Big Bang and the Bible

[tedquick]

Is the Big Bang theory consistent with the Bible? If not, please explain. For the non-believers – If not God, then how?

Two recent threads about prayer and “God’s knowledge” were the inspiration for this post.

[KeepingItReal]

Is the Big Bang theory consistent with the Bible? If not, please explain. For the non-believers – If not God, then how?

Two recent threads about prayer and “God’s knowledge” were the inspiration for this post.

If you are a true believer then you should know the bang theory is not consistent with the Bible.

Suggest you read the book of Genesis...


Genesis 1:1
King James Version.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Big Bang Theory - What About God? Any discussion of the Big Bang theory would be incomplete without asking the question, what about God? This is because cosmogony (the study of the origin of the universe) is an area where science and theology meet. Creation was a supernatural event. That is, it took place outside of the natural realm. This fact begs the question: is there anything else which exists outside of the natural realm? Specifically, is there a master Architect out there? We know that this universe had a beginning. Was God the "First Cause"?

[DougB]

If you are a true believer then you should know the bang theory is not consistent with the Bible.

Suggest you read the book of Genesis...


If you are a true believer in the big bang theory, then you should know Creation took place, therefore there is a creator. Therefore, God exists!

[Richard1366]

Just because we don't know what the origin of the universe was is no excuse to say that it must have been caused by some supreme being.

[B767drvr]

Just because we don't know what the origin of the universe was

If one contemplates that there are more stars in "our" universe than there are grains of sand on earth, and that if you believe in the "multiverse", our universe is but one tiny champagne bubble in a huge bottle of universes… :shrug:

[KeepingItReal]

Just because we don't know what the origin of the universe was is no excuse to say that it must have been caused by some supreme being.

True believers do know and are at peace with it even though they don't and never will know every detail...it's called faith. Others will search forever but never find the answers. Hard to understand why some struggle so hard not to believe in anything or believe in some far out bizarre explanation. :ho:

[gamby]

The Fingerprint of God tells the story

[rubicon]

Conceit drives this ever ending debate. It makes no sense to me to watch and listen to scientist make ridiculous statements concerning a subject matter as complex and immense as the universe. Scientist can't even get evolution on earth correct. Its all guessing and one up manship between scientist.

Specifically as to the "big bang theory" subscribing to its authenticity is like saying that if you loaded a large building with alphabet letters and numerals and then blew it up the result would be the formation of a gigantic encyclopedia.

Perhaps the simplest explanation is correct. Perhaps the universe has always been and will always be and that changes are natural and occurring over time?

Human beings living between the two eternities struggle to understand their existence to make sense of the why's and how's that is also a natural occurring thing

[jblum315]

The story of Genesis was an attempt by people of 2000 years ago to make sense of their world. It's a good story, very plausible.

[bkcunningham1]

Did you know it was a Catholic priest, a Jesuit priest, who first proposed the expansion of the universe theory or the hypothesis of the primeval atom which we call The Big Bang Theory? Georges Lemaitre.

..."Should a priest reject relativity because it contains no authoritative exposition on the doctrine of the Trinity? Once you realize that the Bible does not purport to be a textbook of science, the old controversy between religion and science vanishes . . . The doctrine of the Trinity is much more abstruse than anything in relativity or quantum mechanics; but, being necessary for salvation, the doctrine is stated in the Bible. If the theory of relativity had also been necessary for salvation, it would have been revealed to Saint Paul or to Moses . . . As a matter of fact neither Saint Paul nor Moses had the slightest idea of relativity"...

-Lemaitre

[karostay]

One word -evolution

[Gramps666]

Just because we don't know what the origin of the universe was is no excuse to say that it must have been caused by some supreme being.

Richard, you got that right. Just because science can't currently explain everything doesn't mean that the automatic default is some sort of supreme being.
At one time people thought the earth was flat. Which, by the way, is supported in the Bible.
At one time people thought disease was caused by evil spirits such as the devil. Even today some of my favorite Sunday morning comedians are still trying to drive the devil out of sick people.
At one time people thought species were fixed and unchanging.
Many people still believe the earth is only about 10,000 years old.

But science has come along to shine a light on these old, outdated beliefs. And I'm sure as we continue to make discoveries many other incorrect notions will fall by the wayside.

One other thought. If this universe was created by a supreme being, who created the supreme being?

[blueash]

Is a red flower prettier than a yellow one? Does your spouse love you? Answers to this sort of question would begin with I Believe that... They are questions of feelings or beliefs. They are not science questions and while a scientist might examine your neurochemical response to a photograph of your spouse that would only explain that you respond to your own belief. And we all know that the answer to "does your spouse love you" can be very different next week or next year" Faith or belief is not science. Why do people conflate them? 2 + 2 is 4 You don't ask if I believe it. The sun appears to rise in the east because the globe rotates from west to east. You don't ask if I believe that. Science is based on a foundation entirely different from religion. Science is testable and mutable. Religion is untestable and immutable. The great strength of the scientific method is its opportunity for evidence to completely reconstruct knowledge. Religion offers no mechanism for change other than reinterpretation, or "we didn't really mean that" Is the earth flat, Is the earth the center of the universe and the sun goes around it? Is slavery sanctioned by your god? Is a woman here to be dominated by her husband? Will eating a lobster send me to hell? Does the FSM touch me with his noodly appendages? When will the world end?

For those of faith, whatever their faith you believe you have answers to these things and point to one book for your evidence. Is your book a Bible, a Koran, a loose cannon, a tipitaka? You can argue all you like that your book or your religion is the right one but your certainty is not science it is faith. And faith is a wonderful thing. It gives solace and creates a community for support. And faith is a terrible thing. It creates fanatics who are more than happy to die for their god, and citizens who are certain that their faith's rules should govern everyone.

So no scientific theory needs to concern itself with whether or not it is congruent with a holy book. And please don't get all confused on the use of the word theory. Theory does not mean a stab in the dark with no evidence. Do you understand the theory of gravity? Do you understand the germ theory of disease? A scientific theory establishes a structure for understanding observable natural phenomena. A good theory not only explains what we observe but makes predictions which can be tested which would disprove its accuracy and subject it to modification. Newton's theories were terrific but on the edges, wrong and have been replaced with Einstein's relativity theories. And these are subject to testing and certainly in the future will be shown to be wrong as well. The fact that science asks to be proven wrong and thus improved is its greatest strength. So the question is the Big Bang consistent with the Bible is meaningless to a scientist and only of importance to a person who feels the need to make their religion be not wrong if one accepts the science. It becomes either find support for the Big Bang in the limited words of your holy book, or attack the science because it does not explain everything (which is of course the whole point of science in that there are always unanswered questions)

[Walter123]

I thought Gary Morse created the universe. I know he created mine.

[lamplighter]

Where does Ken Wilber's - AQAL or all quadrants all levels occurring together fit in? We look through a glass darkly.

[Polar Bear]

[B]If you are a true believer then you should know the bang theory is not consistent with the Bible...


Wow, such certainty.

I am a true believer that the Big Bang theory is consistent with the existence of God, and could also be consistent with The Bible, since The Bible is so open to interpretation.

[Polar Bear]

...One other thought. If this universe was created by a supreme being, who created the supreme being?


I love these sorts of questions. If you're a believer in the Big Bang theory (which I am), what was before the Big Bang?

[graciegirl]

Is a red flower prettier than a yellow one? Does your spouse love you? Answers to this sort of question would begin with I Believe that... They are questions of feelings or beliefs. They are not science questions and while a scientist might examine your neurochemical response to a photograph of your spouse that would only explain that you respond to your own belief. And we all know that the answer to "does your spouse love you" can be very different next week or next year" Faith or belief is not science. Why do people conflate them? 2 + 2 is 4 You don't ask if I believe it. The sun appears to rise in the east because the globe rotates from west to east. You don't ask if I believe that. Science is based on a foundation entirely different from religion. Science is testable and mutable. Religion is untestable and immutable. The great strength of the scientific method is its opportunity for evidence to completely reconstruct knowledge. Religion offers no mechanism for change other than reinterpretation, or "we didn't really mean that" Is the earth flat, Is the earth the center of the universe and the sun goes around it? Is slavery sanctioned by your god? Is a woman here to be dominated by her husband? Will eating a lobster send me to hell? Does the FSM touch me with his noodly appendages? When will the world end?

For those of faith, whatever their faith you believe you have answers to these things and point to one book for your evidence. Is your book a Bible, a Koran, a loose cannon, a tipitaka? You can argue all you like that your book or your religion is the right one but your certainty is not science it is faith. And faith is a wonderful thing. It gives solace and creates a community for support. And faith is a terrible thing. It creates fanatics who are more than happy to die for their god, and citizens who are certain that their faith's rules should govern everyone.

So no scientific theory needs to concern itself with whether or not it is congruent with a holy book. And please don't get all confused on the use of the word theory. Theory does not mean a stab in the dark with no evidence. Do you understand the theory of gravity? Do you understand the germ theory of disease? A scientific theory establishes a structure for understanding observable natural phenomena. A good theory not only explains what we observe but makes predictions which can be tested which would disprove its accuracy and subject it to modification. Newton's theories were terrific but on the edges, wrong and have been replaced with Einstein's relativity theories. And these are subject to testing and certainly in the future will be shown to be wrong as well. The fact that science asks to be proven wrong and thus improved is its greatest strength. So the question is the Big Bang consistent with the Bible is meaningless to a scientist and only of importance to a person who feels the need to make their religion be not wrong if one accepts the science. It becomes either find support for the Big Bang in the limited words of your holy book, or attack the science because it does not explain everything (which is of course the whole point of science in that there are always unanswered questions)


Well said. AND KINDLY said.

[kstew43]

One other thought. If this universe was created by a supreme being, who created the supreme being?[/QUOTE]

exactly......:agree:

....who came first the chicken or the egg.....

[Bavarian]

Did you know it was a Catholic priest, a Jesuit priest, who first proposed the expansion of the universe theory or the hypothesis of the primeval atom which we call The Big Bang Theory? Georges Lemaitre.

..."Should a priest reject relativity because it contains no authoritative exposition on the doctrine of the Trinity? Once you realize that the Bible does not purport to be a textbook of science, the old controversy between religion and science vanishes . . . The doctrine of the Trinity is much more abstruse than anything in relativity or quantum mechanics; but, being necessary for salvation, the doctrine is stated in the Bible. If the theory of relativity had also been necessary for salvation, it would have been revealed to Saint Paul or to Moses . . . As a matter of fact neither Saint Paul nor Moses had the slightest idea of relativity"...

-Lemaitre

The Big Bang Theory was developed as said by a Catholic Priest and Scientist as a way to scientifically prove Creation. The Big Bang is Creation. There was nothing and Bang the Universe was created, by God The Father. No contradictions. The Big Bang says nothing then Big blast when God said Let there be Light.

[Villages PL]

Book: "The God Gene: How Faith Is Hardwired Into Our Genes" by Dean H. Hamer

Of course this has been debated but it's interesting to note that religion has existed everywhere in the world throughout history and has taken on many different forms. So it seems to point to a need that people have within them to create something to explain the unknown. It suggests that we are the creators who created the concept of "God the creator."

[tcxr750]

Interesting insight from Ecclesiastes 3:11 "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end."

[Sophie11]

Isaiah 40:21-22 you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Proverbs 8:27
When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep,

This scripture Jesus talks of 1 day and 1 night - at the same time
Luke 17:31-34
On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

[tedquick]

Book: "The God Gene: How Faith Is Hardwired Into Our Genes" by Dean H. Hamer

Of course this has been debated but it's interesting to note that religion has existed everywhere in the world throughout history and has taken on many different forms. So it seems to point to a need that people have within them to create something to explain the unknown. It suggests that we are the creators who created the concept of "God the creator."

Or is it possible that God, the Creator, has instilled in us the need to know our Creator?

[tomwed]

I thought Gary Morse created the universe. I know he created mine.

Mine too!
He turned my life around. I will always be grateful.

[DAWN MARIE]

Or is it possible that God, the Creator, has instilled in us the need to know our Creator?


I believe this is it in a nutshell. The sad part is most are trying to fill this need with anything but the creator who created us. We need to realize that everything has a designer behind it. Everything we do now starts with a thought followed by an action. Why is creation thousands of years ago any different?

[SALYBOW]

As I studied for my Masters in Theology degree we learned that the theory posits that the universe as we know it was created from a singularity, that is. a point or region in spacetime in which gravitational forces cause matter to have an infinite density; associated with Black Holes,) This singulaity was caused by matter interacting with other matter. There was then a universe which evolved from that singularity. Does that preclude the idea that God created the universe? Not at all. God was the creator of the matter and the gravitational forces. He is the first mover." Even in the creation story in the Bible it was not explained by what process God worked each day.

God was definitely the creator of the universe.:spoken:

[chachacha]

very interesting, sallybow! and i like tedquick's remarks, also.

[graciegirl]

As I studied for my Masters in Theology degree we learned that the theory posits that the universe as we know it was created from a singularity, that is. a point or region in spacetime in which gravitational forces cause matter to have an infinite density; associated with Black Holes,) This singulaity was caused by matter interacting with other matter. There was then a universe which evolved from that singularity. Does that preclude the idea that God created the universe? Not at all. God was the creator of the matter and the gravitational forces. He is the first mover." Even in the creation story in the Bible it was not explained by what process God worked each day.

God was definitely the creator of the universe.:spoken:
I like you so much Salybow and I like all that good stuff you learned at Xavier University in Cincinnati, but most of all I like that you teach what you believe without words. Your warmth and caring attitude is genuine and makes everyone who knows you feel accepted and loved. You are smart and you have a kind heart.

[rubicon]

This is all faith based. Belief in God the Creator, the bible, etc requires faith.

In that same vein the genesis of theories espoused by scientists are also based on faith.

Inquirying minds need to know and because of that this vacuum needs to be filled and the content depends on your belief system.

I would agree that if God did not exist it would be essential to create him because the human race needs guidance.

I feel strongly both ways:shrug:

[Villages PL]

Or is it possible that God, the Creator, has instilled in us the need to know our Creator?

But that wouldn't explain all the different forms of worship from the beginning of recorded history, like sun worship etc. What good is instilling a need with no focus? We have the Jewish religion that believes Jesus was just a philosopher and the Christian religion that believes Jesus was the son of God. Did God plan it that way?

[kittygilchrist]

If man wants to know God, he comes as a seeker who does not know, but longs to.
It is God's work to reveal himself...it is beyond man's ability to force an intellectual meeting with the Almighty on a field of challenge that man chooses.

