Oklahoma beheading

[Cisco Kid]

Sure to be tonights headline news.
I do not know what to say.

FBI to investigate Oklahoma beheading; armed man stopped attacker - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/26/police-woman-beheaded-at-oklahoma-workplace/)

[gomoho]

I'm afraid this is only the beginning. Pray for our country and may God bless America.

[tucson]

Gomoho, I was just thinking the same exact thought. People need to get right with God, we are living in the last days as described in the Bible. I know I'll be mocked,criticized and persecuted for saying this, BUT it has to be said loud and clear.

[Buffalo Jim]

It will be more than interesting to see how the various Media Outlets " position " this heinous act . I note that the FBI has already labeled it as " Workplace Violence ".
I believe this was the same label which they ascribed to the Islamist who committed the shootings at as I recall Ft. Hood while he was a member of our Military .
In my book it is another act of Islamist Terrorism and nothing less .

[NotGolfer]

Gomoho, I was just thinking the same exact thought. People need to get right with God, we are living in the last days as described in the Bible. I know I'll be mocked,criticized and persecuted for saying this, BUT it has to be said loud and clear.

Pretty much agree with the two of you on this!!

[Patty55]

Have they determined yet if he is part of a group?

How about the Chicago airport thing? Anyone (other than me)think there might be more to that story?

[sunnyatlast]

Will wait to see if the Black Panthers show up in Moore, OK to defend the butcher and incite people to riot, burn, and scream for the head of the company's former CEO-reserve deputy sheriff who stopped the butcher with a rifle, because the courageous rescuer "shot an innocent black man in cold blood".

And we'll see if the whole butchery and attacks are blamed on the employer for firing him while "expressing his freedom of religion" (as in trying to convert co-workers to Islam as the co-workers reported).

The "alleged" beheader was released from prison in April, instead of in 2017, having the convictions shown here, that included drug trafficking, escape from detention, and assault and battery of police officer:

Offender Lookup - Detail (http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=634241&offender_book_id=391688&imageindex=6)

Suspect in co-worker's beheading was recently released from probation
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-woman-beheaded-oklahoma-20140926-story.html

[gomoho]

Have they determined yet if he is part of a group?

How about the Chicago airport thing? Anyone (other than me)think there might be more to that story?

Hoping he was just crazy and not participating in Jihad.

[Patty55]

Hoping he was just crazy and not participating in Jihad.

I know, my gut says he's a lone lunatic, I hope I'm right.

edit to add I just heard he is Muslim and was recruiting. So much for my gut.

[sunnyatlast]

Here's what's reported on his Facebook page (having apparent Taliban fighters in his cover photo). His Facebook page is linked in the article and is still active….

Oklahoma Beheader Alton Nolen Celebrated Terrorists On Facebook | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/26/sharia-law-is-coming-oklahoma-beheader-celebrated-terrorists-disparaged-non-muslims-on-facebook/)

[Stdole]

I am sure glad someone was on location with Second Amendment
beliefs and had his gun... now would this have been a good location
and incident to hand someone a cell phone to call 911 or take action
and attempt to eliminate the threat?

Any phone carrying people out there that think this would have worked
better than a trained second amendment on the scene?

Get my Point?

[sunnyatlast]

I am sure glad someone was on location with Second Amendment
beliefs and had his gun... now would this have been a good location
and incident to hand someone a cell phone to call 911 or take action
and attempt to eliminate the threat?

Any phone carrying people out there that think this would have worked
better than a trained second amendment on the scene?

Get my Point?

It will be termed something else, like "workplace violence" by Nidal Hasan at Ft. Hood.

[graciegirl]

On the NBC news tonight, they showed the workplace and Brian Williams said he beheaded one woman and stabbed another and then was "stopped" by another worker but not a peep that the had any connection to anything unusual.

[sunnyatlast]

On the NBC news tonight, they showed the workplace and Brian Williams said he beheaded one woman and stabbed another and then was "stopped" by another worker but not a peep that the had any connection to anything unusual.

Well, his Facebook page shows quite clearly an interest in beheadings by terrorists, in this picture containing this text:

"Thus do we find the clear precedent that explains the peculiar penchant of Islamic terrorists to behead their victims: it is merely another precedent bestowed by their <<Prophet>>:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=671490359575627&set=pb.100001440066246.-2207520000.1411773787.&type=3&theater

In the pictures there also two of Bin Laden, and his "Muslim sisters" dressed and armed like ISIS fighters, and many more to page thru with left and right arrows.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=669077316483598&set=pb.100001440066246.-2207520000.1411773787.&type=3&theater

[DAWN MARIE]

Gomoho, I was just thinking the same exact thought. People need to get right with God, we are living in the last days as described in the Bible. I know I'll be mocked,criticized and persecuted for saying this, BUT it has to be said loud and clear.

Not from me. We have to be pretty close. Matthew 24 is here now.

[DAWN MARIE]

I am afraid they are all over this country now. They have infiltrated. In my mind it's like they are just coming in over the walls like insects and no way to stop them. They are mixing in with our people. We have been so lax about who comes in and out of this country. We could really learn from the baby nation Israel right now. I went over there two years ago and it was unreal how hard it was for us to just visit from one end of Israel to another. They interrogated our whole group one by one by trained personnel asking personal questions and looking directly into our eyes to see if we were lying. It's like they were human lie detectors.

[Taltarzac725]

Sure to be tonights headline news.
I do not know what to say.

FBI to investigate Oklahoma beheading; armed man stopped attacker - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/26/police-woman-beheaded-at-oklahoma-workplace/)

Nut with a machete, sword or whatever he used to behead his victim. There are going to be people influenced sickly by what they see in the news, in books, and in movies. This has happened throughout US history.

http://preventioninstitute.org/unity?gclid=CMbr6eSQgMECFZJr7Aod_CkANA

[shcisamax]

Not to totally drive people to Islamophia but:
How the Muslim Brotherhood Is Winning in America | Clarion Project (http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/how-muslim-brotherhood-winning-america)

[dbussone]

It will be more than interesting to see how the various Media Outlets " position " this heinous act . I note that the FBI has already labeled it as " Workplace Violence ".
I believe this was the same label which they ascribed to the Islamist who committed the shootings at as I recall Ft. Hood while he was a member of our Military .
In my book it is another act of Islamist Terrorism and nothing less .

This is exactly what ISIL has asked individual Muslims in the US to do. "Workplace violence" is bologna.

[wendyquat]

This is exactly what ISIL has asked individual Muslims in the US to do. "Workplace violence" is bologna.m

His facebook page tells the tale! I read an article this weekend that some imams are telling Muslim doctors in America it is their duty to perform "medical jihad"! Very chilling as I personally have two Muslim doctors!

[Taltarzac725]

m

His facebook page tells the tale! I read an article this weekend that some imams are telling Muslim doctors in America it is their duty to perform "medical jihad"! Very chilling as I personally have two Muslim doctors!

The responses on here are the scary part. More common sense and logic. Criminals often put their plans on Facebook. What is more logical that some man upset about something at his job filled with rage for some reason became violent or some vast conspiracy involving Imans?

Conspiracies do happen but they usually involve very small groups of people who trade benefits for one another. Why would someone who can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars over their medical career start following some kind of "medical jihad?"

[graciegirl]

Well, his Facebook page shows quite clearly an interest in beheadings by terrorists, in this picture containing this text:

"Thus do we find the clear precedent that explains the peculiar penchant of Islamic terrorists to behead their victims: it is merely another precedent bestowed by their <<Prophet>>:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=671490359575627&set=pb.100001440066246.-2207520000.1411773787.&type=3&theater

In the pictures there also two of Bin Laden, and his "Muslim sisters" dressed and armed like ISIS fighters, and many more to page thru with left and right arrows.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=669077316483598&set=pb.100001440066246.-2207520000.1411773787.&type=3&theater


I wonder why the connection wasn't mentioned and who directs what IS mentioned on National news???

[shcisamax]

The responses on here are the scary part. More common sense and logic. Criminals often put their plans on Facebook. What is more logical that some man upset about something at his job filled with rage for some reason became violent or some vast conspiracy involving Imans?

Conspiracies do happen but they usually involve very small groups of people who trade benefits for one another. Why would someone who can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars over their medical career start following some kind of "medical jihad?"

Yes, I don't really see it happening that way. This OK man, not the best of character to begin with, was fired and lost it. His facebook tells the story of someone attracted to the violence of terrorism. But I don't think he was a terrorist. Perhaps, though, disenfranchised and rogue individuals make for plum recruits.

[sunnyatlast]

m

His facebook page tells the tale! I read an article this weekend that some imams are telling Muslim doctors in America it is their duty to perform "medical jihad"! Very chilling as I personally have two Muslim doctors!

The responses on here are the scary part. More common sense and logic. Criminals often put their plans on Facebook. What is more logical that some man upset about something at his job filled with rage for some reason became violent or some vast conspiracy involving Imans?

Conspiracies do happen but they usually involve very small groups of people who trade benefits for one another. Why would someone who can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars over their medical career start following some kind of "medical jihad?"

That's a good question:

Q: Why WOULD Nadal Hasan, M.D. and psychiatrist at Walter Reed--where presidents get their healthcare--"who can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars over his medical career, start following some kind of 'medical jihad'?"

A: Because he's a jihadi terrorist!

And "The responses here are the scary part." Oh really?? So now posters on here are being judged as equally dangerous as a jihadist beheader?? :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear:

We're in more trouble than we thought.
-------------
NPR:
"When a group of key officials gathered in the spring of 2008 for their monthly meeting in a Bethesda, Md., office, one of the leading — and most perplexing — items on their agenda was: What should we do about Hasan?

Hasan had been a trouble spot on officials' radar since he started training at Walter Reed, six years earlier. Several officials confirm that supervisors had repeatedly given him poor evaluations and warned him that he was doing substandard work.

Both fellow students and faculty were deeply troubled by Hasan's behavior — which they variously called disconnected, aloof, paranoid, belligerent, and schizoid. The officials say he antagonized some students and faculty by espousing what they perceived to be extremist Islamic views. His supervisors at Walter Reed had even reprimanded him for telling at least one patient that "Islam can save your soul."…..

….One official involved in the conversations had reportedly told colleagues that he worried that if Hasan deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, he might leak secret military information to Islamic extremists. Another official reportedly wondered aloud to colleagues whether Hasan might be capable of committing fratricide, like the Muslim U.S. Army sergeant who, in 2003, killed two fellow soldiers and injured 14 others by setting off grenades at a base in Kuwait…..

