12 killed in Paris by extreme Islamists.

[graciegirl]

The paper was one that pushed the edge, made everyone angry, held nothing sacred. The cartoon was one of An Isis member in black holding a knife to the throat of a person dressed as the prophet and that figure saying, I am God, you idiot. Or at least that is what I got from the Today Show this morning.

The retaliation was planned. The editor and the cartoonists rarely were there at the same time, some worked for other publications. They were all there when the gunman killed them, and the police officer(s) who protected them.

They have traced the gunmen to the northern edge of Paris to a downtrodden area where a heavy population of Islamic people live. A white athletic shoe fell out of the car driven by the gunman so the police surmised they were ready to change clothes and blend in.

Is this violence or is it terrorism?

How do you feel about this? What should be done? Does this scare you?

[Taltarzac725]

7 janvier 2015 : mort de mai 68 #jesuicharlie http://t.co/r7Rga9MCFO - scoopnest.fr (http://www.scoopnest.fr/user/claudeposternak/552841203973386240)

Despicable act.

[dbussone]

This is terrorism. I have a couple of points to make:
We, the citizens of the U.S, who love this country, are part of the problem. We have been beaten over the head so often about cultural sensitivities that political correctness is the order of the day. This needs to stop NOW.
Our Muslim citizens who stand by and don't speak out against acts like this are part of the problem.
Our Muslim citizens who don't turn out the radicals in their midst are a larger problem.
That we as a nation don't tell immigrants who come here to adopt the laws and cultures of our country - because of political correctness - is a problem. Instead we allow them to come here and segregate themselves into ghetto like enclaves; then they want us to recognize their "right" to practice sharia law.

We love to welcome immigrants who are excited to come here and join the fabric of the greatest nation on earth. Do NOT come here and try to tell us how to run it or how to change it. If you don't like the way we do things, DON'T come here.

It's time to take a strong position against those who wish to see us wiped off the face of the earth. Stop political correctness; stop extremists and do what is necessary to make that happen. Sorry if this offends a few people - or even a lot of people - too bad. This is a war for survival for us, for our country, and our way of life. If you don't recognize that, then YOU are also part of the problem.

[Villages PL]

The paper was one that pushed the edge, made everyone angry, held nothing sacred. The cartoon was one of An Isis member in black holding a knife to the throat of a person dressed as Allah and that figure saying, I am God, you idiot. Or at least that is what I got from the Today Show this morning. The retaliation was planned. The editor and the cartoonist rarely were there at the same time, some worked for other publications. They were all there when the gunman killed them, and the police officer(s) who protected them.

They have traced the gunmen to the northern edge of Paris to a downtrodden area where a heavy population of Islamic people live. A white athletic shoe fell out of the car driven by the gunman so the police surmised they were ready to change clothes and blend in.

Is this violence or is it terrorism?

How do you feel about this? What should be done? Does this scare you?

I think the cartoon you described, if true, was a bit extreme and they brought violence upon themselves by acting stupidly. They lost their lives for what, to prove a point?

How do I feel? Fine. What should be done? Search for the killers. Does it scare me? No, should it?

[kcrazorbackfan]

This is terrorism. Not many things worry me, but the possibility of another large terroristic act on US soil really scares me. And what is it where nearly everyday we hear of a high profile shooting (Ft. Bliss yesterday). What is happening to America?

[redwitch]

It doesn't scare me but it certainly angers me. People should have the right to express their views. They should not be killed for that.

As to the comments about political correctness, here's my view. Used correctly, being PC is the right thing to do. It is showing an acceptance of another's beliefs and respecting them as individuals. To me, this is exactly what everyone should be doing. However, it does not mean kowtowing to another. It does not mean having ballots printed in myriad languages. It does not mean having to deny one's own beliefs to accommodate another.

English was not my first language. It was my fifth. My parents firmly believed we would learn the language of the country in which we resided. We would learn their customs and accept that they had a right to their customs as much as we did ours. My poor mother could not pick up a new language to save her life, but she tried.

America has gotten confused and somehow decided that people have the right to practice their customs everywhere, not just in their homes. No demands are made to integrate into our melting pot. We go out of our way to accommodate those coming here. It is well past time that the government and corporations stop with the Spanish option on phones, etc. Foreigners in the past were forced to learn English. It made assimilation possible. Today, there is no need to assimilate.

You don't like our laws? Then work within the legal framework to change them. Don't demand that you have special laws just for your group. Peaceful protest has been proven to make a difference.

Some of the issues we've brought upon ourselves. Americans have always relegated newcomers into their own ghettos and enclaves. It was easier for a group that looked like our forefathers to move out and become part of the upwardly mobile. It is not so easy for people of color to move out and up, especially when they don't speak English and have no need to learn it. We need to quit bending over backwards but it has to start at the top, not with the average man.

[Taltarzac725]

I think the cartoon you described, if true, was a bit extreme and they brought violence upon themselves by acting stupidly. They lost their lives for what, to prove a point?

How do I feel? Fine. What should be done? Search for the killers. Does it scare me? No, should it?

Art no matter how bad an idea is still just an expression of something. It should never be met with violence. French history is full of people using ideas to propel violent actions. That's probably why they support freedom of speech so strongly. Just think what could have been done if people were made to laugh at various monsters throughout European history rather than taking them seriously.

This seems to be a reason for better communication, education and tolerance about other cultures, religions, etc., and not less.

[Barefoot]

This is terrorism. I have a couple of points to make:
We, the citizens of the U.S, who love this country, are part of the problem. We have been beaten over the head so often about cultural sensitivities that political correctness is the order of the day. This needs to stop NOW.
Our Muslim citizens who stand by and don't speak out against acts like this are part of the problem.
Our Muslim citizens who don't turn out the radicals in their midst are a larger problem.
That we as a nation don't tell immigrants who come here to adopt the laws and cultures of our country - because of political correctness - is a problem. Instead we allow them to come here and segregate themselves into ghetto like enclaves; then they want us to recognize their "right" to practice sharia law.

We love to welcome immigrants who are excited to come here and join the fabric of the greatest nation on earth. Do NOT come here and try to tell us how to run it or how to change it. If you don't like the way we do things, DON'T come here.

It's time to take a strong position against those who wish to see us wiped off the face of the earth. Stop political correctness; stop extremists and do what is necessary to make that happen. Sorry if this offends a few people - or even a lot of people - too bad. This is a war for survival for us, for our country, and our way of life. If you don't recognize that, then YOU are also part of the problem.

Dbussone, I agree.
Political correctness is also rampant in Canada.

[Villages PL]

Art no matter how bad an idea is still just an expression of something. It should never be met with violence. French history is full of people using ideas to propel violent actions. That's probably why they support freedom of speech so strongly. Just think what could have been done if people were made to laugh at various monsters throughout European history rather than taking them seriously.

This seems to be a reason for better communication, education and tolerance about other cultures, religions, etc., and not less.

I agree 100% with everything you said. However, did the cartoonist show tolerance concerning another culture and religion? I think he was trying to provoke a reaction and he got one, which was not very smart if one wishes to stay alive. I'm looking at it from an immediate and practical standpoint. Did he solve any cultural problems by his actions?

[Sandtrap328]

Basically, it was downright stupid to publish a cartoon like that in light of the large Muslim population in France. The paper was asking for trouble. Dang, use common sense- it is not capitulation to use common sense.

Was it terrorism or violence? Both. Was it justified? No.

[Beechie]

I agree 100% with everything you said. However, did the cartoonist show tolerance concerning another culture and religion? I think he was trying to provoke a reaction and he got one, which was not very smart if one wishes to stay alive. I'm looking at it from an immediate and practical standpoint. Did he solve any cultural problems by his actions?

Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.

[dbussone]

Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.


Amen. Well said.

[Taltarzac725]

Basically, it was downright stupid to publish a cartoon like that in light of the large Muslim population in France. The paper was asking for trouble. Dang, use common sense- it is not capitulation to use common sense.

Was it terrorism or violence? Both. Was it justified? No.

They were not asking to be murdered. This was terrorism targeting someone who offended the religious and cultural viewpoints of extremists. It is not political correct to support these kind of murderous acts in any peaceful society that I know of in 2015.

[Sandtrap328]

They were not asking to be murdered. This was terrorism targeting someone who offended the religious and cultural viewpoints of extremists.

Terrorism targeting someone who offended the religious and cultural viewpoints of extremists. Absolutely correct.

Once again, the paper was not exercising common sense in publishing an insensitive and offensive cartoon in a country with such a large Muslim population. Some extremists got very angry and committed murder. Definitely wrong but common sense would have prevented that from happening.

[Chi-Town]

This cartoon was the cover for the New Yorker magazine a few years back. Satire and press are common associates. But not worth murdering for. Unless you're a nutjob.

[graciegirl]

This cartoon was the cover for the New Yorker magazine a few years back. Satire and press are common associates. But not worth murdering for. Unless you're a nutjob.


I feel that many use that argument. That a person or persons would have to be mentally ill/ sick to do such a thing...BUT can all Muslim extremists be mentally ill? I don't think so. They are choosing an ideology which is murderous....and if someone now brings up the crusades............

This is NOW. Should we really not treat them like we treat everyone else? If you look at the link above, I think the second post, if you scroll down, you see a photo the satiric paper (Charlie someone) apparently used of a back view of Barack Obama showing his rather prominent ears, next to the back of a large bunny.

No one is immune, apparently, from their satire. It may hurt and it may inflame, but isn't that within the measure of an ordinary person's self control?

[Villages PL]

Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.

You're looking for an argument where there is none.. No one got what they deserved. The word "deserved" is yours not mine. They got what could be expected under the circumstances. Just as if you walk through a high-crime neighborhood with 100 dollar bills sticking out of your pockets, you can expect to get robbed but you don't deserve it.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists. I'm just saying that some retaliation should have been expected.

Was it worth it considering the loss of life with two policemen dead? In what way was it worth it? What's the payoff? Will this bring more freedom of speech anytime soon? I'll bet there's plenty of political correctness in France. Will this change now?

[Barefoot]

They got what could be expected under the circumstances.


To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists.

Beechie, I agree.

[Taltarzac725]

You're looking for an argument where there is none.. No one got what they deserved. The word "deserved" is yours not mine. They got what could be expected under the circumstances. Just as if you walk through a high-crime neighborhood with 100 dollar bills sticking out of your pockets, you can expect to get robbed but you don't deserve it.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists. I'm just saying that some retaliation should have been expected.

Was it worth it considering the loss of life with two policemen dead? In what way was it worth it? What's the payoff? Will this bring more freedom of speech anytime soon? I'll bet there's plenty of political correctness in France. Will this change now?

I do not see that as an equivalent argument. There are many US sources of satire and very tasteless free speech-- TOPIX threads come to mind-- but publishing offensive cartoons is hardly the same as walking down the Tenderloin with very expensive clothing and not expecting to be mugged.


I suppose if you walked down a street in Tehran and started insulting whatever Gods they worship there, that might be closer. That person should get a Darwin Award but for drawing cartoons from a very sophisticated city like Paris....

[tomwed]

Have you seen their cartoons?
Google Charlie Hebdo and select images

Have you seen how they also depicted The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

If you go to Google translate you can enter the text to read the translated captions.

From what I read about the magazine, the more insulting the cartoons were the more copies were sold, and the more money they made.

This is not a magazine that merely makes a country's leader or church's leader look foolish or backwards. That's the price of freedom and I understand that means anything goes.

[Beechie]

You're looking for an argument where there is none.. No argument here, just my thoughts No one got what they deserved. The word "deserved" is yours not mine. I said "to suggest" meaning expressed indirectly. They got what could be expected under the circumstances. Just as if you walk through a high-crime neighborhood with 100 dollar bills sticking out of your pockets, you can expect to get robbed but you don't deserve it.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists. I'm just saying that some retaliation should have been expected. Agreed, but should we now just expect and accept mass murders?

Was it worth it considering the loss of life with two policemen dead? In what way was it worth it? What's the payoff? Will this bring more freedom of speech anytime soon? I'll bet there's plenty of political correctness in France. Will this change now? I truly hope that radical extremism is given the top priority in all western societies as the very foundation of our freedoms are being challenged with feckless reprisal.

[dbussone]

Have you seen their cartoons?
Google Charlie Hebdo and select images

Have you seen how they also depicted The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

If you go to Google translate you can enter the text to read the translated captions.

From what I read about the magazine, the more insulting the cartoons were the more copies were sold, and the more money they made.

This is not a magazine that merely makes a country's leader or church's leader look foolish or backwards. That's the price of freedom and I understand that means anything goes.

Tom - we both recognize them as equal opportunity offenders. And you're correct that it is the price of freedom, and we don't like the tasteless things they print, but we also recognize we need to defend their right to do so.

[Bavarian]

France had many North African Colonies like Algeria and Libya. The people of these countries are considered to have French Citizenship rights. So, there are many of them in France. With the Birth Dearth amongst Europeans, by 2050 Europe will be predominantly Muslim.

Certain groups tolerate satire better than others, best to know which and not ridicule the Faith and Holy Ones of others. Treat people like you would like to be treated.

[tomwed]

Tom - we both recognize them as equal opportunity offenders. And you're correct that it is the price of freedom, and we don't like the tasteless things they print, but we also recognize we need to defend their right to do so.
Have you seen their cartoons? That was my question.

[dbussone]

Have you seen their cartoons? That was my question.

I have. As I said, they are generally very tasteless.

[Taltarzac725]

Have you seen their cartoons?
Google Charlie Hebdo and select images

Have you seen how they also depicted The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

If you go to Google translate you can enter the text to read the translated captions.

From what I read about the magazine, the more insulting the cartoons were the more copies were sold, and the more money they made.

This is not a magazine that merely makes a country's leader or church's leader look foolish or backwards. That's the price of freedom and I understand that means anything goes.

Actually there are a lot of limitations to free speech in many Western societies and cultures. But this is a magazine of satire that was attacked by murderous thugs who actually sound extremely like well trained killers. I just do not see the problem with the context of the cartoonists.

[tomwed]

France had many North African Colonies like Algeria and Libya. The people of these countries are considered to have French Citizenship rights. So, there are many of them in France. With the Birth Dearth amongst Europeans, by 2050 Europe will be predominantly Muslim.

Certain groups tolerate satire better than others, best to know which and not ridicule the Faith and Holy Ones of others. Treat people like you would like to be treated.

take a look at FactCheck click here (http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690)

[Chi-Town]

I feel that many use that argument. That a person or persons would have to be mentally ill/ sick to do such a thing...BUT can all Muslim extremists be mentally ill? I don't think so. They are choosing an ideology which is murderous....and if someone now brings up the crusades............

This is NOW. Should we really not treat them like we treat everyone else? If you look at the link above, I think the second post, if you scroll down, you see a photo the satiric paper (Charlie someone) apparently used of a back view of Barack Obama showing his rather prominent ears, next to the back of a large bunny.

No one is immune, apparently, from their satire. It may hurt and it may inflame, but isn't that within the measure of an ordinary person's self control?

GG, what I meant was that the Muslim extremists are pathological killers and ideologically nuts in my opinion. Their hatred is near psychotic. But when all is said and done they executed a murderous mass killing right out of a Hollywood shoot-em-up. This group is dangerous and trained. And smart enough to get away and do it again.

[Taltarzac725]

take a look at FactCheck click here (http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690)

It does not follow though that these will be extremists. Islam does have the troubling history of the Jihad but reasonable leaders can change things.

[MarkinMd]

Dbussone, You are 100% correct.

[billethkid]

It was terrorism. Trying to quantify or qualify what the magazine did or did not trigger is an exercise in opionating (word?).

What should be of concern is the reckless abandon pattern being demonstarted in different venues around the world in different ways. All with a common denominator of the killing of unsuspecting, defenseless innocents.

My biggest fear is when the home growns, that will look like the folks next door who will eventually do more of the Boston Marathon type killing. These folks home grown or the islamists who are committed to killing us all for what we beleive....will eventually try a school or church or mall or sporting event or theme park bombing. After which there will be a terror in the hearts and minds of us all and affect how we live or used to live. Once the comfort of safety has been shattered or destroyed, totally magnified by the media....our freedoms as we know them will be self limited by the fear.

All the pandering and ignoring or playing nice nice to not offend some is only another form of dilluted freedom.

We should be counting our lucky stars and saying a prayer daily that these radical, maniacal, COWARDLY killers have not done more here in the USA.....and I must add...yet! I do hope to be proven wrong.

Fear is so very easy to weaponize!!!!!!!!!!

[onslowe]

Tip toeing around religious extremists with a 7th century value system of life and death is going to lead to Western Civilization's decline. Please someone look at how Christian North Africa and the entire Levant was essentially erased. Back when history was still taught in the schools, did anyone come across Charles Martel? What about real and intellectually honest reasons for the Crusades? And on and on. Not 'politically correct' but true - as in honest.

Should we be "sensitive" to those religionists who are over sensitive, and may, because they are not as enlightened as us, shoot and kill at perpetrators of 'insult?' Isn't that dishonest? Isn't that truly cowardly? Acting or not acting because one is coming from some sort of 'practical standpoint' reflects a moral vacuum. When in Rome, do as the Romans…

The NY Times, like some others, has already started spreading the toxin about the murdered French journalist - he was always 'provoking,' implying of course he brought this upon himself. Let's all shoot him again. It's out of Lewis Carroll. Up is down. Wrong is right and the victim is the wrongdoer.

When I read some of the responses here I can only stand in awe of the great Winston Churchill and how he got through the appeasing, cowardly and morally vacant 1930's in Europe.

Thank God for all of us he existed and withstood the vile lies thrown at him.

Great thoughts above dbussone and beechie.

[tomwed]

It does not follow though that these will be extremists. Islam does have the troubling history of the Jihad but reasonable leaders can change things.
I'm sorry. I thought you said that by 2015 the Muslim population will be higher then 50 per cent in Europe and FactCheck has the number below 10 per cent.

[Native New Yorker]

This is terrorism. Not many things worry me, but the possibility of another large terroristic act on US soil really scares me. And what is it where nearly everyday we hear of a high profile shooting (Ft. Bliss yesterday). What is happening to America?

people in America

[rubicon]

Americans struggle to abide by the First Amendment. We forget other nations have no such limitations. In Germany, Holland, France and other nations there is a minority who are very concerned about the growing presence in their countries Holland, Germany and France have formed political parties to push their anti-Islam agenda. This act is indeed terrorism. Be prepared because every country including ours will be hit by terrorist doing these sort f things drive bys, (i.e) drop a grenade in the middle of a crowd (ie)the quick hit and retreat attacks.

There are two instruments that have tightly permeated our educational and political institutions and that have been an assault on our First Amendment.

Alinsky tactics have been elevated to a science in these institution and along with such a Marxist invention political correctness.

[graciegirl]

people in America due to gun violence than we do as a result of terrorism. Remember the movie theater in Colorado, and the Newtown massacre? Did you call for sensible gun restrictions after these tragedies?


There is gun violence and then there is extreme Islamic terrorism done by lone wolves.....maybe lone wolves...maybe influenced greatly by the big terrorists groups. To me, they aren't the same at all.

[dbussone]

people in America due to gun violence than we do as a result of terrorism. Remember the movie theater in Colorado, and the Newtown massacre? Did you call for sensible gun restrictions after these tragedies?

Sorry, but I think you are not only off topic but I seriously question your rationale for even making your post. And your lead sentence seems to be missing something.

[Native New Yorker]

There is gun violence and then there is extreme Islamic terrorism done be lone wolves. To me, they aren't the same at all.

difference.

[Native New Yorker]

Just check the title of my post.

[graciegirl]

difference. Innocent people die due to the misguided beliefs of deranged people.

So you are saying that the Boston Bombers and these three in Paris were all deranged/mentally ill..... and not following a religious philosophy, ie brainwashed?

[dbussone]

Just check the title of my post.

The title of your post is the title of this thread. Something is missing, and not just in your initial post - seriously. I can't see what you have described as the "title" of your post.

[dbussone]

difference. Innocent people die due to the misguided beliefs of deranged people.

And due to the misguided beliefs of people who cannot see, or don't care about, the impact of the present on the future.

[graciegirl]

So hard to keep track of quotes on here. They are shown from the wrong people most of the time and it becomes very confusing.

[Polar Bear]

I agree with posts here regarding PC...it may have been based upon good intentions, but it has run amok. I agree that we must be at war with terrorism. Just because there is not a "country" declaring war on us does not me that war has not been declared. It has and we need to respond accordingly.

One thing that has been mentioned a few times though that I cannot agree with is that American citizens are somehow partially responsible. We have all sorts of craziness and disagreement in our country, but we are in no way responsible for the murderous, evil acts of the terrorists.

The terrorist that have killed and plan to keep killing are the only ones responsible for such incomprehensible acts.

[dbussone]

Americans struggle to abide by the First Amendment. We forget other nations have no such limitations. In Germany, Holland, France and other nations there is a minority who are very concerned about the growing presence in their countries Holland, Germany and France have formed political parties to push their anti-Islam agenda. This act is indeed terrorism. Be prepared because every country including ours will be hit by terrorist doing these sort f things drive bys, (i.e) drop a grenade in the middle of a crowd (ie)the quick hit and retreat attacks.

There are two instruments that have tightly permeated our educational and political institutions and that have been an assault on our First Amendment.

Alinsky tactics have been elevated to a science in these institution and along with such a Marxist invention political correctness.

Thanks for opening this aspect of the discussion, although I'm concerned about the thread going political.

[onslowe]

people in America due to gun violence than we do as a result of terrorism. Remember the movie theater in Colorado, and the Newtown massacre? Did you call for sensible gun restrictions after these tragedies?

Couple of thoughts:

1. This thread is not about 'gun control' in the U.S.

2. This is about terrorism once again coming into our homes.

3. Terrorism is meant to create widespread terror to persuade a people to submit or acquiesce to a particular group or segment, or to create an atmosphere where more and more terror will occur.

4. Did you notice the proliferation of signs "Je Suis Charlie?" It affects all of us.

5. What would you talk about if this latest tragedy was caused by a bomb? Like Boston's Marathon? The Twin Towers?

[Polar Bear]

...Did you call for sensible gun restrictions after these tragedies?

Why didn't we think of that before?!? Pass some sensible gun restrictions and the terrorists will be stopped forever!! :shocked:

[dbussone]

I agree with posts here regarding PC...it may have been based upon good intentions, but it has run amok. I agree that we must be at war with terrorism. Just because there is not a "country" declaring war on us does not me that war has not been declared. It has and we need to respond accordingly.

One thing that has been mentioned a few times though that I cannot agree with is that American citizens are somehow partially responsible. We have all sorts of craziness and disagreement in our country, but we are in no way responsible for the murderous, evil acts of the terrorists.

The terrorist that have killed and plan to keep killing are the only ones responsible for such incomprehensible acts.

Polar - I hope you have not interpreted my initial post on this thread as implying that "we" are responsible for such acts. My point was that "we" let ourselves be led as sheep toward more and more political correctness without really considering the consequences.

[Polar Bear]

Polar - I hope you have not interpreted my initial post on this thread as implying that "we" are responsible for such acts. My point was that "we" let ourselves be led as sheep toward more and more political correctness without really considering the consequences.


I know you didn't mean that, dbussone. In fact yours is one of the posts that I was referring to that I largely agree with. I just get a little edgy if even a hint of direct responsibility for such atrocious acts is attributed to the U.S. in any way.

[dbussone]

I know you didn't mean that, dbussone. In fact yours is one of the posts that I was referring to that I largely agree with. I just get a little edgy if even a hint of direct responsibility for such atrocious acts is attributed to the U.S. in any way.

Sorry. I just wanted to be sure what you were saying. No offense intended, Polar. And what do you mean "largely?" I thought I nailed it pretty well.

[graciegirl]

If you discuss Alinsky and his followers advocates and beliefs, the thread is doomed as it is all about politics. I was even cut off discussing him and his tactics, etc when we had a political forum.

I wasn't discussing Alinsky. I had to look him up to know who he was.

Rubicon has taught me so much about debate such as the use of a "red herring" and changing the subject rather than addressing the subject. And since I am from Ohio, I know about comparing apples to oranges.

What I don't understand are those unwilling to really face the terrible danger we are in from terrorists. Maybe not here today...but the black clouds are trying to cover the sun. If we do not know WHO our enemy is, we cannot survive his attacks.

I too am continuing to wonder why the moderate and "peaceful" Muslims don't more often speak out more and disavow themselves and separate themselves from these individual acts. It would make ME feel better. They do every once in awhile...but I don't see it as wide spread.

[Polar Bear]

...And what do you mean "largely?" I thought I nailed it pretty well.


Heheh. I don't agree with anybody about everything. :)

[Rags123]

I wasn't discussing Alinsky. I had to look him up to know who he was.

Rubicon has taught me so much about debate such as the use of a "red herring" and changing the subject rather than addressing the subject. And since I am from Ohio, I know about comparing apples to oranges.

What I don't understand are those unwilling to really face the terrible danger we are in from terrorists. Maybe not here today...but the black clouds are trying to cover the sun. If we do not know WHO our enemy is, we cannot survive his attacks.

I too am continuing to wonder why the moderate and "peaceful" Muslims don't more often speak out more and disavow themselves and separate themselves from these individual acts. It would make ME feel better. They do every once in awhile...but I don't see it as wide spread.

This was not a surprise. In France they have what they call NO GO zones where everything in that zone is ruled by muslims. Those not of the muslim persuasion may not enter and Muslim law prevails There are also a few of these in England and look around our country....we are creating the same kind of "zones".

The only comment I will make about Alinsky is this...one of his weapons was creating GUILT. I mentioned this in the discussion on police and the riots and it was sort of ignored. THIS IS A ALINSKY tactic as we are made to feel guilty if these kind of zones or neighborhoods are not allowed.

This is beginning in this country. Each generation has had communities, not zones where ethnicity was prevelant but never to the point of turning the back on american LAW. If you wanted to survive you HAD TO assimilate, It is not that way any longer in this country or around the world. If you do not want to assimilate you will be defended and told that is your right, and those who oppose this are made to feel guilty. That is an Alinsky tool.

[dbussone]

This was not a surprise. In France they have what they call NO GO zones where everything in that zone is ruled by muslims. Those not of the muslim persuasion may not enter and Muslim law prevails There are also a few of these in England and look around our country....we are creating the same kind of "zones".

The only comment I will make about Alinsky is this...one of his weapons was creating GUILT. I mentioned this in the discussion on police and the riots and it was sort of ignored. THIS IS A ALINSKY tactic as we are made to feel guilty if these kind of zones or neighborhoods are not allowed.

This is beginning in this country. Each generation has had communities, not zones where ethnicity was prevelant but never to the point of turning the back on american LAW. If you wanted to survive you HAD TO assimilate, It is not that way any longer in this country or around the world. If you do not want to assimilate you will be defended and told that is your right, and those who oppose this are made to feel guilty. That is an Alinsky tool.

I concur with your comments about Zones and guilt. This will become a major issue if we do not change the political correctness push by so many who think it is the nice thing to do. All they are doing is abetting future discord

[JoMar]

:agree:Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.

:agree:

[Rags123]

I concur with your comments about Zones and guilt. This will become a major issue if we do not change the political correctness push by so many who think it is the nice thing to do. All they are doing is abetting future discord

The push to make many feel guilty is not new. Recall the posts here on various race issues.....if you felt that anyone of color was wrong, or violated the law or whatever, you were made to feel guilty. Just recently on posts talking about police in New York, the tactic was to attack the police instead of discussing the root cause of the issue. It is the way it has been for a time now. I posted then that that guilt thing is just what is done now.

AND think how we are establishing these zones here in the USA !!!!!

I lived in downtown Tampa for a few years and can tell you without a doubt there are no white zones in Tampa. BOTH black and spanish have zones where they do not want any white folks to visit and the police restrict their visits sparingly. This, to me, is where we go wrong....we are a country of LAWS and those laws apply to EVERYONE and need to be upheld. You cannot break apart and establish your own little area. They start out as simply "unwritten" as they did in France and then become accepted....it is happening.
HOPE CARL IN TAMPA IS AROUND. I am betting he can speak to that area !

[tomwed]

1] Is this violence or is it terrorism?
2] How do you feel about this?
3] What should be done?
4] Does this scare you?

1] I think it's violence. They must have sent death threats and warnings to stop mocking Mohammed or else. They killed the people they came to kill. It looked like a contract hit.

2] I think it is a dangerous world especially if you expect others to leave you alone when you provoke them. I wouldn't go to an Eagles/Dallas football game in Philadelphia dressed in a Cowboy jersey even though I have a right to. I wouldn't dress in Crypt colors and go into a Blood neighborhood even though I have a right to. I'm sure you can think of parallel examples.

3] I would tell newspapers satirical or otherwise that if they need protection because they are insulting terrorists then they should hire there own security and not risk the lives of policeman. I would tell employees that by working for a company like that it is risky.

4] I'm not scared at all. I have enough sense to stay out of dangerous areas or provoke a fight with someone who sees their own death as a reward to a better life.

I was in the area with my family when The Beltway terror was active. That was terror to me. The murders were random and in daylight. The area was large. The gunman did not warn anyone and was difficult to find. No one knew if there was more then 1 gunman or what the motivation was.

[B767drvr]

2] I think it is a dangerous world especially if you expect others to leave you alone when you provoke them. I wouldn't go to an Eagles/Dallas football game in Philadelphia dressed in a Cowboy jersey even though I have a right to. I wouldn't dress in Crypt colors and go into a Blood neighborhood even though I have a right to. I'm sure you can think of parallel examples.



Someone else asked this question earlier.

Would you have "provoked" Hitler? Simple question really. A world bully knocking on your door and wanting your house. Would you provoke him?

[graciegirl]

1] Is this violence or is it terrorism?
2] How do you feel about this?
3] What should be done?
4] Does this scare you?

1] I think it's violence. They must have sent death threats and warnings to stop mocking Mohammed or else. They killed the people they came to kill. It looked like a contract hit.

2] I think it is a dangerous world especially if you expect others to leave you alone when you provoke them. I wouldn't go to an Eagles/Dallas football game in Philadelphia dressed in a Cowboy jersey even though I have a right to. I wouldn't dress in Crypt colors and go into a Blood neighborhood even though I have a right to. I'm sure you can think of parallel examples.

3] I would tell newspapers satirical or otherwise that if they need protection because they are insulting terrorists then they should hire there own security and not risk the lives of policeman. I would tell employees that by working for a company like that it is risky.
4] I'm not scared at all. I have enough sense to stay out of dangerous areas or provoke a fight with someone who sees their own death as a reward to a better life.

I was in the area with my family when The Beltway terror was active. That was terror to me. The murders were random and in daylight. The area was large. The gunman did not warn anyone and was difficult to find. No one knew if there was more then 1 gunman or what the motivation was.

I believe with all my heart in the right of people to say what they want. In Free speech, in the first amendment. I think it was risky, and in some ways wrong...but no one should be killed for insulting another's religion, in this day and age. You have to learn to get along. People on this forum insult religion way too frequently and I don't like it...in fact the ones who defend these terrorists are usually atheists. I am not a good example of a Christian. I don't go to church, but I hate when people deride Christians. All the Christians that I know personally are nice people and would never kill or steal or .........

Everyone should be a little more scared than they were last year. Infidels, those who are NOT Muslims are the targets of the extremists...and I believe they will come to this country...and apparently so do the people who are involved in National intelligence. I heard them talk on CNN a few minutes ago.

[tomwed]

Someone else asked this question earlier.

Would you have "provoked" Hitler? Simple question really. A world bully knocking on your door and wanting your house. Would you provoke him?
I have dealt with bullies in my life. They got hurt much more then I did. That's the first thing my dad taught me.

Are you asking me if Hitler knocked on my door and try to take my house what would I do? I would not give it to him.

[dbussone]

I have dealt with bullies in my life. They got hurt much more then I did. That's the first thing my dad taught me.

Are you asking me if Hitler knocked on my door and try to take my house what would I do? I would not give it to him.

That was a simple question.

And the correct answer.

[fred53]

The paper was one that pushed the edge, made everyone angry, held nothing sacred. The cartoon was one of An Isis member in black holding a knife to the throat of a person dressed as Allah and that figure saying, I am God, you idiot. Or at least that is what I got from the Today Show this morning. The retaliation was planned. The editor and the cartoonist rarely were there at the same time, some worked for other publications. They were all there when the gunman killed them, and the police officer(s) who protected them.

They have traced the gunmen to the northern edge of Paris to a downtrodden area where a heavy population of Islamic people live. A white athletic shoe fell out of the car driven by the gunman so the police surmised they were ready to change clothes and blend in.

Is this violence or is it terrorism?



How do you feel about this? What should be done? Does this scare you?

and while not all violence is caused by "terrorists"....all violence causes terror.

How do I feel? Like any sane person would feel...anger...fear would come if it happened close to home...hopefully it wouldn't paralyze me.

What should be done? If anyone had that answer they'd be worldwide heroes. Be aware...that's all you can do...if you think you see something suspicious then you call it in to the police...keep on living...if you stop living then they win...

[billethkid]

it was a trick, survey like question designed to seek a certain response.

I do not view not letting anyone take my home as provoking anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[graciegirl]

I don't think I could stand up to a terrorist or say anything that would evoke violence. But that doesn't make it right what they do.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/q87/p480x480/10672225_10154595046575514_167313703667511937_n.jp g?oh=1e094368ada0b911b2e6a4ee00508f33&oe=55251D76&__gda__=1429204710_0525fd559a185250dcaab1622964e35 9
Elena Brower (https://www.facebook.com/ElenaBrowerTruth/photos/a.10150153649305514.418836.299083560513/10154595046575514/?type=1&fref=nf)

[B767drvr]

I do not view not letting anyone take my home as provoking anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So… "provoking" a certain minority of people by publishing a cartoon or disparaging article on a particular subject is crossing a line? A line resulting in death?

Or… it is not provoking?

IF it is provoking as Tomwed and others suggest, then suspend free speech and stop provoking everyone.

If it's NOT provoking, then treat this as a terrorist attack and get the bad guys.

[billethkid]

So… "provoking" a certain minority of people by publishing a cartoon or disparaging article on a particular subject is crossing a line? A line resulting in death?

Or… it is not provoking?

it is obviously in the eye/mind of the beholder. I answered that my not letting someone take my house is not viewed by ME as provoking anybody.

And I won't be provoked into a counterpoint variation on the theme:)

[B767drvr]

it is obviously in the eye/mind of the beholder. I answered that my not letting someone take my house is not viewed by ME as provoking anybody.

And I won't be provoked into a counterpoint variation on the theme:)

I'm NOT arguing with you, per se, as I almost always agree with your point of view. :wave:

I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of being wishy-washy in free speech. Either a society has free speech or it does not. If we begin down the road of limiting "provocative speech" so as to not offend any group and receive their wrath, then it is surely a very slippery slope to limited speech.

[CFrance]

Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.

I agree with this, and also with Tal.

The location of the police officer who was shot as he lay on the sidewalk was less than half a block from our apartment in Paris. I would be walking past that site to go to the Sunday outdoor market up by Place de la Bastille. The paper's offices were a few doors away from a small store we frequented. We have been watching video of our apartment building and familiar streets all day. It is a solidly middle class neighborhood with many children. We used to walk a friend's elementary school son home from school past there. I am just heartsick.

The French have as strong, if not stronger, a dedication to freedom of speech as we Americans. They do not mess around with political correctness very much. They are also at the forefront in the fight against terrorists. However, there is a lot prejudice against Muslims and Jews there, esp. in Paris. There have been laws passed limiting the wearing of certain items of clothing in certain places (mostly schools) and others proposed that would seem to be designed to limit religious freedom of immigrants. I could see how this could cause the French to be targeted by religious fanatics.

[Rags123]

I agree with this, and also with Tal.

The location of the police officer who was shot as he lay on the sidewalk was less than half a block from our apartment in Paris. I would be walking past that site to go to the Sunday outdoor market up by Place de la Bastille. The paper's offices were a few doors away from a small store we frequented. We have been watching video of our apartment building and familiar streets all day. It is a solidly middle class neighborhood with many children. We used to walk a friend's elementary school son home from school past there. I am just heartsick.

The French have as strong, if not stronger, a dedication to freedom of speech as we Americans. They do not mess around with political correctness very much. They are also at the forefront in the fight against terrorists. However, there is a lot prejudice against Muslims and Jews there, esp. in Paris. There have been laws passed limiting the wearing of certain items of clothing in certain places (mostly schools) and others proposed that would seem to be designed to limit religious freedom of immigrants. I could see how this could cause the French to be targeted by religious fanatics.

As someone who has lived there, can you speak to the ZONES established there ? That concept is spreading around Europe

[CFrance]

As someone who has lived there, can you speak to the ZONES established there ? That concept is spreading around Europe

I'm sorry, neither my husband nor I are familiar with the zone concept, at least under that name. Can you explain?

[tomwed]

So… "provoking" a certain minority of people by publishing a cartoon or disparaging article on a particular subject is crossing a line? A line resulting in death?

Or… it is not provoking?

IF it is provoking as Tomwed and others suggest, then suspend free speech and stop provoking everyone.

If it's NOT provoking, then treat this as a terrorist attack and get the bad guys.

No--I think the profit making magazine has a right to provoke anyone they want but be prepared to defend yourself. Don't use the local police as your own security team. Hire your own team to protect your employees.

[Rags123]

I'm sorry, neither my husband nor I are familiar with the zone concept, at least under that name. Can you explain?

They are called NO GO ZONES. The entire story concerns me because I think, and this is me, that the trend is coming here in a fashion and sort of how it came to these countries.

First,

"PARIS -- Violent crime can happen anywhere and to anyone and for many reasons, but in Muslim-controlled parts of France, it has become especially dangerous to be white.

Surveillance camera video shows white French being beaten up by predominantly Muslim immigrant gangs in the Metro and on the street.

Islamic immigrants consider it their territory and whites enter at their own risk. The French call them "sensitive urban zones" -- no-go zones where the police don't enter or don't enforce the law.

Some call them little Muslim caliphates inside the borders of France.

"And it's like that because these parts of the country are in the hands of drug traffickers, gangs and imams [Islamic leaders]," French commentator Guy Milliere explained.

Native French under Attack in Muslim Areas - World - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2014/April/Native-French-under-Attack-in-Muslim-Areas/)

"The French government has announced a plan to boost policing in 15 of the most crime-ridden parts of France in an effort to reassert state control over the country's so-called "no-go" zones: Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are largely off limits to non-Muslims."

France Seeks to Reclaim 'No-Go' Zones | EuropeNews (http://europenews.dk/en/node/57694)

It is not restricted to France either.

This is from Australia...

"The federal government’s intention to make it a crime for Australians to travel to “no-go zones” appears to be unprecedented among western democracies, according to terrorism experts, with countries such as Britain, Canada and France choosing not to go that far.

In the UK, the prime minister, David Cameron, recently unveiled a package of new anti-terrorism measures to counter the threat of British citizens fighting with Islamic State (Isis) and returning home to potentially plan domestic attacks."

No-go travel zones unprecedented among western democracies | Australia news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/22/no-go-travel-zones-unprecedented-among-western-democracies)

These zones also exist in Belguim, Sweden and a number of other countries, including the UK. Similar to those that existed in Rhodesia, South Africa and Northen Ireland

I really have a fear because in our country, that is the way we seem to be going.

I am a big believer in LAW...ONE LAW...not two or three. As I said in my earlier post, I have seen this in Tampa, obviously to a smaller scale, and the recent protests AGAINST police presences in certain areas just raised my antennae !

Also because of your background, you may "enjoy" this video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU

[graciegirl]

No--I think the profit making magazine has a right to provoke anyone they want but be prepared to defend yourself. Don't use the local police as your own security team. Hire your own team to protect your employees.

Why would a profit making magazine have to pay to defend itself ...moreso than a government magazine or a nonprofit???

It is a national freedom the police would be protecting. In our case the first amendment to the constitution. There are all kinds of foolishness that the..... is it ACLU....says it is protecting. Even that ugly church that carries horrible signs at veteran's funerals are allowed to do it, even if they have a space limit. Even when it is abused, most nations recognize the right of freedom of expression.

I often think that all this concentrating on being politically correct in speech is itself a limiting of free speech or free expression as the French call it.

A man might as well be dead if he cannot say what he thinks. Even if I am too cowardly most of the time. This forum has changed me.

[Rags123]

No--I think the profit making magazine has a right to provoke anyone they want but be prepared to defend yourself. Don't use the local police as your own security team. Hire your own team to protect your employees.

That is sort of like saying the protestors in Ferguson has a right to burn down their town but do not rely on the police to help !!!

Police are there to defend us against those who break the law. That is their job. Yes, security teams and they had them, unarmed as they seem to have been, but the police do get involved at some point as in this country !

[zonerboy]

Hard for me to comprehend the tone of some responses on this thread. Words to the effect that the magazine publishers should have known that Muslims are extremely "sensitive" people and easily offended by comments or expressions in regard to their religion or it's prophet. Thus they should have expected some type of retaliation to their intentional provocations.
I can remember recent discussions on this site on the topic of the Big Bang Theory. Certain religious types attempted to define the role of our Judeo-Christian God in the creation of the universe. And certain atheists or agnostics implied that the religious types were either ignorant, or unsophisticated, or superstitious, or stuck in the dark ages, or just plain stupid.
Should these non-believers rightfully expect that someday their homes will be invaded and they will be shot to death, or blown to pieces, because they offended the sensibilities of the religious folk???
This is not how things work in America. And should not work that way anywhere on the world. Tolerance has it's limitations.

[CFrance]

They are called NO GO ZONES. The entire story concerns me because I think, and this is me, that the trend is coming here in a fashion and sort of how it came to these countries.

First,

"PARIS -- Violent crime can happen anywhere and to anyone and for many reasons, but in Muslim-controlled parts of France, it has become especially dangerous to be white.

Surveillance camera video shows white French being beaten up by predominantly Muslim immigrant gangs in the Metro and on the street.

Islamic immigrants consider it their territory and whites enter at their own risk. The French call them "sensitive urban zones" -- no-go zones where the police don't enter or don't enforce the law.

Some call them little Muslim caliphates inside the borders of France.

"And it's like that because these parts of the country are in the hands of drug traffickers, gangs and imams [Islamic leaders]," French commentator Guy Milliere explained.

Native French under Attack in Muslim Areas - World - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2014/April/Native-French-under-Attack-in-Muslim-Areas/)

"The French government has announced a plan to boost policing in 15 of the most crime-ridden parts of France in an effort to reassert state control over the country's so-called "no-go" zones: Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are largely off limits to non-Muslims."

France Seeks to Reclaim 'No-Go' Zones | EuropeNews (http://europenews.dk/en/node/57694)

It is not restricted to France either.

This is from Australia...

"The federal government’s intention to make it a crime for Australians to travel to “no-go zones” appears to be unprecedented among western democracies, according to terrorism experts, with countries such as Britain, Canada and France choosing not to go that far.

In the UK, the prime minister, David Cameron, recently unveiled a package of new anti-terrorism measures to counter the threat of British citizens fighting with Islamic State (Isis) and returning home to potentially plan domestic attacks."

No-go travel zones unprecedented among western democracies | Australia news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/22/no-go-travel-zones-unprecedented-among-western-democracies)

These zones also exist in Belguim, Sweden and a number of other countries, including the UK. Similar to those that existed in Rhodesia, South Africa and Northen Ireland

I really have a fear because in our country, that is the way we seem to be going.

I am a big believer in LAW...ONE LAW...not two or three. As I said in my earlier post, I have seen this in Tampa, obviously to a smaller scale, and the recent protests AGAINST police presences in certain areas just raised my antennae !

Also because of your background, you may "enjoy" this video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU
As to the first part, concerning no-go zones in Paris, we viewed those outer suburbs as places we wouldn't go under any circumstances, the same way we would not go into certain ghetto areas in NYC or even Grand Rapids, MI. I don't think there were laws restricting travel there back then (2009/2010), but what law-abiding citizen would want to? I do not remember hearing big stories of a lawless society in those suburbs but we were pretty much limited to watching the news channel France 24 in English, as our French is not very sophisticated.

I am going to look more into the Australian no-go law. Thanks for pointing that out. Our son and DIL have been living there since 2007. So far their opinion of the attacks there is that they have been "in house," i.e., mentally unstable, lone-working, non-connected violent people who are using the terrorist label, and the media has been feeding a frenzy. On the other hand, he's cannot exactly be relied on to tell his mother the truth of what is going on when she is worrying about his safety.

[Rags123]

As to the first part, concerning no-go zones in Paris, we viewed those outer suburbs as places we wouldn't go under any circumstances, the same way we would not go into certain ghetto areas in NYC or even Grand Rapids, MI. I don't think there were laws restricting travel there back then (2009/2010), but what law-abiding citizen would want to? I do not remember hearing big stories of a lawless society in those suburbs but we were pretty much limited to watching the news channel France 24 in English, as our French is not very sophisticated.

I am going to look more into the Australian no-go law. Thanks for pointing that out. Our son and DIL have been living there since 2007. So far their opinion of the attacks there is that they have been "in house," i.e., mentally unstable, lone-working, non-connected violent people who are using the terrorist label, and the media has been feeding a frenzy. On the other hand, he's cannot exactly be relied on to tell his mother the truth of what is going on when she is worrying about his safety.

Thanks for your response. I was interested in your views as someone who was there because it staggers me as I research this.

The birth of these no go zones can be seen in the USA as we speak. I KNOW there are areas already in this country where the police just will not go to enforce the law and that is scary and can only build. These zones whether racial, religious or whatever threaten us at the base.

I need to get more information and read on this, because as I read what is happening, I can see it in our country developing.

Keep us posted on what your son reports

[tomwed]

Why would a profit making magazine have to pay to defend itself ...moreso than a government magazine or a nonprofit???

The more they insulted Muslims the more they sold issues. It's wrong to kill under any circumstances. I'm not defending the act. They are not the victims. The magazine also insulted Christians just as well but probably knew it would not be as dangerous. It's not hard to find the cartoons. It's very raw. They have a right to insult anyone. But do they have a right to ask for all that is needed from the public for protection? I feel very sorry for all who died over a cartoon.

And I could be all wrong. I usually stay away from this type of thread.

The cartoons are about as funny as Mad magazine. I can understand if the magazine was hoping to improve the life of it's citizens like Dickens did or Thomas Paine did. I think they just want to make money.

[CFrance]

Thanks for your response. I was interested in your views as someone who was there because it staggers me as I research this.

The birth of these no go zones can be seen in the USA as we speak. I KNOW there are areas already in this country where the police just will not go to enforce the law and that is scary and can only build. These zones whether racial, religious or whatever threaten us at the base.

I need to get more information and read on this, because as I read what is happening, I can see it in our country developing.

Keep us posted on what your son reports
Rags, you are jogging my memory. When we were living in north Jersey in 1980s, it was a known fact that there were parts of NYC where the police simply wouldn't go. It just wasn't a published fact.

I know what my son will say about Australia and safety. But I will ask him about the law.

France became an immigration utopia after WWII, with the majority of immigrants centering around Paris and other big cities. There is a lot of violence in these outer suburbs, much poverty, and the authorities don't have a handle on it. That much we saw while there.

[blueash]

Charlie Hebdo killings condemned by Arab states (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-killings-arab-states-jihadi-extremist-sympathisers-isis)

Early in this thread there was a call for condemnation from Islamic nations.
If you look you will find similar condemnations from both American and international non- jihadist Muslims to similar past events.
While this particular act like those in the past is indefensible, it is worth remembering that the huge percentage of jihadist killing is being done not against Western targets but rather within the Sunni vs Shia conflict and the assault of fundamentalists against more liberal Muslims in their own countries. Sort of like the Catholics spent a couple centuries killing the Protestants and vice versa.

I am proud that our country, with a few exceptions, has done a good job of protecting free speech, and that means even offensive free speech. That means that the Nazis can march in Skokie, that means that Mapplethorpe can produce art that might offend many. All part of that old "I detest what you write but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write..." from Voltaire, ironically a Frenchman.





Does anyone actually think that anyone in the middle east cares what an American Muslim group or individual says about this issue? Or for that matter what the King of Saudi Arabia says?

[graciegirl]

Why would a profit making magazine have to pay to defend itself ...moreso than a government magazine or a nonprofit???

The more they insulted Muslims the more they sold issues. It's wrong to kill under any circumstances. I'm not defending the act. They are not the victims. The magazine also insulted Christians just as well but probably knew it would not be as dangerous. It's not hard to find the cartoons. It's very raw. They have a right to insult anyone. But do they have a right to ask for all that is needed from the public for protection? I feel very sorry for all who died over a cartoon.

And I could be all wrong. I usually stay away from this type of thread.

The cartoons are about as funny as Mad magazine. I can understand if the magazine was hoping to improve the life of it's citizens like Dickens did or Thomas Paine did. I think they just want to make money.

Tom, I am NOT defending people making fun or being critical or hurting others about their religion. When the gooney pastor here in Florida burnt the copy of the Quran I thought that is just plain wrong. Someone is likely to kill you. You are gonna bring trouble to all of us and what are you accomplishing??? I was mad when someone said something about the Virgin Mary on this forum that was a very not nice joke. I get it.

But murdering someone sets an entirely different bar.

I don't care how devout you are, someone, sometime is gonna say something about your God, your wife or your kid, your house or your shirt. We don't kill people over it. Everyone needs to be protected against that kind of extremism.

That is why I am afraid of Muslim extremists. We all should be wary.

The magazine was way too much for me. I am not defending it's tone or it's taste or agreeing with it.

They not only insulted Muslims. Apparently they insulted everyone; the French President, our president etc. etc. In the link someone posted, there was a picture of Barack Obama and a large rabbit next to each other, lampooning the presidents ears.

The Today show showed one of the four cartoons. It was the prophet kneeling with a man in an Isis uniform with a knife at his throat and the prophet saying. I am God, you idiot.

[senior citizen]

Tip toeing around religious extremists with a 7th century value system of life and death is going to lead to Western Civilization's decline. Please someone look at how Christian North Africa and the entire Levant was essentially erased. Back when history was still taught in the schools, did anyone come across Charles Martel? What about real and intellectually honest reasons for the Crusades? And on and on. Not 'politically correct' but true - as in honest.

Should we be "sensitive" to those religionists who are over sensitive, and may, because they are not as enlightened as us, shoot and kill at perpetrators of 'insult?' Isn't that dishonest? Isn't that truly cowardly? Acting or not acting because one is coming from some sort of 'practical standpoint' reflects a moral vacuum. When in Rome, do as the Romans…

The NY Times, like some others, has already started spreading the toxin about the murdered French journalist - he was always 'provoking,' implying of course he brought this upon himself. Let's all shoot him again. It's out of Lewis Carroll. Up is down. Wrong is right and the victim is the wrongdoer.

When I read some of the responses here I can only stand in awe of the great Winston Churchill and how he got through the appeasing, cowardly and morally vacant 1930's in Europe.

Thank God for all of us he existed and withstood the vile lies thrown at him.

Great thoughts above dbussone and beechie.


Excellent post..........(below a bit of history on the Crusades......)

Does anyone really see an end in sight to this extremism & terrorism?

It's frightening for us, as grandparents to six, witnessing new life, precious little children born out of love......innocent by nature......

What type of world will they travel as adults, alongside perhaps, totally deranged people, twisted by their perception of religion & religious "right" vs. "wrong".

American children are being taught to be loving, kind, accepting, inclusive of all nationalities, religions, etc., etc.......

They are the peace makers. What are they up against?




Which came first....the Muslim Crusades or the Christian Crusades?


Besides following Muhammad, why else did the Muslims launch their Crusades out of Arabia in the first place?


In a complicated Crusade that lasted several centuries before the European Crusades, it is difficult to come up with a grand single theory as to what launched these Crusades.


Muslim apologists like Sayyid Qutb assert that Islam’s mission is to correct the injustices of the world.


What he has in mind is that if Islam does not control a society, then injustice dominates it. But if Islam dominates it, then justice rules it .


Even today, they all seem to think the westerners are "infidels".


Islam is expansionist and must conquer the whole world to express Allah’s perfect will on this planet, so Qutb and other Muslims believe. But this is ambiguous at best.


Over the centuries until now, Islam does not represent justice.


People, especially women, are oppressed in Islamic lands—for reasons beyond bad rulers like Saddam Hussein. The essence of Islam, which Qutb correctly describes elsewhere , is to control the details of society, but sharia (Islamic law) sometimes becomes excessive. Excess is never just. Nonetheless, Qutb describes Islam as politically and militarily expansionist from the very beginning, and in this he is right.


Most think of the Crusades which were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages.


In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem.


Many historians and some of those involved at the time, like Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, give equal precedence to other papal-sanctioned military campaigns undertaken for a variety of religious, economic, and political reasons, such as the Albigensian Crusade, the Aragonese Crusade, the Reconquista, and the Northern Crusades.


Following the First Crusade there was an intermittent 200-year struggle for control of the Holy Land, with six more major crusades and numerous minor ones.


In 1291, the conflict ended in failure with the fall of the last Christian stronghold in the Holy Land at Acre, after which Roman Catholic Europe mounted no further coherent response in the east.






Islamic Crusades vs. Christian Crusades


Who should own the "Kingdom of Heaven"?


In Ridley Scott’s monumental movie, "The Kingdom of Heaven", which is another way of saying Jerusalem according to the end of the film, the European Crusaders and the Muslim Crusaders fight over the city, with the Muslims coming out victorious.


The city historically and originally belonged to the Jews; they owned it a thousand years before Christ came and 1600 before Muhammad came. And when they were exiled, many came back, as soon as it was feasible; the love for this city runs deeply in them. So it belongs to them today.


It is simply a myth to assume that Muslims or Christians won Jerusalem by some kind of divine right or by an unchallenged assumption that says, "of course they own the region."


With that said, however, the film makes an erroneous assumption. It assumes that the European Crusaders and the Muslim Crusaders stand on an equal footing when they fight over Jerusalem.


The opposite is true. When the Medieval Christians fought over earthly ground, they abandoned the example of Jesus Christ.


However, when the Muslims fought over Jerusalem and conquered other cities, they were following the example of their prophet Muhammad. So the two religions do not stand on the same ground whatsoever.




The Islamic Crusades


Few Westerners know that the Muslims launched their own Crusades outside of Arabia two years after Muhammad’s death of a fever in AD 632.


The word Crusade (derived from the Latin word for "cross") means a holy war or jihad.


It is used as a counterweight to the constant Muslim accusation that only the Europeans launched a crusade. Muslims seem to forget that they had their own, for several centuries before the Europeans launched theirs as a defense against the Islamic expansion.




Who or what inspired the Islamic Crusades?


It may surprise the reader that Muhammad was the first to launch a Crusade.


In October to December 630, after the conquest of Mecca in January 630, Muhammad launches a Crusade to Tabuk, a city in the north of Saudi Arabia today, but in the seventh century it was under the control of northern tribes.


"Crusade" is the right word, because early Muslim sources say the army had 30,000 men and 10,000 horsemen and because Muhammad did so under the banner of Islam.


On his way north, Muhammad extracts (or extorts) "agreements"—without provocation—from smaller Christian Arab tribes to pay the jizyah tax, instead of being attacked and killed (a jizya tax is exacted from non-Muslims for the "privilege" of living under Islam).


They also had the option to convert, but most do not and agree, rather, to pay the tax. Once the Muslims reach Tabuk, however, the Byzantine army fails to materialize. Muhammad the prophet had believed a false rumor. So Muhammad and his large army return home.


So it is Muhammad himself who inspired the first generations of Muslims to carry out his Crusades.


Will it ever end????? They are still in their HOLY WAR.....

[Taltarzac725]

Tom, I am NOT defending people making fun or being critical or hurting others about their religion. When the gooney pastor here in Florida burnt the copy of the Quran I thought that is just plain wrong. Someone is likely to kill you. You are gonna bring trouble to all of us and what are you accomplishing??? I was mad when someone said something about the Virgin Mary on this forum that was a very not nice joke. I get it.

But murdering someone sets an entirely different bar.

I don't care how devout you are, someone, sometime is gonna say something about your God, your wife or your kid, your house or your shirt. We don't kill people over it. Everyone needs to be protected against that kind of extremism.

That is why I am afraid of Muslim extremists. We all should be wary.

The magazine was way too much for me. I am not defending it's tone or it's taste or agreeing with it.

They not only insulted Muslims. Apparently they insulted everyone; the French President, our president etc. etc. In the link someone posted, there was a picture of Barack Obama and a large rabbit next to each other, lampooning the presidents ears.

The Today show showed one of the four cartoons. It was the prophet kneeling with a man in an Isis uniform with a knife at his throat and the prophet saying. I am God, you idiot.

I saw that the spokesperson for the American Library Association denounced these murders but I will bet that very few US libraries have magazines like MAD, the French one targeted, or others like these IN PRINT FORM. You will not find many items in local public libraries where the majority of that community object to the contents. No Hustlers for instance and rarely Playboys or Playgirls.

Murdering people who write stuff you object to though takes this to a whole 'nother level as they said often on MAD TV. I mean whole 'nother level. It is terrorism plain and simple.

[Rags123]

Rags, you are jogging my memory. When we were living in north Jersey in 1980s, it was a known fact that there were parts of NYC where the police simply wouldn't go. It just wasn't a published fact.

I know what my son will say about Australia and safety. But I will ask him about the law.

France became an immigration utopia after WWII, with the majority of immigrants centering around Paris and other big cities. There is a lot of violence in these outer suburbs, much poverty, and the authorities don't have a handle on it. That much we saw while there.

THAT is EXACTLY my fear in this country. Many, if not most, immigrants that come here now have no plan to EVER be assimilated into our society, and will resist efforts to do that. In the past we were set up so that those immigrants who naturally stayed together in this country needed to assimilate to succeed or survive. Now, it appears that is not necessary or wanted. I spelled out a few months ago on here my experiences in Pennsylvania where the spanish speaking community plain refused to participate in programs for youth that we were expanding to include them...they were clear that they wanted to say within themselves.

Having pockets as you describe in this country, and they DO exist as I have spelled out and you recall. Then when we discuss them and suggest changes, we are made to feel guilty.

Sorry..hate to be trite, but if you come to America, bring your countries best of's and hold them dear, but become an American. Again, if you say this you are made to be the "bad guy"

This attack was a terrorist attack, and sadly, we can expect more as long as we allow it and I sincerely mean that...as long as we allow it.

[Rags123]

And it continues as we all thought it might...

"A female police officer was killed after she was called to reports of a traffic accident involving a grey Clio at around 7.15am. A street sweeper was wounded in the shooting."

In today's attack, which is not being linked by officials to yesterday's shootings, a man wearing a bullet-proof vest fired at the police woman and a civilian, who is thought to be a council worker.
Witness Ahmed Sassi said: "There was an officer in front of a white car and a man running away who shot."
TV channel iTele said both victims of the shooting were seen lying on the ground.
Le Parisien newspaper reported that one of the shooters ran towards the Metro station Chatillon-Montrouge. The other is reported to have fled by car and is still on the run.
AFP news agency reported that a 53-year-old suspect has been detained.
Brunt said: "It's difficult to believe there's no link (to the Charlie Hebdo shootings)."

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-officer-shot-paris-reports-080339634.html#TWuDlGw

[dbussone]

CFrance - here's one of the problematic issues being discussed:

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

By Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times 1754 SHARES
A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.



Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/#ixzz3OEnjoGc8

[B767drvr]

THAT is EXACTLY my fear in this country. Many, if not most, immigrants that come here now have no plan to EVER be assimilated into our society, and will resist efforts to do that. In the past we were set up so that those immigrants who naturally stayed together in this country needed to assimilate to succeed or survive. Now, it appears that is not necessary or wanted. I spelled out a few months ago on here my experiences in Pennsylvania where the spanish speaking community plain refused to participate in programs for youth that we were expanding to include them...they were clear that they wanted to say within themselves.

Having pockets as you describe in this country, and they DO exist as I have spelled out and you recall. Then when we discuss them and suggest changes, we are made to feel guilty.

Sorry..hate to be trite, but if you come to America, bring your countries best of's and hold them dear, but become an American. Again, if you say this you are made to be the "bad guy"

This attack was a terrorist attack, and sadly, we can expect more as long as we allow it and I sincerely mean that...as long as we allow it.

I agree Rags…

Moreover, these Islamic immigrants move to France, refuse to assimilate, and then DEMAND the French suspend their free speech rights (no making fun of Allah) or they will be KILLED!

How is this not like a big bully? Some on this thread say the "smart" thing to do is not provoke the bully. Europe tried to "appease" the big bully Hitler and not "provoke" him either.

Gut check time. Time to protect the right of free speech without equivocating. Hunt down and kill the terrorists, plain and simple.

[CFrance]

CFrance - here's one of the problematic issues being discussed:

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

By Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times 1754 SHARES
A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.



Read more: Washington Times - Politics, Breaking News, US and World News (http://www.washingtontimes.com/#ixzz3OEnjoGc8)
Thanks, I will read. I am not denying this is a problem. Instead of passing laws denying the right to wear hijabs, they ought to be arresting and deporting.

[Chi-Town]

If this happened in Israel there would be no discussion of how we should not provoke regardless of free press. They would be hunted down like the dogs they are. And it would be a relentless pursuit.

[Rags123]

I agree Rags…

Moreover, these Islamic immigrants move to France, refuse to assimilate, and then DEMAND the French suspend their free speech rights (no making fun of Allah) or they will be KILLED!

How is this not like a big bully? Some on this thread say the "smart" thing to do is not provoke the bully. Europe tried to "appease" the big bully Hitler and not "provoke" him either.

Gut check time. Time to protect the right of free speech without equivocating. Hunt down and kill the terrorists, plain and simple.

I think, and I am not a smart guy nor one who looks for trouble, but in my country we need NOW immigration reform because we need to ENFORCE THE LAW and stop appeasing to ensure we are deemed correct by whomever. I mean by reform is to enforce the law and find a way to do that.

People are coming into our country with no intention of becoming American and have not only no knowledge of our law, but a complete indifference to our law. That continues at a pace that is staggering to me. What happened in France WILL happen here, aided by american citizens who have the same attitude about our law.

Those NO GO zones in France are at the "seed" stage in our country.

[TexaninVA]

While this discussion is helpful (btw, it’s terrorism with a capital T) we are still focused on the symptom.

-- Islamic inspired murder is the symptom.

-- Islamic immigration into France is THE problem.

France has a choice … even though it’s 10% Muslim now, either start forcing mass deportations to any Islamic country of their choice, or start learning to pray on both knees in about 20 years. If the Islamics who won’t assimilate aren’t kicked out, they will take over thru demographics, violence and intimidation.

The feckless support by Western elites for “multiculturalism” is not only short sighted but will eventually, and predictably, prove suicidal for our kids and grandkids.

Most of us know this is true …. but we are in many cases afraid to state the obvious.

[billethkid]

THAT is EXACTLY my fear in this country. Many, if not most, immigrants that come here now have no plan to EVER be assimilated into our society, and will resist efforts to do that. In the past we were set up so that those immigrants who naturally stayed together in this country needed to assimilate to succeed or survive. Now, it appears that is not necessary or wanted. I spelled out a few months ago on here my experiences in Pennsylvania where the spanish speaking community plain refused to participate in programs for youth that we were expanding to include them...they were clear that they wanted to say within themselves.

Having pockets as you describe in this country, and they DO exist as I have spelled out and you recall. Then when we discuss them and suggest changes, we are made to feel guilty.

Sorry..hate to be trite, but if you come to America, bring your countries best of's and hold them dear, but become an American. Again, if you say this you are made to be the "bad guy"

This attack was a terrorist attack, and sadly, we can expect more as long as we allow it and I sincerely mean that...as long as we allow it.

Is it not apparent to local and federal government workers (highest to lowest ranks all included) what is happening? We know they are as aware as we are about the concern this "zoning" and watering down of requirements of immigrants is causing. Just look at France, England and Germany as well.

It is time to cease and desist the notion that we must throw open our doors to all comers legal and now unlimited illegals. We need to demand they fulfill certain obligations to become citizens. The must be made to speak english or not be allowed to stay. We must get back to being hard nosed about the guidelines for being allowed to live and become a citizen of the USA.
And if they do not comply they must be asked to go back to where they came.

There is no need for our government to continue offerring incentives to illegal entrants to our country.

Some call it political correctness....a term and notion I personally cannot stand or condone. There is a definite need to abide by and ENFORCE our laws and rules whether it offends some or not.

What is it going to take to awaken the American people to demand our government that it is time to stop playing political nice nice and to put forth a hard line attitude toward those who would take up residence in our country, continually demanding a watering down of our dearly held values, beliefs and freedoms.

Many of us, I would venture a guess the majority, are completely against what is happening to and in our country. And not liking the current trend of watering down America....just think what the next generation of America will be like as these zones and population centers of illegals continue to multiply.

While some may not like the notion or the sound of it.....we need to mount a movement to take back America....while we still can.

[Taltarzac725]

Is it not apparent to local and federal government workers (highest to lowest ranks all included) what is happening? We know they are as aware as we are about the concern this "zoning" and watering down of requirements of immigrants is causing. Just look at France, England and Germany as well.

It is time to cease and desist the notion that we must throw open our doors to all comers legal and now unlimited illegals. We need to demand they fulfill certain obligations to become citizens. The must be made to speak english or not be allowed to stay. We must get back to being hard nosed about the guidelines for being allowed to live and become a citizen of the USA.
And if they do not comply they must be asked to go back to where they came.

There is no need for our government to continue offerring incentives to illegal entrants to our country.

Some call it political correctness....a term and notion I personally cannot stand or condone. There is a definite need to abide by and ENFORCE our laws and rules whether it offends some or not.

What is it going to take to awaken the American people to demand our government that it is time to stop playing political nice nice and to put forth a hard line attitude toward those who would take up residence in our country, continually demanding a watering down of our dearly held values, beliefs and freedoms.

Many of us, I would venture a guess the majority, are completely against what is happening to and in our country. And not liking the current trend of watering down America....just think what the next generation of America will be like as these zones and population centers of illegals continue to multiply.

While some may not like the notion or the sound of it.....we need to mount a movement to take back America....while we still can.

More research is needed on this topic. What Turns Some Western Muslims Into Terrorists? The Causes of Extremism (http://dougsaunders.net/2013/04/muslim-immigrants-terrorists-jihad-terrorism/)

[Boudicca]

Historians should review what happens when utilizing the "appeasement" approach. Specifically as WWII broke out and UK's Neville Chamberlain"s triumphant "agreement" of appeasement with Hitler. In the current vernacular "how is that working for you" Appeasement in WWII enabled the enemy to murder countless millions people, because they could. Appeasement simply delays the inevitable.

[Rags123]

Is it not apparent to local and federal government workers (highest to lowest ranks all included) what is happening? We know they are as aware as we are about the concern this "zoning" and watering down of requirements of immigrants is causing. Just look at France, England and Germany as well.

It is time to cease and desist the notion that we must throw open our doors to all comers legal and now unlimited illegals. We need to demand they fulfill certain obligations to become citizens. The must be made to speak english or not be allowed to stay. We must get back to being hard nosed about the guidelines for being allowed to live and become a citizen of the USA.
And if they do not comply they must be asked to go back to where they came.

There is no need for our government to continue offerring incentives to illegal entrants to our country.

Some call it political correctness....a term and notion I personally cannot stand or condone. There is a definite need to abide by and ENFORCE our laws and rules whether it offends some or not.

What is it going to take to awaken the American people to demand our government that it is time to stop playing political nice nice and to put forth a hard line attitude toward those who would take up residence in our country, continually demanding a watering down of our dearly held values, beliefs and freedoms.

Many of us, I would venture a guess the majority, are completely against what is happening to and in our country. And not liking the current trend of watering down America....just think what the next generation of America will be like as these zones and population centers of illegals continue to multiply.

While some may not like the notion or the sound of it.....we need to mount a movement to take back America....while we still can.

I concur totally but be prepared for the onslaught of rhetoric and DEMONSTRATIONS that are geared to make anyone who feels this way to be the guilty party.

Two quotes come to mind in response to the continuing onslaught to make us the bad guy.....to those who profess this "idealism"...

"It is not materialism that is the chief curse of the world, as pastors teach, but idealism. Men get into trouble by taking their visions and hallucinations too seriously."
H. L. Mencken

"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive."
William F. Buckley, Jr.

[billethkid]

More research is needed on this topic. What Turns Some Western Muslims Into Terrorists? The Causes of Extremism (http://dougsaunders.net/2013/04/muslim-immigrants-terrorists-jihad-terrorism/)

I guess one has to read the rest of the book to garner any conclusions!
What was presented via the link does not match up with what "seems" to be presented as the Muslim zones in European countries today. Where they live their life and religion and feel no obligation to the citizens or government of the country they are residing in!

[Rags123]

More research is needed on this topic. What Turns Some Western Muslims Into Terrorists? The Causes of Extremism (http://dougsaunders.net/2013/04/muslim-immigrants-terrorists-jihad-terrorism/)

I read your link and am glad you shared it, but it more than ever cemented my thoughts. Again, the article speaks of how we are guilty again. While I understand there is more to this, I suggest this quote from the ending..

"What we are left to contemplate is a group of new immigrants, large but not the largest, who come from poor and religious backgrounds, who are settling into the social, political and reproductive patterns of their new homes, but whose progress is sometimes interrupted economically and educationally, and therefore socially, by institutions that deny them the same opportunities as their native-born neighbours. This may feel like an unprecedented phenomenon. But, as we shall see in the next chapter, it is far from unprecedented. We have been through all of this before."

I noted that it says "it is far from unprecedented. We have been through all of this before." and I offer this...

Yep it did happen before as I have said in my posts. Difference was the ACCEPTANCE of the United States Law both by the immigrant and by the United States. We have become our own worse enemy by using the plight of people, whether immigrant or something else, to launch guilt at everyone in the country who does not agree with allowing.

Nobody is forcing anyone to come to the US......but we should force respect for and conformity with our LAW.

I never have a problem with solutions to solve poverty or lack of education, etc, but I do have a problem being guilted into it. There are good reasons to solve those problems and we have done it before but not in the current environment we have in this country. We are a giving and understanding people, but do not take well to being forced into it.

And no other group has brought their OWN LAW with them...a law that is in direct difference with our existing law here. Observing of religion is not a problem but changing the law of the land where you want to live to allow for those religious freedoms is not something we are based on,

[Taltarzac725]

Western idealism is cruelled in the Middle East (http://www.smh.com.au/comment/western-idealism-is-cruelled-in-the-middle-east-20150105-12hxpv.html)

This is worth a look.

[Abby10]

I read your link and am glad you shared it, but it more than ever cemented my thoughts. Again, the article speaks of how we are guilty again. While I understand there is more to this, I suggest this quote from the ending..

"What we are left to contemplate is a group of new immigrants, large but not the largest, who come from poor and religious backgrounds, who are settling into the social, political and reproductive patterns of their new homes, but whose progress is sometimes interrupted economically and educationally, and therefore socially, by institutions that deny them the same opportunities as their native-born neighbours. This may feel like an unprecedented phenomenon. But, as we shall see in the next chapter, it is far from unprecedented. We have been through all of this before."

I noted that it says "it is far from unprecedented. We have been through all of this before." and I offer this...

Yep it did happen before as I have said in my posts. Difference was the ACCEPTANCE of the United States Law both by the immigrant and by the United States. We have become our own worse enemy by using the plight of people, whether immigrant or something else, to launch guilt at everyone in the country who does not agree with allowing.

Nobody is forcing anyone to come to the US......but we should force respect for and conformity with our LAW.

I never have a problem with solutions to solve poverty or lack of education, etc, but I do have a problem being guilted into it. There are good reasons to solve those problems and we have done it before but not in the current environment we have in this country. We are a giving and understanding people, but do not take well to being forced into it.

And no other group has brought their OWN LAW with them...a law that is in direct difference with our existing law here. Observing of religion is not a problem but changing the law of the land where you want to live to allow for those religious freedoms is not something we are based on,

I have been reading this thread with great interest and appreciate the wisdom and thought provoking posts from many of you. The sentence that is in bold and underlined above really made me think - if you put it in the simplest of terms (sometimes my little brain just works that way!), it's like inviting someone to live with you in your own home. If they don't respect you and the rules that you lay out for them in order to live there peacefully with you, it seems that only one of 2 things can happen. Either their ways/attitudes/ beliefs will eventually take over because you feel intimidated/quilty/or whatever, OR you will stand up to them and tell them to leave! Put in these terms, the right answer seems so simple.

[TexaninVA]

Historians should review what happens when utilizing the "appeasement" approach. Specifically as WWII broke out and UK's Neville Chamberlain"s triumphant "agreement" of appeasement with Hitler. In the current vernacular "how is that working for you" Appeasement in WWII enabled the enemy to murder countless millions people, because they could. Appeasement simply delays the inevitable.

I think your comments about appeasement are correct and spot on historically. However, I would also add appeasement is the refuge of cowardly and weak political leaders who simply do not have the stomach to a) accurately identify the problem and then b) actually take action that's effective , vs simply emitting a word fog that obscures it.

Radical Islam is the problem obviously and it is scary because the true believers have consistently shown they will employ violence. This tactic works because it shuts a lot of people up including Western leaders. And, as you say, this only delays the inevitable.

[Beechie]

https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/muslim-behavior-with-population-increase/

The above link is food for thought as we try to put this into perspective. Understand that this Islamic Terrorism will not go away anytime soon. Unless drastic measures are put in place we will unequivocally be dealing with this on our own soil. Percentages of population will determine the level of behavior and/or terrorism. One only needs to look at France, Britain, Sweden, Spain etc. It's time to take our heads out of the sand folks. We The People need to know the truth and we should hear that from our leaders.

I know we have been clamoring for the moderate muslims to speak out against such acts of terrorism but I submit that they are fearful and powerless to stop it. A moderate to speak out against it would then be labeled an apostate by those radicals within that religeon.

[dbussone]

Historians should review what happens when utilizing the "appeasement" approach. Specifically as WWII broke out and UK's Neville Chamberlain"s triumphant "agreement" of appeasement with Hitler. In the current vernacular "how is that working for you" Appeasement in WWII enabled the enemy to murder countless millions people, because they could. Appeasement simply delays the inevitable.


This is a very insightful piece. Those of us our age may be aware of this historic fact but our juniors are generally oblivious to what we think of as recent history. We have leaders who are in the same mode right now. One recent statement is: "ISIL is not Islamic." Another is: "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam". I'm skating on thin ice but I think we need to understand the context of our current situation.

[Taltarzac725]

This is a very insightful piece. Those of us our age may be aware of this historic fact but our juniors are generally oblivious to what we think of as recent history. We have leaders who are in the same mode right now. One recent statement is: "ISIL is not Islamic." Another is: "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam". I'm skating on thin ice but I think we need to understand the context of our current situation.

Do you know any Muslims? This is like saying all African Americans are followers of Black Panthers kind of exhortations to violence or all Christians saying that we should bomb abortion clinics.

I went to library school (University of Denver Class of 1984) with a kind decent but very religious librarian from the University of Mosul. The Iran-Iraq War did somewhat revolutionize him judging from the letters sent to me after he want back to Iraq. His friends though-- a group of University of Denver Graduate Students-- were from different Arab/Muslim countries and EACH and every of these people were individuals with their own take on things. My Iraqi librarian friend was also the brother of some kind of military leader in the Iraq Army so sibling rivalry and input also came into this heavily.

I had a person one year in back of me while at the University of Minnesota Law School who became the first Muslim elected to Congress-- Keith Ellison. His views were ambitious but nothing out of the ordinary according to his U of MN Class of 1990 Classmates. I was Class of 1989. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison I doubt if reading much of his work that you can tell that he is a Muslim.

ISIL is run by very violent extremists and these brutal thugs are hardly reflective of an ordinary Muslim in any country.

[dbussone]

Do you know any Muslims? This is like saying all African Americans are followers of Black Panthers kind of exhortations to violence or all Christians saying that we should bomb abortion clinics.

I went to library school (University of Denver Class of 1984) with a kind decent but very religious librarian from the University of Mosul. The Iran-Iraq War did somewhat revolutionize him judging from the letters sent to me after he want back to Iraq. His friends though-- a group of University of Denver Graduate Students-- were from different Arab/Muslim countries and EACH and every of these people were individuals with their own take on things. My Iraqi librarian friend was also the brother of some kind of military leader in the Iraq Army so sibling rivalry and input also came into this heavily.

I had a person one year in back of me while at the University of Minnesota Law School who became the first Muslim elected to Congress-- Keith Ellison. His views were ambitious but nothing out of the ordinary according to his U of MN Class of 1990 Classmates. I was Class of 1989. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison I doubt if reading much of his work that you can tell that he is a Muslim.

ISIL is run by very violent extremists and these brutal thugs are hardly reflective of an ordinary Muslim in any country.

I do. And most of them are terrified to speak up, even though they live here now. Those that do are largely professionals, including physicians. Those that don't will speak frankly in private but not public. One was a personal physician to the Shah of Iran. I also have friends from Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc.

I'm still trying to figure out how you took my comments as including all of any culture, race, or religion. I was speaking out against appeasement and political correctness - not throwing all Muslims under the bus.

[Rags123]

Do you know any Muslims? This is like saying all African Americans are followers of Black Panthers kind of exhortations to violence or all Christians saying that we should bomb abortion clinics.

I went to library school (University of Denver Class of 1984) with a kind decent but very religious librarian from the University of Mosul. The Iran-Iraq War did somewhat revolutionize him judging from the letters sent to me after he want back to Iraq. His friends though-- a group of University of Denver Graduate Students-- were from different Arab/Muslim countries and EACH and every of these people were individuals with their own take on things. My Iraqi librarian friend was also the brother of some kind of military leader in the Iraq Army so sibling rivalry and input also came into this heavily.

I had a person one year in back of me while at the University of Minnesota Law School who became the first Muslim elected to Congress-- Keith Ellison. His views were ambitious but nothing out of the ordinary according to his U of MN Class of 1990 Classmates. I was Class of 1989. Keith Ellison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison) I doubt if reading much of his work that you can tell that he is a Muslim.

ISIL is run by very violent extremists and these brutal thugs are hardly reflective of an ordinary Muslim in any country.

How would you classify those who start and control the NO GO zones ? In essence they do not kill, thus not extremist, yet they will not allow police to enforce the law of the land because they follow another law which is in contrast.

How would you classify those who insist that Muslim law is the ONLY law they will abide by and that the national law is irrevellant ? Imagine each religious belief picking and choosing the laws of the land they wish to follow

Islam is a body which encompasses all parts of society...religious, political, social etc. Those who kill may be what you call extremists. HOWEVER, those who refuse to obey a national set of laws because it does not fit their Islam is very dangerous to the very fabric of that country.

Anybody's religion is their business but it cannot impact the nations enforcement of their laws and that is a concern because these Zones are doing just that, although they are not all out killing, the seed of those killings is there.

[Villages PL]

To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous.

That was part of your reply to me earlier in this thread and someone posted their agreement as if I was promoting the position "to accept and succumb".

And it was all based on your assumptions. I have a plan, what's yours. If you were in charge of France, what would your next move be?

[Beechie]

That was part of your reply to me earlier in this thread and someone posted their agreement as if I was promoting the position "to accept and succumb".

And it was all based on your assumptions. I have a plan, what's yours. If you were in charge of France, what would your next move be?

Correct. I was making a general statement from the responses of a couple of posters including yourself.

[Villages PL]

I do not see that as an equivalent argument. There are many US sources of satire and very tasteless free speech-- TOPIX threads come to mind-- but publishing offensive cartoons is hardly the same as walking down the Tenderloin with very expensive clothing and not expecting to be mugged.


I suppose if you walked down a street in Tehran and started insulting whatever Gods they worship there, that might be closer. That person should get a Darwin Award but for drawing cartoons from a very sophisticated city like Paris....

I didn't give my example thinking it to be an equivalent argument. Just showing that for every such unwise action there may likely be an undesired outcome/reaction.

Hey, you guys forgot to accuse me of not believing in freedom of speech!

:22yikes:

[Villages PL]

Tip toeing around religious extremists with a 7th century value system of life and death is going to lead to Western Civilization's decline. Please someone look at how Christian North Africa and the entire Levant was essentially erased. Back when history was still taught in the schools, did anyone come across Charles Martel? What about real and intellectually honest reasons for the Crusades? And on and on. Not 'politically correct' but true - as in honest.

Should we be "sensitive" to those religionists who are over sensitive, and may, because they are not as enlightened as us, shoot and kill at perpetrators of 'insult?' Isn't that dishonest? Isn't that truly cowardly? Acting or not acting because one is coming from some sort of 'practical standpoint' reflects a moral vacuum. When in Rome, do as the Romans…

The NY Times, like some others, has already started spreading the toxin about the murdered French journalist - he was always 'provoking,' implying of course he brought this upon himself. Let's all shoot him again. It's out of Lewis Carroll. Up is down. Wrong is right and the victim is the wrongdoer.

When I read some of the responses here I can only stand in awe of the great Winston Churchill and how he got through the appeasing, cowardly and morally vacant 1930's in Europe.

Thank God for all of us he existed and withstood the vile lies thrown at him.

Great thoughts above dbussone and beechie.

Now great thoughts by you as well, but still no plan of action.

[Villages PL]

This was not a surprise. In France they have what they call NO GO zones where everything in that zone is ruled by muslims. Those not of the muslim persuasion may not enter and Muslim law prevails There are also a few of these in England and look around our country....we are creating the same kind of "zones".

I'm glad you pointed that out. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that large numbers of people in these zones are being subsidized by the state. So, why not use this as leverage? Something like what Israel does with Palestinians.

Why not give everyone in those zones a subsidy reduction until all the perpetrators are caught? It's not fair to those who are peaceful but once it's known how this will work, it may act as a deterrent to further violence.

If anyone has a better plan, let's hear it.

[Rags123]

This is a follow up to posts about the NO GO zones. I find it chilling....

"A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.

France has Europe’s largest population of Muslims, some of whom talk openly of ruling the country one day and casting aside Western legal systems for harsh, Islam-based Shariah law.

The situation is out of control, and it is not reversible,” said Soeren Kern, an analyst at the Gatestone Institute and author of annual reports on the “Islamization of France.”

“Islam is a permanent part of France now. It is not going away,” Mr. Kern said. “I think the future looks very bleak. The problem is a lot of these younger-generation Muslims are not integrating into French society. Although they are French citizens, they don’t really have a future in French society. They feel very alienated from France. This is why radical Islam is so attractive because it gives them a sense of meaning in their life.”

French Islamist mini-states grow into problem out of government control - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/)

The last paragraph bothers me. Everything I have read or seen expresses the CONSCIOUS DECISION to be separate, yet that is given as a reason for them becoming terrorists.

I may be just old and stupid, but we are doing this very same thing in this country. We do not emphasize the rule of LAW. Listen, I know that I keep saying that, but all the rhetoric about how we welcome immigrants is just words. We DID welcome them under certain conditions and they knew what had to be done.

Now, it seems, welcoming immigrants is the same thing as handing over some territory, giving up our language, and since this is not restricted to Muslims, we will forget your violation of law and demonstrate in the street to protest the consequences of your violating the law.

Why must we put up with this. Why must we be called ISLAMOPHOBIAS, or RACIST when all we want is for people to respect the laws of the country in which they live.

FRANCE, it appears just ceded things over because....well, not sure why they did...easier, more politically correct because if they ever cracked down on any of this behavior, they would have been called on the carpet worldwide, and in my opinion, even by the US.

Sometimes I feel fortunate to be older. The direction we are going is not promising for our young people, and it used to be that you KNEW WHEN YOU ARE BEING ATTACKED....now....it is just over time (as many of our enemies predicted in the past) a seemingly endless parade of giving up our nation to those who just do not want to obey the law.

Sorry for the long winded post....but..

so many editorials today worrying about backlash on any Muslims in this country, yet I recall NONE, or very few editorials worrying about backlash on our police while covering people breaking the law on national TV.

[Rags123]

I'm glad you pointed that out. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that large numbers of people in these zones are being subsidized by the state. So, why not use this as leverage? Something like what Israel does with Palestinians.

Why not give everyone in those zones a subsidy reduction until all the perpetrators are caught? It's not fair to those who are peaceful but once it's known how this will work, it may act as a deterrent to further violence.

If anyone has a better plan, let's hear it.

I just posted and alluded to that point.

My opinion is that the world would come down on France for that action, including the US. They would be called insensitive and just plain terrible people.

It is the eternal placing of guilt

[Villages PL]

1] Is this violence or is it terrorism?
2] How do you feel about this?
3] What should be done?
4] Does this scare you?

1] I think it's violence. They must have sent death threats and warnings to stop mocking Mohammed or else. They killed the people they came to kill. It looked like a contract hit.

2] I think it is a dangerous world especially if you expect others to leave you alone when you provoke them. I wouldn't go to an Eagles/Dallas football game in Philadelphia dressed in a Cowboy jersey even though I have a right to. I wouldn't dress in Crypt colors and go into a Blood neighborhood even though I have a right to. I'm sure you can think of parallel examples.

3] I would tell newspapers satirical or otherwise that if they need protection because they are insulting terrorists then they should hire there own security and not risk the lives of policeman. I would tell employees that by working for a company like that it is risky.

4] I'm not scared at all. I have enough sense to stay out of dangerous areas or provoke a fight with someone who sees their own death as a reward to a better life.

I was in the area with my family when The Beltway terror was active. That was terror to me. The murders were random and in daylight. The area was large. The gunman did not warn anyone and was difficult to find. No one knew if there was more then 1 gunman or what the motivation was.

Yes, it's not as though they didn't know what could happen. I read that this weekly newspaper was fire-bombed back in 2011. Therefore, they can't say this act of violence came as a surprise.

So I understand what you're calling for. You're calling for prudent behavior, or else be prepared for possible consequences.

[Villages PL]

I just posted and alluded to that point.

My opinion is that the world would come down on France for that action, including the US. They would be called insensitive and just plain terrible people.

It is the eternal placing of guilt

I suppose it would require the French government to have a backbone.

[onslowe]

Now great thoughts by you as well, but still no plan of action.

Plan of action for France? Greater Europe? The English heritage democracies like us? All sorts of 'special conditions' arise, I guess and the matter is very complex. I do not share the fatal pessimism of that French thinker quoted above by Rags that all is lost etc.

It is often said that Islamic terrorism is not a clear cut or simple problem because it is not allied with or identified with nations - the entities we are most used to. Yes, it is 'multi national' in many respects, but not all.

The currently 'friendly' Arab nations however are anything but, save perhaps Jordan and Morocco.

Christians are persecuted in Egypt, Iran and Iraq and Syria - untold and unreported stories of death, marginalization and church burnings. All by Islamic fanatics. Terrorists. Spreading Islam by the sword as they did in the 6th and 7th centuries, long before the Crusades.

Those friendly governments, that 'great majority' of "nice" Muslims remain deafingly silent to these atrocities, but more imprtantly they themselves do nothing. Leave the policing and retaliation to others who then can be controlled and made to pussyfoot for fear of being "Islamaphobes" or racists. Indeed, who can withstand the fury of those moral cowards and elitist misfits like the NY Times and its script hungry readers who would be "appalled" to use their phony moral high ground descriptive of choice?

It is significant to me that these murderers in Paris were not on a suicide mission, i.e., no way out, a la World Trade Center, Flight 93, the sneaker bomber Reid etc.

They are apparently living in an atmosphere where they think they can escape safely into some rat hole in some "no go" zone. Interesting that they had that belief. Arrogance. Then rob a gas station?

When pre-Colombian Europe's civilization was threatened by Islam, it reacted swiftly and decisively.

When Hitler and the Nazis 'finally' went too far, Europe had no choice but to wake up and try to salvage civilization. Interesting, that one of our greatest and wisest Generals and Presidents entitled his war time memoir "Crusade in Europe."

Maybe I'm drawing hasty lines in the sand in my search of action against Islamic terrorism. I don't think I am. The vast majority of Muslims say little or act hypocritically as nations, they still allow the hate mongering imams in their toxic little schools all over the world - poisoning generation after generation. They do nothing. Who's left to act?

You know, history's pendulum swings, and left unmoderated, it swings too far. Crush post World War I Germany and a Hitler emerges. Don't we know that there are anti-Islamic, overly nationalistic parties through out Europe fuming and growing tonight.

Nothing is done, but nature abhors a vacuum and maybe not the best thing will fill that growing vacuum.

The US can exert oh so indelicate and 'appalling' pressure on Europe to clean up its backyards and regain self respect. The US can continue to use an iron fist on terrorists and keep them locked up for thirty years or more notwithstanding the cries of the UN and its constituent US haters.

Yeah, we can do economic pressure, military pressure and plain stop being beholden to Arabs with oil - the biggest blackmailers and hypocrites around.

Any further and I fear I'll be deep in a domestic political free for all and that is not my intent to violate the rules here. Seriously.

[Rags123]

Plan of action for France? Greater Europe? The English heritage democracies like us? All sorts of 'special conditions' arise, I guess and the matter is very complex. I do not share the fatal pessimism of that French thinker quoted above by Rags that all is lost etc.

It is often said that Islamic terrorism is not a clear cut or simple problem because it is not allied with or identified with nations - the entities we are most used to. Yes, it is 'multi national' in many respects, but not all.

The currently 'friendly' Arab nations however are anything but, save perhaps Jordan and Morocco.

Christians are persecuted in Egypt, Iran and Iraq and Syria - untold and unreported stories of death, marginalization and church burnings. All by Islamic fanatics. Terrorists. Spreading Islam by the sword as they did in the 6th and 7th centuries, long before the Crusades.

Those friendly governments, that 'great majority' of "nice" Muslims remain deafingly silent to these atrocities, but more imprtantly they themselves do nothing. Leave the policing and retaliation to others who then can be controlled and made to pussyfoot for fear of being "Islamaphobes" or racists. Indeed, who can withstand the fury of those moral cowards and elitist misfits like the NY Times and its script hungry readers who would be "appalled" to use their phony moral high ground descriptive of choice?

It is significant to me that these murderers in Paris were not on a suicide mission, i.e., no way out, a la World Trade Center, Flight 93, the sneaker bomber Reid etc.

They are apparently living in an atmosphere where they think they can escape safely into some rat hole in some "no go" zone. Interesting that they had that belief. Arrogance. Then rob a gas station?

When pre-Colombian Europe's civilization was threatened by Islam, it reacted swiftly and decisively.

When Hitler and the Nazis 'finally' went too far, Europe had no choice but to wake up and try to salvage civilization. Interesting, that one of our greatest and wisest Generals and Presidents entitled his war time memoir "Crusade in Europe."

Maybe I'm drawing hasty lines in the sand in my search of action against Islamic terrorism. I don't think I am. The vast majority of Muslims say little or act hypocritically as nations, they still allow the hate mongering imams in their toxic little schools all over the world - poisoning generation after generation. They do nothing. Who's left to act?

You know, history's pendulum swings, and left unmoderated, it swings too far. Crush post World War I Germany and a Hitler emerges. Don't we know that there are anti-Islamic, overly nationalistic parties through out Europe fuming and growing tonight.

Nothing is done, but nature abhors a vacuum and maybe not the best thing will fill that growing vacuum.

The US can exert oh so indelicate and 'appalling' pressure on Europe to clean up its backyards and regain self respect. The US can continue to use an iron fist on terrorists and keep them locked up for thirty years or more notwithstanding the cries of the UN and its constituent US haters.

Yeah, we can do economic pressure, military pressure and plain stop being beholden to Arabs with oil - the biggest blackmailers and hypocrites around.

Any further and I fear I'll be deep in a domestic political free for all and that is not my intent to violate the rules here. Seriously.

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it

Work ?

[onslowe]

Good, logical and non-discriminatory ideas.

[graciegirl]

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it

Work ?


To me it sounds very reasonable. Enough is enough.

[billethkid]

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it

Work ?

this is an excellent start to get America back!Now if we can just find a way get our government representatives to go along with it and us.

[Beechie]

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it

Work ?

Do you have a campaign manager yet Rags123?

[dbussone]

Do you have a campaign manager yet Rags123?

I'll get the PAC set up. Nicely done Rags.

[Abby10]

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it

Work ?

So simple, so logical.......could this be why we can't get our government representatives to act accordingly? They so like to complicate the simple.

[tomwed]

I'm sorry. I just don't see it that way.

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

I want the to see the murderers captured, tried and convicted, not just deported. This would hold true with any other serious crime. Otherwise why not commit more crimes until someone puts you on a plane?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.
Why bring in religion, race or creed? Are judges excusing criminals from certain actions because of their religions, race or creed?* Enforce the law.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it
Again why bring in Religion? Enforce the law.


Being a police officer means you need to work in dangerous neighborhoods and risk your life. So pay officers a higher salary, protect them with better gear, and hire more of them. With these incentives exemplary young men and woman who may not have considered law enforcement might choose that career. Do you remember your friends in high school and college who would have made fine officers but thought the pay was not worth the risk? They had safer options.

In my opinion, it usually comes down to money.

*I need to think about race a little more.

[kittygilchrist]

(Guilty of not reading all posts...)
Islamic terrorists are the army of Satan. Allah is his name.
The US has become a collaborator by virtue of doing next to nothing against it and leaning away from Israel. World economies will collapse, lawlessness will abound, and natural disasters will increase.
Although Revelation was written about 1900 years ago, only in the last few years has technology made it possible for the predicted rise of a world leader who will force all mankind to be "chipped" or be unable to participate in commerce, thus the world leader controls global economy.

At last, Satan's armies will march against Israel in the Jezreel Valley (Megiddo or armaqgeddon )intent on genocide of Jews. (Long story why...put shortly, Satan's attempt to possess earth and steal Jerusalem)
When all hope appears lost, Jesus returns as Savior. He will overcome the armies and....

Well, that's enough...The US had better get on God's side.

[redwitch]

There was a young man who saved a journalist in Afghanistan. When the journalist asked him why, his answer was resoundingly simple. His mother told him that if joined ISIL he was to never cross her door again. They were not Muslims. She had been educated and had read the Quran. She knew ISIL was nor following the words of Muhammad. Her son told the journalist that if everyone could be taught to read, they would know they are not following the words of Allah and Muhammad.

And that is part of the problem. Muslim children in their enclaves are not being educated, even here. Like the Orthodox Jews, they are being taught in religious schools. These schools are not well regulated. Children grow up knowing their bible as determined by the teachers but knowing nothing about mathematics, the language of their country, honest history, and, most importantly, only what is deemed relevant in the Torah, the Quran, the Bible. This needs to stop now. School districts need to take an active role and make sure the children get a true education, not just being taught what a religious leader deems appropriate.

ESL needs to stop, not just in schools but in businesses and government as well. There is no need to assimilate if the country in which you reside doesn't have enough pride to say, "You're in Xxxx, you will follow our laws, learn our language to the best of your ability. If you don't, feel free to go where your language is spoken, but don't try to change ours to suit you." Too many nations have rolled over on this issue, especially America.

It is time for France to put on some big girl panties and clean up these enclaves. If the police need military backup, so be it. If a community has refused to let the police in, then those are the communities that have their leaders deported, their schools shut down, their churches silenced. Draconian? Yes, but necessary. The same goes here.

To me, Muslims are wonderful people. I have been privileged and honored to know many, both as a child and as an adult. I have been in their homes and they have been in mine. They dare not speak out. Not here, not in the Middle East, not in Europe. We do not need to fear the majority. We need to fear the fanatics and we need to remove their leaders from our soil. Imans who spread hate need to be jailed if inciting violence, deported otherwise. Mosques that welcome terrorists, that are used to recruit for ISIL and its ilk need to be shut down and be razed. Schools that refuse to teach the basics, that do not teach in English, need to be closed.

We are not dealing with people of the modern world. We are battling people of the seventh century. The times were much harsher then. Laws were black and white then. So, we either find a way to bring these people into this century or we battle them with the intent of utter destruction. Not sure how to do the former and I hate the idea of the latter.

[Rags123]

I'm sorry. I just don't see it that way.

How about we enforce the law, and if you violate the law and are illegal then you are gone from that country that day ?

I want the to see the murderers captured, tried and convicted, not just deported. This would hold true with any other serious crime. Otherwise why not commit more crimes until someone puts you on a plane?

And insure that everyone respects the law of the nation and not obscure laws that merge with religion.
Why bring in religion, race or creed? Are judges excusing criminals from certain actions because of their religions, race or creed?* Enforce the law.

Oh, and do not allow anyone of any faith or creed or race establish their own law in an area and stop policing that area to allow it
Again why bring in Religion? Enforce the law.


Being a police officer means you need to work in dangerous neighborhoods and risk your life. So pay officers a higher salary, protect them with better gear, and hire more of them. With these incentives exemplary young men and woman who may not have considered law enforcement might choose that career. Do you remember your friends in high school and college who would have made fine officers but thought the pay was not worth the risk? They had safer options.

In my opinion, it usually comes down to money.

*I need to think about race a little more.


The RELIGION of Islam incorporates a NATIONAL law to observe as part of that religion. This is a tenant of much, BUT NOT ALL, of the Muslim faith, and certainly the religion as broadcast by terrorists. Hence, Sharia Law, etc.

PLEASE READ......the NO GO ZONES in France have been ceded to these people, much as we have ceded parts of the USA to groups that just refuse to obey the law and will stone anyone who tries to enforce it. Those who burned down Ferguson Mo represent that feeling. which is that their feelings outweigh the enforcement of the law

"Sharia (Islamic law) deals with many topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, everyday etiquette and fasting.

Adherence to Islamic law has served as one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Muslim faith historically, and through the centuries Muslims have devoted much scholarly time and effort on its elaboration.[6] Human interpretations of sharia (fiqh) vary between Islamic sects and respective schools of jurisprudence, yet in its strictest and most historically coherent definition, sharia is considered the infallible law of God.[7]"

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia[/u

[Taltarzac725]

There was a young man who saved a journalist in Afghanistan. When the journalist asked him why, his answer was resoundingly simple. His mother told him that if joined ISIL he was to never cross her door again. They were not Muslims. She had been educated and had read the Quran. She knew ISIL was nor following the words of Muhammad. Her son told the journalist that if everyone could be taught to read, they would know they are not following the words of Allah and Muhammad.

And that is part of the problem. Muslim children in their enclaves are not being educated, even here. Like the Orthodox Jews, they are being taught in religious schools. These schools are not well regulated. Children grow up knowing their bible as determined by the teachers but knowing nothing about mathematics, the language of their country, honest history, and, most importantly, only what is deemed relevant in the Torah, the Quran, the Bible. This needs to stop now. School districts need to take an active role and make sure the children get a true education, not just being taught what a religious leader deems appropriate.

ESL needs to stop, not just in schools but in businesses and government as well. There is no need to assimilate if the country in which you reside doesn't have enough pride to say, "You're in Xxxx, you will follow our laws, learn our language to the best of your ability. If you don't, feel free to go where your language is spoken, but don't try to change ours to suit you." Too many nations have rolled over on this issue, especially America.

It is time for France to put on some big girl panties and clean up these enclaves. If the police need military backup, so be it. If a community has refused to let the police in, then those are the communities that have their leaders deported, their schools shut down, their churches silenced. Draconian? Yes, but necessary. The same goes here.

To me, Muslims are wonderful people. I have been privileged and honored to know many, both as a child and as an adult. I have been in their homes and they have been in mine. They dare not speak out. Not here, not in the Middle East, not in Europe. We do not need to fear the majority. We need to fear the fanatics and we need to remove their leaders from our soil. Imans who spread hate need to be jailed if inciting violence, deported otherwise. Mosques that welcome terrorists, that are used to recruit for ISIL and its ilk need to be shut down and be razed. Schools that refuse to teach the basics, that do not teach in English, need to be closed.

We are not dealing with people of the modern world. We are battling people of the seventh century. The times were much harsher then. Laws were black and white then. So, we either find a way to bring these people into this century or we battle them with the intent of utter destruction. Not sure how to do the former and I hate the idea of the latter.

I find your post the most thoughtful of the bunch. Not sure though that we could get our leaders to go with a plan like this. Education will help as well as access to critical thinking but the willingness to really promote such notions does not seem to sit really well with our media or politicians. It seems more to be about keeping the status quo and propping up the leaders who just remain in office for decades making sure that they give the appearance of helping those who keep them in political offices. There are exceptional leaders who buck the system and try to promote real change.

[Rags123]

I find your post the most thoughtful of the bunch. Not sure though that we could get our leaders to go with a plan like this. Education will help as well as access to critical thinking but the willingness to really promote such notions does not seem to sit really well with our media or politicians. It seems more to be about keeping the status quo and propping up the leaders who just remain in office for decades making sure that they give the appearance of helping those who keep them in political offices. There are exceptional leaders who buck the system and try to promote real change.

There have been attempts to do somewhat of what you say. Quickly check the failure rate in schools just in the state of Florida. You will find that one of the biggest reasons for the rate is language difficulties, yet any proposal to insist on English is met with resistance and WE put everyone on a guilt trip because we are picking on poor immigrants. I am speaking of second and third generation immigrants.

Our law says you must learn english to become a citizen.....how is that working do you think ?

[billethkid]

It is obvious we as a country must find a way to move from an almost "do nothing" mode to meaningful action supported by the majority of Americans.

Each day, week and year that goes by we are being moved to an acceptance of no enforcement until it becomes matter of fact and then too late to be able to do anything because like it or not a new norm will be established.

Then as the next generation comes along there is little to be disatisfied with or challenge because the new norm is all they will know. In addition to being outnumbered by those who are intent to dilute our current laws and freedoms.

It becomes confusing for the average American who has been raised to know the will of the people is what our elected officials are charged with. Only to witness day in and day out the will of the people being ignored or trampled upon while promoting another agenda.

Proof?
The XL pipeline. Over 65% of the American people are in support of proceding with this project. Soon both houses will have a bill to be signed to finally pass it. Only to be threatened to be vetoed!

The affordable health care act was not supported by well over 50% of the American people and their representatives. It was passed and signed into law anyway.

These two examples alone typify that which will eventually demoralize we the people from trying to get anything done. It will become increasingly more difficult to inspire the groundswell of dissatisfied Americans needed to not only try to "take America back"....but just maintain what we have left.

Currently the gravity, yes the seriousness and the force both are in the wrong direction!! The do nothing except that which is a part of the "agenda" is in fact facilitating the new norm.

And now for the statement that may intend to bait and invite some...the above is offered as my observation and is not intended as a political position.
Only hoping more of our generation is inspired to action. Because when we are gone, much of the base that still appreciates the true meaning of freedom will not be there to challenge the direction of the new norm.

In any case the subject of the threats to America and the free world NEEDS discussion and action......as a minimum....else the remaining current majority becomes doomed to go along silently!

[dewilson58]

Well now they have them cornered.

Time for the Duke and Clint to swing in and bring this to an end.

:crap2:

[tomwed]

The RELIGION of Islam incorporates a NATIONAL law to observe as part of that religion. This is a tenant of much, BUT NOT ALL, of the Muslim faith, and certainly the religion as broadcast by terrorists. Hence, Sharia Law, etc.

PLEASE READ......the NO GO ZONES in France have been ceded to these people, much as we have ceded parts of the USA to groups that just refuse to obey the law and will stone anyone who tries to enforce it. Those who burned down Ferguson Mo represent that feeling. which is that their feelings outweigh the enforcement of the law

"Sharia (Islamic law) deals with many topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, everyday etiquette and fasting.

Adherence to Islamic law has served as one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Muslim faith historically, and through the centuries Muslims have devoted much scholarly time and effort on its elaboration.[6] Human interpretations of sharia (fiqh) vary between Islamic sects and respective schools of jurisprudence, yet in its strictest and most historically coherent definition, sharia is considered the infallible law of God.[7]"

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia[/u
And why do no-go zones exist in free countries?

[billethkid]

And why do no-go zones exist in free countries?


Appeasement!!!!

ap·pease·ment
əˈpēzmənt/
noun
noun: appeasement; plural noun: appeasements

the action or process of appeasing.
"a policy of appeasement"
synonyms: conciliation, placation, concession, pacification, propitiation, reconciliation;
fence-mending
"a policy of appeasement"

[Rags123]

And why do no-go zones exist in free countries?

There are quite a few links about this in this thread and I suggest you read them.

However, let me give you an example that you probably watched on television.

FERGUSON MO.....gross violations of law...destruction of a city while we watched.

Sort of a NO GO

[Taltarzac725]

No-go area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area)

I would like to see more links to objective information about no go zones. Nothing with FOX or far right connections.

[Rags123]

No-go area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area)

I would like to see more links to objective information about no go zones. Nothing with FOX or far right connections.

LOL.....no facts just spin is what you are looking for then :)

Check the European papers....cannot tell you if they are liberal or conservative but as with the ones you do not want to read, they will give you the basic facts on NO GO

An eye opener this is. I can understand not wanting spin of any kind, but to dismiss a sector, the largest sector of the USA, because of affliation is bizarre. You are aware that Fox has the largest audience BY FAR AND AWAY of any in the country.

Not saying they even have anything on this because I dont pay as much attention as you obviously do.

[billethkid]

No-go area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_area)

I would like to see more links to objective information about no go zones. Nothing with FOX or far right connections.

Or MSNBC or far left connections too:jester:

[Taltarzac725]

Or MSNBC or far left connections too:jester:

I do try to get news from a number of sources as many seem extremely biased and basically just putting on news that their viewers like to hear and ignoring the rest.

FOX has been better of late but is far from being far and balanced. Same goes with MSNBC. Two sides of the same coin.

As far as current and reliable information goes the majority cannot control facts.

Back to no go zones. I would just like to find articles that show facts about these zones without much spin from news commentators going for ratings. So much news now seems to be entertainment rather than news.

[tomwed]

There have been attempts to do somewhat of what you say. Quickly check the failure rate in schools just in the state of Florida. You will find that one of the biggest reasons for the rate is language difficulties, yet any proposal to insist on English is met with resistance and WE put everyone on a guilt trip because we are picking on poor immigrants. I am speaking of second and third generation immigrants.

Our law says you must learn english to become a citizen.....how is that working do you think ?

As a teacher in small south Jersey I can tell you that families arrived in our district from Turkey and Portugal not speaking English 30 years ago. The ESL teachers work with these students and did the best they can to bring them up to speed. They met with their parents and the kids translated. The Turkish families applied to one of their organizations to send the HS ESL teacher and her husband to vacation in Turkey. I learned a 3 Turkish phrases to teach electronics when the first kids arrived, "What's happening?", "Please don't do that", and "Is it broken?." I'm sure my pronunciation was terrible at the very best but the kids knew I cared and they made remarkable progress in four years. Kids assimilate quickly.

It worked where I lived. I don't know if it's working now where I lived.

[tomwed]

There are quite a few links about this in this thread and I suggest you read them.

However, let me give you an example that you probably watched on television.

FERGUSON MO.....gross violations of law...destruction of a city while we watched.

Sort of a NO GO

Does this definition work for you?
no-go area
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a district in a town that is barricaded off, usually by a paramilitary organization, within which the police, army, etc, can only enter by force
2. an area that is barred to certain individuals, groups, etc

[Rags123]

Does this definition work for you?
no-go area
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a district in a town that is barricaded off, usually by a paramilitary organization, within which the police, army, etc, can only enter by force
2. an area that is barred to certain individuals, groups, etc

I do not want to be rude nor do I want to ignore you, but if you google no go zones, you will find lots of articles referring to France, Sweden, etc.

Also, recognize that NO GO ZONES are either racial or religious or ethnic and they are not some strict defined item as you are attempting to make it.

They become because either the government, such as in France or Sweden has ceded them, or just because of the "rule of the day" for want of a better term. Police are stoned, shot at and killed when they enter and attempts to clean these areas up are considered "inhumane" or some other guilt induced term.

As another poster alluded to, years ago in Jersey, there were places the police would just no go......they exist today in the good old USA. And I used Ferguson as a recent and televised example. What would you call Ferguson for about 2 weeks. NO LAW.... NO ENFORCEMENT......imagine that going on forever and that happens in this country and in Europe for the Muslims.

Go to Miami and tell me that there are not unofficial NO GO ZONES

[Taltarzac725]

Zone urbaine sensible (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_urbaine_sensible)

This is interesting. It is in French but look at the dates. The problem in France seems to go back to at least 1996. http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000747046&fastPos=1&fastReqId=1803590099&categorieLien=cid&oldAction=rechTexte

[Rags123]

There are 10 requirements to become a citizen of the US.....I offer you the last 5 of those for simple consideration...

"Be a person of good moral character.

Demonstrate an attachment to the principles and ideals of the U.S. Constitution.

Be able to read, write, and speak basic English.

Have a basic understanding of U.S. history and government (civics).

Take an oath of allegiance to the United States.

Learn About Naturalization | USCIS (http://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/learn-about-naturalization)

[tomwed]

I do not want to be rude nor do I want to ignore you, but if you google no go zones, you will find lots of articles referring to France, Sweden, etc.

Also, recognize that NO GO ZONES are either racial or religious or ethnic and they are not some strict defined item as you are attempting to make it.

They become because either the government, such as in France or Sweden has ceded them, or just because of the "rule of the day" for want of a better term. Police are stoned, shot at and killed when they enter and attempts to clean these areas up are considered "inhumane" or some other guilt induced term.

As another poster alluded to, years ago in Jersey, there were places the police would just no go......they exist today in the good old USA. And I used Ferguson as a recent and televised example. What would you call Ferguson for about 2 weeks. NO LAW.... NO ENFORCEMENT......imagine that going on forever and that happens in this country and in Europe for the Muslims.

Go to Miami and tell me that there are not unofficial NO GO ZONES

You are not being rude.

Does the no go area or zone definition work for you?
no-go area
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a district in a town that is barricaded off, usually by a paramilitary organization, within which the police, army, etc, can only enter by force
2. an area that is barred to certain individuals, groups, etc


I have been Google-ing and reading for the past couple of days in between other activities.

I lived in Newark. I went to college at Newark College of Engineering in1972 years after the riots until I transferred. I lived in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood with 2 Cuban students on second avenue. Tuition was $350 a year and the 3 bedroom apartment was $125 a month. My room mates were armed with shot guns hidden in their closet for protection and I was not. Someone broke into our apartment once when we were at school and it took 3 days for the police to arrive. People were mugged where I lived. I was street smart enough to know where I could ride my bike, when I could go out and where I could or should not go.

So I have had a small taste of what it is like to live in a somewhat dangerous neighborhood. It didn't feel that dangerous at the time.

I also would like to know the history of no go areas in Europe and the one in Dearborn.

[PennBF]

When I worked in Paris our offices had a system to protect from crazies entering the building. You first entered the rotating door and it stopped you from entering the building until you held up your badge for the receptionist inside and she could see you before you entered. If you were OK she would "buzz" the door and it would turn and allow you to enter. There were also very deep cement barriers to prevent from a car or truck smashing into the building. The resturant next door had been bombed thus serious controls over entrances. I don't understand why more business's that are under threats of attack don't install systems like this to protect the Company. Ours were installed in the '90's when a bunch of anti business crazies were running around. There are ways to protect your people but it takes investments and dedication to protections from "nuts":bowdown:

[graciegirl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France


Cannot find the Union of French Mosques....I imagine it is one of the organizations in this article and the translation is different.

[billethkid]

There are 10 requirements to become a citizen of the US.....I offer you the last 5 of those for simple consideration...

"Be a person of good moral character.

Demonstrate an attachment to the principles and ideals of the U.S. Constitution.

Be able to read, write, and speak basic English.

Have a basic understanding of U.S. history and government (civics).

Take an oath of allegiance to the United States.

Learn About Naturalization | USCIS (http://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/learn-about-naturalization)

These would be major challenges for many current US citizens.

Just a comment on the language requirement. Back in the 90s we were hiring a new GM for our installation in Hannover Germany. We hired a Dutchman, with many years experience in the USA. Where he and his family promptly, voluntarily enrolled in conversational english classes. Then several more years later he was assigned in England. And we hired him for the assignmnet in Germany. His children were 12 and 15. They were enrolled in the neighborhood German schools. When they inquored about transition of the language. They were told the kids would be put in their respective grades and there would be no allowance for language unfamiliarity. They were privately tutored for German at home. The kids said the first 3 months were absolutely terrible. Then they became more affluent. As they tried the German students helped them a lot. One year later you could not move them from the German school system.

This is I am sure is only one of many similar stories in countries around the world. It does work. No uprising. No hell raising by the parents.

Why is it not allowed in the USA?

Appeasement by a permissive, don't offend anybody, linguine spined administrators throughout the systems. Further perpetrated by local and federal cowards!

One very simple, very correctable example of what is happening in America. America!

[xNYer]

[QUOTE=dbussone;991830]This is terrorism. I have a couple of points to make:
We, the citizens of the U.S, who love this country, are part of the problem. We have been beaten over the head so often about cultural sensitivities that political correctness is the order of the day. This needs to stop NOW.
Our Muslim citizens who stand by and don't speak out against acts like this are part of the problem.
Our Muslim citizens who don't turn out the radicals in their midst are a larger problem.

Mohammed Moussaoui, President of the Union of French Mosques, said, " We condemn this hateful, criminal act. While the terrorists are intensifying their acts to exacerbate the confrontation inside our country, both Muslims and Christians have to intensify their actions to make a United front against extremism. "

Any reactions to his comments?

[dbussone]

[QUOTE=dbussone;991830]This is terrorism. I have a couple of points to make:
We, the citizens of the U.S, who love this country, are part of the problem. We have been beaten over the head so often about cultural sensitivities that political correctness is the order of the day. This needs to stop NOW.
Our Muslim citizens who stand by and don't speak out against acts like this are part of the problem.
Our Muslim citizens who don't turn out the radicals in their midst are a larger problem.

Mohammed Moussaoui, President of the Union of French Mosques, said, " We condemn this hateful, criminal act. While the terrorists are intensifying their acts to exacerbate the confrontation inside our country, both Muslims and Christians have to intensify their actions to make a United front against extremism. "

Any reactions to his comments?

Yes. Thank goodness someone in a leadership position is speaking out. Now, if a lot more would do the same we have taken a step forward.

[PennBF]

A good read are some books by Eric Hoffer who was a Long Shoreman in LA and was discovered to be a terrific practical thinker. :eclipsee_gold_cup:

[graciegirl]

A good read are some books by Eric Hoffer who was a Long Shoreman in LA and was discovered to be a terrific practical thinker. :eclipsee_gold_cup:
Never heard of him. This forum expands my horizons.

Eric Hoffer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hoffer)

[tomwed]

Does all this have to do with Sharia law? I don't know much about Sharia Law but I have it filed under negative. Can someone tell me if this is the same kind of thing...or is this word going to shut down this thread. I hope not.
__________________
I guess you are asking everyone but since you quoted me I'll speak for myself.
I didn't avoid the term Sharia Law.

[graciegirl]

[QUOTE=dbussone;991830]This is terrorism. I have a couple of points to make:
We, the citizens of the U.S, who love this country, are part of the problem. We have been beaten over the head so often about cultural sensitivities that political correctness is the order of the day. This needs to stop NOW.
Our Muslim citizens who stand by and don't speak out against acts like this are part of the problem.
Our Muslim citizens who don't turn out the radicals in their midst are a larger problem.

Mohammed Moussaoui, President of the Union of French Mosques, said, " We condemn this hateful, criminal act. While the terrorists are intensifying their acts to exacerbate the confrontation inside our country, both Muslims and Christians have to intensify their actions to make a United front against extremism. "

Any reactions to his comments?


Very good. Now I am waiting for such a declaration from people of similar stature here.

[janmcn]

France sent a very important message to the terrorists today; we don't negotiate, we will kill you. Kudos to the police who killed at least three terrorists today, while saving most of the hostages.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/new-shooting-and-hostage-situation-paris?CID=SM_TW


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gunfire-explosions-reported-charlie-hebdo-suspects-seige?utm_content=bufferae83e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Rags123]

France sent a very important message to the terrorists today; we don't negotiate, we will kill you. Kudos to the police who killed at least three terrorists today, while saving the hostages.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


At least five hostages freed from supermarket siege in Paris | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/new-shooting-and-hostage-situation-paris?CID=SM_TW)

Same sources, same people were condemning the police in Missouri for being so armed. Congress was bombarded to have hearings about all the weapons that the police have.

[xNYer]

[quote=xNYer;992819]


Very good. Now I am waiting for such a declaration from people of similar stature here.

CAIR, the largest advocacy group for Muslims in the U.S. Issued the following statement, ""We strongly condemn this brutal and cowardly attack and reiterate our repudiation of any such assault on freedom of speech, even speech that mocks faiths and religious figures. The proper response to such attacks on the freedoms we hold dear is not to vilify any faith, but instead to marginalize extremists of all backgrounds who seek to stifle freedom and to create or widen societal divisions.
"We offer sincere condolences to the families and loved ones of those killed or injured in this attack. We also call for the swift apprehension of the perpetrators, who should be punished to the full extent of the law."

[Taltarzac725]

Same sources, same people were condemning the police in Missouri for being so armed. Congress was bombarded to have hearings about all the weapons that the police have.

Those situations were very different. Ferguson and the hostage situations in the Paris area.

[Taltarzac725]

France sent a very important message to the terrorists today; we don't negotiate, we will kill you. Kudos to the police who killed at least three terrorists today, while saving most of the hostages.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


At least five hostages freed from supermarket siege in Paris | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/new-shooting-and-hostage-situation-paris?CID=SM_TW)


Reports: All Three Hostage Takers Dead In France (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gunfire-explosions-reported-charlie-hebdo-suspects-seige?utm_content=bufferae83e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

Good to hear that.

[graciegirl]

[quote=graciegirl;992833]

CAIR, the largest advocacy group for Muslims in the U.S. Issued the following statement, ""We strongly condemn this brutal and cowardly attack and reiterate our repudiation of any such assault on freedom of speech, even speech that mocks faiths and religious figures. The proper response to such attacks on the freedoms we hold dear is not to vilify any faith, but instead to marginalize extremists of all backgrounds who seek to stifle freedom and to create or widen societal divisions.
"We offer sincere condolences to the families and loved ones of those killed or injured in this attack. We also call for the swift apprehension of the perpetrators, who should be punished to the full extent of the law."


EXCELLENT. We are heading in the right direction.

[NavyNJ]

[quote=graciegirl;992833]

CAIR, the largest advocacy group for Muslims in the U.S. Issued the following statement, ""We strongly condemn this brutal and cowardly attack and reiterate our repudiation of any such assault on freedom of speech, even speech that mocks faiths and religious figures. The proper response to such attacks on the freedoms we hold dear is not to vilify any faith, but instead to marginalize extremists of all backgrounds who seek to stifle freedom and to create or widen societal divisions.
"We offer sincere condolences to the families and loved ones of those killed or injured in this attack. We also call for the swift apprehension of the perpetrators, who should be punished to the full extent of the law."

NYer.....though I concur with your sentiments about Muslim groups & organizations in the West AND Arab World needing to step up and take a stand on this type of action by the extremist fringe of their religion, I'm not so sure I'd put much stock in, or rely on, too much of what organizations such as CAIR had to say on the matter. They're not exactly what I'd call "honest brokers" in any of this. Good for the French, though, in taking care of business in prompt fashion! Their CT unit, the GIGN, is right up there with the best of them.

[Rags123]

Those situations were very different. Ferguson and the hostage situations in the Paris area.

I dont see that big of a difference HOWEVER....\

MY point was that the police in France cannot perform so well without the arms required to do so. We, the USA, found it comfy to criticize that in Missouri. They were defending their city from being totally destroyed by law breakers and arsonists with guns

The police, in case you had not noticed, are the front lines of this war, and we better soon wake up to that fact in this country.

It appears the French police did a great job and I applaud them, but how can you forget the hypocrisy in the USA !

[Beechie]

This is exactly what we were expecting from CAIR. However, if I may indulge those who may want to know a little more about that organization. Please check out a couple of sites for your edification. Sharia Law is certainly on their list of must haves...when the time is right.

CAIR: Islamists Fooling the Establishment :: Middle East Quarterly

(http://www.meforum.org/916/cair-islamists-fooling-the-establishment)https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/federal-court-strikes-down-oklahoma-sharia-and-international-law-ban

[dbussone]

[QUOTE=dbussone;991830]This is terrorism. I have a couple of points to make:

We, the citizens of the U.S, who love this country, are part of the problem. We have been beaten over the head so often about cultural sensitivities that political correctness is the order of the day. This needs to stop NOW.

Our Muslim citizens who stand by and don't speak out against acts like this are part of the problem.

Our Muslim citizens who don't turn out the radicals in their midst are a larger problem.



Mohammed Moussaoui, President of the Union of French Mosques, said, " We condemn this hateful, criminal act. While the terrorists are intensifying their acts to exacerbate the confrontation inside our country, both Muslims and Christians have to intensify their actions to make a United front against extremism. "



Any reactions to his comments?


By the way xNYer, your post will be confusing to others because you have mixed my original post with yours. Yours starts where you are quoting the president of the Union of French Mosques. I hope this was not intentional on your part. Please be careful in the future.

[Rags123]

Another report on how it has been received...this from Radio Free Europe...

"Media in the Muslim world have published a wide variety of reactions to the deadly attack on the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris.

In Iran, the morning papers offered very diverse coverage of the event. Although overall coverage was low-key compared to Western media, some newspapers covered the attack on their front pages.

It was noticeable that both conservative and reformist outlets criticized Charlie Hebdo for publishing cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad and questioned whether such cartoons constituted free speech."

"Although the more independent and reformist-leaning newspapers such as Sharq and Etemad also carried the story on their front page, the space dedicated to the news was much less than that of the daily Iran or of Hamshahri, the official newspaper of Tehran's municipality.

Sharq's headline on the event, which was run at the bottom of its front page, read: Shooting At The Heart Of Europe.

Sharq slammed the French satirical magazine for publishing Muhammad cartoons. "It is not acceptable that the president of France defends the freedom of speech in his speech after the attacks," wrote Sharq.

"Meanwhile, some of the more conservative newspapers tried to put the blame on what they called France's policies in the Middle East. Javan, said to be close to the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC), said in an editorial titled Cartoon Of Islamophobia In France that "France is among the countries that have had the largest dispatch of terrorists to Syria...and one can guess how dangerous the return of these terrorists could be for Europe."

The conservative daily Resalat said that the attack was a result of support for anti-Islamic media and other groups.

Muslim Press Reacts To Charlie Hebdo Attack (http://www.rferl.org/content/muslim-press-reacts-charlie-hebdo-attack/26783014.html)


There are comments on both sides in the article and interesting that those we are getting closer to...well, you read and decide. Good read if you are interested in the Muslim world response outside the US

[tomwed]

that's funny i was reading the same thing but hesitated to post

I am trying to find Muslim Leaders in the United States to see what they have to say but I can't find any.

I did find this. The different interpretations of the same event I find interesting. click here (http://www.rferl.org/content/muslim-press-reacts-charlie-hebdo-attack/26783014.html) It's from Radio Free Europe.

And I found out "There are 2 million Muslim adherents across the country in 2010.[98] Islamic populations are 0.6% of the US population per Fareed Zakaria quoting Pew Research Center, 2010."

Do you think that number has gone up?

Do you think almost all American Muslims would identify themselves as Muslims?

Who are the Muslim leaders in the United States?

[Taltarzac725]

that's funny i was reading the same thing but hesitated to post

I am trying to find Muslim Leaders in the United States to see what they have to say but I can't find any.

I did find this. The different interpretations of the same event I find interesting. click here (http://www.rferl.org/content/muslim-press-reacts-charlie-hebdo-attack/26783014.html) It's from Radio Free Europe.

And I found out "There are 2 million Muslim adherents across the country in 2010.[98] Islamic populations are 0.6% of the US population per Fareed Zakaria quoting Pew Research Center, 2010."

Do you think that number has gone up?

Do you think almost all American Muslims would identify themselves as Muslims?

Who are the Muslim leaders in the United States?

What Fox Won't Show You: Muslim Leaders Are Condemning The Paris Terror Attack | Research | Media Matters for America (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/01/07/what-fox-wont-show-you-muslim-leaders-are-conde/202049)

This shows what some are saying.

[graciegirl]

AND the one who shot the police office yesterday is dead too. According to CNN they may have known each other. The one who killed the woman police officer had taken hostages at a Kosher Grocery Store. He was killed just shortly after the other two were killed.

Good work Gend'armes. Is that spelled right CFrance? I spelled the Charlie Magazine wrong...

So glad they got those miserable thugs....now for the rest who scare me....... there and here...

[Sandtrap328]

So glad they got those miserable thugs....now for the rest who scare me....... there and here...

Don't be scared of all Muslims. There are only a few extremists among them who want to harm others. You can say the same about the other religions like Christians and Jews.

There are plenty of Muslims that work in The Villages as our physicians and there is an Islam center on Hwy 27 about 30 minutes from The Villages.

[Chi-Town]

Remember Yellow Peril? Asians were a mortal danger to all of us.

The beat goes on.

[graciegirl]

Don't be scared of all Muslims. There are only a few extremists among them who want to harm others. You can say the same about the other religions like Christians and Jews.

There are plenty of Muslims that work in The Villages as our physicians and there is an Islam center on Hwy 27 about 30 minutes from The Villages.


Please keep in mind........ that I moved here from Cincinnati, West Chester, and I lived close to a mosque for twenty years. I got a lot of shall I say, peripheral and anecdotal information as a result. I went to the same groceries and plant nurseries and car repair places and garage sales etc. etc. etc..

AND I am afraid.

Chi-town, I prefer to deal with issues of today. Yellow Peril, I had NEVER heard of. Also was not present during the crusades.

I do not like women being sexually modified or forced to be covered when their husbands aren't.....and I like couples going to church together...or at least able to. AND I don't thing dogs kissing you is an ethical matter. I also don't accept all of the tenants of the Catholic church as they are presented today...TODAY mind you. I am talking about TODAY.

[redwitch]

I'm sorry these thugs had to be killed. It just gives them martyrdom and another "hero" to admire. I had so hoped they could have all been captured alive and tried for the murderers they were. Death is what they wanted.

Personally, I was hoping for a bullet to the spine so they could spend the rest of their years in a chair or bed and may those years have been long and arduous.

[Rags123]

What Fox Won't Show You: Muslim Leaders Are Condemning The Paris Terror Attack | Research | Media Matters for America (http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/01/07/what-fox-wont-show-you-muslim-leaders-are-conde/202049)

This shows what some are saying.


Now I understand your distate for anything that is not left winged.....after debunking anything right wing you use Media Matters...

"Media Matters for America (MMfA) is a politically progressive[1] media watchdog group that is "dedicated to comprehe
nsively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media"

Media Matters for America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Matters_for_America)

And they dont sugar coat their allegiance and purpose.

I prefer what I had linked earlier...not Fox and hope you can stand to even think about Radio Free Europe

Muslim Press Reacts To Charlie Hebdo Attack (http://www.rferl.org/content/muslim-press-reacts-charlie-hebdo-attack/26783014.html)

I am shocked at a link to Media Matters from anyone professing that Fox or anything was not fair....this is about as left wing as you can get....but thats ok.....just stunned at the hypocrisy !

In actuality, your post is definitely of the political nature and does not fit what has been a pretty non p........ discussion of this tragedy

[onslowe]

Don't be scared of all Muslims. There are only a few extremists among them who want to harm others. You can say the same about the other religions like Christians and Jews.

There are plenty of Muslims that work in The Villages as our physicians and there is an Islam center on Hwy 27 about 30 minutes from The Villages.

We are talking about religion based attacks. Spin doctoring can fashion it as 'political' or only vaguely and aberrant religion, but still it is, when the smoke and mirrors of the love everybody segment clears, a retaliatory and violent religion with 7th century values and behaviors.

Please realize that Media Matters, a link above, is a "progressive political" group - as in left wing - not some sort of herald of truth.) The effort to cite it is intellectually honest and worthy… the group and its founder, David Brock, are not.

Is there not an action akin to public excommunication at least among the moderate Muslims. Cannot these moderates publicly cough up these hate filled co-religionists by even demonstrating against the known hate teaching mosques and schools? And yes, that dirty little word, informing and not decrying those who do? These would go a long way in making a justifiably sceptical world less doubtful of all Muslim intent to live as peaceful people in countries that have their existing cultures and laws in place.

On another point from above, please let's not trivialize our reaction to this horror with the familiar 'red herring' device of "Let's not forget about (the 'Yellow Peril' in the post above.) It is wrong to try to lessen the importance of this event by saying "The beat goes on." It is neither valid, nor relevant and just does not fit because it's not helpful. It's as intellectually dishonest and lazy as Rosie O'Donnell yelling "What about the Crusades?" once on a discussion on "The View." A device, false, ill fitting, and completely not consistent with honest discourse.

Muslim actions will speak far louder than platitudes from Muslim journalists.

Do something about cleaning up your own backyards - here and abroad.

[Rags123]

We are talking about religion based attacks. Spin doctoring can fashion it as 'political' or only vaguely and aberrant religion, but still it is, when the smoke and mirrors of the love everybody segment clears, a retaliatory and violent religion with 7th century values and behaviors.

Please realize that Media Matters, a link above, is a "progressive political" group - as in left wing - not some sort of herald of truth.) The effort to cite it is intellectually honest and worthy… the group and its founder, David Brock, are not.

Is there not an action akin to public excommunication aty least among the moderate Muslims. Cannot these moderates publicly cough up these hate filled co-religionists by even demonstrating against the known hate teaching mosques and schools? And yes, that dirty little word, informing and not decrying those who do? These would go a long way in making a justifiably sceptical world less doubtful of all Muslim intent to live as peaceful people in countries that have their existing cultures and laws in place.

On another point from above, please let's not trivialize our reaction to this horror with the familiar 'red herring' device of "Let's not forget about (the 'Yellow Peril' in the post above.) It is wrong to try to lessen the importance of this event by saying "The beat goes on." It is neither valid, nor relevant and just does not fit because it's not helpful. It's as intellectually dishonest and lazy as Rosie O'Donnell yelling "What about the Crusades?" once on a discussion on "The View." A device, false, ill fitting, and completely not consistent with honest discourse.

Muslim actions will speak far louder than platitudes from Muslim journalists.

Do something about cleaning up your own backyards - here and abroad.

These posts, to me, are part of the "make them feel guilty" group of thinking. They want to make you feel guilty for how you feel. They KNOW very well that you are not alluding to what they refer to.....BUT, whatever it is, it fits to use this old way of turning it on you. It is the trademark of any discussion on race or ethnicity...YOU are the bad guy because of how you think and therefore, whether spoken or unspoken, you are a (fill in the blank) These posts offer nothing but trying to add the guilt.

PS....notice how quickly some turn this to right versus left as soon as possible. Next step is your correcting their posts become an attack and reported as such. Familiar game plan

[billethkid]

These posts, to me, are part of the "make them feel guilty" group of thinking. They want to make you feel guilty for how you feel. They KNOW very well that you are not alluding to what they refer to.....BUT, whatever it is, it fits to use this old way of turning it on you. It is the trademark of any discussion on race or ethnicity...YOU are the bad guy because of how you think and therefore, whether spoken or unspoken, you are a (fill in the blank) These posts offer nothing but trying to add the guilt.

PS....notice how quickly some turn this to right versus left as soon as possible. Next step is your correcting their posts become an attack and reported as such. Familiar game plan

All too familiar!!

[Beechie]

Don't be scared of all Muslims. There are only a few extremists among them who want to harm others. You can say the same about the other religions like Christians and Jews.

There are plenty of Muslims that work in The Villages as our physicians and there is an Islam center on Hwy 27 about 30 minutes from The Villages.

Nobody is saying they are afraid of all muslims. We understand the good law abiding muslims are in the high 90 percentile.

I'm not quite following the moral equivalence however between the Radical Islamists and the Radical Christians or Radical Jews. This notion does come up from time to time by the usual suspects. I have to admit I never give it a thought while i'm boarding a plane that we could be hijacked by some religious fanatic other than a Radical Islamist.

We don't need to be reminded as if we were children and unaware that muslims walk and work among us. Every muslim I have ever met and still correspond with to this day have been wonderful people. It's now all about eradicating the Radical Islamists but in order to do this we need to define and understand our enemy and to remove the road blocks that allow for the proliferation of extremism such as PC.

[Taltarzac725]

We are talking about religion based attacks. Spin doctoring can fashion it as 'political' or only vaguely and aberrant religion, but still it is, when the smoke and mirrors of the love everybody segment clears, a retaliatory and violent religion with 7th century values and behaviors.

Please realize that Media Matters, a link above, is a "progressive political" group - as in left wing - not some sort of herald of truth.) The effort to cite it is intellectually honest and worthy… the group and its founder, David Brock, are not.

Is there not an action akin to public excommunication at least among the moderate Muslims. Cannot these moderates publicly cough up these hate filled co-religionists by even demonstrating against the known hate teaching mosques and schools? And yes, that dirty little word, informing and not decrying those who do? These would go a long way in making a justifiably sceptical world less doubtful of all Muslim intent to live as peaceful people in countries that have their existing cultures and laws in place.

On another point from above, please let's not trivialize our reaction to this horror with the familiar 'red herring' device of "Let's not forget about (the 'Yellow Peril' in the post above.) It is wrong to try to lessen the importance of this event by saying "The beat goes on." It is neither valid, nor relevant and just does not fit because it's not helpful. It's as intellectually dishonest and lazy as Rosie O'Donnell yelling "What about the Crusades?" once on a discussion on "The View." A device, false, ill fitting, and completely not consistent with honest discourse.

Muslim actions will speak far louder than platitudes from Muslim journalists.

Do something about cleaning up your own backyards - here and abroad.

Thank you for the fair assessment of my intentions. Anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis knows I am a moderate and will vote as my research guides me. That can and has lead me in a variety of directions.

I now can see why the Political Thread can be used for gamesmanship. It happens a lot on TOTV.

There are more modern readings of the Muslim religion but it sure has been weaponized a great deal in the past couple of decades.

[tomwed]

I dont see that big of a difference HOWEVER....\

MY point was that the police in France cannot perform so well without the arms required to do so. We, the USA, found it comfy to criticize that in Missouri. They were defending their city from being totally destroyed by law breakers and arsonists with guns

The police, in case you had not noticed, are the front lines of this war, and we better soon wake up to that fact in this country.

It appears the French police did a great job and I applaud them, but how can you forget the hypocrisy in the USA !

The French municipal police do not generally carry firearms.

[Rags123]

Thank you for the fair assessment of my intentions. Anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis knows I am a moderate and will vote as my research guides me. That can and has lead me in a variety of directions.

I now can see why the Political Thread can be used for gamesmanship. It happens a lot on TOTV.

There are more modern readings of the Muslim religion but it sure has been weaponized a great deal in the past couple of decades.

While I totally agree with you about "gamesmanship" I am sure we are not working with the same definition.

Seems to me...someone who absolutely says publicly do not give me any right wing news sites or Fox, then cites of all the site available, the most left wing site possible whose ONLY purpose is to refute those sites you openly and with great fervor eliminated from any substance, AND THEN proclaim to be moderate is interesting at best.

It is ok to be whatever.....but the lack of consistency and the refuting of one sides view does not, to me anyway, say moderate.

But again, the most striking thing is to make this a right versus left thing...that is what strikes me as odd. I might add again, that YOU are the one who completely discounted anything from the right.

[Rags123]

The French municipal police do not generally carry firearms.

I did not know that....but someone was very heavily armed today in Paris and were referred to as police.

[Taltarzac725]

While I totally agree with you about "gamesmanship" I am sure we are not working with the same definition.

Seems to me...someone who absolutely says publicly do not give me any right wing news sites or Fox, then cites of all the site available, the most left wing site possible whose ONLY purpose is to refute those sites you openly and with great fervor eliminated from any substance, AND THEN proclaim to be moderate is interesting at best.

It is ok to be whatever.....but the lack of consistency and the refuting of one sides view does not, to me anyway, say moderate.

But again, the most striking thing is to make this a right versus left thing...that is what strikes me as odd. I might add again, that YOU are the one who completely discounted anything from the right.

I never said I dismiss stuff from the right. Fox is on most of the time in our household. CNN other times. MSNBC very rarely.

You are the one that put a political spin on my motives for looking to get at objective information. Media Matters at least gives you an idea of where they get their information.

[Moderator]

Let's keep the focus on the topic at hand... The Incident in Paris, rather than a debate on the political leanings of various media sources.

If the discussion continues to stray, the thread will be closed.

[Rags123]

////

[Chi-Town]

Now I understand your distate for anything that is not left winged.....after debunking anything right wing you use Media Matters...

"Media Matters for America (MMfA) is a politically progressive[1] media watchdog group that is "dedicated to comprehe
nsively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media"

Media Matters for America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Matters_for_America)

And they dont sugar coat their allegiance and purpose.

I prefer what I had linked earlier...not Fox and hope you can stand to even think about Radio Free Europe

Muslim Press Reacts To Charlie Hebdo Attack (http://www.rferl.org/content/muslim-press-reacts-charlie-hebdo-attack/26783014.html)

I am shocked at a link to Media Matters from anyone professing that Fox or anything was not fair....this is about as left wing as you can get....but thats ok.....just stunned at the hypocrisy !

In actuality, your post is definitely of the political nature and does not fit what has been a pretty non p........ discussion of this tragedy

\\\\

[dbussone]

///

[janmcn]

U.S. Issues Travel Warning After Paris Terror Attacks - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/u-s-issues-travel-warning-after-paris-terror-attacks-n283386)


The US State Department put out a world wide travel alert today for US citizens traveling abroad, as a result of the terrorist attacks in Paris which have now killed 20 people. No specific threats against this country have been uncovered.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I did not know that....but someone was very heavily armed today in Paris and were referred to as police.

Anti-Terrorism Police - chalk one up for the good guys in sending 3 extremists to Hell.

[Rags123]

By the way, the conversation on being politically correct needs this to be filed with it...

"A California newspaper recently used the word “illegals,” upsetting some that apparently don’t like the word “illegals” to be used when referring to undocumented immigrants that are living in the United States illegally. In protest, those disagreeing with the California newspaper’s decision to use “illegals” got a hold of some red spray paint and graffitied the newspaper office’s exterior walls, painting, “The border is illegal not the people who cross it.”

As an added bonus, the anti “illegals” vandals also spray painted a smiley face with “fight back” written above, and punctuated the project with splattered paint ball projectiles."


Read more at California Newspaper Targeted: Santa Barbara News-Press Vandalized For Using Word ‘Illegals’ (http://www.inquisitr.com/1742035/california-newspaper-targeted-santa-barbara-news-press-vandalized-for-using-word-illegals/#uoG3QVbim6F6dYfU.99)

[MarkinMd]

A few years ago every member of our department was required by the police administration to attend training on dealing with undocumented immigrants. The trainer was a person who was telling us we shouldn't use term " illegal alien". The trainer got really upset when one of the officers asked her if we should title bank robbery reports as unauthorized withdrawals ,lol.