How business economics leads to bigger government.

[Villages PL]

The words have changed but the idea is basically the same.

Public schools were created to serve the needs of industry.

The national highway system likewise was to serve industry.

Big cities like New York City grew to serve commerce and you can't have a big city without city government to manage and coordinate the many daily activities. 1) Fire department 2) police dept. 3) health dept. 4) building department etc..

Ford's assembly line led to numerous motor vehicles and as they became more numerous we needed a Motor Vehicle Department

The Federal Aviation Administration was needed as air travel became more common.

It seems like big business and big government go hand in hand. All the above agencies were needed to facilitate business.

And last but not least we have the Affordable Care Act which will eventually lead to a single payer system. But that may require a lot of explanation.

[graciegirl]

Huh? First please explain how Public Schools were created to serve the needs of industry.

[dbussone]

I thought the national highway system was created by Eisenhower to facilitate troop and equipment movement during the Cold War.

[pqrstar]

And man once was dependent upon wood for heating and cooking.
And upon himself to provide meat and food for his family.

Now, he is dependent upon an outside source.

I think as society improves and advances and population grows, YES, we are becoming more dependent on the government for more rules, regulations, standards, and common services, etc.

So, I think the evolution of the economic system (both local, national, and international) would tend to create more governmental regulations. If that is what you are saying big government is.

But, isn't that what an advanced society is?

[Villages PL]

Huh? First please explain how Public Schools were created to serve the needs of industry.

What are you looking for? Details?

If you think public schools were created for some other reason, why don't you tell us about that other reason?

[Villages PL]

I thought the national highway system was created by Eisenhower to facilitate troop and equipment movement during the Cold War.

Okay, that may have been a reason too. But I can't imagine it was that reason alone. Look at the big benefit to industry.

[pqrstar]

What are you looking for? Details?

If you think public schools were created for some other reason, why don't you tell us about that other reason?

To me, industry is a trade.

I don't think public schools were created to teach automobile assembly, brick laying, truck driving, manufacturing, welding, pipefitting, baking, cooking, etc.

Early American schools taught reading, writing, 'rithmetic, and citizenship

[Villages PL]

And man once was dependent upon wood for heating and cooking.
And upon himself to provide meat and food for his family.

Now, he is dependent upon an outside source.

I think as society improves and advances and population grows, YES, we are becoming more dependent on the government for more rules, regulations, standards, and common services, etc.

So, I think the evolution of the economic system (both local, national, and international) would tend to create more governmental regulations. If that is what you are saying big government is.

But, isn't that what an advanced society is?


Yes, I agree. But it's not just about regulations. It's about the whole package: the number of civil servants and the taxes to pay for it. Everyone shares in the responsibility by paying taxes. What should we call it? Big government? Collectivism?

[pqrstar]

Village PL states "Everyone shares in the responsibility by paying taxes"

Well, not everyone.

[rubicon]

VillagesPL: I don't quite understand your purpose here? Is your theme that our needs logically requires more expansive government? Or perhaps, your
theme is society starts with a need such as public schools and government can't help themselves and takes total control?

I want to respond with the thread's theme

Thank you

[Villages PL]

To me, industry is a trade.

I thought I picked a word that would cover every activity, like the banking industry or advertising industry.

I don't think public schools were created to teach automobile assembly, brick laying, truck driving, manufacturing, welding, pipefitting, baking, cooking, etc.

Perhaps not in the beginning. But if one could read and do math he might be qualified to serve as an apprentice. My father graduated, as a tool and die maker, from a public trade school.



Early American schools taught reading, writing, 'rithmetic, and citizenship

There was a man who lived in Leesburg and was featured in the Daily Sun a few times. The first time was when he turned 100. He eventually lived to 109. He said he quit school to help support his family. All he had was a grammar school diploma but he got a job in a bank as a bank teller. Over the years he was promoted to loan officer because they trained him for it.

[Villages PL]

Village PL states "Everyone shares in the responsibility by paying taxes"

Well, not everyone.

Okay, I stand corrected. Not everyone pays. I pay.

