Do You Think We Really Need A Change?

[Guest]

"Change" is the term that at least two of the Presidential hopefuls are running on. But I got to thinking today, do we really need a change in Washington?

Let's see what's happened in the last eight years...[br]


We're in the longest war in the nation's history, with no "victory" in sight. Almost 4,000 of our youngest generation have been killed and almost 50,000 more injured, many with lifelong disabilities. So far the Iraq war has cost each American family the better part of $10,000, with the cost escalating.



We've gone from almost a $3 trillion surplus in the federal Treasury to almost a $10 trillion deficit. We are now the world's biggest debtor nation by far.



The value of the U.S. dollar is now at its lowest point in history. Foreigners are visiting and buying up assets here in the U.S. at a record pace while Americans have to think twice about a foreign vacation.



Forty million Americans have no health care insurance while the cost of healthcare has been projected to double by the year 2017.



Even though virtually all the financial experts say that Social Security will be insolvent within a couple of decades, our federal elected officials have made no move to resolve the problem.


Our children's educational standards continue to decline. American kids rank below the top 25 countries in standardized tests at the high school level. Our legislators and elected leaders pontificate when American companies move jobs offshore, oftentimes saying that they simply can't get qualified and trained people to do the jobs here in the U.S.




Some of our elected leaders produce repeated soundbites objecting to "amnesty" for the 10-20 million people who have entered the U.S. illegally. Yet anyone with any common sense would conclude that it would be next to impossible to actually catch the illegals and send them home. And if we did, no one even mentions who would fill all the fruit-picking, maintenance, food service, construction and manufacturing jobs the illegals are currently performing. It's pretty easy to figure out what might happen here in The Villages if every worker who speaks little or no English suddenly disappeared. Think about it. And by the way, some experts have estimated that there has been little or no decline in the rate of illegal immigration into the U.S. That's notwithstanding more pontificating by our representatives about new and tougher border security


We've spent billions on "homeland security", yet almost every group who tries to demonstrate the inadequacies of say, airport security, are successful. Heck, several reporters were able to get bomb-making materials into LaGuardia Airport awhile back, then put them together and produced an explosion. And let's not even get started on whether we could deal with another Katrina.




Last but not least, by my count a little less than 5% of the members of the U.S. Congress have been indicted, convicted and sentenced, or are currently under federal investigation for various forms of fraud and influence peddling. And I haven't even begun to count the members of the Executive branch who have been similarly dealt with.



So the question on the table for each of us as we proceed into the election "season" seems to be...Is change in Washington really needed?

Someone convince me of what's going so well that change isn't needed...a LOT of it!

[Guest]

VK:

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:
A resounding YES from here!
And, frankly, we really need to start with the characters in Congress. Not only do they often have a propensity for shady dealings, but they also are increasingly incapable of understanding, supporting and/or believeing in our military establishment.

As a retired Reserve officer, I find myself more and more frustrated at these idiots' handling of everything they do, let along their overall incompetence with military affairs!

SWR

[Guest]

Darned good topic:

1. Iraq/Afghan War: Don't know what the "right" answer is here, except that history will tell, not us, whether the result was worth the cost. If one were to look back at Korea, Vietnam, Gulf I, Gulf II and all of the Baltic stuff the viewpoints would be varied depending on the criteria one wants to employ. Nobody likes casualties, especially those of us who have participated in any of the events listed above, but at the same time, nobody on this side of the oceans wants the dangers here.

2. The Debt: Almost all of the debt is related to national security - whether the expense is the current war, internal security upgrades or the rebuilding of the intelligence communnity that was sacrificed for the sake of $$$$. What we are experiencing in many cases reminds me of the old FRAM Oil Filter commercial - "Pay me now or pay me later." We are now living in the "later."

3. Currency Value: You want cheap goods (China, etc) which result in an upside-down currency flow? The effect is a weakened national currency. No free lunch here.

4. Health care: As long as health care is a free-market commodity, cost shall be influenced by supply and demand. If it becomes two-tiered (a "national" system supplemented by a free-market system), will that really make a difference to the situation of today? Just visit the average hospital's emergency room....?

5. Social Security: The Social Security mess can be tied to multiple events - all of which prove the "law of unintended consequences." The sad part is that the mess is the result of at least 30 years worth of actions which no one ever considered would affect the demographics of the social security contribution population or would tap into the fund. Democrats, Republicans and Independents - Legislative, Executive and Judicial branch folk combined - all share some of the blame for this.

6. Education: If one tracks the college board scores (the only real constant we have), the declines started during the '60s. The 'why's' are legion and go into demographic shifts in the teacher population as well as curriculum tweaking which stress 'soft' subjects. The classroom of today (student discipline, parental involvement, teacher motivation and credentials, etc.) looks nothing line the classroom of the '50s. This is one of those situations were chronology and progress don't match.

7. Amnesty: In the '80s the illegal immigrant population was in the 4-million range (give or take some, depending on whose stats you want to believe). Then amnesty happened. After that, the illegal immigration population took off because the folk all believed that if the USA granted amnesty once, it would do it again - and the big question was when. Any person who has worked as an immigration professional has heard the "when's the next amnesty?" question many times from clientele. - - - - As far as the 'can we deport them?' argument is concerned, the real answer is we won't have to, provided employers follow the law and don't hire them. It's a matter of 'supply and demand' in that if there is no 'demand' then the 'supply' will pretty much leave on its own. That's what other countries around the world have found, and the USA is not that unique. -- As far as who will fill those jobs, again 'supply and demand' rules. I can remember when many of those jobs being filled by illegals were decent-paying union jobs (especially in the meat-packing industry), and if the pay is there, the job is filled. All one has to do is watch "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel for proof that there is no job that Americans won't do, but the employer must pay a fair wage.

8. Homeland Security: Definitely a subject near and dear to my heart! The answer to #2 above ties into this. We never had many of the security problems before because they were sufficiently handled in 'olden days' by an intelligence and response capacity which was sacrificed to provide a budget surplus. Now it's catch-up time, and you can't make everything well in an instant, especially when the need is technology-based and you stopped its development and production years ago. Most businesses follow a 'risk management" philosophy of some kind, and governments are no different. When you take on more risk by not funding protection (in whatever form), sometimes the 'risk' wins. That's where we are today. We're getting better on the 'protection' side, but it does take time (and $$$$). There is no free lunch!

9. The Elected and Appointed: As I read the history books, they all seem to indicate, "Some things never change." The elected and appointed here now are really no better/different than their predecessors - and so far nothing seems to show that the successors will be any better/different. The patronage 'system' best demonstrated by the Plum Book and whose names end up in it, and the legislature which (by wink and nod) grants itself more perks and retirement than anywhere else in American society make even the most noble rhetoric during campaigns turn into "did I say that?" after the votes are counted. Elected messiahs are fiction.

Thanks for the opportunity to rant a bit....

[Guest]

Except for the Iraq war (maybe!!!) everything else be as noted regardless of who is in the White House.

There are 525 very key people to blame (congress + senate ). They are NOT fulfilling the wishes and needs of the people. Quite frankly they just sort of do as they please or not. Any relationship to the needs of the people would be purely coincidental.
Until such time as the majority of the voting population of this Country begin to stand and be counted...DEMANDING their REPRESENTATIVES....get it.....REPRESENTATIVES..... start catering to the needs if their constituents. Using my favorite term...the silent majority, not only gets all the horrors listed as the topic of this thread....the list of what they don't get is even more pathetic.
I keep asking, what is the event or series of events that need to happen to US citizens off their butts and get after their legislators.

Change? I'll give you a suggestion......the silent majority switch from permissive pacifism to passionate persuasion. Until then NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE!!!

It isn't those of us who are fortunate to live in a place like TV where we are some what insulated from the reality of the day to day....the ones to pay will be our grand children and theirs........because if you don't get change underway and you don't like what is/is not happening today....think about how much worse it is going to be for them. :dontknow:

Too many people in their comfort zone are not about to stand up and be counted because they can't be bothered...not their problem...it's not in their back yard (yet).

What kills me is everybody knows it is the silent majority yet NOTHING happens and the 525 in Washington count on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It makes me sick :barf:

BTK :edit:

[Guest]

whispers to SteveZ - good post

don't forget Medicare and Immigration, toss in Lobbyists too

[Guest]

Kahuna

You said it well...

Anyone who thinks we are doing "just fine" must have their head in the sand.

The election can't come soon enough.

I hope the country can survive 'til then.

Tony

[Guest]

I totally agree with Kahuna and Toncan! I am so sick of spin on why it isn't the admin's fault. There are pages and pages to prove that we were lied to...and still are. We never should of gone to war in Iraq, borrowed from China and sent our jobs there, cut regulations on corps, illegally spied on all our citizens, refuse to turn over public records, cut Vet hospitals budgets etc. etc. etc. This war is costing us big time -unless you are one of the very rich that have a company making a record profit from all the rest of us. I lost a nephew in Iraq and this Admin doesn't care one bit!!!! I could go on for pages. Even the Republicans are putting distance from this admin.
I won't look at this political thread anymore because I have volunteering to do to help people who are desperate because of the way this country has been led. Turn on the PBS or BBC or any news that isn't totally spin for the Republican party. Then enlist in either of our wars and tell me what a fine job Bush is doing!

[Guest]

:agree: :agree: :agree: mcelheny, Toncat and Kahuna! :bigthumbsup:

[Guest]

When I see the term "administration" the only way I can look at it is to include the Congress + the Senate + we'll even throw in the Supreme Court.
I personally don't believe any one individual in the Washington DC well established, well entrenched, paralysis system can make a difference.

We the people want change? Yes I do!!!! All the above change their priority from partisan political bickering and investigating frivolities to the needs of the people and this country.

Until then it will remain the same ol' crap......AS IT HAS BEEN FOR ANY PREVIOUS AS WELL AS CURRENT "ADMINISTRATION".

That's my $3.67 ( 2 cents adjusted for the price of gas condoned by the above defined ADMINISTRATION!!!!!)

BTK

[Guest]

Administration -Meaning from an unabridged dictionary-

The executive branch of the US government as headed by the President and in power during his or her term.

Example-This Administration led us into a war with Iraq and is ruining this country.

Try to change the meaning of words all you want, but there is a dictionary and an understanding of the word Adminstration when it is used in the news, newspapers, history books and my post.

[Guest]

My post was conditional....stated as I believe...my opinion....etc....no attempt to change anything any body else intended. I also choose not to consider the media's use of anything as a validation for anything as they too are polarized to be credible.

Whatever terms are used the system of government in Washington, DC is completely polarized hence for the most part non functional....as a result the needed goes undone....and the system allows many things that are not good for this country to happen.

I wait with baited breath for the "new administration"...to begin delivering the will of the people....and the people demanding they do so......uh-huh!!!

BTK

[Guest]

Either Bush lied or was woefully misinformed about Sadaam and Al Queda and weapons of mass destruction. But the bottom line is - it was his decision, and he bears responsibility. We've lost thousands of our troops in this inane war which never should have been started, and now our economy is going down the drain, thanks in large part to the enormous draining of our financial resources due to the war. For once, I would just like some of you Republicans stand up and take your lumps. Admit that Bush and his cronies screwed up and have made a mess of things. Trying to blame it on "the system of government" seems like a cop out to me, just my opinion. The system is not perfect, but good things can be accomplished with good people and smart decisions. What also scares me is McCain and his war rhetoric - we'll stay in there 100 years....etc. God help us if he gets elected. Our grandkids will end up fighting in Iraq, Iran, and whatever new countries he decides to invade.

[Guest]

:agree: I completely agree with Lil Dancer with one exception. I'm probably one of the most positive people you'll meet, but it's my opinion that if we continue on this course with a McCain administration our grandchildren won't be be around to fight anywhere. Let's quite tiptoeing around and hiding our heads under a desk like that will save us all from a nuclear war. I think McCain is naive in thinking that we'll be around in 100 years if this continues. One of those idiots will initiate the first launch the minute they have true capabilities. But then again, McCain was the one that walked around the marketplace in Iraq with body armor and a hundred armed guards, and tried to convince the American public that it was just like walking through one of our marketplaces on a bright sunny Sunday afternoon. That was the biggest joke of all! :joke: Well, he's there now again, let's see what photo ops he will concoct this time. Just my opinion.

[Guest]

Partisans always seem to need to establish the polarity VS the issue.

I know Bush could follow Bill Clinton's example of coming clean (no pun intended):

"I did not have sex with that woman"

Bush's equivalent:

I did not mean for this to be such a big war.

Uh-Huh!!!!! :joke:

BTK

[Guest]

One thing that I can agree with most folk - war sucks! As one who has participated rather than watched from the sidelines, i vouch that it makes for a lousy time.

Having seen firsthand and participated in the resulting destruction, I sure don't want to ever see war on this side of the oceans. So, being a selfish type, if its going to happen to humankind - and no amount of pandering, posturing or patronizing will prevent it - then better over there than here. Just count the number of wars actually going on today, though we just don't choose to notice many of them!

Believing that you can just say "Uncle," or simply packing up and leaving will make everything rosy is to not understand the mindset of the opponent(s). Sure, it would be good if a nice "why can't we be friends?" or "I'll say I'm sorry if you will quit" or other such rhetoric would end it all. It just isn't that way, and anyone wishing that was it has failed to accept a few millenia of human history.

Would it be nice if we could just pack up tomorrow and leave Iraq? Yes, it would. And then what?

At the end of WWI that's pretty much what happened, and the result was an even bigger bang 20+ years later - taking many more lives the second time around with even greater devastation. The only thing we may have learned (hopefully) is that the Neville Chamberlain tactic of "maybe it will just go away" is a fantasy.

At the end of WWII (and there were still hostilities in pockets of Europe and casualties happening after VE-Day) we stayed, and stayed, and stayed - rebuilding, protecting, teaming with, culturally melding and many other things. The result is the Europe of today - no wars among the Europeans, improved standards of living across the continent, stability, cultural acceptance (pretty much, anyway), 60 years worth!

Would Europe - democratic, stable, the states accepting of its neighbors, forming a new union (the European Community) - be what it is today if we had cut and run?

We left Vietnam and its still in the economic dark ages and fighting with its neighbors - we stayed in South Korea and it is now an economic giant, much to the chagrin of North Korea from whom the Chinese skipped away at the end of that fight.

The old line of "If we ignore History, then we are doomed to repeat it." Is that what's happening now with the cut-and-run talk, or do we now think we are so much smarter now that WWII, South Korea and Vietnam were enigmas which WE can handle now differently - with no plan, no history to back it, and no concurrent support from the opponent(s).

I don't relish the thought of having to fund or field another Stability Force as we did in Europe and South Korea, but I sure don't like the alternative of leaving something half-done which is how WWI found itself with that armistice. The downstream cost of cut-and-run is too brutal.

Perhaps Senator McCain is just being realistic (that's good) - he's been in harm's way and knows firsthand the cost. His curriculum vita has harsh entries as a result of war. I don't like hearing talk about having to stay in Iraq for many years to come, but I appreciate candor versus the "promise them anything, as long as I get the vote" line. Bitter pills may be tough to swallow, but not taking the medicine can be fatal.

Perhaps Senators Obama and Clinton are being optimistic (that's good, too) - having had the luxury of being spectators to the hell of war due to others accepting the challenge. I wish one of them had the miracle cure for this war, but if either does, why isn't that plan laid out now in explicit detail rather than waiting for another year to go by? If they have the cure, share it before more are hurt, now and in the years to come. No one would welcome it more than me.

My vote is still up-for-grabs, but it can only be gotten by honestly and substance. There's still a long time left before the election, and I'm still waiting . . . . .

There WILL be change ahead. Whoever gets the job, my prayers are with him/her. I just hope that the new administration has gotten an "A" in History, or else we're all in for a "D" in Life Science.

[Guest]

STEVEZ... :agree:
GREAT post....USN(ret)

[Guest]

Thanx for nailing it so sucinctly SteveZ.

I applaud fact based experience VS 21st opinions.

BTK :bigthumbsup:

[Guest]

STEVEZ for President - 2008! :agree:

[Guest]

Nice post SteveZ. Perhaps the candidates don't lay out a detailed plan for curing the war, simply because conditions seem to change daily. They may want to wait until they are actually in office, consult with all the pertinent experts, etc. before they lay out a strategy, based on what conditions are at that point in time. As you're well aware, lot could happen between then and now.

[Guest]

While a lot can happen between now and then, a lot more stays the same.

If the candidate's campaign is based on selling the "I have a plan" concept, but the candidate can't prepare it until post-inauguration, then the candidate is selling smoke. There's a lot of "experts" out there who can provide succinct advice on the situation there to include trend analyses and tactical/strategic forecasts - the think tanks abound with them. And nothing changes that dramatically anyway - the demographics remain a constant, the geography doesn't move, the issues-at-conflict rarely stray, and the goals of the factions are relatively simple (albeit difficult to attain). All situations have a diplomatic approach and a militaristic (usually ending with a follow-up diplomatic) approach, depending if the former is successful or not. The old "five paragraph Operations Plan" format covering all facets of an activity is universal, and the person who says "I have a plan" but can't produce it in this format is snowing everyone except those who just don't want to recognize the obvious for whatever reason(s).

Anyone can claim to have a plan, and anyone can claim to be smart enough to make one. I just have a hard time swallowing the story that any candidate becomes a genius after saying "I do solemnly swear..." and only then comes to bat with the 'plan.' After the election, the first concern is always to repay the campaign favors and get the appointments in place - that takes a few months on its own. By then, the American memory (the President's and the electorate's) seems to dramatically fade as to what was promised and what will be delivered. As I go through the list of presidents since I became aware there was such a person, they all have followed this pattern.

Campaigns should not be a tease. If the candidate has an idea on how to do something, whatever it is, then say it now, not lead the public on with a rhetorical fan dance. If the candidate has substance - show it! The candidate that doesn't is simply another snake-oil salesperson whose second job should be selling band uniforms in River City. If the candidate is afraid that putting forward a plan is giving up his/her sales strategy for winning an election, then they are demonstrating self concern and public disdain.

[Guest]

Steve Z,
Some great posts! :agree: :agree:

[Guest]

There have been some really thoughtful responses. I don't necessarily agree with each and every one, but they have all been worthy of some thought.

Personally, I have some pretty solidified thoughts on issues such as immigration, energy dependence, government spending, campaign finance, education, health care and education. It'll be pretty easy to choose a candidate (for President, at least) who agrees with me on most of those issues.

Where I'm a little less certain is on the issue of what to do about Iraq and the Middle East. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that us hanging around Iraq for 1 or 10 or 100 years is going to result in a region that is stable politically, economically and religiously. There will be a civil or religious war when we leave and that will happen whenever we leave. In fact, there may be more than one war. It could be the Shiá against the Sunni's, or the Turks against the Kurds, the Iranians and Iraqi Shiá against everyone else, or some combination of the above against Israel. If we could afford to stay there and were willing as a country to pay the price in blood and treasure, we'd have an outside chance of at least keeping the potentially warring factions apart. But we can't afford the cost to stay and we aren't willing to sacrifice more thousands of young Americans for that purpose. As a nation we want to "win and go home" and that's simply not going to happen.

What will happen if we leave? Will the various factions war with one another? Sure. Do I care? Not really. They've been killing one another off for centuries. The region has the economic development at the same level that the U.S. had when the Pilgrims were here. Militarily, they're not much better off. Without the weapons and materials we brought there, they'd still be warring with WWI guns, shooting from horseback. About all they have that we need is oil, and that's pretty concentrated in only a couple of countries in the region. I'm convinced that if we'd get off our butts as a country, we could reduce that dependence on foreign oil very, very quickly.

Do we need to keep watching what China, India and Russia do with regard to the Middle East? We sure do. But as long as we're fully tangled up in the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have very little ability to address those emerging world powers as we should.

Am I worried that al Quaeda will create training bases in Iraq if we leave? I wouldn't be any more worried if our soldiers were there or if they weren't. I'm convinced that al Quaeda IS training terrorists in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and even Pakistan. I'm equally convinced that us keeping 150,000 young men and women over there isn't slowing al Quaeda down very much. I might even argue that if the Arabs were busy killing one another, they'd be less inclined or interested in sending terrorists over here to kill us.

Keeping our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan as an occupying army is having the effect of creating a whole generation of blood enemies willing to commit jihad against America. (Please, no one try to convince me that we're really not an occupying army.) When one considers that in 20 years or so both France and Italy will be majority Muslim, and England will have a meaningful Muslim population as well, the prospect of a generation of highly-motivated jihadists who will have metasticized throughout Europe as well as the Middle East becomes more worrisome. The things that are motivating such hatred must be removed. And that's us keeping our soldiers in the Middle East.

Do I believe that getting out of Iraq will cause us to be at greater risk of terrorist attack than if we stay? I'd have to conclude, NO. I think the greater risk is that our political and military actions will foment the hatred of a worldwide generation of Muslims and that WILL increase the risk of terrorism here at home.