…..Second, some of Hasan's supervisors and instructors had told colleagues that they repeatedly bent over backward to support and encourage him, because they didn't have clear evidence that he was unstable, and they worried they might be "discriminating" against Hasan because of his seemingly extremist Islamic beliefs..."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120313570

[Patty55]

Whoa, I hope someone is keeping an eye on Dr. Oz.

[mgjim]

Whoa, I hope someone is keeping an eye on Dr. Oz.

Like

[Schaumburger]

Have they determined yet if he is part of a group?

How about the Chicago airport thing? Anyone (other than me)think there might be more to that story?

The contract employee who started a fire in the basement of the FAA facility in Aurora, IL (suburb of Chicago) left a note for his family. Apparently he was attempting to commit suicide according to the contents of the note. He was supposedly upset because he was going to be transferred to Hawaii. According to one of his Naperville, IL neighbors interviewed on a Chicago TV station Friday night, he seemed totally normal.

According to a Chicago TV station I watched last night, he faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted.

[Taltarzac725]

Whoa, I hope someone is keeping an eye on Dr. Oz.

Good post. I wish I had tried a funny approach.

[Taltarzac725]

The contract employee who started a fire in the basement of the FAA facility in Aurora, IL (suburb of Chicago) left a note for his family. Apparently he was attempting to commit suicide according to the contents of the note. He was supposedly upset because he was going to be transferred to Hawaii. According to one of his Naperville, IL neighbors interviewed on a Chicago TV station Friday night, he seemed totally normal.

According to a Chicago TV station I watched last night, he faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted.

Good. A common sense and logical post.

One person is also putting words into my posts I never said about these posters as being as dangerous as the news covered criminals. I never said anything remotely like that.

That's a good question:

Q: Why WOULD Nadal Hasan, M.D. and psychiatrist at Walter Reed--where presidents get their healthcare--"who can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars over his medical career, start following some kind of 'medical jihad'?"

A: Because he's a jihadi terrorist!

And "The responses here are the scary part." Oh really?? So now posters on here are being judged as equally dangerous as a jihadist beheader?? :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear:

We're in more trouble than we thought.
-------------
NPR:
"When a group of key officials gathered in the spring of 2008 for their monthly meeting in a Bethesda, Md., office, one of the leading — and most perplexing — items on their agenda was: What should we do about Hasan?

Hasan had been a trouble spot on officials' radar since he started training at Walter Reed, six years earlier. Several officials confirm that supervisors had repeatedly given him poor evaluations and warned him that he was doing substandard work.

Both fellow students and faculty were deeply troubled by Hasan's behavior — which they variously called disconnected, aloof, paranoid, belligerent, and schizoid. The officials say he antagonized some students and faculty by espousing what they perceived to be extremist Islamic views. His supervisors at Walter Reed had even reprimanded him for telling at least one patient that "Islam can save your soul."…..

….One official involved in the conversations had reportedly told colleagues that he worried that if Hasan deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, he might leak secret military information to Islamic extremists. Another official reportedly wondered aloud to colleagues whether Hasan might be capable of committing fratricide, like the Muslim U.S. Army sergeant who, in 2003, killed two fellow soldiers and injured 14 others by setting off grenades at a base in Kuwait…..

…..Second, some of Hasan's supervisors and instructors had told colleagues that they repeatedly bent over backward to support and encourage him, because they didn't have clear evidence that he was unstable, and they worried they might be "discriminating" against Hasan because of his seemingly extremist Islamic beliefs..."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120313570

[Taltarzac725]

Yes, I don't really see it happening that way. This OK man, not the best of character to begin with, was fired and lost it. His facebook tells the story of someone attracted to the violence of terrorism. But I don't think he was a terrorist. Perhaps, though, disenfranchised and rogue individuals make for plum recruits.

They probably do. But, this man just looks like someone who went off on fellow employees and was using the excuse of the season to do so. If free Cuba had been in season, he would have used that.

[Sophie11]

2 Thessalonians 10 ►

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[graciegirl]

The responses on here are the scary part. More common sense and logic. Criminals often put their plans on Facebook. What is more logical that some man upset about something at his job filled with rage for some reason became violent or some vast conspiracy involving Imans?

Conspiracies do happen but they usually involve very small groups of people who trade benefits for one another. Why would someone who can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars over their medical career start following some kind of "medical jihad?"

He may not have been part of an organized group directing him to kill non believers, but he didn't shoot this woman, he beheaded her. He was responding to something unusual. The Law enforcement there say that Moore, OK is not used to murders, they may have one a year and they have never had any one beheaded. He had tried to convert his co-workers to Islam. He was fired. He was mad. He considered himself to be righteously mad.
.

.

[Cisco Kid]

A little more info comes out

Oklahoma Beheader Linked to Al Qaeda Leader Awlaki, Boston Bomber's Mosque - Houston Daily Digest (http://houston.thedailydigest.org/2014/09/27/oklahoma-beheader-linked-to-al-qaeda-leader-awlaki-boston-bombers-mosque/)

[redwitch]

Personally, I think Tal is right. If the issues of today were around some other cause and murders had been in the name of that cause, he would have killed in that manner. He just happened to latch on to a cause that scares the heck out of most sane people.

[graciegirl]

Personally, I think Tal is right. If the issues of today were around some other cause and murders had been in the name of that cause, he would have killed in that manner. He just happened to latch on to a cause that scares the heck out of most sane people.

I think that your philosophy of religious tolerance is good and fair and kind. But this issue is another animal entirely.

I believe that many gentle and fair people will be forced to look at this issue in a different light. I am sad for that.

We all need to be aware of our surroundings and especially if we see something unusual. It is not politically correct, according to some to profile, but in this issue, we have to think differently.

[sunnyatlast]

Though this butcher may not have been fully linked to the terrorist network, his facebook pictures by the dozens clearly show he aspired to be one of them.

So with this, he not only passed the gang initiation test but wins the prize for being the first to behead a defenseless American in the style of ISIS, on our own soil no less. He's a total hero to them now.

[TexaninVA]

Though this butcher may not have been fully linked to the terrorist network, his facebook pictures by the dozens clearly show he aspired to be one of them.

So with this, he not only passed the gang initiation test but wins the prize for being the first to behead a defenseless American in the style of ISIS, on our own soil no less. He's a total hero to them now.

Maybe it's now time to state the obvious .... Islam is NOT compatible with American values. Yes, there are plenty of peaceful Muslims etc but there are too many who ideologically, and silently, side with the enemy. The guy in Oklahoma was probably a wacko case, but it still illustrates the point.

For starters, we should begin to find legal ways to impede or eliminate Muslims immigrating into the US. Otherwise, we are creating an even bigger, and more dangerous, threat to our kids and grandkids.

[sunnyatlast]

Maybe it's now time to state the obvious .... Islam is NOT compatible with American values. Yes, there are plenty of peaceful Muslims etc but there are too many who ideologically, and silently, side with the enemy. The guy in Oklahoma was probably a wacko case, but it still illustrates the point.

For starters, we should begin to find legal ways to impede or eliminate Muslims immigrating into the US. Otherwise, we are creating an even bigger, and more dangerous, threat to our kids and grandkids.

Well "finding legal ways to impede or illuminate Muslims immigrating into the US" is not going to happen, given our Constitution and laws.

But if they wanted to, the Justice Department could have started on September 12, 2001, to find and deport ALL who have stayed here beyond their expired visas, and all who've entered the U.S. illegally and embedded themselves a long time ago in anonymity within society.

If they wanted to.

[Taltarzac725]

Maybe it's now time to state the obvious .... Islam is NOT compatible with American values. Yes, there are plenty of peaceful Muslims etc but there are too many who ideologically, and silently, side with the enemy. The guy in Oklahoma was probably a wacko case, but it still illustrates the point.

For starters, we should begin to find legal ways to impede or eliminate Muslims immigrating into the US. Otherwise, we are creating an even bigger, and more dangerous, threat to our kids and grandkids.

List of American Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims)

Oz has to go! Along with Ali and Tyson. http://www.doctoroz.com/

[graciegirl]

For the last twenty years before we moved here full time we lived with a large and beautiful mosque in our neighborhood and many people took it upon themselves to go there and ask questions. Many Muslims lived among us.

There are those who practice their faith and those who don't. Usually practicing Muslims males have beards and women covered their hair and arms and legs.

Some Jews I know are descendants of those who kept Kosher. Same with Christians and their lifestyles. What we call ourselves is frequently misleading.

[tucson]

Does anyone know the history of Islam?

[TexaninVA]

Well "finding legal ways to impede or illuminate Muslims immigrating into the US" is not going to happen, given our Constitution and laws.

But if they wanted to, the Justice Department could have started on September 12, 2001, to find and deport ALL who have stayed here beyond their expired visas, and all who've entered the U.S. illegally and embedded themselves a long time ago in anonymity within society.

If they wanted to.


I agree with your comment about deportation. It's a start. The reason no one has "wanted to" is because they're afraid of even saying it ... PC and all.

I believe there are likely legal ways to curtail immigration from Muslim nations, but have not yet taken the time to research it. Maybe reduce the quotas? I know that immigration was curtailed for 40 some odd years in the early part of the 20th century to let immigrants assimilate. That may be a good idea overall as well. Right now, too many immigrants, Muslim and otherwise, simply don't assimilate in the US culture. Which then begs the question ... why even bother to come here?

[Taltarzac725]

Does anyone know the history of Islam?

It is very bloody, but then so are pretty much those of every other major religion when the Golden Rule gets trampled usually for various people and their quests for power, territory, glory, money, women, etc.

ISIS is just a perversion of some of the tenets of the Muslim religion.

One thing that Graciegirl's posts kind of alerted me to. If you suspect a terrorist on some bus, plane, etc. he/she probably will be trying to blend in so as not to get caught quickly. That would mean not in traditional Muslim garb.

What is frightening is that these ISIS recruits can blend in because many of them are people you would walk past without a glance.

[TexaninVA]

Does anyone know the history of Islam?

Yes, by and large and especially when compared to other religions, Islam has a history of violence. Muhammad was a warrior (and a very good one I might add) while Christ was a pacifist. That tells you a lot in its own right

[TexaninVA]

It is very bloody, but then so are pretty much those of every other major religion when the Golden Rule gets trampled usually for various people and their quests for power, territory, glory, money, women, etc.