[Wandatime]

This may help further the discussion. Or not.

The Rise of Big Business and the Growth of Government : The Freeman : Foundation for Economic Education (http://fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-rise-of-big-business-and-the-growth-of-government)

[rubicon]

To me, industry is a trade.

I don't think public schools were created to teach automobile assembly, brick laying, truck driving, manufacturing, welding, pipefitting, baking, cooking, etc.

Early American schools taught reading, writing, 'rithmetic, and citizenship

Hi pqrstar: Actually that issue has been widely discussed in the papers. It connects with the escalating cost of college and the fact that graduates can't find jobs. This prompted the discussion of when high schools had college prep classes, business school and trades workshops auto, etc.

Experts have shown that high school kids could probably do the required work Math, English and yet prepare them for candidates trades. Many trade jobs are lacking candidates and these jobs pay as well as many college trained jobs.

[Villages PL]

VillagesPL: I don't quite understand your purpose here?

Well, my purpose is to become aware of how we got where we are.

Is your theme that our needs logically requires more expansive government?

Yes, we need industry to be prosperous and big government seems to follow as a natural consequence.

Or maybe your theme is society starts with a need such as public schools and government can't help themselves and takes total control?

In the beginning, I believe most Americans were farmers. Why would they have a need for schools? I think the need came as industry grew and required some minimum level of education.


Does that help any?

[rubicon]

Well, my purpose is to become aware of how we got where we are.



Yes, we need industry to be prosperous and big government seems to follow as a natural consequence.



In the beginning, I believe most Americans were farmers. Why would they have a need for schools? I think the need came as industry grew and required some minimum level of education.


Does that help any?

VillagesPL: If I understand your response "How we got where we are", it can be summed up simply by stating "necessity is the mother of invention" Each invention built on more demanding needs or wants. To engage in discussion of various industries organizations will take more space than I believe TOTV has and the format makes maintaining continuity almost impossible. I mean just look at the Ebola thread that has over 350 posts....who's on first?

[Villages PL]

This may help further the discussion. Or not.

The Rise of Big Business and the Growth of Government : The Freeman : Foundation for Economic Education (http://fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-rise-of-big-business-and-the-growth-of-government)

Very good. It makes one realize that it's a lot more complicated than first thought. Eventually, everyone got into the act of looking for government protections and that played a part in growing the size of government. :)

But it's just my nature to try to simplify things.

[Buffalo Jim]

Okay, that may have been a reason too. But I can't imagine it was that reason alone. Look at the big benefit to industry.


Look at the benefits to you the consumer as well as everyone else . What`s your point would you prefer that we travel on " wagon train trails " ?

Just amazing . Good Grief Charlie Brown !!

[graciegirl]

[

VPL says; (snipped)

In the beginning, I believe most Americans were farmers. Why would they have a need for schools? I think the need came as industry grew and required some minimum level of education.


Does that help any?[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







THIS may come as a surprise to many but farming is a job. That doesn't mean that farmers are without class and depth and other interests and they don't like ballet and opera and know higher math and enjoy reading great literature and debating issues other than how much fertilizer they will need.

I think most of us were born with a thirst for knowledge and a desire to know how things works and how things interact.

[gpirate]

The words have changed but the idea is basically the same.

Public schools were created to serve the needs of industry.

The national highway system likewise was to serve industry.

Big cities like New York City grew to serve commerce and you can't have a big city without city government to manage and coordinate the many daily activities. 1) Fire department 2) police dept. 3) health dept. 4) building department etc..

Ford's assembly line led to numerous motor vehicles and as they became more numerous we needed a Motor Vehicle Department

The Federal Aviation Administration was needed as air travel became more common.

It seems like big business and big government go hand in hand. All the above agencies were needed to facilitate business.

And last but not least we have the Affordable Care Act which will eventually lead to a single payer system. But that may require a lot of explanation.
Nothing here seems logical at all. You need to explain in more detail. The way I see it big business has been taxed heavy to create big govt. Look into the waste big govt. spends every year on useless things.

[dbussone]

Okay, I stand corrected. Not everyone pays. I pay.


Quite correct:
The question of how many people pay federal income taxes became a heated topic toward the end of the 2012 presidential campaign after Republican nominee Mitt Romney was videotaped telling supporters that 47 percent of Americans paid no federal income taxes. Romney was correct. Roughly 53 to 54 percent of Americans pay federal income tax annually. The other 46 to 47 percent for a variety of reasons, owe no federal income tax.

[Indy-Guy]

The national highway system likewise was to serve industry.


Amazing and here I thought it was to get the snowbirds back and forth to The Villages.

[CFrance]

Amazing and here I thought it was to get the snowbirds back and forth to The Villages.
No, then they would have roundabouts.:throwtomatoes:

[pqrstar]

What are you looking for? Details?

If you think public schools were created for some other reason, why don't you tell us about that other reason?

This is an interesting article on the subject

Compulsory Education (http://www.houseofpaine.org/public_schools.htm)

[pqrstar]

Yes, I agree. But it's not just about regulations. It's about the whole package: the number of civil servants and the taxes to pay for it. Everyone shares in the responsibility by paying taxes. What should we call it? Big government? Collectivism?

Food for thought.

Collectivism (http://www.houseofpaine.org/collectivism.html)

[sunnyatlast]

CHAPTER 12
The Bureaucracy
Chapter Study Outline

The paradox of the bureaucracy is that the same organization that does so many amazing things also does things that are inefficient and wasteful. Many bureaucratic failures can be explained by the bureaucracy’s procedures, including the complexity of tasks it undertakes, and by the political conflicts that ensue when elected officials and interest groups attempt to control bureaucrat’s actions.........

Chapter 12: The Bureaucracy | American Politics Today, Core 2e: W. W. Norton StudySpace (http://www.wwnorton.com/college/polisci/american-politics-today2/core/ch/12/outline.aspx)

[Sandtrap328]

No, then they would have roundabouts.:throwtomatoes:

As Larry the Cable Guy would say, "I don't care who you are. That's funny!"

[Villages PL]

Look at the benefits to you the consumer as well as everyone else . What`s your point would you prefer that we travel on " wagon train trails " ?

Just amazing . Good Grief Charlie Brown !!

My point is: As industry became established and grew, the growth of government followed along to facilitate that growth.

Consumers eventually benefited from it but they were not the ones asking for it. The point was to figure out the origin of growth in government.

:wave:

[Villages PL]

THIS may come as a surprise to many but farming is a job. That doesn't mean that farmers are without class and depth and other interests and they don't like ballet and opera and know higher math and enjoy reading great literature and debating issues other than how much fertilizer they will need.

I think most of us were born with a thirst for knowledge and a desire to know how things works and how things interact.

All true, but lacking proper context for this discussion. What was the impetus for creating the public school system? In the beginning, people had to struggle to survive by building their own house and planting crops. I doubt that the average farmer was yearning for opera and ballet classes. :)

[Villages PL]

Nothing here seems logical at all. You need to explain in more detail. The way I see it big business has been taxed heavy to create big govt. Look into the waste big govt. spends every year on useless things.

I think you just raised an interesting new aspect to this: Did big government come back to bite big business by imposing high taxes and lots of regulations? That's a good question but it wasn't my intention to go that far with this.

[Villages PL]

Amazing and here I thought it was to get the snowbirds back and forth to The Villages.

:thumbup: Yes! The travel industry. :wave:

[Villages PL]

This is an interesting article on the subject

Compulsory Education (http://www.houseofpaine.org/public_schools.htm)

Your link states that public schools were intended to be a mill for the creation of good citizens. I would add to that: A good citizen would have been someone with a work ethic and equipped with certain basic skills so as to accomplish whatever work needed to be done. At least in the beginning.

[Villages PL]

Food for thought.

Collectivism (http://www.houseofpaine.org/collectivism.html)

I can't believe I actually took the time to read all of it but once I got started I couldn't stop! Great link.....I highly recommend it.

:wave: