Interesting read - Heart Surgeon Speaks Out On What Really Causes Heart Disease

[lightworker888]

Just got this and felt it was worth sharing on the forum for those who are interested. It really supports so much of what we now know to be true about how the body works and how to best support it. Please don't shoot the messenger!

LW888


» World Renowned Heart Surgeon Speaks Out On What Really Causes Heart Disease (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/08/27/world-renowned-heart-surgeon-speaks-out-on-what-really-causes-heart-disease/)

[scroll]

my personal physician (SON) has been telling me this for years. the hard part eating out is such a social affair it becomes difficult to give it up. when we prepare are own food we do it right.

[pooh]

:bigbow:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I read several books on this subject and I agree wholeheartedly. But, but I've stopped arguing with people about it. It does no good. The medical community and the government have convinced people that eggs are the culprit.

[Carla B]

Our gastroenterologist just told my husband the same thing. Now he happily eats an egg every day.

[Uptown Girl]

Thanks for sharing, lightworker !
:)

[kittygilchrist]

A Skeptical Look at Dwight Lundell, M.D. (http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/lundell.html)

The author's license was revoked for malpractice.

[slipcovers]

I read several books on this subject and I agree wholeheartedly. But, but I've stopped arguing with people about it. It does no good. The medical community and the government have convinced people that eggs are the culprit.



I agree and we read the same books. Just a few weeks I brought up the topic of INFLAMATION in the thread about blood test results.

[NotGolfer]

Yup....I with the article! I too have read a number of articles and books re: this subject which corraborates what this doctor writes about. Read books like Wheat Belly, Total Health, Cholesterol Clarity, Grain Brain and others! I refuse to take statin drugs. There is no proof they cure heart disease. They do cause diabetes and stop your liver from working adequately...plus a plethora of other side-effects.

[CFrance]

A Skeptical Look at Dwight Lundell, M.D. (http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/lundell.html)

The author's license was revoked for malpractice.
Wow, Kitty. Thank you for another take on this. Do you know anything about the Dr. Barrett who wrote the article on the former Dr. Lundell?

Geeze, who can you trust? It's scary. I guess I'll be relying on my doctor, who never wrote a book or sold a pill.

[Steve9930]

Here is my personal experience with statin drugs. Many years ago the target for cholesterol was 300. Mine was at 240 at the time. Also my family doctor indicated that with the ratio between my HDL and LDL they rarely saw problems with people like me. Go forward a year. Again my Cholesterol was measured at 240. Now all of a sudden my Family doctor is not happy with 240. We have to get that down he says. I'm going to put you on Lipitor. I said fine being young and naïve and trusting. So I take the Lipitor, 10 mg once a day. Did this for probably ten years. Then one day I start to get a pain in my shoulder. Doctor takes an x-ray looks like you may be getting a little arthritis. Here's a script for some Ibuprofen. The pain continues and I retire and move to Florida. My new doctor decides that my Cholesterol level at 190 is too high, it needs to go lower. So now 20 mg of Lipitor once a day. I keep this up again over a 10 year period. Mean while I get more pain in different areas, lower back, legs, shoulder still hurts now and then. My Cholesterol is great, down to 136. Doctor is a happy camper. But my day starts with 800 mg of IB and a rub down of my lower back with some Blue Emule. Again mostly my fault I should have said more. I just attributed it to getting older and arthritis. The abnormal became my normal. Then one day at the six month check up and Blood Test my doctor sees something that indicates my body may not be processing the statin any more. Stop taking the statin and get another blood test. I do and what ever they looked at started to go back down. The doctor cut my usage in half and we thought every thing was fine. Until I get another blood test. In the mean time I had changed Doctors. The new Doctor looks at the results of the last blood test. he says stop taking the statin for 6 weeks and get anther blood test. Everything goes back to normal. I'm now off the statin and guess what, I have no pain in my back, no pain in my leg, I no longer have to take 800 mg of IB to start my day, no more Blue Emule. I feel great. My Cholesterol is at 194. The doctor does not like my ratio between HDL and LDL but I'll take that instead of the pain I was having. I personally will never take another statin but everyone needs to make their own decision. I have changed my diet and I'm taking Zetia to help with the Cholesterol.

[Challenger]

Just got this and felt it was worth sharing on the forum for those who are interested. It really supports so much of what we now know to be true about how the body works and how to best support it. Please don't shoot the messenger!

LW888


» World Renowned Heart Surgeon Speaks Out On What Really Causes Heart Disease (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/08/27/world-renowned-heart-surgeon-speaks-out-on-what-really-causes-heart-disease/)

Google Dwight LUndell--You may not want to take his advice seriously after reading about his history

[Barefoot]

A Skeptical Look at Dwight Lundell, M.D. (http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/lundell.html)
The author's license was revoked for malpractice.

Based on Kitty's link, do you think he is a visionary or an opportunist?

[Challenger]

Based on Kitty's link, do you think he is a visionary or an opportunist?

How about "dangerous"?

[slipcovers]

I just googled Dr Stephen Barrett, he is a well known quack and a physiciatrist. Check him out. This is the author on Dr Lundell? Give me a break.

[lightworker888]

Remember that those that go against the "system" will be ridiculed and scorned by those who are in the system. It may take a while longer for the truth of what he is saying to filter down to mainstream thinking. For me, I go with what feels right for me and fits into my current "reality", whatever that may be at the time. I just know that for me what he is saying makes more sense and fits into the paradigm that has worked for me these past 35+ yrs since I began this journey of learning self responsibility.

LW888

[kittygilchrist]

I just googled Dr Stephen Barrett, he is a well known quack and a physiciatrist. Check him out. This is the author on Dr Lundell? Give me a break.

Stephen Barrett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Barrett)

Could you provide a link to what you read?
Wiki is I admit not the greatest site, but they have nothing to discredit Dr. Barrett.

Here are documents of revoked license 2008 and bankruptcy, 2005 for Lundell. So is he actually an MD, or not?

http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/lundell/order_2008.pdf

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/lundell/ch7.pdf

[slipcovers]

Kitty, All I did was google his name,Dr Stephen Barrett. I don't know how to post a link. Must have my little grandson show me sometime. Lol. If you scroll down past wiki to other links, like quack pot.

[Steve9930]

Just remember the Atkins Diet and what the main stream said about DR. Atkins then and what they say now.

[graciegirl]

Statins have saved so many lives. I will rely on the traditional medical community for my advice.

I think that exercise, low fat, and a variety of fruits and vegetables helps your heart, but genetics is a factor in clogged arteries.

I also just love Lightworker who brings sunshine everywhere she goes and always makes me feel better. However I am not a fan of alternative medicine and supplements.

[lightworker888]

DH just reminded me about how much our beliefs and paradigms and history influence our way of moving in the world. That is probably why things that work for some people don't work for others. I am just sharing the information that comes across my desk with those who might resonate with the info. Those with whom it doesn't resonate, just ignore it.


LW888

[FreedomToGo]

I would recommend the book, "It Starts with Food," by the creators of the Whole9.

[Villages PL]

Just got this and felt it was worth sharing on the forum for those who are interested. It really supports so much of what we now know to be true about how the body works and how to best support it. Please don't shoot the messenger!

LW888


» World Renowned Heart Surgeon Speaks Out On What Really Causes Heart Disease (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/08/27/world-renowned-heart-surgeon-speaks-out-on-what-really-causes-heart-disease/)

Right now I don't have time to study the whole article carefully but I see some misleading information and some good information. For one thing, a lot of people, during the 60s, 70s, and 80s never followed any such low fat diet. It was a certain percentage of the population but I lived through those years and never heard anyone recommend it.

Other than myself, no one I knew took the low fat diet seriously. Yes, I did take it seriously and cut down on fat. But at the same time I did eat lean meat that did contain some fat. So, was I in danger of eating too many starchy carbs and gaining weight? No! My BMI at the time was about 19.

To be continued:

[PR1234]

Remember that those that go against the "system" will be ridiculed and scorned by those who are in the system. It may take a while longer for the truth of what he is saying to filter down to mainstream thinking. For me, I go with what feels right for me and fits into my current "reality", whatever that may be at the time. I just know that for me what he is saying makes more sense and fits into the paradigm that has worked for me these past 35+ yrs since I began this journey of learning self responsibility.

LW888

Lightworker you are my kind of woman!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

According to this article, 96% of people in these studies showed no benefit at all after taking statins for 5 years. So the myth that statins save a lot of lives is just that, a myth.

In fact statins have been linked to muscular atrophy, diabetes and dementia.

The Diet-Heart Myth: Statins Don't Save Lives in People Without Heart Disease (http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-statins-dont-save-lives-in-people-without-heart-disease)

[lynxville]

I know a number of people that go on Atkins I believe, the meat diet, and cholesterol went down on hot dog diet. Go figure. I take Omega 3 fat, recommended by cardiologist, so who knows what to believe. But as a long time user of statins, they do have side effects.

[Uptown Girl]

Lightworker you are my kind of woman!

Ditto!

[Blessed2BNTV]

Lightworker you are my kind of woman!

Me too! Thank you for your posts!

[Villages PL]

Just remember the Atkins Diet and what the main stream said about DR. Atkins then and what they say now.



To find out what the main stream thinks of the Atkins diet do a yahoo search as follows: Atkins Facts - Expert Opinions

[Villages PL]

According to this article, 96% of people in these studies showed no benefit at all after taking statins for 5 years. So the myth that statins save a lot of lives is just that, a myth.

In fact statins have been linked to muscular atrophy, diabetes and dementia.

The Diet-Heart Myth: Statins Don't Save Lives in People Without Heart Disease (http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-statins-dont-save-lives-in-people-without-heart-disease)

Good points about statins. I have never recommended the widespread use of cholesterol lowering drugs. I believe in most cases your body will produce the cholesterol it needs and a healthy lifestyle will call for your liver to produce less than it would under conditions of an unhealthy lifestyle.
So the message is: Live a healthy lifestyle!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Good points about statins. I have never recommended the widespread use of cholesterol lowering drugs. I believe in most cases your body will produce the cholesterol it needs and a healthy lifestyle will call for your liver to produce less than it would under conditions of an unhealthy lifestyle.
So the message is: Live a healthy lifestyle!

Easy enough if everyone could agree on exactly what a healthy lifestyle is.

[Steve9930]

To find out what the main stream thinks of the Atkins diet do a yahoo search as follows: Atkins Facts - Expert Opinions

I've used the Atkins Diet on a number of occasions. It works and it actually made me feel pretty good. However after awhile it gets boring. At first it is fun, all the meat you care to eat. I did it with my Doctors Blessing. His only comment is don't stay on it for a long time.

I've come to the conclusion, my health is my problem. The best physician is the one that looks at me in the mirror every morning. Over the years there have been all kinds of statements from the medical profession on what you should or should not eat, what vitamins you should be taking, what medications they believe should be prescribed, etc, etc, etc. Some of it was correct and some of it was nonsense. If you pay attention to your body and what it is telling you, you can go a long way to being healthier. I can tell by the way I feel whether I've eaten something that was not particularly good for me, or eaten too much food, or too much fat, or too much sugar, or been a bit lazy about getting any exercise.

I used to think that any doctor was a good doctor, not any more. I ask questions, I do research on my own. In the end its your decision on what you should or should not do with your body and how you take care of it.

[lightworker888]

QUOTE=Steve9930;952469]I've used the Atkins Diet on a number of occasions. It works and it actually made me feel pretty good. However after awhile it gets boring. At first it is fun, all the meat you care to eat. I did it with my Doctors Blessing. His only comment is don't stay on it for a long time.

I've come to the conclusion, my health is my problem. The best physician is the one that looks at me in the mirror every morning. Over the years there have been all kinds of statements from the medical profession on what you should or should not eat, what vitamins you should be taking, what medications they believe should be prescribed, etc, etc, etc. Some of it was correct and some of it was nonsense. If you pay attention to your body and what it is telling you, you can go a long way to being healthier. I can tell by the way I feel whether I've eaten something that was not particularly good for me, or eaten too much food, or too much fat, or too much sugar, or been a bit lazy about getting any exercise.

I used to think that any doctor was a good doctor, not any more. I ask questions, I do research on my own. In the end its your decision on what you should or should not do with your body and how you take care of it.[/QUOTE]




Amen to that.You are the only one inside your body who can feel what is going on. Everyone would benefit from learning to listen to their body. It is talking to you all the time! You just need to pay attention and the more you pay atention the more messages you will understand. Enjoy the process!

LW888

[Villages PL]

Easy enough if everyone could agree on exactly what a healthy lifestyle is.

Here's some information that might help to decide that question. I have a book at home with a copyright date of 1993. It's, "Food Your Miracle Medicine" by Jean Carper.

In this book she tells about a "new" theory of how LDL cholesterol becomes a problem, by Dr. Steinberg and others. It's a long complicated process so I have put it in my own words and shortened it to make it more understandable. It goes like this:

LDL cholesterol becomes oxidized by colliding with free radicals in the blood, thereby becoming "toxic oxidized LDL." Dr. Steinberg has stated that it's not how much LDL you have in your blood but how much of it becomes oxidized. Oxidized LDL is capable of clogging arteries.

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Conclusion: The way to fight this toxic transformation is by consuming foods rich in antioxidants. What foods are rich in antioxidants? Fresh fruits and a wide variety of non-starchy vegetables. Animal protein does not contain any antioxidants and neither does high calorie animal fat such as butter etc.

Animal Protein & Fat: A high protein, high fat diet can cause blood pH to become excessively acidic thereby causing inflammation. And inflamed arteries will promote coronary artery disease. "Acidity and inflammation go hand in hand." (From the book, "The Ultimate pH solution")

So you have the oxidation theory and the inflammation theory but I don't think they are opposed to each other. I think they both work together.

Questions: Does the high protein/fat diet ignore the fact that acidity causes inflammation? And does it also ignore the fact that a high protein/fat diet displaces many of the alkaline foods such as certain fruits and vegetables? I think it does and that's where it falls short, it's not comprehensive enough. It correctly complains about refined carbohydrates but does not acknowledge animal protein as having an acidic effect on the body.

Note We have been told that whole eggs (dietary cholesterol) don't raise your cholesterol, so go ahead and eat all the eggs you want. But we have not been told that eggs are acid forming in the body. And an overly acidic body will cause inflammation. And inflammation in turn can cause coronary artery disease. Perhaps a couple of poached or soft boiled eggs in the morning can be part of a healthy diet but should be balanced with large amounts of fresh fruits and non-starchy vegetables. It depends on the individual, family history etc.. Just beware that a high protein diet has its risks.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Here's some information that might help to decide that question. I have a book at home with a copyright date of 1993. It's, "Food Your Miracle Medicine" by Jean Carper.

In this book she tells about a "new" theory of how LDL cholesterol becomes a problem, by Dr. Steinberg and others. It's a long complicated process so I have put it in my own words and shortened it to make it more understandable. It goes like this:

LDL cholesterol becomes oxidized by colliding with free radicals in the blood, thereby becoming "toxic oxidized LDL." Dr. Steinberg has stated that it's not how much LDL you have in your blood but how much of it becomes oxidized. Oxidized LDL is capable of clogging arteries.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: The way to fight this toxic transformation is by consuming foods rich in antioxidants. What foods are rich in antioxidants? Fresh fruits and a wide variety of non-starchy vegetables. Animal protein does not contain any antioxidants and neither does high calorie animal fat such as butter etc.

Animal Protein & Fat: A high protein, high fat diet can cause blood pH to become excessively acidic thereby causing inflammation. And inflamed arteries will promote coronary artery disease. "Acidity and inflammation go hand in hand." (From the book, "The Ultimate pH solution")

So you have the oxidation theory and the inflammation theory but I don't think they are opposed to each other. I think they both work together.

Questions: Does the high protein/fat diet ignore the fact that acidity causes inflammation? And does it also ignore the fact that a high protein/fat diet displaces many of the alkaline foods such as certain fruits and vegetables? I think it does and that's where it falls short, it's not comprehensive enough. It correctly complains about refined carbohydrates but does not acknowledge animal protein as having an acidic effect on the body.

Note We have been told that whole eggs (dietary cholesterol) don't raise your cholesterol, so go ahead and eat all the eggs you want. But we have not been told that eggs are acid forming in the body. And an overly acidic body will cause inflammation. And inflammation in turn can cause coronary artery disease. Perhaps a couple of poached or soft boiled eggs in the morning can be part of a healthy diet but should be balanced with large amounts of fresh fruits and non-starchy vegetables. It depends on the individual, family history etc.. Just beware that a high protein diet has its risks.

My point exactly. We can never all agree on what is a healthy diet. Fruit raises you blood sugar level very rapidly causing your triglyceride levels to rise turning your blood into sludge. Also sugar is inflammatory as is gluten.

We can go back and forth on this forever as the doctors do. You feel that you have the answer and that's good for you. There a many experts in the field that feel very strongly that they have the answer and many of them disagree.

[Polar Bear]

///

[Barefoot]

We can go back and forth on this forever as the doctors do ....... There a many experts in the field that feel very strongly that they have the answer and many of them disagree.

I agree that there is no one right answer. Our bodies are all very different.
If you listen to your body, you can figure out which foods make you feel energetic, healthy and happy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Lightworker posted:

"I used to think that any doctor was a good doctor, not any more. I ask questions, I do research on my own.
In the end its your decision on what you should or should not do with your body and how you take care of it
.... you are the one inside your body who can feel what is going on.
Everyone would benefit from learning to listen to their body. It is talking to you all the time!
You just need to pay attention, and the more you pay attention the more messages you will understand. "

[Villages PL]

My point exactly. We can never all agree on what is a healthy diet. Fruit raises you blood sugar level very rapidly causing your triglyceride levels to rise turning your blood into sludge. Also sugar is inflammatory as is gluten.

Is there any credible doctor saying that a high protein diet is not acidic and not potentially inflammatory? What doctors go back and forth on this?

We can go back and forth on this forever as the doctors do. You feel that you have the answer and that's good for you. There a many experts in the field that feel very strongly that they have the answer and many of them disagree.

Then, essentially, do you feel that the field of nutrition should be shut down? Should universities be offering degrees in nutrition if there's too much disagreement? I say there's plenty of agreement on the basics.

There's no harm done in going back and forth because it may be a learning experience. The problem is when some people shut out opposing views altogether by only reading the books that agree with the foods they like.

If you read the Glucose Revolution or any book similar to it, you will find that you can eat some fruit without raising your blood sugar too much. Of course some people may be sensitive to the sugar in fruit if they already have diabetes, especially type 1. But when we talk on this board about a good diet we are not talking about a diet that will suit every person who may already have one disease or another, that would be impossible.

Certainly the Okinawan elders have a reputation for being among the healthiest, longest lived people in the world, and they eat very little fruit. But they compensate by eating lots of vegetables, whole grains and very little animal protein.

Show me a study of a large population of people anywhere in the world that eats a diet high in animal protein and animal fat that enjoys excellent health and longevity. (Not a small group or tribe.) To my knowledge there's no such population of people.

You can't go back and forth if there's no "forth". :icon_wink:

Anyway, I thought this board was for discussion. If not, why was this thread started?

[Villages PL]

I agree that there is no one right answer. Our bodies are all very different.
If you listen to your body, you can figure out which foods make you feel energetic, healthy and happy.

That's absurd. The average healthy person has most things in common with all other healthy people. For example, junk food promotes poor health. Where's the exception to that? Also, the average healthy (active) person requires a certain amount of protein and calories based on height and weight. Any variation would be minor. We are more alike than we are different.

As Lightworker posted:

"I used to think that any doctor was a good doctor, not any more. I ask questions, I do research on my own.
In the end its your decision on what you should or should not do with your body and how you take care of it
.... you are the one inside your body who can feel what is going on.
Everyone would benefit from learning to listen to their body. It is talking to you all the time!
You just need to pay attention, and the more you pay attention the more messages you will understand. "

Is that right? If so, let's hear some examples of it. I once talked to a woman who believed that and she said she listened to her body too. If she craved ice cream, she ate ice cream because she figured her body must need it. If she craved potato chips she ate potato chips, if she craved soda she drank soda.

Isn't that what the overweight and obese are already doing, listening to their body tell them they need more high calorie processed foods? And that makes up two thirds of the population. Boy, that's great advice....listen to your body.

[Polar Bear]

...The problem is when some people shut out opposing views altogether...


Did you really just say that?!?

[Barefoot]

Anyway, I thought this board was for discussion. If not, why was this thread started?


That's absurd. The average healthy person has most things in common with all other healthy people. Boy, that's great advice....listen to your body.

I agree with your post that this board is for discussion. That's why I find it strange that you are calling my ideas absurd. :ohdear:
Is it only your ideas that have validity and should be discussed?

You talked about one woman listening to her body and eating "junk food". That is your "proof" that a mind/body connection doesn't work. I think she was giving into cravings, not listening to her body. I'm not sure whether you have an opinion on meditation as a way of focusing on a mind/body connection. And because you find my ideas absurd, I don't think I'll explore the topic any further.

[Polar Bear]

I agree with your post that this board is for discussion. That's why I find it strange that you are calling my ideas absurd. :ohdear:
Is it only your ideas that have validity and should be discussed...


Nail...on...head. :)

[Happydaz]

Opinions expressed here are by the general population in The Villages. There are no controlled scientific studies being discussed here. I would rather talk to my physician and get his view on the best options for me. If many of the current, recommended life style choices and medications don't work why are Americans living longer? Back in the "healthy olden days" people died in their 40's 50's and 60's. The average person retired from IBM was expected to collect his pension for three years or so. Social Security recipients were expected to die in their late sixties or early seventies. Why are there so many men and women living into their eighties and nineties today? Pet theories by health enthusiasts have been around for years. I would rather put my faith in the professional medical field. Medicine is science, not philosophy.

[lightworker888]

VPL

Listen to your body doesn't mean don't do the research and eat what you know is junk! From personal experience and from what I have read, as the body cleanses and the messages that the body sends are being heard, then the body being supported to do what it is designed to do (move toward health) will continue to send messages.

The problem seems to be that when the messages are ignored, and the person continues to eat "poorly", the body messages can't be "heard" and more physical damage gets done. The person gets used to a certain level of "discomfort" and it becomes "normal" and the body has to up the intensity of the message.

So the down side of detoxing and cleansing is that the body becomes more aware of the "toxins" that enter and the person develops more sensitive to "regular" food, which is the stuff that the SAD is made up of.

This is very simplistic and generalized but you get the idea. So when I say listen to your body, I am referring to the ability to notice when you feel a bit off and see it there might be a connection to the food you just ate. Of course there is a huge emotional piece and a historic/tribal/ genetic component that also contributes to our eating patterns etc. but that is another story!

I have left out so much that I am hesitant to post this and if anyone can elaborate on this theme I hope that they will chime in. The bottom line for me is that you are the only one who "hears" the messages your body sends, and you are the one who lives with the consequences of the choices that you make about what goes into your mouth.

BTW I just got a Magic Dessert Bullet, so that I could get my fruit in small quantities but in a very enjoyable form. I have not eaten much fruit lately as I am watching the amount of fruit sugar, but I know that the antioxidants are needed. So this has satisfied that part of me that wants and enjoys some fruit, particularly in this form. I'll just have to watch that I don't over do it as it could be easy to make more than I need.

LW888

[graciegirl]

The next time you have a cardiac ultrasound, ask what you EF is. It should be between 50 and 70. This shows the strength the heart has to push blood through it.

Exercise and your lucky genetics when it comes to cholesterol levels increases your chances of good cardiac health.

Cutting back on the serving size of protein and increasing your intake of fruits and vegetables will make you healthier as will decreasing fat.

If you cannot get your cholesterol level below 200, it is time to consider the use of statins.

[Gary7]

I believe there is not one healthy diet solution for everyone.

Medical conditions, like diabetes, etc., prescriptions, like prednisone, and genetics can wreak havok with our body.
Yes, I agree a proper diet and exercise is important ... but some things unfortunately we cannot control.

Great topic by the way.

[Villages PL]

Did you really just say that?!?

Yes, I did say that because I have read books on high protein high fat diets and I have actually tried a high protein diet. And I took the time to read information that was against veganism.

How many here, arguing against me, have read a book on veganism and actually tried it? How many have taken the time to read information that goes against high protein diets?

[Villages PL]

I agree that there is no one right answer. Our bodies are all very different.
If you listen to your body, you can figure out which foods make you feel energetic, healthy and happy.

The reason I said it was absurd is because you were speaking in vague general terms. You assume everyone knows what you're talking about. Perhaps if you gave some concrete examples, it might make some sense.

When I talk about a healthy diet, it's not intended to suit everyone, especially the many special needs people who are already suffering from some disease. If it is intended for a special needs person, I will say so.

But your statement above leaves it all up to the imagination. What do you mean when you say, "Our bodies are all very different.? Different in what way? Give an example.

Give me an example of "foods [that] make you feel energetic, healthy and happy."

[graciegirl]

Yes, I did say that because I have read books on high protein high fat diets and I have actually tried a high protein diet. And I took the time to read information that was against veganism.

How many here, arguing against me, have read a book on veganism and actually tried it? How many have taken the time to read information that goes against high protein diets?


Well here is an answer. Over time, you have had a frequent poster on your frequent threads who is a microbiologist, one that is a pediatrician, one that is currently working for the federal government as an MD, seven R.N.s two chemistry teachers, one home economics teacher and one biology teacher, all retired. Not to mention the very well read people who are economists, lawyers, and those who have had stellar military careers and other successful people who are very well read.. We who live here come with varied backgrounds and that is why you get so much argument. You are reading not entirely current books from the library, while other sources give us information that is cutting edge and very up to date. (Such as valid scientific television shows.)Anyone can write a book on nutrition, in fact on anything.

Aside from that. I think most of us are not evangelistic about our diets. I think that if you are right about all you say, you will be here. all alone, outliving all of us. I know you will attack that last sentence... being I meant that part in jest. It seems to be your mission to debate miniscule remarks about this subject.

I think it is akin to over selling. If it works, people will see you glowing with health, out on a dragon boat or running the multimedia paths or dancing at the squares and ask you...WHAT IS YOUR SECRET????

P.S. I have read The China Study.

[Villages PL]

Nail...on...head. :)

When have you ever participated in one of these discussions about health? You only show up as a cheerleader for those who speak out against me. Is that a discussion?

[pbkmaine]

First, I'd like to say I am not a medical person. I just read a lot. I have read books from The Paleo Diet to Mayim's Vegan Table. I don't have an agenda. I am just really interested in getting to the bottom of what's healthy for us to eat. I have read studies of healthy, long-living populations. Here's the conclusion I have come to: the healthiest groups of people eat mostly fresh, unprocessed food. Whether they eat meat or not, they eat lots of fruits and vegetables. Sugar and other simple carbs, like white flour, are a small part of the diet. To me, this means that The Cinnabon Diet is not a good idea, much as I would like it to be. How I apply this to my own life is to go to the Farmers' Markets in the Squares and spend with abandon. And I try not to beat myself up when I have a piece of apple pie.

[Polar Bear]

When have you ever participated in one of these discussions about health? You only show up as a cheerleader for those who speak out against me. Is that a discussion?

I have participated. And if you call my support of some with whom you disagree being a "cheerleader", so be it. It's far more of a discussion than constant, close-minded proselytizing.

[Villages PL]

Opinions expressed here are by the general population in The Villages. There are no controlled scientific studies being discussed here. I would rather talk to my physician and get his view on the best options for me. If many of the current, recommended life style choices and medications don't work why are Americans living longer? Back in the "healthy olden days" people died in their 40's 50's and 60's. The average person retired from IBM was expected to collect his pension for three years or so. Social Security recipients were expected to die in their late sixties or early seventies. Why are there so many men and women living into their eighties and nineties today? Pet theories by health enthusiasts have been around for years. I would rather put my faith in the professional medical field. Medicine is science, not philosophy.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I have a relative on my family tree who was born in 1850 and died in 1956. And my grandfather, who was born around 1875, lived to 97. My grandmother lived to 89 and had a sister who lived to 100. Part of the reason for a higher life expectancy is that infant mortality has been reduced. And another part of the reason might be because people are being propped up with medical interventions, which doesn't always make for a healthy life expectancy.

There have been many large controlled scientific studies but it's not easy to discuss them all here, especially due to the fact that no one seems interested enough to actually read them. If people would read them, then they could be discussed. The China Study, The Okinawa Program, The Seventh Day Adventist study, The Mediterranean Diet study, The ongoing AARP Health Study and The Nurses Health Study.

[Villages PL]

I have participated. And if you call my support of some with whom you disagree being a "cheerleader", so be it. It's far more of a discussion than constant, close-minded proselytizing.

What diet do you support, other than drinking a lot of beer? Do you think having a big beer belly is healthy? Isn't that why you have a big chip on your shoulder?

[Villages PL]

Well here is an answer. Over time, you have had a frequent poster on your frequent threads who is a microbiologist, one that is a pediatrician, one that is currently working for the federal government as an MD, seven R.N.s two chemistry teachers, one home economics teacher and one biology teacher, all retired. Not to mention the very well read people who are economists, lawyers, and those who have had stellar military careers and other successful people who are very well read.. We who live here come with varied backgrounds and that is why you get so much argument. You are reading not entirely current books from the library, while other sources give us information that is cutting edge and very up to date. (Such as valid scientific television shows.)Anyone can write a book on nutrition, in fact on anything.

Aside from that. I think most of us are not evangelistic about our diets. I think that if you are right about all you say, you will be here. all alone, outliving all of us. I know you will attack that last sentence... being I meant that part in jest. It seems to be your mission to debate miniscule remarks about this subject.

I think it is akin to over selling. If it works, people will see you glowing with health, out on a dragon boat or running the multimedia paths or dancing at the squares and ask you...WHAT IS YOUR SECRET????

P.S. I have read The China Study.

Nice of you to answer for Polar Bear but you went of topic by making me the subject. You didn't say beans about the topic. If you actually read The China Study you should be able to do better than change the subject. By the way, if you read The China Study, do you have an "unhealthy fixation" on health as you often accuse me of having?

And as far as all the Bull about all the professionals you mentioned above, I say bring them on!!!! It would be a welcome relief!

[graciegirl]

Nice of you to answer for Polar Bear but you went of topic by making me the subject. You didn't say beans about the topic. If you actually read The China Study you should be able to do better than change the subject. By the way, if you read The China Study, do you have an "unhealthy fixation" on health as you often accuse me of having?

And as far as all the Bull about all the professionals you mentioned above, I say bring them on!!!! It would be a welcome relief!

They have been brought on, over and over they have all debated you, and you pay no attention to their views.

[graciegirl]

What diet do you support, other than drinking a lot of beer? Do you think having a big beer belly is healthy? Isn't that why you have a big chip on your shoulder?


Polar Bear looks nothing like his avatar and does not drink a lot of beer. When we dined with the Bears, he took one glass of wine. Neither Mr. OR Mrs. Bear is overweight. In fact, Polar Bear is very tall and slender and could have been the center for the Celtics. Be nice!

[Villages PL]

VPL

Listen to your body doesn't mean don't do the research and eat what you know is junk! From personal experience and from what I have read, as the body cleanses and the messages that the body sends are being heard, then the body being supported to do what it is designed to do (move toward health) will continue to send messages.

The problem, as I see it, is that the average (overweight and sick) person isn't doing the research. And when they get sick, they don't read the message(s) correctly, they blame it on their genes.

The problem seems to be that when the messages are ignored, and the person continues to eat "poorly", the body messages can't be "heard" and more physical damage gets done. The person gets used to a certain level of "discomfort" and it becomes "normal" and the body has to up the intensity of the message.

So the down side of detoxing and cleansing is that the body becomes more aware of the "toxins" that enter and the person develops more sensitive to "regular" food, which is the stuff that the SAD is made up of.

This is very simplistic and generalized but you get the idea. So when I say listen to your body, I am referring to the ability to notice when you feel a bit off and see it there might be a connection to the food you just ate. Of course there is a huge emotional piece and a historic/tribal/ genetic component that also contributes to our eating patterns etc. but that is another story!

I have left out so much that I am hesitant to post this and if anyone can elaborate on this theme I hope that they will chime in. The bottom line for me is that you are the only one who "hears" the messages your body sends, and you are the one who lives with the consequences of the choices that you make about what goes into your mouth.

BTW I just got a Magic Dessert Bullet, so that I could get my fruit in small quantities but in a very enjoyable form. I have not eaten much fruit lately as I am watching the amount of fruit sugar, but I know that the antioxidants are needed. So this has satisfied that part of me that wants and enjoys some fruit, particularly in this form. I'll just have to watch that I don't over do it as it could be easy to make more than I need.

LW888

You mentioned that you once tried the Atkins diet but stopped because it's only good for a short period of time to achieve weight loss. Does that mean you're not on a high protein high fat diet anymore? What's your diet like on a typical day?

Note: I have some information that says a high protein diet is not even good for short term weight loss.

[Villages PL]

They have been brought on, over and over they have all debated you, and you pay no attention to their views.

Then their views couldn't have been worth very much if they gave up so easily. Some, if not most, of those that you mentioned have very little training in nutrition, other than to say not to eat a certain food if you're on this or that medication.

[sunnyatlast]

……..And another part of the reason might be because people are being propped up with medical interventions, which doesn't always make for a healthy life expectancy.

There have been many large controlled scientific studies but it's not easy to discuss them all here, especially due to the fact that no one seems interested enough to actually read them. If people would read them, then they could be discussed. The China Study, The Okinawa Program, The Seventh Day Adventist study, The Mediterranean Diet study, The ongoing AARP Health Study and The Nurses Health Study.

I don't think we need large scientific studies to know how to eat, when I've watched all 4 of my grandparents and each of their 9+ siblings live on meat, potatoes, gravy made from drippings, bacon and eggs fried in the fat, and whole milk live till they were over 80 and none had heart disease or cancer, except one who smoked like a chimney and clearly died of self-induced lung cancer, COPD and emphysema. My parents, ages 87 and 85 are alive and healthy on that same diet but making conscious efforts to maintain a healthy weight, neither too fat nor too skinny.

At the same time, other families living on the same diet had clearcut tendencies of earlier death due to heart disease and cancers. Genetics cannot be ignored. One thing I notice in the other families in my hometown is that many married people from the same nation/provincial areas they or their parents came from, maybe concentrating the recessive genes. My grandparents and great grandparents married immigrants from different nations (Germany, Scandinavia, Great Britain, etc.) and maybe the gene mixture helped.

[Moderator]

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