That is simply not true. While all religions have had imperfections and followers with their failings, there is a glaringly obvious difference in the level of aggression and violence between Islam and other major religions.

Do you really deny that?

[kittygilchrist]

It will be more than interesting to see how the various Media Outlets " position " this heinous act . I note that the FBI has already labeled it as " Workplace Violence ".
I believe this was the same label which they ascribed to the Islamist who committed the shootings at as I recall Ft. Hood while he was a member of our Military .
In my book it is another act of Islamist Terrorism and nothing less .

:agree:
Good to see you Jim!

[Taltarzac725]

That is simply not true. While all religions have had imperfections and followers with their failings, there is a glaringly obvious difference in the level of aggression and violence between Islam and other major religions.

Do you really deny that?

Just look at the reigns of many Christian kings-- Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, Elizabeth facing the Spanish Armada.

I would bet that many Germans in WWII so there adopting the Third Reich as supported by God.

There are very violent sects in Islam.There are also very violent sects in Christianity.

[TexaninVA]

List of American Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims)

Oz has to go! Along with Ali and Tyson. The Dr. Oz Show | The Dr. Oz Show (http://www.doctoroz.com/)


Yes, a very cute comment. But, I'm at that point where I no longer care about being PC here.

If we let radical Islam grow in the US, it will be an even bigger problem. It's already a problem, and until we can at least acknowledge it's a problem, it will never be solved.

In a nutshell, the entire strategy of the Muslim Brotherhood is to weaken Western democracies from within by exploiting our live/let live culture etc. The ultimate objective is to impose Sharia law. That's many years away, but until we at least face up to reality, we put ourselves at longer term risk.

[tucson]

Yes, by and large and especially when compared to other religions, Islam has a history of violence. Muhammad was a warrior (and a very good one I might add) while Christ was a pacifist. That tells you a lot in its own right

Yes, Muhammad also went into many trances as a child (his nurse said he was demon-possessed. He was given away by his mother to a nurse to care for him. He had no formal education and was illiterate.(I found this and more out from a book on Islam,Religion of peace or War? It is very eye-opening and I urge everyone to read it.

[Taltarzac725]

Yes, a very cute comment. But, I'm at that point where I no longer care about being PC here.

If we let radical Islam grow in the US, it will be an even bigger problem. It's already a problem, and until we can at least acknowledge it's a problem, it will never be solved.

In a nutshell, the entire strategy of the Muslim Brotherhood is to weaken Western democracies from within by exploiting our live/let live culture etc. The ultimate objective is to impose Sharia law. That's many years away, but until we at least face up to reality, we put ourselves at longer term risk.

Maybe we should bring back internment camps. That worked so well with the Japanese-Americans.

[TexaninVA]

Just look at the reigns of many Christian kings-- Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, Elizabeth facing the Spanish Armada.

I would bet that many Germans in WWII so there adopting the Third Reich as supported by God.

There are very violent sects in Islam.There are also very violent sects in Christianity.

You're largely quoting the history of warfare, which is different from the radical teachings / tendency towards violence in major religions -- which is obvious to all who look at it.

I imagine the violent sects in contemporary Christianity that you're saying compare to radical Islam are Irish nuns .. well know terrorist bombers? Or perhaps Little Sisters of the Poor who, as we see from all the headlines, often indulge in beheadings?

[Taltarzac725]

:agree:
Good to see you Jim!

This beheading by a person with a knife was at a work place and simply an act of some mentally deranged person using what he saw on TV or his computer as a way of murdering someone. He just grabbed the most convenient weapon and went after whomever was in his path.

The Ft. Hood incident probably does fit in the category of a terrorist attack fueled by Islamic jihad ideas.

[Taltarzac725]

You're largely quoting the history of warfare, which is different from the radical teachings / tendency towards violence in major religions -- which is obvious to all who look at it.

I imagine the violent sects in contemporary Christianity that you're saying compare to radical Islam are Irish nuns .. well know terrorist bombers? Or perhaps Little Sisters of the Poor who, as we see from all the headlines, often indulge in beheadings?

Maybe you should Google fundamental religion and violence.

[TexaninVA]

Maybe we should bring back internment camps. That worked so well with the Japanese-Americans.

You can reply with as much attempted ridicule and sarcasm as you wish ... but I've already told you where I stand, and I just don't care. I've had it with the PC that paralyzes us whenever the topic of Islam comes up.

And it's clear where you stand ... you see no problem with letting Islam grow and expand in the US. Hope your kids agree.

[Taltarzac725]

You can reply with as much attempted ridicule and sarcasm as you wish ... but I've already told you where I stand, and I just don't care. I've had it with the PC that paralyzes us whenever the topic of Islam comes up.

And it's clear where you stand ... you see no problem with letting Islam grow and expand in the US. Hope your kids agree.

I never said that. DO NOT put words in my mouth. And, I have not used ANY ridicule or sarcasm in my posts. YOU are putting it there. I am trying to get people to actually research before making emotional outbursts that just make the whole problems worse.

I have no problem with law-abided Muslim woman and men following their faith in the US. I have a very serious problem with terrorists using religion for whatever cause they might have from the IRA, abortion clinic bombing religious fanatics, cult followers like those of Jim Jones, to some militias bombing federal buildings for some warped idea of patriotism.

[kittygilchrist]

All Muslim terrorists are mentally deranged. I am grateful that many countries in the world are waking up, And especially grateful that the USA finally took action.

I started two threads in July about the mess the world was in, and no one gave a response that indicated they were alert or aware of what was going on in the world other than rags 123.

On sept. 7, I stood praying for action to be taken against evil, on the north border of Israel overlooking Syria, where I could hear, feel, see and smell bombing in Quneitra, syria.

Satanically inspired evil has been given access to the USA, and its roots were established, while we were in a blind stupor.

Watch and pray.

[TexaninVA]

Maybe you should Google fundamental religion and violence.

Maybe you should expand your search ...

--
Overall Tone of the Two Religions

Most Muslims are exceptionally gracious and peace-loving people. And Islam has elements of peacefulness in it. For example, Muslims point to Sura 2:256 which claims there is no compulsion in religion (compulsion), even though this passage is often interpreted in Islamic nations to mean tat "there is no competition in religion" within their borders. Another passage is Sura 29:46 which says not to dispute with People of the Book (Jews and Christians) unless they do wrong. Also, Sura 41:34 instructs that one should respond to evil with doing good deeds to the evil doer.

However, anyone who wants to commit violence has perfect justification for doing so from the Quran. While violence in the Quran is sometimes for self-defense; at other times it is open-ended.

Many passages in the Quran exhort Muslims to hate or kill or terrorize infidels (non-Muslims) wherever they find them. See Suras 2:190-193, 2:216, 2:244, 3:56, 3:151, 4:56, 4:74, 4:76, 4:89, 4:91, 4:95, 4:104, 5:51, 5:32-38, 7:96-99, 8:12-15, 8:39, 8:57-60, 8:65-67, 9:5, 9:14, 9:20-30, 9:38-41, 9:73, 9:88, 9:111, 9:123, 17:16, 18:65-81, 21:44, 22:18-22, 25:52, 33:60-62, 47:3-4, 47:35, 48:16-17, 48:29, 61:4, and 66:8-12. (Note: English translators of the Quran sometimes try to soften the true Arabic meaning of some of these passages. For example, to "fight" really means to kill in Arabic.) There are various versions of the Quran online so you can look these passages up.

There are dozens of violent prescriptive statements like those above in the Quran. Osama bin Laden in the now famous videotape discovered in Afghanistan in late 2001 is quoted as saying, "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad." These words echo language in the Quran itself. Such calls to violence are not mere distortions of the Quran by extreme radicals who twist the Quran for their violent ends; violence is an integral part of Islam. Violence is Muslim doctrine. Just as many Christians are ignorant of what is actually in the Bible, many Muslims are not aware of such passages in the Quran.

Unbelievers in Islam receive persistent chastisement in the Quran. They are described as the "worst beasts in God's sight" (Sura 8:7). Muslims are instructed not to obey unbelievers (Sura 33:1) nor to make friends with them (Suras 58:14-15, 60:1, and 60:13). These commands open up numerous questions about the duty of Muslims who live in non-Muslim countries or work for a non-Muslim boss. Here is a link to a list of such passages: Unbelievers.

After the attempted attack by Umar Farouk Abdulmatallab the so-called "Christmas Day (2009) Underwear Bomber" several news outlets asked how a nice Muslim boy from a wealthy family could have perpetrated such an attack. Like all Islamic terrorists, the answer comes in the above passages right out of the Quran. Here is how Abdulmutallab describes the obligation of every Muslim:

"In late 2009, in fulfillment of a religious obligation, I decided to participate in jihad against the United States. The Koran obliges every able Muslim to participate in jihad and fight in the way of Allah, those who fight you, and kill them wherever you find them." (See Islam Pleads Guilty.)

But the Quran is not the only basis for violence in Islam. The example of Muhammad himself laid the foundation for violence via his deeds and commands, which are found in the hadiths. Eleven percent of the pages of the Bukhari Hadiths mention Holy War (jihad). Military jihad is a traditional and authentic part of Islam. (See Muhammad's Own Words.)

[TexaninVA]

I never said that. DO NOT put words in my mouth. And, I have not used ANY ridicule or sarcasm in my posts. YOU are putting it there. I am trying to get people to actually research before making emotional outbursts that just make the whole problems worse.

I have no problem with law-abided Muslim woman and men following their faith in the US. I have a very serious problem with terrorists using religion for whatever cause they might have from the IRA, abortion clinic bombing religious fanatics, cult followers like those of Jim Jones, to some militias bombing federal buildings for some warped idea of patriotism.

Easy there ... no shouting. Let's try this again.

I am not indulging in an emotional outburst. All I'm asking you to do now is not equate the propensity towards violence between the two religions. They are hugely different. One can always find an exception from which to extrapolate but anyone following the news the last 15 years or so can readily tell we have a problem with radical Islam. But don't wrap abortion clinic bombers in with truly bloodthirsty animal likes ISIS. Plus there's an issue of scale and how often that occurs. That comparison is actually more emotional than helpful IMHO.

Peaceful Muslims are welcome but, my issue with them is ... why are none of them standing up and speaking out? They would be a whole lot more welcome if they would take a stand. But I just don't see it on any scale.

[TexaninVA]

This beheading by a person with a knife was at a work place and simply an act of some mentally deranged person using what he saw on TV or his computer as a way of murdering someone. He just grabbed the most convenient weapon and went after whoever was in his path.

The Ft. Hood incident probably does fit in the category of a terrorist attack fueled by Islamic jihad ideas.

I agree the guy yesterday was a wacko who used Islam mainly because it's been in the news.

However, to me, the Ft Hood incident was a screamingly obvious case of a terror attack, not "probably."

[Taltarzac725]

American Muslims in the United States | Teaching Tolerance (http://www.tolerance.org/publication/american-muslims-united-states)

Muslims have been speaking up against violence AND there are probably Muslims bombing ISIS targets as I write this.

I would bet some of the US military personnel taking part on the attacks on ISIS are Muslims.

[Chi-Town]

American Muslims in the United States | Teaching Tolerance (http://www.tolerance.org/publication/american-muslims-united-states)

Muslims have been speaking up against violence AND there are probably Muslims bombing ISIS targets as I write this.
Tal, do you ever feel "the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes"? Thank you George Gobel for that quote.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efHVcgUajtA

I feel that you have presented yourself very well and appreciate your insight.

[TexaninVA]

American Muslims in the United States | Teaching Tolerance (http://www.tolerance.org/publication/american-muslims-united-states)

Muslims have been speaking up against violence AND there are probably Muslims bombing ISIS targets as I write this.

I would bet some of the US military personnel taking part on the attacks on ISIS are Muslims.

Yes, some have spoken up. But my point is not that many, nor anywhere near as many as needed.

Yes, there are many good Muslims in the US military and especially needed with translations/linguists etc. For example (one of many) our success against the Taliban in Oct 2001 (CIA/SOF) would not have been possible without their help.

But, listen carefully .... I am not saying all Muslims are "bad." I am saying that, in general, the basic tenets of Islam are significantly more inclined towards violence than any other major contemporary religion.

In addition, given that radicals in any organization often tend to crowed out the "middle of the roaders" that significant immigration levels of Muslims will inevitably increase the problem. Do you really disagree with that?

[rubicon]

I have spoken of this before . I lived in a suburb west of Minneapolis and found after moving there that many of the professional doctors lawyers engineers were Egyptian, Indian, Pakistians etc. As professionals they assimilated quite well. the Egyptian woman across he street was the epitome of Americanism and was an unusually beautiful creature.

In Minneapolis and the surround area many of the Somoli were rebellious and created trouble for local patrons police ,etc. and of course many wer recruited to fight with extremist.

[Taltarzac725]

Yes, some have spoken up. But my point is not that many, nor anywhere near as many as needed.

Yes, there are many good Muslims in the US military and especially needed with translations/linguists etc. For example (one of many) our success against the Taliban in Oct 2001 (CIA/SOF) would not have been possible without their help.

But, listen carefully .... I am not saying all Muslims are "bad." I am saying that, in general, the basic tenets of Islam are significantly more inclined towards violence than any other major contemporary religion.

In addition, given that radicals in any organization often tend to crowed out the "middle of the roaders" that significant immigration levels of Muslims will inevitably increase the problem. Do you really disagree with that?

A better policy might be more stringent examinations of immigrants from certain countries so as to winnow the asylum seekers from the potential terrorists. We should be taking lessons from the Israelis in this regard as they have a very long history of trying to keep out potential terrorists from their changing borders.

[Taltarzac725]

Tal, do you ever feel "the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes"? Thank you George Gobel for that quote.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efHVcgUajtA

I feel that you have presented yourself very well and appreciate your insight.

Thanks for that clip. I needed that.

[ejp52]

The radical Muslim will try to behead you, a moderate Muslim will hold your feet!

[Bogie Shooter]

Not funny.........

[gomoho]

I agree the guy yesterday was a wacko who used Islam mainly because it's been in the news.

However, to me, the Ft Hood incident was a screamingly obvious case of a terror attack, not "probably."

How do you explain all the Jihad garbage on his facebook page and others that work with him saying he was trying to convert them to Islam. We need to see these terrorists for what they really are and acknowledge the problem in our country. If we continue to call a duck a goose we will never be able to recognize the enemy we are trying to defeat.

[TexaninVA]

How do you explain all the Jihad garbage on his facebook page and others that work with him saying he was trying to convert them to Islam. We need to see these terrorists for what they really are and acknowledge the problem in our country. If we continue to call a duck a goose we will never be able to recognize the enemy we are trying to defeat.


Well, first of all, if you've read any of my previous posts in this thread, you should recognize that acknowledging the problem with Islam's violent tendencies (ie calling a duck a duck) was precisely one of my points. I could not agree more. Suggest you go back and reread everything starting at the beginning.

However, I do think the guy in OK was most likely a pyscho case which was then exacerbated by the Islamic thing, based on what I know about it.

[graciegirl]

Though this butcher may not have been fully linked to the terrorist network, his facebook pictures by the dozens clearly show he aspired to be one of them.

So with this, he not only passed the gang initiation test but wins the prize for being the first to behead a defenseless American in the style of ISIS, on our own soil no less. He's a total hero to them now.

oklahoma beheading - Bing Videos (http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=oklahoma+beheading&FORM=VIRE4#view=detail&mid=4266903919983C406BB34266903919983C406BB3)

[wendyquat]

Yes, some have spoken up. But my point is not that many, nor anywhere near as many as needed.

Yes, there are many good Muslims in the US military and especially needed with translations/linguists etc. For example (one of many) our success against the Taliban in Oct 2001 (CIA/SOF) would not have been possible without their help.

But, listen carefully .... I am not saying all Muslims are "bad." I am saying that, in general, the basic tenets of Islam are significantly more inclined towards violence than any other major contemporary religion.

In addition, given that radicals in any organization often tend to crowed out the "middle of the roaders" that significant immigration levels of Muslims will inevitably increase the problem. Do you really disagree with that?

Not just immigration! They average 8 offspring to our 1. You do the math!

[Sophie11]

Can Muslims be good Americans? *****


This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam. (Quran,2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him. (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and 'good' Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand!

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.

Please don't delete this until you send it on.

[wendyquat]

Can Muslims be good Americans? *****


This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam. (Quran,2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him. (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and 'good' Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand!

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.

Please don't delete this until you send it on.

Sadly, I have to agree with you! It is further evidenced by UAEs female fighter pilot, Mariam Al Mansouri whose own family disowned her for dropping bombs on ISIS and states that they support ISIS!

After a police news conference in Oklahoma a large group of Muslims surrounded the police and chanted Praises to Allah!

HELLO!

[Schaumburger]

An observation from someone who is still in the workforce...I have several Muslim coworkers (they are engineers) that I have to work with on a daily basis. If I don't treat them with the same respect and cooperation that I have for non-Muslim coworkers, I could lose my job.

[Taltarzac725]

An observation from someone who is still in the workforce...I have several Muslim coworkers (they are engineers) that I have to work with on a daily basis. If I don't treat them with the same respect and cooperation that I have for non-Muslim coworkers, I could lose my job.

I hope you will look at people based on their individual behaviors and not on whatever the media tells you about some group. I read that attack on Muslims with a bunch of over-generalizations and found it appalling in its ignorance.

I had a good friend at the University of Denver for the University of Mosul Library Mahmood Jergis Mohammad who unfortunately was taken over by the generalizations told to him about us Americans when he got back to Iraq. There was also the Iran-Iraq War going on at full swing back around then so he was expected to fight and his brother was some kind of high ranking officer in Saddam Hussein's army. While my friend was in the US, he was an intelligent, kind, and sophisticated person who happened to be a Muslim. He got taken into the same hate that fuels many wars which is based on sticking individuals into generalizations. I had tried to reason with him through various letters about his hatred towards the West after he got back to Iraq, but found it rather useless as an endeavour and just stopped writing him.

I had met about six other Muslims from different countries while at the University of Denver and all were very different in outlook about the West. None of them though unlike Mahmood were seeing things from probably having to face a battlefield at some point in their lives.

ISIS is stirring up a lot of hatred and fear in Muslim/Arab countries based on the ignorance and stupidity they are selling about us. I do not think we should be adding to these same flames but spreading over-generalizations about Muslims/Arabs.

[Sophie11]

GOD uses evil to make good!

Today is sunday and our Christian churches will be full! WE MUST GET ON OUR KNEES AND WORSHIP GOD THE FATHER AND HIS SON! People you have to come back and love and honor him! There is only one way to win a religious battle and it is on your knees!

How many Christian churches are in the town you are from? How many are in TV?

1 Timothy 2:1-2
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. -

One must Go back to the truth! Jesus is the way, the truth and the life
(light) - Do not change the WORD! Our WORD is love and compassion! If the WORD hurts you there is something YOU must change!
Jesus is the WORD made flesh - The WORD will be forever and ever TRUE!

[Taltarzac725]

The American Muslim (TAM) (http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/can_a_good_christian_be_a_good_american/0016805)

This is a counter to that anti-Muslim e-mail making the rounds since 2006.

[Walter123]

[QUOTE=Sophie11;944964]GOD uses evil to make good!



If the WORD hurts you there is something YOU must change!


Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but words will never hurt me!

[tucson]

Can Muslims be good Americans? *****


This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam. (Quran,2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him. (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and 'good' Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand!

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.

Please don't delete this until you send it on.



ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT ! » America Is Going Muslim (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/01/01/america-is-going-muslim)

[redwitch]

Tal, hope many read the link you provided re TAM. The comments made there about the Koran are much more in line with the Koran that I have read and tried to understand.

To me, the biggest fear is that ISIL and it's ilk seems to be first killing moderate Muslims, then going after other religions. How can the Middle East ever recover if there are no moderates to speak out about the defilement of Allah, the Koran and Islam?

The beheadings are grotesque. They serve to instill fear but otherwise serve no real purpose. The evil of ISIL is the destruction of its own people, the willingness to inflict pain and suffering on innocents. It is a mob rule.

Personally, the Khorasan Group frightens me far more. They are much more organized, experienced in true terrorist actions and as hate-filled as ISIL and I have no doubt that they will find away to attack America again in the near future. If someone is determined to inflict harm on another and willing to die to inflict such harm, there is little that can be done to stop them without a lot of luck -- ask any Secret Service agent protecting a U.S. president.

[graciegirl]

The American Muslim (TAM) (http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/can_a_good_christian_be_a_good_american/0016805)

This is a counter to that anti-Muslim e-mail making the rounds since 2006.


I know you mean well, and I know on the face of it that many who read this forum think I make too much of this, but Tal if you read this carefully, there are many evasive answers.

I hear the resounding silence by the Muslim communities in this country following the Boston Bombing. The only thing I heard consistently was the protest against anti-Muslim feeling, not the "we will not accept this kind of behavior" that I wanted to hear.

This is a picture of the Mosque near our home where we lived for the twenty years prior to moving here.

[Taltarzac725]

I know you mean well, and I know on the face of it that many who read this forum think I make too much of this, but Tal if you read this carefully, there are many evasive answers.

I hear the resounding silence by the Muslim communities in this country following the Boston Bombing. The only thing I heard consistently was the protest against anti-Muslim feeling, not the "we will not accept this kind of behavior" that I wanted to hear.

This is a picture of the Mosque near our home where we lived for the twenty years prior to moving here.

Poor Martin's Almanac: Can a Good Muslim be a Good American? (A Rebuttal) (http://www.poormartin.com/2007/06/can-good-muslim-be-good-american.html)

Do some research Graciegirl. And I recall a lot of voices of many religions made against the Boston Bombers who were/are Chechen-Americans if I remember correctly. That is sort of attacking Christians for the Oklahoma City bombings which had next to nothing to do with religion.

[Sophie11]

had .gov.memories come in and not let me move about.
Do I still have freedom of religion?
If someone generalizes about my Christian religion and I feel it is wrong - why would I not say why it is wrong? Why attach my computer?
My GOD is of truth! One truth is for sure at this point they can not arrest you for sharing your religion - what ever it may be. Can you imagine the trial - "and you said you love the lord your GOD with all your heart"

Some Bible scripture came to mind - those who try to save there life are the ones who will lose their life.

[graciegirl]

poor martin's almanac: Can a good muslim be a good american? (a rebuttal) (http://www.poormartin.com/2007/06/can-good-muslim-be-good-american.html)

do some research graciegirl. And i recall a lot of voices of many religions made against the boston bombing which was made by chechen-americans if i remember correctly. That is sort of attacking christians for the oklahoma city bombings which had next to nothing to do with religion.

What??????

WHY do you think those two brothers bombed the Marathon? What happened to the older brother in the year or so before he killed four people who were former friends and blew limbs off a lot of innocent people and killed a grandchild of a villager?

He didn't become a Christian extremist or a Jewish extremist or a Buddhist extremist.

[Taltarzac725]

[/COLOR]What??????

WHY do you think those two brothers bombed the Marathon? What happened to the older brother in the year or so before he killed four people who were former friends and blew limbs off a lot of innocent people and killed a grandchild of a villager?

He didn't become a Christian extremist or a Jewish extremist or a Buddhist extremist.

The Boston Bombers were acting on hate generated from the war in Chechnya, Russia where they grew up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhokhar_and_Tamerlan_Tsarnaev They did use their Muslim religion as an excuse to harm others as many have done through history. Just about every religion can cloak violence of some sort.

ISIS is a perversion of the Muslim/Islamic religion as a lot of leaders have pointed out. http://rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-islamic-state/

[billethkid]

there are many words that can describe the gruesome deeds these folks who call themselves Muslims....who state why the need to kill Americans/Christians....however when all gets said and done the facts of the matter/incident are that a Muslim fanatic (professed or otherwise) has carried out their intent to kill Americans/Christians.

They are what they are.....fanatical Muslim terrorists intent on killing us.
No rationalization of their position or why or anythig else changes those facts.

[Taltarzac725]

there are many words that can describe the gruesome deeds these folks who call themselves Muslims....who state why the need to kill Americans/Christians....however when all gets said and done the facts of the matter/incident are that a Muslim fanatic (professed or otherwise) has carried out their intent to kill Americans/Christians.

They are what they are.....fanatical Muslim terrorists intent on killing us.
No rationalization of their position or why or anythig else changes those facts.

That's true that these are fanatical Muslim terrorists BUT these men and women are acting with depraved minds brought about by whatever. They are basically criminals who use religion as a reason to kill. People should never judge an entire group of people on the actions of a murderous few.

And jihad probably to many US Muslim Americans in 2014 means something quite different from how it was used in the 600s. http://myjihad.org/about

[billethkid]

my comments are always and only intended for the individual fanatical terroist at the moment.

A negative comment about Muslims in general; their lack of condeming or speaking out against those individuals or organizations that represent their religion with murder and mayhem. Where is the outrage among the so called majority of Muslims?

[Taltarzac725]

my comments are always and only intended for the individual fanatical terroist at the moment.

A negative comment about Muslims in general; their lack of condeming or speaking out against those individuals or organizations that represent their religion with murder and mayhem. Where is the outrage among the so called majority of Muslims?

I posted a link to the outrage of a number of Muslim scholars to the actions of ISIS. You would find probably a huge number of more of these from Facebook sources. http://rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-islamic-state/ https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muslims-Against-ISIS/1444672609121662

[graciegirl]

I posted a link to the outrage of a number of Muslim scholars to the actions of ISIS. You would find probably a huge number of more of these from Facebook sources. http://rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-islamic-state/ https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muslims-Against-ISIS/1444672609121662


I had not heard of the news source that you linked above called RT.

It is a Russian news network.http://rt.com/

Further;About RT

RT is a global news channel broadcasting from Moscow and Washington studios. With a global reach of over 630 million people, or over 25% of all cable subscribers worldwide, RT news covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more. Our team of young news professionals has made RT the first news channel to break the 1 billion YouTube views benchmark.

[Taltarzac725]

I had not heard of the news source that you linked above called RT.

It is a Russian news network.http://rt.com/

Further;About RT

RT is a global news channel broadcasting from Moscow and Washington studios. With a global reach of over 630 million people, or over 25% of all cable subscribers worldwide, RT news covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more. Our team of young news professionals has made RT the first news channel to break the 1 billion YouTube views benchmark.

Another article about Muslims standing against ISIS.

The &lsquo;Islamic State&rsquo; and its brutal crimes betray Muslim world: Editorial | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2014/08/25/the_islamic_state_and_its_brutal_crimes_betray_mus lim_world_editorial.html)

http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/2014/08/for-immediate-release-canadian-council-of-imams-warns-canadian-muslims-about-isis-and-its-deviant-nature/

[Sophie11]

Do you really think the news for the USA on this RT should be - Police officer shot in Ferguson, two suspects at large? I think the big news for the world to see is the beheading of a person in the USA by a person of the muslim faith.

[Taltarzac725]

Do you really think the news for the USA on this RT should be - Police officer shot in Ferguson, two suspects at large? I think the big news for the world to see is the beheading of a person in the USA by a person of the muslim faith.

He was a prison convert to Islam. Probably not very long ago either. http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/27/us/oklahoma-beheading/index.html

[graciegirl]

Another article about Muslims standing against ISIS.

The &lsquo;Islamic State&rsquo; and its brutal crimes betray Muslim world: Editorial | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2014/08/25/the_islamic_state_and_its_brutal_crimes_betray_mus lim_world_editorial.html)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – CANADIAN COUNCIL OF IMAMS WARNS CANADIAN MUSLIMS ABOUT ISIS AND ITS (http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/2014/08/for-immediate-release-canadian-council-of-imams-warns-canadian-muslims-about-isis-and-its-deviant-nature/)

The first link above is written by an editorial writer..Not making me feel better.

The second one below, makes me feel a LOT better; Thank you Tal.


http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.co...eviant-nature/

Now please find me a similar American one.

[kittygilchrist]

TheReligionofPeace - About this Site (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm)

This site will not make us feel better, but it may make us more aware.

[TexaninVA]

Another article about Muslims standing against ISIS.

The &lsquo;Islamic State&rsquo; and its brutal crimes betray Muslim world: Editorial | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2014/08/25/the_islamic_state_and_its_brutal_crimes_betray_mus lim_world_editorial.html)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – CANADIAN COUNCIL OF IMAMS WARNS CANADIAN MUSLIMS ABOUT ISIS AND ITS (http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/2014/08/for-immediate-release-canadian-council-of-imams-warns-canadian-muslims-about-isis-and-its-deviant-nature/)

You keep pointing out isolated examples. While they are comforting, what is missing is an obvious groundswell of outrage from a LOT of presumably moderate Muslims. It simply has not happened yet ... and probably won't because most of them are afraid of the bloodthirsty types.

[TexaninVA]

Poor Martin's Almanac: Can a Good Muslim be a Good American? (A Rebuttal) (http://www.poormartin.com/2007/06/can-good-muslim-be-good-american.html)

Do some research Graciegirl. And I recall a lot of voices of many religions made against the Boston Bombers who were/are Chechen-Americans if I remember correctly. That is sort of attacking Christians for the Oklahoma City bombings which had next to nothing to do with religion.

Tal, again I say I think you are who needs to do the research. I mentioned that in an earlier post.

Let's try it this way. If you take a random sample of 5,000 Muslims and 5,000 Christians, do you honestly think the probability of finding a genuine terrorist or terrorist sympathized is equal in both populations?

The answer is obviously no. The reason for this is also obvious in that one religion, in modern times especially, has shown a much higher propensity for violence. That is a fact that no amount of wishful thinking can trump.

But, for whatever reason, you don't want to admit that. Probably an emotional thing or proclivity towards being fair which is commendable, but in this case inaccurate. As an earlier poster said, this results in us not being able to finally call a duck for what it is ... a duck.

[TexaninVA]

Not just immigration! They average 8 offspring to our 1. You do the math!

You make an excellent point. Conquest via the womb is actually an articulated long-term strategy of the Muslim Brotherhood, and part of their overall strategy to exploit the West’s liberal institutions from within to achieve victory … ie defined as a worldwide Caliphate. It’s a smart strategy too I might add because, as the saying goes, demography is destiny.

This is another reason why Muslim immigration needs to be legally curtailed or ideally eliminated as I argued in an earlier post. They do not assimilate by and large, and their faith is transnational. Thus, if we let large numbers of Muslim immigrants into the US, and they are producing many more babies as you correctly point out, we end up losing the country in 50-100 years. I don’t know what the exact math is, and while it’s not as bad as Europe, it’s a long time suicidal outcome for the USA as we all currently know it. Thus, the rational strategy on our part is to not let it happen.

It’s not complicated … it’s just takes courage to call a duck a duck, and then figure out what to do. But, there are many on this board and our country who, for whatever reason, simply refuse to call a duck a duck. I think a lot of it is fear, some of it is distaste for the country (ie not fair etc), and in other cases probably stems from a multicultural view of the world where all cultures are wonderful except the English-based Judeo-Christian culture called America we were all lucky enough to be born into.

[Sophie11]

We are losing our freedoms because of fear! We are still a free country and we have a constitution that shows we are! There are millions of Christians in America and unless you start speaking what is true we will lose our freedoms! We are millions of Christians living in America! When you hear something that is against our WORD you must stand firm with the way, the TRUTH and the life!

Start Calling A Duck A Duck!

[Taltarzac725]

Tal, again I say I think you are who needs to do the research. I mentioned that in an earlier post.

Let's try it this way. If you take a random sample of 5,000 Muslims and 5,000 Christians, do you honestly think the probability of finding a genuine terrorist or terrorist sympathized is equal in both populations?

The answer is obviously no. The reason for this is also obvious in that one religion, in modern times especially, has shown a much higher propensity for violence. That is a fact that no amount of wishful thinking can trump.

But, for whatever reason, you don't want to admit that. Probably an emotional thing or proclivity towards being fair which is commendable, but in this case inaccurate. As an earlier poster said, this results in us not being able to finally call a duck for what it is ... a duck.

Depends on where you are taking the example from? If it is near a hot spot with respect to violence like Ukraine, for instance, the numbers would be high for supporting terrorism as long as your side is winning. This would be either Christian or Muslim.

If you mean Iowa, say Des Moines, they might be quite close.

A community like Minneapolis with a very large number of parents who come from war torn countries like Somalia, you would probably be right as these countries are primarily Muslim.

The fact is many of the wars going on in 2014 are in Muslim countries not because of that religion but because of strife over the control of natural resources like oil, water and other commodities. Both sides use religion in propaganda efforts.

The old idea of a holy war or jihad is invoked by leaders who are in these wars but this has very little to do with the practice of religion by Muslims in the United States. These people have condemned ISIS as say an American Christian would condemn the use of violence against abortion clinics. http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/09/25/muslims-and-scholars-condemn-isis-betraying-religion-mercy-and-compassion

I am curious about whether any of the posters on this thread so set against tolerance of Muslims in the United States have any friends who are Muslim? I had a good friend on Findlaw's message boards who lived among various Muslims in Indonesia. Indonesia has a very large population of Muslims but she as a Christian tried to be very tolerant of others religions even if she was scared about the separation of church and state because of the possibility of fanatics taking power. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/indonesia/11047487/Indonesia-president-says-Islamic-State-embarrassing-Muslims.html

Whenever fanatics take over a government there are problems with human rights being smashed such as with Mussolini's Italy, Stalin's USSR, Hitler's Nazi Germany, and a whole number of other power structures controlled by psychopaths. ISIS just looks like a state controlled by such a totalitarian group. They use the Muslim religion to twist people how they want.

[Buffalo Jim]

Depends on where you are taking the example from? If it is near a hot spot with respect to violence like Ukraine, for instance, the numbers would be high for supporting terrorism as long as your side is winning. This would be either Christian or Muslim.

If you mean Iowa, say Des Moines, they might be quite close.

A community like Minneapolis with a very large number of parents who come from war torn countries like Somalia, you would probably be right as these countries are primarily Muslim.

The fact is many of the wars going on in 2014 are in Muslim countries not because of that religion but because of strife over the control of natural resources like oil, water and other commodities. Both sides use religion in propaganda efforts.

The old idea of a holy war or jihad is invoked by leaders who are in these wars but this has very little to do with the practice of religion by Muslims in the United States. These people have condemned ISIS as say an American Christian would condemn the use of violence against abortion clinics. Muslims and Scholars Condemn ISIS for Betraying Religion of 'Mercy' and 'Compassion' | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community (http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/09/25/muslims-and-scholars-condemn-isis-betraying-religion-mercy-and-compassion)

Exactly what specific " data points / metrics " do you have to back up your position ? I think that it would be " instructive " for most of us . IE A " TEACHING MOMENT " FROM YOU TO " US " .

[Taltarzac725]

Exactly what specific " data points / metrics " do you have to back up your position ? I think that it would be " instructive " for most of us . IE A " TEACHING MOMENT " FROM YOU TO " US " .

We are getting very far afield from the topic of this thread but this might help. Not exactly my views but this does cover oil and the history of wars over the past 75 years or so. Oil Wars|Greenpeace International (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/oil-wars/blog/40030/)

[TexaninVA]

Depends on where you are taking the example from? If it is near a hot spot with respect to violence like Ukraine, for instance, the numbers would be high for supporting terrorism as long as your side is winning. This would be either Christian or Muslim.

If you mean Iowa, say Des Moines, they might be quite close.

A community like Minneapolis with a very large number of parents who come from war torn countries like Somalia, you would probably be right as these countries are primarily Muslim.

The fact is many of the wars going on in 2014 are in Muslim countries not because of that religion but because of strife over the control of natural resources like oil, water and other commodities. Both sides use religion in propaganda efforts.

The old idea of a holy war or jihad is invoked by leaders who are in these wars but this has very little to do with the practice of religion by Muslims in the United States. These people have condemned ISIS as say an American Christian would condemn the use of violence against abortion clinics. Muslims and Scholars Condemn ISIS for Betraying Religion of 'Mercy' and 'Compassion' | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community (http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/09/25/muslims-and-scholars-condemn-isis-betraying-religion-mercy-and-compassion)

I am curious about whether any of the posters on this thread so set against tolerance of Muslims in the United States have any friends who are Muslim? I had a good friend on Findlaw's message boards who lived among various Muslims in Indonesia. Indonesia has a very large population of Muslims but she as a Christian tried to be very tolerant of others religions even if she was scared about the separation of church and state because of the possibility of fanatics taking power. Indonesia president says Islamic State 'embarrassing' Muslims - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/indonesia/11047487/Indonesia-president-says-Islamic-State-embarrassing-Muslims.html)

Whenever fanatics take over a government there are problems with human rights being smashed such as with Mussolini's Italy, Stalin's USSR, Hitler's Nazi Germany, and a whole number of other power structures controlled by psychopaths. ISIS just looks like a state controlled by such a totalitarian group. They use the Muslim religion to twist people how they want.

Let me try it this way … I’m going to ask you to answer a question and see if you will be good enough to respond.

As a generalization, and to keep things simple, do you think the proclivity towards violence, based on teachings of their respective faiths, is basically equivalent between Islam and Christianity?

[Taltarzac725]

Let me try it this way … I’m going to ask you to answer a question and see if you will be good enough to respond.

As a generalization, and to keep things simple, do you think the proclivity towards violence, based on teachings of their respective faiths, is basically equivalent between Islam and Christianity?

That's just it. Religion is never simple.

[TexaninVA]

That's just it. Religion is never simple.

I'm going to take that a nice way not to answer the question.

And, further, I'm going to guess that if you had answered it, you would have said "essentially no difference in proclivities towards violence between Islam and Christianity."

[TexaninVA]

We are getting very far afield from the topic of this thread but this might help. Not exactly my views but this does cover oil and the history of wars over the past 75 years or so. Oil Wars|Greenpeace International (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/oil-wars/blog/40030/)

Greenpeace?

Actually by citing the source you did, you’ve told us what we really need to know about your core beliefs, and where you’re coming from with your worldview. Thanks for being honest about it.

[Taltarzac725]

Greenpeace?

Actually by citing the source you did, you’ve told us what we really need to know about your core beliefs, and where you’re coming from with your worldview. Thanks for being honest about it.

That's also simplistic. I just pulled up what I had Googled. It was there for a little bit. My core beliefs are based on four degrees (including a Minor in Religious Studies) and fighting for victims' rights for 23 years at great expense to me and my family. Some of my allies in this fight have been religious groups which include mosques among other community resources for aid. Of course, the religious groups that might be of help to victims here in Florida would be very different from those in Syria, Iraq, Iran, or other places.

I wish people on TOTV would be a little fairer in how they treat others by not putting words in their mouths, setting up straw men, or putting false beliefs on them. I try to treat others with respect as the Golden Rule (a chief tenet of Christianity) propels us to do.

In the Villages, I would not see any more of a proclivity towards violence from a Christian Villager than from a Muslim Villager. In a war zone, I do not see either a Muslim nor a Christian nor a Jew turning the other cheek if there is a threat to the lives of their families and themselves.

[TexaninVA]

That's also simplistic. I just pulled up what I had Googled. It was there for a little bit. My core beliefs are based on four degrees (including a Minor in Religious Studies) and fighting for victims' rights for 23 years at great expense to me and my family. Some of my allies in this fight have been religious groups which include mosques among other community resources for aid. Of course, the religious groups that might be of help to victims here in Florida would be very different from those in Syria, Iraq, Iran, or other places.

I wish people on TOTV would be a little fairer in how they treat others by not putting words in their mouths, setting up straw men, or putting false beliefs on them. I try to treat others with respect as the Golden Rule (a chief tenet of Christianity) propels us to do.

In the Villages, I would not see any more of a proclivity towards violence from a Christian Villager than from a Muslim Villager. In a war zone, I do not see either a Muslim nor a Christian nor a Jew turning the other cheek if there is a threat to the lives of their families and themselves.

Well, you may deem it simplistic, but I think it provides us significant insight. Again, I thank you for at least being honest about where you're coming from ... i.e., essentially no difference.

You argue your points well ... I just happen to think your world view is neither realistic nor helpful to our longer term security, multiple degrees notwithstanding. I imagine you think likewise of my world view. Hey, that's why this is a discussion board. It's not personal so lets just agree to disagree at this point.

[Taltarzac725]

Well, you may deem it simplistic, but I think it provides us significant insight. Again, I thank you for at least being honest about where you're coming from ... i.e., essentially no difference.

You argue your points well ... I just happen to think your world view is neither realistic nor helpful to our longer term security, multiple degrees notwithstanding. I imagine you think likewise of my world view. Hey, that's why this is a discussion board. It's not personal so lets just agree to disagree at this point.

You think I can see your world view in a few posts? Hardly. Nor, can you see mine.

I have said nothing about my politics towards the Middle East. There is definitely a quickness on the part of Muslims in the Middle East to go to violence to make points but we are not talking about that really but about some guy who beheaded a woman in Oklahoma who had converted to Islam in prison probably to survive in a gang culture where belonging to a group keeps you from being raped. Or, raped less. I did represent prisoners at the Minnesota Correctional Facility in Stillwater for 18 months or so as a Student Attorney at the University of Minnesota Law School.

