If not God, then how?

[tedquick]

Back on Sept 23rd, on the 4th page of the blog piece “Big Bang and the Bible” onslowe recommended the book “I don’t have enough faith to be an Atheist” by Norman Geisler. I just completed the book, thus my question and thank you, onslowe.

For me The Big Bang Theory adequately explains how God created the universe. Perhaps I should say that the BBTheory adequately explains to me the methodology that God utilized for His creation. If you are an atheist, and there is no God, then how can you explain the origin of the universe?

[Challenger]

Back on Sept 23rd, on the 4th page of the blog piece “Big Bang and the Bible” onslowe recommended the book “I don’t have enough faith to be an Atheist” by Norman Geisler. I just completed the book, thus my question and thank you, onslowe.

For me The Big Bang Theory adequately explains how God created the universe. Perhaps I should say that the BBTheory adequately explains to me the methodology that God utilized for His creation. If you are an atheist, and there is no God, then how can you explain the origin of the universe?

Who created God?

[Shimpy]

On a scale of 1 to 100 of intelligence we are 100 on this earth, the most intelligent by far.
If your dog sets by you and watches while you are on the internet and you try to explain to him what you are doing, you will never make him understand. He simply doesn't have the brain capacity to understand.
Now in the universe where there is probably many others than us we may be rated a 3 in intelligence out of 100. It's no wonder we can't expain the many things such as birth. What seems a miracle to us may seem only a simple occurance to them.

[tedquick]

Who created God?

While your question seems like a logical one, I don't know that any of us can understand, truly, what "infinite" means. Therefore I'm not sure any of us can understand that before the BB there was nothing, not even empty space, or time, just nothing except God. God always has been and always will be. He was there before the Big Bang. He created everything in the universe including time (and all of the other dimensions, whether that's a total of 11 or 21, or whatever it really is). I believe that before the BB there was nothing but God (well, the Triune). But I cannot tell you what "nothing" looks like. I'm not sure it can be explained in words that any of us could understand.

[KeepingItReal]

Who created God?

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”

[tippyclubb]

Who created God?

Humans create God. I don't go to church anymore, and I don't pray often. I do believe in a higher power, I believe goodness is inside of everyone. I strongly believe in karma. I believe doing small acts of kindness everyday takes us one more step to our true purpose in life. The Golden Rule is a major belief of all religions and God is just a name.

[KeepingItReal]

Humans create God. I don't go to church anymore, and I don't pray often. I do believe in a higher power, I believe goodness is inside of everyone. I strongly believe in karma. I believe doing small acts of kindness everyday takes us one more step to our true purpose in life. The Golden Rule is a major belief of all religions and God is just a name.


God is not just a name to those that know and provides guidance and a moral compass even for those that say they don't believe.. Don't believe in karma as there is no source for it, just happens? Do we really believe there is goodness in every person even the murderers and such?

Watch the video below and see if anything rings a bell.

Evolution -VS- GOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ#t=61

[tippyclubb]

Evolution -VS- GOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ#t=61

Yes, I watched your video all 38 minutes of it. According to it it I'm an atheist, which I was totally unaware of. Again, just another name.

I've done the church routine for many years and witness so much hypocrisy by God bearing people it soured me. I left the church disillusioned and vowed not to live my life being hypocritical.

I try to live my life according to the Golden Rule. You people on this forum know nothing about the goodness Tom & I have done for many charitable organizations. You know nothing about the countless soup kitchens we have worked in. Have you ever walked the streets of Detroit handing out food to the homeless? Have you ever sung Christmas carols in a nursing home? Have you done Meals On Wheels? Are you involved with Rainbow Connections or Fulfill A Dream? Have you ever welcomed a new person personally in TV? The list goes on. Small acts of kindness is powerful.

Tell me what you have done in the name of God to make other people's lives better. Do you live by The Golden Rule? Do you want to go to the Ocala National Forest with me to help feed the staving kids, and people there? I will come pick you up and together we can feed the hungry. It's not a pretty picture. PM me if you want to help out.

[tippyclubb]

God is not just a name to those that know and provides guidance and a moral compass even for those that say they don't believe.. Don't believe in karma as there is no source for it, just happens? Do we really believe there is goodness in every person even the murderers and such?

Watch the video below and see if anything rings a bell.

Evolution -VS- GOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ#t=61




I find it interesting you edited your post to include words totally different than what I responded too.

[Bonanza]

Yes, I watched your video all 38 minutes of it. According to it it I'm an atheist, which I was totally unaware of. Again, just another name.

I've done the church routine for many years and witness so much hypocrisy by God bearing people it soured me. I left the church disillusioned and vowed not to live my life being hypocritical.

I try to live my life according to the Golden Rule. You people on this forum know nothing about the goodness Tom & I have done for many charitable organizations. You know nothing about the countless soup kitchens we have worked in. Have you ever walked the streets of Detroit handing out food to the homeless? Have you ever sung Christmas carols in a nursing home? Have you done Meals On Wheels? Are you involved with Rainbow Connections or Fulfill A Dream? Have you ever welcomed a new person personally in TV? The list goes on. Small acts of kindness is powerful.

Tell me what you have done in the name of God to make other people's lives better. Do you live by The Golden Rule? Do you want to go to the Ocala National Forest with me to help feed the staving kids, and people there? I will come pick you up and together we can feed the hungry. It's not a pretty picture. PM me if you want to help out.

Most religious people cannot say they have helped in the many organizations and other things that you say you have done. They may say they are Christians, but what have they done beyond going to church every week? It's like the old story: just because you work in a garage doesn't make you a mechanic. Well, just because you go to church doesn't make you a good Christian either. How many religious people pray and the minute they walk out of their place of worship, all is forgotten.

I would much rather see people take action with some group or organization that is involved in helping others in some way, than those who regularly go to church and other than that, do nothing.

There are those who say or think that being an atheist is bad? So what is bad about it? Nothing. That's what!

BTW -- do you know what God looks like? I do. She's black.

[Bonanza]

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”



How about being specific and cite an example?

[BarryRX]

While your question seems like a logical one, I don't know that any of us can understand, truly, what "infinite" means. Therefore I'm not sure any of us can understand that before the BB there was nothing, not even empty space, or time, just nothing except God. God always has been and always will be. He was there before the Big Bang. He created everything in the universe including time (and all of the other dimensions, whether that's a total of 11 or 21, or whatever it really is). I believe that before the BB there was nothing but God (well, the Triune). But I cannot tell you what "nothing" looks like. I'm not sure it can be explained in words that any of us could understand.
Why can you believe that god is eternal but not believe the universe is eternal? And, of all the creation myths that humans have come up with, why do you believe this particular one? I think the difference between what I believe in and what you believe in is that if you would show me proof of what you believe in, I would change my mind. But there is nothing that anyone could show you that can make you change your mind, so these posts become nothing more than a forum for you to repeat over and over what your "beliefs" are. Throughout the ages, your original question "if not god then how" has been asked about fire, thunder and lightning, birth, death, disease, good and evil, etc.

[rubicon]

What I have gathered from this thread is that whether it is a question of God or science both are based on faith as both gather their information from past history. Generally speaking the commonality among religious people is they are mostly warm and most welcoming whereas atheist are stern almost angry all the time. a primary example of what I speak is Bill Maher or the atheist organization from Wisconsin Freedom From Religion. This was noticed in the atheist community and now according to a recent WSJ article they have changed their approach to be more welcoming.

Christian believe in creation. Atheist believe in evolution some concur that a combination of intelligent design is possible. some believe that the reason scientist can't find the missing link to man is because aliens came with artificial insemmination procedures to speed up evolution. They point to those fiery chariot in the sky as space vehicles.

The problem with this exercise is that there are simply too many unknown unknowns (Donald Rumfseld)

So in my view one has to be content with their belief because it doesn't appear as of this date that anyone has an answer to this riddle

I opine I do not argue and I respect everyone's point of view

[onslowe]

Please, a comment or two. It seems to me that one denigrates another's beliefs by styling them as "beliefs," something less than or something not worthy of acceptance.

Secondly, and apologies to Nietzsche, this is a realm of faith, not a prove or disprove science lab ostensibly ruled by reason alone. I think that man is motivated by faith, reason and emotion… not just reason. So, to the extent that we might not actually see
or prove scientifically those things we believe, then maybe belief of this enormity is beyond the scope of mere reason. Discussion is a ping pong match only. Two different languages perhaps are being used - perhaps. Certainly, as has been said, one who is skeptical of one set of beliefs is actually a true believer in another set of beliefs.

When someone says "…of all the creation myths….why believe in this particular one?" it is apparent to me that they themselves are saying that particular 'myth' is false. That logically implies that they know what is true because they know what is false. So, then, what is that truth? It's easy in our day and age to make an argument 'seem' logical but it rarely in this type of exchange ever is. What is the truth for each of us?

It is unfortunate also that today words no longer connote their proper meanings all of the time. An example is the popular inference drawn from the word "myth." It goes far beyond its now commonplace understanding of foolish and false belief. But people will still use it to gently ridicule another's belief in a variety of things, as though that was its full extent of meaning.

Aside from that, I do not understand how one could entertain the idea of the universe being eternal as a serious thought. The universe is matter, isn't it or have my science teachers all taught me lies?

These threads are not going to resolve anything. I agree with Blaise Pascal's statement "People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive."

Please, I encourage you to read "I Don't Have Enough Faith To be An Atheist" by Norman Geisler. It deals with the blind faith of atheists and/or agnostics.

[quirky3]

Yes, I watched your video all 38 minutes of it. According to it it I'm an atheist, which I was totally unaware of. Again, just another name.

I've done the church routine for many years and witness so much hypocrisy by God bearing people it soured me. I left the church disillusioned and vowed not to live my life being hypocritical.

I try to live my life according to the Golden Rule. You people on this forum know nothing about the goodness Tom & I have done for many charitable organizations. You know nothing about the countless soup kitchens we have worked in. Have you ever walked the streets of Detroit handing out food to the homeless? Have you ever sung Christmas carols in a nursing home? Have you done Meals On Wheels? Are you involved with Rainbow Connections or Fulfill A Dream? Have you ever welcomed a new person personally in TV? The list goes on. Small acts of kindness is powerful.

Tell me what you have done in the name of God to make other people's lives better. Do you live by The Golden Rule? Do you want to go to the Ocala National Forest with me to help feed the staving kids, and people there? I will come pick you up and together we can feed the hungry. It's not a pretty picture. PM me if you want to help out.

I love both of your posts here and relate very well to them. Thank you for posting!

