Tommy rant. Yo God

[Tom Hannon]

A friend of mine,June Kempf" wrote a wonderful memoir about her special needs son. "Yo God! Jay's Story" has been banned in a public school because of "God" being mentioned in the title. To some it is politically incorrect.

It is so sad what is happening to this country. Pretty soon "In God we Trust" will be removed from all currency and "God Bless America" will not allowed to be sung. And what next. Will Santa Claus be arrested for being an imposter? This country is doomed. Glad I am in my final third of my life and I won't be alive to see the total destruction awaiting us.

[casita37]

Public schools are supported by ALL people, Christians and non-Christians, so not sure why anyone would think it's "politically correct" to ban religion in school. It's just proper. Christians had dominance for many, many years. There are a lot of different beliefs, and tax dollars should not support one over the other.

Teach your kids at home, take them to the church of your choice, send them to a private, religious school. Don't put the responsibility on the public, tax supported, schools. Oh, and it's the law!

[dbussone]

The separation of church and state refers to creation of a state sponsored religion or official religion. It does not prohibit various interactions between governmental agencies and independent religious organizations. Unfortunately political correctness has bred a climate of inappropriate reaction. Oh, and it's not the law. For example schools are allowed to offer space for Sunday church, under the same rules allowed for other organizations...unless a state or other governmental entity has precluded such by policy or legislation.

[rubicon]

The separation of church and state refers to creation of a state sponsored religion or official religion. It does not prohibit various interactions between governmental agencies and independent religious organizations. Unfortunately political correctness has bred a climate of inappropriate reaction. Oh, and it's not the law. For example schools are allowed to offer space for Sunday church, under the same rules allowed for other organizations...unless a state or other governmental entity has precluded such by policy or legislation.

Well stated dbussone. i am sick of that lame excuse atheist are intent on stripping God loving people of their inalienable rights

[casita37]

"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

[quirky3]

"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

Yes! Exactly! Some people do play the "politically incorrect card" in bizarre ways to excuse their own bias. VERY tired of that. And I totally agree that there is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

[onslowe]

[QUOTE=dbussone;971585]The separation of church and state refers to creation of a state sponsored religion or official religion. It does not prohibit various interactions between governmental agencies and independent religious organizations. Unfortunately political correctness has bred a climate of inappropriate reaction. Oh, and it's not the law. For example schools are allowed to offer space for Sunday church, under the same rules allowed for other organizations...unless a state or other governmental entity has precluded such by policy or legislation.[/QUOTe

Exactly and thank you dbussone for reminding all of us, including those who want religious thought and expression banished from our country.

If anyone wants to see examples of tortured thinking and embarassing misuse of history, logic and jurisprudence, take a good look at the string of Supreme Court cases involving prayer in schools, released time bussing and so on.

The stance complained about by the OP is completely dishonest and improper, not proper. It's the 'law' is a facile and perhaps smarmy way of ignoring the fact that our country got along just fine for over one hundred and fifty years without "it" being the law.

I agree fully with Tommy's last sentence.

[Challenger]

As with other "freedoms" and "rights", I would be willing to defend Americans with my life ,if necessary, in their practice of faith privately and in public.

I think however that our "governments" should play no part in the validation of any religion. Whether we like it or not we are a multi cultural, multi religion country , with many more atheist, agnostics , and deist, than you might imagine, where each has equal rights under law. To add symbols and references to specific religious sects creates a very slipery slope that will lead to more , rather than less divisiveness and resentment throughout this exceptional country.

I share religious celebrations with jewish, buddahists and christian friends in their private homes , temples ,churches , and other non government venues.

As I recall, "'in God we trust" was added to the pledge in the early 1950's and to currency only a few years before.

Yes , I am unsure who or what created the cosmos, but I support all who do good, show mercy, and kindness whatever their faith or lack thereof.

[dbussone]

"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.


I'm not sure what makes an old or outdated belief no longer valid, other than someone calling them such. I still support and believe in the founding principles of our country. I may be old fashioned but I have 5 relatives who fought for these principles in the Revolutionary War. I don't believe it was to support political correctness.

[bimmertl]

If you look up the book on line and read some of the reviews it appears there are many references to the authors faith and the challenges she faced in raising her son while maintaing her faith. So while it's easy to say the book was allegedly banned in one school because it mentions God in the title, it appears there could be a lot more to it than just the title that resulted in the alleged banning at the unknown school.

[onslowe]

No matter how you cut it, political correctness is just another form of smiley faced fascism with the iron fist in the ever so velvet glove of Big Brother knows better than us.

Outdated? By what honest, not parroted criterion?

[alwann]

Hey, I know! Burn all books!

No book should be banned. Parents (and, I suppose teachers) may choose to shied young minds from some books, but let's never ban any.

Where does it end?