People behave differently when their survival is on the line. Very few Americans can really comprehend that unless they have been in a combat zone. I have never been in a combat zone but did volunteer with Veterans of Foreign Wars Hospital for a year of weekends in 1977-1978 so I did get a first hand look at the long term effects of combat in people in their 90s but also much younger.

The very violent actions of Muslims like those in ISIS usually come from combat zones. I personally do not know what I would do when presented with such a situation. I doubt if few really do unless they have had extensive military training to deal with the fear, stress, and deprivations.

[Patty55]

I'm still on the fence whether this character was part of an organized terrorist group or just loopy.

I don't think I know any Muslims, if I do they must be very moderate for me to not recognize it. If this OK incident is a terrorist act I think it was successful. Who would think that one person killing a co-worker would warrant this sort of attention (I'm sure it happens every day somewhere). Yet, we have people spending days speculating, googling up a storm and afraid. That is the terrorist's job, to inspire fear and once you let fear change you and let it run your life they have won.

I'm still leaning towards this man being very angry (possibly towards women in general), lacking control over his dismal life and lashing out at an available target. Just an common loser.

[Rags123]

You think I can see your world view in a few posts? Hardly. Nor, can you see mine.

I have said nothing about my politics towards the Middle East. There is definitely a quickness on the part of Muslims in the Middle East to go to violence to make points but we are not talking about that really but about some guy who beheaded a woman in Oklahoma who had converted to Islam in prison probably to survive in a gang culture where belonging to a group keeps you from being raped. Or, raped less. I did represent prisoners at the Minnesota Correctional Facility in Stillwater for 18 months or so as a Student Attorney at the University of Minnesota Law School.

People behave differently when their survival is on the line. Very few Americans can really comprehend that unless they have been in a combat zone. I have never been in a combat zone but did volunteer with Veterans of Foreign Wars Hospital for a year of weekends in 1977-1978 so I did get a first hand look at the long term effects of combat in people in their 90s but also much younger.

The very violent actions of Muslims like those in ISIS usually come from combat zones. I personally do not know what I would do when presented with such a situation. I doubt if few really do unless they have had extensive military training to deal with the fear, stress, and deprivations.

You paint a very sympathetic picture of the radicals and why they are.

With all due respect to you, I offer that millions, over the years, have faced a lot worse and not become vile killing animals. Of course the environment is a cause, but if fear, stress, and deprivations cause this, bless those over the years that have no succumbed to this and became a killer.

While I understand, I think, what you say, that is no excuse and therefore, to me, is not even a consideration. These people are not committing petty theft

[gomoho]

Patty - I think it was the way the co-worker was killed that gets our attention. Your average Joe going postal at work doesn't behead their target.

Tal - we now know from a previous post your are an attorney - were you also a politician?

[Patty55]

Patty - I think it was the way the co-worker was killed that gets our attention. Your average Joe going postal at work doesn't behead their target.

Tal - we now know from a previous post your are an attorney - were you also a politician?

Your average Joe doesn't trim produce with a machete type knife. If he were a roofer he might have shot her with a nail gun.

If that facebook that was posted was really his I'd say he was a wannabe terrorist but in reality was nothing more than a powerless loser with women issues.

[xNYer]

I'm afraid this is only the beginning. Pray for our country and may God bless America.

Alton Nolen had a tattoo of Jesus on his chest. He had just been fired and returned to his workplace and beheaded the woman. Is his tatoo significant and indicative of Christain behavior we should worry about?

What was his motivation for the beheading, to advance Islam in some particularly heinous way as ISIS Had done?

How can this not be seen as the reaction of a disturbed individual?

How has this become one of the "God Bless America" events?

[Taltarzac725]

You paint a very sympathetic picture of the radicals and why they are.

With all due respect to you, I offer that millions, over the years, have faced a lot worse and not become vile killing animals. Of course the environment is a cause, but if fear, stress, and deprivations cause this, bless those over the years that have no succumbed to this and became a killer.

While I understand, I think, what you say, that is no excuse and therefore, to me, is not even a consideration. These people are not committing petty theft

Do I? Putting positions in my mouth I never spoke. What I AM saying is that people should not make over-generalizations about Muslims. Someone who has been in a war zone thinks and acts a bit differently than those who have not been under the threat of immediate death. I hardly condone the actions of ISIS. Where did I say anything remotely supporting extremists!!!!

Some of you people really play dirty! Like really below the belt Tyson style nasty.

[Taltarzac725]

Alton Nolen had a tattoo of Jesus on his chest. He had just been fired and returned to his workplace and beheaded the woman. Is his tatoo significant and indicative of Christain behavior we should worry about?

What was his motivation for the beheading, to advance Islam in some particularly heinous way as ISIS Had done?

How can this not be seen as the reaction of a disturbed individual?

How has this become one of the "God Bless America" events?

I do not understand this mindset either. What does this action of some loser with women issues as Patti probably correctly surmised have anything to do with the stereotypical Muslim? Which many here are attacking along with me for trying to fight for education about what Muslims are actually like in various countries. What is wrong with knowledge, empathy and tolerance!

[Taltarzac725]

Patty - I think it was the way the co-worker was killed that gets our attention. Your average Joe going postal at work doesn't behead their target.

Tal - we now know from a previous post your are an attorney - were you also a politician?

No I am a law librarian by training who has been fighting for more practical materials accessible in libraries of all kinds for survivors/victims of violent and other kinds of crimes since January 1991. Some of these might be Muslims, some might be WASPs, some might be African-Americans, etc.

I am NOT an attorney, nor a politician.

I do see a lot of hate directed at Muslims on TOTV. Very sad state of affairs.

[Sophie11]

Did the people not speak up in Germany because of fear? Millions of lives lost….why? How could this of been STOPPED! People think that if they stay politically correct it will put them in great standings with the powers that be?

[Taltarzac725]

Did the people not speak up in Germany because of fear? Millions of lives lost….why? How could this of been STOPPED! People think that if they stay politically correct it will put them in great standings with the powers that be?

Hatred, bigotry, and racism were the stock in trade of the Nazis along with being very politically correct within their membership. They took those who did not agree with them to the gas chambers. They probably supported all that with quotes from the Bible as well.

Fighting against racism and bigotry are not just politically correct they are also the Christian thing to do if you follow the Golden Rule.

[Cisco Kid]

Another case of work place violence.
This one thet stopped before he went off.

Fired Oklahoma City nursing home worker threatened beheading, police say | News OK (http://newsok.com/fired-oklahoma-city-nursing-home-worker-threatened-beheading-police-say/article/5346476)

[Rags123]

Do I? Putting positions in my mouth I never spoke. What I AM saying is that people should not make over-generalizations about Muslims. Someone who has been in a war zone thinks and acts a bit differently than those who have not been under the threat of immediate death. I hardly condone the actions of ISIS. Where did I say anything remotely supporting extremists!!!!

Some of you people really play dirty! Like really below the belt Tyson style nasty.

OK....AS an attorney you probably like to have structured discussions, as do I.

Thus, let me begin by quoting YOU...

"People behave differently when their survival is on the line. Very few Americans can really comprehend that unless they have been in a combat zone. I have never been in a combat zone but did volunteer with Veterans of Foreign Wars Hospital for a year of weekends in 1977-1978 so I did get a first hand look at the long term effects of combat in people in their 90s but also much younger.

The very violent actions of Muslims like those in ISIS usually come from combat zones. I personally do not know what I would do when presented with such a situation. I doubt if few really do unless they have had extensive military training to deal with the fear, stress, and deprivations."

Now that is exactly what YOU typed. To me, that sounds like you are making excuses for folks who have had those horrific experiences. To me, that sounded like, assuming you were discussing any anti Muslim feelings, a REASON for their actions.

I can find no reason and all I said was that other folks, many many many, have had the same experiences and NOT become violent.

Now, I did not put those words in your mouth, nor that position. Those are YOUR words taken from YOUR post. If I misread them, feel free to correct me and explain what I did misread.

I made NO generalizations about Muslims at any time in my post. I simply said that the reasons you cited are NO EXCUSE. NONE. Not for killing other people.

To me, when you offer an excuse for folks as you did, that is not exactly supporting terrorists...I agree. However, we are discussing cold blooded killers and I can find NO excuse, reason or whatever for that kind of behavior. I DID serve in a war zone and still feel this way.

Now, I really take offense to your comment about "playing dirty" and hope you will explain that. I am working with your comments only....and not sure what you mean by "you people". Of what group do you put me in ? That might also need a bit of an explanation.

Please reply. I do not "play dirty".....I am not part of a "people" organization...I simply tried to make a point that NO MATTER THE ENVIRONMENT, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. And that many others have been in the same environment.

To me, these people have no REASON, EXCUSE, JUSTIFICATION, DEFENSE for killing other people. To me it is that simple. Perhaps in your legal mind, you just automatically find some defense for any behavior. I, right or wrong, do not think that way when it comes to killing other people in an affirmative way. I added the affirmative way so it is not turned around on me about self defense, etc.

If you seek to kill other people in an agressive manner, there are no excuses. Especially considering the who and how in this case.

Do people grow up in a environment that is scary and frightening and conducive to bad behavior....yes, and many overcome and certainly would rather be killed for not killing than to kill.

[Rags123]

No I am a law librarian by training who has been fighting for more practical materials accessible in libraries of all kinds for survivors/victims of violent and other kinds of crimes since January 1991. Some of these might be Muslims, some might be WASPs, some might be African-Americans, etc.

I am NOT an attorney, nor a politician.

I do see a lot of hate directed at Muslims on TOTV. Very sad state of affairs.


I have seen hate on TOTV directed at Republicans.

I have seen hate on TOTV directed at those who believe in God.

I have seen hate on TOTV directed at blacks.

I have seen hate on TOTV directed at talking heads with political views.

I have seen hate on TOTV directed at networks because of their political stances on both sides.


I could go on and on, but hope you get my point. Do you speak out against that hate at all ???????

I see no HATE against muslims...I see FEAR about the Islamic faith and parts of its credo. I do not see HATE.

[Taltarzac725]

OK....AS an attorney you probably like to have structured discussions, as do I.

Thus, let me begin by quoting YOU...

"People behave differently when their survival is on the line. Very few Americans can really comprehend that unless they have been in a combat zone. I have never been in a combat zone but did volunteer with Veterans of Foreign Wars Hospital for a year of weekends in 1977-1978 so I did get a first hand look at the long term effects of combat in people in their 90s but also much younger.

The very violent actions of Muslims like those in ISIS usually come from combat zones. I personally do not know what I would do when presented with such a situation. I doubt if few really do unless they have had extensive military training to deal with the fear, stress, and deprivations."

Now that is exactly what YOU typed. To me, that sounds like you are making excuses for folks who have had those horrific experiences. To me, that sounded like, assuming you were discussing any anti Muslim feelings, a REASON for their actions.

I can find no reason and all I said was that other folks, many many many, have had the same experiences and NOT become violent.

Now, I did not put those words in your mouth, nor that position. Those are YOUR words taken from YOUR post. If I misread them, feel free to correct me and explain what I did misread.

I made NO generalizations about Muslims at any time in my post. I simply said that the reasons you cited are NO EXCUSE. NONE. Not for killing other people.

To me, when you offer an excuse for folks as you did, that is not exactly supporting terrorists...I agree. However, we are discussing cold blooded killers and I can find NO excuse, reason or whatever for that kind of behavior. I DID serve in a war zone and still feel this way.

Now, I really take offense to your comment about "playing dirty" and hope you will explain that. I am working with your comments only....and not sure what you mean by "you people". Of what group do you put me in ? That might also need a bit of an explanation.

Please reply. I do not "play dirty".....I am not part of a "people" organization...I simply tried to make a point that NO MATTER THE ENVIRONMENT, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. And that many others have been in the same environment.

To me, these people have no REASON, EXCUSE, JUSTIFICATION, DEFENSE for killing other people. To me it is that simple. Perhaps in your legal mind, you just automatically find some defense for any behavior. I, right or wrong, do not think that way when it comes to killing other people in an affirmative way. I added the affirmative way so it is not turned around on me about self defense, etc.

If you seek to kill other people in an agressive manner, there are no excuses. Especially considering the who and how in this case.

Do people grow up in a environment that is scary and frightening and conducive to bad behavior....yes, and many overcome and certainly would rather be killed for not killing than to kill.

That is not exactly what I typed. You left out a few sentences.

What I was saying was that the fear many have is about actions by ISIS who are people for the most part in combat zones.

There have been many generalizations on this thread about all Muslims acting in such a manner as those who do atrocious things in war time settings. Some Muslim in the Villages is not acting or thinking along the same line as Muslim extremists who are in war zones. They are probably thinking about prayers, their kids and parents, work, their pets, shopping, football games, etc. and hardly contemplate the actions of ISIS in Syria unless they are reading the paper or looking at the TV set. I will bet that many of these Muslims are appalled by what is going on in the name of Muslims as committed by the fiends in ISIS.

What I had written was about the Middle East and Muslims in war zones --

I have said nothing about my politics towards the Middle East. There is definitely a quickness on the part of Muslims in the Middle East to go to violence to make points but we are not talking about that really but about some guy who beheaded a woman in Oklahoma who had converted to Islam in prison probably to survive in a gang culture where belonging to a group keeps you from being raped. Or, raped less. I did represent prisoners at the Minnesota Correctional Facility in Stillwater for 18 months or so as a Student Attorney at the University of Minnesota Law School.

People behave differently when their survival is on the line. Very few Americans can really comprehend that unless they have been in a combat zone. I have never been in a combat zone but did volunteer with Veterans of Foreign Wars Hospital for a year of weekends in 1977-1978 so I did get a first hand look at the long term effects of combat in people in their 90s but also much younger.

The very violent actions of Muslims like those in ISIS usually come from combat zones. I personally do not know what I would do when presented with such a situation. I doubt if few really do unless they have had extensive military training to deal with the fear, stress, and deprivations.

[Patty55]

Hmmm, did you all know that the Sheriff Nolen attacked in 2010 was a WOMAN? Did you know that members of his mosque describe him as "a little odd" (y'thunk?).

I'm still going with the lone loser.

[wendyquat]

Apparently some have not taken the time nor effort to review Mr. Nolens Facebook page! It definitely does not reflect a scared little prisoner acting out to appease a gang member! ITS RIGHT THERE IN BLACK, WHITE AND COLOR! IT LOOKS LIKE A DUCK, QUACKS LIKE A DUCK AND ANYONE WITH COMMON SENSE CAN SEE THAT IT IS INDEED A DUCK!

Speaking of Facebook just try an experiment and look up some of the local Muslims pages and check out their "friends list"! So much for their "assimilation" with non-muslims!

[billethkid]

why is it that we only hear from non Muslims defending or promoting Muslims and never from Muslims?

[Taltarzac725]

why is it that we only hear from non Muslims defending or promoting Muslims and never from Muslims?

You really think some member of TOTV is going to admit to be a Muslim with all this racial and religious hatred shown here on TOTV on this and other threads against all Muslims for the actions of terrorists in Syria and elsewhere as well as from people who probably converted to being Muslim because they had very serious mental problems of some kind like this OK deranged murderer?

I am a Lutheran if any one is accusing me of being a Muslim.

I hope our leaders have better sense than this. They do have more sense. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mccain-slams-fox-news-muslims-praising-allah-no-different-than-christians-praising-god-video

[billethkid]

My comments were not specific to TOTV but in general society

[tucson]

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/09/15are-you-located-near-a-terrorist-camp-in-america-find-out-here-/


Terrorist training camps in the US since the 1980's (at least 30 of them)

[gomoho]

You really think some member of TOTV is going to admit to be a Muslim with all this racial and religious hatred shown here on TOTV on this and other threads against all Muslims for the actions of terrorists in Syria and elsewhere as well as from people who probably converted to being Muslim because they had very serious mental problems of some kind like this OK deranged murderer?

I am a Lutheran if any one is accusing me of being a Muslim.

I hope our leaders have better sense than this. They do have more sense. McCain Slams Fox News: Muslims Thank Allah Like Christians Thank God (VIDEO) (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mccain-slams-fox-news-muslims-praising-allah-no-different-than-christians-praising-god-video)

Tal I think you are losing a good number of us with your constant references to this mass hatred of all Muslims. That is not the case at all - we are referring to those "lone losers" "madmen" or whatever that are killing in the name of Allah.

[graciegirl]

Tal, I am sorry you are so upset and I am sorry that you can't see what is clear to me and many others.

I am a person who does not attend church on Sunday. I was born a Lutheran, became a Catholic in a personal journey at 18 when many young people question the existence of God.

I married a Catholic and have always felt a great affinity for the church but like many,have not agreed with birth control, and other tenets.

I am not in sync with very conservative or liberal Christians. I have lived as a child in communities with many Jews and Christians and for the last 20 years before moving here in a diverse community with many Muslims. We had a large and beautiful mosque in our suburb of Cincinnati. I have been there for discussion groups with a Catholic woman's group.

Our Meijer's store looked like a foreign country at times. I never had a negative interaction with anyone in my life because of their faith. No argument with neighbors or children or anyone because I just do not care what others believe as long as it isn't harming others.

I was terribly changed by 911 and by the Boston Bombings.

I am afraid of domestic terrorists who are extreme Muslims, far more than any other kind of faith. In today's world it seems to me that organized large groups of people who are religious do not commit suicide to kill others with whom they don't agree except for extreme Muslims.

I do not agree with the suppression of woman by any means and I am not a libber. I know that conservative Christians feel that the man is the head of the home but that isn't what I mean. I do not agree with stoning a woman because of infidelity, and I CERTAINLY do not think homosexual people should be killed.

I don't see why both sexes don't attend the Mosque to pray and HATE that millions and millions of Muslim women have had clitorectomies so that they can not have sexual pleasure. I know this because my next door neighbor in Cincinnati, a female physician born in India accompanied a team from Harvard to investigate this in Egypt.

I hate hatred for no good reason and disdain fear for no good reason and I don't like that even some of my good friends here on this forum think I am a bit of a fear monger.

And Tal I hope you know that I have always respected your intellect and your ideas and you.

I just think that I have a justifiable reason to be afraid and I am very grateful that you published the message from the Canadian Imam association. It makes me feel a little better.

But, I am still afraid.

[Taltarzac725]

My comments were not specific to TOTV but in general society

There are many Muslims who speak out against extremists who commit crimes in the name of their God. These are probably some of the most strident voices. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us-muslim-leaders-denounce-islamic-state-pledge-to-dissuade-youth-from-joining/2014/09/10/e6a27f8e-38f9-11e4-bdfb-de4104544a37_story.html

[tucson]

Tal I think you are losing a good number of us with your constant references to this mass hatred of all Muslims. That is not the case at all - we are referring to those "lone losers" "madmen" or whatever that are killing in the name of Allah.

I just posted true documentation of at least 30 terrorists camps in the US, what do you say about that Tal? When are people going to wake up and SEE the road that we are going on in this country?? If you don't believe me, just google it.

[Taltarzac725]

I just posted true documentation of at least 30 terrorists camps in the US, what do you say about that Tal? When are people going to wake up and SEE the road that we are going on in this country?? If you don't believe me, just google it.

And our government does not know about these? Of course they do. It is the ISIS fighters and others who look just like some of us I worry about. And many of these are probably recent converts that look nothing like Muslim stereotypes.

I did Google this and these results date back to 2007 or much earlier when Bush was still in power as President. http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/special-investigative-reports/muslim-terrorist-training-camps-in-north-america

[rubicon]

Can Muslims be good Americans? *****


This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish. And send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam. (Quran,2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him. (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and 'good' Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand!

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.

Please don't delete this until you send it on.

This summation is excellent and not based on fear bias, etc but factual behavior. In Minnesota a few assimilate mostly doctors, etc. However even the moderate Somalia's for example refuse passengers in their cabs if they are carrying alcoholic off of plane or checkout clerks refuse to touch pork etc. In Belgium there is a major campaign called ShariaLaw4 Belgium . Like Minnesota many of the muslim in Belgium are recruited to fight with jihidist

Many countries in Europe are overwhelmed with radical or disenfranchised muslim . America is going to face the same problems and as demonstrated in Detroit it has begun. Race or religion aside far too many muslims are anarchist and will never want to assimilate here in America

[Sophie11]

Unless the shirts were given to you by Jesus. - It is easier for a rich man to go through an eye of the needle than to enter heaven. I like this one - Labor not eat not (:

[TOTV Team]

Thread closed - Due to the thread becoming political.