Golfers Liable?

[Village Kid 2]

Yesterday a golfer on the 16th hole of the Orange Blossom Country Club course shanked a ball out of a large hole and broke my neighbor's dining room window. One would think he would knock on the door and apologize and offer to pay for a replacement window.

Here's what happened. When the homeowner went out and inquired, the golfer would not even admit doing it, even though he was the only golfer in close proximity. Then he told the homeowner that anyone living on a golf course assumes the risk of damage to their property. He never would give his name.

The homeowner went to the pro shop and got the names of the foursome and then the culpable person's name and filed a police report. Fortunately, the golfer's wife, when told about this, called the homeowner and offered to call her insurance company to cover the damage. It was a double pane window and the cost will probably be around $200.

My question is, are golfer's responsible for damage to homes when playing on the courses?
If damage is done and no one sees who does it, does the course owner or TV have any responsibility to the homeowner? Anyone with experience with this?

VK2

[bobfl]

There was recently an article in the paper here in Fort Myers about this. The bottom line as I remember it was that the golfer is not responsible. The thinking was that no one can predict the flight path of a golf ball accurately. Also the article said that people who move next to a golf course should expect that sooner or later they will get hit. Sounds funny I know but thats what it said. If I get a chance I'll see if I can find it.

[Taltarzac]

That looks like a very grey area from the minimal research I did on the Internet just now. The golf course was here at the same time as the house so you would think that the home owner assumes the liability by buying on the golf course. But, I can see an argument of the home owner's side too that the person who hit the golf ball should be the one responsible for his or her actions.

Think all you will get out of this post is a lot of very vague answers unless there are some kind of documents you sign about liability when you go on the golf course or in the deed for the house about the perils of errant golf balls.

You may want to check out this Golf Forum -- http://www.golflink.com/golf-forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6011&TPN=3

[bimmertl]

While the golfers wife may have offered to call her insurance company, don't expect the insurance company to pay for the damages. Most likely result will be a denial of the claim based upon the fact the golfer is not legally liable for the damages.

The liability section of the homeowners policy reimburses others for damages caused by negligence of the insured. In order for liability to arise from such an event, the golfer must be negligent. Hitting an errant golf shot is a common occurence and something that happens to even the best golfers.

Negligence is generally defined as failing to act with prudence that a reasonable person would exercise under the same circumstances. Reasonable golfers hit errant shots on occasion so such an occurence doesn't meet a negligence standard.

So your neighbor can expect a denial from the HO carrier.

[Village Kid 2]

Interesting. So what you all are saying is, homeowners on golf courses assume the risks (and costs) of damages, even though they do nothing negligent. I guess it comes down to a moral decision by any golfer who knowingly does this as to what he/she should do.

[DickY]

I found this about Arizona Real Estate law. Florida might be similar,
http://www.homesalenews.com/real-estate-law/20050105-2.htm

[SteveFromNY]

Liable or not, I don't know.
But I do know the safest place to be when I have a club in my hands is right in front of me.
I once set off a car alarm on a car parked in the driveway of a house that couldn't be seen from the course!

[zummy]

Most homeowners policies have a "damage to property of others" additional coverage that pays up to 500 per occurrence with certain exclusions. This type of loss should be covered. Check your policy jackets under additional coverages. If you don't have it, ask your agent why.

[Taltarzac]

This article on golf course real estate seems on point-- http://www.golfcourserealty.com/features/golf-course-homeowners-insurance-3921.htm

[Village Kid 2]

Thanks for the informative articles DickY and Tal and others who contributed. I see the pattern for where the legal liability is (not with the golfer, it seems) but what about moral obligation. If I caused destruction to someone's property, I would certainly own up to it and "make them whole" when they are an innocent party. Just because one can avoid it, should they? This is a whole 'nother question.

VK

[Hancle704]

If Golf truly is a game for ladies and gentlemen then there should be no need to deal with this problem. However, once some folks move to TV they believe their Amenity fees cover everything. It starts with the speed demons driving to the course in their hopped up machines who pass everything else on the road, don't make full stops, don't signal, or yield the right of way, Then upon arriving they insist on hitting ball into the foursome ahead who have yet to clear the greens. They insist that the ball marks and divots they leave should be repaired by someone else. Is it any wonder some of these "golfers" wont pay for damage they have done. What a way to spend a retirement, being a horse's patootie.

[Russ_Boston]

I don't think TV has cornered the market on horse's patooties!

[Sidney Lanier]

We chose not to live near a golf course, one of the reasons being what this thread is about: errant golf balls causing damage, the others being errant golfers looking for their golf balls and the sprays and pesticides that are used on the golf courses. We'd never thought about how the costs of damage are handled, so this is an eye-opener for us. Since from this thread it appears that the golfer is not legally responsible for the damages he or she causes, then the solution would have to be based on what's moral, decent, and responsible, simply owning up to any damage and taking it from there. This is a pretty thoughtful question and hope to read more on this thread about it....

[captain1202]

Unfortnately a sign of the times :'( . He probably needs to "apologize" and spend 4 weeks in "golfers responsibility" rehab.

[nitehawk]

check this out - from the lynnhave web site http://home.comcast.net/~askal/break_a_window_golfing.htm

[graciegirl]

Again, a very interesting and informative thread and just when I was beginning to think I knew it all, I learn.

Our family has lived on two golf courses for the past thirty years, and we all play golf, some of us better than others. Those who play well stay in the fairway and those who don't have had the misfortune to hit into peoples yards. We all assumed and will continue to assume that we are responsible for any damage done when that little white missile goes astray.

I don't recall anytime when an accident occured that the golfer failed to pay. BUT this is Ohio, the moral center of the universe. ;D

Gracie Girl

[l2ridehd]

Who cares what the "legal" responsibility is with this. It is my moral responsibility to take ownership of my actions. And I would hope and expect every golfer to feel the same. If I damage someones property with a golf ball I will knock on their door and pay for or correct any damage. And if this truly is "Americas friendliest home town" I can't imagine anyone not doing that.

Everyone needs to take responsibility for what they do and not do in life.

[nitehawk]

If I buy a home on a golf course, I have to be prepared for a wayward golf ball, the same way if I build on the beach (in say the Hampton's in long island NY) the I have to realize there may be a hurricane someday that destroys my home. So i take the risk or insure myself against these thing. I really dint think anyone intentionally hits a golf shot at a home - its an accident If you have a home in the line of fire then protect yourself - either have the builder who put you home in that position, protect you with a fence, or insure yourself. anyone who buys a home has to accept the accidental "incoming"Would you buy a home next to a trap shooting range and not protect yourself

[Rokinronda]

The golfer should have absolutely offered to repair the window! Yes, accidents happen, does that make us unliable? >:( When our son was a typical young boy, :hot: we explained about hitting balls away from buildings. Windows break. Our son would be responsible for his actions! Well, that day came and our son emptied his piggy bank (and 2 weeks future allowance) and paid the neighbor for her broken window. He actually felt good doing the right thing!! Wonder what that golfer taught his kids? Well, my little boy is almost 24, an avid golfer and a respectible gentleman. He could not believe this story here! I was happy to read that the homeowner followed through, found the mans info, filed a police report. Insurance?? We all know there are deductables. The golfer thought he could just walk away and forget it? The damage and inconvenience was caused by HIM. Shame on him and anyone who thinks the same!! Own up to your mistakes and learn from them!

[samhass]

My thoughts, exactly.



Who cares what the "legal" responsibility is with this. It is my moral responsibility to take ownership of my actions. And I would hope and expect every golfer to feel the same. If I damage someones property with a golf ball I will knock on their door and pay for or correct any damage. And if this truly is "Americas friendliest home town" I can't imagine anyone not doing that.

Everyone needs to take responsibility for what they do and not do in life.

[johnfarr]

I live on a golf course in TV and we occasionally get hit by golf balls. I'm a novice golfer who has hit a house or two, and sympathize with my fellow duffers. Mostly the balls bounce off the roof and cause no damage. Some golfers are quite cavalier about hitting our house and drive by with a "who me?" expression, avoiding eye contact at all costs. I try to get outside and find the ball before the golfers pass through - and toss the ball to them with a friendly remark. The unexpected empathy melts them.

We love the evening quiet and love the location of our home and are glad we chose that location. Because we chose to live there we expect occasional accidental damage. And by living there I get plenty of extra balls.

We have gotten hit on the "golf side" of the house have had some damage. When the laundry window was broken the guilty golfer voluntarily and gladly paid the $135 repair bill. If the vinyl siding is hit dead center a small hole can result. Repair is $75-100. The last time we had to repair the siding I had the repair folks bring some extra siding in the correct color, and now I fix it myself.

I called The Villages golf office once to determine liability for home damage. They said they were not liable, and suggested homeowner and golfer "work it out." That response was what prompted me to cover my windows. Right after the broken window I went to Home Depot and bought Lexan clear plastic and installed it over all four golf side windows ($500). I placed spacers so the plastic is 1" away from the windows (can't transmit ball energy to glass, easier to clean). They assured me it would last many years.

Residents here are good, morally correct people and I would guess that most would do the right thing and pay for damage they caused - despite the laws.

[billethkid]

Any state I lived in and lived on a golf course, the golfers have not been held liable. It does fall into doing what's right. Very often a golfer may not know or be aware of damage he may have caused. And for those who are aware, too many will just ignore it unless confronted......some one said it earlier....if you choose to live on a golf course sooner or later you or your property WILL be hit.....what a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTK

[Muncle]

Several people have commented that it doesn't matter who is liable, that the golfer should pay. That's a nice concept, but as many find out in law, there's a world of difference between what should be and what is. The Lynhaven web site quotes a lawyer who cites trespass claiming the golfer is legally liable. Others have cited a variety of sources showing no "legal" responsibility for the golfer. After reading all the posts, I don't know where the liability lies. :dontknow: One lawyer says one thing, but somebody had to finish at the bottom of the class, so who knows. And as we know, just because a law is interpreted one way in Arizona or California doesn't mean it applies Florida.

It's kinda like driving a roundabout. Yes, everyone should drive carefully and everyone should yield to avoid an accident, but there is a legal position on who has the right-of-way. Just because we don't know it or ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Re liability for an errant golf ball, there is a legal position. Just because it's the ethical thing to do (in our opinion) doesn't mean it's the legal thing. If you have a home in the danger zone :duck: you'd best have a valid legal ruling when considering insurance.

[johnfarr]

To billethkid


YUP!

Or as someone once said: If you buy a house near an airport, don't complain about the noise!

John

[Village Kid 2]

So, Nitehawk and BTK, to use your reasoning, if your car is parked in the parking lot at a shopping center, and I accidentally "bump" it coming out of my parking space causing slight damage, I should drive away because it was an "accident" and anyone parking in a parking lot should just assume that one day they will be hit. Correct?

VK2

[Taltarzac]

Several people have commented that it doesn't matter who is liable, that the golfer should pay. That's a nice concept, but as many find out in law, there's a world of difference between what should be and what is. The Lynhaven web site quotes a lawyer who cites trespass claiming the golfer is legally liable. Others have cited a variety of sources showing no "legal" responsibility for the golfer. After reading all the posts, I don't know where the liability lies. :dontknow: One lawyer says one thing, but somebody had to finish at the bottom of the class, so who knows. And as we know, just because a law is interpreted one way in Arizona or California doesn't mean it applies Florida.

It's kinda like driving a roundabout. Yes, everyone should drive carefully and everyone should yield to avoid an accident, but there is a legal position on who has the right-of-way. Just because we don't know it or ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Re liability for an errant golf ball, there is a legal position. Just because it's the ethical thing to do (in our opinion) doesn't mean it's the legal thing. If you have a home in the danger zone :duck: you'd best have a valid legal ruling when considering insurance.


Think that the lawyer on the Lynnhaven web-site quoted is right about a golf ball hitting a house being a "trespass" but there is the practical matter of identifying the ball hitter with getting the name, address, and phone number and probably insurance information of the responsible golfer as well as getting reliable witnesses in case the guy or gal just says he or she did not do it. There is also the practical matter of whether or not pursuing a suit if needed would be worth the cost and all the related matters.

If all the bases have been covered with documentation of witnesses and the like, small claims court could be an option I suppose.

Also remember that property law was the most illogical and very much state to state variable while in law school. The Florida cases in the area would influence how things would turn out if some kind of legal battle heated up.

[billethkid]

VK....no.....I was merely stating what the laws/rules were in those places where I personally lived on golf courses. No promotion....no advocacy...et al.

What your example and the golfer responsibility do have in common is if nobody sees either one happen, most guilty parties will simply drive away....no matter the rule/law.....unfortunately.

BTK

[Taltarzac]

This might be an interesting book to read if you are interested in this area of golf and the law. It is a to a book called The Little Green Book of Golf Law by John Minan http://www.abanet.org/abastore/index.cfm?section=main&fm=Product.AddToCart&pid=1610058

[Village Kid 2]

Tal, Thanks, I think your analysis is right on the money and thanks for the book site.

BTK, there are two prongs to this issue, you are right, legal liability and moral responsibility.

The more interesting question is what "feels" right to folks if in this situation and the answers above show there are differences of opinion.

Maybe I better reinforce my home as JF did and buy a goalie outfit for sitting on the lanai.

VK2

[Irish Rover]

???OK - I live on a golf course (Whitmoor CC) in St. Charles, MO and this question comes up every year in the early spring. Usually the question is asked by a "new resident". Our pro shop asks that any golfer who hits a house or breaks a window, to let the homeowner know. We are also asked to take responsibility for our errant golf balls. However, several people smarter than me have said that legally the golfer is not responsible, the homeowner is. There have been many heated arguments about balls that have struck houses, swimming pools, and children's play sets on the course. My neighbor across the street has replaced several windows over the last few years at his own expense. His rationale is " I live on a fairway and I knew what could happen". My feeling is that if you knowingly put yourself in "harms way" you have to prepared for the consequences. :agree: I also inform the homeowner if I hit a house.
By the way, my homeowners policy covers me in case I happen to ding someone or their house. This is a topic that can get heated - good luck and buy the windows with the wire mesh in them. :bigthumbsup:

[Muncle]

Hey, I'm leaving now for a quick nine on Turtle Mound. If you're in one of those nice homes on Day Lily backing to the course, you might wanna duck. :duck: I'll have my lawyer with me.

[Irish Rover]

Muncie - if you ever get back to the St. Louis area, please warn me.

[chuckinca]

Recently, someone hit a ball over my house and broke the windshield of my car sitting in the driveway - my $1K deductible covered it.

[Muncle]

Muncie - if you ever get back to the St. Louis area, please warn me.

Irish, I never played at Whitmoor CC, but I did go to a wedding reception at Bogey Hills. I really didn't play much golf during my St. Louis days and never played while visiting St. Charles relatives. I guess I always figured they'd suffered enough.

If I do make it back there, I'll meet you at Pio's for a great dinner.

[ssw]

Before filing a claim with your homeowner's insurance, talk to your agent. Whether the homeowner's company pays the claim or not, it will be reported that you filed a liability claim.

[The Great Fumar]

In Michigan , We have always been under the supposition the the Golfer is responsible for his shot .......Wheather its a house ,car or someones rotton little dog........In which case I would gladly pay............ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

errant fumar

[MnGirl]

Homeowners Insurance for $100. - $200. claim? I would hate to see what your rates will be next year. Isn't there a deductible? Like $1000..
I thought the reason TV puts in the golf courses first is for the reason the homeowner can't say he didn't know a course would be there.

[samhass]

If I broke someone's window or damaged their property, there is no way that I would walk away without contacting the homeowner to let them know what had happened. Although it may have been an accident, IMHO it's morally wrong not to own up to the deed.

[hdken]

How can it be so difficult to get an answer to a simple question? This has nothing to do with morals; it has everything to do with law. As an attorney in NY who lives on a golf course, there is no doubt in my mind that the errant golfer is responsible. Identifying and catching him/her is a different matter. I am equally sure that there is a definitive answer in Florida. Perish the thought that someone might ask a Florida attorney for a written opinion, and pay him/her for the opinion. You get what you pay for :)

[Muncle]

How can it be so difficult to get an answer to a simple question? This has nothing to do with morals; it has everything to do with law. As an attorney in NY who lives on a golf course, there is no doubt in my mind that the errant golfer is responsible. Identifying and catching him/her is a different matter. I am equally sure that there is a definitive answer in Florida. Perish the thought that someone might ask a Florida attorney for a written opinion, and pay him/her for the opinion. You get what you pay for :)



Well, if you want to do it, here's a couple numbers:

Babiarz Law Firm, P.A.
Law Firm in The Villages, Florida
Oakland Hills, Suite 205, 13940 US HWY 441
The Villages, Florida 32159
Phone: 352-205-7599

Mary F. Trotter, P.A.
Law Firm in The Villages, Florida
13940 N. U.S. Highway 441, Suite 210
The Villages, Florida 32159
Phone: 352-205-7245

McLin & Burnsed, P.A.
Law Firm serving The Villages, Florida
1000 West Main Street, P.O. Box 491357
Leesburg, Florida 34749-1357
Phone: 352-787-1241

If you need any more, just holler. Be glad to supply the names and numbers if you contact them. You get what you pay for.

[nitehawk]

I just love lawyers

[captain1202]

Oh No! Are lawyers living along the golf courses? Watch your shots! ;)

[l2ridehd]

The fact that many on here are concerned about what the "legal" answer is, is the real problem. If we would all just take responsibility for our actions the issue would be solved. What would you teach your children? What would you preffer to have happen if it happened to you? How do you feel when someone steals a parking space your waiting for? Or takes something that belongs to you? Or as someone above asked, you come out of a store and someone has hit your car and took off?

If you damage someones property because you hit an errant ball, repair the damage. Yes it was an accident and people who live on golf courses expect errant balls. I could not sleep at night if I hit someones home and caused damage and did not make every attempt to resolve the damage. And I would expect the same from everyone else. If you can't own up to your actions, don't play the game. I just can't seem to comprehend why anyone worries about what is the legal answer instead of what is the "right thing to do" answer.

Have respect for yourself, enjoy your integrity, and go ask the homeowner if you caused any damage. And if they say yes and show you the damage done by the idiot who left yesterday, smile and pay for it. He has to live with that, you don't. Good and bad deeds come back to you 10 fold. Personally I only expect to see good ones. ;D

[bimmertl]

The fact that many on here are concerned about what the "legal" answer is, is the real problem. If we would all just take responsibility for our actions the issue would be solved. What would you teach your children? What would you preffer to have happen if it happened to you? How do you feel when someone steals a parking space your waiting for? Or takes something that belongs to you? Or as someone above asked, you come out of a store and someone has hit your car and took off?

If you damage someones property because you hit an errant ball, repair the damage. Yes it was an accident and people who live on golf courses expect errant balls. I could not sleep at night if I hit someones home and caused damage and did not make every attempt to resolve the damage. And I would expect the same from everyone else. If you can't own up to your actions, don't play the game. I just can't seem to comprehend why anyone worries about what is the legal answer instead of what is the "right thing to do" answer.

Have respect for yourself, enjoy your integrity, and go ask the homeowner if you caused any damage. And if they say yes and show you the damage done by the idiot who left yesterday, smile and pay for it. He has to live with that, you don't. Good and bad deeds come back to you 10 fold. Personally I only expect to see good ones. ;D


Sounds wonderful when it's limited to property damage only. Change the scenario to hitting an errant drive into a persons head or eye. They incur thousands in bills and maybe some disability and it's determined you aren't negligent and therefore not legally liable. No doubt you'd cough up thousands regardless.

Right!!

[zummy]

Bump!!!!!!!!

Most homeowners policies have a "damage to property of others" additional coverage that pays up to 500 per occurrence with certain exclusions. This type of loss should be covered. Check your policy jackets under additional coverages. If you don't have it, ask your agent why.

[Fourpar]

While many might think the golfer responsible for his/her errant shot, the majority of the time that is not the case. Here is a link that may help:
http://www.sjschwartz.com/golflaw.htmhttp://www.sjschwartz.com/golflaw.htm
Most of the time, absent other influencing circumstances, the mere fact that a golfer hits a shot off his/her intended line does not impose liability. When you live on a golf course, you should expect occasional errant balls. My 2cents worth.

[Russ_Boston]

How can it be so difficult to get an answer to a simple question? This has nothing to do with morals; it has everything to do with law. As an attorney in NY who lives on a golf course, there is no doubt in my mind that the errant golfer is responsible. Identifying and catching him/her is a different matter. I am equally sure that there is a definitive answer in Florida. Perish the thought that someone might ask a Florida attorney for a written opinion, and pay him/her for the opinion. You get what you pay for :)

Since you have a professional connection (and I'm sure access to the proper law libraries on-line) why don't you help us out with an answer to the original question? That is why we have TOTV because someone is curious and is looking for help from someone who knows or might be able to find the answer.


Another similar finding to Fourpar:

http://www.iiaba.net/IAMag/NewsViews/082307.html

[smalldog]

http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/smalldog2008/?action=view&current=IMG_0171.jpg Smalldog thinks GOLF Gentlemen Only, but since we now have ladies also :dontknow:THEYwill have to proceed as would Gentlemen
Realmen know they are responsible for their actions and act accordingly ........... I was once on Becal when a golfball impacted the windshield of the cart in font of mine breaking it ......... the golfer showed up shortly and traded information with the people in that cart don't know what happened after that :bigthumbsup:

[graciegirl]

How can it be so difficult to get an answer to a simple question? This has nothing to do with morals; it has everything to do with law. As an attorney in NY who lives on a golf course, there is no doubt in my mind that the errant golfer is responsible. Identifying and catching him/her is a different matter. I am equally sure that there is a definitive answer in Florida. Perish the thought that someone might ask a Florida attorney for a written opinion, and pay him/her for the opinion. You get what you pay for :)







A'hm jist plain folk from southwest Ohio, and I don't know nothin' bout the law or lawyers. What I do know is what I learned in Catholic School. It's about morals. If ya break somethin' that belongs to someone, it's your fault. Ya better see that it gets fixed.

[redwitch]

Gracie, dahlin, y'all said it poifectly (in case the NYers don't understand Southern).

[Fourpar]

smalldog,

Totally different set of circumstances. If a golfer hits someone/thing that is in reasonable proximity of the course of play (ie intended path of the ball) then the golfer has a responsibility for effects of striking his ball. That would presumably include the rough, hazards etc. So (regardless of how slow the group ahead is >:() if I hit into them and injure someone; well, that is certainly my responsibility.

Now that is very different from an errant ball striking a house beside, and therefore not in the intended course of play. This has been tried in many courts, and while there are many other factors involved in most cases, absent any other facts that indicate negligence, the golfer cannot be held responsible. Heck, even the pros occasionally hit a fan or house along the way and they are not responsible for damages. How can anyone reasonably expect us hackers be held to a higher standard? Not reasonable on its face.

On this forum there are two opposing views on this topic for sure. But what must be remembered is we are talking about negligence. That is to say, a person fails in a duty (by their action or omission of an act) to exercise reasonable care, and someone else suffers a loss as a result. But the bottom line is a golfer, absent other facts & circumstances, intends to hit his/her ball toward the target. But the golfer only has so much control over the ball's flight, and certainly not enough to reasonably predict its flight every time the ball is struck. Thus the golfer isn't (absent other issues) liable for the effects on people/houses along the course's perimeter.

When I build/buy a house on a golf course I assume a few things. One is I won't have as much privacy as I would off the course, so I'll see/hear things I may not like. Another is I will get errant balls in my yard and yes, maybe in my house if my windows face the course. These results can be reasonably expected, thus are accepted by the homeowner. Those who do not wish to assume that risk should not build/buy on a golf course.

[Russ_Boston]

Thanks Fourpar for the informed answer. I think I get it now.

If I'm going to injure someone I should make sure it is with an errant shot so that my intent was not obvious. Now if i can just get my intended target to place herself 200 yards downwind and slightly off the course I should be able to angle myself 10 degrees askew and let 'er rip!

[Fourpar]

;D, That'll work ::)