Information About John McCain

[Guest]

Facts on John McCain

It's far too nice to be cooped up inside researching facts on John McCain, particularly because someone else already did the work. Here's MoveOn's well researched list of 10 things you don't know about John McCain. I have it on good authority they don't mind my lifting it at all (scroll down for sources):

1. John McCain voted against establishing a national holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Now he says his position has "evolved," yet he's continued to oppose key civil rights laws.1

2. According to Bloomberg News, McCain is more hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China. Conservative columnist Pat Buchanan says McCain "will make Cheney look like Gandhi."2

3. His reputation is built on his opposition to torture, but McCain voted against a bill to ban waterboarding, and then applauded President Bush for vetoing that ban.3

4. McCain opposes a woman's right to choose. He said, "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."4

5. The Children's Defense Fund rated McCain as the worst senator in Congress for children. He voted against the children's health care bill last year, then defended Bush's veto of the bill.5

6. He's one of the richest people in a Senate filled with millionaires. The Associated Press reports he and his wife own at least eight homes! Yet McCain says the solution to the housing crisis is for people facing foreclosure to get a "second job" and skip their vacations.6

7. Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless to be commander in chief. One Republican senator said: "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He's erratic. He's hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."7

8. McCain talks a lot about taking on special interests, but his campaign manager and top advisers are actually lobbyists. The government watchdog group Public Citizen says McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates.8

9. McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." McCain sought the political support of right-wing preacher John Hagee, who believes Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for gay rights and called the Catholic Church "the Antichrist" and a "false cult."9

10. He positions himself as pro-environment, but he scored a 0—yes, zero—from the League of Conservation Voters last year.10

Sources:
1. "The Complicated History of John McCain and MLK Day," ABC News, April 3, 2008 http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3543&id=12407-2268211-s7hFcS&t=233
"McCain Facts," ColorOfChange.org, April 4, 2008 http://colorofchange.org/mccain_facts/
2. "McCain More Hawkish Than Bush on Russia, China, Iraq," Bloomberg News, March 12, 2008 http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3552&id=12407-2268211-s7hFcS&t=234
"Buchanan: John McCain 'Will Make Cheney Look Like Gandhi,'" ThinkProgress, February 6, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/06/buchanan-gandhi-mccain/
3. "McCain Sides With Bush On Torture Again, Supports Veto Of Anti-Waterboarding Bill," ThinkProgress, February 20, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mccain-torture-veto/
4. "McCain says Roe v. Wade should be overturned," MSNBC, February 18, 2007 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17222147/
5. "2007 Children's Defense Fund Action Council® Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard," February 2008 http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?pagename=act_learn_scorecard2007
"McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion," CNN, October 3, 2007 http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/mccain.interview/
6. "Beer Executive Could Be Next First Lady," Associated Press, April 3, 2008 http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3545&id=12407-2268211-s7hFcS&t=236
"McCain Says Bank Bailout Should End `Systemic Risk,'" Bloomberg News, March 25, 2008 http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3551&id=12407-2268211-s7hFcS&t=237
7. "Will McCain's Temper Be a Liability?," Associated Press, February 16, 2008 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4301022
"Famed McCain temper is tamed," Boston Globe, January 27, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3547&id=12407-2268211-s7hFcS&t=238 8.
"Black Claims McCain's Campaign Is Above Lobbyist Influence: 'I Don't Know What The Criticism Is,'" ThinkProgress, April 2, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/02/mccain-black-lobbyist/
"McCain's Lobbyist Friends Rally 'Round Their Man," ABC News, January 29, 2008 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251
9. "McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam," Mother Jones Magazine, March 12, 2008 http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3519&id=12407-2268211-s7hFcS&t=239
"Will McCain Specifically 'Repudiate' Hagee's Anti-Gay Comments?," ThinkProgress, March 12, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/12/mccain-hagee-anti-gay/
"McCain 'Very Honored' By Support Of Pastor Preaching 'End-Time Confrontation With Iran,'" ThinkProgress, February 28, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/28/hagee-mccain-endorsement/
10. "John McCain Gets a Zero Rating for His Environmental Record," Sierra Club, February 28, 2008 http://www.alternet.org/blogs/environment/77913/

[Guest]

Thank you for posting this. Most of it was not a surprise to me (and I did check the links to see how distorted things some of the comments were -- didn't seem to be much). I didn't know how rich he was nor that he had been ranked zero by the League of Conservation Voters.

Truth is, I don't care that he's rich. I do care how hawkish he is. I do care that he is anti choice. I really don't know enough to comment about his stand on children, yet. Voting against the children's health bill is not enough to go on. I will give him credit for admitting he was wrong and that he has "evolved" since voting against a MLK holiday.

I have heard about his hot temper many times and it does concern me. However, I'll put as much stock in a fellow Republican making negative comments about McCain being president as I do about the negative comments about Obama being a Muslim -- both are based on innuendo and should be taken as such.

I do care that he uses lobbyists for fund raising. I do care that he is getting closer and closer to the far right fundamentalists because that affects me as a woman and, more importantly, will affect my daughter's right to choose (whether that choice be for a child or a job or where to live).

So, thank you. There are some very good, important points made in this list. Hopefully, people will think long and hard before just arbitrarily dismissing it.

[Guest]

Once again the Dancer and the Witch strike with their incredibly informed perspective on the republican candidate. Give the politics a break and go outside and enjoy the sunshine that you moved to TV to get. Is there any topic that you two don't have an opinion on?

[Guest]

It is a list of verified facts about John McCain that most people aren't aware of, not an opinion.

[Guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

The Wikipedia article has a lot of information on John McCain. Think that Wikipedia is a good source of information on current events even if it is not that "scholarly" when compared with encyclopedias and other reference sources for other subjects.

[Guest]

It appears that if a Republican cannot refute facts, they just say "la-de-da, go outside and play. Let's pretend this isn't real". Well, the facts about McCain are real and they're not going away. In fact, fasten your seatbelts, you're in for a bumpy ride. This is just the beginning.

[Guest]

Getting your McCain information from moveon.org would be like getting Obama information from Mark Levine. They are almost as far left as you can go before falling off the edge.

[Guest]

Hmmmmmnnnnnn....let's see here should one conclude that if the facts on all the candidates were laid out on a spread sheet the most viable candidate would be obvious to all?

I fear not. The partisan polarity has become so intense, it just doesn't seem to matter what is presented about the other.

I recall Nancy Pelosi stating in an interview before she became Speaker when asked her views on select issues....she said her position was easy....if it was put forth by a Republican she was against it....cackle cackle!!!!!! Very objective, Uh-huh!

BTK

[Guest]

Chelsea - what isn't real is your "idol" - Mr. Obama. Like I said the other day when your emotions were running wild, just list the accomplishments of Obama since he has held federal office. Even if it's a short list give us something to get our arms around. He has been talking the talk but definitely "not walked the walk". By the way, what makes you think I'm a republican?

[Guest]

Just so you can see what's in the public domain, here is more about how they might tax your retirement income. And wikipedia, thinkprogress and moveon.org were not the source of this great information about Nancy Pelosi. But the congressional record. So please everyone, continue to believe everything you read. The media is so biased "and in both directions" just depends on what paper you pick up or radio you turn on, that to quote any of it as fact just defines your lack of knowledge. It's like hearing a campaign ad and believing it has to be factual.

Windfall Tax on Retirement Income

Adding a tax to your retirement is simply another way of saying to the American people, you're so darn stupid that we're going to keep doing this until we drain every cent from you. That's what the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is saying. Read below...............

Nancy Pelosi wants a Windfall Tax on Retirement Income. In other words tax what you have made by investing toward your retirement. This woman is a nut case! You aren't going to believe this.

Madam speaker Nancy Pelosi wants to put a Windfall Tax on all stock market profits (incl uding Retirement fund, 401K and Mutual Funds! Alas, it is true - all to help the 20 Million Illegal Immigrants and other unemployed Minorities!

This woman is frightening.
She quotes..." We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income, (didn't Karl Marx say like this first?), in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest." And you can look this one up in the congressional record.

When asked how these new tax dollars would be spent, she replied:
"We need to raise the standard of living of our poor, unemployed and minorities. For example, we have an estimated 20 million illegal immigrants in our country who need our help along with millions of unemployed minorities. Stock market windfall profits taxes could go a long way to guarantee these people the standard of living they would like to have as 'Americans'." (Read that quote again and again and let it sink in. Lower your retirement income, give it to others who have not worked as you have for it. And again it's from the congressional record.

[Guest]

Irish Rover, first, Mr. Obama is not my idol. I haven't had an "idol" since I was 8 and I think it was Frankie Avalon. Second, Mr. Obama will speak for himself shortly, and he does it much more eloquently than I ever could. Third, what makes you think I'm a Democrate? ;D

[Guest]

Chelsea - You speak to my point - Obama is all talk. He is eloquent but totally with out substance and that is why I ask what has he done since he has gone to Washington that qualifies him he to be PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. I'll make it easy on you - just name three things. I assumed from your blind loyalty to to a political figure with no substance that you were a democrat(e).
I won't continue on this thread because I'm sure it's boring the other folks reading it as much as it's boring me. Good luck in November.

[Guest]

Irish Rover, McCain may be all action without knowledge or thought. We're just getting rid of that. Blindly loyal? Only to my husband. (who has always been a steadfast republican, by the way, but doubt it this time around.) But on one thing we can agree. This is a yawn. Good Luck to you too in November. ;)

And if McCain wins -- Good Luck to us all.

[Guest]

Getting your McCain information from moveon.org would be like getting Obama information from Mark Levine. They are almost as far left as you can go before falling off the edge.

I2ridehd, I commend the fact you're looking at the sources of info, but please take a closer look at the sources in this case - its not Moveon, who just gathered the info and presented it, the sources are ABC news, The Sierra Club, Childrens Defense Fund Action Council, etc.

[Guest]

Give it a rest!!!!!!!!!religion (do your own thing), politics (take it to the street, not here), sex (hmm don't know what to do with this one).

Lets keep this neighborly, after all, we all have our baggage we brought with us and are not about to change. Give it a rest!!! :) :)

[Guest]

Forgot to add............Muncle take over please.... ;) ;)

[Guest]

Facts on John McCain

It's far too nice to be cooped up inside researching facts on John McCain, particularly because someone else already did the work. Here's MoveOn's well researched list of 10 things you don't know about John McCain. I have it on good authority they don't mind my lifting it at all (scroll down for sources):

1. John McCain voted against establishing a national holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Now he says his position has "evolved," yet he's continued to oppose key civil rights laws.1

2. According to Bloomberg News, McCain is more hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China. Conservative columnist Pat Buchanan says McCain "will make Cheney look like Gandhi."2

3. His reputation is built on his opposition to torture, but McCain voted against a bill to ban waterboarding, and then applauded President Bush for vetoing that ban.3

4. McCain opposes a woman's right to choose. He said, "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."4

5. The Children's Defense Fund rated McCain as the worst senator in Congress for children. He voted against the children's health care bill last year, then defended Bush's veto of the bill.5

6. He's one of the richest people in a Senate filled with millionaires. The Associated Press reports he and his wife own at least eight homes! Yet McCain says the solution to the housing crisis is for people facing foreclosure to get a "second job" and skip their vacations.6

7. Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless to be commander in chief. One Republican senator said: "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He's erratic. He's hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."7

8. McCain talks a lot about taking on special interests, but his campaign manager and top advisers are actually lobbyists. The government watchdog group Public Citizen says McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates.8

9. McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." McCain sought the political support of right-wing preacher John Hagee, who believes Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for gay rights and called the Catholic Church "the Antichrist" and a "false cult."9

10. He positions himself as pro-environment, but he scored a 0—yes, zero—from the League of Conservation Voters last year.10

Lil Dancer...

Thanks for the info.* Sounds like McCain is more worth voting for than I originally thought.

Assuming your sources are correct, I assume you posted these items to be negative toward McCain.* If so, does this mean...

1.* You are against people having enough moral courage to change their mind if they are initially wrong?

2.* You are against strong national defense?

3.* You are against using the tools we need to create a semblance of an even playing field when dealing with our enemies?

4.* You are in favor of killing innocent human life? Key word "innocent".* That sounds fairly wicked.* The right to choose to kill is next to Godliness in your mind, I suppose?* Don't women already have the right to choose to become pregnant or not in this country, unlike the religio-social codes of Islamic nations?

The rest I'm not familiar with, but on the surface...

5. Not familiar with that bill.* But I am very aware that socialist, invasive legislation is often couched in very motherhood and apple pie-sounding titles.

6.* Sounds like an Al Gore - Mr. Global Warming - carbon credits scenario.

7.* Do you prefer the dangerous Chamberlinian appeasment and placating promised by Obama to the experienced desiciveness of McCain?* Silly question.* Of course you do.

8.* Are you suggesting Obama has no paid lobbiests on his staff?* Really?

9.* I believe events have a purpose and to ignore the possibility is blind.* Only atheists, "symbolic" church goers and other irreligious folk would have a problem with this.

10.* National priorites have to take precedence, and during the last session, when Obama voted 67% for environmental issues, there were other competing national interests that deserved greater attention:* Energy independence which is often stunted by additional environmental measures; internationally competitive economy which is often stunted by additional environmental measures.* A high score on environmentalism doesn't deserve to be THE national priority at the moment.

[Guest]

Forgot to add............Muncle take over please.... ;) ;)


No Chuck, you done good, as we used to say in the English Dept. I'm trying to stay out of the sniping as much as possible, except for the occasional sarcastic aside that I just can't resist. Those are all too frequent anyway.

[Guest]

No tag teams...you are all quite capable of stating your own opinions!!!
And Muncle I am proud of you! You are being nicer...
I think you are a McCain person, :-* :-*

[Guest]

Lil Dancer...

Thanks for the info. Sounds like McCain is more worth voting for than I originally thought.

Assuming your sources are correct, I assume you posted these items to be negative toward McCain. If so, does this mean...

1. You are against people having enough moral courage to change their mind if they are initially wrong?

2. You are against strong national defense?

3. You are against using the tools we need to create a semblance of an even playing field when dealing with our enemies?

4. You are in favor of killing human life? That sounds fairly wicked. The right to choose to kill is next to Godliness in your mind, I suppose? Don't women already have the right to choose to become pregnant or not in this country, unlike the religio-social codes of Islamic nations?

The rest I'm not familiar with, but on the surface...

5. Not familiar with that bill. But I am aware that socialist, invasive legislation is often couched in very motherhood and apple pie-sounding titles.

6. Sounds like an Al Gore - Mr. Global Warming - carbon credits scenario.

7. Do you prefer the dangerous Chamberlinian appeasment and placating promised by Obama to the experienced desiciveness of McCain? Silly question. Of course you do.

8. Are you suggesting Obama has no paid lobbiests on his staff? Really?

9. I believe events have a purpose and to ignore the possibility is blind. Only atheists, "symbolic" church goers and other irreligious folk would have a problem with this.

10. National priorites have to take precedence, and during the last session, when Obama voted 67% for environmental issues, there were other competing national interests that deserved greater attention: Energy independence which is often stunted by additional environmental measures; internationally competitive environment which is often stunted by additional environmental measures. A high score on environmentalism doesn't deserve to be THE national priority at the moment.

I'm glad you found this information helpful in determining your voting choice. The point of this post was not to bash a particular cnadidate, but to provide truthful info regarding a candidate, information which many people may not have been aware of. In the past, a number of posts have been put up (on Obama for example) which are not even close to the truth, for example calling him a Muslim. That has been de-bunked by a variety of sources. I just hate to see anyone make up their minds on a candidate based on something other than real verifiable facts, not just emotional rhetoric.

Since you were so curious about my politica views, for the record I am more liberal than many of you, and am in favor of a woman's right to choose; I do favor Civil rights laws; I do believe in global warming, and its consequences; I am in favor of going to war only if it is justifiable for our country's security (Iraq did not meet this critera); I am not a member of the religious right....We all will vote based on our values and how we perceive the candidates align with those values. But let's vote on the truth, as far as we can determine it, not a bunch of slander and lies.

[Guest]

There is no doubt that Republicans and Democrats can find all sorts of stuff about each candidate, and present the stuff is a "glass half-empty" or "glass half-full" manner. That seems to be the nature of things - find what you like about "my party's" candidate and tout it, and find what hate about "their party's" candidate and tout it.

Perhaps, if the two candidates are indeed going to be Sen.s Obama and McCain, they will be better than all of us, by debating Lincoln-Douglas style on the issues so that their positions are clear. Imagine what a change that would be - gentlemen acting like gentlemen - with no slander, name-calling, back-biting innuendos, and having to answer each other - face to face - to get clarity of position.

I hope they go through with it!

Personally, I haven't found the "perfect" candidate position-wise yet, no more than have I found the "perfect" party. To me, many of each party's platform planks are warped and filled with knotholes.

