Corrugated Stainless Steel tubing in Attics and fire safety

[anne321]

Sumter county Building Official and Villages Fire Marshall have been asked to inspect and certify in writing safety of homes in Villages with Natural Gas. I was concerned about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing which is used for Gas lines in the attics of all Village homes. I called Chuck Humphry Safety person for TECO Gas his number is 352-427-0743. I asked him about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in attics. He immediately referred me to a 16 page booklet called [ At your Service Handbook] that TECO GAS sends out to people with TECO GAS service which explains in particular gas safety issues. He referred me to page 8 of this hand book which states ( If you find Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in your home or business, customers should have a licensed electrician install a bonding device to reduce the chance of natural gas leak or FIRE.) He was also quite clear that the routing of Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in CLOSE PROXMITY to the Metal Gas Furnace Exhaust pipe which generally sticks between 5 or 6 ft above the roof and act as a natural lighting rod is very dangerous. Or for that mater near to any Metallic pipe or wire is also a very dangerous practice and could cause fire and explosion. The combination of not bonding and grounding the gas supply on the house side of the meter as close as possible to the gas meter with a number 6 copper wire which is grounded to the electrical panel ground and the main house ground in conjunction with routing the Corrugated Stainless Steel tubing to close to the Gas Furnace Exhaust pipe can cause arcing from the electrical system to the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. In the case of lighting strikes if these 2 things which are required by law according to Chuck Humphrey there is extreme danger of fire and explosion. I would like to know what other people in the Villages experience has been with this problem I have talked to people in the Villages and looked at many many homes in the Villages and have not seen one home that has the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing safely installed. I would like to hear from people if they have seen a safe installation anywhere in the Villages. I was told by someone to Google Stainless Steel Tubing and I was shocked what was said about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. Do not take my word about this Contact TECO GAS the will tell you if the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing is not bonded and grounded according to law that is a extreme fire and explosion Hazard. Any home that does not have this installed properly should immediately have it done. Chuck Humphery from TECO GAS said it should have been done by law in the when the home was built and is very dangerous.

[graciegirl]

I was concerned about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing which is used for Gas lines in the attics of all Village homes. I called Chuck Humphry Safety person for TECO Gas his number is 352-427-0743. I asked him about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in attics. He immediately referred me to a 16 page booklet called [ At your Service Handbook] that TECO GAS sends out to people with TECO GAS service which explains in particular gas safety issues. He referred me to page 8 of this hand book which states ( If you find Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in your home or business, customers should have a licensed electrician install a bonding device to reduce the chance of natural gas leak or FIRE.) He was also quite clear that the routing of Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in CLOSE PROXMITY to the Metal Gas Furnace Exhaust pipe which generally sticks between 5 or 6 ft above the roof and act as a natural lighting rod is very dangerous. Or for that mater near to any Metallic pipe or wire is also a very dangerous practice and could cause fire and explosion. The combination of not bonding and grounding the gas supply on the house side of the meter as close as possible to the gas meter with a number 6 copper wire which is grounded to the electrical panel ground and the main house ground in conjunction with routing the Corrugated Stainless Steel tubing to close to the Gas Furnace Exhaust pipe can cause arcing from the electrical system to the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. In the case of lighting strikes if these 2 things which are required by law according to Chuck Humphrey there is extreme danger of fire and explosion. I would like to know what other people in the Villages experience has been with this problem I have talked to people in the Villages and looked at many many homes in the Villages and have not seen one home that has the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing safely installed. I would like to hear from people if they have seen a safe installation anywhere in the Villages. I was told by someone to Google Stainless Steel Tubing and I was shocked what was said about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. Do not take my word about this Contact TECO GAS the will tell you if the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing is not bonded and grounded according to law that is a extreme fire and explosion Hazard. Any home that does not have this installed properly should immediately have it done. Chuck Humphery from TECO GAS said it should have been done by law in the when the home was built and is very dangerous.


Any number of home inspectors can tell you if your pipe is to code. Here is a copy of the code.

http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/free_resources/2010Florida/Residential/PDFs/Chapter%2022%20-%20Special%20Piping.pdf

And here is a link to the booklet that Teco told you about.
http://www.peoplesgas.com/files/content/aysbrochure_eng.pdf

[njbchbum]

Welcome to TOTV, anne321 - interesting first post. Just wondering why you are concerned about gas installations in attics...do you live here, are you looking to buy or move to a house here that has a gas utility, do you know someone who installs the protective bonding device, or do you need a referaal to someone who does the bonding protection. TOTVers ave lots of experience at lots of things - if there is an answer to you inquiry, someone will offer it here.

[zcaveman]

Any number of home inspectors can tell you if your pipe is to code. Here is a copy of the code.

http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/free_resources/2010Florida/Residential/PDFs/Chapter%2022%20-%20Special%20Piping.pdf

And here is a link to the booklet that Teco told you about.
http://www.peoplesgas.com/files/content/aysbrochure_eng.pdf

Thanks for the link to the handbook. I will read it sometime this week.

Z

[perrjojo]

All homes do not have gas. Many are all electric.

[Warren Kiefer]

Thanks for the link to the handbook. I will read it sometime this week.

Z

If iI were in a home with the attic gas lines there is no doubt what I would do. I would have the gas shut off at the meter and convert all my appliances to electric. If you wonder why I say this, you must have not read the news reports of these lines being hit by lighting and ruptering causing a unreal increase in the fire.

[Warren Kiefer]

Thanks for the link to the handbook. I will read it sometime this week.

Z

If I were in a home with the attic gas lines there is no doubt what I would do. I would have the gas shut off at the meter and convert all my appliances to electric. If you wonder why I say this, you must have not read the news reports of these lines being hit by lighting and ruptering causing a unreal increase in the fire.

[cwbrandt]

Thank you Very much for posting this information. This has been on my endless list of things to look into for months now.

Now, does anyone have an electrician who can handle this?

[anne321]

Welcome to TOTV, anne321 - interesting first post. Just wondering why you are concerned about gas installations in attics...do you live here, are you looking to buy or move to a house here that has a gas utility, do you know someone who installs the protective bonding device, or do you need a referaal to someone who does the bonding protection. TOTVers ave lots of experience at lots of things - if there is an answer to you inquiry, someone will offer it here.

I recently learned that very important fire safety measures in a home that I live in were not done when they were built. These measures are required by law and well known to the people who built the villages. It is my understanding that the Villages has even offered vouchers to people in the have these major code violations fixed. Building and allowing people to live in homes that burn down to the slab when they shouldnt is not a very freindly thing to do.

[njbchbum]

I recently learned that very important fire safety measures in a home that I live in were not done when they were built. These measures are required by law and well known to the people who built the villages. It is my understanding that the Villages has even offered vouchers to people in the have these major code violations fixed. Building and allowing people to live in homes that burn down to the slab when they shouldnt is not a very freindly thing to do.

Very interesting, ann321. Who did your home inspection? Have you tried to obtain one of those vouchers? Did you get one? Who does a concerned resident contact?

[graciegirl]

I still don't get what the problem is. When we bought our first house here in 2006 they had stopped using natural gas in homes. They had gone to all electric. Some people opted to have propane.

[graciegirl]

I recently learned that very important fire safety measures in a home that I live in were not done when they were built. These measures are required by law and well known to the people who built the villages. It is my understanding that the Villages has even offered vouchers to people in the have these major code violations fixed. Building and allowing people to live in homes that burn down to the slab when they shouldnt is not a very freindly thing to do.

I think you have rewritten your post, just as I am rewriting this post.

Here are a couple of threads on building issues;

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/gas-lines-attic-lightning-prone-areas-15552/index4.html

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/air-conditioner-questions-46586/

[NoMoSno]

I recently learned that very important fire safety measures in a home that I live in were not done when they were built. These measures are required by law and well known to the people who built the villages. It is my understanding that the Villages has even offered vouchers to people in the have these major code violations fixed. Building and allowing people to live in homes that burn down to the slab when they shouldnt is not a very freindly thing to do.

I would ask the county building inspection dept, why a CO was issued for your house, with this code violation.

[graciegirl]

If iI were in a home with the attic gas lines there is no doubt what I would do. I would have the gas shut off at the meter and convert all my appliances to electric. If you wonder why I say this, you must have not read the news reports of these lines being hit by lighting and ruptering causing a unreal increase in the fire.

There are those that have propane, too, Warren. Heck I worry about lightning striking our little propane tank attached to the grill.

[JGVillages]

My home is almost 11 years old in Calumet Grove. We have CSST in our attic. I had Mike Scott Plumbing (licensed for gas installation and repair) come to my home this week to discuss this issue. Their gas man (25 years of gas experience) stated that a direct hit from lightning will breach almost anything, including CSST or hard pipe. He checked the CSST in my attic and it was bonded and grounded as required. We have a gas water heater, Furnace A/c, and Dryer. Options are: (1) Leave as is. (2) Replace the Attic CSST with hard pipe coming in my garage either along the floor or ceiling wall at a rough cost of $650. (3) replace all gas appliances with electric - New Furnace / Water Heater / Dryer + cost of electrical $$$$?. (4) Add lightning rod protection. Last week A-1 Lightning protection stated they could install a complete system(around $1800ish), with grounding the CSST and the manifold where the lines split in the attic to the appliances. If your specific lot has more sand soil than clay they will double the amount of grounding rods supposedly to compensate. Electric or gas won't matter much if you get a direct hit. I have not decided what to do or not do. Any one else in this position that has?

[CFrance]

Very interesting, ann321. Who did your home inspection? Have you tried to obtain one of those vouchers? Did you get one? Who does a concerned resident contact?
According to page 8 of the booklet Gracie provided the link for, what OP was told by Mr. Humphry at TECO is, in fact, true. At least, if you believe both the booklet and Mr. Humphry. I don't get why you're drilling her. This isn't the first time it's been brought up, either.

I'm glad we have all electric, although I really miss cooking with gas. If we had gas, I would be having someone from TECO come out to give me an opinion, and go from there.

[njbchbum]

According to page 8 of the booklet Gracie provided the link for, what OP was told by Mr. Humphry at TECO is, in fact, true. At least, if you believe both the booklet and Mr. Humphry. I don't get why you're drilling her. This isn't the first time it's been brought up, either.

I'm glad we have all electric, although I really miss cooking with gas. If we had gas, I would be having someone from TECO come out to give me an opinion, and go from there.

CFrance - Sorry you perceive me to be drilling anne321. I will advise you of my personal need by PM rather than hang my laundry here for all to be exposed to. I'll just crawl back under my rock and only come back to play Pollyanna.

[anne321]

I have read some of the posts about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing and Fire Safety. Some people of the have asked what the interest in this subject is. I live in one of these homes and when i moved to the Villages the last thing i thougt I would have to worry about was my home burning to the slab. If you Google Stainless Steel tubing you will find out the Corrugatted Stainless Steel Tubing in Attics in the Villages is not installed as required by the National Fire Protection Association Fire Codes [NFPA]. Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in Attics in the Villages is not installed the way that the Corrugated Steel Tubing Manufacture require it to be so that it will be safe and there will be no fire or explosion in homes. Corruggated stainless Steel Tubing in the Villagges Attics is not in any way shape or form installed the way TECO Gas recommends and requires in order to keep homes from burning down. it is abosuletly Critical that Corruggated Stainless Steel Tubing be Bonded and grounded at the house side of the Gas Meter as close as possible to the Gas Meter to the Electrical Panel Ground and main House Ground. If this is not done it can cause FIRES AND EXPLOSIONS IN PARTICULARLY WHEN LIGHTING IS INVOLVED. You do not have to take my word about this all you have to do is check it out. The real question in this matter is why this was not done when the homes were built as everyone was well aware of this. EVERY HOME IN THE VILLAGES SHOULD BE CHECKED AND IF NOT IN COMPLAINCE WITH ALL FIRE AND LIFE SAFETY CODES SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY FIXED. I HAVE LOOKED IN THE VILLAGES AND HAVE NOT SEEN ONE HOME THAT HAS A SAFE INSTALLATION. iT IS ONLY AMATTER OF TIME BEFORE SOMEONE DIES BECAUSE OF THIS. WHERE IS THE DEVELOPER IN THIS AND MORE IMPORTANT WHERE WAS THE DEVELOPER WHEN THIS WAS DONE.

[graciegirl]

I have read some of the posts about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing and Fire Safety. Some people of the have asked what the interest in this subject is. I live in one of these homes and when i moved to the Villages the last thing i thougt I would have to worry about was my home burning to the slab. If you Google Stainless Steel tubing you will find out the Corrugatted Stainless Steel Tubing in Attics in the Villages is not installed as required by the National Fire Protection Association Fire Codes [NFPA]. Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing in Attics in the Villages is not installed the way that the Corrugated Steel Tubing Manufacture require it to be so that it will be safe and there will be no fire or explosion in homes. Corruggated stainless Steel Tubing in the Villagges Attics is not in any way shape or form installed the way TECO Gas recommends and requires in order to keep homes from burning down. it is abosuletly Critical that Corruggated Stainless Steel Tubing be Bonded and grounded at the house side of the Gas Meter as close as possible to the Gas Meter to the Electrical Panel Ground and main House Ground. If this is not done it can cause FIRES AND EXPLOSIONS IN PARTICULARLY WHEN LIGHTING IS INVOLVED. You do not have to take my word about this all you have to do is check it out. The real question in this matter is why this was not done when the homes were built as everyone was well aware of this. EVERY HOME IN THE VILLAGES SHOULD BE CHECKED AND IF NOT IN COMPLAINCE WITH ALL FIRE AND LIFE SAFETY CODES SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY FIXED. I HAVE LOOKED IN THE VILLAGES AND HAVE NOT SEEN ONE HOME THAT HAS A SAFE INSTALLATION. iT IS ONLY AMATTER OF TIME BEFORE SOMEONE DIES BECAUSE OF THIS. WHERE IS THE DEVELOPER IN THIS AND MORE IMPORTANT WHERE WAS THE DEVELOPER WHEN THIS WAS DONE.


Is it to local building code? You are mentioning some criteria that may be superior to our building code here. Codes differ and expectations differ. On the thread below some have paid to have this further protected. I would NOT want gas or propane nearby with the lightning being so frequent here.

Here is yet another thread; https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/contractors-services-91/galvanized-gas-pipes-attic-24497/

[Bizdoc]

Before you making sweeping statements about "every home in The Villages", you might want to do a little fact checking. Many of us live in areas which do not have natural gas.

[DonH57]

Our home among the others on our street have no gas appliances.

[CFrance]

Before you making sweeping statements about "every home in The Villages", you might want to do a little fact checking. Many of us live in areas which do not have natural gas.
I think it's pretty obvious OP meant those with gas homes should have their tubing checked.

Gracie, is there any way to find out if, indeed, they offered coupons for a fix for this in the past?

[anne321]

Is it to local building code? You are mentioning some criteria that may be superior to our building code here. Codes differ and expectations differ. On the thread below some have paid to have this further protected. I would NOT want gas or propane nearby with the lightning being so frequent here.

Here is yet another thread; https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/contractors-services-91/galvanized-gas-pipes-attic-24497/

It does not matter what code is involved the siaution as it exists is very unsafe and extremely dangerous. the only reason there has not been serious injury and even death is that these home have no one living in the for a large part of the year. Not Grounding and bonding Corrugated Stainlees Steel Tubing and in particular running the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing near a Gas Furance exhaust that sticks 6 ft into the air above the roof and acts like a natural lighting is so unbelivablely dangerous that you can not imagine how bad this is. You can delude your self into thinking that this is safe you can stick your head into the sand like a ostrich and ignore this but it is estasblished fact about these matters and the sooner Villagers take this seriously the better chance they have to keep there homes intact.

[graciegirl]

It does not matter what code is involved the siaution as it exists is very unsafe and extremely dangerous. the only reason there has not been serious injury and even death is that these home have no one living in the for a large part of the year. Not Grounding and bonding Corrugated Stainlees Steel Tubing and in particular running the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing near a Gas Furance exhaust that sticks 6 ft into the air above the roof and acts like a natural lighting is so unbelivablely dangerous that you can not imagine how bad this is. You can delude your self into thinking that this is safe you can stick your head into the sand like a ostrich and ignore this but it is estasblished fact about these matters and the sooner Villagers take this seriously the better chance they have to keep there homes intact.


Legally it would matter if a home was built to code. If you feel that it is dangerous, you can have it removed I guess.

[anne321]

I think it's pretty obvious OP meant those with gas homes should have their tubing checked.

Gracie, is there any way to find out if, indeed, they offered coupons for a fix for this in the past?

It is my understanding that this very subject was discussed at the last Property Owners Association meeting. The Villages knows about this problem and always has. Some people who realizied what was going on got vouchers to have the firecode violations fixed but others wer told that there were no more Vouchers and that they should live with it.

[anne321]

Legally it would matter if a home was built to code. If you feel that it is dangerous, you can have it removed I guess.

It does not matter what code is involved where if something is serious enough to cause death and serious injury it can not be done.

[mulligan]

What was the code requirement when the homes were built? It was at least 3 but might be 4 years since they stopped putting gas lines in the street. Building codes are in a constant state of change.

[graciegirl]

Here it is. It was a national problem.

CSST Settlement - Home Page (http://www.pddocs.com/csst/)

[CFrance]

It does not matter what code is involved where if something is serious enough to cause death and serious injury it can not be done.
Ah, but it does matter what the code was when the house was built. If it was built to existing code, it's not the builder's or developer's problem to fix. It's the owner's problem.

[anne321]

I was not at the last POA meeting but I was told that the subject of Vouchers came up at that meeting and that at one time the Villages had recognized that this Fire and Life Safety Code Violations existed and they gave people vouchers to correct these violations. They only gave Vouchers to some people and then told the rest of the people that they had run out and to live with it. This information came from some who i would consider to be very relaible source but it would be very easy to check.

[graciegirl]

Anne is very worried about this. She has started two threads in the last few days.

Here is the issue that was national.

CSST Settlement - Home Page (http://www.pddocs.com/csst/)

If the homes were built to code, perhaps the code has been changed.

[rubicon]

It is my understanding that this very subject was discussed at the last Property Owners Association meeting. The Villages knows about this problem and always has. Some people who realizied what was going on got vouchers to have the firecode violations fixed but others wer told that there were no more Vouchers and that they should live with it.

anne: This topic is of great concern so please cite your authority. do you have documentation that those homes built in TV with gas appliances are not built to code . (NPFA) has very complicated rules and there are times when an alternative is permissible. How do you know TV knows about this problem? Also do you know for certain that TV issued vouchers, and if so, why TV stopped? Do you know if the POA is pursuing this safety issue and in what manner? I intend to make inquiries on my own. I am thankful that you cared enough to post but your posts left me thinking "but we don't know that?" Please in the future include more information as suggested above. If you cannot produce such documentation then simply state that ----is looking into safety concerns related to---- and leave it at that

[graciegirl]

I was not at the last POA meeting but I was told that the subject of Vouchers came up at that meeting and that at one time the Villages had recognized that this Fire and Life Safety Code Violations existed and they gave people vouchers to correct these violations. They only gave Vouchers to some people and then told the rest of the people that they had run out and to live with it. This information came from some who i would consider to be very relaible source but it would be very easy to check.


Perhaps it was the company that made CSST pipe that gave the vouchers?

CSST Settlement - Home Page (http://www.pddocs.com/csst/)

[anne321]

What was the code requirement when the homes were built? It was at least 3 but might be 4 years since they stopped putting gas lines in the street. Building codes are in a constant state of change.

Teco gas has said that it was always a code requirement and it always has been. It does not matter about any of this discussion if these practices are known to be Unsafe and can cause fires and explosions and kill and injure people YOU JUST DO DO THINGS THAT WAY IF IT IS UNSAFE AND VERY DANGEROUS I NOT SURE WHAT PART OF THAT YOU DO NOT GET.

[anne321]

anne: This topic is of great concern so please cite your authority. do you have documentation that those homes built in TV with gas appliances are not built to code . (NPFA) has very complicated rules and there are times when an alternative is permissible. How do you know TV knows about this problem? Also do you know for certain that TV issued vouchers, and if so, why TV stopped? Do you know if the POA is pursuing this safety issue and in what manner? I intend to make inquiries on my own. I am thankful that you cared enough to post but your posts left me thinking "but we don't know that?" Please in the future include more information as suggested above. If you cannot produce such documentation then simply state that ----is looking into safety concerns related to---- and leave it at that

It does not matter if it is unsafe it is unsafe. Call TECO GAS get there 16 page Booklet on GAS on page 8 it in the middle of the page IT STATES that ( IF YOU FIND CORRUGATED STAINLESS STEEL TUBING IN YOUR HOME YOU SHOULD IMEDIATELY CONTACT A LICENSED ELECTRICAN TO INSPECT AND INSURE THAT THE CORRUGATED STAINLESS STEEL TUBING IS PROPERLY GROUNDED AND BONDED TO PREVENT LEAKS AND FIRES.) YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS CALL TECO. GOOGLE STAINLESS STEEL TUBING AND READ WHAT IT SAYS.

[NoMoSno]

Teco gas has said that it was always a code requirement and it always has been.

The county building inspector should not have approved Teco to put gas in the system, if it was not complying with the code requirements.
If they did, the county and the installer and Teco should be liable.
Regardless, If your installation is not up to current codes, have the work done :shrug:

[bargee]

When I return to The Villages in the fall the first thing I will do is contact an electrician and have my home inspected and corrected.It is my understanding when my house was built (2000) that the code did not require bonding and grounding of CSST gas lines,I could be wrong.

[CFrance]

Okay, you've gotten the word out, ann. No need for the all-caps shouting. People will do what they see fit with the information. If they insist on arguing with you, just ignore it. The thread will die off.

[Lightning]

CSST is legal in all 50 states. It was the subject of a 2007 class action lawsuit. There was a six month window to apply for a voucher that would offset the cost of a lightning protection system (lightning rods). The CSST manufacturers insist that their product is safety if it is properly bonded and grounded with a No. 6 bare copper conductor on the gas manifold in the attic that is connected to the main electric panel ground.

[Bogie Shooter]

I was not at the last POA meeting but I was told that the subject of Vouchers came up at that meeting and that at one time the Villages had recognized that this Fire and Life Safety Code Violations existed and they gave people vouchers to correct these violations. They only gave Vouchers to some people and then told the rest of the people that they had run out and to live with it. This information came from some who i would consider to be very relaible source but it would be very easy to check.

When you checked, what did you find out?

[cc1246]

I understand they quit putting in gas lines because Teco felt the way they were installed was not safe.

[CFrance]

I understand they quit putting in gas lines because Teco felt the way they were installed was not safe.
My understanding was that when the developer negotiated with Sumter County to build down here, he had to make certain concessions so as to not use up too many of their natural resources. Going all electric was one of them.

That was what our realtor told us, anyway. But then another realtor told us they quit building models and furnishing them, and people on here say that's not true. So who knows.

[zcaveman]

The vouchers were a long time ago but if I remember they did not get you free lightning rods. You still had to pay something.

I do remember that I passed because it was not as good as a deal as I thought.

Z

[anne321]

I still don't get what the problem is. When we bought our first house here in 2006 they had stopped using natural gas in homes. They had gone to all electric. Some people opted to have propane.

If you do not get what the problem is GOOGlE Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing and read the articles. The way the Corrugated Steel Tubing is installed in attics Villages cause fires and explosion. There is nothing to get. You can choose to ignore the facts but the facts are there. If you understand what the problem is you would not want your grandchildren to sleep in these homes. You can think what you want. This a known very dangerous siaution. If you read the Google articles aboutCorrugated Stainless Steel Tubing you will find that just about anbody who has anything to do with this siaution agrees the way this gas pipe is installed in the Villages it can burn your house down.

[anne321]

CFrance - Sorry you perceive me to be drilling anne321. I will advise you of my personal need by PM rather than hang my laundry here for all to be exposed to. I'll just crawl back under my rock and only come back to play Pollyanna.

Corrugatted Stainless Steel Tubing as it is installed in the manner that is in the Villages is Dangerous. If you think that is something that is funny or amusing or unimportant than you are nor looking at the facts. It is not funny, it is not amusing and it is not unimportant. It is burning homes in the Villages down to the slab. It will keep doing this till it is fixed.

[anne321]

Anne is very worried about this. She has started two threads in the last few days.

Here is the issue that was national.

CSST Settlement - Home Page (http://www.pddocs.com/csst/)

If the homes were built to code, perhaps the code has been changed.

The key to this settelement if you read it is that they assert that Stainless Steel Tubing is safe only if it is installed properley. That means bonding and grounding the Corrugated Stainless Steel tubing as close as possible to the metter on the house side with Number 6 wire to the electrical panel ground and main house ground and not routing the Corrugated Stainless Steel tubing next to any metal object in particular the Gas Exhaust from the Furance that projects 6 feet into the air and act like a lighting rod. The Settlement states correctly installed Stainless Steel Tubing is safe and that the problem is with Corrugated Stainless Tubing that is not installed correctly. If you can walk around the Villages and find where these Corrugated Stainless Steel Pipes are Grounded and Bonded at the gas meter and connected to the eletrical panel and main ground I would like to see them. Other wise you are dreaming about this.

[perrjojo]

I don't know if there is an agenda but here is what I can tell you from my similar experience. In 2000 we bought a home that was built in 1991. It was not here in TV. Our home was built to code and and acceptable specifications at THAT time. After we purchased our home it was discovered that polybutylene plumbing would burst without warning over time. We discovered that Synthetic Stucco had major mold problems. Guess what? We had both. We paid 6000 dollars to replace the plumbing and another 6ooo for stucco remediation and protection. Who's fault was that? It was no ones fault because it was built to code at the time and problems were discovered later. who paid for this! We did. Stuff happens. There were class action suits but we were not eligible because we did not wait for the impending disaster. We felt better having peace of mind. There are many building products that have been used and later found to be unreliable. Stuff happens. I hate it when it happens to me. Who is to blame? Beats me! Stuff happens! If you feel uncomfortable with your gas plumbing...replace it...but it was an acceptable building product at the time it was installed.

[janmcn]

There's more to this than meets the eye.


For those of us laymen who have never heard of this issue before, what is the hidden agenda posters keep alluding to? There must be a reason so many homes in The Villages have burned to the ground after being struck by lightning. Some of us are very interested in this subject.

[CFrance]

I don't know if there is an agenda but here is what I can tell you from my similar experience. In 2000 we bought a home that was built in 1991. It was not here in TV. Our home was built to code and and acceptable specifications at THAT time. After we purchased our home it was discovered that polybutylene plumbing would burst without warning over time. We discovered that Synthetic Stucco had major mold problems. Guess what? We had both. We paid 6000 dollars to replace the plumbing and another 6ooo for stucco remediation and protection. Who's fault was that? It was no ones fault because it was built to code at the time and problems were discovered later. who paid for this! We did. Stuff happens. There were class action suits but we were not eligible because we did not wait for the impending disaster. We felt better having peace of mind. There are many building products that have been used and later found to be unreliable. Stuff happens. I hate it when it happens to me. Who is to blame? Beats me! Stuff happens! If you feel uncomfortable with your gas plumbing...replace it...but it was an acceptable building product at the time it was installed.
We also had homes with things that were built to code and later proven to be fire hazards. What comes to mind first was a house we built in the early '70s that had a laundry chute. Big fire hazards, and illegal in PA shortly thereafter.

Then we had a house in NJ that had aluminum wiring, and that became a fire hazard. All these things were to code at the time. We had the laundry chute closed off in the PA house and replaced the wiring at the receptacles throughout the house in NJ as per the method recommended.

To those that are asking, the OP had been to a POA meeting where this was brought up. I wonder (but cannot prove) if the "agenda" is to get people riled up enough to bring another class action suit. ONLY MY SPECULATION.

If the purpose was just to make people aware of the safety issue, the first thread would have covered it. We may hear more about this in the future.

Just my opinion.

[sailor47]

It seems to me a simple solution is in the wings but I can't find it. Maybe some of you plumbers/electricians know of this solution.

In my previous life I was a machine designer and some of our products were Ovens, really big ovens that were in some cases big enough to put a car body in and were several hundred feet long. Any way we had exhaust ducts that sometimes went through fire walls. At these areas we had to install a fire damper. It was a damper designed to shut automatically when a fusible link was activated by excessive high temps. Like a fire in the oven. They also shut down the gas train to the oven because the airflow stopped.

There are automatic gas shut off valves that are earthquake activated. They are used to shut down the main line in the event of an earthquake.

It seems to me there should be a thermal activated gas valve that we could use in our homes. The sensor would need to be in the actic and the valve right after the meter outside the house. It could also be a high flow shut off valve.

I like gas for it's economics and particullarly for cooking. So I feel fortunate that I live in a neighborhood that has gas. BTW I think the last house that burnt to the slab because of a lightening strike was all electric. I could be wrong on that.

Any of you experts know of an thermal automatic valve.

[REDCART]

It seems to me a simple solution is in the wings but I can't find it...There are automatic gas shut off valves that are earthquake activated. They are used to shut down the main line.

In addition to earthquake gas shut off valves, triggered by seismic events, there are also excess flow gas shut off valves triggered by a gas line break. Sounds like a less costly solution to replacing csst gas line.

[T-325]

Wonder why a simple replumb using black pipe wouldn't be done? It is economical, sturdy and easy to ground.

Up in boston a plastic tube was used by the gas company to replace our 40 year old line. Note the plastic tube was fished thru the existing underground line.

[graciegirl]

Wonder why a simple replumb using black pipe wouldn't be done? It is economical, sturdy and easy to ground.

Up in boston a plastic tube was used by the gas company to replace our 40 year old line. Note the plastic tube was fished thru the existing underground line.


What we don't know is whether the OP has this problem and doesn't know how to get it fixed, doesn't have this problem but concerned that other people do, or has spoken to a contractor about it and wonders if it is covered under some program. There was some reference in one of her posts to the POA. Has anyone seen this issue discussed in their newsletter?

[sailor47]

From what I have been able to find out Black Iron ot Galv. Pipe would still likely be ruptured or perforated due to a direct lightening strike.

High flow shutoff valves are a potential solution. The are limited however. Most of the investigations showed the gas lines with small perforations. The valve would not detect that meanwhile a deadly pocket of gas would develop. Eventually the pipe would break and the valve would shut things down.

[Omike]

Ok folks. Everyone relax. Yes the gas lines need to be bonded. In the villages in every home I've been in during construction ( thousands) all of the home with gas are bonded during the electrical rough in. It is code and these home would have never passed inspection had they not been bonded.

[RErmer]

Ok folks. Everyone relax. Yes the gas lines need to be bonded. In the villages in every home I've been in during construction ( thousands) all of the home with gas are bonded during the electrical rough in. It is code and these home would have never passed inspection had they not been bonded.

:BigApplause:

[Indydealmaker]

Ok folks. Everyone relax. Yes the gas lines need to be bonded. In the villages in every home I've been in during construction ( thousands) all of the home with gas are bonded during the electrical rough in. It is code and these home would have never passed inspection had they not been bonded.

Omike, you should be ashamed of yourself! Spoiling everybody's fun by using first person observation and experience based facts! You know that mindless speculation and liberal dispersion of rumors is way more fun!

[CFrance]

Omike, you should be ashamed of yourself! Spoiling everybody's fun by using first person observation and experience based facts! You know that mindless speculation and liberal dispersion of rumors is way more fun!
Yeah, and not only that, now we can't fight anymore. Grrr...:mad:

[Omike]

My apologies!! I won't let it happen again. I never meant to ruin the fun.....lol!

[CFrance]

My apologies!! I won't let it happen again. I never meant to ruin the fun.....lol!
No worries. We'll just have to find something else to argue about!

[perrjojo]

As I always like to say...why confuse an issue with facts?

[anne321]

Look at the homes in the villages and tell people where the bonded homes are.

[anne321]

Free voucher are not if there is something that seriously affect the public safety of your home you should find out what should be done All I have ever said is read what is going on and decide for your self.

[anne321]

Either the NFPA is dead wrong or The Villages Public Safety is wrong There have been much discussion and many replies and posts about Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. Every single thing that has been written about this subject and how this product should be installed says that it has to be grounded and bonded to the homes electrical system and it can not be run near things like gas exhaust. I have been unable to find this product to be installed safely any where that I have looked. I do not know how many homes are involved in this but if you took a guess and said 20,000 that would involve 40,000 people. It does not matter how many people it is any or to many. Either the NFPA is wrong or the Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing Manufacturing Companies or wrong or any number of other agencies or wrong. The problem here is that somebody could be dead wrong. Contact the Villages Public Safety Department and ask them if the NFPA is wrong. If the NFPA and a lot of other people are right exactly what is the Villages Public Safety Department going to do to protect the people of the Villages Public Safety and when where they thinking of doing it. This is not a leak under the kitchen sink. This subject needs to be investigated by the Villages Public Safety Department and if is determined that there is any Fire or Life Safety Hazards to the People of the Villages then a plan needs to made to correct any type of dangerous or unsafe practices. THIS SUBJECT NEEDS TO BE PUT TO BED ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I feel that the dialogue that has been started on this subject be continued and discussed in till it is determined exactly what is going on.

[Omike]

If the home was built with gas then in the attic near the garage access there is a manifold which will have a bare copper wire clamped to it. That wire runs directly to the grounding bar in the electrical panel.

[kittygilchrist]

///

[Mikeod]

I am unsure of your goal in this matter. Your original post informed readers of the potential danger with CSST in their homes. Thank you for that.

But where I get confused is the subsequent posts.

These homes were built to the code as it existed when the CO was issued. If the code was updated/changed at a later date, it is not the responsibility of the builder to retrofit the home to the new standard. Your posts seem to imply that either the homes were not built to the existing code, which would mean that the CO should not have been issued. Or that it somehow is the responsibility of the developer or builder to retrofit all the homes to the new code.

The vouchers you refer to were not to address the CSST directly, but were to defray part of the cost of a lightning protection system that would ground the CSST. That program existed for a specific period, then ended about six years ago.

The NFPA website indicates they are still studying CSST. Under the FAQ section on gas lines, they say that they were advised that bonding may reduce the number of failures and they will continue to study the subject.

So, other than stimulating residents to get their CSST grounded or replaced, what do you wish to see happen?

[Indydealmaker]

There are times that the unfiltered data that can be accessed on the internet can be as insidious and alarming as the information contained on the little pamphlets that come with your prescription medications.

One must just remember that science is not exact.

The law is not black or white.

Data is often outdated or contradicted by a myriad of unsearched documents.

Most perceived conspiracies are simply the result of the misapplication of information sucked from the internet and over-seasoned with anecdotal tales of fraud and smoke-filled back-room deals.

[Moderator]

Per site guidelines, duplicate threads are not allowed. So, multiple threads on this one topic were merged into one. Posts appear chronologically but may appear out of order if posts were being done to different threads at the same time.

A reminder, please stay on topic and be factual, not emotional, or this thread (and any similar attempts to create duplicates) will be closed.

Moderator

[graciegirl]

I am unsure of your goal in this matter. Your original post informed readers of the potential danger with CSST in their homes. Thank you for that.

But where I get confused is the subsequent posts.

These homes were built to the code as it existed when the CO was issued. If the code was updated/changed at a later date, it is not the responsibility of the builder to retrofit the home to the new standard. Your posts seem to imply that either the homes were not built to the existing code, which would mean that the CO should not have been issued. Or that it somehow is the responsibility of the developer or builder to retrofit all the homes to the new code.

The vouchers you refer to were not to address the CSST directly, but were to defray part of the cost of a lightning protection system that would ground the CSST. That program existed for a specific period, then ended about six years ago.

The NFPA website indicates they are still studying CSST. Under the FAQ section on gas lines, they say that they were advised that bonding may reduce the number of failures and they will continue to study the subject.

So, other than stimulating residents to get their CSST grounded or replaced, what do you wish to see happen?


Great posts Mike and Steve.

[anne321]

There has been a lot of interest and discussion on TOTV Fire and Life Safety issues and Gas Piping in the villages. I have been told that there many ongoing Class action lawsuits ongoing right now and these suits are finding the gas piping to be dangerous even when properly grounded and bonded and the gas piping is being replaced because it is considered unsafe. Google the Subject and you find information on the subject.

[Indydealmaker]

There has been a lot of interest and discussion on TOTV Fire and Life Safety issues and Gas Piping in the villages. I have been told that there many ongoing Class action lawsuits ongoing right now and these suits are finding the gas piping to be dangerous even when properly grounded and bonded and the gas piping is being replaced because it is considered unsafe. Google the Subject and you find information on the subject.

The moderator said not to start another thread on this topic.

I would also advise you to quit citing nameless third party sources for your diatribe.

[cattywampus]

There has been a lot of interest and discussion on TOTV Fire and Life Safety issues and Gas Piping in the villages. I have been told that there many ongoing Class action lawsuits ongoing right now and these suits are finding the gas piping to be dangerous even when properly grounded and bonded and the gas piping is being replaced because it is considered unsafe. Google the Subject and you find information on the subject.

THANK YOU For the reminder.

MY Own Son, who has a HVAC business, was wary of
staying in our VILLAGES home with the CSST gas piping
He stated
" If I am ever here during a lightning storm, I will sleep in my rental car
or a Hotel that does not have CSST gas pipe.'

His advice " Get rid of that stuff ( CSST )"

He further stated

That even with proper grounding and bonding AND Lightning Rod Protection ,
the potential for MASSIVE fires fueled by the Natural Gas is possible.

That the Class B chimney venting the furnace flue could cause an arc to the CSST feeding the furnace.

Said the chimney is highest point of the home and you know how lightning goes for tallest metal objects.

A fire originated by ANY cause could cause that CSST to be easily breached.
That would cause the fire to be further fueled by the NATGAS.


I "GOOGLED" CSST gas line lawsuits.

Lots of lawsuits ongoing and Class Action Suits are being Developed.

Found Central Florida Law firm of Morgan and Morgan is currently
collecting data, as we speak, to develop a Class Action Suit.

Who knew that NEW lawsuits are happening ALL over the USA.

[cattywampus]

Oh Yeah, I forgot.

The IRONY of it all.

Pittsburg PA area Law Firms are developing a
Class-Action Lawsuit against the makers of
flexible CSST Gas lines.

Joe Bellissimo an Attorney from the Pittsburg PA area
also has a home and office in
New Smyrna Beach, FL.

The Florida home was quickly Totally Incinerated in a fire.

The cause was determined to be a Lightning Strike.

The factor causing the RAPID and total loss of the home,
the CSST gas piping was breached by the arcing caused by the lightning
which allowed the uncontrolled NATGAS to spew out and fuel the fire.

He said he was glad his wife and kids were not there when it happened

[Moderator]

OP started another new thread on this topic last night. We have merged the posts from that thread into this older one so as to not have duplicates.

However, if this thread veers off topic or additional attempts are made to start new threads, the thread(s) will be closed.

Moderator

[jflynn1]

Gracie

These codes DO NOT APPLY to the issue.

[Doro22]

Thank you, OP for all this info. We are now checking into having all gas removed from our home. Has anyone done this? We already took out the gas stove and gave it to a workman & replaced it with an electric stove.

[Bogie Shooter]

Class action lawsuit.................another opportunity for the lawyers to get rich!

[graciegirl]

Gracie

These codes DO NOT APPLY to the issue.

WHAT codes do you speak of? I am a firm believer that everything is to code in the homes here.

Please come back on and tell us exactly what you mean and who told you. The OP has NEVER explained what her issue is and I am sure with all of the independent building inspectors we would have heard if there is something not to code. Personally I think all inflammables are a risk with the lightning strikes we have here, but that doesn't mean things aren't to code. I suspect this all stems from someone who enjoys stirring the pot and casting about rumors and innuendoes to damage the reputation of the developer.

The question was addressed in the POA bulletin but the answer did not to me clearly explain that the "vouchers" were from the manufacturer of CSST piping and did not come from the developer.

[graciegirl]

WHAT codes do you speak of? I am a firm believer that everything is to code in the homes here.

Please come back on and tell us exactly what you mean and who told you. The OP has never CLEARLY explained what her issue is and WHO she blames and WHAT she wants done about it.

I am sure with all of the independent building inspectors we would have heard if there is something not to code. I suspect this all stems from someone who enjoys stirring the pot and casting about rumors and innuendoes to damage the reputation of the developer.

The question was addressed in the POA bulletin but the answer did not to me clearly explain that the "vouchers" were from the manufacturer of CSST piping and did not come from the developer.Also that it was a national issue.

bump

[dbussone]

WHAT codes do you speak of? I am a firm believer that everything is to code in the homes here.

Please come back on and tell us exactly what you mean and who told you. The OP has NEVER explained what her issue is and I am sure with all of the independent building inspectors we would have heard if there is something not to code. Personally I think all inflammables are a risk with the lightning strikes we have here, but that doesn't mean things aren't to code. I suspect this all stems from someone who enjoys stirring the pot and casting about rumors and innuendoes to damage the reputation of the developer.

The question was addressed in the POA bulletin but the answer did not to me clearly explain that the "vouchers" were from the manufacturer of CSST piping and did not come from the developer.

When we had our home inspection at the end of our first year I asked the inspector about code compliance. He stated all TV homes are built to code. Although he is now an independent inspector, at one time he ran TV Warranty Department. I would think he should know! So I am a firm believer as well.

[janmcn]

It would be interesting to see the location of the homes that burned to the ground from lightning strikes in The Villages. Did all of these homes have the corrugated stainless steel tubing in the attic, or were some of them totally electric?

[784caroline]

You have a combination ..some where gas and some were electric homes. I know the most recent premier in Pinellas (4,000sf home and 2000sf garage)was all electric.

[Lightning]

It would be interesting to see the location of the homes that burned to the ground from lightning strikes in The Villages. Did all of these homes have the corrugated stainless steel tubing in the attic, or were some of them totally electric?

In the last 10 years 10 homes have been destroyed by lightning. Nine had CSST. The June fire in Pinellas was the first all electric home to be destroyed. There may be circumstantial evidence that CSST was involved in the nine events but as far as I have able to determine the homeowner insurance carriers forensic engineers report (assuming there was one) is a proprietary document. In once case even the homeowner was unable to obtain it. It is up to the insurance carrier to decide if they will initiate a lawsuit against the responsible party.

There is a lot of discussion on this thread about bonding and grounding. The current thinking (pending the outcome of some studies going on with the NFPA) this only applies to an INDIRECT lightning strike. That is one that strikes nearby your home but does not directly hit your home. The CSST industry says if you experience a DIRECT strike there is no piping that can stand up to forces that can be generated in such an event. The manufactures of CSST include rigid steel pipe in this category. Therefore, if your concern is a DIRECT strike you should consider a lightning protection system per NFPA 780, “particularly in areas prone to lightning”. See the July POA Bulletin that can be found on line for more information.

CSST, in spite of the 2007 class action lawsuit, is legal in all 50 states. The class action lawsuit was not a recall it was for failure to warn the users of the product.

One final point - there is a lot of discussion about TECO. TECO, like all utilities, is only responsible up to their meter. On the customer side of the meter the responsibility is between you the homeowner and a qualified and licensed gas plumbing firm and for bonding and grounding a licensed electrician.

[Indydealmaker]

In the last 10 years 10 homes have been destroyed by lightning. Nine had CSST. The June fire in Pinellas was the first all electric home to be destroyed. There may be circumstantial evidence that CSST was involved in the nine events but as far as I have able to determine the homeowner insurance carriers forensic engineers report (assuming there was one) is a proprietary document. In once case even the homeowner was unable to obtain it. It is up to the insurance carrier to decide if they will initiate a lawsuit against the responsible party.

There is a lot of discussion on this thread about bonding and grounding. The current thinking (pending the outcome of some studies going on with the NFPA) this only applies to an INDIRECT lightning strike. That is one that strikes nearby your home but does not directly hit your home. The CSST industry says if you experience a DIRECT strike there is no piping that can stand up to forces that can be generated in such an event. The manufactures of CSST include rigid steel pipe in this category. Therefore, if your concern is a DIRECT strike you should consider a lightning protection system per NFPA 780, “particularly in areas prone to lightning”. See the July POA Bulletin that can be found on line for more information.

CSST, in spite of the 2007 class action lawsuit, is legal in all 50 states. The class action lawsuit was not a recall it was for failure to warn the users of the product.

One final point - there is a lot of discussion about TECO. TECO, like all utilities, is only responsible up to their meter. On the customer side of the meter the responsibility is between you the homeowner and a qualified and licensed gas plumbing firm and for bonding and grounding a licensed electrician.

Very helpful information, as always. Thanks.

[Bogie Shooter]

In the last 10 years 10 homes have been destroyed by lightning. Nine had CSST. The June fire in Pinellas was the first all electric home to be destroyed. There may be circumstantial evidence that CSST was involved in the nine events but as far as I have able to determine the homeowner insurance carriers forensic engineers report (assuming there was one) is a proprietary document. In once case even the homeowner was unable to obtain it. It is up to the insurance carrier to decide if they will initiate a lawsuit against the responsible party.

There is a lot of discussion on this thread about bonding and grounding. The current thinking (pending the outcome of some studies going on with the NFPA) this only applies to an INDIRECT lightning strike. That is one that strikes nearby your home but does not directly hit your home. The CSST industry says if you experience a DIRECT strike there is no piping that can stand up to forces that can be generated in such an event. The manufactures of CSST include rigid steel pipe in this category. Therefore, if your concern is a DIRECT strike you should consider a lightning protection system per NFPA 780, “particularly in areas prone to lightning”. See the July POA Bulletin that can be found on line for more information.

CSST, in spite of the 2007 class action lawsuit, is legal in all 50 states. The class action lawsuit was not a recall it was for failure to warn the users of the product.

One final point - there is a lot of discussion about TECO. TECO, like all utilities, is only responsible up to their meter. On the customer side of the meter the responsibility is between you the homeowner and a qualified and licensed gas plumbing firm and for bonding and grounding a licensed electrician.

All those many wild opinions about this topic and finally a fact filled post. Thanks for summing it all up.

[anne321]

The Florida department of Emergency Management is making inquires into if CSST is properly installed in the Villages. There is concern that CSST itself is a dangerous product. Even if you give that is safe if it is not installed properly to Manufactures installation instructions. NFPA, NEC, and other mechanical codes then it not considered safe. The installation is the key to all of this. It is my understanding that The Sumter County Building Official, and the Villages Fire Marshall have been asked to inspect these homes and certify in writing that the CSST as it is installed in these homes in the Villages is completely safe in particular to check the installation of CSST concerning grounding and bonding and the routing of CSST anywhere near metallic objects like the Gas Furnace Exhaust pipe. Whether CSST can be run near metal pipes or wiring. I would suggest that The Sumter County Building Official and the Villages Fire Marshal be contacted to get a written copy of there findings in relation to CSST installation and whether there are any Fire and Life Hazard's in these homes. They will be happy to provide you with a written copy of this information.

[njbchbum]

The Florida department of Emergency Management is making inquires into if CSST is properly installed in the Villages. There is concern that CSST itself is a dangerous product. Even if you give that is safe if it is not installed properly to Manufactures installation instructions. NFPA, NEC, and other mechanical codes then it not considered safe. The installation is the key to all of this. It is my understanding that The Sumter County Building Official, and the Villages Fire Marshall have been asked to inspect these homes and certify in writing that the CSST as it is installed in these homes in the Villages is completely safe in particular to check the installation of CSST concerning grounding and bonding and the routing of CSST anywhere near metallic objects like the Gas Furnace Exhaust pipe. Whether CSST can be run near metal pipes or wiring. I would suggest that The Sumter County Building Official and the Villages Fire Marshal be contacted to get a written copy of there findings in relation to CSST installation and whether there are any Fire and Life Hazard's in these homes. They will be happy to provide you with a written copy of this information.


From where do you get your 'understanding'?

[eremite06]

The Villages has a "Fire Marshal?"

[mulligan]

Every public safety dep't. has a fire marshall, with the exception of some very small volunteer departments. One of their jobs is to enforce the life safety code.