Non US citizens voting in national elections?

[billethkid]

Does the title of the thread concern or bother anybody but me?

Read this article:

Could non-citizens decide the November election? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/)

Now what do you think about non US citizens voting in national (or any other) elections?

I do not have all the information I need yet, however on the surface it is not appropriate for NON US CITIZENS to vote. How do they get registered in the first place?

There must be something I obviously do not understand.
Party lines need not be espoused. I just want to understand how it is non US citizens are allowed to vote.

And I am sure I will not be the only one who is concerned about the abuse that is potential in such a system.

[dbussone]

There was a report on the news this regarding this very issue in NC. Apparently a significant number of illegals (reported to be approximately 4000) were given the ability to vote when processed for their NC drivers license.

[ugotme]

Not only the potential but, as indicated, already goi!ng on.

Where is the screening? Perhaps seperate DL's for non-citizens?

Somehow must be able to prove citizenship?

Can not really converse on this - never really looked into it!

[TheVillageChicken]

What about the folks who vote in two different states? I'll bet some of them are reading this thread.

What about the "Voting Dead?"

[Polar Bear]

Like the old Chicago cliche...vote early, vote often. :)

[tedquick]

Non US citizens voting in national elections?

Non-citizens being allowed to vote adds one more nail to our nation's coffin. Although I am not a historian, I do not know of another country in world history that has spiraled downward as quickly as ours has these last 6 years.

[manaboutown]

We have been circling the drain for the past six years.

[jflynn1]

I do not think we have to worry based on this article and report based on the responses of only 828 self-reported non-citizens.

[njbchbum]

The vote of a non-citizen invalidates the vote of a citizen.

[njbchbum]

I do not think we have to worry based on this article and report based on the responses of only 828 self-reported non-citizens.

Please do an internet search on illegals voting in us elections or non-citizens voting in us elections and I hope reading the articles gives you greater pause to re-think the issue and why folks should worry.

Florida seems to pop-up in a number of such articles!

[redwitch]

Sadly, this has been going a lot longer than just the past six years. It became an issue the day states let individuals register to vote when obtaining a driver's license. Proof of citizenship seemed not to be an issue. When I moved here twelve years ago, the DMV knew I wasn't born in the U.S. But was still willing to register with no proof I was eligible. Look how many convicted felons now vote. Can't blame everything on this administration.

[billethkid]

we the people should be demanding our lawmakers go forward with strict voter identification at the polls. This would not only weed out the non citizens but would also catch what ever number of other kinds of cheating.

I have no sympathy for the politically driven excuses of who this type voter ID might affect negatively....mostly the incumbents!!!!!

There are all kinds of ways to make sure everybody who is a legal citizen of the USA gets what ever they need to vote. Let's not have the politicians continue to keep the system loose and undisciplined.

Why is this country so :censored: timid about ENFORCEMENT???

Core values continue to sink to new lows every single year. Our freedoms are being choked down right before our eyes. We have even re-defined what is illegal or not. We continue to ban everyday words, phrases or sayings that have been a part of our culture since the conception of this country.

I am glad I came through America when I did and I am concerned how my grandchildren and those that follow will never savor the freedom and greatness America once was.

Back to the voting......it is quite simple if one is not a US citizen....no vote!!!
If one cannot show identification at the polls that one is who they say they are and a legal citizen.....no vote!!!! How much easier can it be than that?

[sunnyatlast]

Here's a report cited by some of the main news outlets online.

"They are working in tandem to decouple the legal standing to vote from American citizenship.

As a result of these efforts, there are several municipalities in the United States that currently allow non-citizens to vote in local elections. Moreover, legislation to allow non-citizens to vote has been introduced in a number of states and localities including Washington, D.C., San Francisco, and New York City."

Allowing Non-Citizens to Vote in the United States? Why Not | Center for Immigration Studies (http://cis.org/NoncitizenVoting)

[Sandtrap328]

Here's a report cited by some of the main news outlets online.

"They are working in tandem to decouple the legal standing to vote from American citizenship.

As a result of these efforts, there are several municipalities in the United States that currently allow non-citizens to vote in local elections. Moreover, legislation to allow non-citizens to vote has been introduced in a number of states and localities including Washington, D.C., San Francisco, and New York City."

Allowing Non-Citizens to Vote in the United States? Why Not | Center for Immigration Studies (http://cis.org/NoncitizenVoting)


Nothing at all wrong with allowing non-citizens to vote in local elections. The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents and deserve a say in their local issues. Do not confuse non-citizens with illegals.

[sunnyatlast]

Nothing at all wrong with allowing non-citizens to vote in local elections. The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents and deserve a say in their local issues. Do not confuse non-citizens with illegals.

It's not about just local elections.

[dbussone]

Nothing at all wrong with allowing non-citizens to vote in local elections. The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents and deserve a say in their local issues. Do not confuse non-citizens with illegals.

Holy smokes. They aren't citizens, why should they have a say. Can you name any other country that allows this?

[janmcn]

Anybody who has gotten a Florida driver's license lately knows it is not an easy endeavor. The new law (effective Jan 1, 2010) requires that you bring in your original birth certificate. If you have had a name change, you must present a marriage license or divorce decree, social security card, two utility bills with your current address listed. This information is listed at gathergoget.com.


New Florida driver's license rules frustrate a confused public | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/new-florida-drivers-license-rules-frustrate-a-confused-public/1075902)

[sunnyatlast]

Anybody who has gotten a Florida driver's license lately knows it is not an easy endeavor. The new law (effective Jan 1, 2010) requires that you bring in your original birth certificate. If you have had a name change, you must present a marriage license or divorce decree, social security card, two utility bills with your current address listed. This information is listed at gathergoget.com.


New Florida driver's license rules frustrate a confused public | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/new-florida-drivers-license-rules-frustrate-a-confused-public/1075902)

Passport works best. That takes care of the marriage license part.

[redwitch]

I don't see it as a timidity to enforce but rather a laziness. It is easier and cheaper to register voters when they get a license or ID card. If all you have to do is say you're eligible, there is something seriously wrong with that system. Yet, that's exactly what is happening. No proof of citizenship required. Your word is good enough. BARF!!!

Voting should be the right of the citizens of a nation, not those who just happen to live there.

[Chi-Town]

Non US citizens voting in national elections?

Non-citizens being allowed to vote adds one more nail to our nation's coffin. Although I am not a historian, I do not know of another country in world history that has spiraled downward as quickly as ours has these last 6 years.
You don't have to be a historian to look at Iraq, Libya, or Syria. Or perhaps Germany during Hitler. Rather than going on and on let's just say that you never had it so good. Be happy, you're in The Villages.

[Bay Kid]

We are turning into a 3rd world country. No trust in our leaders. What happened to us???

[Topspinmo]

More Dead people voting than alive! in some areas. :clap2::1rotfl:


"Can't blame everything on this administration". No but they do nothing to stop in and the one that benefits from it. :duck:

I like the term Honorable Sen. so and so.. What oxymoron! NOTHING honorable about two faced crooks that we vote in for YEARS.:boom:

elections are no more than who can smear the other and get away with it. Probably find better candidates in Prison. At least we know what they done in pass and probably more HONORABLE. :ho:

Bottom line NOBODY illegal, alien, undocumented, non-citizen (what ever else the D##o party can name them) should NOT be voting on anything.:BigApplause::BigApplause: get this in before it gone.

[waynet]

can someone supply some documented proof of all of this illegal voting? How many people have been caught? Where? When? Didn't Florida spend a few million to find all of these illegal voters and come up with about 25 people. I see this as much ado about nothing.

[kittygilchrist]

can someone supply some documented proof of all of this illegal voting? How many people have been caught? Where? When? Didn't Florida spend a few million to find all of these illegal voters and come up with about 25 people. I see this as much ado about nothing.

I doubt we can trust anybody to investigate. It is quite obvious this admin is and has attempted to overrun the country with what used to be called aliens.

[janmcn]

I doubt we can trust anybody to investigate. It is quite obvious this admin is and has attempted to overrun the country with what used to be called aliens.


Elections are run by each state, not the federal government. Election Supervisors are elected in each county of Florida and answer to no one other than the voters who elected them.

[nitehawk]

We are so concerned about other counties elections - we cant control our own - dip your thumb in a bottle of ink when done voting like some countries - if our elections do not come out the way we would like - we just say it was fixed and not run properly - i guess all the mail flyers i receive keeps the po employees working wonder how many tree cut down for all of the flyers sent out throughout this great county -- well maybe it all about jobs - jobs

[kittygilchrist]

Elections are run by each state, not the federal government. Election Supervisors are elected in each county of Florida and answer to no one other than the voters who elected them.


So...you are implying each county makes up regs for who can vote? That would be absurd.

[billethkid]

can someone supply some documented proof of all of this illegal voting? How many people have been caught? Where? When? Didn't Florida spend a few million to find all of these illegal voters and come up with about 25 people. I see this as much ado about nothing.

And where do we draw the line at how many constitutes only a few? Does the rule of "few" apply elsewhere as in only a few murderers so don't pursue? Only a few cars made with faulty steering? Only a few planes crash so not to worry? Only a few does not work!

Let's make it easy for everybody....if it is wrong then it needs to be fixed/corrected/stopped/repaired.

The answer to starting to save this country from total implosion is to return to the application of right or wrong and eliminate the poor excuse for avoiding it called politically correct

[janmcn]

So...you are implying each county makes up regs for who can vote? That would be absurd.

Every Florida county Election Supervisor is responsible for making sure that the voter rolls are correct in their county. This includes removing the deceased and adding newly registered voters.

When Gov Rick Scott ordered these supervisors to purge their voting rolls in 2012, these supervisors banded together and said no.

[tedquick]

You don't have to be a historian to look at Iraq, Libya, or Syria. Or perhaps Germany during Hitler. Rather than going on and on let's just say that you never had it so good. Be happy, you're in The Villages.


I am here because I want to be here, but I love “the rest” of my country as well.

Those of us who were born in America won the most important lottery of all by the miracle of our birth location.

America became the greatest country that ever existed or that ever will as a result of a capitalistic free-market system. That system determined the winners and losers, not government bureaucrats in Washington. We the people, in the last few decades, have been giving that freedom away by sending people to Washington who have more interest in their own re-elections than in representing those who placed them there (at present I’m ignoring their thirst for power and control). They are being sent there by those who vote for the promise of “more for nothing” and those who refuse to see that long-term socialism cannot succeed (simultaneous “takers and makers” are guaranteed suicide).

BTW, this is not politics, but proven history.

[pbkmaine]

To get a driver's license here, which is needed to vote, there is a long list of required ID. The motor vehicles person checked mine extremely carefully. I can't speak for every official in Florida, but I do not believe an illegal alien would get by her.

[janmcn]

To get a driver's license here, which is needed to vote, there is a long list of required ID. The motor vehicles person checked mine extremely carefully. I can't speak for every official in Florida, but I do not believe an illegal alien would get by her.


Register to Vote - Florida Division of Elections - Department of State (http://election.dos.state.fl.us/voter-registration/voter-reg.shtml)


A Florida driver license is not required to register to vote. You can use your license for ID, or your FL ID card, or the last four digits of you social security number.

Click the link above for requirements to vote in Florida provided by the state.

[TexaninVA]

Does the title of the thread concern or bother anybody but me?

Read this article:

Could non-citizens decide the November election? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/)

Now what do you think about non US citizens voting in national (or any other) elections?

I do not have all the information I need yet, however on the surface it is not appropriate for NON US CITIZENS to vote. How do they get registered in the first place?

There must be something I obviously do not understand.
Party lines need not be espoused. I just want to understand how it is non US citizens are allowed to vote.

And I am sure I will not be the only one who is concerned about the abuse that is potential in such a system.

It absolutely bothers me ... and also makes me wonder WTF is going on with this Country.

If a non-citizen votes (and/or an illegal), as far as I know, that is against the law in all but perhaps the most wacko communities (San Francisco, Seattle or whatever).

Thus, if they break the law by voting, then indict, prosecute and deport.

Does anyone on this board seriously argue that non-citizens or illegals should be allowed to vote??

[njbchbum]

We are turning into a 3rd world country. No trust in our leaders. What happened to us???

Trust is a virtue that is earned or lost.

[njbchbum]

Elections are run by each state, not the federal government. Election Supervisors are elected in each county of Florida and answer to no one other than the voters who elected them.

Except for when a federal court steps in to halt the Florida State voter registration purge or to order the completion of the purge in Virginia??

[njbchbum]

can someone supply some documented proof of all of this illegal voting? How many people have been caught? Where? When? Didn't Florida spend a few million to find all of these illegal voters and come up with about 25 people. I see this as much ado about nothing.

Waynet - Do an internet search on purge voter rolls and you can have all of the information you seek. The purge you reference is duscussed here:

Florida halts purge of noncitizens from voter rolls | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/florida-halts-purge-of-noncitizens-from-voter-rolls/2172206)

[njbchbum]

Every Florida county Election Supervisor is responsible for making sure that the voter rolls are correct in their county. This includes removing the deceased and adding newly registered voters.

When Gov Rick Scott ordered these supervisors to purge their voting rolls in 2012, these supervisors banded together and said no.


Florida halts purge of noncitizens from voter rolls | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/florida-halts-purge-of-noncitizens-from-voter-rolls/2172206)

[blueash]

Holy smokes. They aren't citizens, why should they have a say. Can you name any other country that allows this?

United Kingdom
Portugal
Denmark
Sweden
Venezuela
Belize
Bolivia
Switzerland
Uruguay
Finland
Norway
Netherlands
Chile
Belgium
Korea
Ireland
New Zealand
Barbados
Estonia
with some variations on years in the country and other variables.

Those are the countries listed in the link provided in this thread. So you had that information available when you asked the question... Thanks for the opportunity to share it with others reading this thread.

[blueash]

It absolutely bothers me ... and also makes me wonder WTF is going on with this Country.

If a non-citizen votes (and/or an illegal), as far as I know, that is against the law in all but perhaps the most wacko communities (San Francisco, Seattle or whatever).

Thus, if they break the law by voting, then indict, prosecute and deport.

Does anyone on this board seriously argue that non-citizens or illegals should be allowed to vote??

Can you please provide a link for your assertion that San Francisco, Seattle or other "wacko communities" are allowing non-citizens to vote? Or do you just provide invective without data.

[dbussone]

Bluesh - your assertion is not quite accurate.
0: No rights (Australia by grandfathered franchise after 1984, Austria, Belgium, Costa Rica, Denmark before 1977, Finland before 1981, France, Germany except for 1989-90, Greece, Ireland before 1962, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands before 1979, Norway before 1978, Spain before 1985, Sweden before 1976, the United Kingdom before 1949, and the United States before 1968).
1: Rights granted only by subnational governments (Canada from 1975 to the present; West Germany in 1989, the Netherlands from 1979 to 1981, Switzerland from 1960 to the present, and the United States from 1968 to the present).
2: Local rights, discriminatory (Denmark from 1977 to 1980; Finland from 1981 to 1990; Israel from 1960 to the present; and Norway from 1978 to 1981).
3: National rights, discriminatory (Australia from 1960 to 1984, Canada from 1960 to 1974, Ireland from 1985 to the present, New Zealand from 1960 to 1974, Portugal, the United Kingdom).
4: Local rights, nondiscriminatory (Denmark after 1980, Finland after 1990, Hungary, Ireland 1963 to 1984, the Netherlands after 1981, Norway after 1981, Spain after 1985, Sweden after 1976).
5: National rights, nondiscriminatory (New Zealand after 1975; Uruguay for 15 years-resident, since 1952)

[billethkid]

for those presenting what other countries do, just how do you feel about it here in the USA....yes let anybody that can walk in vote......or registered, living US citizens only?

[janmcn]

If anyone knows or suspects that their foreign doctor is voting or that their neighbor is voting in two different states, it is their responsibility to notify the county Supervisor of Elections. If you see something, say something. To remain silent is just as bad as committing the crime yourself.

[rubicon]

I am here because I want to be here, but I love “the rest” of my country as well.

Those of us who were born in America won the most important lottery of all by the miracle of our birth location.

America became the greatest country that ever existed or that ever will as a result of a capitalistic free-market system. That system determined the winners and losers, not government bureaucrats in Washington. We the people, in the last few decades, have been giving that freedom away by sending people to Washington who have more interest in their own re-elections than in representing those who placed them there (at present I’m ignoring their thirst for power and control). They are being sent there by those who vote for the promise of “more for nothing” and those who refuse to see that long-term socialism cannot succeed (simultaneous “takers and makers” are guaranteed suicide).

BTW, this is not politics, but proven history.

tedquick: Well stated and citizens here who just blink and deflate will rue the day. Look all around the world and people are risking there lives for what we take for granted.

As to politicians they all way know and have known this has been going on for a long time. Far too many use it to their advantage. This ONE issue can bring down America because people are becoming too frustrated knowing election results are being massaged. Al Franken's election was classic fraud.

How do you get people to act that benefit. Perhaps we will have to resort to insisting on inked stained fingers to at least stop the multiple voting

[dbussone]

for those presenting what other countries do, just how do you feel about it here in the USA....yes let anybody that can walk in vote......or registered, living US citizens only?


I am completely opposed to any non-citizen voting in any election - local, national or otherwise for a political subdivision.

[njbchbum]

Can you please provide a link for your assertion that San Francisco, Seattle or other "wacko communities" are allowing non-citizens to vote? Or do you just provide invective without data.

An internet search reveals that there are a number of states/localities that have given voting rights to non-citizens who are residents of the community to vote in local and school elections.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Gee what could go wrong when you don't require Voter ID ! Besides Fraud of course.

[Sandtrap328]

An internet search reveals that there are a number of states/localities that have given voting rights to non-citizens who are residents of the community to vote in local and school elections.

Nothing wrong with that! The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents of that community; pay taxes, send their children to the schools, and are citizens of other countries. They get a say in what is happening locally - not nationally, of course.

[Sandtrap328]

for those presenting what other countries do, just how do you feel about it here in the USA....yes let anybody that can walk in vote......or registered, living US citizens only?

In a national election, registered US Citizens with government issued ID (which should be free to all citizens). Allow early voting and keep polling booths open until 8 pm each night so working people can vote in a timely manner.

In local elections, non-citizens who are residents of that community should be allowed to vote. Not illegal but non-citizen. Bring copy of citizenship of their country, pay stub showing FICA deduction, and utility bill in their name showing their address.

[janmcn]

Gee what could go wrong when you don't require Voter ID ! Besides Fraud of course.



Full Show: The Fight (http://billmoyers.com/episode/fight-right-vote/)


Since 2000 one billion votes have been cast with 31 cases of voter impersonation. What is that percentage?

[Matzy]

When I applied for naturalization in 2006 I was asked: "Did you ever vote in this country?" I My answer was NO and the commissioner was happy that I told the truth. He told me that everybody who's applying for citizenship will be checked prior the final interview.
I am wondering that this has been changed quietly, actually I did not pay too much attention to that case until I've read that article.

[dbussone]

Full Show: The Fight (http://billmoyers.com/episode/fight-right-vote/)





Since 2000 one billion votes have been cast with 31 cases of voter impersonation. What is that percentage?


Sorry, I personally know of more than that in Harry Reid's last senatorial campaign. And what about ACORN having been found guilty for illegal voter registration in the last Presidential campaign. Or what about the 800 voters over 164 years old who are currently on the rolls in NYC?

Open your eyes and do the research.

[mickey100]

Nothing wrong with that! The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents of that community; pay taxes, send their children to the schools, and are citizens of other countries. They get a say in what is happening locally - not nationally, of course.

Agree. If they are residents for a certain period of time, pay taxes and otherwise have an interest and involvement in the community,they should have a say.

[kittygilchrist]

Every Florida county Election Supervisor is responsible for making sure that the voter rolls are correct in their county. This includes removing the deceased and adding newly registered voters.

When Gov Rick Scott ordered these supervisors to purge their voting rolls in 2012, these supervisors banded together and said no.
Elected supers assure Correct rolls, yes, deciding what it takes to qualify one to vote, no.
I don't see the relevance of this argument with re the topic:
Should aliens vote?

[njbchbum]

Nothing wrong with that! The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents of that community; pay taxes, send their children to the schools, and are citizens of other countries. They get a say in what is happening locally - not nationally, of course.

Agree. If they are residents for a certain period of time, pay taxes and otherwise have an interest and involvement in the community,they should have a say.

If the non-citizen resident pays their federal, state, local taxes, sends their children to local schools and votes in local elections - why should they not be allowed to vote in State and Federal elections? They are doing everything that thousands of resident citizens are doing and who are voting in those elections! The non-citizen voter probably has a greater impact on the local residents life than they would have in a State/Federal election!

Why would you give a non-citizen the right to impact your life on the local level but not the State/Federal level?

Would you allow the non-citizen to run for local office, too? Why?

[janmcn]

Full Show: The Fight (http://billmoyers.com/episode/fight-right-vote/)


Since 2000 one billion votes have been cast with 31 cases of voter impersonation. What is that percentage?

Sorry, I personally know of more than that in Harry Reid's last senatorial campaign. And what about ACORN having been found guilty for illegal voter registration in the last Presidential campaign. Or what about the 800 voters over 164 years old who are currently on the rolls in NYC?

Open your eyes and do the research.



I opened my eyes and posted a link in support. Where are the links supporting your allegations?

[janmcn]

Elected supers assure Correct rolls, yes, deciding what it takes to qualify one to vote, no.
I don't see the relevance of this argument with re the topic:
Should aliens vote?

The Florida Legislature passes the laws, the courts interpret the laws and the county Election Supervisors enforce the laws. All three are relevant in the argument whether aliens should be allowed to vote.

[sunnyatlast]

So then if the 5,645 foreign students at (for example) UC Berkeley, along with all the other foreign students in U.S. colleges and universities are allowed to vote having no allegiance or permanency here, that this is right? And Californians or other states ought to go for that??

I don't think so.

[TheVillageChicken]

It would require a constitutional amendment to allow non-citizens to vote in federal elections, and that, ain't gonna happen.

[njbchbum]

It would require a constitutional amendment to allow non-citizens to vote in federal elections, and that, ain't gonna happen.

Still wondering why if people don't allow non-citizens to vote in a Federal election...why they will allow their voting in State/Local elections where the impact on the laws of their area are more directly impacted. smh

[billethkid]

for me it is easy....no interpretation....no gray....

if one is not a US citizen they do not get to vote....PERIOD!!

If they live here and pay taxes so what? They are paying for using all the amenities of living here. If they want to vote (local or federal) then let them pay the price....become a US citizen.

It is when we try to rationalize the application of rules and laws that the door opens wide for violations and lack of enforcement. A major contributor to the watered down laws we have today contributing to America's core values deterioration.

[janmcn]

for me it is easy....no interpretation....no gray....

if one is not a US citizen they do not get to vote....PERIOD!!

If they live here and pay taxes so what? They are paying for using all the amenities of living here. If they want to vote (local or federal) then let them pay the price....become a US citizen.

It is when we try to rationalize the application of rules and laws that the door opens wide for violations and lack of enforcement. A major contributor to the watered down laws we have today contributing to America's core values deterioration.



Register to Vote - Florida Division of Elections - Department of State (http://election.dos.state.fl.us/voter-registration/voter-reg.shtml)


Who can register to vote in Florida?

1 Be a US citizen

2 Be a resident of Florida


No gray area there.

[dbussone]

So then if the 5,645 foreign students at (for example) UC Berkeley, along with all the other foreign students in U.S. colleges and universities are allowed to vote having no allegiance or permanency here, that this is right? And Californians or other states ought to go for that??

I don't think so.


Back in the '60's the Town of Amherst, MA considered shortening the length of time it would take to become a legal resident...until one of town fathers figured out the change would allow the 30 thousand students attending UMass-Amherst to vote. We were already planning how to take over the town when the Town changed its mind.

[Sandtrap328]

for me it is easy....no interpretation....no gray....

if one is not a US citizen they do not get to vote....PERIOD!!

If they live here and pay taxes so what? They are paying for using all the amenities of living here. If they want to vote (local or federal) then let them pay the price....become a US citizen.

It is when we try to rationalize the application of rules and laws that the door opens wide for violations and lack of enforcement. A major contributor to the watered down laws we have today contributing to America's core values deterioration.

Well, you are entitled to you opinion. It certainly does not hold water in some communities. Read this interesting article regarding Takoma Park, Maryland - a Washington DC suburb.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/takoma-park-stands-by-non-us-citizen-voting-law/2012/03/13/gIQAVBcgBS_story.htm

[TexaninVA]

Well, you are entitled to you opinion. It certainly does not hold water in some communities. Read this interesting article regarding Takoma Park, Maryland - a Washington DC suburb.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/takoma-park-stands-by-non-us-citizen-voting-law/2012/03/13/gIQAVBcgBS_story.htm

I lived in the DC area for many years and Takoma Park has long been known as Berkeley east ... kind of like radical politics central in many ways

[billethkid]

Well, you are entitled to you opinion. It certainly does not hold water in some communities. Read this interesting article regarding Takoma Park, Maryland - a Washington DC suburb.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/takoma-park-stands-by-non-us-citizen-voting-law/2012/03/13/gIQAVBcgBS_story.htm

For accuracy I would restate the highlighted statement above as follows:

While it does hold water in MOST communities it does not in some.

I would venture a guess it would hold water in not only most communities, but would be supported by the majority if put to a vote....for those with a valid ID that is:D

[Sandtrap328]

Don't go changing my wording around to suit your own thoughts.chilout As far as you venturing a guess - venture away.

[TheVillageChicken]

I lived in the DC area for many years and Takoma Park has long been known as Berkeley east ... kind of like radical politics central in many ways

I believe they have an ordinance there that prohibits women from shaving their armpits and legs.

[blueash]

It absolutely bothers me ... and also makes me wonder WTF is going on with this Country.

If a non-citizen votes (and/or an illegal), as far as I know, that is against the law in all but perhaps the most wacko communities (San Francisco, Seattle or whatever).

Thus, if they break the law by voting, then indict, prosecute and deport.


Posted by Blueash

Can you please provide a link for your assertion that San Francisco, Seattle or other "wacko communities" are allowing non-citizens to vote? Or do you just provide invective without data.

An internet search reveals that there are a number of states/localities that have given voting rights to non-citizens who are residents of the community to vote in local and school elections.

And I still await your posting of the evidence for your allegation. Simply suggesting that I do a Google search does not mean you did one, or perhaps you didn't like the result of your search. So for everyone, neither Seattle, nor San Francisco nor any other "wacko community" as was claimed allows non-citizen voting. There are a few small towns in a single county in Maryland that allow non-citizen voting in local matters only. There are no states which allow non-citizen voting in state elections. Maryland allows localities to self-determine for certain situations of interest to that locality only.

You can read the history of the long period in the US when immigrants (of course only male white ones) had voting rights. 1928 was the first election in which nowhere in the US could a non-citizen legally vote.

Right of foreigners to vote in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in_the_United_States)

I am not here to defend or attack the idea of returning to allowing non-citizen voting. I just care about accuracy and honesty and am watching for disingenuous and unsupported claims.

[sunnyatlast]

It's a national matter!

"In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens.[1]

While that may not seem like many, just 3 percent of registered voters would have been more than enough to provide the winning presidential vote margin in Florida in 2000.

Indeed, the Census Bureau estimates that there are over a million illegal aliens in Florida,[2] and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has prosecuted more non-citizen voting cases in Florida than in any other state.[3]

Florida is not unique. Thousands of non-citizens are registered to vote in some states, and tens if not hundreds of thousands in total may be present on the voter rolls nationwide. These numbers are significant: Local elections are often decided by only a handful of votes, and even national elections have likely been within the margin of the number of non-citizens illegally registered to vote.
Yet there is no reliable method to determine the number of non-citizens registered or actually voting because most laws to ensure that only citizens vote are ignored, are inadequate, or are systematically undermined by government officials.

Those who ignore the implications of non-citizen registration and voting either are willfully blind to the problem or may actually favor this form of illegal voting......"

The Threat of Non-Citizen Voting (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/07/the-threat-of-non-citizen-voting)

[Polar Bear]

for me it is easy....no interpretation....no gray....

if one is not a US citizen they do not get to vote....PERIOD!!...


Bingo.

[njbchbum]

Posted by Blueash

Can you please provide a link for your assertion that San Francisco, Seattle or other "wacko communities" are allowing non-citizens to vote? Or do you just provide invective without data.



And I still await your posting of the evidence for your allegation. Simply suggesting that I do a Google search does not mean you did one, or perhaps you didn't like the result of your search. So for everyone, neither Seattle, nor San Francisco nor any other "wacko community" as was claimed allows non-citizen voting. There are a few small towns in a single county in Maryland that allow non-citizen voting in local matters only. There are no states which allow non-citizen voting in state elections. Maryland allows localities to self-determine for certain situations of interest to that locality only.

You can read the history of the long period in the US when immigrants (of course only male white ones) had voting rights. 1928 was the first election in which nowhere in the US could a non-citizen legally vote.

Right of foreigners to vote in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in_the_United_States)

I am not here to defend or attack the idea of returning to allowing non-citizen voting. I just care about accuracy and honesty and am watching for disingenuous and unsupported claims.

Sent you a PM.

[blueash]

Sorry, I personally know of more than that in Harry Reid's last senatorial campaign. And what about ACORN having been found guilty for illegal voter registration in the last Presidential campaign. Or what about the 800 voters over 164 years old who are currently on the rolls in NYC?

Open your eyes and do the research.

Ok I did some research. The last presidential campaign was 2012, Obama defeated Romney. As ACORN ceased to function in 2010 as evidenced by this highly reliable news source

ACORN Closing in Wake of Scandal | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2010/03/22/acorn-closing-in-wake-scandal/)

And ACORN was never found guilty of anything. Some of its 2008 and earlier hired voter enlisting people were but every case seemed to be people trying to get paid for doing no work, not trying to scam the vote. If you want to actually see a fact check on that..
ACORN Accusations (http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/)

"they were trying to get paid by ACORN for doing no work. Dan Satterberg, the Republican prosecuting attorney in King County, Wash., where the largest ACORN case to date was prosecuted, said that the indicted ACORN employees were shirking responsibility, not plotting election fraud.
Satterberg: [A] joint federal and state investigation has determined that this
scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting.
Instead, the defendants cheated their employer, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (or ACORN), to get paid for work they did not actually perform. ACORN’s lax oversight of their own voter registration drive permitted this to happen. … It was hardly a sophisticated plan: The defendants simply realized that making up names was easier than actually canvassing the streets looking for unregistered voters. … [It] appears that the employees of ACORN were not performing the work that they were being paid for, and to some extent, ACORN is a victim of employee theft."


And please, what about the voters over 164 years old. Are you alleging they are non-citizens? Do you have any evidence for that? Or is it just possible that their birthdates were errantly entered into the computer base and not part of some scheme to steal elections from someone? You say you do the research but you don't actually seem to post your evidence. Here is mine to completely refute your suggestion

850 voters in NYC are officially 164 years old | New York Post (http://nypost.com/2014/10/22/850-people-officially-over-164-years-old-nyc-board-of-elections/)

by the way the NY post is also a very GOP publication owned by the same person who owns Fox Network. Nothing wrong with him owning as much as he wants. I only mention this to show that the Post is not some left wing lib rag sheet.

If you personally know people who voted illegally I strongly suggest you need to notify the authorities in Nevada who will be more than happy to investigate your allegations and prosecute.

Here is the email address for the Nevada attorney general.

aginfo@ag.nv.gov

[SoccerCoach]

Our voting procedure has been compromised. The right to vote should NOT be linked to one getting a drivers license. One should need to go to an office of the Registrar of Voters, show a valid proof of citizenship, perhaps even be fingerprinted. If the fingerprint is not on a list of illegals or felons, you are accepted. Then and only then is your voter ID would be mailed to you.

[Average Guy]

It's a national matter!

"In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens.[1]


I found your quote interesting. "Up to 3 percent" could be anything from zero to 3 percent. I read the GAO report that was referenced in the Heritage Foundation report you quoted.

GAO included in their report 8 U.S. district courts. Those 8 U.S. district courts reported to GAO the percentage of individuals called for jury duty who avoided jury duty by claiming that they were not U.S. citizens.

This is what GAO reported:

"Of the eight district courts, four federal jury administrators said no one had been disqualified from jury service because they were not U.S. citizens. In the other four district courts:

•a federal jury administrator in one U.S. district court estimated that 1 to
3 percent of the people out of a jury pool of 30,000 over 2 years (about
300 to 900 people) said they were not U.S. citizens;

•a federal jury administrator in a second U.S. district court estimated
that less than 1 percent of the people out of a jury pool of 35,000 names
each month (less than 350 people) said they were not U.S. citizens;

•a federal jury administrator in a third U.S. district court estimated that
about 150 people out of a jury pool of 95,000 names over 2 years said
they were not U.S. citizens; and

•a federal jury administrator in a fourth U.S. district court estimated that
annually about 5 people typically claimed non-citizenship in a jury pool
of about 50,000 individuals".

Source:http://www.gao.gov/assets/250/246628.pdf

It makes me wonder how many of these people who were registered to vote but claimed to be non-citizens when called for jury duty, were actually citizens who lied to avoid jury duty.

In summary, the estimated percentage of registered voters who claimed to be non-citizens when called for jury duty and subsequently disqualified from jury duty were as follows:

4 district courts reported 0 percent
1 reported somewhere between 1 and 3 percent
1 reported less than 1 percent
1 reported 150/95,000, which is 0.15 percent
1 reported about 5 in 50,000, which is 0.01 percent.

To use 3 percent as an estimated of non-citizens on voting records, does not seem appropriate to me.

[janmcn]

Our voting procedure has been compromised. The right to vote should NOT be linked to one getting a drivers license. One should need to go to an office of the Registrar of Voters, show a valid proof of citizenship, perhaps even be fingerprinted. If the fingerprint is not on a list of illegals or felons, you are accepted. Then and only then is your voter ID would be mailed to you.

Register to Vote - Florida Division of Elections - Department of State (http://election.dos.state.fl.us/voter-registration/voter-reg.shtml)


That is exactly how registering to vote works in Florida, except for the fingerprinting. Having a driver's license has nothing to do with voting, except that you can use your driver's license for identification, or you can use a Florida ID card or the last four digits of your social security number.

[Villagesperson]

I am very confused.

Are those who are pointing out, for some reason, there is insufficient voting irregularities to cause concern....are they saying that, in their opinion, it is just fine for someone who is not a citizen of the USA vote in elections held in the USA ? That seemed to be the original question asked and commented on.

[Villageswimmer]

We just voted. All we showed were our new FL drivers licenses that we got last week.

When we applied for the drivers licenses, all they asked for was 2 docs that show our names, address, and social security numbers. No birth certs, no marriage record. No passports. They kept our old drivers licenses. Oh, also proof of auto insurance.

[JB in TV]

We just voted. All we showed were our new FL drivers licenses that we got last week.

When we applied for the drivers licenses, all they asked for was 2 docs that show our names, address, and social security numbers. No birth certs, no marriage record. No passports. They kept our old drivers licenses. Oh, also proof of auto insurance.

you got your FL driver's licenses LAST WEEK? when did you register to vote in FL? or did you?

[Average Guy]

We just voted. All we showed were our new FL drivers licenses that we got last week.

When we applied for the drivers licenses, all they asked for was 2 docs that show our names, address, and social security numbers. No birth certs, no marriage record. No passports. They kept our old drivers licenses. Oh, also proof of auto insurance.

The deadline to register to vote in the Florida General Election was Oct. 6th, 29 days before the election. Something is not adding up if you got your drivers licenses last week and used them as identification to vote.

[Steve & Deanna]

I remember when we used to have to pay a poll tax to vote but I believe in voter ID's that could probably be affixed to state driver's licenses. The city of Burlington VT is looking into letting non-US citizens to vote as it is said that 'they pay taxes'. Well, I'm sure they do pay taxes.....sales taxes....because most of them are on public assistance.
Our rights are quickly eroding.

[billethkid]

the paying of taxes by non citizens DOES NOT allow entitlement to vote.

Paying the taxes allows them to live here, use the infrstructure here and pay the bills for community and state amenities.

If they want to vote, then let them become a US citizen.

Voting is a cheirshed priviledge that comes with being a US citizen. Let's not allow todays tide of loose law interpretation and non enforcement tarnish the process.

[dplars]

Yes, we are on a slippery slope. I don't see an end to it especially when one segment of our society thinks its ok to lie and cheat.

Woman Convicted of Voter Fraud Honored by Ohio Democrats (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/03/21/Woman-convicted-of-voter-fraud-honored-by-Ohio-Democrats)

[Average Guy]

Yes, we are on a slippery slope. I don't see an end to it especially when one segment of our society thinks its ok to lie and cheat.

Woman Convicted of Voter Fraud Honored by Ohio Democrats (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/03/21/Woman-convicted-of-voter-fraud-honored-by-Ohio-Democrats)

Here is another article on the subject with the headline "Both parties jeer embrace of fraudulent voter." Al Sharpton hardly represents the majority of the Democrats.

Both parties jeer embrace of fraudulent voter (http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/elections/2014/03/21/democrats-convicted-poll-worker-hero/6712981/)

[Villageswimmer]

you got your FL driver's licenses LAST WEEK? when did you register to vote in FL? or did you?

Sorry I was unclear. We got our drivers licenses, car reg, and voter's registration...all at the same time. One stop shopping in Sumter County. (Very efficient, btw).

[VT2TV]

Nothing at all wrong with allowing non-citizens to vote in local elections. The non-citizens (not illegals) are residents and deserve a say in their local issues. Do not confuse non-citizens with illegals.



I cannot believe that anyone who is an US citizen would have that opinon. Our ancestors fought and died to give our CITIZENS the right to vote, and live in a democracy. The people who are not citizens could very easily sway the elections to the detriment of this country by not being able to understand the issues or concerns of the citizens. That does not mean that all citizens who vote understand all the issues, but they have a legal right to vote. There are millions of Mexicans who want nothing more to take "back" the US and are willing to do what they can to ensure that. With that attitude, and the fact that American citizens, either born here or legal, are quickly becoming the minority, I am afraid that anyone who has children or grandchildren, should be very concerned about the life they will have. I think it is absolutely CRIMINAL to allow criminals to vote. When you break the horrific laws that would be enough to send you to prision, you lose the right to vote. I have also heard and read that all of this is true on the network news shows-not any of the cable news-not to say that it hasn't been on those either. Our country and its government is quickly being given to anyone and everyone other than the actual American citizens. It breaks my heart to see our country stray so far from principals, morals, and the right thing to do. I just hope it is not too late for the remaining wonderful people of this country to take it back.

[Sandtrap328]

Regarding the government issued ID required for voting:

Do you agree that US citizens should be able to receive ID cards (not driver licenses) at no cost?

[TexaninVA]

Regarding the government issued ID required for voting:

Do you agree that US citizens should be able to receive ID cards (not driver licenses) at no cost?

You see, that's the issue .... give people stuff for free and they expect more stuff. An ID card doesn't cost much except time. If someone is too lazy or too indifferent to get an ID, that's their problem ... not mine nor societys'

[blueash]

There are millions of Mexicans who want nothing more to take "back" the US and are willing to do what they can to ensure that. With that attitude, and the fact that American citizens, either born here or legal, are quickly becoming the minority.


I believe there are lots of Southerners still fighting the Civil War and still wanting to secede from the gubmint in Washington, but I have apparently been sadly uninformed about the millions of Mexicans who wish to refight the Mexican-American war. I had not been aware that American citizens are becoming the minority of Americans. I do know that white Americans are becoming a minority. But maybe white people is the group you mean when you talk about "the remaining wonderful people".

[graciegirl]

I believe there are lots of Southerners still fighting the Civil War and still wanting to secede from the gubmint in Washington, (HUH?) but I have apparently been sadly uninformed about the millions of Mexicans who wish to refight the Mexican-American war. I had not been aware that American citizens are becoming the minority of Americans. I do know that white Americans are becoming a minority. But maybe white people is the group you mean when you talk about "the remaining wonderful people".

Blueash. Do you think that people who are not U.S. Citizens should be allowed to vote?

[TexaninVA]

I believe there are lots of Southerners still fighting the Civil War and still wanting to secede from the gubmint in Washington, but I have apparently been sadly uninformed about the millions of Mexicans who wish to refight the Mexican-American war. I had not been aware that American citizens are becoming the minority of Americans. I do know that white Americans are becoming a minority. But maybe white people is the group you mean when you talk about "the remaining wonderful people".

I get the impression at times that you seem to feel European-American "white people" (as you put it) and their culture/morays/civilization etc are the problem. Is that an accurate impression or erroneous on my part?

[janmcn]

You see, that's the issue .... give people stuff for free and they expect more stuff. An ID card doesn't cost much except time. If someone is too lazy or too indifferent to get an ID, that's their problem ... not mine nor societys'



Texas Election Judge Had To Turn Away 93-Year-Old Veteran Due To Strict Voter ID Law | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/27/3584645/texas-voter-id-pollworkers/)


Was this 93 year old veteran too lazy or too indifferent when he showed up to vote and was not allowed to vote because his driver's license had expired, no surprise there.

[blueash]

Blueash. Do you think that people who are not U.S. Citizens should be allowed to vote?

I don't think my opinion is important, as I wrote on an earlier post. However let me posit a situation for you. All the home owners in Bridgeport decide to have a local social council. Everyone interested will pay ten dollars a year and the money will be used for some event which the council will plan and execute. This is widely seen as a great idea and lots of your neighbors decide they would like to be on the council. Some hate square dancing and want to be there just to be sure that is not the chosen activity. Some just enjoy the honor, or the power of being on a council. If you want to run you submit your name and there will be a vote with the top 5 people becoming council members. So far so good.

Now it turns out that a few families in Bridgeport are not Florida residents. Some are snowbirds from Ohio, some might be Canadians or even, perish the though, Brits. Are you going to let those non-Florida people vote for your local social council? Those Ohioans might want to make everyone to cook buckeyes. Those Canadians might vote to have a hockey game. The Brits might want bangers and mash. If the answer is no you would only allow registered Florida residents who are also US citizens to vote in this very local concern, then you would be staying consistent with the idea that there need to be very strict rules about who can vote about anything in this country.

If on the other hand you say, well they live here and are part of this community so they should certainly have a say in our little social council as this is just a local concern which impacts them. Then you agree with the people in Takoma Park MD who allow non-citizens to have a say in their very local elections for things like school board and town council.

So GG, which side are you on when it is presented that way? If a local community wants to allow all its inhabitants to have a say in its local issues, why would I as an outsider care?

[DaleMN]

Non US citizens voting in national elections?

Non-citizens being allowed to vote adds one more nail to our nation's coffin. Although I am not a historian, I do not know of another country in world history that has spiraled downward as quickly as ours has these last 6 years.


Gee 6 years? How did you come up with that time period? :doh:

[njbchbum]

I don't think my opinion is important, as I wrote on an earlier post. However let me posit a situation for you. All the home owners in Bridgeport decide to have a local social council. Everyone interested will pay ten dollars a year and the money will be used for some event which the council will plan and execute. This is widely seen as a great idea and lots of your neighbors decide they would like to be on the council. Some hate square dancing and want to be there just to be sure that is not the chosen activity. Some just enjoy the honor, or the power of being on a council. If you want to run you submit your name and there will be a vote with the top 5 people becoming council members. So far so good.

Now it turns out that a few families in Bridgeport are not Florida residents. Some are snowbirds from Ohio, some might be Canadians or even, perish the though, Brits. Are you going to let those non-Florida people vote for your local social council? Those Ohioans might want to make everyone to cook buckeyes. Those Canadians might vote to have a hockey game. The Brits might want bangers and mash. If the answer is no you would only allow registered Florida residents who are also US citizens to vote in this very local concern, then you would be staying consistent with the idea that there need to be very strict rules about who can vote about anything in this country.

If on the other hand you say, well they live here and are part of this community so they should certainly have a say in our little social council as this is just a local concern which impacts them. Then you agree with the people in Takoma Park MD who allow non-citizens to have a say in their very local elections for things like school board and town council.

So GG, which side are you on when it is presented that way? If a local community wants to allow all its inhabitants to have a say in its local issues, why would I as an outsider care?

I believe I missed a 'yes' or 'no' in this response to the original question, "Do you think that people who are not U.S. Citizens should be allowed to vote?"

[Sandtrap328]

My answer is YES - non citizens ( not illegals) should be allowed to vote in local elections. They would have to show proof of citizenship in their own country, be local residents, and have a pay stub showing deduction of FICA.

[TexaninVA]

My answer is YES - non citizens ( not illegals) should be allowed to vote in local elections. They would have to show proof of citizenship in their own country, be local residents, and have a pay stub showing deduction of FICA.

Don't you think it would be discriminatory to require the non-citizen voter to have a job, and even worse, to have to go through the anguish of having to present some type of formal ID?

[TexaninVA]

Texas Election Judge Had To Turn Away 93-Year-Old Veteran Due To Strict Voter ID Law | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/27/3584645/texas-voter-id-pollworkers/)


Was this 93 year old veteran too lazy or too indifferent when he showed up to vote and was not allowed to vote because his driver's license had expired, no surprise there.

Well, my Dad is a WWII USMC vet who is 94 and lives in Austin TX. He votes every year, but he also knows enough to have some form of viable ID. In other words, he takes responsibility.

Now, I agree it’s unfortunate that the guy you cite in the article could not vote, and that does indeed tug us emotionally towards … “hey who needs any rules at all … just let everybody vote without an ID” (Actually some on this board say let non-citizens vote … go figure). However, I don’t think this one guy’s situation is sufficient to negate this gist of what I said.

[janmcn]

Well, my Dad is a WWII USMC vet who is 94 and lives in Austin TX. He votes every year, but he also knows enough to have some form of viable ID. In other words, he takes responsibility.

Now, I agree it’s unfortunate that the guy you cite in the article could not vote, and that does indeed tug us emotionally towards … “hey who needs any rules at all … just let everybody vote without an ID” (Actually some on this board say let non-citizens vote … go figure). However, I don’t think this one guy’s situation is sufficient to negate this gist of what I said.


Not suggesting that there be no rules, but perhaps the Texas Legislature could have added an exception clause allowing people over 90 to use an expired driver's license as their photo ID. Does anybody think that this veteran, who has been voting for 70 years, is no longer a citizen of the US?

[billethkid]

Not suggesting that there be no rules, but perhaps the Texas Legislature could have added an exception clause allowing people over 90 to use an expired driver's license as their photo ID. Does anybody think that this veteran, who has been voting for 70 years, is no longer a citizen of the US?

there will always be a worthy exception to every rule or law. The problems begin when emotions make an exception because there can never be just one!

The net of enforcement always catches more than intended, however the law is the law.

Just look at all the issues and problems this country has everytime laws are not enforced. Illegal immigration being one....voter identification for another...just to name two current events but sterling examples of lack of enforcement.

[Sandtrap328]

Don't you think it would be discriminatory to require the non-citizen voter to have a job, and even worse, to have to go through the anguish of having to present some type of formal ID?

No.

Also, remember I am advocating this for only local elections - not state or national. If a non-citizen is here legally (and that is who we are talking about) that they WILL have a valid passport from their country as ID.

As for having a job, this shows a tie to the area. Details can be worked out by someone in charge of such matters. I am retired.

Just curious, Tex, what viable government issued ID does your 94 year old dad use?

[njbchbum]

As for having a job, this shows a tie to the area. Details can be worked out by someone in charge of such matters. I am retired.



If having a job is sufficient evidence for showing 'a tie to the area' for the resident non-citizen...how does the unemployed resident citizen show their tie to the area?

[janmcn]

there will always be a worthy exception to every rule or law. The problems begin when emotions make an exception because there can never be just one!

The net of enforcement always catches more than intended, however the law is the law.

Just look at all the issues and problems this country has everytime laws are not enforced. Illegal immigration being one....voter identification for another...just to name two current events but sterling examples of lack of enforcement.


And if this 93 year old vet lived in Florida, he would be allowed to vote with no problem just by voting by mail, no ID required. IMO Florida has the best voting system I have ever had the privilege of using.

[Sandtrap328]

If having a job is sufficient evidence for showing 'a tie to the area' for the resident non-citizen...how does the unemployed resident citizen show their tie to the area?

Details can be worked out and have been worked out in some American communities.

[graciegirl]

Details can be worked out and have been worked out in some American communities.


So, Sandtrap, you support the right of all people to vote in the U.S. National Elections, even if they are not citizens of the U.S.?

[TexaninVA]

Details can be worked out and have been worked out in some American communities.

We don't want the "details worked out" ... we want for only US citizens to vote, and for non-citizens, illegal aliens and for that matter extraterrestrial aliens to NOT vote in US elections.

This is pretty simple actually ...

[Sandtrap328]

So, Sandtrap, you support the right of all people to vote in the U.S. National Elections, even if they are not citizens of the U.S.?


No, just in local elections. Not state or national. Not illegal immigrants, just legal immigrants but non-citizens

[Sandtrap328]

We don't want the "details worked out" ... we want for only US citizens to vote, and for non-citizens, illegal aliens and for that matter extraterrestrial aliens to NOT vote in US elections.

This is pretty simple actually ...

Well, there are several communities in the US where non-citizens can vote in local elections.

You may have some of those non-citizens living close to you in The Villages. I know of 4 couples in The Villages where the husband or wife has retained citizenship in their native Canada, Britain, and Netherlands while married to a US citizen. I am sure they would not like to be lumped together with your illegal aliens or extraterrestrial aliens. In fact, they may give you some lumps!

[nitehawk]

Well, there are several communities in the US where non-citizens can vote in local elections.

You may have some of those non-citizens living close to you in The Villages. I know of at 4 couples in The Villages where the husband or wife has retained citizenship in their native Canada, Britain, and Netherlands. I am sure they would not like to be lumped together with your illegal aliens or extraterrestrial aliens. In fact, they may give you some lumps!

:crap2::boom:

[TexaninVA]

Well, there are several communities in the US where non-citizens can vote in local elections.

You may have some of those non-citizens living close to you in The Villages. I know of 4 couples in The Villages where the husband or wife has retained citizenship in their native Canada, Britain, and Netherlands while married to a US citizen. I am sure they would not like to be lumped together with your illegal aliens or extraterrestrial aliens. In fact, they may give you some lumps!

Now now, try not to get your apples mixed up with your oranges.

Non-citizens are welcome in TV (my daughter in law for example is a Brit as is one of my neighbors). But, just as I don't expect to vote in Canada, Britain or wherever, my point is a very simple one, your argumentative obfuscation notwithstanding.

To wit, if one wants to vote in an American election, one needs to be an American citizen.

[Edjkoz]

Another vote for a voter ID being required. I know of no one who can not get an ID. I highly doubt that this requirement would prevent any person from voting

[dbussone]

Now now, try not to get your apples mixed up with your oranges.

Non-citizens are welcome in TV (my daughter in law for example is a Brit as is one of my neighbors). But, just as I don't expect to vote in Canada, Britain or wherever, my point is a very simple one, your argumentative obfuscation notwithstanding.

To wit, if one wants to vote in an American election, one needs to be an American citizen.

Exactly. Your last sentence is perfectly stated.

[Sandtrap328]

Now now, try not to get your apples mixed up with your oranges.

Non-citizens are welcome in TV (my daughter in law for example is a Brit as is one of my neighbors). But, just as I don't expect to vote in Canada, Britain or wherever, my point is a very simple one, your argumentative obfuscation notwithstanding.

To wit, if one wants to vote in an American election, one needs to be an American citizen.

No, one does NOT have to be an American citizen to vote in American elections. There are several communities in America that allow non-citizens to vote in local elections.

You may not like it but it does happen.

You may not like the idea of legal recreational marijuana but it does happen.

You may not like the idea of legal gay marriage but it does happen.

It all depends on which state or community you live in.

[billethkid]

there is just no accounting for what "some" will do....eh?

[TexaninVA]

No, one does NOT have to be an American citizen to vote in American elections. There are several communities in America that allow non-citizens to vote in local elections.

You may not like it but it does happen.

You may not like the idea of legal recreational marijuana but it does happen.

You may not like the idea of legal gay marriage but it does happen.

It all depends on which state or community you live in.

To argue that, since this type of voting happens in several localities, let’s therefore allow it everywhere is not persuasive, as well as wrongheaded IMHO.

Be that as it may, how about you and I recognize that we will never agree on my previous assertion … ie if one wants to vote in an American election one needs to be an American citizen. I think most Americans do in fact agree with that even if you don’t.

As far as recreational marijuana or gay marriage goes, that’s best handled in a separate thread if you really want to discuss those again.

[VT2TV]

No, just in local elections. Not state or national. Not illegal immigrants, just legal immigrants but non-citizens


Now, how in the world do you limit the non citizens to just voting in local elections instead of any and all elections. When you go to the polling place, all you are asked is to confirm your street address. Not one time have I ever been asked if I was a citizen of this country. Any person who has an address and drivers license can vote. Now, when I got a drivers license in Florida originally, I had to show proof of ID, (passport), proof of marriage ( copy of marriage license), and I think I had to show a document (bills)from my Florida residence with the address on it. But I think someone commented on this site recently that all they had to do was show their former license from the previous state. So , again who monitors whether the non citizens vote only in the local elections or all of them. I don't personally believe they should even be voting in local elections . One of my best friends, who is a Canadian, lived in this country for many years, and didn't vote in local elections. How do you know how long the non-citizens will even be in the area. They could be voting in areas that they may live in for a year or two, but if there are enough of them (like colleges, workers transferred here temp. for their jobs), the votes they cast could have long term reprecussions. I have no doubt it is being done----but that certainly doesn't mean it is right.

[Sandtrap328]

Now, how in the world do you limit the non citizens to just voting in local elections instead of any and all elections. When you go to the polling place, all you are asked is to confirm your street address. Not one time have I ever been asked if I was a citizen of this country. Any person who has an address and drivers license can vote. Now, when I got a drivers license in Florida originally, I had to show proof of ID, (passport), proof of marriage ( copy of marriage license), and I think I had to show a document (bills)from my Florida residence with the address on it. But I think someone commented on this site recently that all they had to do was show their former license from the previous state. So , again who monitors whether the non citizens vote only in the local elections or all of them. I don't personally believe they should even be voting in local elections . One of my best friends, who is a Canadian, lived in this country for many years, and didn't vote in local elections. How do you know how long the non-citizens will even be in the area. They could be voting in areas that they may live in for a year or two, but if there are enough of them (like colleges, workers transferred here temp. for their jobs), the votes they cast could have long term reprecussions. I have no doubt it is being done----but that certainly doesn't mean it is right.

Easy enough. Google to find out which communities in the US allows non-citizens to vote, call or email their election officials and ask them your question. That way you could get your question answered in it's entirety and directly from the source.

[VT2TV]

Easy enough. Google to find out which communities in the US allows non-citizens to vote, call or email their election officials and ask them your question. That way you could get your question answered in it's entirety and directly from the source.


I am talking about the people at the polls, who are on the front lines. I am sure they don't know the difference. And that is not meant to be a dig against them. I doubt most of them have even heard that non citizens are being allowed to vote. And they don't have time or training to try to distinguish between...oh, ok...you aren't a citizen, but you can vote for A,B but not C. Now, you are not a citizen, but you can only vote for A. But I got special permission to vote in A, B, C and D this year. ETC....Everyone in this country should ALL be voting under the same rules, and that is that ONLY legal citizens of this United States are allowed to vote in any election. Any variance to that is wrong in my opinion. Non citizens being allowed to vote is just another right we are giving up, and I can't believe that anyone could even think it is right. I wish everyone who thinks that way would go to a VA Hospital and talk to the men and women who fought numerous wars to give us the right to vote, and see what the Veterans have to say about people throwing that right away, or talk to families who lost a loved one who fought for us to have the right to vote. Or the numerous Veterans here in TV. I am going to try to make this my last post about this because no one will EVER change my mind about this.

[billethkid]

those in favor of allowing non US citizens to vote in ANY election need to keep an eye on the potential long term that includes future vote seeding.

I have yet to see or hear one reasonable reason why a non US citizen should be allowed to vote.......because there is not one!

[blueash]

I am talking about the people at the polls, who are on the front lines. I am sure they don't know the difference. And that is not meant to be a dig against them. I doubt most of them have even heard that non citizens are being allowed to vote. And they don't have time or training to try to distinguish between...oh, ok...you aren't a citizen, but you can vote for A,B but not C. Now, you are not a citizen, but you can only vote for A. But I got special permission to vote in A, B, C and D this year. ETC....Everyone in this country should ALL be voting under the same rules, and that is that ONLY legal citizens of this United States are allowed to vote in any election. Any variance to that is wrong in my opinion. Non citizens being allowed to vote is just another right we are giving up, and I can't believe that anyone could even think it is right. I wish everyone who thinks that way would go to a VA Hospital and talk to the men and women who fought numerous wars to give us the right to vote, and see what the Veterans have to say about people throwing that right away, or talk to families who lost a loved one who fought for us to have the right to vote. Or the numerous Veterans here in TV. I am going to try to make this my last post about this because no one will EVER change my mind about this.

Today being election day, I thought I would remind everyone to vote. And if you live north of 466 and you are not a citizen of the US you may vote also!

Now you can only vote in a local election and it requires you to go to a separate polling site, but you can vote if you own a home. You see the Villages is one of the communities in America that allows voting by non-citizens in local elections. They have worked out the details and safety mechanisms they feel they require. You may vote in person or may already have voted by absentee ballot.

http://www.districtgov.org/projects/aac-elections-past/_AAC%20%20Election%20Information%20Sheet.pdf

[njbchbum]

Today being election day, I thought I would remind everyone to vote. And if you live north of 466 and you are not a citizen of the US you may vote also!

Now you can only vote in a local election and it requires you to go to a separate polling site, but you can vote if you own a home. You see the Villages is one of the communities in America that allows voting by non-citizens in local elections. They have worked out the details and safety mechanisms they feel they require. You may vote in person or may already have voted by absentee ballot.

http://www.districtgov.org/projects/aac-elections-past/_AAC%20%20Election%20Information%20Sheet.pdf



Please note: This landowner election LIMITS voting to ONE VOTE PER ADDRESS/PROPERTY/HOUSEHOLD! It is a landowner election and NOT a general government election.

[sunnyatlast]

"One of the biggest voter frauds may be the idea promoted.....that there is no voter fraud, that laws requiring voters to have a photo identification are just attempts to suppress black voting.

Reporter John Fund has written three books on voter fraud and a recent survey by Old Dominion University indicates that there are more than a million registered voters who are not citizens, and who therefore are not legally entitled to vote.

The most devastating account of voter fraud may be in the book Injustice by J. Christian Adams. He was a Justice Department attorney, who detailed with inside knowledge the voter frauds known to the Justice Department, and ignored....

One of these frauds involved sending out absentee ballots to people who had never asked for them. Then a political operator would show up -- uninvited -- the day the ballots arrived and "help" the voter to fill them out. Sometimes the intruders simply took the ballots, filled them out and forged the signatures of the voters....."

Voter fraud and voter I.D. (http://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/thomas-sowell/2014/11/04/voter-fraud-and-voter-id)

[Sandtrap328]

"One of the biggest voter frauds may be the idea promoted.....that there is no voter fraud, that laws requiring voters to have a photo identification are just attempts to suppress black voting.

Reporter John Fund has written three books on voter fraud and a recent survey by Old Dominion University indicates that there are more than a million registered voters who are not citizens, and who therefore are not legally entitled to vote.

The most devastating account of voter fraud may be in the book Injustice by J. Christian Adams. He was a Justice Department attorney, who detailed with inside knowledge the voter frauds known to the Justice Department, and ignored....

One of these frauds involved sending out absentee ballots to people who had never asked for them. Then a political operator would show up -- uninvited -- the day the ballots arrived and "help" the voter to fill them out. Sometimes the intruders simply took the ballots, filled them out and forged the signatures of the voters....."

Voter fraud and voter I.D. (http://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/thomas-sowell/2014/11/04/voter-fraud-and-voter-id)

A couple of things in Sowell's article made me wonder a bit. As stated above, absentee ballots would be sent out to people who never asked forthem. Who would send them out? It is only done by request.

Also, the article stated that free photo ID is available for all people. I do not think that is true. A Florida photo ID card costs about $50. Where are photo ID cards free?

[TheVillageChicken]

A couple of things in Sowell's article made me wonder a bit. As stated above, absentee ballots would be sent out to people who never asked forthem. Who would send them out? It is only done by request.

Also, the article stated that free photo ID is available for all people. I do not think that is true. A Florida photo ID card costs about $50. Where are photo ID cards free?

Twenty-five bucks for Florida ID

[Rags123]

A couple of things in Sowell's article made me wonder a bit. As stated above, absentee ballots would be sent out to people who never asked forthem. Who would send them out? It is only done by request.

Also, the article stated that free photo ID is available for all people. I do not think that is true. A Florida photo ID card costs about $50. Where are photo ID cards free?

Here are a few ways!

"Joe Carrillo, the private detective who broke the 2012 absentee ballot fraud case, said absentee ballots are the Holy Grail to fraudsters. “Two hundred thousand absentee ballots were delivered last time (for the primary election Aug. 26), but only 100,000 were returned (meaning they were filled out legitimately and returned to the Department of Elections.) What happened to the other 100,000?” he asks.

“That is how elections are stolen in Miami Dade County,” Carrillo said.

He said scammers request absentee ballots through the Internet and falsify request forms because it’s less risky than going door to door.

“Now ballot brokers (people who collect fraudulent absentee ballots) are afraid of going out in the street asking people — most of them elderly who don’t know anything about the electoral process — for their ballots,” Carrillo said.

“This is a long-term problem in Florida,” said Hans von Spakovsky, senior legal fellow at Heritage Foundation. “I don’t think much has been done since the 1998 (Department of Law Enforcement) report came out to fix the problem.”


As election day nears, talk turns to absentee ballot fraud | Human Events (http://humanevents.com/2014/10/06/as-election-day-nears-talk-turns-to-absentee-ballot-fraud/)

[Sandtrap328]

[QUOTE=Rags123;963395]Here are a few ways!

"Joe Carrillo, the private detective who broke the 2012 absentee ballot fraud case, said absentee ballots are the Holy Grail to fraudsters. “Two hundred thousand absentee ballots were delivered last time (for the primary election Aug. 26), but only 100,000 were returned (meaning they were filled out legitimately and returned to the Department of Elections.) What happened to the other 100,000?” he asks.

“That is how elections are stolen in Miami Dade County,” Carrillo said.

He said scammers request absentee ballots through the Internet and falsify request forms because it’s less risky than going door to door.

“Now ballot brokers (people who collect fraudulent absentee ballots) are afraid of going out in the street asking people — most of them elderly who don’t know anything about the electoral process — for their ballots,” Carrillo said.

“This is a long-term problem in Florida,” said Hans von Spakovsky, senior legal fellow at Heritage Foundation. “I don’t think much has been done since the 1998 (Department of Law Enforcement) report came out to fix the problem.”


As election day nears, talk turns to absentee ballot fraud | Human Events (http://humanevents.com/2014/10/06/as-election-day-nears-talk-turns-to-absentee-ballot-fraud/)[/

"Aye, Caramba, you got some 'splaining to do, Lucy!"

[Rags123]

[QUOTE=Rags123;963395]Here are a few ways!

"Joe Carrillo, the private detective who broke the 2012 absentee ballot fraud case, said absentee ballots are the Holy Grail to fraudsters. “Two hundred thousand absentee ballots were delivered last time (for the primary election Aug. 26), but only 100,000 were returned (meaning they were filled out legitimately and returned to the Department of Elections.) What happened to the other 100,000?” he asks.

“That is how elections are stolen in Miami Dade County,” Carrillo said.

He said scammers request absentee ballots through the Internet and falsify request forms because it’s less risky than going door to door.

“Now ballot brokers (people who collect fraudulent absentee ballots) are afraid of going out in the street asking people — most of them elderly who don’t know anything about the electoral process — for their ballots,” Carrillo said.

“This is a long-term problem in Florida,” said Hans von Spakovsky, senior legal fellow at Heritage Foundation. “I don’t think much has been done since the 1998 (Department of Law Enforcement) report came out to fix the problem.”


As election day nears, talk turns to absentee ballot fraud | Human Events (http://humanevents.com/2014/10/06/as-election-day-nears-talk-turns-to-absentee-ballot-fraud/)[/

"Aye, Caramba, you got some 'splaining to do, Lucy!"

My opinion....fraudulent voting NOT funny !

[TexaninVA]

"One of the biggest voter frauds may be the idea promoted.....that there is no voter fraud.

This is very pithy and well put. Never thought of it quite like that before.

[cherylncliff]

Holy smokes. They aren't citizens, why should they have a say. Can you name any other country that allows this?

In fact, several countries allow non-nationals to vote. Here are a few- Canada, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Spain Sweden and some others.

[sunnyatlast]

A couple of things in Sowell's article made me wonder a bit. As stated above, absentee ballots would be sent out to people who never asked forthem. Who would send them out? It is only done by request.

Also, the article stated that free photo ID is available for all people. I do not think that is true. A Florida photo ID card costs about $50. Where are photo ID cards free?

Colorado mailed out a ballot to every registered voter without requests for them:

"DENVER—A new election system using all mail-in ballots faces an immediate test in Colorado, with tight Senate, House and gubernatorial races that are being closely watched nationally.

Hoping to boost turnout, the Democrat-led legislature here passed a law a year ago requiring Colorado to use mail-in ballots in virtually all elections. Some Republicans, including the secretary of state, have voiced concern about mandating the system statewide, saying that relying so heavily on the postal service could cause problems, especially for rural voters. Democrats have said that the two other states with all-mail elections, Washington and Oregon, have experienced few problems……"
Colorado Mail-In Voting Gets Early Test - WSJ - WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/articles/colorado-mail-in-voting-gets-early-test-1415049406)

"Washington State votes by mail. Vote by mail is convenient and gives you extra time to learn about the ballot measures and candidates before casting your vote.

1. Receive your ballot

Your ballot is mailed to you at least 18 days before each election. To receive your ballot, your voter registration mailing address must be current. You can update your address online with MyVote.
https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/voters/Pages/vote_by_mail.aspx


States requiring photo ID and they issue state ID for free:

"U.S. Supreme Court Decision Blocks Wisconsin Voter Photo ID Law
Late Thursday, October 9, 2014, the United States Supreme Court issued an order blocking implementation of Wisconsin's voter photo ID law for the November 4, 2014 General Election.
Any information on this website stating that voter photo ID is in effect for the November 4, 2014 General Election should be disregarded.
How to Get a Free State ID Card for Voting
The Wisconsin Department of Transportation is providing free state ID cards for voting. To learn about getting a free Wisconsin ID card, please visit the Wisconsin Department of Transportation website: Wisconsin DMV Official Government Site - Obtaining an ID card (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/drivers/apply/idcard.htm).
New Free State ID Card Policy for People without Birth Certificates
The Wisconsin Division of Motor Vehicles has a new policy starting September 15, 2014 to help people who need a free state ID card for voting.
Voter Photo ID Law Information | Government Accountability Board (http://gab.wi.gov/elections-voting/photo-id)
-----
Georgia:
GEORGIA'S VOTER IDENTIFICATION CARD

If you do not have one of the six acceptable forms of photo ID, the State of Georgia offers a FREE Voter Identification Card. An identification card can be issued at any county registrar's office or Department of Driver Services Office free of charge.

To receive a voter identification card, the voter must provide:…..
georgia voter identification requirements2 (http://sos.ga.gov/index.php/elections/georgia_voter_identification_requirements2)
---
Alabama:
Voters may obtain a free photo ID from the Secretary of State's Office, their county registrar's office or a mobile location, which changes daily. The mobile location schedule can be found here.[3]..
--
"North Carolina residents who do not have valid forms of photo identification may apply for a free ID card at any North Carolina DMV.[43]
North Carolina was the first state to approve a voter ID law since the Supreme Court June 2013 ruling, where the high court struck down portions of the federal Voting Rights Act…."
--
"South Carolina: All voters are required to show photo identification at the polls. This includes a state driver's license, identification card, voter registration card that contains a photo, federal military ID or a U.S. passport. Voters can get a free photo ID from their county voter registration office by providing their name, date of birth and the last four digits of their social security number….."
State by State Voter ID Laws - Ballotpedia (http://ballotpedia.org/State_by_State_Voter_ID_Laws)

[applesoffh]

Now that the National elections are over and the winners have, for the most part, been decided, seems all the non-citizens and those who voted in two states voted for Republicans. I'm sure that's calmed everyone's fears.

[billethkid]

Now that the National elections are over and the winners have, for the most part, been decided, seems all the non-citizens and those who voted in two states voted for Republicans. I'm sure that's calmed everyone's fears.

That is one way to look at it! That makes one very big, impossible assumption that it takes non citizens to win!

Another would be that all the non citizens voted democratic and the largely republican citizen base turnout beat them!

[TexaninVA]

That is one way to look at it! That makes one very big, impossible assumption that it takes non citizens to win!

Another would be that all the non citizens voted democratic and the largely republican citizen base turnout beat them!

I think your 2nd hypothesis rings true ... :)

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by dbussone
Holy smokes. They aren't citizens, why should they have a say. Can you name any other country that allows this?

Originally Posted by CherylInCliff
In fact, several countries allow non-nationals to vote. Here are a few- Canada, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Spain Sweden and some others.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you are wrong about Canada allowing non citizens to vote.

And even though I'm a Canadian who owns a home in Florida and lives in the USA six months every year (and pays taxes all year long), I would NEVER expect to have the privilege of voting in any US election.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by dbussone
Holy smokes. They aren't citizens, why should they have a say. Can you name any other country that allows this?

Originally Posted by CherylInCliff
In fact, several countries allow non-nationals to vote. Here are a few- Canada, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Spain Sweden and some others.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you are wrong about Canada allowing non citizens to vote.

And even though I'm a Canadian who owns a home in Florida and lives in the USA six months every year (and pays taxes all year long), I would NEVER expect to have the privilege of voting in any US election.

Barefoot

Thanks for your posting ... it's refreshing to see common sense

I only wish that common sense, such as yours, could somehow prove to be more common and widespread than it seems to be.

[billethkid]

a lot of chatter and opinions about whether non citizens or illegals should vote.

A thought to be pursued for discussion is why would a non citizen and especially illegals want to vote?

The ones who want to vote in the neighborhood owners club is fine.
But what is their incentive to try to vote and get caught if not a legal vote?

People usually act on that which benefits them....or whoever is paying them. It would be interesting to know, if available, the distribution of the non citizen votes by party.