Should Places of Worship Be Tax Exempt?

[Bonanza]

I've often seen places of worship throughout the country that are beyond grand. Obviously, I'm not speaking about the small neighborhood places, or even the even lesser noticed places where services are held in a rented store front.

I'm speaking about the ostentatious "architectural palaces" which are built with incredible stained glass windows, manicured landscaping and gardens, night-scape lighting, imported woods and stone . . . the list goes on as have the costs which range in the many millions. Many of these places are built in prime real estate areas where they are exempt from taxation.

What are your thoughts regarding places of worship being exempt from taxes?
If you believe they shouldn't be, how should they be taxed?

[Monkei]

The law which granted them the tax exempt status was given to them if they did not enter the world of politics, such as endorsing of not endorsing. Every year the church ignores the agreement ...

[joldnol]

no problem with the sanctuary/temple/mosque being exempt but I do have a problem with their other property being exempt. First Baptist of Jacksonville has a quarter of downtown (peripheral buildings, multiple multi-story parking garages, etc) Jax off of the tax rolls

[gamby]

NO !

They make tons of money, this is called "INCOME" ; The term Income Tax comes to mind.

Maybe I'll become a Minister :)

[onslowe]

This ought to be a lively and 'fun' thread on a topic that can most certainly be talked about in a calm, non-agenda, and delightful way.

Someone was bored were they?

[Bay Kid]

Yes. Before we even discuss churches being exempt look at the NFL. Why are they exempt?

[goldseekur]

If there really was separation of Church & State, then the church ground ONLY should be exempt, not all their holdings. But as was stated in another post. The Church does NOT stay out of politics, and if it doesn't then it should NOT have exemption and pay like everyone else.

[graciegirl]

Shall we talk about all non profits? I don't like stuff that isn't what it is supposed to be. I don't like that Westboro Baptist Church. I do like St. Timothy's. Is that too big? Where do we stop with this stuff? Shall we talk about Bingo? Shall we talk about having to pay membership to a church? Now I can get into that discussion. I don't like Bingo in places of worship to make money. I don't like sushi.

BUT I REALLY don't like the tone of this at all. I do not like anti-religious anything just because you aren't religious. UNLESS the religion is out to slit your throat.

It just isn't how I was raised. If you are not religious, than don't be, but don't be a pot stirrer.

[DougB]

Yes. Before we even discuss churches being exempt look at the NFL. Why are they exempt?

All the NFL team owners and players pay taxes. The NFL League Office doesn't because it is classified as a Trade Organization.

[graciegirl]

Dale Carnegie is rolling in his grave.

[graciegirl]

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I am going back to bed and will get up later and try to be nice.

[dbussone]

The law which granted them the tax exempt status was given to them if they did not enter the world of politics, such as endorsing of not endorsing. Every year the church ignores the agreement ...

What "church" - you make it sound like all are the same.

[Cedwards38]

I don't think so. Seems like a lot of people living the high life through religious organizations. Not exactly what Jesus had in mind.

[janmcn]

no problem with the sanctuary/temple/mosque being exempt but I do have a problem with their other property being exempt. First Baptist of Jacksonville has a quarter of downtown (peripheral buildings, multiple multi-story parking garages, etc) Jax off of the tax rolls


The same can be said for all of downtown Clearwater which is owned by the Scientologists.

[TheVillageChicken]

The blame should not go to the beneficiaries, but rather to the benefactor.

[philnpat]

My wise father always avoided talking politics and religion with friends. He also advised against throwing gasoline on a fire.

[Challenger]

There are some estimates that the value of "church owned" properties in the US may approach $1 trillion. The question of local subdivisions imposing RE taxes is complicated with far reaching consequences, but in my opinion should be carefully explored.
Many of our churches have what I refer to as an "ediface" complex , which to me has greater meaning than the tax question. When we meet our "maker" I hope I do not have to account for the spending on "edifaces" while the "hungry and homeless and sick and poor " were crying out for help.

[Rags123]

The same can be said for all of downtown Clearwater which is owned by the Scientologists.

Actually, and I am doing this from memory, they own about 60 or so properties and ONLY those used for "religious purposes" are exempt.

I THINK that amounted to about 2/3 of the properties that they own. When they buy a hotel it is not exempt from taxes, and trust me I am not a defender of this "religion" because they will do whatever is necessary to shield their income. They often used false names and shell corporations to make buys.

Glad this came up as folks are posting about the "church" and wonder what "church" they refer to when they say that so generically.

[Bavarian]

Shall we talk about all non profits? I don't like stuff that isn't what it is supposed to be. I don't like that Westboro Baptist Church. I do like St. Timothy's. Is that too big? Where do we stop with this stuff? Shall we talk about Bingo? Shall we talk about having to pay membership to a church? Now I can get into that discussion. I don't like Bingo in places of worship to make money. I don't like sushi.

BUT I REALLY don't like the tone of this at all. I do not like anti-religious anything just because you aren't religious. UNLESS the religion is out to slit your throat.

It just isn't how I was raised. If you are not religious, than don't be, but don't be hateful.

Goooooooooooood Morning Villages. The natives are restless.

Ditto. The money raised goes to Charity.

[sunnyatlast]

I don't like local church monies going up the chain to national and international headquarters where the big shots do "who knows what" with it. But there is no denying what religious charities like Catholic Charities accomplish for the common welfare of society:

"RELIGIOUS institutions in America are not required to report income or spending. In the absence of co-ordination among local and national church organisations and their subsequent co-operation with The Economist, we attempted to estimate the total economic heft of the Catholic church in America by constructing a national operating budget. Here is a back-of-the-envelope calculation.

The $170 billion total was derived by adding together the following:

Health care: $98.6 billion was reportedly spent by members of the Catholic Health Association of the United States.

Education: publicly available operating budgets for the 244 Catholic colleges and universities (for those whose budgets where unavailable or out-of-date or had closed, we drew up estimates based on those of comparable institutions) add up to $48.8 billion

Parish disbursements: we calculated a national estimate by grossing up incomplete numbers provided by the Center for the Applied Research on the Apostolate at Georgetown University. Total: $11 billion. [This would probably include Catholic K-12 parish schools, which reduce the local public school districts' income/expenditure needs greatly].

Charities: we used the total annual budget of Catholic Charities USA, which includes all of its local subsidiaries (but not other local charities) and amounts to $4.7 billion….."

The Catholic church in America: The working | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2012/08/catholic-church-america)

[CFrance]

Ditto. The money raised goes to Charity.
I'm not sure that applies across the board. What about that archbishop in Atlanta with the 2.2 million dollar mansion? And good ole Jim and Tammy Faye Baker (BTW he's out of jail and trying to start up again in Michigan) and their ilk?

[DougB]

I'm not sure that applies across the board. What about that archbishop in Atlanta with the 2.2 million dollar mansion? And good ole Jim and Tammy Faye Baker (BTW he's out of jail and trying to start up again in Michigan) and their ilk?

Just a drop in the bucket compared to the Pope's 1.21 billion dollar mansion.

[Bonanza]

Somewhere along the line, my original post on this thread that encompassed "places of worship," was turned into churches only. I have seen Christian churches of all types, synogogues, Greek Orthodox churches, mosques, etc., which fall into the category of what I consider "overkill" in terms of what these places look like and cost and the reason for their very being.

If posters want to be specific regarding a place of worship -- fine. But please don't think being specific was my intent. {;o)

[njbchbum]

I don't like local church monies going up the chain to national and international headquarters where the big shots do "who knows what" with it.
snipped



Funny - I feel the same way about all of the government taxes that we pay!

[njbchbum]

I've often seen places of worship throughout the country that are beyond grand. Obviously, I'm not speaking about the small neighborhood places, or even the even lesser noticed places where services are held in a rented store front.

I'm speaking about the ostentatious "architectural palaces" which are built with incredible stained glass windows, manicured landscaping and gardens, night-scape lighting, imported woods and stone . . . the list goes on as have the costs which range in the many millions. Many of these places are built in prime real estate areas where they are exempt from taxation.

What are your thoughts regarding places of worship being exempt from taxes?
If you believe they shouldn't be, how should they be taxed?


What justification can you offer for taxing the "ostentatious architectural palace" from the not ostentatious despite all structures being attached to a religious denomination?

Why is what is good for one not good for another?

[Tobys Dad]

Tax them, to me they are nothing but money hungry businesses. Those who enjoy spending their money on churches are more than welcome to do it. To each their own.

[Bavarian]

I'm not sure that applies across the board. What about that archbishop in Atlanta with the 2.2 million dollar mansion? And good ole Jim and Tammy Faye Baker (BTW he's out of jail and trying to start up again in Michigan) and their ilk?

So, you would throw the baby out with the bath water.
I do not know the Archbishop in Atlanta you speak of, but if Catholic, Pope Francis will in all likelihood remove him like he did the bishop of Limburg.
The Bakers were televangisist, and their own "church".

Now the comment re the Vatican. The Vatican buildings are museums also of ancient art that artists in the middle ages created for The Church as a gift to God of their time and talent.

The beautiful Churches are designed and built to bring the Faithful closer to God.

To those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who disbelieve, no answer will suffice.

[graciegirl]

This is a better argument than I could write.

http://townhall.com/news/religion/2012/03/12/firstperson_why_should_churches_be_taxexempt

[gap2415]

What a hardened world we now live in.

The majority of churches are not castles and every pastor cannot be painted with the same brush as the few fallen pastors.

The vast majority of churches and ministers do so much good!



This is a better argument than I could write.

FIRST-PERSON: Why should churches be tax-exempt? - Baptist Press 3/12/2012 3:22 PM (http://townhall.com/news/religion/2012/03/12/firstperson_why_should_churches_be_taxexempt)

[old moe]

The law which granted them the tax exempt status was given to them if they did not enter the world of politics, such as endorsing of not endorsing. Every year the church ignores the agreement ...

:yuck::yuck:Don't know what church you attend?, or not, but we go to a Catholic Church even when we travel and have NEVER HEARD a Priest talk politics in any of them. :bowdown::bowdown:

[Bonanza]

What justification can you offer for taxing the "ostentatious architectural palace" from the not ostentatious despite all structures being attached to a religious denomination?

Why is what is good for one not good for another?

I don't have to give you justification! The ostentatious architectural palaces are the ones that stick in one's mind. The 20' x 35' little box down some dirt road are the ones you don't remember.

What is good for one IS good for the other, however.

I have always been a believer that the real estate part (land and structure) of houses of worship should be taxed. These grand mausoleums which are constructed because of someone's ego (?) do not have to be built with the best of everything. To begin with, let's go back to the basic reason for their existence.

[CFrance]

I don't have to give justification! The ostentatious architectural palaces are the ones that stick in one's mind. The 20' x 35' little box down some dirt road are the ones you don't remember.

What is good for one IS good for the other, however.

I have always been a believer that the real estate part (land and structure)of houses of worship should be taxed. These grand mausoleums which are constructed because of someone's ego (?) do not have to be built with the best of everything. To begin with, let's go back to their basic reason for being.

I agree with you. Tax them all. Except for the portion of their properties that are used for schools. And tax them all at the same rate as other structures. Let their pocketbooks then decide how big they can be.

Look at the Crystal Cathedral in LA, for example. Outrageous, and its church ultimately filed for bankruptcy, only to have this monstrosity bought by the Catholic Church, which has started renovations. Someone said the money the church makes is given to charity. I guess the"minus" the money used to pay for this edifice and its renovation.

[blueash]

My opinion is that it would have been better to have created a Constitution which specified that all property be taxed. However that is not what we have. The SCOTUS has settled this issue. Church property is not taxable. It is the flip side of the wall of separation. The power to tax a church is the power to destroy a church.

Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walz_v._Tax_Commission_of_the_City_of_New_York)

Things get tricky when the church owns a hospital or a store. It gets tricky when I claim my house is a church for my religion of one person. It gets tricky when what some don't think is a church buys a big piece of their city.

Could an argument be made that the church gets fire protection, gets it's streets plowed and resurfaced, gets government subsidized electricity and gas. And that the cost of those and all the other government services is having to be picked up by taxpayers who may have far less (or more) ability to pay. Why should I be paying to supply fire protection to a church?
That is the argument rejected by the Court in Walz as the justices felt the entanglement of forcing citizens to support a church via their taxes was less problematic than allowing direct taxation of the churches. Justice Douglas dissented arguing the opposite.

Maybe we just should have an amenity fee and a bond applied to every structure built. Hmm

[onslowe]

An awful lot of drum banging here today, as Gracie and I predicted. Some humble thoughts:

1. No one has talked about the 1st Amendment, even in the mistaken use given by the anti-churchers and anti-religionists.

2. That amendment also says that Congress may make no law 'impeding' the free exercise of religion. Maybe that's the hoped for result: churches will go bankrupt (especially with the curious statements about 'tax them all at the same rate' as other real estate. Hmm, maybe the church would close down or wither away, and some dark victory could be achieved.

3. The beautiful medieval cathedrals are one example of mankind expressing its adoration and worship of God. I think that most churches today, big or small, in many ways duplicate that feeling.

4. I think the word 'mausoleum' was used to refer to churches and church property. I'm sure that was an error.

5. I personally do not agree with the lack of good example, good sense, and good taste displayed by many bishops and other clergy. But, I thankfully can separate those comparatively few misdeeds from this thread's focussed attack on church tax exemption.

6. The stridency of some posts here, and an accompanying lack of coherence or plain and simple thought leads me to be assured that there are ulterior motives present far away from selfless 'civic' duty of American citizens still living under a battered but still strong Constitution.

My post is edited to reflect fact that it was posted after Blueash's post above and its reference to the 1st Amendment.

[njbchbum]

Thank you blueash and onslowe! Could not agree with you each more!

[gpirate]

All the NFL team owners and players pay taxes. The NFL League Office doesn't because it is classified as a Trade Organization.

All of the congregation and pastors and other employees of the church pay taxes as well. I rest my case.

[gpirate]

All the NFL team owners and players pay taxes. The NFL League Office doesn't because it is classified as a Trade Organization.

