Let's put an end to the doctor shortage:

[Villages PL]

Perhaps 8 years of college are too many. Let's at least shorten it to about 6.

Too many non-essential courses are required.

A doctor should not be expected to be all things to all people. So why is a doctor required to take X number of years of a foreign language?

How about courses like art appreciation and music appreciation etc. When was the last time you discussed art or music with your doctor?

Algebra? Trigonometry?

How does a doctor use algebra when diagnosing a patient? If diagnosis = y and treatment = x, outcome = Get real!!!

We end up paying for all the time and money they spend getting their education.

[KARENNN]

When kids in school said "Why to I have to take this class, I will never use anything I learn here" I remember a teacher saying "learning different things awakens different parts of your brain. Not everything you learn is practical, but it will make your brain function better"

[DruannB]

What about their life outside the office? Shouldn't they be well-rounded? Some of those courses actually teach critical thinking skills. That's kind of important for a doctor.

[Bonnevie]

if you really want to end the doctor shortage, bring down the cost of becoming a doctor. many people won't even consider it anymore because the time, effort, and cost is not worth the rewards anymore. Reimbursements to doctors are cut all the time...a lot of the doctors I know say they wouldn't do it again.

[Villages PL]

When kids in school said "Why to I have to take this class, I will never use anything I learn here" I remember a teacher saying "learning different things awakens different parts of your brain. Not everything you learn is practical, but it will make your brain function better"

For kids, I agree. There's no need to change grammar school or high school, as far as I know. (But there's always room for improvement.)

However, I don't think anyone needs 8 years of college for the purpose of waking up their brain.

There have been some very creative and productive people in the world who never even went to college.

[Villages PL]

What about their life outside the office? Shouldn't they be well-rounded? Some of those courses actually teach critical thinking skills. That's kind of important for a doctor.

Yes, but they should just hurry-up and get those critical thinking skills in 6 years instead of 8.

[BarryRX]

I just looked at the syllabus for The Univ. of Florida Medical School for years 1 through 4. They do not take any of the courses you've mentioned while they are in medical school. Are you saying that they shouldn't have to take these courses in High School? If the standard dose of a drug for an adult male is 4mg/kg, then how much drug should be prescribed to a 200 pound man who has reduced kidney function? Go ahead and figure that out without using basic math skills. And, why would you deny a doctor the skills needed to not only enjoy art or music, but to understand why. I don't use my art appreciation course when I practice pharmacy, but I am grateful that I took it. Many times when people are in High School or taking undergraduate courses in College, they are not sure if they want to become doctors. That' what that period is for, to figure out who you are and what you want to do.

[Villages PL]

if you really want to end the doctor shortage, bring down the cost of becoming a doctor. many people won't even consider it anymore because the time, effort, and cost is not worth the rewards anymore. Reimbursements to doctors are cut all the time...a lot of the doctors I know say they wouldn't do it again.

Two years less college would do exactly that, it would bring down the cost. Not to mention they would begin earning money two years sooner.

[graciegirl]

I just looked at the syllabus for The Univ. of Florida Medical School for years 1 through 4. They do not take any of the courses you've mentioned while they are in medical school. Are you saying that they shouldn't have to take these courses in High School? If the standard dose of a drug for an adult male is 4mg/kg, then how much drug should be prescribed to a 200 pound man who has reduced kidney function? Go ahead and figure that out without using basic math skills. And, why would you deny a doctor the skills needed to not only enjoy art or music, but to understand why. I don't use my art appreciation course when I practice pharmacy, but I am grateful that I took it. Many times when people are in High School or taking undergraduate courses in College, they are not sure if they want to become doctors. That' what that period is for, to figure out who you are and what you want to do.


No "fluffy" courses at Harvard either. VPL read this;

Medical Education at Harvard (http://ecommons.med.harvard.edu/ec_vqp.asp?Name_GUID=%7B7D63742B-05F7-4F58-8441-46C8C0BF6A2A%7D)

[Villages PL]

I just looked at the syllabus for The Univ. of Florida Medical School for years 1 through 4. They do not take any of the courses you've mentioned while they are in medical school. Are you saying that they shouldn't have to take these courses in High School? If the standard dose of a drug for an adult male is 4mg/kg, then how much drug should be prescribed to a 200 pound man who has reduced kidney function? Go ahead and figure that out without using basic math skills. And, why would you deny a doctor the skills needed to not only enjoy art or music, but to understand why. I don't use my art appreciation course when I practice pharmacy, but I am grateful that I took it. Many times when people are in High School or taking undergraduate courses in College, they are not sure if they want to become doctors. That' what that period is for, to figure out who you are and what you want to do.

You looked at the syllabus for medical school but in my opening post I referred to "8 years". What happens in the first 4 years is what I question.

In high school they could require the same as always, as far as I'm concerned. I had art and music appreciation in high school.

I have nothing against doctors learning basic math skills. Give them whatever they need.

Those who need more time to figure out what they want to do can always take more time. But those who never doubted that they wanted to be a doctor should be able to go through in 6 years instead of 8. I had a friend in high school who said he wanted to be a doctor because his father was a doctor.

[BarryRX]

The "first" 4 years are not medical school. They are undergraduate study. Typically, after finishing 4 years of college a student may apply to a medical school. Then they go to medical school for 4 years, then have a year of internship, one or two years residency, and then take a fellowship if they so desire for about 2-3 years depending on the specialty. If you're saying we should let people apply to med school after only 2 years of university, then we would see a whole bunch of folks that don't have the building blocks needed to pass the first year of medical school. Take a look at a typical pre med curriculum. I think the problem here is that you don't have a very good idea of what a pre med and medical education entail.

[Villages PL]

No "fluffy" courses at Harvard either. VPL read this;

Medical Education at Harvard (http://ecommons.med.harvard.edu/ec_vqp.asp?Name_GUID=%7B7D63742B-05F7-4F58-8441-46C8C0BF6A2A%7D)

That's fine but what about the first 4 years of college?

[graciegirl]

The "first" 4 years are not medical school. They are undergraduate study. Typically, after finishing 4 years of college a student may apply to a medical school. Then they go to medical school for 4 years, then have a year of internship, one or two years residency, and then take a fellowship if they so desire for about 2-3 years depending on the specialty. If you're saying we should let people apply to med school after only 2 years of university, then we would see a whole bunch of folks that don't have the building blocks needed to pass the first year of medical school. Take a look at a typical pre med curriculum. I think the problem here is that you don't have a very good idea of what a pre med and medical education entail.

What he said.

[Villages PL]

The "first" 4 years are not medical school. They are undergraduate study. Typically, after finishing 4 years of college a student may apply to a medical school. Then they go to medical school for 4 years, then have a year of internship, one or two years residency, and then take a fellowship if they so desire for about 2-3 years depending on the specialty. If you're saying we should let people apply to med school after only 2 years of university, then we would see a whole bunch of folks that don't have the building blocks needed to pass the first year of medical school. Take a look at a typical pre med curriculum. I think the problem here is that you don't have a very good idea of what a pre med and medical education entail.

Read my opening post again. I referred to eight years of college to emphasize the fact of how long it takes to get through school. Obviously, 8 years includes 4 years of med school and 4 years of undergraduate study. No need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

What does a pre med curriculum consist of? Two years of a foreign language, right? Do they need that to get through the first year of medical school? And how many other non-essential courses are there?

[Bogie Shooter]

I want to be on BarryRX's team.

[graciegirl]

Read my opening post again. I referred to eight years of college to emphasize the fact of how long it takes to get through school. Obviously, 8 years includes 4 years of med school and 4 years of undergraduate study. No need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

What does a pre med curriculum consist of? Two years of a foreign language, right? Do they need that to get through the first year of medical school? And how many other non-essential courses are there?

Many people have already completed foreign language in High School including Latin, Also all higher maths. Good High Schools offer many advanced placement courses and candidates for medical school would very well have taken all of those courses which are challenging and needed. Internet Tech courses are needed too. I don't know of any fluffly courses on any pre med curriculum unless you consider physical education fluffy or diet and nutrition or business management inappropriate or useless. Only the best and brightest and most prepared students are admitted to medical school.

Where do you see students in premed taking art appreciation in college?

[Villages PL]

Pre-medical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pre-medical)

Second paragraph: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

I question all those courses that are not required.

[graciegirl]

Pre-medical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pre-medical)

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/students/careers/medicine/premedguide12.pdf

Can't find any art appreciation. Or Music appreciation. Barry already explained the need for a good math foundation.

[2BNTV]

I don't think training is the main obstacle in becoming a doctor. When a doctor completes his/her residency, they want to start their own practice. The cost of setting up a practice and the equipment they would need, is very costly, not to mention the "malpractice insurance" cost they would have to buy.

If they weren't sued for every little thing, they would be able to start off relatively easier, and not have to charge large fees, to try and recoup all they money they spent in medical school and on education.

I personally wouldn't want to go to a doctor that took shortcuts in his/her education. A doctor should be well versed, in all facets of life. IMHO

That is what one doctor told me when his son said he wanted to follow in his footsteps. He told his son to forget about it.

[graciegirl]

We may well soon see a greater doctor shortage. The terrible stress and responsibility that a person must face being an M.D. can't be compensated with mere money.

A physician friend of mine told me recently that many people bright enough to be physicians are choosing other career paths.

The profession is not as fulfilling as it once was when doctors knew their patients personally and visited them in their homes....and now the job includes managing a staff of bookkeepers to keep up with all the forms and restrictions that must be followed to get paid. Couple that with even the most precise knowledge applied in the most concerned and ethical ways still results in the death of a patient. Dealing with death is HARD on people. Why would you choose to do that when you can make just as much money in a less stressful employment??

I don't think the ACA will get us MORE doctors, maybe less.

[Villages PL]

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/students/careers/medicine/premedguide12.pdf

Can't find any art appreciation. Or Music appreciation. Barry already explained the need for a good math foundation.

I'll repeat the quote from Wikipedia: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

If they are allowed to choose any undergraduate major, then that would include art and music.

[Villages PL]

I don't think training is the main obstacle in becoming a doctor. When a doctor completes his/her residency, they want to start their own practice. The cost of setting up a practice and the equipment they would need, is very costly, not to mention the "malpractice insurance" cost they would have to buy.

If they weren't sued for every little thing, they would be able to start off relatively easier, and not have to charge large fees, to try and recoup all they money they spent in medical school and on education.

Two years less of non-required, non-essential, non-related undergraduate study would free up some of the money needed for office, equipment and insurance premiums.

I personally wouldn't want to go to a doctor that took shortcuts in his/her education. A doctor should be well versed, in all facets of life. IMHO

How about if we let people have a choice. Then those who want to can pay more for a doctor who knows more about art or music or some such undergraduate major that's not related to the field of medicine.

[blueash]

We may well soon see a greater doctor shortage. The terrible stress and responsibility that a person must face being an M.D. can't be compensated with mere money.

A physician friend of mine told me recently that many people bright enough to be physicians are choosing other career paths.

The profession is not as fulfilling as it once was when doctors knew their patients personally and visited them in their homes....and now the job includes managing a staff of bookkeepers to keep up with all the forms and restrictions that must be followed to get paid. Couple that with even the most precise knowledge applied in the most concerned and ethical ways still results in the death of a patient. Dealing with death is HARD on people. Why would you choose to do that when you can make just as much money in a less stressful employment??

There is nothing new about bright people choosing non-physician careers. Our best and brightest should be encouraged to go into science, law, education, basic research, business, economics, politics (yes politics), etc. Deciding on medicine means giving up the ideal hedonistic years to spend that time in being taught. You had better have a high acceptance for delayed gratification. You need to get a kick out of learning, exploring difficult concepts in depth, accepting uncertainty.

Humanity. Decency. Cultural competence. Interpersonal skills. Wonder. All of these would be valuable assets for a doctor. And all would be enhanced by taking art appreciation, theater, and a wide range of what I think is still called a liberal arts education. Learning to write and speak well. Learning to organize thoughts, understand alternative points of view, learn how to learn.

Medical school is to teach a body of information much of which is rapidly going to be outdated. Undergraduate education is to provide intellectual growth, how to delve deeply into material, how to think creatively and capture that creativity for positive goals. I wouldn't want my doctor missing those years.

Getting a doctor up and running two years faster is not going to make any dent in the shortage of primary care providers. Instead consider ways to make practicing medicine more rewarding, or its flip side, less stressful. But that's another topic.

[2BNTV]

Becoming a doctor is a great achievement. IMHO

There are also downsides too:
1. Some doctors pass away at an early age as they work very long hours. Some have been known to work a 100 hours per week between their practice and hospital rounds. They also have the burden of reading all of the medical periodical to keep up with the latest advance in medicine. Sometimes their families suffer, from their absence.
2. My old family doctor quit medicine when he had to deal with insurance companies as to what test they would approve. He complained to me he was arguing with a nurse who was denying a claim as he was thinking, "where did she get her medical degree"? I'm sure they have staff that deals with that sort of thing so they can concentrate on their medical practice.
3. A long time ago, doctors were a well respected member of the community that made house calls. Their knowledge was valued and they had a greater a greater compassion for their patients.

Personally, I would not have the desire or drive to put up with the myriad of things that needed to be done, to have great practice. I would be wondering if it, was all worth it?

Today, they get sued, at the drop of a hat!!!

BTW - My old doctor in CT died from cancer, a couple of years after he left his practice! It's a shame, as he was a good guy, who never got to enjoy retirement.

[Villages PL]

(snipped) Deciding on medicine means giving up the ideal hedonistic years to spend that time in being taught. You had better have a high acceptance for delayed gratification.

Two less years of schooling would help alleviate the above concern.

Humanity. Decency. Cultural competence. Interpersonal skills. Wonder. All of these would be valuable assets for a doctor. And all would be enhanced by taking art appreciation, theater, and a wide range of what I think is still called a liberal arts education. Learning to write and speak well. Learning to organize thoughts, understand alternative points of view, learn how to learn.

Yes, they would be valuable assets but we don't know how much more of those qualities they would have with 4 years of undergraduate study as opposed to 2 years.

Medical school is to teach a body of information much of which is rapidly going to be outdated. Undergraduate education is to provide intellectual growth, how to delve deeply into material, how to think creatively and capture that creativity for positive goals. I wouldn't want my doctor missing those years.

Then how about giving people a choice? I think a doctor might be better adjusted and more "well rounded" if he/she got out of school sooner. Especially due to the fact that a lot of college work requires memorizing rather than creativity.

Getting a doctor up and running two years faster is not going to make any dent in the shortage of primary care providers. Instead consider ways to make practicing medicine more rewarding, or its flip side, less stressful. But that's another topic.

What basis do you have for saying it won't make a dent? More people will be able to afford becoming a doctor. That alone may be a big incentive. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't have to put off living their lives for as long. And that in itself would make life less stressful.

[Villages PL]

Becoming a doctor is a great achievement. IMHO

There are also downsides too:
1. Some doctors pass away at an early age as they work very long hours. Some have been known to work a 100 hours per week between their practice and hospital rounds. They also have the burden of reading all of the medical periodical to keep up with the latest advance in medicine. Sometimes their families suffer, from their absence.
2. My old family doctor quit medicine when he had to deal with insurance companies as to what test they would approve. He complained to me he was arguing with a nurse who was denying a claim as he was thinking, "where did she get her medical degree"? I'm sure they have staff that deals with that sort of thing so they can concentrate on their medical practice.
3. A long time ago, doctors were a well respected member of the community that made house calls. Their knowledge was valued and they had a greater a greater compassion for their patients.

Personally, I would not have the desire or drive to put up with the myriad of things that needed to be done, to have great practice. I would be wondering if it, was all worth it?

Today, they get sued, at the drop of a hat!!!

BTW - My old doctor in CT died from cancer, a couple of years after he left his practice! It's a shame, as he was a good guy, who never got to enjoy retirement.


It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

[graciegirl]

I'll repeat the quote from Wikipedia: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

If they are allowed to choose any undergraduate major, then that would include art and music.


But they have to get into Med school which is competitive.

[graciegirl]

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

I don't know about that.

But I do know that some posters expose us to new forms of logic. If you post something they don't agree with and validate your point.

They change the subject.
They say it is funded by the food industry.
They say it is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.
They say they read it in a book.
They say that all doctors can't be trusted.(for the above reasons)
They say that nutritionists can't be trusted.(for the above reasons)
They make unsubstantiated claims or offer proof from some obscure source.

[graciegirl]

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.


You CANNOT educate yourself into more I.Q. points. I.Q. is pretty much innate with some chance of some change but not a lot..
Only the top three percent of the population; the intellectually brightest people, are candidates for med school. No school can make you smarter. It can educate you in the material that you will need to become a physician, but you have to be smart enough to absorb it and emotionally strong enough to practice medicine.

[dbussone]

I want to be on BarryRX's team.


And have one of BarryRXs trained docs as opposed to the proposed alternative.

[dbussone]

I'll repeat the quote from Wikipedia: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."



If they are allowed to choose any undergraduate major, then that would include art and music.


Perhaps, but I can tell you from personal experience that many (probably most) colleges with strong science schools have pre-med tracks that leave little time for anything but core science courses/pre-med requirements. The first year undergrad may have English, a language, etc. But by the second year students are trying to survive organic chemistry and other similar courses.

It is not uncommon, for those who know they will go the pre-med route, to take AP courses in high school to get extraneous courses out of the way.

[applesoffh]

My ex just retired from the medical profession. Young people may no longer be as motivated to go into medicine because of the cost of medical school being so prohibitive. In addition, I read in the NY Times a number of years ago how medical schools themselves keep the number of admissions artifically low to limit the number of doctors they graduate. Ditto the number of residencies given out. Just because someone graduates medical school doesn't guarantee a residency. Assuming a successful residency in a specialty, the doctor can now go out and earn a living, if they can find a practice. Can't afford to start one alone. Unless the doctor lives in a big city, she/he may not find a job. If you go where doctors are needed in this country, it's difficult to make a living. If you have a specialty, you have a begtter chance of earning a decent living than if you are a family physician, general practioner or internist. Specialists command more $$$. If you ask why there are so many foreign-born doctors in general practice, that's one of the reasons. They are sought out because they carry much less debt than an American-trained physician. I learned an awful lot putting my ex through school. (as an aside, he still carries debt; I'm retired!)

[sunnyatlast]

This whole thing is off track from the get-go, based on a faulty premise.

The dr. shortage is not due to their years of schooling or curriculum. It's due to fewer residency positions than there are graduates coming out of med school.

Required residency training is paid for in large part with Medicare funds, (supplying doctors in training at lower pay at teaching hospitals) and Medicare funding to the training programs is being cut by Congress, not increased:

New England Journal of Medicine -The Residency Mismatch
(The link works despite "error" inserted by forum):

MMS: Error (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1306445)

[dbussone]

Two less years of schooling would help alleviate the above concern.



Yes, they would be valuable assets but we don't know how much more of those qualities they would have with 4 years of undergraduate study as opposed to 2 years.



Then how about giving people a choice? I think a doctor might be better adjusted and more "well rounded" if he/she got out of school sooner. Especially due to the fact that a lot of college work requires memorizing rather than creativity.



What basis do you have for saying it won't make a dent? More people will be able to afford becoming a doctor. That alone may be a big incentive. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't have to put off living their lives for as long. And that in itself would make life less stressful.


There is a 6 year option for pre-med and med school. It is an extremely intensive education which involves going to school year round. Beyond med school most docs go for additional training for anywhere from 6 - 12 years. This additional training alone makes it near impossible to cut down the total length of training.

There's also a group called the AAMC (association of American medical colleges) that accredits medical schools based on scientifically based data.

[dbussone]

This whole thing is off track from the get-go, based on a faulty premise.

The dr. shortage is not due to their years of schooling or curriculum. It's due to fewer residency positions than there are graduates coming out of med school.

Required residency training is paid for in large part with Medicare funds, (supplying doctors in training at lower pay at teaching hospitals) and Medicare funding to the training programs is being cut by Congress, not increased:

New England Journal of Medicine -The Residency Mismatch
(The link works despite "error" inserted by forum):

MMS: Error (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1306445)


Bingo. I was just getting ready to bring this up. In the late 90's the Feds capped the number of residency slots that are reimbursable in part by Medicare. This has become the bottle neck for more docs.

[JoMar]

And no mention of malpractice insurance, the impact lawyers have on the cost of medical care, the governments involvement through regulation, the patent practice. Seems we blame the doctors, which probably is the lowest cost factor in the equation. Of course we can do what others do, socialize medicine, have the government pay for their education and then tax the heck of the citizens to support it.

[dbussone]

And no mention of malpractice insurance, the impact lawyers have on the cost of medical care, the governments involvement through regulation, the patent practice. Seems we blame the doctors, which probably is the lowest cost factor in the equation. Of course we can do what others do, socialize medicine, have the government pay for their education and then tax the heck of the citizens to support it.

We are on the path you describe unless something drastic happens. I've been an inside observer for more than 40 years. I am the first to admit that there are things that need to be done differently. However, I've studied other countries' systems, and consulted in Canada and Germany for their governments wishing to make some pro market changes. Having said that, we are in the process of destroying the best health system in the world. And I hate to see that happen...for my kids, and their kids sake.

[Barefoot]

If you're saying we should let people apply to med school after only 2 years of university, then we would see a whole bunch of folks that don't have the building blocks needed to pass the first year of medical school. Take a look at a typical pre med curriculum. I think the problem here is that you don't have a very good idea of what a pre med and medical education entail.

I want to be on BarryRX's team.


It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average
Black doctors................68.7
Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

I don't think that VPL is serious about doctors having "too much education".
I think he is just being controversial. But if he is serious, Barry, I want to be on your team too.

[SALYBOW]

He would contend that the lack of good, plentiful docotrs in mostly due to the low number of spots available in Medical schools. We have an affirmative action system in this country which makes the Medical schools accept many applicants from other countries and other ethnicities. Some of these docs return to their native countries and the rest come to FL. LOL
The reason there are so few opppening in the Med Schools is that the AMA does not want an overabundance of docs splitting the pie. Since an doctor can get a huge amount of student loans money should not be the problem there. The place where money becomes a problem is that with the huge cuts in pay that doctors are being forced to take is making all that hard work less attractive. Medical school is really a tough row to hoe.

[perrjojo]

There are fewer physicians because medical school is expensive and the student is going into the workforce 4 years later than other college graduates. After going into practice the physician is not his / her own boss. Their practice is run by insurance companies and the government. Medicare, Medicaid and insurance reinbursemets are decreasing each year. Expensive equipment, large number of staff needed to process all of the paper work are causing the physicians overhead to go through the roof. That is why we are having fewer doctors. Who would what to go through all of that? Oh, and then patients are non compliant and call them incompetent.

[blueash]

He would contend that the lack of good, plentiful docotrs in mostly due to the low number of spots available in Medical schools. We have an affirmative action system in this country which makes the Medical schools accept many applicants from other countries and other ethnicities. Some of these docs return to their native countries and the rest come to FL. LOL
The reason there are so few opppening in the Med Schools is that the AMA does not want an overabundance of docs splitting the pie. Since an doctor can get a huge amount of student loans money should not be the problem there. The place where money becomes a problem is that with the huge cuts in pay that doctors are being forced to take is making all that hard work less attractive. Medical school is really a tough row to hoe.

Do you have any references to support your contention that there is a system forcing medical schools to accept foreign applicants and other "ethnicities" whatever that might mean? What are the huge pay cuts you believe primary care or any doctors have taken? Do you have data? By what mechanism does the AMA, in your research, manage to keep new medical schools from opening?

[blueash]

In 2013 there were 20,055 students accepted in US medical schools. Of that number, 115 are residents outside the US. An additional small number are unclassified.

Of those 20,055 students, 1826 are Hispanic or Spanish surname, 1234 are Black, 3713 are Asian, 10,374 are White, the remainders are mixed or unknown or other.

[blueash]

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

Where did you get your statistic? Here is the last published data I could locate for your claim, and it is the opposite of your conclusion:

Mortality rates and causes among U.S. physicians. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020591)

"Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, than were lawyers, all examined professionals, and all men."

[CFrance]

According to FoxNews Politics,
Congress passes bill to stop cut in payments to Medicare doctors | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/31/congress-passes-bill-to-stop-cut-in-payments-to-medicare-doctors/)
there has not been a cut to the payments made to doctors by Medicare since 1997, except for one in 2002. Every year it comes up, and every year congress passes a last-minute patch to the proposed cuts. Would someone who thinks Medicare keeps cutting payments to doctors correct me with facts if I am wrong? (Not trying to be a wiseacre; just trying to understand the situation.)

[sunnyatlast]

According to FoxNews Politics,
Congress passes bill to stop cut in payments to Medicare doctors | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/31/congress-passes-bill-to-stop-cut-in-payments-to-medicare-doctors/)
there has not been a cut to the payments made to doctors by Medicare since 1997, except for one in 2002. Every year it comes up, and every year congress passes a last-minute patch to the proposed cuts. Would someone who thinks Medicare keeps cutting payments to doctors correct me with facts if I am wrong? (Not trying to be a wiseacre; just trying to understand the situation.)

"Cuts to teaching hospitals and graduate medical education (residency training) payments.

The budget proposes reducing Medicare add-on payments to teaching hospitals by 10 percent. Typically, hospitals receive those add-on payments to cover the indirect costs of teaching new physicians. In addition, HHS would encourage teaching hospitals to train more primary care residents through new GME payment standards.

Teaching hospitals would lose $960 million in Medicare payments in this upcoming year alone and more than $14.6 billion during the next decade."

Obama's Budget for 2015: 10 Points for Hospitals Know (http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/obama-s-budget-for-2015-10-points-for-hospitals-know.html)

[sunnyatlast]

Q: What is the sustainable growth rate?

A: Known as the SGR, the formula was created as part of a 1997 deficit reduction law designed to rein in federal health spending by linking physician payment to an economic growth target.

For the first few years after it was created, Medicare expenditures did not exceed the target and doctors received modest pay increases. But in 2002, doctors reacted with fury when they came in for a 4.8 percent pay cut.

Every year since Congress has staved off the scheduled cuts. But each deferral just increased the size – and price tag – of the fix needed the next time.….

...Q: How is Congress going to pay for this?

A: That’s unclear. None of the committees have identified how to finance the doc fix, intentionally staying away from the thorny issue in order to build political momentum to pass the legislation. Other Medicare providers, such as hospitals, are concerned that Congress may reduce their Medicare payments to help finance a repeal of the SGR……"

Congress Is Poised To Change Medicare Payment Policy. What Does That Mean For Patients And Doctors? | Kaiser Health News (http://kaiserhealthnews.org/news/congress-doc-fix-sustainable-growth-rate-sgr-legislation/)

[CFrance]

Q: What is the sustainable growth rate?

A: Known as the SGR, the formula was created as part of a 1997 deficit reduction law designed to rein in federal health spending by linking physician payment to an economic growth target.

For the first few years after it was created, Medicare expenditures did not exceed the target and doctors received modest pay increases. But in 2002, doctors reacted with fury when they came in for a 4.8 percent pay cut.

Every year since Congress has staved off the scheduled cuts. But each deferral just increased the size – and price tag – of the fix needed the next time.….

...Q: How is Congress going to pay for this?

A: That’s unclear. None of the committees have identified how to finance the doc fix, intentionally staying away from the thorny issue in order to build political momentum to pass the legislation. Other Medicare providers, such as hospitals, are concerned that Congress may reduce their Medicare payments to help finance a repeal of the SGR……"

Congress Is Poised To Change Medicare Payment Policy. What Does That Mean For Patients And Doctors? | Kaiser Health News (http://kaiserhealthnews.org/news/congress-doc-fix-sustainable-growth-rate-sgr-legislation/)
But none of the cuts has taken place yet. And supposedly a fix is to be worked on this year. I wanted to know where exactly each cut was happening as of right now. Because people are saying that Medicare has been cutting payments to doctors for years, when they haven't. I'd like to see them back up their statements with facts. Yes, they are arguing over where the money will come from, but it hasn't effected the doctors yet that I know of.

[Suzi]

If doctors had a pay cut of nearly 5% in 2002 and have not received an increase since then, how would you expect them to stay in practice? Employees of the practice expect, at least, COLA yearly. How in the world would a physician practice stay alive? I can say for certain that renumeration and government interference is the main reason that physicians are leaving medicine in droves.

[asianthree]

My ex just retired from the medical profession. Young people may no longer be as motivated to go into medicine because of the cost of medical school being so prohibitive. In addition, I read in the NY Times a number of years ago how medical schools themselves keep the number of admissions artifically low to limit the number of doctors they graduate. Ditto the number of residencies given out. Just because someone graduates medical school doesn't guarantee a residency. Assuming a successful residency in a specialty, the doctor can now go out and earn a living, if they can find a practice. Can't afford to start one alone. Unless the doctor lives in a big city, she/he may not find a job. If you go where doctors are needed in this country, it's difficult to make a living. If you have a specialty, you have a begtter chance of earning a decent living than if you are a family physician, general practioner or internist. Specialists command more $$$. If you ask why there are so many foreign-born doctors in general practice, that's one of the reasons. They are sought out because they carry much less debt than an American-trained physician. I learned an awful lot putting my ex through school. (as an aside, he still carries debt; I'm retired!)

We have a close friend who is still looking to get a residency he thinks if there is nothing within a year he career is done. Our two children as doctors came out of school with half million in debt, and we paid for the first 4 years of premed, and nope there was no basket weaving, lots of math and science, but he did many credits in Spanish cause you need the language.

[jblum315]

The United States has at least twice as many lawyers than doctors.
Why???

[perrjojo]

But none of the cuts has taken place yet. And supposedly a fix is to be worked on this year. I wanted to know where exactly each cut was happening as of right now. Because people are saying that Medicare has been cutting payments to doctors for years, when they haven't. I'd like to see them back up their statements with facts. Yes, they are arguing over where the money will come from, but it hasn't effected the doctors yet that I know of.
Not having a pay increase since 1997 is certainly the same as a pay cut. That is 17 years without a pay increase. Most employees would NOT tolerate not having a pay increase for 17 years. Add to the lack of pay increase the layers and layers of paperwork and increased need for office staff...well, there you go.

[blueash]

If doctors had a pay cut of nearly 5% in 2002 and have not received an increase since then, how would you expect them to stay in practice? Employees of the practice expect, at least, COLA yearly. How in the world would a physician practice stay alive? I can say for certain that renumeration and government interference is the main reason that physicians are leaving medicine in droves.

Well, as you are certain, what is the basis for your certainty? A single poll of a low percent of respondents is not certainty.

Do you really think a one time 5% reimbursement cut from one insurer would put a physician practice out of business? Were there a large number of physician bankruptcies in 2003? Do you have any data for your comment that physicians are actually leaving medicine in "droves" as opposed to retiring at the same rate they always have retired? Do you actually believe there has been no increase in insurance reimbursement since 2002? I am certain you are misunderstanding the available data.

[CFrance]

Not having a pay increase since 1997 is certainly the same as a pay cut. That is 17 years without a pay increase. Most employees would NOT tolerate not having a pay increase for 17 years. Add to the lack of pay increase the layers and layers of paperwork and increased need for office staff...well, there you go.

The facts are that there has been one reimbursement cut to doctors from Medicare since 1997. And yet so many on this forum state the opposite without backing up their statement with fact.

Minimum wage has rarely received an increase either. Both should be taken care of-- but wait, many of you would call that Big Government.

[blueash]

Not having a pay increase since 1997 is certainly the same as a pay cut. That is 17 years without a pay increase. Most employees would NOT tolerate not having a pay increase for 17 years. Add to the lack of pay increase the layers and layers of paperwork and increased need for office staff...well, there you go.

Your information that there has been no increase since 1997 is wrong.

I don't have a chart for 2007 to present.

[Mikeod]

Your information that there has been no increase since 1997 is wrong.

I don't have a chart for 2007 to present.

What would be interesting would be a similar chart showing the year to year rise in utilities, wages, rents, insurance, supplies, etc. in the health care sector. If a rise in reimbursement rates is well below the rise in costs to provide the services, there is a problem.

[billethkid]

What would be interesting would be a similar chart showing the year to year rise in utilities, wages, rents, insurance, supplies, etc. in the health care sector. If a rise in reimbursement rates is well below the rise in costs to provide the services, there is a problem.

Where is the base point?
There a reality the base being charged by doctors was significantly over stated in the first place knowing there would be varying approved levels of payments by differing insurance providers.

PAyment reductions or non increases are not an apples to apples comparison to wages or compensation that is paid without such variances.

[perrjojo]

Your information that there has been no increase since 1997 is wrong.

I don't have a chart for 2007 to present.

I was only quoting another poster who said they have had no pay cuts since 1997.

[sunnyatlast]

Where is the base point?
There a reality the base being charged by doctors was significantly over stated in the first place knowing there would be varying approved levels of payments by differing insurance providers.

PAyment reductions or non increases are not an apples to apples comparison to wages or compensation that is paid without such variances.

Here are some numbers to consider, from some primary practice business-planning consultants:

“In the primary care groups we’ve worked with, the biggest factor that determines how much business they need to bring in is directly tied to the salary the physician wants,” says Andrew Creme, MBA, a consultant with MD Practice Consulting, Lake Mary, Florida. When discussing benchmarks, “it really depends a lot on the situation a practice is in,” he adds.

If you are new to practice, only take what you need to survive, then determine how long it will take for you to break even, Quattlebaum says.

The average income of a PCP, depending on the size of the patient panel, ranges from $120,000 to $180,000. Add in staffing costs, overhead, facility fees, and more, and a “bare-bones” practice would have to bring in $700,000 to $800,000 a year in business, Creme estimates.

On the low end of the physician salary scale, a practice should expect to generate $50,000 to $60,000 per month in revenue. Average salary requirements drive a need for $100,000 to $150,000 a month in revenue, whereas high-end salaries demand $250,000 to $300,000 of revenue each month. Those figures only finance smaller practices, perhaps with a single practitioner and one to two midlevel providers, Creme says.

Once doctor income has been set, most new primary care practices need to earmark about $250,000 in startup costs, then decide what they will need in average collections to estimate a total panel size needed. Panel size and average collections depend on the market and the payer mix for their area of practice……"


6 keys to profitability | Medical Economics (http://medicaleconomics.modernmedicine.com/medical-economics/news/modernmedicine/modern-medicine-feature-articles/6-keys-profitability)

[Villages PL]

I don't think that VPL is serious about doctors having "too much education".
I think he is just being controversial. But if he is serious, Barry, I want to be on your team too.

No, I figure with all their vast knowledge about health care (that most people give them credit for) why don't they a least live as long as the rest of us? It seems their education isn't doing them much good in that regard.

[dbussone]

No, I figure with all their vast knowledge about health care (that most people give them credit for) why don't they a least live as long as the rest of us? It seems their education isn't doing them much good in that regard.

It appears you neglected to read/consider data provided by a previous poster. perhaps because it didn't support your position?


CONTENT/OBJECTIVES: No recent national studies have been published on age at death and causes of death for U.S. physicians, and previous studies have had sampling limitations. Physician morbidity and mortality are of interest for several reasons, including the fact that physicians' personal health habits may affect their patient counseling practices.
METHODS:
Data in this report are from the National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database and are derived from deaths occurring in 28 states between 1984 and 1995. Occupation is coded according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census classification system, and cause of death is coded according to the ninth revision of the International Classification of Diseases.
RESULTS:
Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, (73.0 years for white and 68.7 for black) than were lawyers (72.3 and 62.0), all examined professionals (70.9 and 65.3), and all men (70.3 and 63.6). The top ten causes of death for white male physicians were essentially the same as those of the general population, although they were more likely to die from cerebrovascular disease, accidents, and suicide, and less likely to die from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, pneumonia/influenza, or liver disease than were other professional white men.
CONCLUSIONS:
These findings should help to erase the myth of the unhealthy doctor. At least for men, mortality outcomes suggest that physicians make healthy personal choices.

[Bonnevie]

it's interesting that some on this thread want doctor's to have less education in areas outside of science. will they be the ones who complain that their doctor has no bedside manner, or should go to charm school as suggested about a practitioner in another thread?

[Villages PL]

But they have to get into Med school which is competitive.

More complete thoughts would be appreciated. I wasn't the one recommending they take art or music.

[Villages PL]

You CANNOT educate yourself into more I.Q. points. I.Q. is pretty much innate with some chance of some change but not a lot..
Only the top three percent of the population; the intellectually brightest people, are candidates for med school. No school can make you smarter. It can educate you in the material that you will need to become a physician, but you have to be smart enough to absorb it and emotionally strong enough to practice medicine.

What does that have to do with their shorter lifespan? (Average 73 for white physicians)

[Villages PL]

Perhaps, but I can tell you from personal experience that many (probably most) colleges with strong science schools have pre-med tracks that leave little time for anything but core science courses/pre-med requirements. The first year undergrad may have English, a language, etc. But by the second year students are trying to survive organic chemistry and other similar courses.

It is not uncommon, for those who know they will go the pre-med route, to take AP courses in high school to get extraneous courses out of the way.

So can they at least eliminate the first year? Organic chemistry? How much of it will they remember by the time they start their practice? Memorize, memorize, memorize and then forget about it.

[Villages PL]

Where did you get your statistic? Here is the last published data I could locate for your claim, and it is the opposite of your conclusion:

Mortality rates and causes among U.S. physicians. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020591)

"Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, than were lawyers, all examined professionals, and all men."

I just found that the male life expectancy has gone up to 75.2 Search: Male lifespan increasing - U.S.A. Today.

So doctors on average live 2.2 years less than the average male.

[Villages PL]

It appears you neglected to read/consider data provided by a previous poster. perhaps because it didn't support your position?


CONTENT/OBJECTIVES: No recent national studies have been published on age at death and causes of death for U.S. physicians, and previous studies have had sampling limitations. Physician morbidity and mortality are of interest for several reasons, including the fact that physicians' personal health habits may affect their patient counseling practices.
METHODS:
Data in this report are from the National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database and are derived from deaths occurring in 28 states between 1984 and 1995. Occupation is coded according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census classification system, and cause of death is coded according to the ninth revision of the International Classification of Diseases.
RESULTS:
Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, (73.0 years for white and 68.7 for black) than were lawyers (72.3 and 62.0), all examined professionals (70.9 and 65.3), and all men (70.3 and 63.6). The top ten causes of death for white male physicians were essentially the same as those of the general population, although they were more likely to die from cerebrovascular disease, accidents, and suicide, and less likely to die from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, pneumonia/influenza, or liver disease than were other professional white men.
CONCLUSIONS:
These findings should help to erase the myth of the unhealthy doctor. At least for men, mortality outcomes suggest that physicians make healthy personal choices.

Yes, I considered it and I responded to it. Average life expectancy for U.S. males is 75.2 If it's still 73 for physicians then they live 2.2 years less.

[graciegirl]

The thread was started on the premise that YOU think doctors should shorten their college time so we can have more doctors.

Now you give new figures on males living longer but still go by the old figures on doctors life span.

Are you sure you aren't a politician?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Great idea. Let's make it easier to become a doctor so that we have less qualified doctors.

The best and the brightest get attracted to this field because it pays so well. Sure, people who become doctors are also interested in what they do, but if it didn't pay so well, a number of them would choose to do something else.

It is extremely difficult to become a doctor. It should be so that we continue to attract the best and brightest to the field.

Personally, I'd rather have a shortage of outstanding doctors than a dearth of mediocre people who become docs because it was so easy.

[perrjojo]

One thing is clear, everyone of us has a different opinion. I think it would be good to ask your doctor next time you go in. Why do doctors think less people are going into practice? I am certain there are many reason.

[blueash]

I just found that the male life expectancy has gone up to 75.2 Search: Male lifespan increasing - U.S.A. Today.

So doctors on average live 2.2 years less than the average male.

No, you are misunderstanding the statistic. You cannot compare a life span number from 2013 to data collected in the 1980's. Again, where do you get your data that MD's life span is shorter than the average American? I posted numbers collected contemporaneously showing exactly the opposite, that MD's outlive their peer group. I think I am quite skilled at using the Google but I am willing to accept your findings if you can show me the source with a link. Some very exact numbers were posted with life spans for different kinds of doctors.

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/158***32
Anesthesiologists are living longer: mortality experience 1992 to 2... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16980155)
Mortality rates and causes among U.S. physicians. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020591)

[blueash]

One thing is clear, everyone of us has a different opinion. I think it would be good to ask your doctor next time you go in. Why do doctors think less people are going into practice? I am certain there are many reason.

There are not fewer people going into practice. There is a change in the field of medicine chosen to practice. Whereas 50 years ago the great majority of MD's went into what we now call primary care, there has been a significant shift toward selection of specialties for medical school graduates. This mostly comes down to dollars, prestige, and life style issues. But the absolute number of MD's and DO's being trained in the US continues to go up just not as quickly as the need and there are problems with distribution by location and specialty. Some of this insufficiency is being filled with NP's and PA's both of which require significantly shorter training programs and are less intensive.

[NYGUY]

Perhaps 8 years of college are too many. Let's at least shorten it to about 6.

Too many non-essential courses are required.

A doctor should not be expected to be all things to all people. So why is a doctor required to take X number of years of a foreign language?

How about courses like art appreciation and music appreciation etc. When was the last time you discussed art or music with your doctor?

Algebra? Trigonometry?

How does a doctor use algebra when diagnosing a patient? If diagnosis = y and treatment = x, outcome = Get real!!!

We end up paying for all the time and money they spend getting their education.

I'll take the eight year doctor....you can have the 6!!

[VT2TV]

Perhaps 8 years of college are too many. Let's at least shorten it to about 6.

Too many non-essential courses are required.

A doctor should not be expected to be all things to all people. So why is a doctor required to take X number of years of a foreign language?

How about courses like art appreciation and music appreciation etc. When was the last time you discussed art or music with your doctor?

Algebra? Trigonometry?

How does a doctor use algebra when diagnosing a patient? If diagnosis = y and treatment = x, outcome = Get real!!!

We end up paying for all the time and money they spend getting their education.


Unless you are a physician, and I doubt that, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you want a doctor with less education of any kind, I hope you find one. Every experience in life, and yes , every class taken by anyone, teaches different things-maybe even having how to cope and learn things they don't think they need, but may find out someday that they learned far more in a certain course than they thought. You want someone who is well rounded with coping skills, self direction, and having to do something they may not want to do. You are assuming that all people going through medical school are going to be GP's, but they all have to rotate through Peds, OB, GYN, psych, surgery, community health and diseases, radiation, trauma, etc, etc. You never know what you will use in all these situations. I agree with RX who said they use classes like math in many instances, and when they need it, they need to know how to do it quickly. I could go on, but basically I don't know if 8 years is enough.

[Bizdoc]

We have the 6 year people - we call them Physician Assistants. They have a 4 year undergrad degree plus a 2 year professional degree.

[dbussone]

We have the 6 year people - we call them Physician Assistants. They have a 4 year undergrad degree plus a 2 year professional degree.

There are also 6 year MDs as I noted earlier. You go to combined undergrad/MD program year round for 6 years. Boston University has one such program.

[Challenger]

There are also 6 year MDs as I noted earlier. You go to combined undergrad/MD program year round for 6 years. Boston University has one such program.

Physician extenders i.e. Physician Assistants, and Nurse Practioners could efficiiently do much of the more common tasks that many of us take up the time of MDs to diagnose and treat; colds ,flu, minor bumps and scratches and even more . The military uses extenders( corpsmen, army medics EMTs) widely and they provide quality care. Caution: The AMA will scream bloody murder.

[Villages PL]

The thread was started on the premise that YOU think doctors should shorten their college time so we can have more doctors.

I still think so.

Now you give new figures on males living longer but still go by the old figures on doctors life span.

If the figure for doctors' lifespan hasn't been updated, most likely it's because it hasn't changed. Do you have a more recent figure?

[Villages PL]

If the standard dose of a drug for an adult male is 4mg/kg, then how much drug should be prescribed to a 200 pound man who has reduced kidney function? Go ahead and figure that out without using basic math skills.

This has been brought up a time or two, so I'm going back to it. High school students are taught plenty of basic math. How much basic math does one need to figure out how much medicine to give to a person of a certain weight?

And, why would you deny a doctor the skills needed to not only enjoy art or music, but to understand why. I don't use my art appreciation course when I practice pharmacy, but I am grateful that I took it.

I had art and music classes in grammar school and high school. Then a couple of art courses again in college. How much is enough? I think I had enough before I got to college. What I learned in college I could have learned from a library book(s) at some later time.....in my spare time. A college education can be very expensive whereas a good library book doesn't cost a penny.

[sunnyatlast]

Physician extenders i.e. Physician Assistants, and Nurse Practioners could efficiiently do much of the more common tasks that many of us take up the time of MDs to diagnose and treat; colds ,flu, minor bumps and scratches and even more . The military uses extenders( corpsmen, army medics EMTs) widely and they provide quality care. Caution: The AMA will scream bloody murder.

This (quoted) is so far behind the times... Practically all hospitals, ERs, and dr. offices use PAs and they are good to have within their specific and tightly limited scope of practice. .

One can read all day long here on threads about experiences with PAs......both good and bad. And then you can read about how some should "go back to charm school" or learn when to admit they're in over their head and need the physician to take over.

I wonder if you guys want a law clerk or paralegal to defend you in a prosecution against you for hitting somebody with the car and they get killed.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Cut art and music??? Not according to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0JKCYZ8hng

[dbussone]

Physician extenders i.e. Physician Assistants, and Nurse Practioners could efficiiently do much of the more common tasks that many of us take up the time of MDs to diagnose and treat; colds ,flu, minor bumps and scratches and even more . The military uses extenders( corpsmen, army medics EMTs) widely and they provide quality care. Caution: The AMA will scream bloody murder.

I agree. And because of PAs and ARNPs we have more providers than we would otherwise.

My point re 6 year MD programs was- tho they exist, the students are cramming all the courses into 6 years rather than 8. It is a brutal curriculum - and for that reason I elected not to go into it after being accepted.

[Villages PL]

Cut art and music??? Not according to this.

How playing an instrument benefits your brain - Anita Collins - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0JKCYZ8hng)

Many thanks to The Arts Counsel, a group that provides funding and advocacy for the arts.

Note: Going for a walk benefits your brain too.

[CFrance]

There is an advocacy group for everything. There is a book for everything. You like to quote books and different groups as authority for your agenda. So nobody else should?

Walk home from the library.

[rubicon]

Let's put an end to doctor shortage. heck let's just skip medical school altogethe and go straight to on the job training.

[SALYBOW]

The Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) has four sections: Physical Sciences, Verbal Reasoning, Writing Sample and Biological Sciences. The exam tests students knowledge of biology, inorganic and organic chemistry, and physics, as well as critical thinking and general writing skills. Because the MCAT includes sections that test your ability to reason verbally and to synthesize and analyze concepts and ideas through writing, you'll want to be sure to take one year of English Composition as well as classes in humanities and social sciences, in addition to the requisite science courses suggested for exam proficiency.

In order to take these classes successfully Math through Calc III is needed.

It goesn't sound like one can eliminate the four years of college. My son majored in Theology and they loved that as a pre-major. They told him he would really use it. Thay also liked that he took logic. :cus:

[Villages PL]

There is an advocacy group for everything. There is a book for everything. You like to quote books and different groups as authority for your agenda. So nobody else should?


There's nothing wrong with advocacy groups or books as long as people are aware of it. The point is: If music were the only way to improve one's brain, it might be considered essential for pre-med, assuming pre-med students need to improve their brains. But it's not the only way to improve one's brain.

Walk home from the library.

Pre-med students: Walk around campus.

[Villages PL]

I'll take the eight year doctor....you can have the 6!!

As long as I'm getting it "free" through my HMO, I'll take the 8 year doctor too.

But if there were a choice between an eight year doc and a 6 year doc, I wonder how many people would choose the 6 year doc if there were a difference in price of $25 dollars.

[Villages PL]

The Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) has four sections: Physical Sciences, Verbal Reasoning, Writing Sample and Biological Sciences. The exam tests students knowledge of biology, inorganic and organic chemistry, and physics, as well as critical thinking and general writing skills. Because the MCAT includes sections that test your ability to reason verbally and to synthesize and analyze concepts and ideas through writing, you'll want to be sure to take one year of English Composition as well as classes in humanities and social sciences, in addition to the requisite science courses suggested for exam proficiency.

In order to take these classes successfully Math through Calc III is needed.

It goesn't sound like one can eliminate the four years of college. My son majored in Theology and they loved that as a pre-major. They told him he would really use it. Thay also liked that he took logic. :cus:

Thanks for the explanation. It certainly sounds like a high powered curriculum. But wouldn't it be fair to ask if it's working? I would think the underlying essence of it all is whether or not patients are being helped. If not, what is the point of all that schooling?

Research has found that, overall, annual physicals prevent nothing, according to a Daily Sun column by David Lipschitz M.D. This is the overall result you get when you compare benefits versus harm caused by conventional medicine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom says: Don't change the requirements for a medical degree. But consider the following:

800,000 deaths per year are caused by conventional medicine. It's the leading cause of death and injury in the U.S. (Source: "Death By Medicine", Copyright 2010)

[dbussone]

Thanks for the explanation. It certainly sounds like a high powered curriculum. But wouldn't it be fair to ask if it's working? I would think the underlying essence of it all is whether or not patients are being helped. If not, what is the point of all that schooling?

Research has found that, overall, annual physicals prevent nothing, according to a Daily Sun column by David Lipschitz M.D. This is the overall result you get when you compare benefits versus harm caused by conventional medicine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom says: Don't change the requirements for a medical degree. But consider the following:

800,000 deaths per year are caused by conventional medicine. It's the leading cause of death and injury in the U.S. (Source: "Death By Medicine", Copyright 2010)

The Flexner Report about 80 years ago did that very job, and changed medical education significantly. The AAMC has followed up on a frequent basis and keeps up with the times. It is working!

The Daily Sun is not an expert on medical education ...despite the fact that I enjoy it and read it everyday.

[dbussone]

Thanks for the explanation. It certainly sounds like a high powered curriculum. But wouldn't it be fair to ask if it's working? I would think the underlying essence of it all is whether or not patients are being helped. If not, what is the point of all that schooling?

Research has found that, overall, annual physicals prevent nothing, according to a Daily Sun column by David Lipschitz M.D. This is the overall result you get when you compare benefits versus harm caused by conventional medicine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conventional wisdom says: Don't change the requirements for a medical degree. But consider the following:

800,000 deaths per year are caused by conventional medicine. It's the leading cause of death and injury in the U.S. (Source: "Death By Medicine", Copyright 2010)

P.S. your response makes it appear as though those deaths are singularly assignable to physicians. Not accurate. You need to include hospitals, surgical centers, RNs, LPNs, PAs, EMTs, Paramedics, and everyone else involved in "conventional medicine". Your assertion is not assignable solely to physicians.

[zonerboy]

Try to understand biochemistry if you have skipped organic chemistry. Some posters seem to be severely limited in the logic department. Maybe they'd be good candidates for the fast track medical school concept.

[Villages PL]

The Flexner Report about 80 years ago did that very job, and changed medical education significantly. The AAMC has followed up on a frequent basis and keeps up with the times. It is working!

If it's working, why are there 800,000 deaths per year. Basically, doctors are in charge of medical care, not EMTs, PAs nurses or hospitals, etc. (The buck stops at the doctor's desk.)

The Daily Sun is not an expert on medical education ...despite the fact that I enjoy it and read it everyday.

The column wasn't written by the daily sun, it was written by a medical doctor.

[dbussone]

The buck doesn't stop at the doctors desk in all cases. Your data is spurious-you quote a number that is more than twice what the CDC reports. And your average doc is not an expert because he/she writes a column that supports what you wish to say. Do you watch Dr Oz everyday and practice what he preaches?

[Villages PL]

The buck doesn't stop at the doctors desk in all cases.

Give me an example.


Your data is spurious-you quote a number that is more than twice what the CDC reports.

The Center for Disease Control (CDC) is usually about disease. Many of these 800,000 yearly deaths are not due to disease.


And your average doc is not an expert because he/she writes a column that supports what you wish to say. Do you watch Dr Oz everyday and practice what he preaches?

And, likewise, he's not wrong just because he doesn't support what you wish to say.

I don't watch television. Although, I have one of his books that I bought in the library's used book room for a dollar.

[dbussone]

Give me an example.




The Center for Disease Control (CDC) is usually about disease. Many of these 800,000 yearly deaths are not due to disease.




And, likewise, he's not wrong just because he doesn't support what you wish to say.

I don't watch television. Although, I have one of his books that I bought in the library's used book room for a dollar.

The CDC is the official repository for morbidity and mortality data for our country. ( And for many other vital statistics not associated with "disease.") The link which follows will take you to their official publication on the multiple causes of death for 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr62/nvsr62_06.pdf.

Enjoy!

[dbussone]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the report is 95 pages.

[Villages PL]

The CDC is the official repository for morbidity and mortality data for our country. ( And for many other vital statistics not associated with "disease.") The link which follows will take you to their official publication on the multiple causes of death for 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr62/nvsr62_06.pdf.

Enjoy!

The link you provided has a classification for "accidental deaths" but not "deaths due to medical errors".

[dbussone]

Good for you! If the official keeper of death statistics for the U.S. doesn't maintain that data, what does it tell you about the source you quoted?
Signing off!

[Barefoot]

Snipped..... Conventional wisdom says: Don't change the requirements for a medical degree. But consider the following:
800,000 deaths per year are caused by conventional medicine. It's the leading cause of death and injury in the U.S. (Source: "Death By Medicine", Copyright 2010)
Is this the "Death by Medicine" book written by Gary Null PHD, who subsequently wrote 30 controversial books? And then he became an American Talk Show Host who has marketed a variety of supplemental products over the years?
If so, please view the Quack-watch Report here:
A Critical Look at Gary Null's Activities and Credentials (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surely you give credence to some of dbussones's and Zonerboy's comments and opinions .... (I apologize, some are posted out of order...)

The Flexner Report about 80 years ago did that very job, and changed medical education significantly. The AAMC has followed up on a frequent basis and keeps up with the times. It is working!

The Daily Sun is not an expert on medical education ...despite the fact that I enjoy it and read it everyday.

P.S. your response makes it appear as though those deaths are singularly assignable to physicians. Not accurate. You need to include hospitals, surgical centers, RNs, LPNs, PAs, EMTs, Paramedics, and everyone else involved in "conventional medicine". Your assertion is not assignable solely to physicians.

Try to understand biochemistry if you have skipped organic chemistry. Some posters seem to be severely limited in the logic department. Maybe they'd be good candidates for the fast track medical school concept.
The link you provided has a classification for "accidental deaths" but not "deaths due to medical errors".
Good for you! If the official keeper of death statistics for the U.S. doesn't maintain that data, what does it tell you about the source you quoted?

The CDC is the official repository for morbidity and mortality data for our country. ( And for many other vital statistics not associated with "disease.") The link which follows will take you to their official publication on the multiple causes of death for 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr62/nvsr62_06.pdf.

Enjoy!

The buck doesn't stop at the doctors desk in all cases. Your data is spurious-you quote a number that is more than twice what the CDC reports. And your average doc is not an expert because he/she writes a column that supports what you wish to say. Do you watch Dr Oz everyday and practice what he preaches?

It appears you neglected to read/consider data provided by a previous poster. perhaps because it didn't support your position?


CONTENT/OBJECTIVES: No recent national studies have been published on age at death and causes of death for U.S. physicians, and previous studies have had sampling limitations. Physician morbidity and mortality are of interest for several reasons, including the fact that physicians' personal health habits may affect their patient counseling practices.
METHODS:
Data in this report are from the National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database and are derived from deaths occurring in 28 states between 1984 and 1995. Occupation is coded according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census classification system, and cause of death is coded according to the ninth revision of the International Classification of Diseases.
RESULTS:
Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, (73.0 years for white and 68.7 for black) than were lawyers (72.3 and 62.0), all examined professionals (70.9 and 65.3), and all men (70.3 and 63.6). The top ten causes of death for white male physicians were essentially the same as those of the general population, although they were more likely to die from cerebrovascular disease, accidents, and suicide, and less likely to die from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, pneumonia/influenza, or liver disease than were other professional white men.
CONCLUSIONS:
These findings should help to erase the myth of the unhealthy doctor. At least for men, mortality outcomes suggest that physicians make healthy personal choices.

[CFrance]

(snipped)
Surely you give credence to some of dbussones's and Zonerboy's comments and opinions .... (I apologize, some are posted out of order...)
Thank you for gathering all the credible responses to the OP in one spot. Even if OP chooses to refute these, not give them consideration or credibility, or blithely dismises them on the basis of a few short cherry-picked sentences taken out of context, the rest of us can see their validity.

[graciegirl]

If it's working, why are there 800,000 deaths per year. Basically, doctors are in charge of medical care, not EMTs, PAs nurses or hospitals, etc. (The buck stops at the doctor's desk.)

My response;You must accept that people die. Either if they get old wear out, or they meet with disease or an accident.


The column wasn't written by the daily sun, it was written by a medical doctor.

Not all things published in print journalism or anyplace can be taken at face value. We gain so much background information from new sources such as television and the internet. I think VPL that it is time for you to buy a television and contract for internet services. You will gain up to date information and misinformation 24/7.

[graciegirl]

Give me an example.





The Center for Disease Control (CDC) is usually about disease. Many of these 800,000 yearly deaths are not due to disease.




And, likewise, he's not wrong just because he doesn't support what you wish to say.

I don't watch television. Although, I have one of his books that I bought in the library's used book room for a dollar.

Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[graciegirl]

[/COLOR][/B]
Is this the "Death by Medicine" book written by Gary Null PHD, who subsequently wrote 30 controversial books? And then he became an American Talk Show Host who has marketed a variety of supplemental products over the years?
If so, please view the Quack-watch Report here:
A Critical Look at Gary Null's Activities and Credentials (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surely you give credence to some of dbussones's and Zonerboy's comments and opinions .... (I apologize, some are posted out of order...)


bump

[graciegirl]

PLease read back several posts before my bunch of posts. Barefoot make an excellent summary and I was unable to copy it. It is far more to the point than mine.