Just for the fun of it, I decided to rate myself on this "10" scale:

1. Am glad for another holiday, especially in winter. For it!
2. Hawks are great - they fly high and peaceful most of the time, and only come at you talon-first when hungry or you've attacked them. I like them around me.
3. When it's our troops' lives at stake versus gentility to a harm-giver - gentility takes second seat. See nothing essentially wrong with it as circumstances must be considered.
4. Democrats say its okay to kill an unborn child, but not a convicted killer - Republicans believe the opposite. To me BOTH parties are hypocritical.
5. Writing legislation and giving it a title which makes someone a bum if s/he didn't buy it is a rotten practice. It doesn't matter if the bill is the "Childrens Health" Act, the "Dream" Act, or the "Patriot" Act. The praising or condemning of any bill requires that the ENTIRE bill is read and its effects quantified - that's the only way to make an intelligent (versus ignorant) opinion of the contents and the subsequent actions of those who vote pro or con. Since I haven't read the "Childrens Health" Act and done any quantification - no opinion!
6. I haven't seen a candidate in my lifetime who wasn't a multi-millionaire. Maybe how they got that way has something to do with their opinion about personal finance. Not an issue.
7. Most of the Republican senators have never commanded anything, much less a military force. I know a lot of folks who were/are hotheads, but were/are great commanders of troops. I prefer a Commander-in-Chief who knows what being a "Commander" entails.
8. Would love for someone to define "lobbyist" in this context. That could describe darned near every person within the DC Beltway who is not a government employee! Not a problem!
9. A person's religious convictions - and their advisors - is a matter of personal choice. Don't see this being an issue regarding either Sen. McCain or Sen. Obama.
10. See #5 above - same holds true for "conservation" legislation.

So, if I were a candidate, I would have some folk going "yippee" on some of the issues, and "hang him high" on others. Sorta like what's going on now with both of the Senators leading their parties at this time.....

[Guest]

In the past, a number of posts have been put up (on Obama for example) which are not even close to the truth, for example calling him a Muslim.*
There are many shades of grey between being religion X and not being or disavowing religion X.* I agree Mr. Obama does not declare himself a Muslim and is not a registered practicing Muslim (if Muslims indeed register :dontknow:).* However, I have no doubt that he is sympathetic to that religion and has many close friends and relatives who are practicing Muslims.* Not that he is required to, but I think it is true that he never disavowed that religion.* Yes, he claims to have NEVER been a Muslim.* But the facts debunk that as well.*

Debunking that he is not now a Muslim compared to never having been or not presently having warm hearted sympathies and/or latent allegience are two very different things.

Religious sympathies are very important (to me) if one is sympathetic to the world religion which accounts for 99% of terrorist acts in the world, where 5% of the 1 billion claimed adherants (that would be about 50,000,000) have "radical" jihadist tendencies, beliefs and practice, and the other 95% are really "unknown" quantities becasue of the Islamic teaching of Taqiyya (تقيّة) the mostly Shi'a principle that one is allowed to hide one's true beliefs in certain circumstances.

[Guest]

I am in favor of going to war only if it is justifiable for our country's security (Iraq did not meet this critera);
I'm closer to you on this topic than I care to publicly admit.* While I think we should have done what we did in Iraq at the beginning (get Saddam out - get the real or suspected WMD out), we should have claimed victory when the "Mission Accomplished" sign went up and gotten out 2 years ago and used our resources to seal our borders, bolster homeland security, and become more energy independent.*

I have this gnawing feeling that once we gain a semblance of "democracy" in Iraq, or in any other Islamic country, after our military influence recedes they will practice "democracy" all right - one time - to vote themselves a wahabbiesque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi* government similar to Iran's "Republic":

"The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of* Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic* justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic* calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji'* al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni."* http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-1.html*

"Qur'anic justice" is nothing that 99% of the men, women, or children in this nation would want to endure...especially women. Although I wouldn't be surprised if liberal feminists started wearing burka's as a fashion statement.* It is confusing to me why liberal women in this nation, or any proponent of women's rights, would defend the Islamic faith and practice in favor of intolerant and repressive Islamic teaching that brings women's rights back into the stone age.

I couldn't agree more that there is no perfect candidate.* There are things about each candidate that are good and not good for this nation.* We have to prioritize which ones and go with the qualities that screw us up the least.* I would love to combine the charisma, "hope" and elocution of Obama with the experience, wisdom, courage and patriotism of McCain as to style.* As to policy substance, that would take a book.

[Guest]

This is a video Muncle and Mucci made last night between beers, dedicated to all the wonderful demicrats out thar...* we beg ya...* get 'er done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mc3GQmGGms

[Guest]

1rnfl GF, that is sooooo funny! Ain't it the truth! Great post. :bigthumbsup:

[Guest]

Actually, after reading this list I feel better about voting for Sen. McCain. I never thought I would say it but, thanks MoveOn.com!

[Guest]

Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft.

His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat.

Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it."

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

After being drug from the lake, a mob gathered around McCain, spit on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing. He was bayoneted in his left foot and his shoulder crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

When the communist learned that McCain's father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific, he was rushed to Gai Lam military hospital (U.S. government documents), a medical facility normally unavailable for U.S. POWs.

The communist Vietnamese figured, because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, that he was of royalty or the governing circle. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and collaborations with the enemy by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.

McCain has sprouted a halo and wings to become America's POW-hero presidential candidate.

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain

[Guest]

McCain was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No. 11 of "The Plantation" into the hands of two other U.S. POWs, Air Force majors George "Bud" Day and Norris Overly. They helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself. --Faith of My Fathers by John McCain. McCain signed a confession and declared himself a "black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate." This statement and other interviews he gave to the Communist press were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the antiwar movement. McCain has the Silver Star, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service gongs. On a purely medal count basis, he outweighs Audie Murphy and John Glenn, who both for years repeatedly performed extraordinary deeds on the ground or in the air against an armed enemy. The U.S. Navy says two eyewitnesses are required for any award of heroism. But for the valor awards McCain received, there are no eyewitnesses, less himself and his captors. And they're not talking. McCain refused an early release. An act of valor? Three former POWs stated he was ordered to turn it down by his U.S. POW commander and he "just followed orders." McCain certainly doesn't appear to be a war hero by conventional standards, but rather a tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying the war hero card. None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield where he spent no more than 20 hours.
When McCain returned to the United States in 1973 after more than five years as a prisoner of war, he found his wife was a different person. Carol McCain, once a model, had been badly injured in a car wreck in 1969. The accident "left her 4 inches shorter and on crutches, and she gained a good deal of weight." Despite her injures, she had refused to allow her POW husband to be notified about her condition, fearing that such news would not be good for him while he was being held prisoner.

But, just a couple years later, McCain, while pondering a future in politics, met Cindy Hensley, an attractive 25-year-old woman from a very wealthy politically-connected Arizona family. While still married to Carol, McCain began an adulterous relationship with Cindy. He married Cindy in May 1980 -- just a month after dumping his crippled wife and securing a divorce.

[Guest]

Very interesting Junglejim. Please continue to post. :bigthumbsup:

[Guest]

In case anyone hasn't figured it out, I'm not a McCain supporter. That being said, what does his being a lousy pilot have to do with his ability to govern? Ditto not having really earned his medals. Many in Vietnam got medals they didn't earn. My ex refused a purple heart he was offered. He walked into a tree branch and cut his eye. Cute scar -- gave him character. And he did have the character to say no to the medal. McCain did suffer more. Even if he was given medical treatment not available to other POWs, he was till a POW. That does deserve some acknowledgement. Okay, he committed adultery. So have many others. It's not my style, but it's also not my business. That's between him, his wife (wives?) and his God.

I do understand JJ's post speaks to his integrity as a young man (which seemed to be lacking a bit) but, from everything I have heard about the man, he does have integrity today -- at least more than most politicians. As I said, I'm not a fan. He still scares me to no end. I won't vote for the man but I think this kind of a post is about as valid as posts calling Obama a Muslim and implying that he will hand this country over to Islamic fanatics.

[Guest]

Junglejim
Great post! You really seem to know what you are talking about. I like Chels hope you keep posting.

[Guest]

In case anyone hasn't figured it out, I'm not a McCain supporter. That being said, what does his being a lousy pilot have to do with his ability to govern? Ditto not having really earned his medals. .. . . . . .

What is interesting is when the Swift Boat guys made similar comments about Senator Kerry, those guys were slammed by the left-wing media.

[Guest]

Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft.

His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat.

Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it."

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

After being drug from the lake, a mob gathered around McCain, spit on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing. He was bayoneted in his left foot and his shoulder crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

When the communist learned that McCain's father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific, he was rushed to Gai Lam military hospital (U.S. government documents), a medical facility normally unavailable for U.S. POWs.

The communist Vietnamese figured, because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, that he was of royalty or the governing circle. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and collaborations with the enemy by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.

McCain has sprouted a halo and wings to become America's POW-hero presidential candidate.

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain


Just another Bush, or should I say another McDummy!

[Guest]

You go Chels and Junglejim!!! :agree:

[Guest]

You all should get jobs with NBC, FOX, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, or any other, for profit, spin arm of propaganda. You all sound like the talking heads on the television and radio. I too am bored, good bye.

[Guest]

Jungle Jim,

Are you from New York?