All of the congregation and pastors and other employees of the church pay taxes as well. Looks like a wash to thoughts above. I rest my case.

[Happydaz]

When the early immigrants arrived in the USA they built plain churches in New England and in the cities they built beautiful cathedrals with gorgeous stained glass windows. My wife and I love to visit churches around the world and are awed by the beautiful architecture, statues, and paintings that all have a religious and spiritual theme. Such beauty! Today when churches are built they often are much plainer and less costly. We just had a large church built to house the huge number of parishioners that have joined the church, and this church is beautiful in its simplicity and has no costly stained glass windows. I, personally, wish they could have gotten some from a closed, inner city church, but that is not to be. Those early immigrants who pitched in to fund and build those inner city churches loved their congregations and sacrificed financially because they believed and had faith in their chosen religion.

I think we should continue to allow non profits such as churches and 501 3c organizations to remain tax exempt. I love that we have these organizations. They help so many people and without their work our government would have to step in and fund some of their work and this would be very expensive.

[Rags123]

Quite an inspiring thread.

One thread just to attack certain or all religions, while of course excluding from attack professional sports.

One thread to attack the wisdom of our founding fathers, the Supreme Court, and many other government offices.

One thread to talk about so many cliches about certain religions.

And of course a thread to attack other posters.

Inspiring for sure.

[Tobys Dad]

Disagree that it is a first amendment issue. Taxing the business of religion, and as I see it, it is most certainly a business, is the correct thing to do. Our tax laws are a joke. I work weekly at a church, I see the constant cries for money. Some times up to 3 separate collections. Just does not seem right to me. Like everyone else, pay your taxes and live within your means.

[graciegirl]

Quite an inspiring thread.

One thread just to attack certain or all religions, while of course excluding from attack professional sports.

One thread to attack the wisdom of our founding fathers, the Supreme Court, and many other government offices.

One thread to talk about so many cliches about certain religions.

And of course a thread to attack other posters.

Inspiring for sure.



Thank you Rags. This thread has been enlightening in many depressing ways.

[Bavarian]

When the early immigrants arrived in the USA they built plain churches in New England and in the cities they built beautiful cathedrals with gorgeous stained glass windows. My wife and I love to visit churches around the world and are awed by the beautiful architecture, statues, and paintings that all have a religious and spiritual theme. Such beauty! Today when churches are built they often are much plainer and less costly. We just had a large church built to house the huge number of parishioners that have joined the church, and this church is beautiful in its simplicity and has no costly stained glass windows. I, personally, wish they could have gotten some from a closed, inner city church, but that is not to be. Those early immigrants who pitched in to fund and build those inner city churches loved their congregations and sacrificed financially because they believed and had faith in their chosen religion.

I think we should continue to allow non profits such as churches and 501 3c organizations to remain tax exempt. I love that we have these organizations. They help so many people and without their work our government would have to step in and fund some of their work and this would be very expensive.

The Church I grew up in Philadelphia is closed, was beautiful. Maybe we should ask Father Peter if we can try to get some of the old stain glassed windows from closed churches. Wouldn't need the blinds to block the sunlight at the 8.

[Happydaz]

The Church I grew up in Philadelphia is closed, was beautiful. Maybe we should ask Father Peter if we can try to get some of the old stain glassed windows from closed churches. Wouldn't need the blinds to block the sunlight at the 8.

I have a cousin who is a professor at Holy Cross and is a stained glass expert. One interesting fact is that she has gone out West in the US to study stained glass. During the 1800's European churches that closed sold their stained glass to American churches. Maybe we could recycle some of those beautiful windows. I think it is great idea!

[justjim]

The same can be said for all of downtown Clearwater which is owned by the Scientologists.

My bet is that the Jacksonville First Baptist gives more to the community of Jacksonville than it would pay in property taxes----if that was the law.
And I am not a Baptist---for what it's worth.
Further, the same could be said about many many churches.

[outlaw]

No entity, company, or person should be tax exempt.

[gap2415]

So many large churches have to close down due to lack of funds; smaller churches are often funded by an umbrella church (if they have one) and most of the others (with some few exceptions) put most of their money into good projects. The buildings are open to everyone even if now you may scorn them but later change your mind. They belong to the people, rich and poor, sick or healthy, sinner or proclaimed saint. They are a refuge for everyone, some for worship, some for needed companionship they cannot find anywhere else, some for desperate need unavailable in other places.
People forget that in the beginning churches often started the first schools in communities, hospitals, social work programs and so on until governments took over schools and hospitals and so on but then, it is so Freudian for a son to turn against his parent and forget.
IMHO I humbly hope they are never taxed for it may well hasten the closing of doors of many more that have and still do such good work. I can see exempting the church itself while other certain related buildings taxed.