Go back and read Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451

[eweissenbach]

No matter how you cut it, political correctness is just another form of smiley faced fascism with the iron fist in the ever so velvet glove of Big Brother knows better than us.

Outdated? By what honest, not parroted criterion?

Would you be equally indignant if the school had banned "Heather has two Mommies", or Christopher Hitchens' "God is not Great"? Would that be political correctness, or protecting children from indecent ideas?

[Walter123]

Good Lord........

[dbussone]

Good Lord........


Exactly. (Another lob.)

[BarryRX]

Originally Posted by casita37 View Post
"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

I'm not sure what makes an old or outdated belief no longer valid, other than someone calling them such. I still support and believe in the founding principles of our country. I may be old fashioned but I have 5 relatives who fought for these principles in the Revolutionary War. I don't believe it was to support political correctness.
__________________

Because I agree with Casita37 completely, I will explain some beliefs and practices that were routine in this country but are now outdated. Slavery is no longer tolerated in this country, nor is treating women as second class citizens who do not have the right to vote. Calling black men "boys" is no longer acceptable nor is using the "N" word. Blurting out racial stereotypes is no longer acceptable. I am sure that those who opposed ending the above practices thought that those who wanted to end them were being politically correct. If my sister was born in the 1920's instead of the 1950's, there would have been very few professional career options open to her. Things change, and change is usually resisted, and the rallying cry of that resistance is often political correctness. Your relatives who fought in the Revolutionary war were probably subjects of King George III at the time, and it was quite "politically incorrect" to rebel if you were in New York colony, but quite politically correct if you were in the colony of Virginia. As to my friend Tommy's claim that this is banned in school, even if true, the author has the right to speak in any religious school that will have her, or for that matter on any street corner. With 5 churches on every corner, we cry about our loss of religious freedom. We have every right to practice our religion, we just don't have the right to impose it on others.

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by casita37 View Post
"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

I'm not sure what makes an old or outdated belief no longer valid, other than someone calling them such. I still support and believe in the founding principles of our country. I may be old fashioned but I have 5 relatives who fought for these principles in the Revolutionary War. I don't believe it was to support political correctness.
__________________

Because I agree with Casita37 completely, I will explain some beliefs and practices that were routine in this country but are now outdated. Slavery is no longer tolerated in this country, nor is treating women as second class citizens who do not have the right to vote. Calling black men "boys" is no longer acceptable nor is using the "N" word. Blurting out racial stereotypes is no longer acceptable. I am sure that those who opposed ending the above practices thought that those who wanted to end them were being politically correct. If my sister was born in the 1920's instead of the 1950's, there would have been very few professional career options open to her. Things change, and change is usually resisted, and the rallying cry of that resistance is often political correctness. Your relatives who fought in the Revolutionary war were probably subjects of King George III at the time, and it was quite "politically incorrect" to rebel if you were in New York colony, but quite politically correct if you were in the colony of Virginia. As to my friend Tommy's claim that this is banned in school, even if true, the author has the right to speak in any religious school that will have her, or for that matter on any street corner. With 5 churches on every corner, we cry about our loss of religious freedom. We have every right to practice our religion, we just don't have the right to impose it on others.


I didn't say I supported "practices" I support the principles upon which this country was founded you. You can find them in:
1) the Declaration of Independence
2) the Constitution, and
3) the Bill of Rights.

Please don't read anything else into my post.

[Walter123]

My fun meter is starting to go negative.

[dbussone]

My fun meter is starting to go negative.


Agreed. Signing off this thread.

[eweissenbach]

My fun meter is starting to go negative.

Agreed. Signing off this thread.

Well, this isn't a "fun" topic. It Is one which should evoke intelligent and dispassionate discussion.

[dbussone]

Well, this isn't a "fun" topic. It Is one which should evoke intelligent and dispassionate discussion.


Then posters should practice what you preach.

[Indydealmaker]

"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

I was raised to believe that the word God was universally applied as the belief in a supreme being regardless of the unique names for said supreme entity. Believing in a God does not have to exclude anyone except atheists. For those I have no retort.

[eweissenbach]

Then posters should practice what you preach.

I asked a legitimate question earlier and you ignored it. I did not say your comments were wrong, I simply posed a question, (as devil's advocate, some would say literally) which was apparently, not to your liking.

[quirky3]

Originally Posted by casita37 View Post
"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.

I'm not sure what makes an old or outdated belief no longer valid, other than someone calling them such. I still support and believe in the founding principles of our country. I may be old fashioned but I have 5 relatives who fought for these principles in the Revolutionary War. I don't believe it was to support political correctness.
__________________

Because I agree with Casita37 completely, I will explain some beliefs and practices that were routine in this country but are now outdated. Slavery is no longer tolerated in this country, nor is treating women as second class citizens who do not have the right to vote. Calling black men "boys" is no longer acceptable nor is using the "N" word. Blurting out racial stereotypes is no longer acceptable. I am sure that those who opposed ending the above practices thought that those who wanted to end them were being politically correct. If my sister was born in the 1920's instead of the 1950's, there would have been very few professional career options open to her. Things change, and change is usually resisted, and the rallying cry of that resistance is often political correctness. Your relatives who fought in the Revolutionary war were probably subjects of King George III at the time, and it was quite "politically incorrect" to rebel if you were in New York colony, but quite politically correct if you were in the colony of Virginia. As to my friend Tommy's claim that this is banned in school, even if true, the author has the right to speak in any religious school that will have her, or for that matter on any street corner. With 5 churches on every corner, we cry about our loss of religious freedom. We have every right to practice our religion, we just don't have the right to impose it on others.

Thanks Barry! That's a very effective explanation about the concept of (and chronic misuse of) political correctness.

[Abby10]

Tommy, I want to thank you for your OP. Despite all the negativity that your post seems to have stirred, I do not feel that you posted in vain. I personally know several people who either have a special needs child or work with special needs children to whom I am going to recommend this book. I hope that your post also reaches out to others like them and that they also purchase the book. Although I do not have a copy of the book myself to peruse, I have read the reviews online about it and do not see that it is a "religious" book. Although the author's faith is mentioned, it does not seem to be the basis for writing the book. IMHO, the school seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill - nothing unusual in this world today - but I say "shame on them" because I think they may be doing a real disservice by banning this book. It seems to be a very unique read and could be very inspirational for those who have special needs children, those who work with them, and those of us in this world who have a heart for these children and the very special families that raise them.

[eweissenbach]

Tommy, I want to thank you for your OP. Despite all the negativity that your post seems to have stirred, I do not feel that you posted in vain. I personally know several people who either have a special needs child or work with special needs children to whom I am going to recommend this book. I hope that your post also reaches out to others like them and that they also purchase the book. Although I do not have a copy of the book myself to peruse, I have read the reviews online about it and do not see that it is a "religious" book. Although the author's faith is mentioned, it does not seem to be the basis for writing the book. IMHO, the school seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill - nothing unusual in this world today - but I say "shame on them" because I think they may be doing a real disservice by banning this book. It seems to be a very unique read and could be very inspirational for those who have special needs children, those who work with them, and those of us in this world who have a heart for these children and the very special families that raise them.

Sorry, but having read all the posts I am not aware of any that are "negative" as such. I am a friend of Tommy's and I respect his stand though I do not totally agree with it. Expressing differing opinions in a respectful manner or asking people to make their stance clear is not negative, but the basis upon which this country was founded. When we can't have respectful debate or try for understanding of differing views, we get the federal government we are currently saddled with. I commend you for recommending this book for parents of special needs children, and I would also. It is one thing however to recommend, or buy a book, and another to introduce it into a public school. BTW, all three of my kids graduated from high schools with church ties, and I would have been fine with them requiring a book such as this to be read.

[Abby10]

Sorry, but having read all the posts I am not aware of any that are "negative" as such. I am a friend of Tommy's and I respect his stand though I do not totally agree with it. Expressing differing opinions in a respectful manner or asking people to make their stance clear is not negative, but the basis upon which this country was founded. When we can't have respectful debate or try for understanding of differing views, we get the federal government we are currently saddled with. I commend you for recommending this book for parents of special needs children, and I would also. It is one thing however to recommend, or buy a book, and another to introduce it into a public school. BTW, all three of my kids graduated from high schools with church ties, and I would have been fine with them requiring a book such as this to be read.

I agree with some of what you say, especially the highlighted part above. I love a good debate myself and find there is often a lot to be learned from someone with differing views. Sometimes, however, I don't always think the projected stance taken on TOTV on threads such as this are always done in a very respectful manner. In other words, instead of a "debate" it becomes a "baiting". So as not to hijack this thread however, I'll get back to the OP's original concern and wrap up by saying that I still don't get the rejection of this book. It does not appear to be focused on the author's specific religion. The problem seems to be the simple mention of God and the author's general faith. Why would any school, public or not, be so adamant that God never even be mentioned? Again, I say it's overkill regarding the banning of a book.

[MikeV]

I had originally avoided this thread but unfortunately I got curious what the discussion was. Now I know why my first thoughts were valid. Bye.

[blueash]

I wonder if the OP could post additional information. What was the reason a school became involved? What form did "banning" take? Did a teacher want to assign all the students to read this book? Did the author want to donate it to the school library? Banned could mean so many different things. What is the age of the students at the school. My internet search found no stories at all about banning this book, other than hits to this thread.