I guess that just writing this is beginning to help me choose which candidates will be more likely to address the issues that I think are important in a way that I think might work.

Do I expect all of you to agree with me? No. Will I be upset if you don't agree? Not at all. Each of us has to go thru the process of thinking thru the issues, the possible solutions and which people seeking our political support might best resolve those issues. What's really scary is that none of us is likely to know what the best course of action will be. It'll be our children and grandchildren who will deal with the outcome of actions taken during this generation. My guess would be that if there's another Tom Brokaw in high school somewhere in the U.S. who might write a book about our times in a few decades, chances are we won't be collectively viewed as a very great generation.

[Guest]

I'm glad you started it, too....

Agreement on any/all/most/none of the issues isn't anywhere near as necessary as having thought-provoking dialogue in a civil and open-minded manner. All too often the dialogue breaks down into snide remarks and name-calling - none of which succeed except to alienate.

I haven't met the all-knowing person yet (and it sure isn't the guy I see in the mirror!), so the opinions of others - developed through years of experienced which don't match mine - help me learn more. The more I learn, the better I understand (I hope!).

Hope there's more to come...

[Guest]

I know why you are the Kahuna. Great piece of work, breaking down the current political/military situation we find ourselves in. It was thoughtful, well researched and written so that even I could understand.

I too worry about my children and grandchildren, and what their future may hold because of the decisions made over the past few years.

Thankyou and keep up the excellent writing.

[Guest]

I am listening and learning and appreciate the dialogue. I am usually not politically vocal, but I hope to make the right choice in the coming election. Although, I do not feel that this election will change much in our world, my only hope is that we vote for the best qualified person that has ANSWERS to our many concerns that we all have. I want to hear what changes they will make, not just a gimicky slogan. I also fear for all our grandchildrens future AND the world's future. I pray to my kind, loving God for a miracle, a miracle so desperately needed, that we find the answers for world peace, respect by all for all living things, human caring and understanding, kindness, unselfishness, cival liberties, freedom, global education, health care for all, not just the priviledged, and universal love of our precious delicate earth before the world is destroyed by greed, hate, disrespect, crime, extremists, terrorists, racism, animal extinction, global warming, overfishing, deforestation, pollution, starvation, disease, wars, etc...etc.....etc....I really appreciate the educated opinions here and look forward to reading all of the posts. Sorry for the rambling.

[Guest]

Watch this and ask, who if anyone, has the guts to change the things that must be changed before we hang out the bankruptcy sign in D.C..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS2fI2p9iVs

[Guest]

Hancle704...great clip.
I am usually chiding the group about waking the silent majority. When I see something like this...David Walker the nation's top accountant...Controller General of the USA...working to get some one to listen...no to do something and he is being shushed into a corner....then what are the mere mortals like us to do????

I think your clip should be a separate thread. There are so many things out there today that are imminent risks to the futures of our children/grandchildren/great grand children....sooner or later we will need to pay attention to the future.

No wonder there are so many movies these days that show the future as some waste land far worse off than the early settlers of this great country.

What does it take?

BTK

[Guest]

I think we should send this clip to everyone we know and ask them to send it on. We should also be bombarding our congress with complaints, letting them know that we know
how badly they have screwed up..and I'm guessing it was all for political gain. It seems our national treasury is there for the rape and pillage by a select number of citizens.
We can scream all day about throwing incumbents out of office, but I want to keep my incumbent and have you throw yours out. This is so wrong. Any pol that is not fiscally conservative should be forced out. I am not endorsing killing all social programs, but I am tired of giving to a world that would rather see us dead, and funding stupid pork barrel projects.

[Guest]

Thanks- President Bush--
He didn't even mention how much we are spending on the war.
I read an article on CNN.com called "Surge or splurge in Iraq" that said we are paying billions of dollars to the insurgents or our enemy to make it look like the Surge is working. Paying for no violence...as soon as we stop paying---back to the same fighting. If you can find that article-read it. It is scary. I wish I knew how to put the web site on here. What you don't know...(our media doesn't cover the cost of this war) in terms of what it has done to this country.

[Guest]

Surge or Splurge - here's the link to the article. http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/pentagon.surge/

How can people be so stupid to think a policy like this will work.