[SALYBOW]

I like you so much Salybow and I like all that good stuff you learned at Xavier University in Cincinnati, but most of all I like that you teach what you believe without words. Your warmth and caring attitude is genuine and makes everyone who knows you feel accepted and loved. You are smart and you have a kind heart.

Thanks o much Gracie. I am crazy about you also. Such a bright, caring person. I hope all is well with you.:bigbow:

[onslowe]

Some thoughtful and civil posts in this thread. I think we all agree, though, that it's really hard if not impossible to fit our ideas/arguments into a blog format.

I'd really respectfully suggest that people read "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" by Norman Grieser. It is written by a believer in God, and it does a very good job of addressing these questions surrounding the "Big Bang Theory, its history and its various permutations over the decades.

It doesn't have to convince you, just make you perhaps think about this great topic in another way - from a devout religious person's well educated view.

[Villages PL]

How many people believe that the Bible is the word of God? To those who do, where does it say anything about a singularity that exploded?

For a long time religious people ridiculed the Big Bang Theory. Now, slowly, some seek to claim it as their own, as God's creation. Talk about wanting to have it both ways.

It seems like what it boils down to, for many, is moral relativism. There's no right religion or wrong religion, it's all good as long as you express it with warmth and conviction.

Religious freedom and its moral relativism is great as long as your favorite religion is in the majority. But how would we feel if those of the Muslim faith became the majority and started to implement Sharia law? There are Christians who say our right to freedom comes from God. If that's the case, then Muslims can change that right based on their particular faith.

Just food for thought.

[dewilson58]

A good thread.

:bigbow:

[B767drvr]

How many people believe that the Bible is the word of God? To those who do, where does it say anything about a singularity that exploded?

For a long time religious people ridiculed the Big Bang Theory. Now, slowly, some seek to claim it as their own, as God's creation. Talk about wanting to have it both ways.

It seems like what it boils down to, for many, is moral relativism. There's no right religion or wrong religion, it's all good as long as you express it with warmth and conviction.

Religious freedom and its moral relativism is great as long as your favorite religion is in the majority. But how would we feel if those of the Muslim faith became the majority and started to implement Sharia law? There are Christians who say our right to freedom comes from God. If that's the case, then Muslims can change that right based on their particular faith.

Just food for thought.

Nice post VPL… definitely thought-provoking! Now take cover for incoming… :popcorn:

[rubicon]

I re-reviewed ever one of the posts on this thread. One poster spoke of moral relativism and from the manner in which many responded I can see relevance
to the conversations at hand. The primary camps have been faith and science one or the other. And those stories, lessons, theories etc are passed along from one generation to another man to man woman to woman and to say it is all true because I told you just doesn't sit right for me. and to have a scientist say that this is settled doesn't either because as time passes so too do these settled scientific theories change and evolve into something else altogether.

My position is that we will never know. I do agree and support the notion that we should look for answers but I am convinced that man is lacking in what is needed to grasp the totality of it all. This subject matter is well beyond our comprehension.

[Barryb46]

Reminds me of a story. A scientist has a meeting with God and says, "God, we don't need you anymore. We can create life ourselves. Just let me show you. First you take some dirt. God stops him and says: "Get your own dirt"

[tedquick]

But that wouldn't explain all the different forms of worship from the beginning of recorded history, like sun worship etc. What good is instilling a need with no focus? We have the Jewish religion that believes Jesus was just a philosopher and the Christian religion that believes Jesus was the son of God. Did God plan it that way?

If man wants to know God, he comes as a seeker who does not know, but longs to.
It is God's work to reveal himself...it is beyond man's ability to force an intellectual meeting with the Almighty on a field of challenge that man chooses.

While I cannot provide a definitive answer to the two questions that VPL asked, if I understand what kitty is suggesting, and that being that man has blocked his “approachability” with denial or a heart that disallows God’s entreaties, then the result will be something other than God’s intended goal.

God’s freewill gift to us is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that we can choose faith or no faith. The curse is that we can choose faith or no faith. Two or more people, each having shared identical experiences, will rarely, due to filtering through their own personal histories, end up with indistinguishable conclusions; similar, perhaps, but rarely identical. Our freewill (and what a powerful and liberating gift [except for its simultaneous curse]) is perhaps one of the most valuable gifts that God has given to mortal man, second only to His Son which delivered, to us, Grace. We can choose. We can choose right or wrong. We can choose life or death. We can choose to have faith or not to have faith. We can choose to believe or not to believe. Or can we?

I believe in God. It is comforting to know that the Triune has been forever. It is comforting to know that the Triune will be forever. While I must admit that it is a challenge for me to comprehend, before the Big Bang, that there was no time and that there was nothing but an infinite singularity, there is some comfort in knowing that there was/is “something out there” that is greater than mankind. I believe that something to be God.

I am additionally pleased that it is not up to me to judge the belief of others nor is it up to me to judge the unbelief of others. I do think it is sad that the non-believers have no source or no anchor on which to lean when their worlds are falling apart. The opposite of that is also sad; to whom do they turn when they want to thank “someone” for the extraordinary lives that they may be living: or do they think that it is all of their own doing? (Sadly that used to be me. Gladly that used to be me).

[KeepingItReal]

How many people believe that the Bible is the word of God? To those who do, where does it say anything about a singularity that exploded?

For a long time religious people ridiculed the Big Bang Theory. Now, slowly, some seek to claim it as their own, as God's creation. Talk about wanting to have it both ways.

It seems like what it boils down to, for many, is moral relativism. There's no right religion or wrong religion, it's all good as long as you express it with warmth and conviction.

Religious freedom and its moral relativism is great as long as your favorite religion is in the majority. But how would we feel if those of the Muslim faith became the majority and started to implement Sharia law? There are Christians who say our right to freedom comes from God. If that's the case, then Muslims can change that right based on their particular faith.

Just food for thought.


God did not need a bang for his creation. Either one believes God was our creator or not and there are still many things that will never be clear but that is where faith comes in. God does not owe it to us for us to understand. To seek God you must first believe that he is. If one has experienced the drawing power of God and salvation after repentance for themselves then they have their confirmation and they know for certain what they have is real.

Hebrews Chapter 11 is often referred to as the Chapter of Faith. These examples are only a few of many to help us realize that faith is necessary.

Hebrews Chapter 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[Tennisnut]

How many people believe that the Bible is the word of God? To those who do, where does it say anything about a singularity that exploded?

For a long time religious people ridiculed the Big Bang Theory. Now, slowly, some seek to claim it as their own, as God's creation. Talk about wanting to have it both ways.

It seems like what it boils down to, for many, is moral relativism. There's no right religion or wrong religion, it's all good as long as you express it with warmth and conviction.

Religious freedom and its moral relativism is great as long as your favorite religion is in the majority. But how would we feel if those of the Muslim faith became the majority and started to implement Sharia law? There are Christians who say our right to freedom comes from God. If that's the case, then Muslims can change that right based on their particular faith.

Just food for thought.


Very good post. However, I would add there is no right religion, wrong religion OR NO RELIGION. For some to use religion as a way to make sense of the world and our existence is total arrogance. Science keeps searching for answers and those answers keep evolving, however, some regions believe they are the only answer. Unfortunate!

[KayakerNC]

In 1992 the Catholic Church finally agreed that the Earth revolved around the sun.
It is good to have faith, but faith should not be used to oppose the free search for truth.

[KeepingItReal]

Very good post. However, I would add there is no right religion, wrong religion OR NO RELIGION. For some to use religion as a way to make sense of the world and our existence is total arrogance. Science keeps searching for answers and those answers keep evolving, however, some regions believe they are the only answer. Unfortunate!

Hard by any stretch to understand how believing in God our creator is arrogant. When the world is on fire it won't do any good to call a scientist...

[blueash]

... We have the Jewish religion that believes Jesus was just a philosopher ...

I am interested in the basis for that sentence. Judaism IIRC, has absolutely nothing to say about Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammad, or the great pumpkin.

[graciegirl]

Very good post. However, I would add there is no right religion, wrong religion OR NO RELIGION. For some to use religion as a way to make sense of the world and our existence is total arrogance. Science keeps searching for answers and those answers keep evolving, however, some regions believe they are the only answer. Unfortunate!


Arrogance is when a person disdains for no good reason. We are not all born with the same attitude, abilities or needs. Some by their innate personality must show themselves superior by making scathing remarks to people who in no way have personally provoked them. Or harmed anyone.

If you believe in God, do it quietly, He will do the work. If you do not believe in God, do it quietly, because you can hurt and harm people who do and will not change their minds.

If you are born with a few more IQ points than most, use them for the betterment of mankind. That does not always mean you have common sense or compassion.

Arrogance is a word to describe some that try to show themselves superior by criticizing people who are peacefully living their lives with a gentle faith to sustain them.

[Walter123]

Arrogance is when a person disdains for no good reason. We are not all born with the same attitude, abilities or needs. Some by their innate personality must show themselves superior by making scathing remarks to people who in no way have personally provoked them. Or harmed anyone.

If you believe in God, do it quietly, He will do the work. If you do not believe in God, do it quietly, because you will hurt and harm people who do and will not change their minds.

If you are born with a few more IQ points than most, use them for the betterment of mankind. That does not always mean you have common sense or compassion.

Arrogance is a word to describe some that show themselves superior by criticizing people who are peacefully living their lives with a gentle faith to sustain them.

I can only think that tennisnut meant ignorance not arrogance? The sentence doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Sophie11]

I found this on the internet which I thought was very good - Science in the Bible – Correct or Way outdated? | Shoresh David Brandon (http://shoreshdavidbrandon.org/science-in-the-bible/)

Until man can grab a cup of the sun and bring here to analyze - I have to believe we are as intelligent as the grasshopper.

[rubicon]

Here we go again. How can a person have a failure to open their hearts to God. Based on what frames of reference, another person's interpretations. Why is this other human being is more infallible than me regardless if we are speaking about faith or science? While a specific scientific theory may prove accurate to the situation at hand it doesn't mean it has relevance to the universe question. I am open to any theory but really man's knowledge is built on man and while it is all we have it has proven faulty over and over again

[Tennisnut]

Arrogance is when a person disdains for no good reason. We are not all born with the same attitude, abilities or needs. Some by their innate personality must show themselves superior by making scathing remarks to people who in no way have personally provoked them. Or harmed anyone.

If you believe in God, do it quietly, He will do the work. If you do not believe in God, do it quietly, because you can hurt and harm people who do and will not change their minds.

If you are born with a few more IQ points than most, use them for the betterment of mankind. That does not always mean you have common sense or compassion.

Arrogance is a word to describe some that try to show themselves superior by criticizing people who are peacefully living their lives with a gentle faith to sustain them.

To believe that a supreme made ourselves in his image or gave his only begotten son is, to me, arrogant or, at the least self serving. Also, religions groups have a history of trying to convert others to their religion without respecting the current religion of these people. Look at all missions by the Spanish as well as white shirts on bikes handing out pamphlets. My thoughts.

[Walter123]

I can only think that tennisnut meant ignorance not arrogance? The sentence doesn't make sense otherwise.

Oops, looks like I was wrong.:shrug:

[Tennisnut]

Oops, looks like I was wrong.:shrug:

Yes, we all have our beliefs and it is very personal one. There are hundreds of religions all trying to explain the same question.

[rubicon]

I can't be a believer, I can't be an atheist I can't be agnostic because to be any of the preceding requires proof that a supreme being is real or that a supreme being is a figment of man's imagination. I can't even be arrogant or ignorant because that also requires the same criteria. Heck we don't know if any of us really exist. It think and so I am. Or is it I think, I think and so I am ,maybe
The tests ,the arguments, the theories are all man made and all they amount to is arguing man's interpretations of man's existence an existence many conclude is exclusive to this entire universe.

[RickeyD]

Who's on first, what's on second and I don't know is on third.

[RickeyD]

I can't be a believer, I can't be an atheist I can't be agnostic because to be any of the preceding requires proof that a supreme being is real or that a supreme being is a figment of man's imagination. I can't even be arrogant or ignorant because that also requires the same criteria. Heck we don't know if any of us really exist. It think and so I am. Or is it I think, I think and so I am ,maybe

The tests ,the arguments, the theories are all man made and all they amount to is arguing man's interpretations of man's existence an existence many conclude is exclusive to this entire universe.


Atheist, Agonostic, Beliver, Non-believer...it's all BS. Nothing more than labels.

[onslowe]

Moral Relativism. One religion is as good or the same as the next. Well, I can't agree at all. Relativism is a quickly disposed of "stance" for the intellectually lazy and morally clueless amongst us. Mother Theresa is the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin. A wild eyed beheader is morally the same as a medical missionary. And so on.

Logic demands honesty.

God doesn't work by democracy, human concepts of equality, nor feel good false kumbaya emotions.

I am a stumbling, bumbling Christian who worships in the Anglo Catholic faith and Church.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Like the rest of my knuckle dragging simple ilk, I believe God doesn't lie. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." He didn't say "I am one of the Ways…."

And that's all I have to say about that.

[RickeyD]

Moral Relativism. One religion is as good or the same as the next. Well, I can't agree at all. Relativism is a quickly disposed of "stance" for the intellectually lazy and morally clueless amongst us. Mother Theresa is the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin. A wild eyed beheader is morally the same as a medical missionary. And so on.

Logic demands honesty.

God doesn't work by democracy, human concepts of equality, nor feel good false kumbaya emotions.

I am a stumbling, bumbling Christian who worships in the Anglo Catholic faith and Church.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Like the rest of my knuckle dragging simple ilk, I believe God doesn't lie. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." He didn't say "I am one of the Ways…."

And that's all I have to say about that.


What does religion have to do with morality ?

[graciegirl]

To believe that a supreme made ourselves in his image or gave his only begotten son is, to me, arrogant or, at the least self serving. Also, religions groups have a history of trying to convert others to their religion without respecting the current religion of these people. Look at all missions by the Spanish as well as white shirts on bikes handing out pamphlets. My thoughts.

The only people that have evangelized to us in the last thirty years were the Jehovah Witnesses.

Then there are those people who by their lives and their warmth and their kindness draw you to them and make you wonder what is their secret, but they don't SAY anything.

What exactly does the pink high lighted mean? I don't know of any missions by Spanish and white shirts on bikes? Never in all of my 75 years have I seen what you speak of.