[Tom Hannon]

I am sorry for posting such a contoversal post. Doing so, is not my norm. When I first posted my rant on TOTV it was just that.... a rant,and I should have been more specific. Since posting, I contacted June to discuss the ban. It was actually the library that banned the book. Not the school.
The title "Yo God, Jay's Story" had nothing to do with religion. Yo God, was just a saying Jonathan (his birth name) said when he got exited. Although there is mention of June questioning the higher power when Her son's health got worse and medical professionals were not being honest with her. She watched her son die slowly and she needed to blame someone. Actually June is a highly religious person. She plays organ and sings at the church and is highly motivated in other church functions. Faith in God has nothing to do with her story, a story everyone who has walked down that dark path should read.
My complaint is, This story is writen from her heart and her shared experiences could help others cope with a similar situation. Banning this book is a mistake. PS. I was influential in assisting June choose a title. I saw no reason of it being so offensive.

[Rags123]

I am sorry for posting such a contoversal post. Doing so, is not my norm. When I first posted my rant on TOTV it was just that.... a rant,and I should have been more specific. Since posting, I contacted June to discuss the ban. It was actually the library that banned the book. Not the school.
The title "Yo God, Jay's Story" had nothing to do with religion. Yo God, was just a saying Jonathan (his birth name) said when he got exited. Although there is mention of June questioning the higher power when Her son's health got worse and medical professionals were not being honest with her. She watched her son die slowly and she needed to blame someone. Actually June is a highly religious person. She plays organ and sings at the church and is highly motivated in other church functions. Faith in God has nothing to do with her story, a story everyone who has walked down that dark path should read.
My complaint is, This story is written from her heart and her shared experiences could help others cope with a similar situation. Banning this book is a mistake. PS. I was influential in assisting June choose a title. I saw no reason of it being so offensive.


YOU have absolutely no reason to be sorry for anything and no reason to apologize. Those who make everything they can into a political statement and some sort of anti rant and attempt to make everyone feel guilty are the ones who should be apologizing.

Making everyone feel guilty seems to be a normal practice today instead of respecting others views and they want to make THEIR view front and center instead of allowing anyone else to give theirs.

Your story was well received and I KNOW you owe nobody an apology in anyway

[Taltarzac725]

Yo God! Jay (http://kingsparknotebook.com/yo-god-jays-story-former-kings-park-student-lives-on-in-memoir/)

I would love to know the public school librarian's reason for banning this book? I have a Masters of Librarianship and Information Management from the University of Denver (Class of 1984) and find this quite strange.

Most libraries have copies of books like the Bible, the Koran, Paradise Lost and all kinds of others with religious themes.

Maybe this was an Elementary School Library and the librarian just thought this was too advanced for that age group? Or maybe a librarian on a power trip? That happens too but is a librarian's or some clique of librarians' choices which usually has nothing to do with wider policies, fairness, censorship, or anything else that just people following selfish interests.

[Abby10]

YOU have absolutely no reason to be sorry for anything and no reason to apologize. Those who make everything they can into a political statement and some sort of anti rant and attempt to make everyone feel guilty are the ones who should be apologizing.

Making everyone feel guilty seems to be a normal practice today instead of respecting others views and they want to make THEIR view front and center instead of allowing anyone else to give theirs.

Your story was well received and I KNOW you owe nobody an apology in anyway

I concur wholeheartedly with Rags' post. Actually, the fact that a library would ban the book concerns me even more. And by the way, Tommy, I thought the title was excellent and from your explanation sounds very appropriate. No apology needed from you on any front. Maybe those of us who believe in your friend's effort, to help others by sharing her and her son's story, can spread the word through this forum and by word of mouth to those we know who may benefit. Again, I thank you, Tommy, for starting this thread.

[Indydealmaker]

I concur wholeheartedly with Rags' post. Actually, the fact that a library would ban the book concerns me even more. And by the way, Tommy, I thought the title was excellent and from your explanation sounds very appropriate. No apology needed from you on any front. Maybe those of us who believe in your friend's effort, to help others by sharing her and her son's story, can spread the word through this forum and by word of mouth to those we know who may benefit. Again, I thank you, Tommy, for starting this thread.

There are over 48,000 members of TOTV. If each emailed this story to ten friends who then forwarded the story on to ten friends, nearly 5 million people would get to share this heartwarming message.

[Taltarzac725]

Yo God! Jay's Story- June Capossela Kempf. Google it.

Still wonder what happened with that librarian? I know there are lousy librarians. There are bad eggs in every profession. June Kempf might just have run into one.

[Taltarzac725]

I put it on my Facebook page. Hope some people check it out.

It just might be that the book did not please the librarian asked to look at it by the author or whoever suggested it.

It looks like a very worthwhile read so I have no idea why any competent and fair librarian would ban it?

[Tom Hannon]

Nothing has happened...YET. I intend to,speak to this Librarian in a few days . I And yes, Indy. Sometime controversy can work to an advantage. I suggested she contact one of the television stations. It is really a fine book and would be helpful for those going through the same ordeal June went through.

[Taltarzac725]

Nothing has happened...YET. I intend to,speak to this Librarian in a few days . I And yes, Indy. Sometime controversy can work to an advantage. I suggested she contact one of the television stations. It is really a fine book and would be helpful for those going through the same ordeal June went through.

I hope you will keep us informed? It just sounds like some librarian throwing his or her weight around basically because she/he can.

I got a SLAPP (strategic lawsuit against public participation) lawsuit threat from the Library General Counsel in Palm Harbor, Florida on 3-2-2004 basically because I pointed out to anyone who would listen that the Palm Harbor Library did not have a link to the Florida Victim Services Directory. The Palm Harbor Library Director Gene Coppola at that time was also the Palm Harbor Chamber of Commerce Chairman. Basically, he did not like me pointed out that he was lying about this link. Sometimes these things are political and or personal feuds of some kind and have nothing to do with sound librarianship. The Chairman of the Board of the Palm Harbor Chamber of Commerce is also a powerful position. I could not wait to move to the Villages out of Palm Harbor in 2005 because of the headache this fight caused me and my parents.

You might be facing a similar situation where some librarian just has a position of power and enjoys using it. Some librarians have a lot of political clout because of the unique circumstances of their environment like Coppola and Palm Harbor. It does not make their decisions right nor fair.

[Rags123]

19 reviews on Amazon....17 at 5 stars....2 at 4 stars.

I hope I can share one of the short reviews....

"Loved This book you will not be disappointed!!!
Very well written. Heart warming. A page turner that I read in one night. I could not put it down.
I finished it at 6am and then prayed for All my blessings and for what strength it must have taken June to write this.
There must have been so many tears shed telling this TRUE story.
What a true Blessing.
Jay is smiling right now knowing his story was told by his very strong MOM.
Licrafty5
Judy

http://www.amazon.com/Jays-Story-June-Capossela-Kempf/product-reviews/1628820446/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I hope the mention of praying does not offend anyone

[Taltarzac725]

19 reviews on Amazon....17 at 5 stars....2 at 4 stars.

I hope I can share one of the short reviews....

"Loved This book you will not be disappointed!!!
Very well written. Heart warming. A page turner that I read in one night. I could not put it down.
I finished it at 6am and then prayed for All my blessings and for what strength it must have taken June to write this.
There must have been so many tears shed telling this TRUE story.
What a true Blessing.
Jay is smiling right now knowing his story was told by his very strong MOM.
Licrafty5
Judy

http://www.amazon.com/Jays-Story-June-Capossela-Kempf/product-reviews/1628820446/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I hope the mention of praying does not offend anyone

It looks like a good book. I put it on my Facebook page. I cannot see how anyone could be offended by someone praying?

There are legitimate cases of separation of church and state but this certainly does not sound like one of them. Maybe if some librarian said he would only allow Protestant prayer meetings in his public library setting during regular working hours. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen but a book that has prayers in it? You would find hundreds of these in almost any public library in the US.

[Rags123]

It looks like a good book. I put it on my Facebook page. I cannot see how anyone could be offended by someone praying?

There are legitimate cases of separation of church and state but this certainly does not sound like one of them. Maybe if some librarian said he would only allow Protestant prayer meetings in his public library setting during regular working hours. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen but a book that has prayers in it? You would find hundreds of these in almost any public library in the US.

I was struck by the moral outrage expressed on here without knowing the content of the book...just the mention of God.

Wouldn't you love to peruse the library for all those words in titles that are not as offensive as God...

[Abby10]

Great ideas, Indy and Tal - using e-mail and Facebook to spread the word about this book.

[Tom Hannon]

Positive reaction began slowly, but WOW has the tide changed. Thanks for all the support.

June would be happy to know the whole world isn't against her.

[eweissenbach]

Positive reaction began slowly, but WOW has the tide changed. Thanks for all the support.

June would be happy to know the whole world isn't against her.

I would hope you didn't interpret my posts as being negative toward the book, the author, or you, because that was not my intent. My initial response was in the form of a question posed to a poster, and was meant to clarify his/her statement and advance the discussion. I am not in any way opposed to the book being in a school library, in fact it should be. I would perhaps question it being used as a text or a required reading in a public school, but not even sure of that stance without reading it, which I have not. I am still not sure what the nature of the objection by the school was and would not pretend to make a judgment without a complete understanding of the situation. As I stated, my kids all graduated from Christian sponsored private schools, where religious books of all kinds were studied and that was perfectly agreeable to me. In fact they also were required to study about other religions in order to be more informed about the world, and that too was fine with me. I have tried to educate myself on other religions as an adult in order to try and make sense of their actions, since I got no education on that as a youngster. Some would have this forum be about nothing but agreement in total, which is not only not realistic, but devoid of intelligent reasoning. I occasionally take advocate positions, not out of disagreement, but in an effort to deepen the discussion, and I may be oft understood as a result. I am of the opinion that seeing and discussing different points of view without vitriol is an effective way of either forming informed opinions, or cementing your previously held opinions. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Taltarzac725]

I would hope you didn't interpret my posts as being negative toward the book, the author, or you, because that was not my intent. My initial response was in the form of a question posed to a poster, and was meant to clarify his/her statement and advance the discussion. I am not in any way opposed to the book being in a school library, in fact it should be. I would perhaps question it being used as a text or a required reading in a public school, but not even sure of that stance without reading it, which I have not. I am still not sure what the nature of the objection by the school was and would not pretend to make a judgment without a complete understanding of the situation. As I stated, my kids all graduated from Christian sponsored private schools, where religious books of all kinds were studied and that was perfectly agreeable to me. In fact they also were required to study about other religions in order to be more informed about the world, and that too was fine with me. I have tried to educate myself on other religions as an adult in order to try and make sense of their actions, since I got no education on that as a youngster. Some would have this forum be about nothing but agreement in total, which is not only not realistic, but devoid of intelligent reasoning. I occasionally take advocate positions, not out of disagreement, but in an effort to deepen the discussion, and I may be oft understood as a result. I am of the opinion that seeing and discussing different points of view without vitriol is an effective way of either forming informed opinions, or cementing your previously held opinions. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I like this input. We do need to know more about the situation of why this book was denied being cataloged, etc., for whatever library is in question. It does not seem clear if this is a public, school, or some other library. It does cost money to catalog and process a book for circulation.

[coralway]

"Oh" (I caught that.), I still say one religion should not stand out over others in a tax supported education. I also think the "political correctness" excuse gets a bad rap. Seems whenever an old, outdated or biased, belief draws attention, people like to play the politically incorrect card. There is nothing incorrect about treating all people fairly and equally.



This ............

[eweissenbach]

I weNt back and read every post on this thread yet again to see if I could ascertain anything that would engender outrage, and I couldn't. Every opposing viewpoint was articulated respectfully and tactfully. The only outrage I could see came from posters who read something that didn't fit their view, and reacted to that, rather than debate the point dispassionately. This reminds me of people who will only watch MSNBC or Fox News and then coming away with a mindset that anything outside that viewpoint is wrong and dangerous. If you can't entertain views that differ from your own and really analyze the points where you agree or disagree, without demonizing the person or the view you are really leading a very sheltered and narrow minded existence.

[Mikeod]

I weNt back and read every post on this thread yet again to see if I could ascertain anything that would engender outrage, and I couldn't. Every opposing viewpoint was articulated respectfully and tactfully. The only outrage I could see came from posters who read something that didn't fit their view, and reacted to that, rather than debate the point dispassionately. This reminds me of people who will only watch MSNBC or Fox News and then coming away with a mindset that anything outside that viewpoint is wrong and dangerous. If you can't entertain views that differ from your own and really analyze the points where you agree or disagree, without demonizing the person or the view you are really leading a very sheltered and narrow minded existence.

Or, how to disagree without being disagreeable?

[casita37]

My goodness...didn't realize my post would cause a stir, as did a few others. Just to be clear, I haven't read the book, don't have a problem with it, sounds like it may well be a very helpful text for those suffering. My issue is, always has been, and will continue to be, that I don't want to pay for "spreading the word" of someone else's beliefs. If this book does not do that, then I apologize. If it does....I don't! My point, God belongs in the home (if your choose), in the church, but NOT in the PUBLIC schools. Simple.

[villagerjack]

Interesting that some of folks who gladly accept some of the services and benefits of various religious groups are some of the same folks who protest because it is not in their "right setting". and the ones who do the most protesting seem to do the least for their fellow man I site the contributions made by Catholic without regard to religion.,

Do you know the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today

NEXT UP...ATHIESTS AND MUSLIMS.THE FLOORI IS YOURS

[casita37]

Good for them! Great, wonderful.....I support private religious schools, it that is your wish. I believe in the right of all people to practice what they believe, including athiest and Muslims.

Now, before someone gets goofy, and suggests I believe in terrorism...let me just say, be real!

[Rags123]

NOBODY that I am aware of....NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON is advocating or has ever advocates in this forum or for that part anywhere I have ever even heard of....TEACHING ANY RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

That is what is not allowed by our constitution...the teaching of or advocating as a country a single religion AND IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

If the mention of the word GOD, as Tom was very clear about was the reason for the book being banned is reason enough to ban the book, then we need to really scan the libraries for any book that mentions ANY RELIGION IN ANY WAY

Those books that mention Martin Luther, Allah, etc...have go to go.

I really feel those that are in opposition here, KNOW IN THEIR HEART that no religion is being taught. The only person offended by the mention of or the use of the word GOD would be an atheist, and that person should also have a lot of things that offend him...the word PRAYER....any Thanksgiving toast !!!

I have grown tired of the "make them feel guilty".. rhetoric.

I believe in God....I am proud of it....I, like just about everyone does not want a religion taught in public schools, but I do not like people who jump on something like this just to make everyone uncomfortable or guilty.

My biggest problem on this thread was that Tom was very clear....the name in the title was the REASON for it being banned, but people had to jump on their soap boxes and go for the guilt trip thing. NOBODY even asked a question about the book and just continued to lecture us, who I assume are put into a catagory of those who just do not get it.

My guilt is used up I am afraid. You cannot make me feel guilty any longer.

[eweissenbach]

Interesting that some of folks who gladly accept some of the services and benefits of various religious groups are some of the same folks who protest because it is not in their "right setting". and the ones who do the most protesting seem to do the least for their fellow man I site the contributions made by Catholic without regard to religion.,

Do you know the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today

NEXT UP...ATHIESTS AND MUSLIMS.THE FLOORI IS YOURS

WOW! So anyone that disagrees with the totality of your world view is either Athiest or Muslim? Now there is tolerance for you.

[Rags123]

WOW! So anyone that disagrees with the totality of your world view is either Athiest or Muslim? Now there is tolerance for you.

PLEASE show where VILLAGERJACK said anything close to what you accuse him of ????????

He said that two other groups now had the floor and you took it to mean something completely different. Why would anyone ask a question in that manner ?

I cannot imagine anyone in America...ANYONE who does not know we do not or should not teach religion in our public schools. I know of nobody who advocates that in anyway.

The thread was about a book banned for the name GOD in the title. It was very clear in the first post, and away you guys go with these little questions that advocate and invite argument.

We all know the law and the constitution...no need to lecture.

[casita37]

Rags123,
You really don't know anyone who wants religion in public school.....may I introduce you to a few of my neighbors???

[eweissenbach]

Two of my kids graduated from Catholic high school which I paid for in its entirety since I was not Catholic, in addition to gladly paying my fair share for public education through my income and property taxes. The diocese which included their school (Kansas City / St. Joseph - look it up)has paid millions of dollars to settle lawsuits as the result of priests molesting children. The Bishop has been indicted for covering up a number of these molestations that he had knowledge of, and is currently under investigation by the Vatican while refusing to resign. So please know that your righteous indignation concerning the obvious good done by The Church is somewhat tainted by some very reprehensible acts.

[dbussone]

Two of my kids graduated from Catholic high school which I paid for in its entirety since I was not Catholic, in addition to gladly paying my fair share for public education through my income and property taxes. The diocese which included their school (Kansas City / St. Joseph - look it up)has paid millions of dollars to settle lawsuits as the result of priests molesting children. The Bishop has been indicted for covering up a number of these molestations that he had knowledge of, and is currently under investigation by the Vatican while refusing to resign. So please know that your righteous indignation concerning the obvious good done by The Church is somewhat tainted by some very reprehensible acts.

I apologize for having signed off this thread. Having said that I must point out that this is the most biased, uncalled for, and completely off topic post. I thought you proposed decent and reasonable, calm discussions. This ain't it.

[Rags123]

Rags123,
You really don't know anyone who wants religion in public school.....may I introduce you to a few of my neighbors???

No thanks.

Listen, a poster came on here upset because a book was banned simply because of the name GOD in the title. He made that very clear at the outset.

Immediately, folks are lecturing, standing on their pedestals telling everyone about what we already know.

I do not know your neighbors and if they actually want religion TAUGHT in public schools, that would be a first for me to hear. I have not even heard hard core right wing preachers suggest anything close to that.

Just tired of the lectures...just tired of trying to make people feel guilty...just tired of it.

[eweissenbach]

No thanks.

Listen, a poster came on here upset because a book was banned simply because of the name GOD in the title. He made that very clear at the outset.

Immediately, folks are lecturing, standing on their pedestals telling everyone about what we already know.

I do not know your neighbors and if they actually want religion TAUGHT in public schools, that would be a first for me to hear. I have not even heard hard core right wing preachers suggest anything close to that.

Just tired of the lectures...just tired of trying to make people feel guilty...just tired of it.
If you are tired of lectures you might consider not lecturing.

[Rags123]

Two of my kids graduated from Catholic high school which I paid for in its entirety since I was not Catholic, in addition to gladly paying my fair share for public education through my income and property taxes. The diocese which included their school (Kansas City / St. Joseph - look it up)has paid millions of dollars to settle lawsuits as the result of priests molesting children. The Bishop has been indicted for covering up a number of these molestations that he had knowledge of, and is currently under investigation by the Vatican while refusing to resign. So please know that your righteous indignation concerning the obvious good done by The Church is somewhat tainted by some very reprehensible acts.

TAINTED ?

What are you trying to do ? Nobody claimed any superiority or perfection....why in the world would someone bring something up like to simply "taint" any other good works. Who is it that you want to feel guilty ?
And for what ?

These statements you make are so completely unrelated to anything....your comments are really uncalled for.

This is the kind of rhetoric that is bad....

"oh, you say this about this issue.....that must mean you are a (fill in the blank)"

Oh, you believe this...that means you (fill in the blank)

[eweissenbach]

I apologize for having signed off this thread. Having said that I must point out that this is the most biased, uncalled for, and completely off topic post. I thought you proposed decent and reasonable, calm discussions. This ain't it.
Would you care to point out where it is biased or not factual?

[dbussone]

TAINTED ?

What are you trying to do ? Nobody claimed any superiority or perfection....why in the world would someone bring something up like to simply "taint" any other good works. Who is it that you want to feel guilty ?
And for what ?

These statements you make are so completely unrelated to anything....your comments are really uncalled for.

This is the kind of rhetoric that is bad....

"oh, you say this about this issue.....that must mean you are a (fill in the blank)"

Oh, you believe this...that means you (fill in the blank)

Rags - don't sweat it. He has shown his true colors. I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[dbussone]

Would you care to point out where it is biased or not factual?

To repeat, it's off point and exhibits few of the characteristics you espouse in debate.

[Rags123]

If you are tired of lectures you might consider not lecturing.

I spoke to and only about Toms original post. I lectured nobody at all. I simply KNOW about religion in public schools and do not need to hear it from anyone else....I know of nobody who advocates whatever it is that you are preaching on....your beliefs are your beliefs.....nobody on here is disagreeing but you keep trying to make them disagreeable.

Has any poster at any time ever said they advocate religion in public schools ? Has any poster at any time ever said they did not understand what the constitution says ?

[Rags123]

Rags - don't sweat it. He has shown his true colors. I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Thanks and same to you.

[eweissenbach]

Rags - don't sweat it. He has shown his true colors. I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

And precisely what are his "true colors"? I will have a wonderful Thanksgiving, thanks.

[dbussone]

And precisely what are his "true colors"? I will have a wonderful Thanksgiving, thanks.

I truly truly hope you do have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and a Merry Christmas. Best wishes for your continuing health and success during 2015.

[villagerjack]

WOW! So anyone that disagrees with the totality of your world view is either Athiest or Muslim? Now there is tolerance for you.


That is NOT what I said and you know it. It is also not my world but the world we live in. The contributions made by various religions are enormous in thisCountry and I am tired of seeing them being attacked by those intolerants who are offended with the simple word of GOD. It is usually from those who contribute little or nothing attacking those who contribute the most. That being said, let the attackers list the contributions of what ever they represent. You can start Eweissenbach .Have you ever seen a Muslim or Athiest hospital? I heard of Catholic Relief Services and Catholic Charities., but not Muslim Relief Services or Athiest Charities.

I am suggesting that Of attacking those that make enormous contributions, why not join in their efforts instead of tearing them down at every opportunity.

[eweissenbach]

I truly truly hope you do have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and a Merry Christmas. Best wishes for your continuing health and success during 2015.

And also with you.

[eweissenbach]

Interesting that some of folks who gladly accept some of the services and benefits of various religious groups are some of the same folks who protest because it is not in their "right setting". and the ones who do the most protesting seem to do the least for their fellow man I site the contributions made by Catholic without regard to religion.,

Do you know the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today

NEXT UP...ATHIESTS AND MUSLIMS.THE FLOORI IS YOURS

WOW! So anyone that disagrees with the totality of your world view is either Athiest or Muslim? Now there is tolerance for you.

That is NOT what I said and you know it.

If that is not what you said how is one to interpret the last sentence, in all caps for emphasis, of your original post. I am, by the way not an Athiest OR Muslim and I volunteer at a local hospital, a food pantry, and contribute to my church and several charities.

[villagerjack]

Two of my kids graduated from Catholic high school which I paid for in its entirety since I was not Catholic, in addition to gladly paying my fair share for public education through my income and property taxes. The diocese which included their school (Kansas City / St. Joseph - look it up)has paid millions of dollars to settle lawsuits as the result of priests molesting children. The Bishop has been indicted for covering up a number of these molestations that he had knowledge of, and is currently under investigation by the Vatican while refusing to resign. So please know that your righteous indignation concerning the obvious good done by The Church is somewhat tainted by some very reprehensible acts.

Does the small percentage of priests who engaged in that behavior eliminate all the good works you want to ignore? Your post lacks any perspective.
Excerpts of an article written by non-Catholic Sam Miller- - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman:

"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?


But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.


Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church, 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed.


Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic problem.


A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.


The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a small number of wayward priests that have probably been totally weeded out by now.


Walk with your shoulders high and your head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States .