Poor condition of TV golf course greens

[marting163]

Why are the greens in TV the worst around? I'm told the same company takes care of all golf courses, is this true? The poa annua grass is taking over all the greens including the entire 9th green at Mira Mesa! The championship courses are almost unplayable to anyone with a single digit handicap or anyone that understands the ball needs to roll, not bounce to the hole! There is no reason TV greens should be in such poor shape, other than the fact that we are dumb enough to allow it!

[graciegirl]

...

[Tobys Dad]

Why are the greens in TV the worst around? I'm told the same company takes care of all golf courses, is this true? The poa annua grass is taking over all the greens including the entire 9th green at Mira Mesa! The championship courses are almost unplayable to anyone with a single digit handicap or anyone that understands the ball needs to roll, not bounce to the hole! There is no reason TV greens should be in such poor shape, other than the fact that we are dumb enough to allow it!

I agree with you. Only greens that are not horrible are on Palmer. :sing:

[rjn5656]

Send a letter to the person who manages the golf courses. His name is Eric. His email can be found on golfthevillages.com

If enough people start complaining, maybe he will do something

[collie1228]

Why are the greens in TV the worst around? I'm told the same company takes care of all golf courses, is this true? The poa annua grass is taking over all the greens including the entire 9th green at Mira Mesa! The championship courses are almost unplayable to anyone with a single digit handicap or anyone that understands the ball needs to roll, not bounce to the hole! There is no reason TV greens should be in such poor shape, other than the fact that we are dumb enough to allow it!

A couple of questions. How do you know TV greens "are the worst around"? Which local courses are you using for your comparison? Also, why are the greens unplayable to a single handicap golfer. I'll acknowledge I'm no single handicap, but I play the championship courses twice a week, and I know there are some problems, but never "unplayable". Interesting first post . . . .

[John_W]

I played Glenview about a month ago and a golfer in my group was a villager who works cutting grass at Lopez. He said this year to save money they switched brands in the chemicals they use to treat the greens and that is why all the greens are burned up. That's all the details he gave.

[graciegirl]

I find that the better a golfer is, the less he complains about course conditions. Your playing partners are playing that course at that time and have equal challenges.

Now why this is happening is very curious. And may be due to stinginess and may be due to lack of skill in caring for a golf course, and it may be due to overplaying. But I read with interest all that is said.

We knew when we moved here we were leaving the private country club life.

[Mikeod]

Send a letter to the person who manages the golf courses. His name is Eric. His email can be found on golfthevillages.com

If enough people start complaining, maybe he will do something

Eric VanGorder is the Director of Executive Golf Maintenance and is responsible for the executive courses north of 466 plus the Pimlico group. The courses south are the responsibility of GMS since they are still developer owned.

Eric is well aware of the course conditions and is no happier than you are about the greens. But there is no magic treatment that will accelerate growth. The important consideration is determining what precipitated the conditions in the first place and that has been undertaken. Some answers have been determined. One thing is that the overseed died out before the base bermuda had enough heat/sun to take over. That, coupled with the use of the large tines in aeration, resulted in a delayed recovery and bare spots. The use of the smaller tines on the four execs around Lopez resulted in better recovery.

[marting163]

I guess I should have been more clear when I posted " Why are the greens so bad " I meant why are they not given the care we deserve as villagers! To be "playable" a green needs to roll at an 8 on a meter, and they need rolled to be true. I guess the answer I'm going to be given is that Eric and the other greens keepers either don't know how to do their job or won't do it or aren't given the funds to do it. At least my money gets me new flowers every month at the turnabouts, what a joke golf is in TV.

[marting163]

I don't see an email link for Eric anywhere? Can you guide through the site or tell me where the link is?

[Barefoot]

...... what a joke golf is in TV.

It's only when we return to our northern home that I realize how great we have it in The Villages.

A choice of over 30 free golf courses, wow. :pepper2:

[Mikeod]

I don't see an email link for Eric anywhere? Can you guide through the site or tell me where the link is?

Go to golf thevillages.com and go the turf talk column. His address is there.

[Mikeod]

I guess I should have been more clear when I posted " Why are the greens so bad " I meant why are they not given the care we deserve as villagers! To be "playable" a green needs to roll at an 8 on a meter, and they need rolled to be true. I guess the answer I'm going to be given is that Eric and the other greens keepers either don't know how to do their job or won't do it or aren't given the funds to do it. At least my money gets me new flowers every month at the turnabouts, what a joke golf is in TV.

When, and on what course/green, did you take these readings?

This year has seen green conditions poorer than previous years. In an effort to repair the greens, I believe they have avoided cutting them as low as normal so they are slower than they will be. Conditions are improving, but it will not happen overnight.

Anyone who tells you that Eric doesn't know how to maintain a golf course or won't do it, or doesn't have the funds to do it is stating an opinion not supported by facts. Remember, Eric's responsibility is to the executive courses north of 466, not the championship courses. For those, you need to contact GMS. Remember the championship courses are not part of your amenities. They are privately owned.

[Indy-Guy]

I guess I should have been more clear when I posted " Why are the greens so bad " I meant why are they not given the care we deserve as villagers! To be "playable" a green needs to roll at an 8 on a meter, and they need rolled to be true. I guess the answer I'm going to be given is that Eric and the other greens keepers either don't know how to do their job or won't do it or aren't given the funds to do it. At least my money gets me new flowers every month at the turnabouts, what a joke golf is in TV.

As I read your post I wonder if you know what the name is of the meter or measuring device you are referring to and do you know what the number 8 equates to.

You describe it as a meter and you describe it as it needs to roll an 8 to be playable. The 8 that you are referring to is 8 feet and the name of the meter or measuring device is the Stimpmeter. Perhaps you forgot to inform those who may have had no clue what you were talking about.

Below is an explanation of the Stimpmeter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2sbeRMnU_0

Stimpmeter: The Device for Measuring Green Speeds in Golf (http://golf.about.com/cs/golfterms/g/bldef_stimpmete.htm)

STIMP METER (http://www.leaderboard.com/GLOSSARY_STIMPMETER)

[JGVillages]

I have played in a 20+ player group of golfers with a handicap range of scratch to 6 for 8 1/2 years. Golfers who moved to The Villages that were "Country Club" members elsewhere would soon find out that course conditions in TV were considerably inferior to where they came from. With that said most of the golfers in TV did not experience the "finer conditions" before moving here so they don't know what they are missing and don't care. Played Palmer today and the fairways are a mixture of thin grass & mud. For myself and our group the conditions in TV in general are probably 5 on a 1-10 scale. TV does such a fabulous job of giving us great, well maintained amenities (to include the Clubhouses and Pro Shops) in everything they do, it is too bad that they can't continue that standard to the maintenance of the golf courses.

[JGVillages]

I am a single digit handicap and I agree the greens are not unplayable but try the greens at: World Woods, Red Tail, Juliette Falls, Deer Island, Mission Inn, just to name a few. Also try the fairways because it is fun to hit off actual fairway grass. Summer rates at these courses is usually $40 or less and sometimes lunch is included. I don't plan to ever leave TV because of all the other great activities it offers, but because of yearly cost increases to play championship golf and the yearly decrease in championship course conditions I find pickle Ball a great distraction, with great court conditions!

[srixongolf1197]

You see how bad the courses are in The Villages when you go to a proper good track. Today I played Golden Ocala they airified their greens at the beginning of the week and today they were better than any putting surface here in The Villages amazing what having a knowledgeable Super and staff can do...and don't reply private course vs public course, they get less play than the Village Courses, water restrictions, different grass growing seasons, have to be patient for the greens to come back people need to stop making excuses...Course conditions here are Substandard its just that simple somebody is not doing their job but they know that everyday the tee times will be filled because people just don't know any better so why change.

[nitehawk]

It's only when we return to our northern home that I realize how great we have it in The Villages.

A choice of over 30 free golf courses, wow. :pepper2:

only when i return from up north that i realize how bad the courses in tv are

[Cisco Kid]

...

...:a20:

[nitehawk]

I find that the better a golfer is, the less he complains about course conditions. Your playing partners are playing that course at that time and have equal challenges.

Now why this is happening is very curious. And may be due to stinginess and may be due to lack of skill in caring for a golf course, and it may be due to overplaying. But I read with interest all that is said.

We knew when we moved here we were leaving the private country club life.
You now have 9 cc

[RErmer]

I guess I should have been more clear when I posted " Why are the greens so bad " I meant why are they not given the care we deserve as villagers! To be "playable" a green needs to roll at an 8 on a meter, and they need rolled to be true. I guess the answer I'm going to be given is that Eric and the other greens keepers either don't know how to do their job or won't do it or aren't given the funds to do it. At least my money gets me new flowers every month at the turnabouts, what a joke golf is in TV.

Sounds like you're very unhappy with The Villages. I for one love the flowers and greatly enjoy my golf here. The courses here (IMHO) are in as good or better condition than the courses I was playing in South Florida before moving here - at half or less the cost!

[mickey100]

Many of us have experienced better courses up north and outside the Villages. Why the greens and conditions here are so poor, to the point of being an embarrassment, is anyone's guess. We keep getting the same excuses year after year. It becomes a game of trying to keep track of which courses are decent at any given time and trying to get a tee time there.

[graciegirl]

///

[Baboon]

I have noticed a dramatic decline in the golf course conditions over the past few years that most people here have apparently observed while prices continue to climb.

I have also noticed that the area has gone through consecutive drought years. The drought reduces the water levels which results in water with higher concentrations of sulfur and other elements or compounds that lead to acidic water which is not good for lush fairways and greens.

Also exacerbating this situation was the build-out south of 466a. Courses such as Bonifay were opened without the necessary water resources, which lead to, among other things, the near death of Bonifay fairways and greens within months of opening; and also to the diversion of water from Cane Garden, Mallory, and others to aid Bonifay.

We have had a very wet month so far this July, but we need a lot more. We need a low-wind, tropical system to sit on us for a while.

[mickey100]

How do you know they divert water from one course to another?

[mulligan]

There is a well/pump house between Palmetto and Evans Prarie adjacent to 466A. This deep artesian well was drilled to supplement the stormwater/runoff/ grey water used for course and common area irrigation. Seems to work quite well.

[waynet]

I will continue to blame management for the poor conditions. Water or lack of it will always be an issue,so why do es management continue to plant grass that needs lots of water and needs aeration twice a year when almost all other golf courses are going to the new champions bermuda for their greens. Tierra Del Sol would have been a perfect place to at least try something new. Instead it closes for 8 months and nothing changes. I just don't think they know what they are doing and the things that they di do only are short term fixes otherwise there would not be 4 different threads dealing with the poor conditions of the golf courses.

[JGVillages]

Management stated to a friend of mine that because some of the new (and obviously superior) strains of grass requiring different maintenance it would be to confusing for the maintenance staff to handle. DA!!!!! Personally I would not hire these maintenance people to do my lawn unless I was trying to kill it!

[dbussone]

I will continue to blame management for the poor conditions. Water or lack of it will always be an issue,so why do es management continue to plant grass that needs lots of water and needs aeration twice a year when almost all other golf courses are going to the new champions bermuda for their greens. Tierra Del Sol would have been a perfect place to at least try something new. Instead it closes for 8 months and nothing changes. I just don't think they know what they are doing and the things that they di do only are short term fixes otherwise there would not be 4 different threads dealing with the poor conditions of the golf courses.


In the case of Tierra del Sol, an ambassador told me staff were told by the people that put in the new greens that the new greens should not be over seeded this past winter. Golf management overruled that instruction and the poor status of the current greens is the result. Apparently the grass of the new greens had difficulty competing with the grass used for over seeding.

I can speculate that the decision to override the recommendation not to overseed may have been made to present more colorful greens during Season.

[The Mountaineer]

I know I'm an outsider, but I plan to play golf in The Villages for three months when Paula and I rent a home on Rainbow Drive (off Silver Lake's No. 5 green) for three months in January-March 2015, so maybe I qualify to comment.

When I played the greens in December 2014 during our two-week test drive of The Villages, my ball bounced more than any green that I play in Ohio -- or West Virginia, for that matter.

Greens should be smooth so that the line is true. If the golfer putts accurately the ball should go in or be close to the hole, and not be bounced off track to the right or left, or even toward the sky.

The Villages' greens that I experienced need a lot of improvement. I don't expect country club greens, but certainly greens that match the public courses in Ohio. But I do think The Villages' management should take enough pride in what is a fabulous collection of villages to make the greens smooth enough to roll true. I don't know what the problem is, and that's the greenkeeper's job to figure out whether it's the way the grass grows, or doesn't, or how the greens are rolled when they are mowed, to keep everything as flat as possible

But there's one truism in golf. A putt should NOT be kicked off course by the way the green is kept up, or not kept up, any more than a putt should be detoured by an inconsiderate golfer not fixing his ball-landing pockmarks. We'll all in this to enjoy the golf, and each other's company.

The folks who are worth $2.5 billion running The Villages should pay attention to this problem. It's the ONLY area I found wanting during my admittedly short visit. Everything else is first class in The Villages. So why can't the greens be first classs? Excuses don't fix greens. Time, money and expertise do.

[Bogie Shooter]

Management stated to a friend of mine that because some of the new (and obviously superior) strains of grass requiring different maintenance it would be to confusing for the maintenance staff to handle. DA!!!!! Personally I would not hire these maintenance people to do my lawn unless I was trying to kill it!

Hearsay?

[dbussone]

I played Harbor Hills today. Fairways were great. Greens just aerated and were terrible. $22 for 18 holes. Lunch was very good.

[folkh]

I guess I should have been more clear when I posted " Why are the greens so bad " I meant why are they not given the care we deserve as villagers! To be "playable" a green needs to roll at an 8 on a meter, and they need rolled to be true. I guess the answer I'm going to be given is that Eric and the other greens keepers either don't know how to do their job or won't do it or aren't given the funds to do it. At least my money gets me new flowers every month at the turnabouts, what a joke golf is in TV.

I just played Lopez, Glenview, Mallory and Palmer. Not a great golfer but not bad shoot mid 80's. What are you use to playing it certainly cannot be public courses up North!! The only thing that compares to the courses I have played in The Villages are private courses up north. Please take a chill pill and enjoy the wonderful life you are living.

[Barefoot]

So why can't the greens be first classs? Excuses don't fix greens. Time, money and expertise do.

Are you suggesting that our amenities be increased so more money can be spent on improving golf courses?

[JGVillages]

Don't know what private courses you played up north but Where we lived (Wisconsin) My course and the Private courses in our district had greens that stimped no less that 8 and usually around 10. The fairways had healthy grass and the fringes of the greens were always shorter than the rough adjoining them. If these basic standards were not met the superintendent would be gone. I played about 3 times a week and still do. My dues up north and what I pay here for Priority and green fees were very close. Considering my past Golf Club experiences I just like to get what I pay for. By the way: Outside of golf, everything else The Villages does is first class and I wish that standard would apply to the Golf Division.

[fred53]

Don't know what private courses you played up north but Where we lived (Wisconsin) My course and the Private courses in our district had greens that stimped no less that 8 and usually around 10. The fairways had healthy grass and the fringes of the greens were always shorter than the rough adjoining them. If these basic standards were not met the superintendent would be gone. I played about 3 times a week and still do. My dues up north and what I pay here for Priority and green fees were very close. Considering my past Golf Club experiences I just like to get what I pay for. By the way: Outside of golf, everything else The Villages does is first class and I wish that standard would apply to the Golf Division.

and it would be a nice bonus where you get your information. Having worked on courses since the early 70's(private and public)the speed of greens has no bearing on how good they are....neither do fringe, fairway or rough length....those are "basics" made up by watching and listening to television telecasts of professional golf.

Please don't ever visit the wonderful local courses overseas....you'd think you were robbed blind...myself? I loved the variation and talent it takes to adapt.

[dbussone]

and it would be a nice bonus where you get your information. Having worked on courses since the early 70's(private and public)the speed of greens has no bearing on how good they are....neither do fringe, fairway or rough length....those are "basics" made up by watching and listening to television telecasts of professional golf.

Please don't ever visit the wonderful local courses overseas....you'd think you were robbed blind...myself? I loved the variation and talent it takes to adapt.


If we had "talent" we'd be pros. "Choke!"

[waynet]

the speeds of greens, and the conditions of the fairways,rough and fringes all are factors in how good a golf course is. There are other factors of course but to say that these do not matter is not correct.

[graciegirl]

the speeds of greens, and the conditions of the fairways,rough and fringes all are factors in how good a golf course is. There are other factors of course but to say that these do not matter is not correct.


but it all boils down to how good YOU are.

[mickey100]

I know I'm an outsider, but I plan to play golf in The Villages for three months when Paula and I rent a home on Rainbow Drive (off Silver Lake's No. 5 green) for three months in January-March 2015, so maybe I qualify to comment.

When I played the greens in December 2014 during our two-week test drive of The Villages, my ball bounced more than any green that I play in Ohio -- or West Virginia, for that matter.

Greens should be smooth so that the line is true. If the golfer putts accurately the ball should go in or be close to the hole, and not be bounced off track to the right or left, or even toward the sky.

The Villages' greens that I experienced need a lot of improvement. I don't expect country club greens, but certainly greens that match the public courses in Ohio. But I do think The Villages' management should take enough pride in what is a fabulous collection of villages to make the greens smooth enough to roll true. I don't know what the problem is, and that's the greenkeeper's job to figure out whether it's the way the grass grows, or doesn't, or how the greens are rolled when they are mowed, to keep everything as flat as possible

But there's one truism in golf. A putt should NOT be kicked off course by the way the green is kept up, or not kept up, any more than a putt should be detoured by an inconsiderate golfer not fixing his ball-landing pockmarks. We'll all in this to enjoy the golf, and each other's company.

The folks who are worth $2.5 billion running The Villages should pay attention to this problem. It's the ONLY area I found wanting during my admittedly short visit. Everything else is first class in The Villages. So why can't the greens be first classs? Excuses don't fix greens. Time, money and expertise do.


Good post. There are so many comments from a wide variety of posters, people who rarely if ever post, regarding the poor conditions of the greens and the courses themselves. Whether or not someone is a 3 handicap or a 33 handicap is irrelevant. The Villages markets itself as a golfing community and we bought with the understanding that we'd have decent golfing conditions. As others have said, why is this occurring? The Villages manages to get most everything right, with a few exceptions, so you'd think golf, which is a priority for a lot of residents, would be great too. But its far from it.

[graciegirl]

Anyone know how Orange Blossom Hills is coming along?

It is supposed to reopen this fall. Wonder if some of the new homes will be built and the restaurant leased?

[Grill Meister]

I agree with you regarding the greens, as well as the courses in toto. I firmly believe that Golf Management Systems (GMS), which controls all of the courses, championship and executive as well, contracts out to landscapers, not greens keeping companies that know how to maintain a golf course. I am also told by one of the employees with the maintenance companies, that GMS dictates to the contractors the amount of money that will be spent on maintaining the greens. He told me that the latest professional greens keeper companies (1 Source) complained to GMS that they were not allowed to do a quality job at the price dictated.....they are now gone.

[Grill Meister]

The executive courses are NOT owned by the "developer". They owned by the various CD Districts.

[Mikeod]

The executive courses are NOT owned by the "developer". They owned by the various CD Districts.
Depends on which courses you are talking about. All courses north of 466 plus the Pimlico group are owned by the central CDDs (VCCDD or SLCDD). The other courses are still owned by the developer. When the IRS situation is finally settled, the amenities south of 466, including the executive courses, will be sold to the central CDDs.

The residential CDDs will not own the courses.

[mdticket]

Depends on which courses you are talking about. All courses north of 466 plus the Pimlico group are owned by the central CDDs (VCCDD or SLCDD). The other courses are still owned by the developer. When the IRS situation is finally settled, the amenities south of 466, including the executive courses, will be sold to the central CDDs.

The residential CDDs will not own the courses.
Not true!

[Mikeod]

Not true!

Please provide your source because what I posted is what I have been told by district personnel and GMS personnel.

From the District website:

The Executive Golf Trail consists of over 30 courses and growing every year. While the Country Clubs are owned and operated by the developer of The Villages, the Executive Golf Trail courses are owned and operated by the Village Center Community Development District and the Sumter Landing Community Development District.

I recently had a discussion with Eric VanGorder, Director of Executive Golf Maintenance, that involved his role with the courses south of 466. He informed me that he has a cooperative relationship with GMS regarding maintenance, but they have primary responsibility for the courses until the developer transfers them to the district. That should occur when the IRS question is resolved and bonds can be issued by the central districts to purchase the amenities.

[janmcn]

Not true!

What is not true? Please explain

[jdguscinski]

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY concur! I moved here, within the last 12 months, from southern Michigan. Last I knew there were over 20 public courses in the county I resided in. I played most of them, some frequently. NONE of them were in as poor condition as ALL the course in the Villages - championship or executive. Even the worst courses, the ones we avoided unless we had to, had grass on the greens and you got a true roll on a putt. Some fairway and tees could be choppy, but even those are better than NO grass! I can't figure out why any of us pay to play the championship courses, in their current condition (but I still do it)......

[jdguscinski]

and it would be a nice bonus where you get your information. Having worked on courses since the early 70's(private and public)the speed of greens has no bearing on how good they are....neither do fringe, fairway or rough length....those are "basics" made up by watching and listening to television telecasts of professional golf.

Please don't ever visit the wonderful local courses overseas....you'd think you were robbed blind...myself? I loved the variation and talent it takes to adapt.
I'd love to putt on greens that stimped at 5. That would mean they actually had grass on them!!! You are missing the point, we want grass on 100% of the greens and fairways. After that we can figure out how short they should be mowed. I think a whole lot higher than they mow them today, since they are so short that the ball simply sits on dirt!

[jdguscinski]

but it all boils down to how good YOU are.
You are missing the point. We expect "some" value for what we pay for. We pay for the executive courses (whether you play them or not) and we pay more when we golf on the championship courses. Are we wrong to expect grass to actually be cultivated on them?

[nitehawk]

post reviews on public media ......posting your views on tv does nothing .... calling management does nothing start giving the views on public websites so the public will be aware of the poor golf course conditions at the villages.

[graciegirl]

post reviews on public media ......posting your views on tv does nothing .... calling management does nothing start giving the views on public websites so the public will be aware of the poor golf course conditions at the villages.

Just read that the courses are much better.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/golf-villages-216/championship-exec-greens-tv-118148/