CFrance
07-03-2014, 08:04 AM
I have seen kids from good parents (doing all the things good parents are expected to do and none of the things bad parents do) turn into terrible adults.

I have seen kids from bad parents (doing all the things bad parents do and none of the things good parents are expected to do) turn into terrific adults.

There is no exact recipe for a troubled or non troubled child, it is a good amount of luck (good or bad). If you were lucky enough to have good children that turned into terrific adults, be thankful you had some good luck.

I will let you guys get back to arguing which type of schooling is going to turn children into terrific adults. LOL.
There are exceptions to everything. They don't disprove the standard.

Cedwards38
07-03-2014, 08:13 AM
It seems to me that when pundits refer to a college education as "indoctrination," we've reached another example of Orwellian Doublespeak. I don't want my girls to be clones of me. I want them to be intelligent and independent thinkers.

dirtbanker
07-03-2014, 08:28 AM
I always told my kids: "I don't want you to be just like me, I want you to be better than me.

dirtbanker
07-03-2014, 08:35 AM
I used to go to buy sheet music from a store that sold home-schooling materials. Frequently there would be mothers there with all of their children. It was like you just let your dog free on the beach. They didn't know how to act in public. And I knew adults who grew up in such social isolation and were raising their children in the same manner. Carbon copies.

I have witnessed many a number of non home - schooled (private and public schooled) children that appeared to be wild. Ideally we could discount that by stating:

There are exceptions to everything. They don't disprove the standard.:shocked:

Boudicca
08-19-2014, 02:52 PM
see my post "Villagers Generosity"