[tedquick]

Why can you believe that god is eternal but not believe the universe is eternal? And, of all the creation myths that humans have come up with, why do you believe this particular one? I think the difference between what I believe in and what you believe in is that if you would show me proof of what you believe in, I would change my mind. But there is nothing that anyone could show you that can make you change your mind, so these posts become nothing more than a forum for you to repeat over and over what your "beliefs" are. Throughout the ages, your original question "if not god then how" has been asked about fire, thunder and lightning, birth, death, disease, good and evil, etc.

Hello, Barry, while we probably all agree that “man”, even though we may be reasonably bright, does not have all the answers, there is very strong evidence that our universe came from nothing, in other words, the universe is not eternal. It therefore makes more sense to me that there was a Creator than that all of this “just happened”. Does it make sense that there was nothing (whatever that means) and then suddenly there was this “big bang” and 13.9 billion years later here we are or that there was (and always has been) a supreme being that caused the Big Bang to take place?

Even though there may be no “proof” that God exists, I believe there’s more evidence that He does than any of the other beliefs (myths, if you will) that I’ve heard bandied about. There *is* a universe (or multiverses perhaps) so therefore it/they had to come into being by some means or another. I don’t think that “things just happen”. I believe in causality, don’t you?

[tedquick]

Yes, I watched your video all 38 minutes of it. According to it it I'm an atheist, which I was totally unaware of. Again, just another name.

I've done the church routine for many years and witness so much hypocrisy by God bearing people it soured me. I left the church disillusioned and vowed not to live my life being hypocritical.

I try to live my life according to the Golden Rule. You people on this forum know nothing about the goodness Tom & I have done for many charitable organizations. You know nothing about the countless soup kitchens we have worked in. Have you ever walked the streets of Detroit handing out food to the homeless? Have you ever sung Christmas carols in a nursing home? Have you done Meals On Wheels? Are you involved with Rainbow Connections or Fulfill A Dream? Have you ever welcomed a new person personally in TV? The list goes on. Small acts of kindness is powerful.

Tell me what you have done in the name of God to make other people's lives better. Do you live by The Golden Rule? Do you want to go to the Ocala National Forest with me to help feed the staving kids, and people there? I will come pick you up and together we can feed the hungry. It's not a pretty picture. PM me if you want to help out.

Hello, tippyclubb -- I was disillusioned myself many years ago with all of the hypocrisy that I saw in “church going people”. A number of years ago, however, I returned to Christ, and the church, and of course realized that every person in that church is a sinner. I certainly am. While I mostly live a good life, I certainly am a fallible human being. I am grateful that I can rub shoulders with others who believe similarly to me. So far I have not met a perfect and sinless person and have no expectation that I will.

I compliment Tom and you on your good works. More of us should be less selfish and I am in that camp. Each of us has to decide for ourselves what and how we assist those who truly are in need just as each of us must decide on which spiritual path we will take.

BTW, I can't tell you what is right for you. I only know what is right for me.

[tucson]

We can't SEE air, BUT we can't LIVE without it, and we KNOW it is a reality. Same with God.

[TheVillageChicken]

The point of argument is to convince or persuade. No one on either side is going to experience an epiphanic moment while sipping their coffee and reading this thread. The dogma on both sides is too powerful.

[Challenger]

We can't SEE air, BUT we can't LIVE without it, and we KNOW it is a reality. Same with God.

Oh, but we can see air through scientific methods. We can measure it's density, chemical makeup, polutants etc.

[tucson]

Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right. (Abe Lincoln quote)

[onslowe]

Oh, but we can see air through scientific methods. We can measure it's density, chemical makeup, polutants etc.

Can anyone, though, describe the aroma of a rose? :)

[tedquick]

The point of argument is to convince or persuade. No one on either side is going to experience an epiphanic moment while sipping their coffee and reading this thread. The dogma on both sides is too powerful.

Your point is well taken and it reminds me of a situation I was in a number of years ago. I am politically very conservative and had a good friend who was just as passionate as I, except he was a liberal. Our discussions were often times a gathering place for the entertainment of others. We finally had to cease those discussions because he ended up getting very angry when he could no longer defend his positions. So as “they” say in religion and politics, there is no winning. When there are intractable views on either side, a debate (or discussion) could very well sink into an argument where nothing is being accomplished except to anger the party whose position seems indefensible. Once that happens nothing is being accomplished except to farther divide us from each other. (There is too much of that presently being done purposefully in Washington).

The conscious reason for my topics is to share thoughts, beliefs and feelings with others who have similar and even those with opposite views. I think a lively debate/discussion is good for all involved. As long as communication is taking place something is being accomplished, whether that be a changing of heart or mind, or at a minimum some thought provoking exchanges. None of us live on an island. We are all a part of something much larger.

[KeepingItReal]

I find it interesting you edited your post to include words totally different than what I responded too.


I edited at 12:45 AM and you replied at 12:50 AM, don't see a problem. Please explain if so.

[KeepingItReal]

Yes, I watched your video all 38 minutes of it. According to it it I'm an atheist, which I was totally unaware of. Again, just another name.

I've done the church routine for many years and witness so much hypocrisy by God bearing people it soured me. I left the church disillusioned and vowed not to live my life being hypocritical.

I try to live my life according to the Golden Rule. You people on this forum know nothing about the goodness Tom & I have done for many charitable organizations. You know nothing about the countless soup kitchens we have worked in. Have you ever walked the streets of Detroit handing out food to the homeless? Have you ever sung Christmas carols in a nursing home? Have you done Meals On Wheels? Are you involved with Rainbow Connections or Fulfill A Dream? Have you ever welcomed a new person personally in TV? The list goes on. Small acts of kindness is powerful.

Tell me what you have done in the name of God to make other people's lives better. Do you live by The Golden Rule? Do you want to go to the Ocala National Forest with me to help feed the staving kids, and people there? I will come pick you up and together we can feed the hungry. It's not a pretty picture. PM me if you want to help out.



All the things you have mentioned are good of course and I and others too have done many things to help other people as most people have a desire to help others. Good works done for the right reason are always good but usually we don't tell everyone about all the things we have done expecting praise from man.

To have someone say God is just made up in peoples minds and attack those that do believe is very insulting and is not necessary. I hope you can find faith and God and do not wish to offend or insult anyone. I will explain why I do know and do believe and listen to why anyone says they don't. It is hard to understand why it is necessary to attack believers and their beliefs and then not expect them to want to reply.

Best Wishes

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[KeepingItReal]

Most religious people cannot say they have helped in the many organizations and other things that you say you have done. They may say they are Christians, but what have they done beyond going to church every week? It's like the old story: just because you work in a garage doesn't make you a mechanic. Well, just because you go to church doesn't make you a good Christian either. How many religious people pray and the minute they walk out of their place of worship, all is forgotten.

I would much rather see people take action with some group or organization that is involved in helping others in some way, than those who regularly go to church and other than that, do nothing.

There are those who say or think that being an atheist is bad? So what is bad about it? Nothing. That's what!

BTW -- do you know what God looks like? I do. She's black.


Throwing around a lot of accusations at others just because they believe and don't always come up to non believers standards seems to be a common practice even though they don't know if it is true or not..

Fortunately believers and non believers will be measured by God's yardstick and not mans.

I would say if one is determined to be an atheist then so be it but it is not appropriate to throw stones at people who are not atheist or their beliefs.

Many do many good things but feel it inappropriate to tell everyone about them.

People judge right or wrong by what they see on the outside and God judges what's on the inside.

PS: It matters not one little bit what God looks like, he loved us before we were ever even born so who are we to question anything.


King James Version of Isaiah 64:6.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[KeepingItReal]

How about being specific and cite an example?



And that would be an example of what ?

If it is that God exists, how about the Holy Bible, thousands of churches, millions and millions of believers....

[cattywampus]

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”



True.!!


We all know there are Known Knowns
as well as Known Unknowns.

There are also Uknown Unknowns.
Thing that we don't know that we don't know.

.

[tedquick]

Why can you believe that god is eternal but not believe the universe is eternal? And, of all the creation myths that humans have come up with, why do you believe this particular one? I think the difference between what I believe in and what you believe in is that if you would show me proof of what you believe in, I would change my mind. But there is nothing that anyone could show you that can make you change your mind, so these posts become nothing more than a forum for you to repeat over and over what your "beliefs" are. Throughout the ages, your original question "if not god then how" has been asked about fire, thunder and lightning, birth, death, disease, good and evil, etc.

Barry, I reread most of this thread. You just said that if I would show you proof of what I believe in, you would change your mind. So, I am going to challenge you to read "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman Geisler. If you don't want to buy the book I'll loan you my copy. That is not why I believe, but it is difficult to NOT believe if you read and absorb what is being said. Onslowe has suggested twice now that all should read the book. I read it based on Onslowe's first suggestion and now I'm re-enforcing that position.

If anyone reading this any doubt about your Christianity, don't believe or just want re-enforcement to bolster your belief then it is a must read.

If Barry doesn't want to borrow it I'll loan it to anyone who wants a good read.

[tippyclubb]

[QUOTE=KeepingItReal;961470][B]

All the things you have mentioned are good of course and I and others too have done many things to help other people as most people have a desire to help others. Good works done for the right reason are always good but usually we don't tell everyone about all the things we have done expecting praise from man.

To have someone say God is just made up in peoples minds and attack those that do believe is very insulting and is not necessary. I hope you can find faith and God and do not wish to offend or insult anyone. I will explain why I do know and do believe and listen to why anyone says they don't. It is hard to understand why it is necessary to attack believers and their beliefs and then not expect them to want to reply.

Best Wishes

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.



You post a 38 minute link for me explaining how I am an atheist, and you think I have attacked you? I have re read my post and don't see how I insulted you, let alone attacked you. I am sorry you took it that way as it was not my intentions. I was trying to convey a person does not have to be religious to be a good person. I don't live my life according to the word of God or the Bible. The Golden Rule is my guideline and it works very well for me. And with that I am done with this thread.

[Bonanza]

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”




How about being specific and cite an example?



And that would be an example of what ?

If it is that God exists, how about the Holy Bible, thousands of churches, millions and millions of believers....



No, no, no. You're coming in the back door. It was "I" who asked you to give an example of what you really meant about the absense of evidence, etc. So don't turn it around by not responding to the question and by asking me a question.

So you tell me what the example is, in plain English, keeping in mind that there are millions and millions of non-believers, too.

[Villages PL]

(snipped)...... before the BB there was nothing, not even empty space, or time, just nothing except God. God always has been and always will be.

How do you know that? Where's your proof? (Please don't tell me I have to read a book to find out.)

[onslowe]

Contempt prior to investigation is a cause of ignorance. The "proof" you demand of Ted is something that occurs after reading a series of explanations, narrative comments by physicists, and carefully laid out logical honest arguments. Why are you, who seemingly reads so much in the area of food and health, refusing to read a book that might…just might give you food for thought.

At least, you would have investigated and thought.

What a sad statement your post makes for those who worship skepticism and the false god of reason - very selective, dishonest reason. Have courage and read "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist."

[tedquick]

How do you know that? Where's your proof? (Please don't tell me I have to read a book to find out.)

Great question but you know as well as I do that there is no “proof” of what existed before the Big Bang. There isn’t even any proof of a BB, it simply seems to be the most widely accepted “possible” explanation for the origin of the universe. Now let me throw a curve at you: the theory suggests that the expansion of an infinitely small and dense singularity is what “birthed” the universe as we know it today. What there is even less explanation for is how long that singularity might have existed before it expanded. And it is even more complicated than that because before the BB, the theory (additionally supported by Einstein’s theory of relativity) suggests that there was no time. With there being no time, and no thing outside of that infinitely small and dense singularity, in today’s language, there was nothing. BTW, I am not smart enough to understand Einstein’s theory of relativity, so I don’t want to imply that, but I do understand parts of what it and other theories might suggest and based on that information and using today’s language, as I understand our language, effectively there was nothing before the BB.

And then along comes quantum physics and some other possible explanations for what might have been “before” but none have been accepted as readily and as widely as the BB Theory. The bottom line is, and both you and I know it, this is all theory and NONE of it can be proven in a lab today. This and all other credible theories are run on mathematical models, all of which are above my pay grade, but I do accept the opinions of the experts.

I’m sure your comment about “. . . . to read a book” is because I suggested (actually challenged) BarryRX to read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist”. I suggested that he, (and I think you should too) read the book because the length of the proof he requested would not be allowed on this blog.

Oh, and by the way, what’s wrong with reading a book? It is a great book! And it might surprise but even more importantly, it might cause you to take another (or at least different) look at not only Christianity, but also the Big Bang. Take care and keep smiling.

[onslowe]

Ted, You have a wonderful style and a thoughtful mind that's willing to investigate. I know I will learn how to deal better with others by reading your posts. Thank you. :)

[KeepingItReal]

No, no, no. You're coming in the back door. It was "I" who asked you to give an example of what you really meant about the absense of evidence, etc. So don't turn it around by not responding to the question and by asking me a question.

So you tell me what the example is, in plain English, keeping in mind that there are millions and millions of non-believers, too.




There is no evidence that you apparently so desire to prove anything and would you even believe it if there were something. The absence of this evidence whatever non believers think it might be they deserve is certainly in no way evidence that God is not real and alive in the lives of those that believe and have faith.

God created our world as it is now for our sake. We are not worthy to question anything as he created us. We are not in any position to demand any answers about anything.

Romans 1:25
King James Version. Romans 1:25.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Many think they will have to give up a lot of things if they believe and this is not the case as you won't want those things anymore.

Faith far exceeds any physical evidence that might or might not be real. Once you have repented and are saved after hearing the gospel preached you will have the spirit of God within you and this will always be all the evidence you ever need that you'll have a better place to go at the end of life here.

John Chapter 20

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[2BNTV]

What I have gathered from this thread is that whether it is a question of God or science both are based on faith as both gather their information from past history. Generally speaking the commonality among religious people is they are mostly warm and most welcoming whereas atheist are stern almost angry all the time. a primary example of what I speak is Bill Maher or the atheist organization from Wisconsin Freedom From Religion. This was noticed in the atheist community and now according to a recent WSJ article they have changed their approach to be more welcoming.

Christian believe in creation. Atheist believe in evolution some concur that a combination of intelligent design is possible. some believe that the reason scientist can't find the missing link to man is because aliens came with artificial insemmination procedures to speed up evolution. They point to those fiery chariot in the sky as space vehicles.

The problem with this exercise is that there are simply too many unknown unknowns (Donald Rumfseld)

So in my view one has to be content with their belief because it doesn't appear as of this date that anyone has an answer to this riddle

I opine I do not argue and I respect everyone's point of view

Totally agree. Whether one believes or not is a personal decision and will never change the mind, of another person.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". Dale Carnegie

I personally believe in GOD's two greatest commandments. "Love your GOD with all your heart and soul and love one another as I have loved you"

[charlie49]

People who do not believe in any gods usually view the bible as a book of mythology, stories created by people trying to explain their version of history. It amazes me how many people believe in their god, but, do not believe in the Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Hindu gods, Aztec gods and the other hundreds of gods created by people through out history. In short the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers just dismiss one more god than the believers.

If people were exposed to religions when they reached an age of reason things would probably be different, children are intellectually defenseless and accept what adults tell them. If people learned that it is not uncommon to have virgin births in religions and they all tend to promise an after-life the current popular religions would not appear so special.

Non-believers are not trying to prove that gods do not exist, they just do not believe in them. One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

[tedquick]

Ted, You have a wonderful style and a thoughtful mind that's willing to investigate. I know I will learn how to deal better with others by reading your posts. Thank you. :)

You are too kind. I am part of a small Men's Group and at our next meeting I'm going to suggest we consider a study based around "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist", the very book that you had recommended to someone in an earlier post. So I thank you, Onslowe. To you and to all who are reading this string, have a fabulous rest of the weekend.

[tedquick]

Charlie49 -- One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.[/QUOTE]

I love these little “thinker statements”. “One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.”

While it cannot be proven that “anything” does not exist, and on the surface I agree with that, the only “thing” that I am aware of that can be proven that it does not exist is “nothing”. Oh, and BTW, talking squirrels *do* exist. Please note: A Talking Squirrel... - YouTube Have a great day!! (Now where is that "smiley face"?)

[Challenger]

People who do not believe in any gods usually view the bible as a book of mythology, stories created by people trying to explain their version of history. It amazes me how many people believe in their god, but, do not believe in the Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Hindu gods, Aztec gods and the other hundreds of gods created by people through out history. In short the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers just dismiss one more god than the believers.

If people were exposed to religions when they reached an age of reason things would probably be different, children are intellectually defenseless and accept what adults tell them. If people learned that it is not uncommon to have virgin births in religions and they all tend to promise an after-life the current popular religions would not appear so special.

Non-believers are not trying to prove that gods do not exist, they just do not believe in them. One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

It is extremely hard to have a reasonable discussion about religion when one party always reverts to a bible verse as proof of their position. It shortly becomes a circular argument from which there is no exit.

Quite often I find that after such discussions , the "believer" will admit that they have lost respect for those who admit that they believe differently.

For me the "Spirit of God" lives in those who love, are merciful, generous and believe in justice , whatever their spiritual beliefs.

[quirky3]

People who do not believe in any gods usually view the bible as a book of mythology, stories created by people trying to explain their version of history. It amazes me how many people believe in their god, but, do not believe in the Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Hindu gods, Aztec gods and the other hundreds of gods created by people through out history. In short the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers just dismiss one more god than the believers.

If people were exposed to religions when they reached an age of reason things would probably be different, children are intellectually defenseless and accept what adults tell them. If people learned that it is not uncommon to have virgin births in religions and they all tend to promise an after-life the current popular religions would not appear so special.

Non-believers are not trying to prove that gods do not exist, they just do not believe in them. One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

It is extremely hard to have a reasonable discussion about religion when one party always reverts to a bible verse as proof of their position. It shortly becomes a circular argument from which there is no exit.

Quite often I find that after such discussions , the "believer" will admit that they have lost respect for those who admit that they believe differently.

For me the "Spirit of God" lives in those who love, are merciful, generous and believe in justice , whatever their spiritual beliefs.

I appreciate the comparison to belief in God(s) in history. Modern day believers are no different than people in history who believed theirs was the one true (fill in the blank). It makes their life meaningful, and that's generally a good thing.
To direct people to certain scriptures or books is also common in modern life - again, fill in the blank. We can peacefully co-exist by truly understanding and respecting each others belief and non-beliefs.

I understand and appreciate people who do not subscribe to a particular God, but who do believe in good and live their lives accordingly. As stated above, those who love, are merciful, generous and believe in justice, whatever their spiritual beliefs.

[2BNTV]

Charlie49 -- One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.

I love these little “thinker statements”. “One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.”

While it cannot be proven that “anything” does not exist, and on the surface I agree with that, the only “thing” that I am aware of that can be proven that it does not exist is “nothing”. Oh, and BTW, talking squirrels *do* exist. Please note: A Talking Squirrel... - YouTube Have a great day!! (Now where is that "smiley face"?)[/QUOTE]

I must digress but this analogy reminds me of a late friends joke.

Hijack!! Hijack!!! Hijack!!!

"Even a blind squirrel, can find it's n*ts! :D

"Forgive me father, for I know not, what I do", (paraphrased).

[TheVillageChicken]

“Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence.”



That is the old fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantium. Using that old saw, I can defend the concept that a piece of toast is the supreme being.

[tedquick]

I love these little “thinker statements”. “One cannot prove that anything does not exist. I do not believe in talking squirrels, but, I cannot prove they do not exist.”

While it cannot be proven that “anything” does not exist, and on the surface I agree with that, the only “thing” that I am aware of that can be proven that it does not exist is “nothing”. Oh, and BTW, talking squirrels *do* exist. Please note: A Talking Squirrel... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wa8rXc1Z4) Have a great day!! (Now where is that "smiley face"?)

I must digress but this analogy reminds me of a late friends joke.

Hijack!! Hijack!!! Hijack!!!

"Even a blind squirrel, can find it's n*ts! :D

"Forgive me father, for I know not, what I do", (paraphrased).[/QUOTE]

A life lived without humor would be a sad sad life to be living. "Quick" diversions from a topic are generally fun. :)

[rubicon]

Your point is well taken and it reminds me of a situation I was in a number of years ago. I am politically very conservative and had a good friend who was just as passionate as I, except he was a liberal. Our discussions were often times a gathering place for the entertainment of others. We finally had to cease those discussions because he ended up getting very angry when he could no longer defend his positions. So as “they” say in religion and politics, there is no winning. When there are intractable views on either side, a debate (or discussion) could very well sink into an argument where nothing is being accomplished except to anger the party whose position seems indefensible. Once that happens nothing is being accomplished except to farther divide us from each other. (There is too much of that presently being done purposefully in Washington).

The conscious reason for my topics is to share thoughts, beliefs and feelings with others who have similar and even those with opposite views. I think a lively debate/discussion is good for all involved. As long as communication is taking place something is being accomplished, whether that be a changing of heart or mind, or at a minimum some thought provoking exchanges. None of us live on an island. We are all a part of something much larger.

tedquick: you underscore exactly what is wrong with our society today. My Dad and hi boyhood friend argued politics there entire life my father a liberal Democratic and his friend Tony a conservative Republican If a stranger listened to them they would have thought they would come to blows. Nope when they finished they hugged had a brewski and continued with other topics. People can't do that anymore and your friend is a prime example of that.

[rubicon]

It might help if posters if theyseparate the discussion of GOD vis a vis religion because all it does is confuse the main issue and that is does GOD exist?

A person may no longer follow a particular religion or any religion because of human omissions or commissions.

Science follows its consecutive discoveries to replace a previous theory or add on to it and use them to support their beliefs.

Christians follow the bible and utilize it to support their beliefs

A person can be a Christian and not belong to any religion

[tedquick]

It might help if posters if theyseparate the discussion of GOD vis a vis religion because all it does is confuse the main issue and that is does GOD exist?

A person may no longer follow a particular religion or any religion because of human omissions or commissions.

Science follows its consecutive discoveries to replace a previous theory or add on to it and use them to support their beliefs.

Christians follow the bible and utilize it to support their beliefs

A person can be a Christian and not belong to any religion

I agree with your entire post except that in science there are “laboratory” proofs that are available for testing and experimentation, while in religion (or the simple act of believing there is a God or not) no such laboratory proofs are available.

While you and I are a little off topic (but maybe we’re really not), you bring up an excellent point: I think religion is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity. I believe in God and in the redemption of His Son. “Religion” gets carried away with its own particular versions of “the right way to believe” while it is each individual’s right to decide on their own how and what they choose/want to believe. After all, if God Himself has given us free will to choose to believe or not, why is it that man thinks he should decide or judge for any/all others?

Or is it man’s insecurity that has frightened him into judging others who think/believe differently than he does? After all, if “you” think differently than I do then one of us has to be wrong and because of my precarious walk, I dare not let that error reside within me, therefore, the euphemistic “you” must be wrong.

I’m interested in your or any other reader’s thoughts.

[quirky3]

I agree with your entire post except that in science there are “laboratory” proofs that are available for testing and experimentation, while in religion (or the simple act of believing there is a God or not) no such laboratory proofs are available.

While you and I are a little off topic (but maybe we’re really not), you bring up an excellent point: I think religion is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity. I believe in God and in the redemption of His Son. “Religion” gets carried away with its own particular versions of “the right way to believe” while it is each individual’s right to decide on their own how and what they choose/want to believe. After all, if God Himself has given us free will to choose to believe or not, why is it that man thinks he should decide or judge for any/all others?

Or is it man’s insecurity that has frightened him into judging others who think/believe differently than he does? After all, if “you” think differently than I do then one of us has to be wrong and because of my precarious walk, I dare not let that error reside within me, therefore, the euphemistic “you” must be wrong.

I’m interested in your or any other reader’s thoughts.

I strongly agree with most of the statements you just made....very astute. I would love if people were much more inclusive and focused on discovering and leveraging our common values to help others and make the world a better place. Then you have "we", not "us" and "them".
Fear and man's own particular versions of “the right way to believe” work against all that.

[rubicon]

I agree with your entire post except that in science there are “laboratory” proofs that are available for testing and experimentation, while in religion (or the simple act of believing there is a God or not) no such laboratory proofs are available.

While you and I are a little off topic (but maybe we’re really not), you bring up an excellent point: I think religion is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity. I believe in God and in the redemption of His Son. “Religion” gets carried away with its own particular versions of “the right way to believe” while it is each individual’s right to decide on their own how and what they choose/want to believe. After all, if God Himself has given us free will to choose to believe or not, why is it that man thinks he should decide or judge for any/all others?

Or is it man’s insecurity that has frightened him into judging others who think/believe differently than he does? After all, if “you” think differently than I do then one of us has to be wrong and because of my precarious walk, I dare not let that error reside within me, therefore, the euphemistic “you” must be wrong.

I’m interested in your or any other reader’s thoughts.

tedquick you and I agree to the shortcomings of religions and I am speaking from an overview of religion. I am certain that many individuals take comfort in their deep seated religious beliefs Catholics Protestant, Mormon, etc.

However when it come to science we differ. Laboratory studies are subject to error, sometimes exaggerated because of hubris or out of desperation. Further science is the continuing study of disproving a previous theory and as such it is never settled. Finally and overall it is ridden with confirmation bias and too often inferences that are pure speculation such as why dinosaurs disappeared

Essentially whether is is GOD or science they are both faith based

I greatly respect you deep faith as it takes great courage to get to that point

[KayakerNC]

Essentially whether is is GOD or science they are both faith based.

Science is not based on faith. Science is based on evidence.

Is science faith-based? - Bad Astronomy | DiscoverMagazine.com : Bad Astronomy (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/18/is-science-faith-based/#.VFaUlzCJOuY)

Faith in science and religion: Truth, authority, and the orderliness of nature. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/faith_in_science_and_religion_truth_authority_and_ the_orderliness_of_nature.html)

Science Is Not Based on Faith*|*Victor Stenger (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/science-is-not-based-on-f_b_676016.html)

[rubicon]

Science is not based on faith. Science is based on evidence.

Is science faith-based? - Bad Astronomy | DiscoverMagazine.com : Bad Astronomy (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/18/is-science-faith-based/#.VFaUlzCJOuY)

Faith in science and religion: Truth, authority, and the orderliness of nature. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/faith_in_science_and_religion_truth_authority_and_ the_orderliness_of_nature.html)

Science Is Not Based on Faith*|*Victor Stenger (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/science-is-not-based-on-f_b_676016.html)

KakayerNC

Thank you for those article they do give one pause for thought and they are very enlightening. good information thank you.

I noticed that in the first referenced article the author stated : "The scientific method makes one assumption and one assumption only, the Universe obeys a set of rules." But does all of the Universe, obey a set of rules, the same set of rules. As vast and complex this issue envelopes what rules are those and the bigger question is WHO MADE THOSE RULES AND WHO CONTROLS THEM?

Is this assumption an admission of faith? All the discoveries they cite relate to the Earth per se
but do they or can they relate to the entire Universe, a Universe we only now speculate about? One has to admit that it takes an act of faith to explore a country, a world, a theory. What the authors have done is to express the end of the story (result) but the beginning all had to have a faith based element by the scientist to even contemplate to explore their curosity.

[Shimpy]

If you are an atheist, and there is no God, then how can you explain the origin of the universe?

We can't even explain how to cure the common cold or eliminate cancer. How in the world can you expect us to explain the origin of the universe with our limited intelligence? If you give credit to God for things we can't explain, then you can give him credit for the cold or cancer.

[tucson]

How an Atheist Found God - Why the Change - What Facts Led to Believing in God (http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html)

[charlie49]

"If you are an atheist, and there is no God, then how can you explain the origin of the universe?"

Somethings are just beyond our current frames of reference and hopefully people will remain curious about these ideas like the origins of the universe and learn more in the future. This is different than concluding there must be a supernatural being involved in creating the universe because we do not have another answer.

The question makes me think of what ancient people thought about the cause of thunder. Their understanding of science so limited, they thought it must be caused by the gods. They had no other answer to what caused thunder. The question was beyond their frame of reference.

I cannot explain the origin of the universe, but, I remain curious about it.

[tedquick]

How an Atheist Found God - Why the Change - What Facts Led to Believing in God (http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html)

Great piece -- pieces actually. Thanks

[tedquick]

"If you are an atheist, and there is no God, then how can you explain the origin of the universe?"

Somethings are just beyond our current frames of reference and hopefully people will remain curious about these ideas like the origins of the universe and learn more in the future. This is different than concluding there must be a supernatural being involved in creating the universe because we do not have another answer.

The question makes me think of what ancient people thought about the cause of thunder. Their understanding of science so limited, they thought it must be caused by the gods. They had no other answer to what caused thunder. The question was beyond their frame of reference.

I cannot explain the origin of the universe, but, I remain curious about it.

I am not a believer because believing is the default position when there is no other answer. I believe because of all of the evidence around us that points to a God. Many have offered pieces of that evidence within this string. tucson offered a site that has 2 additional sites within the initial reading. Onslowe (after reading it I, too have recommended it) has suggested the same book twice within this reading. There simply is evidence of God. While it may not be provable in a laboratory today, there is so much evidence that Onslowe's recommended book, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" should give you a strong idea as to its content. Bottom line of the book is this: after looking at all of the evidence within the book, it really does take more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a believer in God!! You may borrow my copy if you'd like to read it.

[tucson]

Great piece -- pieces actually. Thanks

My pleasure

[Villages PL]

Great question but you know as well as I do that there is no “proof” of what existed before the Big Bang. There isn’t even any proof of a BB, it simply seems to be the most widely accepted “possible” explanation for the origin of the universe. Now let me throw a curve at you: the theory suggests that the expansion of an infinitely small and dense singularity is what “birthed” the universe as we know it today. What there is even less explanation for is how long that singularity might have existed before it expanded. And it is even more complicated than that because before the BB, the theory (additionally supported by Einstein’s theory of relativity) suggests that there was no time. With there being no time, and no thing outside of that infinitely small and dense singularity, in today’s language, there was nothing. BTW, I am not smart enough to understand Einstein’s theory of relativity, so I don’t want to imply that, but I do understand parts of what it and other theories might suggest and based on that information and using today’s language, as I understand our language, effectively there was nothing before the BB.

And then along comes quantum physics and some other possible explanations for what might have been “before” but none have been accepted as readily and as widely as the BB Theory. The bottom line is, and both you and I know it, this is all theory and NONE of it can be proven in a lab today. This and all other credible theories are run on mathematical models, all of which are above my pay grade, but I do accept the opinions of the experts.

I’m sure your comment about “. . . . to read a book” is because I suggested (actually challenged) BarryRX to read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist”. I suggested that he, (and I think you should too) read the book because the length of the proof he requested would not be allowed on this blog.

Oh, and by the way, what’s wrong with reading a book? It is a great book! And it might surprise but even more importantly, it might cause you to take another (or at least different) look at not only Christianity, but also the Big Bang. Take care and keep smiling.

I don't think I disagree with anything you have said about the BBtheory. It makes sense up to a point because scientists have observed the universe expanding. If you could imagine everything moving in reverse, eventually the universe would come together at one point.....a singularity. And that's as far as it goes.

Maybe it's correct and maybe not but I don't see a big need to know more than that. If they eventually find out more or come up with a new theory I'll be glad to hear about it. But I'm not under any illusion that we will ever have a final comprehensive answer as to how the universe began. A singularity was not the beginning, in my opinion.

I don't have anything against books, I just don't have the time to read everything that's been recommended. :wave:

[Patty55]

I consider myself an agnostic theist.

One of the many things I question is why topics such as this are even included in the "Non-villages discussion". Why is this not off with all the church stuff.

[tedquick]

I consider myself an agnostic theist.

One of the many things I question is why topics such as this are even included in the "Non-villages discussion". Why is this not off with all the church stuff.

If you mean that by being an agnostic theist that you believe in one god, but that he is simply not knowable, I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion. That is part of what makes this “former” greatest-country-ever such a wonderful place in which to live. Most of us on this website can (and do) share many views; some are similar, some are dissimilar, some are opposites while some others appear to be disparate. This is wildly interesting to me. While this certainly could be listed under religion, I originally thought of it as just a general discussion.

[Patty55]

If you mean that by being an agnostic theist that you believe in one god, but that he is simply not knowable, I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion. That is part of what makes this “former” greatest-country-ever such a wonderful place in which to live. Most of us on this website can (and do) share many views; some are similar, some are dissimilar, some are opposites while some others appear to be disparate. This is wildly interesting to me. While this certainly could be listed under religion, I originally thought of it as just a general discussion.

Yes, but the thing is some of us don't share our views. I rarely do because I try govern myself.

[blueash]

While you and I are a little off topic (but maybe we’re really not), you bring up an excellent point: I think religion is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity.
Or is it man’s insecurity that has frightened him into judging others who think/believe differently than he does? After all, if “you” think differently than I do then one of us has to be wrong and because of my precarious walk, I dare not let that error reside within me, therefore, the euphemistic “you” must be wrong.

I’m interested in your or any other reader’s thoughts.

As to the different sects of Christianity I humbly offer this bit of humor which was voted best Joke about Religion from Emo Philips
The best God joke ever - and it's mine! | Stage | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2005/sep/29/comedy.religion)

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

[tedquick]

Thanks, blueash, your joke made my point better than I did and I thank you for that. :):)

[tedquick]

Yes, but the thing is some of us don't share our views. I rarely do because I try govern myself.

I would love to hear your views. My world is much larger than my own little cloistered thoughts and close set of friends. That's the biggest reason I read and take part in some of the discussions on this website. I cherish the views of others. We all are who we are as a result of all of the influences in our lives, of which postings on this blog are a part.

[kittygilchrist]

Humans create God. I don't go to church anymore, and I don't pray often. I do believe in a higher power, I believe goodness is inside of everyone. I strongly believe in karma. I believe doing small acts of kindness everyday takes us one more step to our true purpose in life. The Golden Rule is a major belief of all religions and God is just a name.

I beieve in a power of deception that has convinced you there is no God. Satan is a master of deception. Consider that, not for my sake.

[graciegirl]

https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/p480x480/1497574_669603259727284_233639226_n.jpg?oh=38202fe 32fdabe472cbff2c8754fd9af&oe=54EB6080
Sue Fitzmaurice, Author (https://www.facebook.com/SueFitzmauriceAuthor/photos/a.694515857236024.1073741875.508972909123654/669603259727284/?type=1&fref=nf)

[tedquick]

Such wisdom!

[Challenger]

I care very little about what you need to be mentally and emotionally comfortable about God-Gods-"the Beginning"

I do care about how you act and the motives that drive your actions . Many of the worlds greatest philanthropists are atheist or at least agnostic; many are people of faith.

For me your "works" (actions) will show me who and what you really are .

James 2-14 Faith without works is Dead.

JM(very)HO

[Chi-Town]

If you mean that by being an agnostic theist that you believe in one god, but that he is simply not knowable, I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion. That is part of what makes this “former” greatest-country-ever such a wonderful place in which to live. Most of us on this website can (and do) share many views; some are similar, some are dissimilar, some are opposites while some others appear to be disparate. This is wildly interesting to me. While this certainly could be listed under religion, I originally thought of it as just a general discussion.
Just curious, if the USA is the "former" greatest-country what country took its place?

[tedquick]

Just curious, if the USA is the "former" greatest-country what country took its place?

Allow me to offer some fairly recent available facts (within the last couple of years):
America is 7th in literacy,
27th in math,
22nd in science,
49th in life expectancy,
169th in infant mortality,
3rd in household income,
4th in labor force and
4th in exports.

We are, however, number one in incarcerated adults per capita and number one in defense spending. So definitionally, do we sound like the greatest country in the world anymore?

[Rags123]

Allow me to offer some fairly recent available facts (within the last couple of years):
America is 7th in literacy,
27th in math,
22nd in science,
49th in life expectancy,
169th in infant mortality,
3rd in household income,
4th in labor force and
4th in exports.

We are, however, number one in incarcerated adults per capita and number one in defense spending. So definitionally, do we sound like the greatest country in the world anymore?

I was not aware that the catagories you list in total made up the greatest country in the world.

WOW...lots of folks struggling to get here, dying for, and praying for are going to be so disappointed.

PS....you must have really mixed feelings on a day like today...you know, Veterans day...people who thought they were fighting for something and look at those rankings....I assume you did not waste saying thank you to any vets !

[Gary7]

Allow me to offer some fairly recent available facts (within the last couple of years):
America is 7th in literacy,
27th in math,
22nd in science,
49th in life expectancy,
169th in infant mortality,
3rd in household income,
4th in labor force and
4th in exports.

We are, however, number one in incarcerated adults per capita and number one in defense spending. So definitionally, do we sound like the greatest country in the world anymore?

If these are truly the measurements of the greatest country in the world, then who is the greatest country in the world today?
And when was the USA #1 in each of these?

[tedquick]

Perhaps you misunderstood my point: I love America and would gladly die for her if my death would improve her future. I have no interest in living in any other country, but the direction that we are currently heading sickens me. There was a time that we would have been at the top of the above lists, not continuing to fall.

[Rags123]

Perhaps you misunderstood my point: I love America and would gladly die for her if my death would improve her future. I have no interest in living in any other country, but the direction that we are currently heading sickens me. There was a time that we would have been at the top of the above lists, not continuing to fall.

I am curious which part of your statement...

"That is part of what makes this “former” greatest-country-ever such a wonderful place in which to live."

One of the things that make this the CURRENT greatest country-ever, is that we, the people can change the direction of the country.

I am not a young man....I have been unhappy with the direction a few times and happy with the direction a few times. THAT does not diminish that I think this is the greatest country ever and never believe it is former. I also do not measure the greatness of a country by the measurements you supply. You did not list heart, soul or anything in the abstract.

Would I like us to be on top of each of those lists ? I do not know.....only if it did not detract and added to our country, and I have strong feelings on many issues about which you flirt with here, but this country accepts a lot of folks from other lands and they need not take an intelligence test to get in.


SORRY I interrupted your thread here. I have a big mouth and am very opinionated, however, to me religion is from within and almost impossible to have a forum discussion on. Politics is different for many obvious reasons and you jumped from religion to politics in this thread. I have no desire to post on religion....it is in me and mine....I share when necessary, but certainly have no franchise on my feelings or my God, thus it is all personal. Sorry again...will leave you be

[tedquick]

!!!

[tedquick]

I am curious which part of your statement...

"That is part of what makes this “former” greatest-country-ever such a wonderful place in which to live."

One of the things that make this the CURRENT greatest country-ever, is that we, the people can change the direction of the country.

I am not a young man....I have been unhappy with the direction a few times and happy with the direction a few times. THAT does not diminish that I think this is the greatest country ever and never believe it is former. I also do not measure the greatness of a country by the measurements you supply. You did not list heart, soul or anything in the abstract.

Would I like us to be on top of each of those lists ? I do not know.....only if it did not detract and added to our country, and I have strong feelings on many issues about which you flirt with here, but this country accepts a lot of folks from other lands and they need not take an intelligence test to get in.


SORRY I interrupted your thread here. I have a big mouth and am very opinionated, however, to me religion is from within and almost impossible to have a forum discussion on. Politics is different for many obvious reasons and you jumped from religion to politics in this thread. I have no desire to post on religion....it is in me and mine....I share when necessary, but certainly have no franchise on my feelings or my God, thus it is all personal. Sorry again...will leave you be


A good number of our recent posts have been off topic, but that frankly doesn't bother me. I will make a couple other comments and then we can return, but only if all others agree. But first, however, I was in a 7:30 A.M. meeting today with a room full of veterans and I even shared some tears with a couple of them. This afternoon I was in another meeting with two of the same. They know precisely how I feel about them and what they and millions of others have done, for without their sacrifices you and I wouldn't be having this discussion. Spending time with the veterans of which I was honored to share time with today simply added to the displeasure at our nation’s present direction.

As I said in an earlier post, I would not live in any other country but just because I love her to death doesn't mean that I’m not able to see that she has faults and some potentially fatal weaknesses. Three other statistics are: America is the 88th safest country, the 17th “best” country in which to live and the 8th wealthiest in the world. Safety, freedom & happiness and wealth are reasonable tests when comparing the good, better and best.

I will repeat, I love America (and to me personally, she *is* the “greatest” country in the world), but when I set aside my personal prejudices and consider other factors like those noted above -- maybe not so much!!

On this Veteran’s Day I close: God Bless all who have served and are presently serving our country and God Bless America.

[Barefoot]

I would much rather see people take action with some group or organization that is involved in helping others in some way, than those who regularly go to church and other than that, do nothing.


I do believe in a higher power, I believe goodness is inside of everyone. I strongly believe in karma. I believe doing small acts of kindness everyday takes us one more step to our true purpose in life. The Golden Rule is a major belief of all religions and God is just a name.

:agree: I believe there is no one answer. Saying "It's my way or the highway" with regard to religious beliefs is denigrating to those who aren't a member of an organized religion, yet are inherently good people, kind to others and who live by the Golden Rule.

[DougB]

Today's Short Reading from the Bible.....from Genesis

"And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the earth."
Then He made the earth round....

[Villages PL]

Today's Short Reading from the Bible.....from Genesis

"And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the earth."
Then He made the earth round....

:1rotfl:............:thumbup:

[graciegirl]

I am curious which part of your statement...

"That is part of what makes this “former” greatest-country-ever such a wonderful place in which to live."

One of the things that make this the CURRENT greatest country-ever, is that we, the people can change the direction of the country.

I am not a young man....I have been unhappy with the direction a few times and happy with the direction a few times. THAT does not diminish that I think this is the greatest country ever and never believe it is former. I also do not measure the greatness of a country by the measurements you supply. You did not list heart, soul or anything in the abstract.

Would I like us to be on top of each of those lists ? I do not know.....only if it did not detract and added to our country, and I have strong feelings on many issues about which you flirt with here, but this country accepts a lot of folks from other lands and they need not take an intelligence test to get in.


SORRY I interrupted your thread here. I have a big mouth and am very opinionated, however, to me religion is from within and almost impossible to have a forum discussion on. Politics is different for many obvious reasons and you jumped from religion to politics in this thread. I have no desire to post on religion....it is in me and mine....I share when necessary, but certainly have no franchise on my feelings or my God, thus it is all personal. Sorry again...will leave you be

Well said.

[Shimpy]

Allow me to offer some fairly recent available facts (within the last couple of years):
America is 7th in literacy,
27th in math,
22nd in science,
49th in life expectancy,
169th in infant mortality,
3rd in household income,
4th in labor force and
4th in exports.

We are, however, number one in incarcerated adults per capita and number one in defense spending. So definitionally, do we sound like the greatest country in the world anymore?


Number one in defense spending sounds good to me.

[KeepingItReal]

World's most big-hearted nation: the United States (http://www.cnbc.com/id/101240935#).



The United States is the world's most generous nation, according to a global index of giving, as a higher proportion of Americans helped a stranger than any other country in the world.

The 2013 World Giving Index – published annually by international nonprofit organization Charities Aid Foundation – looks at three measures: monetary giving, volunteering and helping of strangers in a typical month. The survey, published on Tuesday, was carried out in 2012 across 135 countries.

[Scott8147]

Back on Sept 23rd, on the 4th page of the blog piece “Big Bang and the Bible” onslowe recommended the book “I don’t have enough faith to be an Atheist” by Norman Geisler. I just completed the book, thus my question and thank you, onslowe.

For me The Big Bang Theory adequately explains how God created the universe. Perhaps I should say that the BBTheory adequately explains to me the methodology that God utilized for His creation. If you are an atheist, and there is no God, then how can you explain the origin of the universe?

God is a man-made creation. There are so many things man did not and still does not understand that we created God because we felt that surely there was something greater than us who understood everything and was in charge. Since we will never understand everything, there will always be room for some people to say that's proof of God.
Yes, apparently there was nothing before the Big Bang --- nothing -- and that includes God. How did it start? How about a quantum fluctuation in the vacuum? We know that particles pop into and out of existence all the time. In time we understand even more and in time, hopefully the concept of God will pop out of existence as well.

[tucson]

To say that the universe just happened takes more faith than to believe that God is behind it. God truly did create a wonderful universe , He chose to b/c he loves mankind. He is an infinite being and always was, no one created God.

[QueenBee1]

Humans create God. I don't go to church anymore, and I don't pray often. I do believe in a higher power, I believe goodness is inside of everyone. I strongly believe in karma. I believe doing small acts of kindness everyday takes us one more step to our true purpose in life. The Golden Rule is a major belief of all religions and God is just a name.

Well Said! I to believe this, and think very similar.

[rubicon]

"To be an atheist requires an infinitely greater measure of faith than to receive all the great truths which atheism would deny." John Addison

[Scott8147]

What I have gathered from this thread is that whether it is a question of God or science both are based on faith as both gather their information from past history. Generally speaking the commonality among religious people is they are mostly warm and most welcoming whereas atheist are stern almost angry all the time. a primary example of what I speak is Bill Maher or the atheist organization from Wisconsin Freedom From Religion. This was noticed in the atheist community and now according to a recent WSJ article they have changed their approach to be more welcoming.

Christian believe in creation. Atheist believe in evolution some concur that a combination of intelligent design is possible. some believe that the reason scientist can't find the missing link to man is because aliens came with artificial insemmination procedures to speed up evolution. They point to those fiery chariot in the sky as space vehicles.

The problem with this exercise is that there are simply too many unknown unknowns (Donald Rumfseld)

So in my view one has to be content with their belief because it doesn't appear as of this date that anyone has an answer to this riddle

I opine I do not argue and I respect everyone's point of view


Rubicon, I'm always skeptical of generalizations and yours is no exception. I know many atheists as well as religious people and I think your generalization that atheists are angry all the time and religious people are warm and welcoming is definitely misguided. In fact, if I were to generalize, I would say that religious people tend to be much more judgmental and angry whereas atheists are more tolerant and accepting. But again, as with all generalizations, there are many on both sides which is why I take exception with yours.
Concerning your comment that some atheists believe evolution and a combination of intelligent design, that cannot be true. By definition, atheists don't believe in God or other supernatural beings and therefore intelligent design is out of the question. After all, it's just religion dressed up as bad science. Lastly, scientists have found missing links, but they have not found them all. That does not disprove the theory. We have not proved the theory of gravity either, but I doubt you are too concerned about falling off the earth.
I too respect your point of view - I just don't agree with it.

[bettymg1866]

We all have our own religions and i would hope that by the time we reach 55 - 85 we know what that is.... there is no reason to bring it to the TOTV..... i cant stand it when someone tries to force another religion on me...

[KeepingItReal]

We cannot see air but we all know it exists, we cannot see love and caring but we all know that it exists, we cannot see faith but we know it exists, I for one do not have to see scientific proof of God to know he exists. The created are not superior to the creator that they are able to question or demand proof of anything.

[onslowe]

We all have our own religions and i would hope that by the time we reach 55 - 85 we know what that is.... there is no reason to bring it to the TOTV..... i cant stand it when someone tries to force another religion on me...

Those of us who believe Jesus Christ to be God have in mind his words that one does not hide one's light under a basket. My religion is part of me, and I will bring it where I want. No, I don't preach in restaurants or swimming pools or movie houses, but my faith is with me and it's not compartmentalized or in 'sleep mode' til Sunday a.m.

TOTV is a place where ideas and opinions are set forth. I've yet to see any one of us, of any persuasion, believer or not, 'force' ideas down peoples' throats. What physical power do we have? I have the right, as do you and all others, to state my beliefs. I am not ashamed of God nor of being an unworthy but believing child of God.

Again, TOTV is like a fridge, open, look around, take what you want, leave the rest and close the door. :)

[tucson]

Those of us who believe Jesus Christ to be God have in mind his words that one does not hide one's light under a basket. My religion is part of me, and I will bring it where I want. No, I don't preach in restaurants or swimming pools or movie houses, but my faith is with me and it's not compartmentalized or in 'sleep mode' til Sunday a.m.

TOTV is a place where ideas and opinions are set forth. I've yet to see any one of us, of any persuasion, believer or not, 'force' ideas down peoples' throats. What physical power do we have? I have the right, as do you and all others, to state my beliefs. I am not ashamed of God nor of being an unworthy but believing child of God.

Again, TOTV is like a fridge, open, look around, take what you want, leave the rest and close the door. :)

I also am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ (having said this, it's not a "religion" but a personal relationship with God as I live my life everyday) There are countless Born Again Christians who are former Catholics, Jews, Methodists,Episcopalians, Lutherans,Atheists, Muslims,Hindu's,etc.etc. God gives every man and woman on earth free choice to either believe in Him or not to. We are called to be a "light in a dark world" as are all followers of Jesus. Especially in these last days, people need to hear the truth, which has been foretold in the Bible. May the Lord shower the world with His unconditional love and peace!! :-) My motives are to see people set free from living in unbelief and unhappiness and come into His marvelous light. :-)

[Sophie11]

Because the darkness is coming where no man can work.

John3:16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

No other religion on earth makes this claim.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I want to start out by saying that I believe in God. It's not necessary to get into the specifics of my beliefs here as it has nothing to do with this discussion. I don't believe that man created God. I believe that it was the other way around and that God has made us aware of his existence in many ways.

But having said that, to answer the question in the OP is pretty simple. Could all of this happened without God? Without some sort of creator?

Why not? Consider the possibility that matter has always existed. No one created it, it simply always was. At some point in time two pieces of matter collided and led to the big bang. I don't believe that tis is the way that it happened, but why is that not possible?

Just because we believe in something does not mean that we need to deny the logic of something else. Atheists run around trying to convince others that God does not exist. Many believers are trying convince non-believers that God does exist. There is no need to prove the other wrong by saying that it is simply impossible. Anything is possible if you consider that the laws of physics were created by man based on what we knew at the time. The laws of science exist based on what we know now. Who knows what is truly possible?

Science says that it is impossible for two pieces of matter to exist in the same place at the same time. That is pretty much a law. I say that is true based on what we now know. Maybe we don't know everything.

As to belief in God or non-belief in God, I say make your own choice and leave everyone else alone.

And yes, God did instruct believers to share the knowledge and I believe in that as well. But we shouldn't be trying to force things down each other's throats.

[tucson]

The Bible teaches us that God created the world, not science. Everyone has a free choice to believe what they want to. I know the Word from God is true because the Holy Spirit can not lie. Who's "forcing" things down ppl's throat? We all have free
rights to express ourselves, Amen? :-)

[Barefoot]

TOTV is a place where ideas and opinions are set forth. I've yet to see any one of us, of any persuasion, believer or not, 'force' ideas down peoples' throats.......... Again, TOTV is like a fridge, open, look around, take what you want, leave the rest and close the door. :)

I love the fridge analogy.

[TheVillageChicken]

The Bible as we know it was translated by a bunch of dudes who were trying to make sure the king would be pleased with their work during a time when heretics were burned at the stake. Am I wrong?

[Villages PL]

TOTV is a place where ideas and opinions are set forth. I've yet to see any one of us, of any persuasion, believer or not, 'force' ideas down peoples' throats.......... Again, TOTV is like a fridge, open, look around, take what you want, leave the rest and close the door. :)

I love the fridge analogy.

I say we keep the fridge door open to more threads on religion.

[Gramps666]

Read a lot of posts here. So I have some questions or observations.
Many Christians have the mistaken belief that if we remove God from public areas (schools, courts. etc) our society will disintegrate. For example, after 9/11 Jerry Falwell blamed the attacks on America's "throwing God out to the public square." And he added "when a nation deserts God and expels God from the culture...the result is not good."
Do you people really believe God would do that? Read on.
If this hypothesis is correct then one might predict (scientific method here) those countries with the highest proportion of atheists and agnostics to be the countries with the most negative factors such as disease, poverty, crime, etc.
But if one doesn't just blindly accept these statements and does some research he will find that just the opposite is true. Countries with a high proportion of non-believers (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan) have rather high standards of living.
Like to live in countries where worship of God is in abundance? Try Haiti, Ghana, Burundi, Dominican Republic or Somalia for starters.
Just trying to give one example of how "believers" will believe just about anything a religious leader spews from the pulpit. And that's why we are going downhill.

[Gramps666]

Because the darkness is coming where no man can work.

John3:16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

No other religion on earth makes this claim.

Really want to continue with biblical quotes?
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalms 137:9.
"But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 2:12
Think the morality of the world comes out of the Bible? I've got many more quotes they don't talk about in Bible study. Believe me, I've been there.

[tedquick]

We Christians have some responsibility for us having a bad name. Some of us don’t communicate our beliefs very well. Some of us are judgmental, or self-righteous, or hypocritical. Some of us are close-minded, or have little patience for non-believers and some are adulterers. Most of us try to do what’s right, but we are ALL sinners. Every one of us Christians is a fallible human being, and we all fall short. If only non-sinners were allowed in church all of our church buildings would be empty every Sunday. There wouldn’t be a choir, a choir director, a custodian, an associate pastor and there wouldn’t even be a pastor there. Every building on every Sunday would be an empty, vacant, hollow building.

We Christians know that we’ll be attacked and ridiculed. We always have been and we always will be. I don’t know what good it does for anybody to attack us but I do know that it’s been that way for over 2000 years and it’ll be that way as long as there are people living on this earth. We will continue to be targeted. So be it. And although we’re attacked, in no way shape or form does that make us special. It simply is what it is.

Part of our responsibility as a Christian is to introduce Christ to non-believers. I trust that no one at any time can say that I’m trying to force anybody to believe anything, but I do believe in professing my own faith. God has never forced me or anybody else to believe in Him. But He is there for the believing. I close with a (terribly paraphrased) saying that is very much like His offering to us; “let it go, if it comes back it’s yours, if it doesn’t it was never yours in the first place”. I.E. Forced belief is false belief.

[tomwed]

The Bible as we know it was translated by a bunch of dudes who were trying to make sure the king would be pleased with their work during a time when heretics were burned at the stake. Am I wrong?

I don't know but I would like to know where you got that information. And you didn't give me enough information to search. What king are you talking about? And what language was the original bible and what was the translated bible language?

[Sophie11]

Read a lot of posts here. So I have some questions or observations.
Many Christians have the mistaken belief that if we remove God from public areas (schools, courts. etc) our society will disintegrate. For example, after 9/11 Jerry Falwell blamed the attacks on America's "throwing God out to the public square." And he added "when a nation deserts God and expels God from the culture...the result is not good."
Do you people really believe God would do that? Read on.
If this hypothesis is correct then one might predict (scientific method here) those countries with the highest proportion of atheists and agnostics to be the countries with the most negative factors such as disease, poverty, crime, etc.
But if one doesn't just blindly accept these statements and does some research he will find that just the opposite is true. Countries with a high proportion of non-believers (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan) have rather high standards of living.
Like to live in countries where worship of God is in abundance? Try Haiti, Ghana, Burundi, Dominican Republic or Somalia for starters.
Just trying to give one example of how "believers" will believe just about anything a religious leader spews from the pulpit. And that's why we are going downhill.

Sweden and Norway are mostly Christian people - The flag of Sweden is blue with a yellow cross. I hosted children from both countries and they were Christian.

[tucson]

We Christians have some responsibility for us having a bad name. Some of us don’t communicate our beliefs very well. Some of us are judgmental, or self-righteous, or hypocritical. Some of us are close-minded, or have little patience for non-believers and some are adulterers. Most of us try to do what’s right, but we are ALL sinners. Every one of us Christians is a fallible human being, and we all fall short. If only non-sinners were allowed in church all of our church buildings would be empty every Sunday. There wouldn’t be a choir, a choir director, a custodian, an associate pastor and there wouldn’t even be a pastor there. Every building on every Sunday would be an empty, vacant, hollow building.

We Christians know that we’ll be attacked and ridiculed. We always have been and we always will be. I don’t know what good it does for anybody to attack us but I do know that it’s been that way for over 2000 years and it’ll be that way as long as there are people living on this earth. We will continue to be targeted. So be it. And although we’re attacked, in no way shape or form does that make us special. It simply is what it is.

Part of our responsibility as a Christian is to introduce Christ to non-believers. I trust that no one at any time can say that I’m trying to force anybody to believe anything, but I do believe in professing my own faith. God has never forced me or anybody else to believe in Him. But He is there for the believing. I close with a (terribly paraphrased) saying that is very much like His offering to us; “let it go, if it comes back it’s yours, if it doesn’t it was never yours in the first place”. I.E. Forced belief is false belief.

:smiley: Thank you for your honesty. Love what you said!

[Gramps666]

Sweden and Norway are mostly Christian people - The flag of Sweden is blue with a yellow cross. I hosted children from both countries and they were Christian.

You may consider them Christian if you want. My point was they have a high percentage of non-believers. According to a survey by Zuckerman, Sweden has from 46% to 85% non-believers and Norway has from 31% to 72% non-believers. That puts both of them in the top 5 of countries with the highest % of non-believers.
The point trying to be made is that non-believers are NOT necessarily the cause of bad things happening in a country.
I'm trying to enlighten you with the TRUTH. Not the bologna some people are telling you.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The Bible teaches us that God created the world, not science. Everyone has a free choice to believe what they want to. I know the Word from God is true because the Holy Spirit can not lie. Who's "forcing" things down ppl's throat? We all have free
rights to express ourselves, Amen? :-)

Is it not possible that God created the world through science? The Bible also says that God works through men. Cannot God also work through science? The Bible also says that all things are possible through God. I take that to mean that many of these ideas that seem to be conflicting may all be true.

My former pastor told me that in many cases God, through the Bible, explained things in a way that man could understand at the time it was written. Maybe man can understand a bit more several thousand years later, but we are not close to being able to understand God.

[TheVillageChicken]

I don't know but I would like to know where you got that information. And you didn't give me enough information to search. What king are you talking about? And what language was the original bible and what was the translated bible language?

I will address your questions even though I find it hard to believe you don't already know the answers.

The king was King James of England, and he instructed the translators to come up with a bible that conformed to the beliefs of The Church of England vs those of the Catholic Church. The New Testament, which is the basis for Christianity, was written in Greek. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The Bible was translated into the English language of the day and peppered with an abundance of ye, thee, thou, and thine.

[Sophie11]

You may consider them Christian if you want. My point was they have a high percentage of non-believers. According to a survey by Zuckerman, Sweden has from 46% to 85% non-believers and Norway has from 31% to 72% non-believers. That puts both of them in the top 5 of countries with the highest % of non-believers.
The point trying to be made is that non-believers are NOT necessarily the cause of bad things happening in a country.
I'm trying to enlighten you with the TRUTH. Not the bologna some people are telling you.

Well the real truth is Luke 18:8 where Jesus says "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh , shall he find faith on the earth?

If I were a muslim would you be able to put things on here about their Koran?

[rubicon]

Rubicon, I'm always skeptical of generalizations and yours is no exception. I know many atheists as well as religious people and I think your generalization that atheists are angry all the time and religious people are warm and welcoming is definitely misguided. In fact, if I were to generalize, I would say that religious people tend to be much more judgmental and angry whereas atheists are more tolerant and accepting. But again, as with all generalizations, there are many on both sides which is why I take exception with yours.
Concerning your comment that some atheists believe evolution and a combination of intelligent design, that cannot be true. By definition, atheists don't believe in God or other supernatural beings and therefore intelligent design is out of the question. After all, it's just religion dressed up as bad science. Lastly, scientists have found missing links, but they have not found them all. That does not disprove the theory. We have not proved the theory of gravity either, but I doubt you are too concerned about falling off the earth.
I too respect your point of view - I just don't agree with it.

Hi Scott, my intent was not to offend and I do agree that while not intended my statement did come across as too general . My apology

What I had in mind were the Bill Maher's, Wisconsin's Freedom From Religion Organization, Maggie O'Hair, etc. and their relentless attacks on eliminating religion in this country. We could add the pugilistic authors Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens who have moved from outright attacks to a new kinder gentler atheism since they have learned from Christians that consolation and connection utilizing testimonials sells .

I should have dded that I am annoyed with the Jimmy Swaggerts 'and
Baker's and quite frankly annoyed with the liberal faction in the Catholic Church. I should have included the likable George Will who acknowledged that he is an avowed atheists.

[Topspinmo]

This post makes about much sence as "What came first the chicken or the egg"? We can't answer that simple question? Either you believe or you don't.

[tucson]

Blessed are you, when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man, Jesus sake.
Luke 6:22

[tedquick]

This post makes about much sence as "What came first the chicken or the egg"? We can't answer that simple question? Either you believe or you don't.

I have known a number of people who "did not believe" but now they do. I am one, myself who has "returned to Christ" after having wondered aimlessly for a few decades. I believe that those who are angered by this kind of a thread are angered because they know, at some level (albeit perhaps not at a conscious one), that there is strong evidence and justification for believing.

I offer that because I am one of those who got angry every time a friend or family member tried to "shove Christ down my throat". They weren't shoving anything, but it felt that way. I now believe that was God nudging me to pay attention.

[CFrance]

The Bible as we know it was translated by a bunch of dudes who were trying to make sure the king would be pleased with their work during a time when heretics were burned at the stake. Am I wrong?

I don't know but I would like to know where you got that information. And you didn't give me enough information to search. What king are you talking about? And what language was the original bible and what was the translated bible language?
If you would like to learn more about the translation of the bible, there is a fascinating book about it, God's Secretaries, that came out a few years ago. Here is Amazon's synopsis:

"A network of complex currents flowed across Jacobean England. This was the England of Shakespeare, Jonson, and Bacon; the era of the Gunpowder Plot and the worst outbreak of the plague. Jacobean England was both more godly and less godly than the country had ever been, and the entire culture was drawn taut between these polarities. This was the world that created the King James Bible. It is the greatest work of English prose ever written, and it is no coincidence that the translation was made at the moment "Englishness," specifically the English language itself, had come into its first passionate maturity. The English of Jacobean England has a more encompassing idea of its own scope than any form of the language before or since. It drips with potency and sensitivity. The age, with all its conflicts, explains the book."

Even if you're not particularly interested in religion, this is a good read, as well as an informative one.

[Rags123]

I have known a number of people who "did not believe" but now they do. I am one, myself who has "returned to Christ" after having wondered aimlessly for a few decades. I believe that those who are angered by this kind of a thread are angered because they know, at some level (albeit perhaps not at a conscious one), that there is strong evidence and justification for believing.

I offer that because I am one of those who got angry every time a friend or family member tried to "shove Christ down my throat". They weren't shoving anything, but it felt that way. I now believe that was God nudging me to pay attention.

Just to be clear, as I may be one of which you have titled !!!

I am religious, practice my faith, and belong to a formal church, but it is my business.

I have no problem with you discussing religion, but have trouble with two things.....those that mock others belief system and there have been a few sarcastic posts aimed at someones belief...THAT is wrong in my book.

Secondly, and this must be worded carefully. I find some hypocrisy in being able to discuss this on this forum while other more relevant subjects you may not.

[KeepingItReal]

I have known a number of people who "did not believe" but now they do. I am one, myself who has "returned to Christ" after having wondered aimlessly for a few decades. I believe that those who are angered by this kind of a thread are angered because they know, at some level (albeit perhaps not at a conscious one), that there is strong evidence and justification for believing.

I offer that because I am one of those who got angry every time a friend or family member tried to "shove Christ down my throat". They weren't shoving anything, but it felt that way. I now believe that was God nudging me to pay attention.

:BigApplause:

Can't beat a real testimony.....from a real person..

[tomwed]

Even if you're not particularly interested in religion, this is a good read, as well as an informative one.

I find it startling what I have forgotten. Dancing Chicken or whatever his name is gave me enough information to explore on my own and I thank him. I spent a couple of hours this morning learning about the various versions of the Bible and about King James and his team.

[tedquick]

Just to be clear, as I may be one of which you have titled !!!

I am religious, practice my faith, and belong to a formal church, but it is my business.

I have no problem with you discussing religion, but have trouble with two things.....those that mock others belief system and there have been a few sarcastic posts aimed at someones belief...THAT is wrong in my book.

Secondly, and this must be worded carefully. I find some hypocrisy in being able to discuss this on this forum while other more relevant subjects you may not.

I trust that none of what I have ever said could be construed as mocking of others' beliefs. If so, then my communication/s have been poorly constructed.

The two forbidden topics in most public forums are religion and politics. Your hypocrisy comment must therefore be referencing the latter?

[TheVillageChicken]

I find it startling what I have forgotten. Dancing Chicken or whatever his name is gave me enough information to explore on my own and I thank him. I spent a couple of hours this morning learning about the various versions of the Bible and about King James and his team.

Dancing Chicken was my slave name. I am now called The Village Chicken.
Tomwed, while doing your research, examine the difference between the Catholic and Prostestant Bibles...KJV leaves out quite a few books.

[Rags123]

I trust that none of what I have ever said could be construed as mocking of others' beliefs. If so, then my communication/s have been poorly constructed.

The two forbidden topics in most public forums are religion and politics. Your hypocrisy comment must therefore be referencing the latter?

First, I was not speaking of your posts at all or I would have said so and quoted them.

Secondly, it appears from a guy who has had many posts taken down for being political, that you are incorrect in your identification of the two forbidden topic. Your thread is title IF NOT GOD, THEN HOW and has had extensive discussion on religion, thus it appears to me that religion is fine to be discussed....

Now, if you discuss politics, or even any current event, you run more risks it appears than religion. And please take no offense, but my heart is taken on the religion subject....my FUTURE life is taken care of....it is the present that is not comfy for folks to discuss for some reason.

[Kahuna32162]

Since this thread has now gone on for over 12 pages, are we safe to say that residents of the Villages have differing opinions. I would also suggest that freedom of religion allows for differing opinions without condemnation or agreement. There may not be one single answer to the question, and who are those to question others that may disagree with them. Beliefs are, and should be, private.

[tedquick]

First, I was not speaking of your posts at all or I would have said so and quoted them.

Secondly, it appears from a guy who has had many posts taken down for being political, that you are incorrect in your identification of the two forbidden topic. Your thread is title IF NOT GOD, THEN HOW and has had extensive discussion on religion, thus it appears to me that religion is fine to be discussed....

Now, if you discuss politics, or even any current event, you run more risks it appears than religion. And please take no offense, but my heart is taken on the religion subject....my FUTURE life is taken care of....it is the present that is not comfy for folks to discuss for some reason.

I'm with you. While the two forbidden topics typically are religion and politics, religion has been discussed at great length on this and multiple other threads. I was guessing you were referencing the absence of political threads herein. For some reason (guessing again) politics creates even stranger bedfellows than religion.

As you say, in one we're taking about the eternal quality of life and in the other, the quality of life in the here and now. Apparently people are more passionate, emotional and more irrational about the here and now, which in one respect "seems" to make sense whether or not it should. I would love to see an active discussion on politics.

[tedquick]

Since this thread has now gone on for over 12 pages, are we safe to say that residents of the Villages have differing opinions. I would also suggest that freedom of religion allows for differing opinions without condemnation or agreement. There may not be one single answer to the question, and who are those to question others that may disagree with them. Beliefs are, and should be, private.

Anyone who is willing to share their beliefs should be free to do so and anyone who prefers to keep theirs private should be allowed to do that.

[Rags123]

I'm with you. While the two forbidden topics typically are religion and politics, religion has been discussed at great length on this and multiple other threads. I was guessing you were referencing the absence of political threads herein. For some reason (guessing again) politics creates even stranger bedfellows than religion.

As you say, in one we're taking about the eternal quality of life and in the other, the quality of life in the here and now. Apparently people are more passionate, emotional and more irrational about the here and now, which in one respect "seems" to make sense whether or not it should. I would love to see an active discussion on politics.


I must always be careful....my posts have a way of not spending much time in the daylight, but I also wonder about what you say.

Religion, to me, gives you peace.....at least mine does. I need no conversation about it....my heart and soul are at peace. I struggle with the world today and that I live in today, and that, to me, seems where we need all the dialogue possible.....over talk actually.

[tucson]

Anyone who is willing to share their beliefs should be free to do so and anyone who prefers to keep theirs private should be allowed to do that.

There are a lot of people who are deeply & truly seeking God, but will never step foot in a church. We as believers have the responsibility to share the reality of God, heaven, hell and how God loves them so much that He will be there for them through devastating times in their lives, that is my motivation for saying what I do here.

[CFrance]

I believe the people who are deeply & truly seeking God but will never step foot in a church need to be left to journey alone until they are ready to come forward of their own volition. Your "responsibility" may do more harm than good to these quiet people. You may, in fact, be a major the reason they will not enter a church.

[tucson]

I believe the people who are deeply & truly seeking God but will never step foot in a church need to be left to journey alone until they are ready to come forward of their own volition. Your "responsibility" may do more harm than good to these quiet people. You may, in fact, be a major the reason they will not enter a church.

And He said to them, "Go into the whole world and preach the gospel to the whole world and every creature" Mark 16:15 :-)

[onslowe]

With all due respect, I have to disagree with the idea of keeping one's religious beliefs to oneself - at least on TOTV. I really cannot perceive what 'harm' could be done. If guilt, then I submit the guilt pre-existed TOTV statements. If anger, well, many things in this world of ours and its media could anger anyone of us, and that shouldn't be a reason to withhold one's belief statements - since no one else seems to do so these days. It is 'open season' on religious believers (especially Christians and Jews) in all sorts of instances.

If there is a danger of some psychological harm in this discourse, then that might be something needs professional care. Honestly.

I really cannot think of the word 'harm' having any validity or weight in suppressing statements of religious belief or atheistic or agnostic belief here on TOTV.

Sorry to be repetitious, but this forum is a place of ideas. If I don't care to go deeper into any particular thread or thread heading, then I don't. Everybody has that same ability and right!

[tedquick]

I believe the people who are deeply & truly seeking God but will never step foot in a church need to be left to journey alone until they are ready to come forward of their own volition. Your "responsibility" may do more harm than good to these quiet people. You may, in fact, be a major the reason they will not enter a church.

C, you bring up an interesting point, however I tend to come at it from a slightly different perspective: while I don’t consider myself a proselyte, I do think it proper, in fact, as Tucson points out in a slightly earlier post above, it is our responsibility to “share the gospel of Jesus Christ” (my former church’s motto). We do that in a variety of ways: the manner in which we live our everyday lives, through writings such as these and whenever we are out among other people. Actually we TRY to do what is right in all circumstances, but so often we are miserable failures. Please understand something: we are all sinners and I do not know of one other who professes otherwise. I am certainly nobody special. I am just a fallible human being like everyone else trying to find my way in this earthly life.

A number of years ago there was a gentleman in our health club who was actively preaching for the need for all to accept Christ. He actually confronted people, most of whom were very uncomfortable with his approach. Talk about turning people off! In any case I only ever saw him do that one time. He must have figured out very quickly that his approach was unlikely to work.

Somewhere there must be a balance between ignoring all others and being confrontational (ignoring in this discussion the likes of the Muslim terrorists).

BTW. Rags, Tucson and onslowe each just made some excellent points.

[Joaniesmom]

This just proved that my grandmother was right. Never discuss religion or politics. You just upset yourself and others and do not change anyone's mind.

[tucson]

C, you bring up an interesting point, however I tend to come at it from a slightly different perspective: while I don’t consider myself a proselyte, I do think it proper, in fact, as Tucson points out in a slightly earlier post above, it is our responsibility to “share the gospel of Jesus Christ” (my former church’s motto). We do that in a variety of ways: the manner in which we live our everyday lives, through writings such as these and whenever we are out among other people. Actually we TRY to do what is right in all circumstances, but so often we are miserable failures. Please understand something: we are all sinners and I do not know of one other who professes otherwise. I am certainly nobody special. I am just a fallible human being like everyone else trying to find my way in this earthly life.

A number of years ago there was a gentleman in our health club who was actively preaching for the need for all to accept Christ. He actually confronted people, most of whom were very uncomfortable with his approach. Talk about turning people off! In any case I only ever saw him do that one time. He must have figured out very quickly that his approach was unlikely to work.

Somewhere there must be a balance between ignoring all others and being confrontational (ignoring in this discussion the likes of the Muslim terrorists).

BTW. Rags, Tucson and onslowe each just made some excellent points.

When I used to volunteer at a Christian T.V Station in it's telephone answering ministry for CBN in the 1980's and one night I answered a call from a man who was not a Christian at the time was ready to commit suicide in his motel room.I was given this opportunity by the Lord to talk to him and pray for him, this incidence changed me forever and I will always share Jesus with anyone and everywhere. God Bless :-) (btw) He ultimately got in touch with my pastor, gave his life to Christ and the church helped him with get him work and other things he needed, Praise & Glory to God!

[dbussone]

When I used to volunteer at a Christian T.V Station in it's telephone answering ministry for CBN in the 1980's and one night I answered a call from a man who was not a Christian at the time was ready to commit suicide in his motel room.I was given this opportunity by the Lord to talk to him and pray for him, this incidence changed me forever and I will always share Jesus with anyone and everywhere. God Bless :-) (btw) He ultimately got in touch with my pastor, gave his life to Christ and the church helped him with get him work and other things he needed, Praise & Glory to God!

What a wonderful story...a true blessing, especially this time of year. God blessed you with the opportunity and the caller with an open heart.

[tedquick]

When I used to volunteer at a Christian T.V Station in it's telephone answering ministry for CBN in the 1980's and one night I answered a call from a man who was not a Christian at the time was ready to commit suicide in his motel room.I was given this opportunity by the Lord to talk to him and pray for him, this incidence changed me forever and I will always share Jesus with anyone and everywhere. God Bless :-) (btw) He ultimately got in touch with my pastor, gave his life to Christ and the church helped him with get him work and other things he needed, Praise & Glory to God!

What an extraordinary example of God working through we mortal men. You were blessed to be God's messenger. Whatever seeds you planted in that call sprouted and saved a man's life. I wonder how many more have been saved since then because of that one "new Christian". We never know what impact there might be from one seemingly simple conversation, posting or action. Nicely done, my friend, nicely done.