[KeepingItReal]

To believe that a supreme made ourselves in his image or gave his only begotten son is, to me, arrogant or, at the least self serving. Also, religions groups have a history of trying to convert others to their religion without respecting the current religion of these people. Look at all missions by the Spanish as well as white shirts on bikes handing out pamphlets. My thoughts.

And if it turns out you are totally wrong?

[Villages PL]

We can choose to have faith or not to have faith. We can choose to believe or not to believe. Or can we?

I would say no, we can't. Choosing hasn't been my experience. I didn't choose anything and I have no idea how anyone would go about choosing.

I did choose lots of things in my life so I know how choosing works. But when it comes to faith as it is set forth in the Bible, like a prescription, I don't see it like so many others do.

I don't mind thinking and accepting the idea that there might be some higher power in the universe. But I don't know what it is and I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good.

[Villages PL]

I am interested in the basis for that sentence. Judaism IIRC, has absolutely nothing to say about Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammad, or the great pumpkin.

Yahoo search: The Jewish view of Jesus

Should I have said preacher instead of philosopher?

[Villages PL]

Moral Relativism. One religion is as good or the same as the next. Well, I can't agree at all. Relativism is a quickly disposed of "stance" for the intellectually lazy and morally clueless amongst us. Mother Theresa is the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin.

Precisely, Mother Theresa is not the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin. Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin are not religions. Wasn't I talking about religion?

Logic demands honesty.

Okay, so let's slow down and try using some honesty in your comparisons.

God doesn't work by democracy, human concepts of equality, nor feel good false kumbaya emotions.

I'm not sure I understand what that has to do with what I said.

[onslowe]

Maybe I should have written "Mother Theresa's morals are the same as Adolph Hitler's morals." Your words were "Religious freedom and its moral relativism…" You joined together a man made civil right with an odious world view and philosophy which must lead to no morality. Slow down and consider it.

There is a big difference between the Divine mandate that we love (i.e. care about) all others and the modern half baked "feeling" that each religion is as good as the next. To a believer, and indeed anyone who slows down and considers the facts that is simply not true.

I note that there is no reply to the statement of Jesus. So be it. I can't persuade anyone, but I can and will pray for you. :)

[rubicon]

Moral Relativism. One religion is as good or the same as the next. Well, I can't agree at all. Relativism is a quickly disposed of "stance" for the intellectually lazy and morally clueless amongst us. Mother Theresa is the same as Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin. A wild eyed beheader is morally the same as a medical missionary. And so on.

Logic demands honesty.

God doesn't work by democracy, human concepts of equality, nor feel good false kumbaya emotions.

I am a stumbling, bumbling Christian who worships in the Anglo Catholic faith and Church.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Like the rest of my knuckle dragging simple ilk, I believe God doesn't lie. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." He didn't say "I am one of the Ways…."

And that's all I have to say about that.

onslowe: I totally agree with your position on moral relativism because this sliding scale technique is another way of saying no matter what one does I can't be wrong. It give one an excuse. It rationalizes bad behavior . Mother Theresa in my view was an excellent example of pure love.
The manner in which you write tells me how deeply and completely you believe and how pure your love ,for God and His word. That deserve respect

[onslowe]

Thank you for your kind words, Rubicon. :)

[DAWN MARIE]

I have sat in the chair of unbelief. It's usually a prerequisite before one comes to belief as we all start out as unbelievers to some extent. I am no longer sitting there because I am now a firm believer in a Creator God who desires to have a personal relationship with his creation. I've come face to face with him and have no doubt He is real and very much alive.

For those who believe we should be quiet and say nothing I have to strongly disagree. If you have any belief at all in Christ, you know his central message was "go and tell" and was one of the last things he said before he left this earth. Many of the early church went to their death "telling" and were not ashamed to do so. Many are losing their lives today in other parts of the world for doing this same thing. We don't get to heaven on warm fuzzy feelings. It's not about doing good...it's not even about being good. It's about believing in and putting our trust in the one who did the most good for all of us.

To keep quiet and not say anything is akin to seeing a bridge washed out ahead on a dark night and not warning those approaching the danger that lies ahead. If you know an alternate route with a safe bridge that is sturdy with no danger of failing isn't it most loving to speak up and warn those approaching the washed out bridge? The physical is always an example of a spiritual truth. We are all traveling along a road with many obstacles and dangers. Just because it's in the spiritual realm doesn't make it any less dangerous. In fact it's much more dangerous than the physical because it has eternal consequences. So that's why I put my trust in the only one that loves me with a dying love who came to warn us about the danger and point to the bridge that he himself built for us that will never fall apart.

[Sophie11]

and in the end it is what you do with your faith.

We are called to use all the resources God has given us and work diligently at our callings, maximizing the return for the Master while we expectantly await His return.

I am amazed by the people who do not know Jesus Christ is the only way ):

The wheat and the tares are being separated.

[tedquick]

I would say no, we can't. Choosing hasn't been my experience. I didn't choose anything and I have no idea how anyone would go about choosing.

I did choose lots of things in my life so I know how choosing works. But when it comes to faith as it is set forth in the Bible, like a prescription, I don't see it like so many others do.

I don't mind thinking and accepting the idea that there might be some higher power in the universe. But I don't know what it is and I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good.

VPL -- don't you think that "not choosing" is a decision and therefore you have chosen?

". . . . . I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good." I don't believe that either. As a Christian, I want my behaviors to be good behaviors, not because others may say they are good, but because they are simply the right thing to do. And there have been a few times when I actually accomplished that. :) Probably not nearly often enough but fortunately God has provided all of us with the opportunity for Grace. I don't deserve it, but it is there if I believe.

[KayakerNC]

". . . . . I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good." I don't believe that either. As a Christian, I want my behaviors to be good behaviors, not because others may say they are good, but because they are simply the right thing to do. And there have been a few times when I actually accomplished that. :) Probably not nearly often enough but fortunately God has provided all of us with the opportunity for Grace. I don't deserve it, but it is there if I believe.

So, be good kids, otherwise Santa won't bring presents. :)
A great discussion on science's relationship to religious beliefs has turned to proselytizing.

[graciegirl]

I have read this thread and I have picked the people I like the most. Most of those have NOT commented on this thread but a few have shown amazing strength and patience in the face of being taunted about their beliefs.

This is all new to me. I have yet to live anywhere where people were disdained for their faith.

Part of our morality is based on trying to do good and avoiding bad. It keeps most of us law abiding. I always trust people with a moral compass more with my possessions and my feelings than I do people who look down on rule followers.

I have to think that these attacks, and that is what they are, by people who call church goers and believers in God ignorant and arrogant may be in part due to a tiny feeling somewhere that they could be wrong and they might be missing something. Or maybe they just don't care about anyone's feelings other than their own.

I don't know. But I know I feel much worse now knowing what I know about some of my fellow villagers.

The Atheists and Agnostics that I know and admire do not try to hurt or criticize people who think differently than they do.

[Walter123]

To each his own. I don't like or dislike anyone because of their religious beliefs.

[tedquick]

So, be good kids, otherwise Santa won't bring presents. :)
A great discussion on science's relationship to religious beliefs has turned to proselytizing.

Sorry you missed my point.

See "Two more Frogs a comin'"

[Patty55]

As a recovered Cafeteria Catholic I like to keep my views to myself and think the world (and this board)would be a better place if more people did the same.

I do have a real question though, not being snarky but do you all actually quote these bible passages from memory or do you look them up each time? If it's from memory, color me impressed. (I thought I was doing great remembering SOHCAHTOA.)

Isn't there a religious forum on this board?

[Bogie Shooter]

One other thought. If this universe was created by a supreme being, who created the supreme being?

exactly......:agree:

....who came first the chicken or the egg.....[/QUOTE]

Some think the rooster!:icon_wink:

[graciegirl]

As a recovered Cafeteria Catholic I like to keep my views to myself and think the world (and this board)would be a better place if more people did the same.

I do have a real question though, not being snarky but do you all actually quote these bible passages from memory or do you look them up each time? If it's from memory, color me impressed. (I thought I was doing great remembering SOHCAHTOA.)

Isn't there a religious forum on this board?

Raised a German Lutheran and we didn't study the bible so much as we were told in Saturday Catechism class about what the books were about and were expected to memorize the books names in order, old and new testament, as a test before Confirmation. I can get through first and second Samuel and go blank nowadays. We were taught it as a kind of history and we knew what the main characters and the lesser characters did and were taught that the new testament kind of had more weight than the old. Other Protestant faiths study the Bible in a different way memorizing verses and literally applying them.

I was a Catholic convert at age 18 and really was surprised to find back then that the Catholic Church didn't study the Bible, as much as many Protestants I knew did, and Catholics are not taught to interpret the bible literally which agreed what I was taught as a child in Sunday School and in Catechism Class.

I get more Jeopardy questions on the Bible right than my "cradle Catholic" husband. But I am far from a scholar. To me it takes the wisdom of Solomon to figure it out.

[onslowe]

Hoping that people would keep their views about religion to themselves is a tacit way of saying religion should not be spoken of in this forum. Why? People all over this board express their views on all sorts of things. Why imply that people should not speak of religion? I myself believe it's symptomatic of something akin to feeling edgy or maybe even guilty when the topic comes up. That's my belief, and maybe it's not anyone else's and that's okay on this forum.

I look at TOTV like a refrigerator. Open the door, take what you want and leave all the rest. If one sees a thread involving the Bible avoid it if it causes uneasiness to you.

God, to a believer, is not "matter." Chickens are, roosters are, eggs are, and the universe is. God is, was always and before time and worlds and always will be, um, forgive me, Supernatural.

[kittygilchrist]

Raised a German Lutheran and we didn't study the bible so much as we were told in Saturday Catechism class about what the books were about and were expected to memorize the books names in order, old and new testament, as a test before Confirmation. I can get through first and second Deuteronomy and go blank nowadays. We were taught it as a kind of history and we knew what the main characters and the lesser characters did and were taught that the new testament kind of had more weight than the old. Other Protestant faiths study the Bible in a different way memorizing verses and literally applying them.

I was a Catholic convert at age 18 and really was surprised to find back then that the Catholic Church didn't study the Bible, as much as many Protestants I knew did, and Catholics are not taught to interpret the bible literally which agreed what I was taught as a child in Sunday School and in Catechism Class.

I get more Jeopardy questions on the Bible right than my "cradle Catholic" husband. But I am far from a scholar. To me it takes the wisdom of Solomon to figure it out.

I love the way Jews celebrate the Bible. Each synagogue has a scroll with the Torah..first 5 books..that is taken from its elaborate cabinet and paraded around the room on certain days, where congregants reverently touch it with their book, or kiss a scarf and touch the Torah with it.

The Torah has only one Deuteronomy... ;-)

[Tennisnut]

To believe that a supreme made ourselves in his image or gave his only begotten son is, to me, arrogant or, at the least self serving. Also, religions groups have a history of trying to convert others to their religion without respecting the current religion of these people. Look at all missions by the Spanish as well as white shirts on bikes handing out pamphlets. My thoughts.

The only people that have evangelized to us in the last thirty years were the Jehovah Witnesses.

Then there are those people who by their lives and their warmth and their kindness draw you to them and make you wonder what is their secret, but they don't SAY anything.

What exactly does the pink high lighted mean? I don't know of any missions by Spanish and white shirts on bikes? Never in all of my 75 years have I seen what you speak of.

Lots of Spanish missions in California, the southwest and Mexico. Also, our Jehovah witnesses ride bikes and wear wear white shirts. They don't do that where you are from?

[Tennisnut]

I would say no, we can't. Choosing hasn't been my experience. I didn't choose anything and I have no idea how anyone would go about choosing.

I did choose lots of things in my life so I know how choosing works. But when it comes to faith as it is set forth in the Bible, like a prescription, I don't see it like so many others do.

I don't mind thinking and accepting the idea that there might be some higher power in the universe. But I don't know what it is and I doubt it's going to reward me with eternal life if I'm good.

I believe one can be a good person without believing in God, Allah, Jesus , Mohammed, etc.

[B767drvr]

I believe one can be a good person without believing in God, Allah, Jesus , Mohammed, etc.

AMEN! <----- sorry, couldn't resist! :duck:

[Villages PL]

Maybe I should have written "Mother Theresa's morals are the same as Adolph Hitler's morals." Your words were "Religious freedom and its moral relativism…" You joined together a man made civil right with an odious world view and philosophy which must lead to no morality. Slow down and consider it.

Basically, it's about everyone being free to believe whatever they want to believe, and that, in my opinion, is as it should be. The moral relativism comes in when believers in one religion, like Christianity, behave as though all other religions are beyond reproach. In other words, whatever you choose to believe, within the framework of religion, is fine. Religion is religion, it's all relative, so have respect for all religions even if it's contrary to your religion.

There is a big difference between the Divine mandate that we love (i.e. care about) all others and the modern half baked "feeling" that each religion is as good as the next. To a believer, and indeed anyone who slows down and considers the facts that is simply not true.

Yes, we agree! Not all religions are equal, or "as good as the next."

I note that there is no reply to the statement of Jesus. So be it. I can't persuade anyone, but I can and will pray for you. :)

Sorry, I don't remember what that statement was. I'll go back and read it.

[tedquick]

I believe one can be a good person without believing in God, Allah, Jesus , Mohammed, etc.

I know a good number of people who are either agnostic or atheists and they are very fine people, so I agree with you in total. Some of them I'd rather be around than some who profess to be Christians. Fortunately I do not have to judge any of these people, except to decide with whom I want to spend my time.

[graciegirl]

Look at it this way. It all depends whose team you're on.
We seem to choose to run in flocks and gather with those we have something in common with.

I hope there is a God.

And if he isn't. He isn't. But if he is?

I hope someone will leave the back door open just a crack.

[Villages PL]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Like the rest of my knuckle dragging simple ilk, I believe God doesn't lie. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." He didn't say "I am one of the Ways…."

Okay, very good! I have no problem with that, except for the part about "knuckle dragging simple ilk". That's not nice. :icon_wink:

[Sophie11]

We all have a choice to believe or not.
The Bible clearly states one must believe in Jesus Christ to get to heaven.
There are a lot of very nice people everywhere I go but will Jesus say that he knew them when they go on?
Remember e=MC2 - energy never dies it only changes - 1 Corinthians 15:51 - 15:52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

[quirky3]

I know a good number of people who are either agnostic or atheists and they are very fine people, so I agree with you in total. Some of them I'd rather be around than some who profess to be Christians. Fortunately I do not have to judge any of these people, except to decide with whom I want to spend my time.

"Amen" to that!!!

[rubicon]

Essentially this thread was about creation the scientific big bang theory or the Bible's version of creation. It predictably morphed into a great religious debate....and a good one at that. Essentially my occupation was about investigating people, events, etc testing ,probing , comparing......... Logical progressions evolve and when that chain is broken it signals that something is wrong the data does not compute go back look again

The universe is too vast too complex for my little mind and my instincts warn me not to be moved by emotion/feeling because they cannot be trusted.

Holy men will tell you that God created man with free will but then tell you if you do not believe their way you are wrong...but logic tells me that if I have free will whatever I chose to do is best for me. Should I be denied an alleged paradise because I exercised a right He has freely bestowed me????????????I don't know?

Scientist test their hypothesis and because of error, conceit wrongful assumption piece together a story that in a few years falls apart. And those theories which do hold up only accomplish a local validation.

Validation arising from the religious community or the scientific community to posit a theory for the creation of this magnificent thing we call the universe or to the concept of God is based on faith. Creation is a mystery and it will remain a mystery. Perhaps we should signal ET to stop by and give us his explanation:D

[Villages PL]

I have sat in the chair of unbelief. It's usually a prerequisite before one comes to belief as we all start out as unbelievers to some extent.

I find that statement interesting. At what age were you, "in the chair of unbelief?" What happened that caused you to believe? Did you have religious training as a child? I just wonder how this transformation takes place because I have never known anyone, friends or family, to change one way or the other.

For those who believe we should be quiet and say nothing I have to strongly disagree. If you have any belief at all in Christ, you know his central message was "go and tell" and was one of the last things he said before he left this earth. Many of the early church went to their death "telling" and were not ashamed to do so. Many are losing their lives today in other parts of the world for doing this same thing. We don't get to heaven on warm fuzzy feelings. It's not about doing good...it's not even about being good. It's about believing in and putting our trust in the one who did the most good for all of us.

To keep quiet and not say anything is akin to seeing a bridge washed out ahead on a dark night and not warning those approaching the danger that lies ahead. If you know an alternate route with a safe bridge that is sturdy with no danger of failing isn't it most loving to speak up and warn those approaching the washed out bridge? The physical is always an example of a spiritual truth. We are all traveling along a road with many obstacles and dangers. Just because it's in the spiritual realm doesn't make it any less dangerous. In fact it's much more dangerous than the physical because it has eternal consequences. So that's why I put my trust in the only one that loves me with a dying love who came to warn us about the danger and point to the bridge that he himself built for us that will never fall apart.

Keeping quiet about the dangers ahead: In your opinion, does that also apply to food and health? There was a recent article (09-13-14) in the Daily Sun lifestyle section. The heading was: "Staying fit for Him". The subheading was: "Church groups focus on better health, overall wellness".

In this article the Rev. Marilyn Anell, director of pastoral care at New Covenant United Methodist Church, said the following: "Our body is a temple for God and it's up to us to keep it healthy by exercising and eating the right food."

My comment: Many people seem to think that lifestyle choices, like what we eat, are to be kept private. Just as with religion, they think food choices etc. should not be talked about. If you suggest a healthy lifestyle they will often say, "I'm tired of people telling me how I should eat."

If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle? Is it too personal?

[B767drvr]

Keeping quiet about the dangers ahead: In your opinion, does that also apply to food and health? There was a recent article (09-13-14) in the Daily Sun lifestyle section. The heading was: "Staying fit for Him". The subheading was: "Church groups focus on better health, overall wellness".

In this article the Rev. Marilyn Anell, director of pastoral care at New Covenant United Methodist Church, said the following: "Our body is a temple for God and it's up to us to keep it healthy by exercising and eating the right food."

My comment: Many people seem to think that lifestyle choices, like what we eat, are to be kept private. Just as with religion, they think food choices etc. should not be talked about. If you suggest a healthy lifestyle they will often say, "I'm tired of people telling me how I should eat."

If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle? Is it too personal?

:popcorn: :duck:

[Gramps666]

We all have a choice to believe or not.
The Bible clearly states one must believe in Jesus Christ to get to heaven.
There are a lot of very nice people everywhere I go but will Jesus say that he knew them when they go on?
Remember e=MC2 - energy never dies it only changes - 1 Corinthians 15:51 - 15:52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So God (Jesus) hides from us and then shows His love by condemning us to eternal misery if we happen to question his existence? Does that sound like LOVE to you? Who here would do that to their own child?

In Matthew 16:28 we are told that some individuals who were living 2000 years ago will still be alive when the Son of man returns. Where is He? Or is someone besides Mel Brooks over 2000 years old?

[graciegirl]

I find that statement interesting. At what age were you, "in the chair of unbelief?" What happened that caused you to believe? Did you have religious training as a child? I just wonder how this transformation takes place because I have never known anyone, friends or family, to change one way or the other.



Keeping quiet about the dangers ahead: In your opinion, does that also apply to food and health? There was a recent article (09-13-14) in the Daily Sun lifestyle section. The heading was: "Staying fit for Him". The subheading was: "Church groups focus on better health, overall wellness".

In this article the Rev. Marilyn Anell, director of pastoral care at New Covenant United Methodist Church, said the following: "Our body is a temple for God and it's up to us to keep it healthy by exercising and eating the right food."

My comment: Many people seem to think that lifestyle choices, like what we eat, are to be kept private. Just as with religion, they think food choices etc. should not be talked about. If you suggest a healthy lifestyle they will often say, "I'm tired of people telling me how I should eat."

If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle? Is it too personal?

I thought sooner or later we would get to this issue.

[CFrance]

I find that statement interesting. At what age were you, "in the chair of unbelief?" What happened that caused you to believe? Did you have religious training as a child? I just wonder how this transformation takes place because I have never known anyone, friends or family, to change one way or the other.



Keeping quiet about the dangers ahead: In your opinion, does that also apply to food and health? There was a recent article (09-13-14) in the Daily Sun lifestyle section. The heading was: "Staying fit for Him". The subheading was: "Church groups focus on better health, overall wellness".

In this article the Rev. Marilyn Anell, director of pastoral care at New Covenant United Methodist Church, said the following: "Our body is a temple for God and it's up to us to keep it healthy by exercising and eating the right food."

My comment: Many people seem to think that lifestyle choices, like what we eat, are to be kept private. Just as with religion, they think food choices etc. should not be talked about. If you suggest a healthy lifestyle they will often say, "I'm tired of people telling me how I should eat."

If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle? Is it too personal?

Are you saying that you don't think people change their beliefs, either toward or away from faith, or just that you don't know any that have and so therefore you don't know what caused it? I know many people who have changed their convictions. Some have said why; others have not. It's a private matter and none of my business unless they want to discuss it.

And I don't think people want to keep their lifestyle choices private so much as they don't want other people constantly lecturing them and shoving their own lifestyle choices down their throats. And so they keep those choices private and turn a deaf ear to the lecturer. Every single darn thing in life does not have to be about food.

[Patty55]

Keeping quiet about the dangers ahead: In your opinion, does that also apply to food and health? There was a recent article (09-13-14) in the Daily Sun lifestyle section. The heading was: "Staying fit for Him". The subheading was: "Church groups focus on better health, overall wellness".

In this article the Rev. Marilyn Anell, director of pastoral care at New Covenant United Methodist Church, said the following: "Our body is a temple for God and it's up to us to keep it healthy by exercising and eating the right food."

My comment: Many people seem to think that lifestyle choices, like what we eat, are to be kept private. Just as with religion, they think food choices etc. should not be talked about. If you suggest a healthy lifestyle they will often say, "I'm tired of people telling me how I should eat."

If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle? Is it too personal?

ITA, I never eat farm raised fish, but I keep it to myself to avoid being mocked.

YOU BE YOU.

[tcxr750]

I'll drink to that!

[DAWN MARIE]

Are you saying that you don't think people change their beliefs, either toward or away from faith, or just that you don't know any that have and so therefore you don't know what caused it? I know many people who have changed their convictions. Some have said why; others have not. It's a private matter and none of my business unless they want to discuss it.

And I don't think people want to keep their lifestyle choices private so much as they don't want other people constantly lecturing them and shoving their own lifestyle choices down their throats. And so they keep those choices private and turn a deaf ear to the lecturer. Every single darn thing in life does not have to be about food.

Exactly. We should never try to force feed anyone who isn't interested. It's not going to do a darn bit of good anyway so why bother?

As far as change who isn't excited when they make some sort of a lifestyle change whether it be to quit smoking, drinking, lose weight, join a gym, start running, etc? How much more so when you finally come to the realization that God has chosen you from the beginning of eternity? I have yet to see someone come face to face with their sin and understanding of who they are and who God is and keep quiet. We see example after example of those running to town to tell others what Jesus did for them both in Scripture and in our world today. Whether it be that he healedl them physically or spiritually. The proper response is to be elated and want to share with others. I never understood the whole "keep it to yourself" mentality. I guess there are times to speak and not to speak but generally when the opportunity arises we are supposed to share with others what God has done for us and how he's changed our lives for eternity.

When we lose 20, 30, 40 or 100 lbs or quit smoking after years of doing so, I don't think it's normative for people to not tell others about it. It's encouraging to help others who are looking for ways to get out of the situations they are in after we found a way out ourselves. Is it not? How much more so when we realize the Good News and Hope for our future and understand that this is not all there is? There is much more to look forward to as God has planned a spectacular future for us that eyes have not seen nor ears heard.

I believe in the creation account of the bible and have no problem with it after studying it for years. But at the same time have no problem with God using a "big bang." If he spoke it into existence as I read the account that he did, I can almost hear the boom of his voice as he started the creative process.

[CFrance]

[/B][/COLOR]

I thought sooner or later we would get to this issue.



...

[dbussone]

...

Well that just about says it all. Woo Hoo! Great cartoon. Time to close this thread?

[rubicon]

This is one of those rare threads that has some substance and finds the poster actual exercise circumspection re-thinking his/her position on such an important matter. Posters were genuine, polite, thought provoking, sincere

William James Philosopher/Psychologist writes "Any attempt to demonstrate by an intellectual process to the deliver the truth to God 's existence is impossible. Science establishes no beliefs it only destroys old ones.

The gods we stand by are the gods we need and use, the gods whose demands on us are reinforcements of our demands on ourselves and one another. Most require a more personal God

The role of religion, is not its consideration of logic but the role it has played in that mysterious entity known as human nature which is itself outside the realm of reason.

I remain neutral. I remain a bystander"

Like I said I don't know?


PS I hope we have many more substantive discussions like this one

[mrdarcy]

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...BOOM! Mystery of Big Bang solved.

[tucson]

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...BOOM! Mystery of Big Bang solved.

Woo Hoo! Amen, let us keep it simple, God spoke it (the world) into existence. :-)

[quirky3]

This is one of those rare threads that has some substance and finds the poster actual exercise circumspection re-thinking his/her position on such an important matter. Posters were genuine, polite, thought provoking, sincere

William James Philosopher/Psychologist writes "Any attempt to demonstrate by an intellectual process to the deliver the truth to God 's existence is impossible. Science establishes no beliefs it only destroys old ones.

The gods we stand by are the gods we need and use, the gods whose demands on us are reinforcements of our demands on ourselves and one another. Most require a more personal God

The role of religion, is not its consideration of logic but the role it has played in that mysterious entity known as human nature which is itself outside the realm of reason.

I remain neutral. I remain a bystander"

Like I said I don't know?


PS I hope we have many more substantive discussions like this one

I agree! VPL posed a sincere question - "If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle?" and so far I have not seen any sincere responses. I have seen attacking the poster and dismissing the topic without response. Instead, I'd like to see people respect and respond to the question!

[graciegirl]

Clearly it means to live a pure life in the spiritual sense.

[Walter123]

Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God - CNET (http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0)

Just food for thought.

[Walter123]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Not_Dead_(film)

More food for thought.

[graciegirl]

I would guess to most people in most religions the quote "Make your body a temple of the Holy Spiritl" generally has connotations relating to the sins of the flesh and the sins against the commandment; Thou shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

The interpretation as to what different Christian faith's consider defiling your body are usually sexual in nature.There are some that say that suicide is a sin against your own body.

Staying alive is what most humans have faced in the world before this last 100 years. Staying healthy was a perk if you had the means to persue it . Now staying healthy is a choice we can make.

I think of the quote as more spiritual than physical.

It comes directly from St. Paul's letter to Christians in Corinth about Prostitutes.

But I would guess that VPL would tie it into eating a pure, plant based diet. Just a guess.

[tucson]

Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God - CNET (http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0)

Just food for thought.

Lord, I pray for him that You will make yourself real to him! Thank you Lord !

[Walter123]

Lord, I pray for him that You will make yourself real to him! Thank you Lord !

Yes, that will definitely change Stephen Hawking's mind, if God would make himself real to him.

[rubicon]

I agree! VPL posed a sincere question - "If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle?" and so far I have not seen any sincere responses. I have seen attacking the poster and dismissing the topic without response. Instead, I'd like to see people respect and respond to the question!

Hi quirky: Combinations an permutations of genes,environment, etc explain the vastness of difference in people physically and philosophically . It is indeed a wonderment to behold this uniqueness and adds to the excitement of being alive and interacting with one another.

If I may be permitted let me offer an alternative explanation. Take for instance the good question you pose concerning the body as a temple for God and your interpretation of it being a need for a healthier lifestyle and one not being promoted by the health board. Others, take a completely different view of the body being temple of God to mean that we should strive to be free from sin, hate, jealousy and remain in a constant state of purity in order to receive God, allow him to live within us and in order to receive his blessings and gifts. Both thoughts are right for those who share "the body being the temple"for God and both share a manner in which to preserve this Godly goal

Again interpretation/opinions vary but I found all posters to be sincere in their comments; albeit some poster may find fault with the manner of presentation of other posters and some offended because the poster disagreed. However disagreement does not mean disloyalty, disrespect nor insincerity because the purpose of the thread was open debate on a question every human being has asked since the beginning of time.

We need more substantive questions in every aspect of living playing, etc like this one and the best manner in which to conduct and to continue such worthy discussion is worth civility objectivity and being non-judgmental

I have enjoyed and often agreed on many of your comments. You are a good human being and engaging.


Personal Best Regards:

[quirky3]

Thanks Mr. Rubicon! "Back at ya!" Hoping to see other genuine responses with substance to them!

[kittygilchrist]

I agree! VPL posed a sincere question - "If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle?" and so far I have not seen any sincere responses. I have seen attacking the poster and dismissing the topic without response. Instead, I'd like to see people respect and respond to the question!


Quirky and VPL....the scripture in question, 1 corinthians 6, is quoted in context below. It seems crystal clear that the instruction to believers is this...your body is joined to Christ and thus, your flesh should not also be joined sexually with prostitutes.

15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

[Villages PL]

Are you saying that you don't think people change their beliefs, either toward or away from faith, or just that you don't know any that have and so therefore you don't know what caused it? I know many people who have changed their convictions. Some have said why; others have not. It's a private matter and none of my business unless they want to discuss it.

It has been suggested more than once on TOTV that it's possible to become faithful. I'm not sure I know the right way to say it because I don't remember the exact words. It was said that there's a certain way to go about it but not with intellect. You have to be open to it in some way. So I think if people are suggesting that it's possible, I would like to know how it's done.

And I don't think people want to keep their lifestyle choices private so much as they don't want other people constantly lecturing them and shoving their own lifestyle choices down their throats.

I believe someone said on one of the religious threads, "If you don't like the topic of religion, you don't have to read it. You can just pass it up." If you don't read something it can't be shoved down your throat. But it seems like there's more to it than that. They actually want to join in and trash the topic. In other words, if they don't like the subject of health, they don't want anyone else to have it either. So they try to destroy the thread and/or get it shut down. Why can't they just pass it by? Are you suggesting that they can't help themselves?


And so they keep those choices private and turn a deaf ear to the lecturer. Every single darn thing in life does not have to be about food.

The lecturer? Do you think this thread is lecturing about religion? And so what if it is, you don't have to be here if you don't want to. I wouldn't mind if there would be a new thread on religion every day. I wouldn't mind if they started a separate board for religion, and I'm not a religious person. In no way would I ever accuse them of forcing religion down my throat. If I were to lose interest in it, I could just stop reading. Why don't you do the same with whatever displeases you?

[Villages PL]

I would guess to most people in most religions the quote "Make your body a temple of the Holy Spiritl" generally has connotations relating to the sins of the flesh and the sins against the commandment; Thou shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

The interpretation as to what different Christian faith's consider defiling your body are usually sexual in nature.There are some that say that suicide is a sin against your own body.

Staying alive is what most humans have faced in the world before this last 100 years. Staying healthy was a perk if you had the means to persue it . Now staying healthy is a choice we can make.

I think of the quote as more spiritual than physical.

It comes directly from St. Paul's letter to Christians in Corinth about Prostitutes.

But I would guess that VPL would tie it into eating a pure, plant based diet. Just a guess.

Yes, for me it's a pure plant based vegan diet, for various reasons. But I'm not against someone being a vegetarian or even including some lean meat. There are vegetarians who eat some fish, they are called pescetarians. These different ways of eating can be done well or poorly, and I recommend doing them in the best possible way with the least amount of processed junk. It's up to the individual, I can't force anyone to do anything.

[kittygilchrist]

Re the possibility of acquiring faith, two verses come to mind:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the Word of God.
And
God chose the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.
The great commission as it is called was Jesus' instruction to go and tell what we have received so that others may hear and believe. And now we have new testament Bibles and electronic media access by which we may also hear the truth...blessings to all who read this.
Kitty

[Villages PL]

Yes, that will definitely change Stephen Hawking's mind, if God would make himself real to him.


:boom: (Thunder & lightning!!)

[Villages PL]

I agree! VPL posed a sincere question - "If our body is a temple for God, how come I don't recall any religious people on the health board promoting a healthier lifestyle?" and so far I have not seen any sincere responses. I have seen attacking the poster and dismissing the topic without response. Instead, I'd like to see people respect and respond to the question!

Thanks, quirky, your reply is much appreciated.

My explanation: I think it's too difficult for most people. And there are some who think the temple concept it's limited to the spiritual realm. I would disagree with that.

What do religious people often say when a baby is born? "It's a gift from God." I think that's well established in religious circles - life is a gift from God. So, how would one show their appreciation to God for such a wonderful gift? By trashing it or by taking care of it?

[rubicon]

If you don't like the subject of health........... If you don't like the subject of religion don't read it , pass it up..........but don't trash it because you do not want anyone else to read it................................. I agree if the only intent is to abruptly end the conversation.

One of the problems we often find with subjects such the above-mentioned is that both proponent and opponent feel strongly about their subject matter. So if a poster is on a roll to pitching a point s/he feels is a panacea then s/he can be quickly taken aback when another poster posit an entire different point of view and especially one that is direct competition to the original poster's revelation. I believe this reaction counter reaction is common place between scientist for many reasons among them the heavy investment made in such projects, ego, competition.......................

Likewise with religion where the heavy investment is emotional because of deep seated feeling and the energy needed to complete this process of pure love and commitment.

I suspect that is why some people stay away from the subjects of religion and politics.

In my case I stay away from the subject of cooking because I get very emotional about how some food should be prepared and there is only one way to do it...its my way or the highway :pepper2:

[quirky3]

Exactly! If you don't want to read about a topic, don't! But don't trash others and their views - that's just hurtful.

[KeepingItReal]

Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God - CNET (http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0)

Just food for thought.


Better food for thought:
Ever wonder how they knew there would be people like Hawkins and warned us against them.


Psalms 14:1

King James Version of Psalms 14:1.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

[Walter123]

Better food for thought:
Ever wonder how they knew there would be people like Hawkins and warned us against them.


Psalms 14:1

King James Version of Psalms 14:1.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



Well then there you go. THEY were right. They wouldn't want someone going around popping their bubble.

[KeepingItReal]

Well then there you go. THEY were right. They wouldn't want someone going around popping their bubble.

The "they" referred to was King David about 3,000 years ago, doubtful he was worrying about his bubble...

[Patty55]

Better food for thought:
Ever wonder how they knew there would be people like Hawkins and warned us against them.


Psalms 14:1

King James Version of Psalms 14:1.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



OMG, I think this is the first time I have ever heard Hawking described as a "FOOL".

[CFrance]

It has been suggested more than once on TOTV that it's possible to become faithful. I'm not sure I know the right way to say it because I don't remember the exact words. It was said that there's a certain way to go about it but not with intellect. You have to be open to it in some way. So I think if people are suggesting that it's possible, I would like to know how it's done.

It has been done without someone being open to it. Take a look at Saul, for one. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9



I believe someone said on one of the religious threads, "If you don't like the topic of religion, you don't have to read it. You can just pass it up." If you don't read something it can't be shoved down your throat. But it seems like there's more to it than that. They actually want to join in and trash the topic. In other words, if they don't like the subject of health, they don't want anyone else to have it either. So they try to destroy the thread and/or get it shut down. Why can't they just pass it by? Are you suggesting that they can't help themselves?

I came on this thread to read about religion, not about FOOD or to receive another lecture about how to eat. Sure enough... another lecture about FOOD. I refuse to not read a thread because it might go off topic, esp. into one I'm tired of hearing about. I have every right to object to that.




The lecturer? Do you think this thread is lecturing about religion? And so what if it is, you don't have to be here if you don't want to. I wouldn't mind if there would be a new thread on religion every day. I wouldn't mind if they started a separate board for religion, and I'm not a religious person. In no way would I ever accuse them of forcing religion down my throat. If I were to lose interest in it, I could just stop reading. Why don't you do the same with whatever displeases you?


No, this is a debate about religion. Not food and how to eat! The body being a temple, in religious sense, has nothing to do with what to eat.


Please stop twisting subjects people are posting about out of context in order to insert your favorite subject into every thread.

[onslowe]

Excellent post, CF France. Truthful and precise. :)

[dbussone]

Better food for thought:
Ever wonder how they knew there would be people like Hawkins and warned us against them.


Psalms 14:1

King James Version of Psalms 14:1.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.




Not better. The Best food for thought.

[quirky3]

Better food for thought:
Ever wonder how they knew there would be people like Hawkins and warned us against them.

Fyi, Stephen Hawking is a lifetime member if the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, a scientific academy of the Vatican.

Here is a quote from the then-Pope (Pope Benedict XVI) in November 2012, regarding the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

"Dialogue and cooperation between faith and science are urgently needed for building a culture that respects people and the planet...Without faith and science informing each other "the great questions of humanity leave the domain of reason and truth, and are abandoned to the irrational, to myth, or to indifference, with great damage to humanity itself, to world peace and to our ultimate destiny."

[dbussone]

Please don't highlight in yellow. I (and I'm sure others) cannot read it. Thanks.

[Polar Bear]

If you don't like the subject of health........... If you don't like the subject of religion don't read it...


I basically agree with this principle. The only problem with the if-you-don't-like-the-topic-then-don't-read-it approach is that some posters will try to turn any topic into a discussion of their pet topic.

[KayakerNC]

No, this is a debate about religion. Not food and how to eat! The body being a temple, in religious sense, has nothing to do with what to eat.


Please stop twisting subjects people are posting about out of context in order to insert your favorite subject into every thread.

:agree: Thanks for saying it.

[graciegirl]

I basically agree with this principle. The only problem with the if-you-don't-like-the-topic-then-don't-read-it approach is that some posters will try to turn any topic into a discussion of their pet topic.


OHHHH yes.

[KeepingItReal]

Fyi, Stephen Hawking is a lifetime member if the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, a scientific academy of the Vatican.

Here is a quote from the then-Pope (Pope Benedict XVI) in November 2012, regarding the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

"Dialogue and cooperation between faith and science are urgently needed for building a culture that respects people and the planet...Without faith and science informing each other "the great questions of humanity leave the domain of reason and truth, and are abandoned to the irrational, to myth, or to indifference, with great damage to humanity itself, to world peace and to our ultimate destiny."



If you are saying that the Bible is not true and any pope would agree with Hawkins that there is no God then things are worse than previously thought. I do not believe any denomination should be dabbling in such things, science cannot ever explain or replace required faith to find and serve God. So many have wavered on doctrine trying to adjust to current situations but God has not and does not change. The pope then and now are just mortal men and have the same limitations and problems as any other man. They live and die just like the rest. I am not Catholic and will take my personal experience and the written word of King David, King Solomon, Moses, and the apostles inspired of God. No one needs another to intercede with God for them. We pray directly to God and we receive our answers the same way. God called preachers to preach the gospel to the lost and when they are convicted of the sin of unbelief it is between them and God from that point. Others can pray for them but they have to find him on their own.

Hawkins can believe whatever he wants as I cannot and would not try to force anything I believe upon anyone but I will explain why I believe as I do. I will not sit by and let his opinion be perceived as fact at least not for me.

Hawkins has made an ill informed statement which he cannot prove that basically nullifies anyones belief in God and this was wrong. He may believe what he says but he has no proof and has no right to say this. He can say he believes it all he wants. It is hard to understand why the Vatican would associate with anyone so vile they would make such a statement.

Hawkins should have better spent his time trying to find a cure for his own ailment which would have benefitted many others. This would have required real research that could have been proven and carried a risk of failure rather than indulging in just his speculations which cannot be proven.

Psalms 14:1
King James Version of Psalms 14:1.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

[Barefoot]

Please stop twisting subjects people are posting about out of context in order to insert your favorite subject into every thread.
Excellent post, CF France. Truthful and precise. :)

I basically agree with this principle. The only problem with the if-you-don't-like-the-topic-then-don't-read-it approach is that some posters will try to turn any topic into a discussion of their pet topic.

I agree with the "if you don't like the topic, then don't read it" approach.
I also agree with PB's comment that this approach only works if posters do not deliberately change the topic of the thread.

:agree: Thanks for saying it.

[kittygilchrist]

While I cannot provide a definitive answer to the two questions that VPL asked, if I understand what kitty is suggesting, and that being that man has blocked his “approachability” with denial or a heart that disallows God’s entreaties, then the result will be something other than God’s intended goal.

God’s freewill gift to us is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that we can choose faith or no faith. The curse is that we can choose faith or no faith. Two or more people, each having shared identical experiences, will rarely, due to filtering through their own personal histories, end up with indistinguishable conclusions; similar, perhaps, but rarely identical. Our freewill (and what a powerful and liberating gift [except for its simultaneous curse]) is perhaps one of the most valuable gifts that God has given to mortal man, second only to His Son which delivered, to us, Grace. We can choose. We can choose right or wrong. We can choose life or death. We can choose to have faith or not to have faith. We can choose to believe or not to believe. Or can we?

I believe in God. It is comforting to know that the Triune has been forever. It is comforting to know that the Triune will be forever. While I must admit that it is a challenge for me to comprehend, before the Big Bang, that there was no time and that there was nothing but an infinite singularity, there is some comfort in knowing that there was/is “something out there” that is greater than mankind. I believe that something to be God.

I am additionally pleased that it is not up to me to judge the belief of others nor is it up to me to judge the unbelief of others. I do think it is sad that the non-believers have no source or no anchor on which to lean when their worlds are falling apart. The opposite of that is also sad; to whom do they turn when they want to thank “someone” for the extraordinary lives that they may be living: or do they think that it is all of their own doing? (Sadly that used to be me. Gladly that used to be me).

Ted, you said it all, way long ago. People say here that they are hearing what the spirit says...
:-)))

[Sophie11]

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Keepingitreal has the wisdom -

I was looking for the elders of our country to speak the truth!

[Patty55]

I really would like answer to my original question on this topic. When you all quote the bible do you do it from memory or do you look it up? Not being snarky or sarcastic, I've found it amazing how you all just whip them out.

I was brought up Catholic, we keep it simple. It comes down to "Where is God? God is everywhere." Then you hook up the trailer and off you go.

[kittygilchrist]

I really would like answer to my original question on this topic. When you all quote the bible do you do it from memory or do you look it up? Not being snarky or sarcastic, I've found it amazing how you all just whip them out.

I was brought up Catholic, we keep it simple. It comes down to "Where is God? God is everywhere." Then you hook up the trailer and off you go.

I usually know it by rote. Sometimes I look it up to share context not fully in memory.

[CFrance]

Please don't highlight in yellow. I (and I'm sure others) cannot read it. Thanks.
You have to highlight in some other color other than the white (which is how a quoted post shows up against a dark green background), or you won't know which are the words of the post you are quoting and which are your words in reply to that post. Yellow happens to show up against dark green better than any other color. If you have another color in mind that would show up against dark green--other than white--please mention it.

[CFrance]

I usually know it by rote. Sometimes I look it up to share context not fully in memory.
I usually know it by google. My memory is not that exact where religious history/the bible is concerned.

[Patty55]

I usually know it by rote. Sometimes I look it up to share context not fully in memory.

Thank you, I've wondered about that. Prior to moving here I had no exposure to Christians. We considered Christian to be Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran and Episcopalian.

The other thing I always wondered about is where do Chistians get buried? I've never seen a Chistian cemetary. All of the other faiths have their own with their own traditions. They have been blurred over the years, a lot of people seem to have adapted what they feel comfort in. A lot of it seems borrowed from the Jews, stones on headstones, planting at the end of the year-I do this myself now.

Sorry to go OT, this enquiring mind just wanted to know.

[kittygilchrist]

My family in Tennessee all get buried in community cemeteries. Decorating graves with elaborate florals in spring is a beautiful family ritual.

[CFrance]

Thank you, I've wondered about that. Prior to moving here I had no exposure to Christians. We considered Christian to be Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran and Episcopalian.

The other thing I always wondered about is where do Chistians get buried? I've never seen a Chistian cemetary. All of the other faiths have their own with their own traditions. They have been blurred over the years, a lot of people seem to have adapted what they feel comfort in. A lot of it seems borrowed from the Jews, stones on headstones, planting at the end of the year-I do this myself now.

Sorry to go OT, this enquiring mind just wanted to know.
Christians ARE Catholic, Protestant, (as in Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc.) Anyone who believes Jesus Christ is the son of God is a Christian. Some churches have come to describes themselves as Christians to the exclusion of other churches, but they do not have the exclusive right to call themselves Christians.

Also OT, sorry.

[dbussone]

I really would like answer to my original question on this topic. When you all quote the bible do you do it from memory or do you look it up? Not being snarky or sarcastic, I've found it amazing how you all just whip them out.



I was brought up Catholic, we keep it simple. It comes down to "Where is God? God is everywhere." Then you hook up the trailer and off you go.


I look it up. Having been brought up Catholic, but now a former Catholic, I take great pleasure in reading the bible myself.

[dbussone]

You have to highlight in some other color other than the white (which is how a quoted post shows up against a dark green background), or you won't know which are the words of the post you are quoting and which are your words in reply to that post. Yellow happens to show up against dark green better than any other color. If you have another color in mind that would show up against dark green--other than white--please mention it.


I'm not sure what would work, other than blue. Yellow does not.

[CFrance]

I'm not sure what would work, other than blue. Yellow does not.
I can read yellow against dark green fine. Anyone else have any suggestions? A darker color does not show up against the dark green that is the background TOTV uses when you quote a post.

[graciegirl]

I can read yellow against dark green fine. Anyone else have any suggestions? A darker color does not show up against the dark green that is the background TOTV uses when you quote a post.


I use pink.

[CFrance]

...

[dbussone]

...


Well, maybe I'm colorblind for certain colors. Thanks for trying to help.

[CFrance]

Well, maybe I'm colorblind for certain colors. Thanks for trying to help.
Yes, sorry, dbussone. I tried to put pink in as Gracie's suggestion, but I totally flubbed it up. I will try again tomorrow, in a separate thread so it's not going OT.

[Bonanza]

Mine too!
He turned my life around. I will always be grateful.

Oh. He turned your life around?

Were you an alcoholic or a drug user???

[Bonanza]

We all have a choice to believe or not.
The Bible clearly states one must believe in Jesus Christ to get to heaven.
There are a lot of very nice people everywhere I go but will Jesus say that he knew them when they go on?
Remember e=MC2 - energy never dies it only changes - 1 Corinthians 15:51 - 15:52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

No, the Bible doesn't say that.
I think you mean the New Testament.
There is a difference.

[Bonanza]

I can read yellow against dark green fine. Anyone else have any suggestions? A darker color does not show up against the dark green that is the background TOTV uses when you quote a post.

Orange -- the darker orange on green -- works for me.

[rubicon]

If you are saying that the Bible is not true and any pope would agree with Hawkins that there is no God then things are worse than previously thought. I do not believe any denomination should be dabbling in such things, science cannot ever explain or replace required faith to find and serve God. So many have wavered on doctrine trying to adjust to current situations but God has not and does not change. The pope then and now are just mortal men and have the same limitations and problems as any other man. They live and die just like the rest. I am not Catholic and will take my personal experience and the written word of King David, King Solomon, Moses, and the apostles inspired of God. No one needs another to intercede with God for them. We pray directly to God and we receive our answers the same way. God called preachers to preach the gospel to the lost and when they are convicted of the sin of unbelief it is between them and God from that point. Others can pray for them but they have to find him on their own.

Hawkins can believe whatever he wants as I cannot and would not try to force anything I believe upon anyone but I will explain why I believe as I do. I will not sit by and let his opinion be perceived as fact at least not for me.

Hawkins has made an ill informed statement which he cannot prove that basically nullifies anyones belief in God and this was wrong. He may believe what he says but he has no proof and has no right to say this. He can say he believes it all he wants. It is hard to understand why the Vatican would associate with anyone so vile they would make such a statement.

Hawkins should have better spent his time trying to find a cure for his own ailment which would have benefitted many others. This would have required real research that could have been proven and carried a risk of failure rather than indulging in just his speculations which cannot be proven.

Psalms 14:1
King James Version of Psalms 14:1.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



Keeping It Real:

Now here is where I get lost. The pope is mortal and just like any other man can have the same limitations and problems. I assume because preachers, rabbis inman are also mortal they have limitations and problems like any other man? And if they are mortal and can error then from the very first man who by worth of mouth passed down stories of the bible (Torah) (Koran) to other men who eventually recorded them can they too be in error? Those believers base the accuracy of the bible on faith that the bible is inspired by God and directed by God to be an accounting of his works and deeds and that of his instruction on man must live.

Likewise science is based on faith that a theory can be proven and that when proven it supports a scientist position but science is never settled and new discoveries only destroy old beliefs

Faith is internal its a stirring, a craving within us and based on our philosophical and psychological profiles carries us to our pre-determined genetic destinations. That is why some people are Catholics, some Jews some Morons, some prefer silent prayer while others prefer shouting out the gospel in song, some bow to the east.

It is all very complicated and so I continue to read, to listen and to analysis what clergy, scientist believers non-believers have to say but I keep coming back to that same point we are all mortal men and we error

[Patty55]

If you are saying that the Bible is not true and any pope would agree with Hawkins that there is no God then things are worse than previously thought. I do not believe any denomination should be dabbling in such things, science cannot ever explain or replace required faith to find and serve God. So many have wavered on doctrine trying to adjust to current situations but God has not and does not change. The pope then and now are just mortal men and have the same limitations and problems as any other man. They live and die just like the rest. I am not Catholic and will take my personal experience and the written word of King David, King Solomon, Moses, and the apostles inspired of God. No one needs another to intercede with God for them. We pray directly to God and we receive our answers the same way. God called preachers to preach the gospel to the lost and when they are convicted of the sin of unbelief it is between them and God from that point. Others can pray for them but they have to find him on their own.

Hawkins can believe whatever he wants as I cannot and would not try to force anything I believe upon anyone but I will explain why I believe as I do. I will not sit by and let his opinion be perceived as fact at least not for me.

Hawkins has made an ill informed statement which he cannot prove that basically nullifies anyones belief in God and this was wrong. He may believe what he says but he has no proof and has no right to say this. He can say he believes it all he wants. It is hard to understand why the Vatican would associate with anyone so vile they would make such a statement.

Hawkins should have better spent his time trying to find a cure for his own ailment which would have benefitted many others. This would have required real research that could have been proven and carried a risk of failure rather than indulging in just his speculations which cannot be proven.

Psalms 14:1
King James Version of Psalms 14:1.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



Jeez Louise, if you insist on discussing this man please at the very least get his name right. It is STEPHEN HAWKING, not Hawkins. He is a physiscist at Cambridge. In his book A Brief History in Time he discusses his views on creation. At that time he did not declare himself an atheist but concluded that if creation was self contained then God would not have the freedom to choose.

Perhaps you should consider reading some of his work (I don't think they have pictures) or at the very least spell his name properly. FYI, he has ALS, to suggest that he take time from quantum gravity to cure himself almost seems cruel.

Now, I would love to hear your thoughts on other "fools". Einstein? Tesla has always fascinated me, any thoughts on him?

[graciegirl]

Let's all step back about five paces and look at this debate. We are all good people, believers and non believers, and we should be very grateful that we have our brain cells functioning well enough to argue with each other.

By their works we shall know them, and we haven't been arrested, we pay our bills, take care of ourselves and try to help others and most of us can laugh at ourselves when we become so serious we ruin our own day.

We won't change what is and we won't change each other and we can all feel very privately superior because we think we know better.

I am a big supporter of random acts of kindness and I have been the recipient of many this week. It is my turn to find someone to be kind too.

I have grown to admire so many of you with whom I agree and don't agree and I am so glad to be here with you in this beautiful place.

AND I mean that from my heart.

Dominus Vobiscum

[Walter123]

Jeez Louise, if you insist on discussing this man please at the very least get his name right. It is STEPHEN HAWKING, not Hawkins. He is a physiscist at Cambridge. In his book A Brief History in Time he discusses his views on creation. At that time he did not declare himself an atheist but concluded that if creation was self contained then God would not have the freedom to choose.

Perhaps you should consider reading some of his work (I don't think they have pictures) or at the very least spell his name properly. FYI, he has ALS, to suggest that he take time from quantum gravity to cure himself almost seems cruel.

Now, I would love to hear your thoughts on other "fools". Einstein? Tesla has always fascinated me, any thoughts on him?

You have the guts to say what I was thinking.

[tucson]

Everyone including Hawking, Einstein,Tesla, will one day in eternity stand before God and give an account of their lives. And it won't be "well, I was a good person, I gave food to the food bank or I went to church every Sunday, or at Easter or Christmas, I said "nice things" to people,etc.etc.. That is like"filthy rags" as the Bible tells us. But he that has given their lives completely in submission and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior, the One and Only True Lord will hear these Words, "well done my good and faithful servant" enter in....

[Sophie11]

you must put GOD 1st and everything else 2nd.
You must never change what is written in our Bibles! To the people who say are Bibles are wrong….you are why we must go through this!
Pride will never make it to heaven…..GOD is everything!

[nitehawk]

Jeez Louise, if you insist on discussing this man please at the very least get his name right. It is STEPHEN HAWKING, not Hawkins. He is a physiscist at Cambridge. In his book A Brief History in Time he discusses his views on creation. At that time he did not declare himself an atheist but concluded that if creation was self contained then God would not have the freedom to choose.

Perhaps you should consider reading some of his work (I don't think they have pictures) or at the very least spell his name properly. FYI, he has ALS, to suggest that he take time from quantum gravity to cure himself almost seems cruel.

Now, I would love to hear your thoughts on other "fools". Einstein? Tesla has always fascinated me, any thoughts on him?
:bigbow::bigbow:

[Walter123]

Everyone including Hawking, Einstein,Tesla, will one day in eternity stand before God and give an account of their lives. And it won't be "well, I was a good person, I gave food to the food bank or I went to church every Sunday, or at Easter or Christmas, I said "nice things" to people,etc.etc.. That is like"filthy rags" as the Bible tells us. But he that has given their lives completely in submission and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior, the One and Only True Lord will hear these Words, "well done my good and faithful servant" enter in....

I will be the best person I can be. I think that's all you can do. If there is a God then he should know what's in your heart and mind. I wouldn't think you would have to give an account of your life. Filthy rags? I don't think so.

[Patty55]

Everyone including Hawking, Einstein,Tesla, will one day in eternity stand before God and give an account of their lives. And it won't be "well, I was a good person, I gave food to the food bank or I went to church every Sunday, or at Easter or Christmas, I said "nice things" to people,etc.etc.. That is like"filthy rags" as the Bible tells us. But he that has given their lives completely in submission and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior, the One and Only True Lord will hear these Words, "well done my good and faithful servant" enter in....

Just so you know, Einstein and Tesla have already stood before God.

Wait, I have one for you all ll Corinthians 11:19

It's Sunday morning (kind of), shouldn't you people be in church? Have you all crossed over to the dark side and now know that God is everywhere, including your heart and not restricted to a brick and mortar building.

Do they really serve pie at those day long sessions?

[Patty55]

you must put GOD 1st and everything else 2nd.
You must never change what is written in our Bibles! To the people who say are Bibles are wrong….you are why we must go through this!
Pride will never make it to heaven…..GOD is everything!

Whoa, this sounds smug and prideful to me.

[Barefoot]

... Snipped ... God is everywhere, including your heart and not restricted to a brick and mortar building.


I will be the best person I can be. I think that's all you can do. If there is a God then he should know what's in your heart and mind. I wouldn't think you would have to give an account of your life. Filthy rags? I don't think so.

:agree:
God is everywhere.
God is not vengeful.
God is love.

[Schaumburger]

:agree:
God is everywhere.
God is not vengeful.
God is love.

:bigbow:

[DAWN MARIE]

Everyone including Hawking, Einstein,Tesla, will one day in eternity stand before God and give an account of their lives. And it won't be "well, I was a good person, I gave food to the food bank or I went to church every Sunday, or at Easter or Christmas, I said "nice things" to people,etc.etc.. That is like"filthy rags" as the Bible tells us. But he that has given their lives completely in submission and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior, the One and Only True Lord will hear these Words, "well done my good and faithful servant" enter in....

Amen! This is absolutely right. Won't win you brownie points here on earth but the angels in heaven are happy because you are speaking truth. It's NOT about us as we've been taught. It's all about HIM. The reason our world is so screwed up is because we don't have our priorities right. I do believe we have most certainly forgotten the very first commandment.

[DAWN MARIE]

Just so you know, Einstein and Tesla have already stood before God.





Einstein and Tesla have not been judged yet nor have they been resurrected yet according to the book of Revelation which is called the White Throne Judgement. Rev 20:11-15.

[Patty55]

Einstein and Tesla have not been judged yet nor have they been resurrected yet according to the book of Revelation which is called the White Throne Judgement. Rev 20:11-15.

According to my book, the book of PattyLand, they have been judged but not resurrected. Please reference PL 27:52.

[Villages PL]

No, this is a debate about religion. Not food and how to eat! The body being a temple, in religious sense, has nothing to do with what to eat.


Please stop twisting subjects people are posting about out of context in order to insert your favorite subject into every thread.

I was responding to a poster who said she went from not believing to believing. So I inquired how one would go about doing that.

She also stated that if you believe something strongly enough, you naturally want to tell people about it.

So I tied it in with North Lake Presbyterian Churchs' mission to spread the word about living a healthy lifestyle because, as they said, your body is a temple. And the article quoted them as including healthy food choices.

I can't help it if you didn't see the connection to religion. I'm sure many others did.

[Villages PL]

I believe one can be a good person without believing in God, Allah, Jesus , Mohammed, etc.

Absolutely, I agree.

[KayakerNC]

I was responding to a poster who said she went from unbelieving to believing. So I inquired how one would go about doing that.

She also stated that if you believe something strongly enough, you naturally want to tell people about it.

So I tied it in with North Lake Presbyterian Churchs' mission to spread the word about living a healthy lifestyle because, as they said, your body is a temple. And the article quoted them as including healthy food choices.

I can't help it if you didn't see the connection to religion. I'm sure many others did.

Nope, I didn't see the connection either.....still don't. :popcorn:

[blueash]

According to my book, the book of PattyLand, they have been judged but not resurrected. Please reference PL 27:52.


We have a winner. Where do I obtain a copy of The Book of PattyLand (It should have caps shouldn't it?) ?

And I really enjoyed the comment by Rubicon, although clearly a typo:

"That is why some people are Catholics, some Jews, some Morons"

That was laugh out loud funny. I have been claiming to be a Pastafarian, but instead now I am converting to Moron. Still can't decide whether I am going to be a Fundamentalist Moron or a Reform Moron.

[graciegirl]

We have a winner. Where do I obtain a copy of The Book of PattyLand (It should have caps shouldn't it?) ?

And I really enjoyed the comment by Rubicon, although clearly a typo:



That was laugh out loud funny. I have been claiming to be a Pastafarian, but instead now I am converting to Moron. Still can't decide whether I am going to be a Fundamentalist Moron or a Reform Moron.


Please don't grow sideburns and become cloistered.

[Polar Bear]

...Still can't decide whether I am going to be a Fundamentalist Moron or a Reform Moron.


No need to choose. I have been a devout, life-long member of all denominations. :)

[Patty55]

That was laugh out loud funny. I have been claiming to be a Pastafarian, but instead now I am converting to Moron. Still can't decide whether I am going to be a Fundamentalist Moron or a Reform Moron.

I'm going with Reform Moron, it's probably less work. I have friends who are Reform Jews or as they put it, the next best thing to not even being Jewish.

[DAWN MARIE]

According to my book, the book of PattyLand, they have been judged but not resurrected. Please reference PL 27:52.

Alrighty then...I stand corrected! :icon_wink:

[DAWN MARIE]

I was responding to a poster who said she went from not believing to believing. So I inquired how one would go about doing that.

She also stated that if you believe something strongly enough, you naturally want to tell people about it.

So I tied it in with North Lake Presbyterian Churchs' mission to spread the word about living a healthy lifestyle because, as they said, your body is a temple. And the article quoted them as including healthy food choices.

I can't help it if you didn't see the connection to religion. I'm sure many others did.

That would be me. How does one go from unbelieving to believing? It's really an act of God but it starts with a desire to know more about God. It's a quest to answer life's basic questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I leave here? God said in His word that those who seek him with all their heart will find Him. Along with that comes the answers to these questions. But until God touches our heart, mind and eyes we cannot really believe enough to follow Him.

Not sure about North Lake but it is good to take care of our bodies as they are the temple of God and a temple of God is to be useful for His mission. So the better we care for our bodies the longer we can be of service to do His will.

[CFrance]

You absolutely do not have to have a desire to know more about God to go from unbelieving to believing. God can come to you. It has happened to many people when they least expected it.

[Barefoot]

You absolutely do not have to have a desire to know more about God to go from unbelieving to believing. God can come to you. It has happened to many people when they least expected it.

At the risk of being judged as irresponsible, irreverent and of taking an important topic too lightly ....
To go from unbelieving to believing in God is much like falling in love.
It happens, you know it, and life is changed.
As CFrance said, God can come to you.

[kittygilchrist]

Breathtaking post, Barefoot. That is just how it happens...

[Villages PL]

That would be me. How does one go from unbelieving to believing? It's really an act of God but it starts with a desire to know more about God. It's a quest to answer life's basic questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I leave here? God said in His word that those who seek him with all their heart will find Him. Along with that comes the answers to these questions. But until God touches our heart, mind and eyes we cannot really believe enough to follow Him.

Not sure about North Lake but it is good to take care of our bodies as they are the temple of God and a temple of God is to be useful for His mission. So the better we care for our bodies the longer we can be of service to do His will.

Thanks for straightening that out as their were those who thought there's no connection between religion and keeping ourselves physically healthy.

[CFrance]

You're missing the point entirely, or twisting it around to make your argument.

[Villages PL]

You're missing the point entirely, or twisting it around to make your argument.

You're the one who's twisting and missing the point because you're carrying baggage from previous threads.

[CFrance]

Just playing with you--seeing how many times you have to have the last word.:boxing2: The original Bible quote about the body being a temple had nothing to do with food. That was your idea.

[Villages PL]

Patty55: God is everywhere, including your heart and not restricted to a brick and mortar building.

I like that. I was about to start a new thread along those lines. But will anyone like it? I doubt it but I'll give it a try anyway. :) Stay tuned.

[Villages PL]

Just playing with you--seeing how many times you have to have the last word.:boxing2: The original Bible quote about the body being a temple had nothing to do with food. That was your idea.

It requires logical thinking. If your body is a temple in a spiritual sense, then it stands to reason you need a strong physical foundation or the temple will crumble. But I wouldn't expect you to see that if you are still carrying baggage from previous threads.

BTW, you played the "last word" game once before and it's getting old.

[Chi-Town]

At the risk of being judged as irresponsible, irreverent and of taking an important topic too lightly ....
To go from unbelieving to believing in God is much like falling in love.
It happens, you know it, and life is changed.
As CFrance said, God can come to you.


To those who would judge they should remember "judge not and ye shall not be judged" or something close to that.

[CFrance]

It requires logical thinking. If your body is a temple in a spiritual sense, then it stands to reason you need a strong physical foundation or the temple will crumble. But I wouldn't expect you to see that if you are still carrying baggage from previous threads.

BTW, you played the "last word" game once before and it's getting old.
You can be a criminal, grossly overweight, alcoholic, addicted to drugs, and mean as a coot, and if your spirit is open to God, your body is a temple.

The last word game only works as long as you keep playing it. But you win. We will never agree on this issue, and I'm bowing out of the thread.

[graciegirl]

you can be a criminal, grossly overweight, alcoholic, addicted to drugs, and mean as a coot, and if your spirit is open to god, your body is a temple.

The last word game only works as long as you keep playing it. But you win. We will never agree on this issue, and i'm bowing out of the thread.



Don't gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

And by the way that is my view on the temple and God thing too.

[rubicon]

We have a winner. Where do I obtain a copy of The Book of PattyLand (It should have caps shouldn't it?) ?

And I really enjoyed the comment by Rubicon, although clearly a typo:



That was laugh out loud funny. I have been claiming to be a Pastafarian, but instead now I am converting to Moron. Still can't decide whether I am going to be a Fundamentalist Moron or a Reform Moron.

blueash: Why do you assume it was a typo?

[rubicon]

A re-reading of the posts generally seems to revolve around doctrine (Bible) and truth (discipline/a path to the truth via the practice of worship) And it can be concluded that the path to genuine truth/ spirituality, that epiphany moment, is created out of pain and suffering. It is something seldom felt by the care free idle rich.

Essentially a need is created deep within some and fashion how they live and why they live and how they perceive both eternities.

If I could believe in just one thing then it would be reincarnation. I've placed the order in my mind as to what how and whom I will be upon my return and admit to being egotistical and greedy....may God forgive me

[bkcunningham1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZNtetlTXY

Be gentle with others. Please.

[Barefoot]

If I could believe in just one thing then it would be reincarnation.

That's an interesting comment Rubicon. I find the idea of reincarnation and karma intriguing.
Are you coming back as an early retiree to The Villages with tee times guaranteed daily? :)
I'm afraid I may come back as a feral kitten foraging for food in the Publix parking lot.

[graciegirl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZNtetlTXY

Be gentle with others. Please.


Ahhh Brenda Kay. I love you.

[DAWN MARIE]

You absolutely do not have to have a desire to know more about God to go from unbelieving to believing. God can come to you. It has happened to many people when they least expected it.

I do believe in the Sovereignty of God so I don't totally disagree with this statement but I was referring to Jeremiah 29:13 which says: "And you shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart."

Obviously to even get to the point where one is searching, the Holy Spirit is doing the prompting. Until then, we do not have a desire to do so. So it all starts with God in the first place.

[DAWN MARIE]

You can be a criminal, grossly overweight, alcoholic, addicted to drugs, and mean as a coot, and if your spirit is open to God, your body is a temple.
.

And the first thing that will be done by God is a good cleaning. He loves you too much to leave you in this condition. Then you will be useful to others, most likely those who are where you once were.

[rubicon]

That's an interesting comment Rubicon. I find the idea of reincarnation and karma intriguing.
Are you coming back as an early retiree to The Villages with tee times guaranteed daily? :)
I'm afraid I may come back as a feral kitten foraging for food in the Publix parking lot.

Hi Barefoot: Isn't the idea of reincarnation a cool idea. If I have earned enough points perhaps I can come back as a handsome rich and famous sports figure..maybe a matinee idol. Do I want brown eyes again or blue? But then like you I far that perhaps I probably will show up as a clump of dust under someone's bed and worst yet under the bed of a matinee idol.:D

My mother was a very strict Catholic said her rosary every night. She believed in karma. Her favorite saw was "don't spit at the heavens because they will spit back at you".

[Patty55]

That's an interesting comment Rubicon. I find the idea of reincarnation and karma intriguing.
Are you coming back as an early retiree to The Villages with tee times guaranteed daily? :)
I'm afraid I may come back as a feral kitten foraging for food in the Publix parking lot.

They say we keep coming across the same souls. Maybe your karma will be that one of your rescued pets will be a person and save you from the parking lot.

[Sandtrap328]

Am I reading this very long thread correctly to understand some posters believe the Earth is less than 6,000 years old; evolution is a myth ; and that fossil records cannot be believed?

Check out the Creation Museum in Kentucky (naturally) for their non-scientific beliefs that even show modern looking "Garden of Eden" people romping with dinosaurs. Maybe it was Fred Flintstone and Dino?

[tedquick]

Am I reading this very long thread correctly to understand some posters believe the Earth is less than 6,000 years old; evolution is a myth ; and that fossil records cannot be believed?

Check out the Creation Museum in Kentucky (naturally) for their non-scientific beliefs that even show modern looking "Garden of Eden" people romping with dinosaurs. Maybe it was Fred Flintstone and Dino?

I have strong Christian friends of mine, who, when I said it was warmer 500,000 years ago than now (as we were discussing the hoax of "global warming" in today's environment), were incredulous and quickly explained to me that the earth was only somewhere between 8 and 10,000 years old. When I brought up the science of carbon dating they said that they chose to believe what was in the Bible. We simply agreed to disagree. Other than that they are both very involved people and "normal" in all other seeming ways, so one's belief can indeed be a strange bed partner. While they know what is right for them, I know what is right for me.

[quirky3]

New comments from Pope Francis on this topic:
Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God isn't 'a magician with a magic wand' - Europe - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html)

[graciegirl]

///

[quirky3]

Posting a quote from the Pope is not being un-gentle.

[graciegirl]

[///

[quirky3]

We can agree to disagree on selective sensitivity within a discussion forum.

"I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads without having their motives called into question."

[Chi-Town]

I graduated from Loyola University and can tell you that the Jesuits are progressive (by Catholic standards) in their preaching and teaching. Perhaps that is why Francis is the first Jesuit pope. The origin of the universe and evolution were discussed in the required Theology classes and closely resembled the Pope's recent announcement. And that was in the late 60's. So hardly earth shattering news to some.

[blueash]

MESSAGE TO THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES:
ON EVOLUTION
Pope John Paul II
Pope John Paul II* 22 October 1996** To Pontifical Academy of Sciences (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM)

"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation,

Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.* In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

What is the significance of a theory such as this one? To open this question is to enter into the field of epistemology. A theory is a meta-scientific elaboration, which is distinct from, but in harmony with, the results of observation. With the help of such a theory a group of data and independent facts can be related to one another and interpreted in one comprehensive explanation. The theory proves its validity by the measure to which it can be verified. It is constantly being tested against the facts; when it can no longer explain these facts, it shows its limits and its lack of usefulness, and it must be revised."


The Catholic church's recognition of the scientific evidence for evolution is not new. It goes back over 50 years. What this pope said is nothing new. It just has been magnified by the progressives in the hierarchy as a sign of a more modern church, and reviled by the conservatives who wish to return to rigid orthodoxy. But, it is nothing new at all.
Pope, evolution: Francis statement on science echoes earlier Church pronouncements. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/10/28/pope_evolution_francis_statement_on_science_echoes _earlier_church_pronouncements.html)

[rubicon]

It is a monumental task to gather all the theories beliefs,etc pertaining to creation spoken or written by men for men since the beginning of time. People once believed that the earth was flat and now we can launch a vehicle into space and see for ourselves that the earth is somewhat oblong. We create a history based on what we have discovered to date and speculate about what it means but we can never know.....at least as of today

It is good that religious institution are open to working with the scientific community. I say this because all over the world Jewish and Christian religions are being systematically dismantled not only by Europeans and extremist in the middle east but by atheists right here in America.

I was saddened to see Hollywood's depiction of Noah and have recently learned that the director (his name escapes me) but he is an atheist and has made a movie about Moses wherein he claims Moses to have been both a schizophrenic and very cruel.

I make this point to illustrate how just one man can change the conversation based on pure conjecture. This artistic license is irresponsible and very prejudicial but unfortunately there are no agency to regulate this kind of behavior

I like Don Rumsfeld approach:

There are known knowns
There are known unknowns
There are unknown unknowns
There are unknown knowns

When it comes to the big bang theory keep this mind;)

[Sophie11]

8 Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Christian churches are being slammed as is the holidays of Christmas & Easter. Seems very strange to me that this generation knows more then the previous generations. Why has this all happened in the last 15 years? You can condemn Christianity and no one says anything but yet if you bring up the aggressive religions you are talking in hate speech.

If someone steals from their church it will hit every paper in the country enforcing that you can not trust Christian churches.

Talking about the big bang theory is just another way not to believe in the book of Genesis - the Jewish and the Christian 1st book.

[Sandtrap328]

...and the Earth is 6,000 years old?

[KayakerNC]

Talking about the big bang theory is just another way not to believe in the book of Genesis - the Jewish and the Christian 1st book.

Really? What a strange conclusion.

[Sophie11]

...and the Earth is 6,000 years old?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

[Sandtrap328]

What do the Young Earth Creationists think about that? They believe every word as literal truth in the Bible and have their date of creation as about 6,000 years ago- with no doublespeak.

[Sophie11]

Jesus is the WORD (and the WORD became flesh) and I believe everything it says. It is our manual for having a happy, heathy life. There is nothing in there that is wrong and prior to the last few years you would never hear there was. Jesus said to eat of his body - Bread & Wine. Read the WORD.

[Challenger]

I wach the Big Bang Theory every evening and find it most plausable!!!

This thread is shortly headed to it's final perdition. Just a few more posts and people will begin talking trash because others have different beliefs.

[Sophie11]

We are still a Christian nation and under GOD.

[Sandtrap328]

We are still a Christian nation and under GOD.

I do have friends in The Villages who are Muslim and Jewish. Are they welcome in a Christian nation and free to worship as they please?

[Challenger]

We are still a Christian nation and under GOD.

Can you find me a quote in any of our founding documents that declare that we are to be a "Christian" nation?

[Sophie11]

Well I really do not need to find anything as it is all around you. How many Christian churches are in the villages? Do a google search for Christian churches in The Villages or Lady Lake and then do the same thing with another religion. Everywhere you look is a Christian church - I am from a village up north and we had 20 Christian churches and no other religions were present.

[KayakerNC]

We are still a Christian nation and under GOD.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The word Christianity doesn’t appear even once in our Constitution.
It wasn’t until 1954 that the phrase “under God” was actually added to our pledge.

[Challenger]

Well I really do not need to find anything as it is all around you. How many Christian churches are in the villages? Do a google search for Christian churches in The Villages or Lady Lake and then do the same thing with another religion. Everywhere you look is a Christian church - I am from a village up north and we had 20 Christian churches and no other religions were present.

It apprears that your response to my question is no.

[Bonanza]

Well I really do not need to find anything as it is all around you. How many Christian churches are in the villages? Do a google search for Christian churches in The Villages or Lady Lake and then do the same thing with another religion. Everywhere you look is a Christian church - I am from a village up north and we had 20 Christian churches and no other religions were present.

That's pretty sad.
It's like not being able to see beyond the nose on your face.

[Bonanza]

Jesus is the WORD (and the WORD became flesh) and I believe everything it says. It is our manual for having a happy, heathy life. There is nothing in there that is wrong and prior to the last few years you would never hear there was. Jesus said to eat of his body - Bread & Wine. Read the WORD.

"Our?" Who is "our?"

I think your words are a little too heavy for the TOTV site.

[Bonanza]

...

[TheVillageChicken]

Jesus is the WORD (and the WORD became flesh) and I believe everything it says. It is our manual for having a happy, heathy life. There is nothing in there that is wrong and prior to the last few years you would never hear there was. Jesus said to eat of his body - Bread & Wine. Read the WORD.

If you believe every word in the Bible, I assume you are OK with 1 Timothy 2:12

[Challenger]

Is the Big Bang theory consistent with the Bible? If not, please explain. For the non-believers – If not God, then how?

Two recent threads about prayer and “God’s knowledge” were the inspiration for this post.

Pope Francis has just reiterated what has been Roman Catholic for the past 50 years or more, that the Big Bang Theory and Evolution are not inconsistent with RC doctrine. "God is not a magician" -his words not mine.

[tucson]

Of course God is not a magician!

He is the ONLY TRUE God of the Universe and is all powerful, sovereign and created the world by His spoken Word!

1st Day,God SAID, "let here be light" AND there WAS light!
2nd Day, God SAID, "let there be sky and waters" AND there was!
3rd Day, God SAID, "let there be Land, Vegetation and Seas" AND there was!
4th Day, God SAID, "let there be Sun,Moon,and Stars" and there was!
5th Day, God SAID, "let there be Fish and Birds" and there was!
6th Day, God Said, "let there be "Animals", "Man and Woman" and there was!
7th Day, God rested and declared all He had made to be very good!

[Sophie11]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. I do not see problem with this! Let a women's husband be the head.

[blueash]

Taliban, Sharia law, fundamentalist rigidity and absolute certainty of only one truth, THE truth, THE BOOK, my GOD, and if you don't believe me, here are more lines from my BOOK. Oh sorry, that was the Christian bible, not the Koran, oh sorry, apologizing and bowing low.

[Sophie11]

Never be sorry for the TRUTH? When a man and a woman get married they become one. A true man of GOD would never hurt his wife because it would be like he cut off his foot!

[tedquick]

Pope Francis has just reiterated what has been Roman Catholic for the past 50 years or more, that the Big Bang Theory and Evolution are not inconsistent with RC doctrine. "God is not a magician" -his words not mine.

You are, of course, right! God is NOT a magician. He is the Creator of everything. The Creator needs no magic.

[KeepingItReal]

Can you find me a quote in any of our founding documents that declare that we are to be a "Christian" nation?

Anyone would have to agree our founding fathers relied heavily on God for strength and direction as shown in the video link below..

The course we are on now will only bring more sorrows and pain to this country.

“Within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems men face.”
― Ronald Reagan

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton (http://stg.do/Iwpc)

[KeepingItReal]

Pope Francis has just reiterated what has been Roman Catholic for the past 50 years or more, that the Big Bang Theory and Evolution are not inconsistent with RC doctrine. "God is not a magician" -his words not mine.

Evolution vs GOD

Why do so many have so much faith in evolution but deny the creator and savior?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ#t=61

[allus70]

"If you are a true believer in the big bang theory, then you should know Creation took place, therefore there is a creator. Therefore, God exists!"

If Creation is dependent upon a Creator, who created the Creator?
If the Creator didn't require yet another Creator, but always existed, why can't this also be true of all Creation?

[tucson]

You are, of course, right! God is NOT a magician. He is the Creator of everything. The Creator needs no magic.

VERY true , God is NOT a magician. He is the only One who creates life from speaking His Words. Too bad there are so many people who believe the Pope.

[tedquick]

"If you are a true believer in the big bang theory, then you should know Creation took place, therefore there is a creator. Therefore, God exists!"

If Creation is dependent upon a Creator, who created the Creator?
If the Creator didn't require yet another Creator, but always existed, why can't this also be true of all Creation?

There is strong evidence that there was indeed a Big Bang which would then seem to preclude an "always universe".

[Polar Bear]

There is strong evidence that there was indeed a Big Bang which would then seem to preclude an "always universe".


Nahh. It only begs the obvious question...what was before the Big Bang? Doesn't have to be nothing.

[blueash]

Anyone would have to agree our founding fathers relied heavily on God for strength and direction as shown in the video link below..

The course we are on now will only bring more sorrows and pain to this country.

“Within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems men face.”
― Ronald Reagan

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton (http://stg.do/Iwpc)






I don't agree thus completely refuting your statement. Your choice to speak in absolutes is congruent with the absolutist world view of ideologues. David Barton is hardly a source I would rely on for a history lesson. You may if you like but this Anyone does not.

[blueash]

"If you are a true believer in the big bang theory, then you should know Creation took place, therefore there is a creator. Therefore, God exists!"

If Creation is dependent upon a Creator, who created the Creator?
If the Creator didn't require yet another Creator, but always existed, why can't this also be true of all Creation?

You are confusing science and faith. Scientists don't believe in the big bang, they accept it, they understand it, they study it, they modify it, they analyze it. Belief is a religious term. Do you believe in gravity? Do believe in electricity? Do you believe in molecules or algebra or oxygen?

Science is subject to refutation. It proudly announces its weaknesses and asks that anyone who can further elucidate the unknown tweak the theory, do the work (mental and/or physical) and advance science. Religion can be rigid, denying refutation, it claims its own perfection, and it attacks in its more virulent forms, any attempt to be tweaked or advanced.

If you choose to "believe" in a creator that is certainly a common belief. But it is not a belief subject to testing, refutation or adjustment. Faith is not science, science is not faith. I don't understand why that is so difficult for some to grasp.

[Villages PL]

This thread is getting a little long in the tooth. Has anything been proved yet, one way or the other?

No, neither the "Big Bang Theory" nor the existence of God can be proved conclusively. In the first case, science can only take us so far and in the second case, the existence of God is based on faith.

:spoken:

[KeepingItReal]

I don't agree thus completely refuting your statement. Your choice to speak in absolutes is congruent with the absolutist world view of ideologues. David Barton is hardly a source I would rely on for a history lesson. You may if you like but this Anyone does not.

Anyone willing to consider the facts would agree. Refuting the facts doesn't really make any difference and is totally expected. The evidence is clear, well documented, and indisputable. Those that choose to ignore the facts won't ever change or have a clear understanding since they refuse to consider the facts and rely on theories and unproven speculations. Gladly willing to look at any credible evidence anyone has that proves the opposite but then there really is none ever presented.

[tedquick]

Nahh. It only begs the obvious question...what was before the Big Bang? Doesn't have to be nothing.

While it does not have to be "nothing", many physicists have indicated that, based upon their mathematical models, there was nothing before the big bang. While math was one of my favorite subjects I am not a mathematician. I therefore rely on others for my evidence.

[onslowe]

Anyone willing to consider the facts would agree. Refuting the facts doesn't really make any difference and is totally expected. The evidence is clear, well documented, and indisputable. Those that choose to ignore the facts won't ever change or have a clear understanding since they refuse to consider the facts and rely on theories and unproven speculations. Gladly willing to look at any credible evidence anyone has that proves the opposite but then there really is none ever presented.



KeepingItReal, You mean that more than Thomas Jefferson were involved in the lengthy debates, articles and drafting of the Bill of Rights? Wow. Next you'll tell me the Constitution didn't really see the light of day until 1802 when Jefferson wrote his letter to the Danbury Baptists! Wow. :)

[rubicon]

Can you find me a quote in any of our founding documents that declare that we are to be a "Christian" nation?

challenger: everything I have read about the creation of the Declaration of independence, Constitution Bill of Rights were predicated on God and God given rights.

My position is I don't know about creation because the ony references i find ar from other human beings and whether Christian or science they are based on faith.

having said that I would prefer a nation under God rather than a nation under some secular entity. I mean would that be scary

[Sandtrap328]

The US Constitution says that all men are endowed by their Creator to be equal and to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Apparently, the Founding Fathers forgot about the 500,000 slaves in the USA. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and George Washington owned slaves.

Slaves were counted as three- fifths of a person for establishing the number of representatives in Congress.

These are the "God-given rights" of a Christian nation?

[Challenger]

The US Constitution says that all men are endowed by their Creator to be equal and to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Apparently, the Founding Fathers forgot about the 500,000 slaves in the USA. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and George Washington owned slaves.

Slaves were counted as three- fifths of a person for establishing the number of representatives in Congress.

These are the "God-given rights" of a Christian nation?

These "rights" are only given to christian nations ??? Hmmmmmm

[quirky3]

References to "God" or "creator" do not indicate "Christian" or exclude non-Christian.

[onslowe]

The US Constitution says that all men are endowed by their Creator to be equal and to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Apparently, the Founding Fathers forgot about the 500,000 slaves in the USA. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and George Washington owned slaves.

Slaves were counted as three- fifths of a person for establishing the number of representatives in Congress.

These are the "God-given rights" of a Christian nation?

Apart from an apparent lack of historical sense, what point is intended to be made by the painful self righteous and chronologically contemptuous comments for our nation's founding fathers?

[Sandtrap328]

Apart from an apparent lack of historical sense, what point is intended to be made by the painful self righteous and chronologically contemptuous comments for our nation's founding fathers?

.???

[blueash]

Those who have posted about the Constitution and endowed by their creator are wrong. That phrase is in the Declaration of Independence. It is not a legal document, it is a political statement directed specifically at King George who if you remember your history was not just the King of England but ruled by divine right (although some diminution of the divine right had already come to England by 1776). Thus when beseeching the King it is important to go over his head if you wish to act in opposition to his edicts. It was therefore in a political sense that the authors invoked rights from the Creator (never was the word God Lord Jesus Christian or any other specific creator mentioned). Prior to that phrase the terms Laws of Nature and Nature's God are used. Never the term mankind's God or anything similar. It is a very specific use of language invoking the arguments of Locke and others. I have always been amused that among the grievances against the King was that he encouraged the Merciless Indian Savages to attack the American frontiersmen.

The DOI is an important document. It is not however the Constitution. The Constitution was meant to guide the new nation when the Articles of Confederation were failing. Religion appears twice.
The first Amendment mentions religion and of course firmly states that there shall be no establishment of religion (which of course meant Christianity as it was the only possible religion that could have been chosen)
article 6 states :
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

No religious test means what it says. The wording about Oath or affirmation is also important. The difference is that an oath is typically taken on a religious object eg Bible, whereas an affirmation is simply a statement agreeing to a set of conditions.
Whereas the phrase so help me God has been used in swearing in ceremonies, in fact that phrase is not part of the Constitutional Oath.

[graciegirl]

It makes me sad when people use any means to be critical of others with different ways of looking at life and with different values and different creeds and different belief systems..

I was raised in a Christian/Jewish Community and we did just fine. I see nothing to gain for the devious ways people show their contempt for the religion of others.

Unless your faith directs you to kill someone in the name of your religion than keep it, cherish it, use it. Some of the very folks who say that we must value all people the same are some of the ones who disdain people of faith.

I don't always have deep faith, but it has been my good fortune to know many people who have been very good examples of the religion that they believe in.

In my opinion I think it makes for a kinder, better world to have people around who belong to an organized religion based on the Golden Rule.

Yes, there are people of religion who are cruel and mean, but not as often as people without religion make that point.

What happened to all the scientific atheists and agnostics that I knew so many of... that didn't pick on others about religion?.

We are all different and all valuable.

It really doesn't matter to me whether you believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible or believe the universe was created in seven 24 hour days or in billions of years, or whether you are a religious scholar or an atheist... or whether you are very smart or very not smart. It matters to me, at this stage in my life, if you are accepting and kind and warm.And you give real genuine hugs.

[kittygilchrist]

GG, love to you.

[allus70]

"There is strong evidence that there was indeed a Big Bang which would then seem to preclude an "always universe"."

Perhaps.
Perhaps the expansion and contraction of the universe is a never ending cyclical occurrence.
Perhaps there are an infinite number of "multiverses".
Perhaps there is so much that it will forever be unknown, lying forever beyond our comprehension and even our imagination.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio