Why do we get old and die?

[Villages PL]

I'm reading a book about this: "Long for This World: The Strange Science of Immortality".

There are many contributing factors as to why we get old and die. But, basically, I believe it happens very gradually on a cellular level. As we get older, our cells become less and less able to clean and rebuild themselves. Garbage builds up and doesn't get cleaned out. Dead cells sit there and don't get replaced. Crosslinking stiffens us and makes us creaky. Our arteries and brains get clogged with gunk.

Many scientists are now working on solving some of these problems - how to clean out the debris. It may turn out to be a microorganism that's needed to eat the gunk but it won't be easy because it needs to be specific and not eat everything in sight. :)

At any rate, it's an interesting read and I may add more to this thread as time goes on.

Feel free to add any thoughts you may have on this subject.

[KARENNN]

As far as the "gunk theory", I think finding ways to make the cells live longer and function more efficiently should be the goal. Prevent the gunk rather than try to deal with it after it happens.

[Carl in Tampa]

Trying to achieve "immortality" or significantly longer lives through science is an interesting subject.

However, living to an extremely old age has its down side, which was a subtle subtext to the movie The Green Mile, in which various characters were murdered, and legally executed.

The principal character, a jail guard, was shown to live to an age where all of his contemporary friends and acquaintances died, and generations of his new friends had died as well. These losses were painful to him. He appeared to long for death himself rather than experience more of these painful losses.

This causes one to reflect on how long a life is desirable. I have already outlived almost all of the roughly seventy-five deputy sheriffs who I worked with in the 1960s.

[TheVillageChicken]

If science could achieve universal doubling of life expectancy, famine and starvation would eventually nullify that accomplishment.

[jblum315]

We get old and die because if we didn't there would be way too many people on earth.

[Blessed2BNTV]

I believe it is God's plan. Grow old, body breaks down and we yearn to go to our forever home....and that's NOT in The Villages, which is our forever home for too short of a time!

[mrbgull]

Amen

[Carl in Tampa]

I believe it is God's plan. Grow old, body breaks down and we yearn to go to our forever home....and that's NOT in The Villages, which is our forever home for too short of a time!

Genesis Chapter 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

THAT'S why we die. No amount of science is going to change that.


.

[kittygilchrist]

Trying to achieve "immortality" or significantly longer lives through science is an interesting subject.

However, living to an extremely old age has its down side, which was a subtle subtext to the movie The Green Mile, in which various characters were murdered, and legally executed.

The principal character, a jail guard, was shown to live to an age where all of his contemporary friends and acquaintances died, and generations of his new friends had died as well. These losses were painful to him. He appeared to long for death himself rather than experience more of these painful losses.

This causes one to reflect on how long a life is desirable. I have already outlived almost all of the roughly seventy-five deputy sheriffs who I worked with in the 1960s.

And still doing good on earth. Bless you now and I will see you in glory.

Ps I did mental health in youth camp when green mile came out. Love films with redemption.

[Steve & Deanna]

Why do we get old and die? Nobody is getting out alive. I just read an interesting article about a Hollywood icon....Clint Eastwood.....who has directed thirteen films since hitting the age of 70 in 2000. His latest film (American Sniper based on Chris Kyle's novel) will be coming out next year. When asked about his longevity, his quote was 'I never let the old man in.' Words to live by.

[kittygilchrist]

Genesis Chapter 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

THAT'S why we die. No amount of science is going to change that.


.

I agree. God created man to be immortal. Man was not happy and chose to rebel.

[BarryRX]

While I appreciate the biblical references for why we get old and die, science has a different explanation. At the end of our DNA we have telomere chains. As we age, the length of telomere chains becomes shorter. Eventually the telomeres become so short that cell replication produces lethal errors or missing pieces in the DNA sequence, ending the cell's ability to replace itself. This point, when the cell has lost vital DNA code and cannot reproduce, is called the Hayflick limit. It's the measure of how many times a cell can copy itself before it dies.

Some cells in our body have a very high hayflick limit. Cells that line the inside of your mouth and intestines, for example, are constantly being worn away and replaced. Indeed these cells appear to have the ability to regrow telomeres. Other cells do not do such a good job of replacing themselves. These have a low hay flick limit.

[kittygilchrist]

While I appreciate the biblical references for why we get old and die, science has a different explanation. At the end of our DNA we have telomere chains. As we age, the length of telomere chains becomes shorter. Eventually the telomeres become so short that cell replication produces lethal errors or missing pieces in the DNA sequence, ending the cell's ability to replace itself. This point, when the cell has lost vital DNA code and cannot reproduce, is called the Hayflick limit. It's the measure of how many times a cell can copy itself before it dies.

Some cells in our body have a very high hayflick limit. Cells that line the inside of your mouth and intestines, for example, are constantly being worn away and replaced. Indeed these cells appear to have the ability to regrow telomeres. Other cells do not do such a good job of replacing themselves. These have a low hay flick limit.

On short look, I do not see a lot of research to back this up. One article said that cancer cells do not get shorter on reproduction due to telomeres while normal cells do get shorter and thus lack infinite quality. Makes no sense...what am I missing?

[BarryRX]

On short look, I do not see a lot of research to back this up. One article said that cancer cells do not get shorter on reproduction due to telomeres while normal cells do get shorter and thus lack infinite quality. Makes no sense...what am I missing?

You are missing info about an important enzyme called teleromase. It controls the production of telomeres on the ends of our DNA. As we age, we produce less and less of this enzyme. Usually, when a cell replicates incorrectly, the error will prevent the cell copying itself again. But with cancer, cells with errors can "turn on" the production of telomerase and make the mutant cell immortal. Now, aberrant cells can reproduce unchecked and outlive normal cells. This is the process that creates tumors. Of course, as we do more and more research our understanding of this may grow or even change. That's the beauty of science. It's always challenging and testing it's own assumptions.

[NottaVillager]

Genesis Chapter 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

THAT'S why we die. No amount of science is going to change that.


.
Amen and thank-you.

[Villages PL]

As far as the "gunk theory", I think finding ways to make the cells live longer and function more efficiently should be the goal. Prevent the gunk rather than try to deal with it after it happens.

According to the author, the gunk starts building up from the earliest stage of life, although it may not be too noticeable in the beginning. It was said that the process of aging is set down from the very beginning.

Perhaps a way has been found to make cells live longer but, so far, I haven't come across any mention of it in this book. You might try searching: Dr. Dean Ornish, telomers and telomerase. According to Dr. Ornish, healthy lifestyle changes can increase telomerase and telomers so that cells can continue to replace themselves. Further studies will likely be needed to confirm this. However, in the mean time, I see no harm in practicing his recommended lifestyle.

[Villages PL]

Trying to achieve "immortality" or significantly longer lives through science is an interesting subject.

However, living to an extremely old age has its down side, which was a subtle subtext to the movie The Green Mile, in which various characters were murdered, and legally executed.

The principal character, a jail guard, was shown to live to an age where all of his contemporary friends and acquaintances died, and generations of his new friends had died as well. These losses were painful to him. He appeared to long for death himself rather than experience more of these painful losses.

This causes one to reflect on how long a life is desirable. I have already outlived almost all of the roughly seventy-five deputy sheriffs who I worked with in the 1960s.

That's a good point. I have read about people who outlived all their children. It does happen. But suppose scientists come up with solutions to keep people living longer. That means everyone will live longer, including your friends. But for those who have already lost their friends, there's no turning back the clock.

Actually, this has already happened. There was a time when people only lived to about age 20. Then, much later, it was age 40. Now it's about 79?
Why should we now think that we have reached the upper limit?

[Villages PL]

If science could achieve universal doubling of life expectancy, famine and starvation would eventually nullify that accomplishment.

There has always been "famine and starvation", even thousands of years ago when the population was a lot less. But as a population grows and gets older, people seem to reproduce less.

Look at what's happening in Japan and other countries. As the average age of the population increases, they complain that there are not enough births. It seems that, somehow, nature might have a hand in this. Just as when there are wars, more males than females are born. It's automatic.

[billethkid]

during peace sons bury their fathers; during war fathers bury their sons.

[Villages PL]

We get old and die because if we didn't there would be way too many people on earth.

The author talked about different theories of why we get old and die, and it was decided that overpopulation is not the reason.

The reason: From the begining natural selection could not select for longevity. What was selected for? Those who were fit to live long enough to reproduce.
Then, once you reproduced, you were disposable.

[kittygilchrist]

The author talked about different theories of why we get old and die, and it was decided that overpopulation is not the reason.

The reason: From the begining natural selection could not select for longevity. What was selected for? Those who were fit to live long enough to reproduce.
Then, once you reproduced, you were disposable.

If the created could tell the creator how they should made, we could call the shots on immortality.
Just saying, the creator offers eternal life in a plan intended to confound those who think they are wise. It's a good and timely question.

[rubicon]

While I appreciate the biblical references for why we get old and die, science has a different explanation. At the end of our DNA we have telomere chains. As we age, the length of telomere chains becomes shorter. Eventually the telomeres become so short that cell replication produces lethal errors or missing pieces in the DNA sequence, ending the cell's ability to replace itself. This point, when the cell has lost vital DNA code and cannot reproduce, is called the Hayflick limit. It's the measure of how many times a cell can copy itself before it dies.

Some cells in our body have a very high hayflick limit. Cells that line the inside of your mouth and intestines, for example, are constantly being worn away and replaced. Indeed these cells appear to have the ability to regrow telomeres. Other cells do not do such a good job of replacing themselves. These have a low hay flick limit.

BarryRX: You are quoting Dr.Andrew Weil. I like the Adam and Eve story better more sex shorter telomeres, less sex longer telomeres....end of story

[Shimpy]

Genesis Chapter 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
.


Did she really talk to a snake???? I know people talk to their pet dogs and cats, but a wild snake? Thats funny.

[KeepingItReal]

There was a time when people only lived to about age 20. Then, much later, it was age 40. Now it's about 79?
Why should we now think that we have reached the upper limit?

Psalms Chapter 90
10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Hebrews Chapter 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[BarryRX]

BarryRX: You are quoting Dr.Andrew Weil. I like the Adam and Eve story better more sex shorter telomeres, less sex longer telomeres....end of story

Actually I was trying to paraphrase a study done about 5 years ago by molecular biologist Elizabeth Blackburn. There is also a more recent study about Telomere length in some long lived sea birds, but I don't recall the conclusions. I like the Adam and Eve story too...it's a fine story!

[NottaVillager]

If the created could tell the creator how they should made, we could call the shots on immortality.
Just saying, the creator offers eternal life in a plan intended to confound those who think they are wise. It's a good and timely question.
Jesus and the prophets often pointed out that "man's knowledge before God is foolishness".

[Villages PL]

The author, mentioned in my opening post, is a science writer and describes how some, like Aubrey de Gray are thinking of aging as a curable disease. And Aubrey has a list of seven deadly things that need to be worked on.
Here is his list:

1) molecules grow tangled and stiff, they are called cross-links

2) mitochondria in the cells fail with age

3) junk collects inside cells

4) junk collects between cells

5) some cells get old and dysfunctional but don't get replaced

6) some cells die and poison other nearby cells

7) cell mutations (in genes) bring forth new cells that build tumors

God gave gerontologists the brains to study the problems of aging and to seek solutions for those problems. God bless biologists, gerontologists and others who try to make life better and, at the same time, more interesting.

Do hear an "amen"? Amen! :eclipsee_gold_cup:

[Villages PL]

Actually I was trying to paraphrase a study done about 5 years ago by molecular biologist Elizabeth Blackburn. There is also a more recent study about Telomere length in some long lived sea birds, but I don't recall the conclusions. I like the Adam and Eve story too...it's a fine story!

Elizabeth Blackburn and Dean Ornish, MD, worked on a study together. It was based on lifestyle changes such as diet, exercise and stress reduction. The result was: Study participants showed a 29% rise in telomerase. And there was something about DNA repair or telomere lengthening.

Search: Lifestyle Changes May Lengthen Telomeres, A Measure of Cell Aging

[rubicon]

Actually I was trying to paraphrase a study done about 5 years ago by molecular biologist Elizabeth Blackburn. There is also a more recent study about Telomere length in some long lived sea birds, but I don't recall the conclusions. I like the Adam and Eve story too...it's a fine story!

BarryRX Dr. Weil was, in his early years, ahead of his time a new age hippie really knew his chemicals and I mean that in every sense.

His, and others research do make sense and cancer cells if they could be re-engineered so as to have a constructive vis a vis destructive growth would advance these study 10 fold.

I do believe that scientist will be able to extend a man's life ( I am not sure about women :D) but it will come at a cost simply because living is a series of trade offs. As for population explosions well man has always adjusted i.e necessity is the mother of invention/technology

[CFrance]

That's a good point. I have read about people who outlived all their children. It does happen. But suppose scientists come up with solutions to keep people living longer. That means everyone will live longer, including your friends. But for those who have already lost their friends, there's no turning back the clock.

Actually, this has already happened. There was a time when people only lived to about age 20. Then, much later, it was age 40. Now it's about 79?
Why should we now think that we have reached the upper limit?
My doctor says 88 for women and 83 for men. That doesn't make me very happy. I surely do not want to outlive my very best friend on this earth.

[senior citizen]

　
................

[senior citizen]

...........

[Chi-Town]

Here is an explanation from Blade Runner:

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=i%20want%20more%20life%20father&sm=1

Try this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNprUC1ncko.

[rubicon]

Mortality, morbidity, popularity, anti-aging formulas and every lasting peace all have two things in common they are huge money makers, until they are not then pulled off the market for a time to be recycled for the next generation. Barnum was right.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Genesis Chapter 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

THAT'S why we die. No amount of science is going to change that.


.

This is correct

[Taltarzac725]

Trying to achieve "immortality" or significantly longer lives through science is an interesting subject.

However, living to an extremely old age has its down side, which was a subtle subtext to the movie The Green Mile, in which various characters were murdered, and legally executed.

The principal character, a jail guard, was shown to live to an age where all of his contemporary friends and acquaintances died, and generations of his new friends had died as well. These losses were painful to him. He appeared to long for death himself rather than experience more of these painful losses.

This causes one to reflect on how long a life is desirable. I have already outlived almost all of the roughly seventy-five deputy sheriffs who I worked with in the 1960s.

I had not caught that subtle subtext in the movie The Green Mile or do not remember it having seen too many vampire movies that cover the same idea. I did read the Stephen King books as they came out much of that time spent near Palo Alto house-sitting and mixing with Stanford students, driving cross country from SF to Tampa, and settling in FL in Palm Harbor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Mile_(novel)

[Villages PL]

If the created could tell the creator how they should made, we could call the shots on immortality.
Just saying, the creator offers eternal life in a plan intended to confound those who think they are wise. It's a good and timely question.

It could be that we have been working on immortality for a long time and it was just called something else. When antibiotics were first developed I'm sure they didn't say that it put us one step closer to immortality. Every medical discovery that came along was just praised as something to improve life. No one gave it a thought that, at some point in the future, all these discoveries combined might add up to immortality.

Almost every known disease is being worked on by scientists who are trying to find a cure. Did anyone ever stop to think what would happen if, one by one, they were all successful? What if they find a cure for Alzheimer's? I suppose everyone would be very happy about it, as long as they were sure that we would only live a little longer and then die from some other disease, like cancer.

[Nightengale212]

My doctor says 88 for women and 83 for men. That doesn't make me very happy. I surely do not want to outlive my very best friend on this earth.

When I was age 44 my first husband age 49 died suddenly from a massive heart attack. Even if my husband died at age 89 instead of 49 I would have still said I wish we had more time together :(

[Villages PL]

By Villages PL: Yes, indeed, it won't be easy. I posted a list of seven deadly things that need to be worked on. Aubrey de Grey, who was written about in the book on immortality, found theoretical solutions to the first six rather quickly. The seventh was cancer which took a lot longer but he finally came up with a possible solution. Some may gasp when they here this.

I'll try to explain this as best I can from memory: First, he thinks it's necessary to get rid of all the telomerase in the human body because that's what makes cancer cells immortal. How could that be done? According to him, it would require the removal of a single gene that's responsible for supplying telomerase enzyme. Then, once that gene is removed, a person would need perhaps months of a very long and harsh chemotherapy treatment to make sure their system is "clean" (free of telomerase and any stray cancer cells that might be in their system).

Then to enable all the other cells to keep dividing (without telomerase to keep telomeres lengthened) he calls for laboratory engineered stem-cells to be injected into the body. And this would need to be done periodically, perhaps once every ten years or so. And there was something else about a bone marrow transplant that might have had something to do with producing the stem cells.

None of the above procedures have been developed yet but he estimates that they could become a reality in about 10 to 20 years. Aubrey is the idea man behind the book and he himself does not really believe in immortality. But he says that man might be able to live for about 1,000 years.

The drawbacks: 1) It could be very expensive and 2) who wants to be dependent on these procedures?

As I kept reading the book, I eventually found a whole chapter on what the drawbacks might be to living a long life (like 1,000 years). Basically, it was mostly one thing: Boredom!!! Stop and think what you would do if you could live 1,000 years. You can only be interested in something for so long. You would run out of hobbies that interest you. How long could you be interested in one marriage partner? You might remarry a dozen times or more. Your looooooooong term investments would give you a net worth of 500 billion and you would have bought everything that you ever wanted, and you would be bored with that too. You would have read all the classics until there were no more to read. Despite all those warnings, Aubrey de Gray says he would never get bored with life.

One thing I wonder about: The author devoted a whole chapter to how life on earth would get boring but never mentioned any such thing about eternal life in heaven. There's no such thing as immortality because one would eventually die in an accident or die from salmonella poisoning, or some such thing. But eternity in heaven is,.... well, ....eternity, and that's a heck of a long time. What will we do when we get there? How will we keep things interesting for a never ending period of time?

[rubicon]

Men have dreamed of a Utopia since the beginning of time. To wit the Garden of Eden. This story first, repeated orally from one generation to the next until it could be recorded for posterity. Did it rationalize, for early man, why he died? and where he went?

In modern times Shang ri la. To me this is a good thing because it lay the foundation for hope and it carried with it a vision, a goal, a mission for mankind. and despite all the craziness that continues in this world of ours we always come back to this hope this vision this promise to ourselves of a long lasting, happier and better life for our children and our children's children

[KeepingItReal]

Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyway..

As with all living things man also has a lifespan, some longer than others but there has not been nor will there ever be even one that will escape the death of the carnal body. The eternal hope for mankind is that the spirit of every man will live on in a new body whether it be in heaven or hell.

JOB 14:
1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.

[kittygilchrist]

It's one thing to ask why we get old and die, which, given the inevitability of death poses a philosophical question, and it's another to ask how does getting old and dying look under a microscope, and hurray for science and medical advances.

I am eternal. My body is mortal. It's not always preferable to extend breathing in a body. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Death where is thy sting? Grave, where is thy victory?

[2BNTV]

"Can't take life seriously as you won't get out of it alive". Red Skelton

We will all die a physical death, but the soul will remain immortal, for those that believe.

[Villages PL]

When we die our soul goes to heaven to live for an eternity.

Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end. - Woody Allen

[Villages PL]

Genesis Chapter 3

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

THAT'S why we die. No amount of science is going to change that.


.

In number 6 above you used the word "husband". Were Adam and Eve married at the time or just living together?

Also, notice that God put them in a garden. There were no fast foods or processed junk foods. Manufactured foods came about much later when man thought he knew better.

[coolkayaker1]

As we get older, our cells become less and less able to clean and rebuild themselves. Garbage builds up and doesn't get cleaned out. Dead cells sit there and don't get replaced. Our arteries and brains get clogged with gunk.



Hey, that sounds like what happened to my Windows computer!

[coolkayaker1]

I, for one, wish I would never die.

I want to live to help my great grandchildren scavenge for food, water, warmth, and a safe place to sleep, all because me and my generational peers screwed up the earth for them; the least I can do is live to lend a hand.

[Villages PL]

My doctor says 88 for women and 83 for men. That doesn't make me very happy. I surely do not want to outlive my very best friend on this earth.

That's the sad reality of married life: Usually, one will die and leave the other alone. More often than not the husband dies first but it does happen the other way around too. There have been men who outlived their wives by decades. One might consider taking up smoking. :-)

[coolkayaker1]

This is a great video (15 minutes long, so grab a sandwich): the Stanford graduation speech from the late Steve Jobs. He speaks of life--and of death. (IF you wish to hear only the death part, which is profound, it starts at 9:00 minutes in the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

"Believe that the dots will connect down the road"--Steve Jobs.

[Villages PL]

Mortality, morbidity, popularity, anti-aging formulas and every lasting peace all have two things in common they are huge money makers, until they are not then pulled off the market for a time to be recycled for the next generation. Barnum was right.

Sure, one never knows. In the book I mentioned in my opening post, most of the "cures" for aging will depend on genetic engineering being developed further. So perhaps part of the reason for writing the book, the way it was written, might have been to promote genetic research. If people think the big breakthroughs will come from genetic research, they might be encouraged to donate more money.

[coolkayaker1]

It has been said that, if there was a cure for no other disease than terminal cancer, the world would be overpopulated--mass starvation and dehydration--within one generation.

The same can be said for eternal life. As Steve Jobs said in his graduation speech, linked above: Death is the greatest invention for life.

It is the natural order of things that all things shall pass.
http://coolkayaker1.blogspot.com/2009/07/all-things-shall-pass.html

[Villages PL]

It has been said that, if there was a cure for no other disease than terminal cancer, the world would be overpopulated--mass starvation and dehydration--within one generation.

The same can be said for eternal life. As Steve Jobs said in his graduation speech, linked above: Death is the greatest invention for life.

It is the natural order of things that all things shall pass.
COOLKAYAKER1: All Things Shall Pass (http://coolkayaker1.blogspot.com/2009/07/all-things-shall-pass.html)

There's no such thing as eternal life. The title of the book I mentioned, in my opening post, only suggests it: "The Strange Science of Immortality". When you think about it, it wouldn't be easy to come up with a better title than that. What else could the title have been? "The Strange Science of Trying to Live a Lot Longer?" There is another book titled, "Live Long Enough To Live Forever". It speculates that if you could live another 10 or 15 years, by that time the technology would exist to help you live forever. But it's just speculation because the technology just isn't there yet.

Not only that but it's very likely that most people wouldn't be able to afford the genetic modification treatments it would require. And fresh stem cells would have to be engineered in a lab and periodically injected into your body. This alone might cost $15,000.00 or more every ten years.

A large number of people haven't even saved enough retirement money to last 15 or 20 years. And I doubt that any health care plan would pay for these treatments..

Also, if this thread is any indication, a lot of people wouldn't want it. So I doubt it would lead to over population. But if you really want to know what happens when people live longer and longer, just look at Japan. The birth rate has been gradually going down for a long time. I think it's the same in Europe too. Look at Italy and other such places. The birth rate keeps going down.

[KeepingItReal]

There's no such thing as eternal life.
.

Totally incorrect, there is no eternal life for this carnal body which is going back to the dust from whence it came, but there is eternal life after our death for the soul. Best to not worry so much about how long the body will live and instead focus on where the soul will live on since it will be a lot longer than the time here. Be ready!

[Villages PL]

Totally incorrect, there is no eternal life for this carnal body which is going back to the dust from whence it came, but there is eternal life after our death for the soul. Best to not worry so much about how long the body will live and instead focus on where the soul will live on since it will be a lot longer than the time here. Be ready!

If you go back a post or two you will notice we were talking about the physical body. Let's not confuse the issue.

As far as the soul is concerned, eternal life of the soul is based on one's personal faith and nothing more.

You might want to start a new thread with the following heading: Eternal life of the soul is a fact that I can prove beyond any doubt!

[Barefoot]

There's no such thing as eternal life.

Totally incorrect, there is no eternal life for this carnal body which is going back to the dust from whence it came, but there is eternal life after our death for the soul. Best to not worry so much about how long the body will live and instead focus on where the soul will live on since it will be a lot longer than the time her!
I agree with KIR that there a short lifespan for our human body, but eternal life for the soul.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

[kittygilchrist]

I finally got past the exaggerated use of the word immortality and looked up an explanation of telomeres. You'll find a link below. Very interesting...and tucked at the bottom of the article, encouragement to reduce oxidative stress, something we all can actually do for ourselves.

Thanks for the topic, VPL. I need to reduce oxidative stress.

Are Telomeres The Key To Aging And Cancer? (http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/telomeres/)

[Cantwaittoarrive]

If you go back a post or two you will notice we were talking about the physical body. Let's not confuse the issue.

As far as the soul is concerned, eternal life of the soul is based on one's personal faith and nothing more.

You might want to start a new thread with the following heading: Eternal life of the soul is a fact that I can prove beyond any doubt!

"As far as the soul is concerned, eternal life of the soul is based on one's personal faith and nothing more." Sorry you have it wrong! Where you spend your eternity is based on one's faith, not if eternal life of the soul is a reality. Eternal life of the soul is a fact!

[Villages PL]

I finally got past the exaggerated use of the word immortality and looked up an explanation of telomeres. You'll find a link below. Very interesting...and tucked at the bottom of the article, encouragement to reduce oxidative stress, something we all can actually do for ourselves.

Thanks for the topic, VPL. I need to reduce oxidative stress.

Are Telomeres The Key To Aging And Cancer? (http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/telomeres/)

You're welcome and thanks for the link. I read the whole thing; it was interesting. It said oxidative stress is caused by oxidants and not long ago I read that iron is a potent oxidant. Red meat is a source of iron so maybe that's one reason why vegans and vegetarians, like seventh day Adventists, live so much longer. Their average life expectancy is 88.

Glycation was mentioned too and the article seems to suggest that calorie restriction is something we can do about it. We can restrict calories by avoiding high-calorie processed foods.

Dr. Dean Ornish, along with Dr. Blackburn did a study that showed we can lengthen telomeres by eating a healthy vegan diet, moderate exercise and stress reduction. This lifestyle increases the enzyme telomerase and it's what allows telomeres to lengthen. It helps DNA to repair itself. So we can stay younger by living a healthy lifestyle.

[gamby]

The word “soul” in the Bible is a translation of the Hebrew word ne′phesh and the Greek word psy·khe′. The Hebrew word literally means “a creature that breathes,” and the Greek word means “a living being.” * The soul, then, is the entire creature, not something inside that survives the death of the body. Consider how the Bible shows that the human soul is the whole person:

Adam, a living soul, at the time of his creation

Adam was not given a soul—he “became a living soul”

When God created the first man, Adam, the Bible says that “man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7, King James Version) Adam was not given a soul—he became a living soul, or person.


The Bible says that the soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body. (Leviticus 5:2; 7:20; 23:30; Deuteronomy 12:20; Romans 13:1) Those activities involve the entire person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is the soul immortal?

No, the soul can die. Dozens of Bible verses refer to the soul as being mortal. Here are some examples:

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, 20, King James Version.


In ancient Israel, the punishment for the most serious offenses was that the “soul shall be cut off.” (Exodus 12:15, 19; Leviticus 7:20, 21, 27; 19:8, King James Version) The person would “be put to death.”—Exodus 31:14, King James Version.


After a person dies, the literal term “dead soul” is used for the corpse in some Bible verses. (Leviticus 21:11, footnote; Numbers 6:6, footnote) Although many Bible translations use the terms “dead body” or “dead person” in those verses, the original Hebrew uses the word ne′phesh, or “soul.”


“Soul” can mean “life”

The Bible also uses “soul” as a synonym for “life.” For example, Job 33:22 uses the Hebrew word for “soul” (ne′phesh) as a parallel for “life.” Similarly, the Bible shows that a person’s soul, or life, can be risked or lost.
This use of the word for “soul” helps us to understand verses in which the soul is said to be “going out” or “departing.” (Genesis 35:18; King James Version) This figure of speech indicates that the person’s life is ending. Some translations render this expression at Genesis 35:18 as “she breathed her last.”—Good News Translation; New Jerusalem Bible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where belief in an immortal soul comes from

Christian denominations that believe in an immortal soul get this teaching, not from the Bible, but from ancient Greek philosophy. The Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks.”

God does not condone merging his teachings with human philosophies, such as belief in an immortal soul. Instead, the Bible warns: “Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition.”—Colossians 2:8.

[KeepingItReal]

The soul of man will never die. Just as the body is carnal so is the carnal mind that cannot interpret or understand the scriptures. So many error from trying to take the scriptures literally and not being able to understand their spiritual meanings.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Matthew 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.



Clearly the body is made from the dust to which it will return but the spirit or soul of mankind will return unto God who gave it. When a person is saved it is the soul or spirit that is saved from an eternity in hell and not the carnal body. Even in hell the soul will burn and burn but will never burn up as most would think. Some say well if I go to hell it will only last a few minutes at the most and then it will be over but this is not the case. There are numerous places to confirm this if interpreted correctly.

Luke 16:28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

2 Peter Chapter 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

[gamby]

This is my last word on this topic,


Death, and What Happens When We Die,

The Bible makes it clear that God did not originally intend for humans to die. He created the first human pair Adam and Eve, placed them in an earthly paradise called Eden, and instructed them to have children and extend their Paradise home earth wide. They would die only if they disobeyed his instructions.—Genesis 1:28; 2:15-17.
Lacking appreciation for God’s kindness, Adam and Eve did disobey and were made to pay the prescribed penalty. “You [will] return to the ground,” God told Adam, “for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Before his creation Adam did not exist; he was dust. And for his disobedience, or sin, Adam was sentenced to return to dust, to a state of nonexistence.
Death is thus an absence of life. The Bible draws the contrast: “The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life.” (Romans 6:23) Showing that death is a state of total unconsciousness, the Bible says: “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) When a person dies, the Bible explains: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:3,*4.



2 Peter 3:13

But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.


Revelation 21:4

And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

[kittygilchrist]

Gamby, what about "this day you shall be with me in paradise?" Jesus
"I am persuaded that neither life nor death nor principalities nor powers etc. can separate us from the love of Christ?" Paul
"I will never leave you nor forsake you" jesus.

Ecclesiastes is about questionings of what life means and considerations and meditations about the meaning of life.
Framing one's beliefs by pointing to one verse ignores that the book is chock-full of the author discovering the errors of his thinking and the author tracks the progression of his beliefs from the beginning to the end of Ecclesiastes.

For example, contrast the verse you quoted with Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto to God who gave it"

[Villages PL]

It seems that the Bible is open to interpretation. One sees things one way and another sees the opposite. If everyone saw everything in the same way, wouldn't there be just one religion for the whole world?

Where did the Quran come from? Is that not the word of God?

What about the Jewish faith and their belief that Christ was just a philosopher and not the son of God? Is that incorrect?

Could it be that the Bible was simply great fiction written by man and not at all inspired by God? Although, perhaps it was inspired by the thought that there might be a God.

[KeepingItReal]

1 Corinthians Chapter 15


13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[KeepingItReal]

Where did the Quran come from? Is that not the word of God?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtrtxW_64PU

[nitakk]

If the original question was why do we get old and die- because that's the way it is! Keep it simple, people. It has nothing to do with religion, it's just that things come into being, age and die. Happens to everybody and every thing. Time to enjoy what life you have left!

[rubicon]

You're welcome and thanks for the link. I read the whole thing; it was interesting. It said oxidative stress is caused by oxidants and not long ago I read that iron is a potent oxidant. Red meat is a source of iron so maybe that's one reason why vegans and vegetarians, like seventh day Adventists, live so much longer. Their average life expectancy is 88.

Glycation was mentioned too and the article seems to suggest that calorie restriction is something we can do about it. We can restrict calories by avoiding high-calorie processed foods.

Dr. Dean Ornish, along with Dr. Blackburn did a study that showed we can lengthen telomeres by eating a healthy vegan diet, moderate exercise and stress reduction. This lifestyle increases the enzyme telomerase and it's what allows telomeres to lengthen. It helps DNA to repair itself. So we can stay younger by living a healthy lifestyle.

Villages PL: I find the studies done by experts very confusing and contradicting. Iron creates an oxidative reaction but iron is essential to the blood. Many narratives are circulating that meat protein is essential especially for people over the age of 65. The bigger danger to the body is inflamation .

I don't believe a doctor would place every patient he/she had on a vegan diet because each person health age and needs vary. Such things as ability to absorb nutrients they need, the effect of fiber on their digestive system their need for iron because perhaps they are anemic, etc. The bigger concern is a person's ability to creating tasting and nutrient needed meals . I mean you just don't buy frozen vegetables and mix them around
i could be wrong about all this but based on the Restaurant Discussion thread it doesn't appear many villagers are intrigued by a vegan diet

As to eternal life far too complicated and taxing for me.

[Shimpy]

Could it be that the Bible was simply great fiction written by man and not at all inspired by God? Although, perhaps it was inspired by the thought that there might be a God.

"The bible is the word or God. How do we know this? Because the bible said so. " You got to remember the bible was written when science didn't exist and every unexplained thing was contributed to a God. Later they downsized to only one God. Have you ever seen the demonstration of a story told to a person at the head of the line then passed down the line to the 10th person? The last persons story didn't even closely resemble the original. Imagine now passing it on for 2000 years and through untold number of languages.
Even today with our high tech media they report a story that many times has so many mistakes to make the whole story inaccurate 30 minutes later.

[Villages PL]

Villages PL: I find the studies done by experts very confusing and contradicting. Iron creates an oxidative reaction but iron is essential to the blood. Many narratives are circulating that meat protein is essential especially for people over the age of 65. The bigger danger to the body is inflamation .

I don't believe a doctor would place every patient he/she had on a vegan diet because each person health age and needs vary. Such things as ability to absorb nutrients they need, the effect of fiber on their digestive system their need for iron because perhaps they are anemic, etc. The bigger concern is a person's ability to creating tasting and nutrient needed meals . I mean you just don't buy frozen vegetables and mix them around
i could be wrong about all this but based on the Restaurant Discussion thread it doesn't appear many villagers are intrigued by a vegan diet

As to eternal life far too complicated and taxing for me.

rubicon, yes, iron is essential but can be obtained from vegetables and one thing about iron is that some of it gets recycled in the body. So, most of us don't need a big new supply every day. Of course there may always be exceptions. I never rule out exceptions although I have been accused of it many times. I never say everyone must do this or that.

To restate it another way: Iron is essential but excess iron may be harmful. If a doctor says someone needs more iron based on a blood test, then they probably do and should follow the doctors advice.

People over 65 need more meat protein? Let me give that some thought; perhaps some people do need it. It might be a good subject for a new thread. I need some time on that one.

[kittygilchrist]

.... Eternal life is free. You can't get from vegetables.
I am sad for those who have no faith... And very very grateful for the most precious gift I have ever received.

[kittygilchrist]

rubicon, yes, iron is essential but can be obtained from vegetables and one thing about iron is that some of it gets recycled in the body. So, most of us don't need a big new supply every day. Of course there may always be exceptions. I never rule out exceptions although I have been accused of it many times. I never say everyone must do this or that.

To restate it another way: Iron is essential but excess iron may be harmful. If a doctor says someone needs more iron based on a blood test, then they probably do and should follow the doctors advice.

People over 65 need more meat protein? Let me give that some thought; perhaps some people do need it. It might be a good subject for a new thread. I need some time on that one.

Research...yum, good stuff
Nutrition Journal | Full text | Diet, iron biomarkers and oxidative stress in a representative sample of Mediterranean population (http://www.nutritionj.com/content/12/1/102)

[KeepingItReal]

.... Eternal life is free. You can't get from vegetables.
I am sad for those who have no faith... And very very grateful for the most precious gift I have ever received.

:BigApplause:

Could not agree with you more....... I cannot not imagine being without the personal knowledge of having a better long home waiting.

[tippyclubb]

If the original question was why do we get old and die- because that's the way it is! Keep it simple, people. It has nothing to do with religion, it's just that things come into being, age and die. Happens to everybody and every thing. Time to enjoy what life you have left!

Now this makes sense and I will not spend any of my precious time trying to figure out why we die. Instead, I'll spend the rest of my days having fun spending time with family and friends laughing and having a ball.

[2BNTV]

I love that VPL starts threads that have no concrete answers to. Like asking, "how many angels dance on the head of a pin".

Just remember. "Man Plans, GOD Laughs".

[Villages PL]

Research...yum, good stuff
Nutrition Journal | Full text | Diet, iron biomarkers and oxidative stress in a representative sample of Mediterranean population (http://www.nutritionj.com/content/12/1/102)

After I posted to rubicon I realized I forgot to point out the difference between non-heme iron from plants and heme iron from animal protein but your link has it covered. I would just add this: The reason heme iron is so bad is that it accumulates and builds up in the body and can therefore reach toxic levels. On the other hand, you can never get too much non-heme iron from plant based foods. Your body will only keep what it needs for normal body functions.

[Villages PL]

As far as the "gunk theory", I think finding ways to make the cells live longer and function more efficiently should be the goal. Prevent the gunk rather than try to deal with it after it happens.

Thanks for your input, I totally agree. Let's not wait around for research that may never materialize, lets do everything that we already know how to do, like eat a healthy-whole-foods plant-based diet. :mmmm:

[rubicon]

rubicon, yes, iron is essential but can be obtained from vegetables and one thing about iron is that some of it gets recycled in the body. So, most of us don't need a big new supply every day. Of course there may always be exceptions. I never rule out exceptions although I have been accused of it many times. I never say everyone must do this or that.

To restate it another way: Iron is essential but excess iron may be harmful. If a doctor says someone needs more iron based on a blood test, then they probably do and should follow the doctors advice.

People over 65 need more meat protein? Let me give that some thought; perhaps some people do need it. It might be a good subject for a new thread. I need some time on that one.

Hi villages PL: Appreciate the reply. As to 65+ eating more meat the study explained it had to do with the reduction in absorption rate of nutrients by seniors. Makes sense to me.

Again we find the experts reverse themselves. Reported in the New England Journal of Medicine is the following findings.

Current guidelines by WHO, American Heart Association and other groups set daily sodium targets between 1,500 and 2,300 milligrams. The average US daily consumption is about 3,400 milligrams. The new study tracked 100,000 people in 17 countries for more than 3 years. Those who consumed less than 3,000 milligrams daily had a 27% higher risk of heart attack or stroke than those consuming 3,000 to 6,000 Risk of death or major events increased with intake above 6,000.

At the risk of being accused of confirmation bias it seems the Greeks common sense approach of "Moderation in all things" once again is validated

[rubicon]

This thread as been split between discussion of mortal life and eternal life.

I read two accounts this morning of what faith can achieve, both concerning Eastern Europeans under the yoke of communism. The Poles had credited Pope John Paul with giving them the strength and determination to succeed in their fight for democracy. another part of the article pointed to an observation of a US government official who was taken to a Russia church where he found the exterior badly deteriorated and in need of repair. However when he entered the church he found the interior to be extremely beautiful and in a pristine state. The obvious reason was to escape detection from the communist so these parishioners could practice their faith

Perhaps a strong faith and the promise of eternal life has a positive affect on our longevity? One thing for sure you have to admire people such as those above who demonstrate such tenacity in the face of such dangerous and life threatening adversity

[Villages PL]

Villages PL: Many narratives are circulating that meat protein is essential especially for people over the age of 65.

rubicon, I found the Daily Sun article about high-protein diets for the elderly. It was published on March 9, 2014. The heading was: "High-protein diets: Bad for the middle-aged, good for the elderly" The sub-heading was "Study: High protein diet in those 66 and older likely to live longer". But the article never said how much longer they would live, on average, and it never quantified the amount of protein. In that regard the heading conflicted with the actual information in the body of the article.

The lead author of the study, Valter Longo, said the following: Among the older subjects, the source of proteins was less important. The important thing is that "those entering a period of frailty" take in more protein to reduce "their loss of weight and muscle mass."

My problem is with a lack of specifics in the article. The information seems to suggest that the subjects were suffering from protein deficiency, but the amount of protein was not quantified.

When I did an on-line search on how to calculate one's protein requirement, I found the following formula: Body weight in lbs. X 0.4 = number of protein grams per day. And about 1/3 more protein is needed when the source is plant-based.

The study was about "those entering a period of frailty." So you have to imaging that they are not getting much exercise, if any. Under those conditions the most that one can hope for is to "reduce [the] loss of weight and muscle mass." Protein by itself is not going to build lean muscle.

The article mentioned that plant-based nutrients have important protective effects. So, to the extent that someone over consumes animal protein, they will be displacing the all important plant-based nutrients.

It seems that at some point nature may box a person in. If the person is frail and doesn't get much exercise, they're unlikely to have a good appetite. So if they're only eating a very small volume of food, they will likely do better with a more concentrated source of protein, like eggs, chicken or fish. (The calculation method I provided above should do it.)

All of this assumes that the frail elderly don't like beans etc. and won't eat them in any significant quantities. So one would just do the next best thing under the circumstances.

[Villages PL]

Hi villages PL: Appreciate the reply. As to 65+ eating more meat the study explained it had to do with the reduction in absorption rate of nutrients by seniors. Makes sense to me.

Again we find the experts reverse themselves. Reported in the New England Journal of Medicine is the following findings.

Current guidelines by WHO, American Heart Association and other groups set daily sodium targets between 1,500 and 2,300 milligrams. The average US daily consumption is about 3,400 milligrams. The new study tracked 100,000 people in 17 countries for more than 3 years. Those who consumed less than 3,000 milligrams daily had a 27% higher risk of heart attack or stroke than those consuming 3,000 to 6,000 Risk of death or major events increased with intake above 6,000.

At the risk of being accused of confirmation bias it seems the Greeks common sense approach of "Moderation in all things" once again is validated

About the sodium: Reductionist thinking strikes again! I'll explain more about this at some later time.

About the Greeks: I will repeat what I've said before: In what year did they say "Moderation in all things"? Back then their access to highly processed junk foods (manufactured foods) were essentially non-existent.
So their saying "Moderation in all things" cannot be applied today. It simply wouldn't work.

[Villages PL]

This thread as been split between discussion of mortal life and eternal life.

I read two accounts this morning of what faith can achieve, both concerning Eastern Europeans under the yoke of communism. The Poles had credited Pope John Paul with giving them the strength and determination to succeed in their fight for democracy. another part of the article pointed to an observation of a US government official who was taken to a Russia church where he found the exterior badly deteriorated and in need of repair. However when he entered the church he found the interior to be extremely beautiful and in a pristine state. The obvious reason was to escape detection from the communist so these parishioners could practice their faith

Perhaps a strong faith and the promise of eternal life has a positive affect on our longevity? One thing for sure you have to admire people such as those above who demonstrate such tenacity in the face of such dangerous and life threatening adversity

Well, if faith helps that's good. My best friend is highly religious and it seems to help her a lot. But one never knows for sure what's going to help, as far as longevity. Take my grandmother and grandfather: My grandmother was a Pentecostal and religion was probably the most important thing in her life. My grandfather was a non-believer. She developed dementia and had to be institutionalized while he stayed mentally sharp and lived to the age of 97. Off hand I'd say he lived at least 15 years longer.

[kittygilchrist]

A grandmother's prayers...i had a heritage like that.
I think they're very effective.

[Villages PL]

A grandmother's prayers...i had a heritage like that.
I think they're very effective.

My grandmother was a good singer and liked to sing religious songs in Italian while doing housework. I think my grandfather liked it because it made him smile whenever she would start singing....:)

[Villages PL]

I love that VPL starts threads that have no concrete answers to. Like asking, "how many angels dance on the head of a pin".

Just remember. "Man Plans, GOD Laughs".

Gerontology, the study of aging, is a relatively new science so there might not be too much information to get excited about. Although, there have been some promising breakthroughs as I mentioned earlier. Let's give it more time; I think it's gaining momentum. ;)

[kittygilchrist]

My grandmother was a good singer and liked to sing religious songs in Italian while doing housework. I think my grandfather liked it because it made him smile whenever she would start singing....:)

That's a nice memory. It made him happy when she was happy.

[Villages PL]

In the book, "The Strange Science of Immortality" the author found some fault with Aubrey de Gray's plan to find a way to live for 1,000 years. He said a much longer life would just become incredibly boring.

If that's true, and I think it is, how does it compare with eternity? Can the human mind even comprehend what eternity must be like? Might it be too much of a good thing?

Here's something that might be of some help to grasp the concept of eternity:

If a little bird were to take a grain of sand in its
beak from the seashore and somehow manage to
fly it to the furthest quasar in the universe, and if it
returned and repeated the process until all the sand
of the oceans both from beaches and the bottoms
were gone, eternity would be just beginning.

-Anonymous, written on the wall of the
Mate' Factor Café, Ithaca Commons, NY

[elbear]

We are dying all the time, each moment, every night. We die to what we leave behind. Finally we die as the body gives out for one reason or another. We also live on in many ways.

I wrote this a long time ago:



Each and every moment, I die
In the twinkling of an eye
Then awakening, here and now
Never knowing, never questioning how
Eternity lives in me

[Villages PL]

We are dying all the time, each moment, every night. We die to what we leave behind. Finally we die as the body gives out for one reason or another. We also live on in many ways.

I wrote this a long time ago:



Each and every moment, I die
In the twinkling of an eye
Then awakening, here and now
Never knowing, never questioning how
Eternity lives in me

Nice poem. Cells in our body are constantly dying and being born. New cells replace old cells. Every so many years we are not the same person.

[graciegirl]

When the question of why do we get old and die is on my mind, I have a couple of cookies and a cold glass of milk and take a nap.

[Villages PL]

Imagine the marketing problems a drug company might have in the future if they came out with an immortality pill. How would they go about getting it approved for the stated purpose? The FDA would require a never ending long term study to prove the pill effective for the stated purpose.

Would a thousand years of testing be enough? Nope! Would ten thousand years be enough? Nope! A million years? Nope!


"Immortality is a long shot, I admit; but somebody has to be first." -Bill Cosby

[kittygilchrist]

Why did Abel "keep the flock" when the family was vegetarian? | Creation Moments (http://www.creationmoments.com/content/why-did-abel-keep-flock-when-family-was-vegetarian)
I thought this article might be of interest to those concerned with nutrition.

[Villages PL]

Why did Abel "keep the flock" when the family was vegetarian? | Creation Moments (http://www.creationmoments.com/content/why-did-abel-keep-flock-when-family-was-vegetarian)
I thought this article might be of interest to those concerned with nutrition.

Possible reasons:

1) They only used them to make clothing

2) They were cheating on their diet

3) They didn't have a nutrition textbook to guide them and they mistakenly thought that sheep and goats were vegetables. They didn't have Wikipedia.

[Villages PL]

"The bible is the word or God. How do we know this? Because the bible said so. " You got to remember the bible was written when science didn't exist and every unexplained thing was contributed to a God. Later they downsized to only one God. Have you ever seen the demonstration of a story told to a person at the head of the line then passed down the line to the 10th person? The last persons story didn't even closely resemble the original. Imagine now passing it on for 2000 years and through untold number of languages.
Even today with our high tech media they report a story that many times has so many mistakes to make the whole story inaccurate 30 minutes later.

I think I see your point but I would add something a little different. In addition to the last 2000 years, I wonder about the long period of time before the bible was written. Or maybe that was part of the point you were making.

During the many years before the bible was written, people told stories just like my grandfather did. He was a great story teller because he was born and raised in a small town in Sicily. In the late 1800s and early 1900s there was no radio, TV or newspapers in the small towns were my grandparents came from. So, for entertainment, they became great story tellers.

That's what I imagine happened long before the bible was written, although I am certainly no expert on religion. But from what little I know, I think people told stories that were passed down from generation to generation. And in most cases the stories got perfected and improved along the way. The stories were about how God created the universe, including our world. Then Adam and Eve and their children. Then the story about Noah etc.. I'm sure I left out a lot but you get my point.

Eventually, someone realized the value of all of those stories and decided to collect and document them. So now we have the bible.

[KeepingItReal]

I think I see your point but I would add something a little different. In addition to the last 2000 years, I wonder about the long period of time before the bible was written. Or maybe that was part of the point you were making.

During the many years before the bible was written, people told stories just like my grandfather did. He was a great story teller because he was born and raised in a small town in Sicily. In the late 1800s and early 1900s there was no radio, TV or newspapers in the small towns were my grandparents came from. So, for entertainment, they became great story tellers.

That's what I imagine happened long before the bible was written, although I am certainly no expert on religion. But from what little I know, I think people told stories that were passed down from generation to generation. And in most cases the stories got perfected and improved along the way. The stories were about how God created the universe, including our world. Then Adam and Eve and their children. Then the story about Noah etc.. I'm sure I left out a lot but you get my point.

Eventually, someone realized the value of all of these stories and decided to collect and document them. So now we have the bible.

The wisdom of man is foolishness to God.. Without faith there is nothing that can be understood.

[kittygilchrist]

Possible reasons:

1) They only used them to make clothing

2) They were cheating on their diet

3) They didn't have a nutrition textbook to guide them and they mistakenly thought that sheep and goats were vegetables. They didn't have Wikipedia.

LOL! Well done, and for you that is not rare.

[perrjojo]

Why do we get old and die? How long would you want to live?

[helen lovely]

I believe it has to do with a time of reckoning for our life on earth. We must account to THE ALMIGHTY for our deeds at some point or another. NOTHING-money, power, or status can change that fact. Don't worry about the cells, etc. Face REALITY & PREPARE yourself spiritually.

[Uptown Girl]

"Every religion on the planet, and there are so many more than you are even aware of, has the potential of absolute thriving. But when you think that you must prove that you have the only one that is right—and you use your condemnation to push against the others—your condemnation separates you from your own Connection that, before your condemnation, you were finding in your own religion."

The original question was: Why do we get old and die?

I would submit it is because we believe that is the natural progression of life on Earth. It is a group thought form held and fed by most of us on this planet, therefore, at present, it becomes our 'truth'- our reality. I would add: In our infinite diversity, we often find very creative ways to age and suffer and expire.

[redwitch]

When the question of why do we get old and die is on my mind, I have a couple of cookies and a cold glass of milk and take a nap.

Hand's down, the best post you've ever written!

[B767drvr]

When the question of why do we get old and die is on my mind, I have a couple of cookies and a cold glass of milk and take a nap.

Those better be butter-free cookies and a cold glass of almond milk (IF you know what's good for you!) :laugh:

Just teasing you Gracie! :D

[Villages PL]

LOL! Well done, and for you that is not rare.

Thanks! I appreciate that. Just for being so nice I have a couple of celebrity jokes you might like.

"You know you're getting old when all the names in your black book have 'M.D.' after them." - Harrison Ford

"My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was 60. She's 97 now, and we don't know where the heck she is." -Ellen DeGeneres

"According to most studies, people's number one fear is public speaking. Number two is death. This means to the average person, if you go to a funeral you're better off in the casket than doing the eulogy." -Jerry Seinfeld

[kittygilchrist]

Smiling... Ok ok, yes i laughed.

[graciegirl]

Research done on people in California who are 90plus.

Here is the link,Living to 90 and beyond - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/living-to-90-and-beyond/)

In summary, diet and vitamins didn't help people live longer, exercise, good genes and MODERATE use of alcohol did seem to be common among long livers. AND being very thin was not good,nor was being obese, but having some extra weight was BETTER than being thin as we age. WHO KNEW?

[lightworker888]

I love your response. I am just rereading The physics of Miracles by Dr. Richard Bartlett wwho developed Matrix Energetics. His ideas are grounded in quantum physics and scalar understanding and he talks about The morphic fields that surround every aspect of life. You are talking about the morphic field that surrounds our perception/belief about life and death and I had never thought of it that way. Thanks for putting that idea into different perspective. Now the goal could be to stay open to all possibilities for healthy longevity and easy living! I think I could buy into that! Bon Appetit to all.

LW888

[Villages PL]

Research done on people in California who are 90plus.

Here is the link,Living to 90 and beyond - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/living-to-90-and-beyond/)

In summary, diet and vitamins didn't help people live longer, exercise, good genes and MODERATE use of alcohol did seem to be common among long livers. AND being very thin was not good,nor was being obese, but having some extra weight was BETTER than being thin as we age. WHO KNEW?

This was a study promoted by a commercial entity. TV can be considered an extension of the food industry. So of course it would likely be biased in favor of finding other reasons for longevity other than a healthy diet.

About being very thin: Being very thin in old age can be, and often is, a sign of some disease state. For example, people who are overweight are at higher risk for cancer. If they get cancer, guess what, they lose a lot of weight and die thin. The point is that thinness in and of itself is not necessarily the cause of death. You have to look at what caused the person to be thin.

Studies have shown that a BMI of about 18 is the most ideal for health and longevity. Under 17 can be a problem though. So, don't go too low!!!

[CFrance]

(snipped) This was a study promoted by a commercial entity. TV can be considered an extension of the food industry. So of course it would likely be biased in favor of finding other reasons for longevity other than a healthy diet.


Okay, I'll bite. The current study (called 90+) is continuing, funded by grants from NIA and is being conducted by UC Irvine. The initial study back in the '80s was also funded by NIH, the Errol Carrol Trust Fund and Wyeth, but Wyeth was trying to find out about strokes.

Will you please cite your reference to the commercial entity that's promoting it, and exactly how they are promoting it--$? (I don't consider NIH/NIA or UCI commercial entities).

And please explain what you mean by TV being an extension of the food industry.

[Villages PL]

(snipped)
Okay, I'll bite. The current study (called 90+) is continuing, funded by grants from NIA and is being conducted by UC Irvine. The initial study back in the '80s was also funded by NIH, the Errol Carrol Trust Fund and Wyeth, but Wyeth was trying to find out about strokes.

Will you please cite your reference to the commercial entity that's promoting it, and exactly how they are promoting it--$? (I don't consider NIH/NIA or UCI commercial entities).

And please explain what you mean by TV being an extension of the food industry.

The commercial entity I was referring to is the television station itself because they are in the advertising business. I haven't watched TV for a long time but I seem to remember that they advertise food. And it's usually not fresh fruit and vegetables.

If it wasn't for the 60 minutes TV presentation that played up the aspect of diet not being important, I don't think that study would be memorable in the science of nutrition. Although, it may be memorable to the average TV watching person who is overweight and eats a poor diet. It lets those people off the hook so they no longer have to worry about improving their diet or losing weight. I think the study therefore does a disservice to public health.

[CFrance]

The commercial entity I was referring to is the television station itself because they are in the advertising business. I haven't watched TV for a long time but I seem to remember that they advertise food. And it's usually not fresh fruit and vegetables.

If it wasn't for the 60 minutes TV presentation that played up the aspect of diet not being important, I don't think that study would be memorable in the science of nutrition. Although, it may be memorable to the average TV watching person who is overweight and eats a poor diet. It lets those people off the hook so they no longer have to worry about improving their diet or losing weight. I think the study therefore does a disservice to public health.
Okay. I thought by TV you meant The Villages!

The two studies--Leisure World and the follow-up 90+ were not trying to emphasize or de-emphasize healthy diet, so the science of nutrition was not really involved. They were looking for any reasons that people lived past 90, and not necessarily diet or no diet. The studies were going on before 60 Minutes did the story.

For that matter, most studies wouldn't be memorable to the public unless they were reported on via TV or internet, or talked about in a book. Most lay people don't subscribe to medical journals and might not otherwise hear about the studies.

[Villages PL]

Okay. I thought by TV you meant The Villages!

The two studies--Leisure World and the follow-up 90+ were not trying to emphasize or de-emphasize healthy diet, so the science of nutrition was not really involved. They were looking for any reasons that people lived past 90, and not necessarily diet or no diet. The studies were going on before 60 Minutes did the story.

For that matter, most studies wouldn't be memorable to the public unless they were reported on via TV or internet, or talked about in a book. Most lay people don't subscribe to medical journals and might not otherwise hear about the studies.

I often edit my posts after I post them. In this case I realized that I hadn't made a clear statement as far as being memorable. So the statement now reads: "I don't think that study would be memorable to the science of nutrition."

If the science of nutrition wasn't involved then it was de-emphasized, in my opinion.

I like the Seventh Day Adventist study better because it was less ambiguous. The people are vegetarians or vegans (so most likely they are health minded) and they have an average life expectancy of 88. That's 10 years longer than the average for other Americans.

If the people in the "90 plus" study are eating the standard American diet then they must be included in those who live 10 years less on average. So why are people getting excited about the "90 plus" diet? Is it because they see it as giving permission to eat lots of animal protein and all kinds of processed junk foods?

[CFrance]

(snipped) So why are people getting excited about the "90 plus" diet? Is it because they see it as giving permission to eat lots of animal protein and all kinds of processed junk foods?
I saw it more as encouragement to exercise every day and try to lead a active social life more than giving permission to eat and drink what you want. I get from this that there seems to be more than one way to live longer.

[Whalen]

soylent green

[Villages PL]

soylent green

We need to die to provide food for the young? LOL

In that case, I don't mind dying as long as it's for a good cause. :thumbup:

[Barefoot]

If the people in the "90 plus" study are eating the standard American diet then they must be included in those who live 10 years less on average. So why are people getting excited about the "90 plus" diet? Is it because they see it as giving permission to eat lots of animal protein and all kinds of processed junk foods?

I don't think there are a lot of people getting excited about the "90 plus" diet or rushing to change their eating habits!
The 60 Minutes Segment was merely an interesting look at the lifestyles of a group of people over the age of 90.

[KeepingItReal]

An 80 year old man went to the doctor for a check-up and the doctor was amazed at what good shape the guy was in. The doctor asked, "To what do you attribute your good health?" The old timer said, "I'm a turkey hunter and that's why I'm in such good shape. I'm up well before daylight and out chasing turkeys up and down the mountains."

The doctor said, "Well, I'm sure that helps, but there's got to be more to it. How old was your dad when he died?"

The old timer said, "Who said my dad's dead?"

The doctor said, "You mean you're 80 years old and your dad's still alive? How old is he?"

The old timer said, "He's 100 yrs old and, in fact, he hunted turkey with me this morning, and that's why he's still alive... he's a turkey hunter."

The doctor said, "Well, that's great, but I'm sure there's more to it. How about your dad's dad? How old was he when he died?"

The old timer said, "Who said my grandpa's dead?"

The doctor said, "You mean you're 80 years old and your grandfather's still living! How old is he?"

The old timer said, "He's 118 yrs old." The doctor was getting frustrated at this point and said, "I guess he went turkey hunting with you this morning too?"

The old timer said, "No... Grandpa couldn't go this morning because he got married."

The Doctor said in amazement, "Got married!! Why would a 118-year-old guy want to get married?" The old timer said, "Who said he wanted to?"

[graciegirl]

I often edit my posts after I post them. In this case I realized that I hadn't made a clear statement as far as being memorable. So the statement now reads: "I don't think that study would be memorable to the science of nutrition."

If the science of nutrition wasn't involved then it was de-emphasized, in my opinion.

I like the Seventh Day Adventist study better because it was less ambiguous. The people are vegetarians or vegans (so most likely they are health minded) and they have an average life expectancy of 88. That's 10 years longer than the average for other Americans.

If the people in the "90 plus" study are eating the standard American diet then they must be included in those who live 10 years less on average. So why are people getting excited about the "90 plus" diet? Is it because they see it as giving permission to eat lots of animal protein and all kinds of processed junk foods?

First, THERE IS NO 90+ diet. None. It was mentioned they don't do anything out of the ordinary. They eat what most people eat.

I don't think anyone is getting excited about this segment either. I thought it was an interesting segment, showing some very alive and charming people who are over 90, in good health and very "with it". I didn't see that anyone was trying to get anyone to change, or was promoting anything. These people who are in pretty good shape were being studied, and after they die their brains will be analyzed.

We have dozens of 90 plus folks who live right here in TV and I am so grateful to know three of them personally. May they and us live long-er and prosper.

[Villages PL]

An 80 year old man went to the doctor for a check-up and the doctor was amazed at what good shape the guy was in. The doctor asked, "To what do you attribute your good health?" The old timer said, "I'm a turkey hunter and that's why I'm in such good shape. I'm up well before daylight and out chasing turkeys up and down the mountains."

The doctor said, "Well, I'm sure that helps, but there's got to be more to it. How old was your dad when he died?"

The old timer said, "Who said my dad's dead?"

The doctor said, "You mean you're 80 years old and your dad's still alive? How old is he?"

The old timer said, "He's 100 yrs old and, in fact, he hunted turkey with me this morning, and that's why he's still alive... he's a turkey hunter."

The doctor said, "Well, that's great, but I'm sure there's more to it. How about your dad's dad? How old was he when he died?"

The old timer said, "Who said my grandpa's dead?"

The doctor said, "You mean you're 80 years old and your grandfather's still living! How old is he?"

The old timer said, "He's 118 yrs old." The doctor was getting frustrated at this point and said, "I guess he went turkey hunting with you this morning too?"

The old timer said, "No... Grandpa couldn't go this morning because he got married."

The Doctor said in amazement, "Got married!! Why would a 118-year-old guy want to get married?" The old timer said, "Who said he wanted to?"

:clap2::thumbup: