Tennessee Promise: Offering free community college to all students

[tomwed]

I was coming back from golf today listening to NPR. The discussion and Q&A was about Tennessee's free tuition plan. The expert says it costs Tennessee a thousand dollars per student to make this work. Students must maintain a 2.5 GPA and they can choose trade or technology courses too.

For me cheap college was the light at the end of my tunnel and it kept me busy. A little off topic but I sold a house to someone who said the first thing he's going to do after they move in is buy his 12 year old son a horse. He said you can't get in trouble if you are busy and nothing will keep a teenager more busy then owning a horse.

for more information click here (http://republic3-0.com/tennessee-promise-free-community-college-for-all-students/)

[tomwed]

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[sunnyatlast]

Florida Residents' State Scholarship and Grant Programs:

http://www.floridastudentfinancialaid.org/SSFAD/home/uamain.htm

[jbdlfan]

Fantastic idea. Tying it to community service is key. Here in Florida, we have the Bright Futures that helps somewhat but severely lags behind the current costs. It's great for the kids in the middle.

[rubicon]

What happens in Tennessee stays in Tennessee....oops Obama's objective of free community college is a take off of that program and it is going to be a catastrophe for taxpayers. First Obama nationalized the student loan market adding $1 trillion in taxpayer liabilities. Then he made forgiving those loans easier which will cost taxpayers $7.6 billion in 2015 when it predicted in 2010 a 10 year $7.4 billion This year he proposes a new rating system to determine which schools the feds will give aid to.

Further there are already several federal financial assistance training programs for community colleges in existence now.

[jbdlfan]

What happens in Tennessee stays in Tennessee....oops Obama's objective of free community college is a take off of that program and it is going to be a catastrophe for taxpayers. First Obama nationalized the student loan market adding $1 trillion in taxpayer liabilities. Then he made forgiving those loans easier which will cost taxpayers $7.6 billion in 2015 when it predicted in 2010 a 10 year $7.4 billion This year he proposes a new rating system to determine which schools the feds will give aid to.

Further there are already several federal financial assistance training programs for community colleges in existence now.

I have to disagree with your argument. The money is state money and if state money can fund such a juncture, why not? In the state of Florida, which severely lags behind academically, we need a more educated population. The kid in the middle of the road as far as income is concerned, is left to fend for themselves. The poor student has more aid than they will ever need and the wealthy kid doesn't have to worry either. The middle-class kid with average grades sees the least amount of aid available. Why not let them "work" for it through community service opportunities?

[tomwed]

The first half of my teaching career I was a shop teacher in NJ. We watched all of those programs being phased out. What a shame. Tell me our kids don't need shop skills. Our budgets for the entire year was about $200 a class. At the same time we were preaching to get a good job you need a good education. Kids borrowed thousands and thousands of dollars only to end up in debt with a liberal arts degree, not everyone but many.

This program seems like a way to make things right for young people. It gives me hope and as I said before the guy on NPR said that it is costing Tennessee about a thousand dollars a student.

[rubicon]

I have to disagree with your argument. The money is state money and if state money can fund such a juncture, why not? In the state of Florida, which severely lags behind academically, we need a more educated population. The kid in the middle of the road as far as income is concerned, is left to fend for themselves. The poor student has more aid than they will ever need and the wealthy kid doesn't have to worry either. The middle-class kid with average grades sees the least amount of aid available. Why not let them "work" for it through community service opportunities?

Hi jbdlfan: I am not questioning the Tennessee state plan. I agree with it and your rationale and in fact want the fed to cut back and stop superseding state rights. My point was to say that the fed is going to nationalize this state plan and we know that old story its going to cost taxpayers big bucks and because it is national it won't be monitored and it will be a complete failure like so many other fed programs

Personal Best Regards

[Challenger]

I was coming back from golf today listening to NPR. The discussion and Q&A was about Tennessee's free tuition plan. The expert says it costs Tennessee a thousand dollars per student to make this work. Students must maintain a 2.5 GPA and they can choose trade or technology courses too.

For me cheap college was the light at the end of my tunnel and it kept me busy. A little off topic but I sold a house to someone who said the first thing he's going to do after they move in is buy his 12 year old son a horse. He said you can't get in trouble if you are busy and nothing will keep a teenager more busy then owning a horse.

for more information click here (http://republic3-0.com/tennessee-promise-free-community-college-for-all-students/)

I served on the boards of a community college for four years and a university for 15 years. I don't see how a state can provide 3/4 of the costs incured by a CC student for $1000 per year. My suspicion is that it would exceed $7000 for full time students. The mandates imposed by the Feds would no doubt be unpalatable to many communities. How many programs have we seen where the Feds create a program, suck in cash hungry constituents, then abandon the effort leaving states and cities holding the bag? The devil is,as always, in the details.:MOJE_whot:

[tomwed]

SShhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! You're not supposed to mention pesky things like "taxpayer liability" and this, below!

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46974&stc=1&d=1421094424

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time (http://www.usdebtclock.org)

..
Don't you want more people making more money to pay off the debt? How can you make more money without a high paying job? How can you get a high paying job without skills?

I invested in my children's education and 2 out of 3 are making 6 figures. They went to NJIT, a state school with a more reasonable tuition, majored in Engineering and worked part time in college. I invested a lot more then a thousand a year. This also looks like a great investment to me.

I think the real problem is that students can't wait to start studying when they get to a free college. It has to begin when they are 4 or 5 years old. I think we need to somehow tie free college into all of the years leading up to college. Kids need to see the pay-off of studying.

I'm not sure how to do that.

[rubicon]

The first half of my teaching career I was a shop teacher in NJ. We watched all of those programs being phased out. What a shame. Tell me our kids don't need shop skills. Our budgets for the entire year was about $200 a class. At the same time we were preaching to get a good job you need a good education. Kids borrowed thousands and thousands of dollars only to end up in debt with a liberal arts degree, not everyone but many.

This program seems like a way to make things right for young people. It gives me hope and as I said before the guy on NPR said that it is costing Tennessee about a thousand dollars a student.

tomwed: I agree many of the blue collar positions have become high paying jobs and many are going unfilled

[tomwed]

I served on the boards of a community college for four years and a university for 15 years. I don't see how a state can provide 3/4 of the costs incured by a CC student for $1000 per year. My suspicion is that it would exceed $7000 for full time students. The mandates imposed by the Feds would no doubt be unpalatable to many communities. How many programs have we seen where the Feds create a program, suck in cash hungry constituents, then abandon the effort leaving states and cities holding the bag? The devil is,as always, in the details.:MOJE_whot:

I don't get it either. It sounds too inexpensive, too good to be true. I'm going to try and figure out what actual show on NPR I was listening to today. I think it was around 12:30. It was just starting to rain.
I got it. It's called the take-away and you can listen to the broadcast by clicking here (http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/the-takeaway-2015-01-12/) It's about 20 minutes in the program. It's called Tennessee Promise. They started it in 2008.

[rubicon]

Don't you want more people making more money to pay off the debt? How can you make more money without a high paying job? How can you get a high paying job without skills?

I invested in my children's education and 2 out of 3 are making 6 figures. They went to NJIT, a state school with a more reasonable tuition, majored in Engineering and worked part time in college. I invested a lot more then a thousand a year. This also looks like a great investment to me.

I think the real problem is that students can't wait to start studying when they get to a free college. It has to begin when they are 4 or 5 years old. I think we need to somehow tie free college into all of the years leading up to college. Kids need to see the pay-off of studying.

I'm not sure how to do that.

1. I funded my way through school and like you my children.

2. Many prospective students need skin in the game

3. It doesn't matter if more people are making more money because if the pols continue with their irrational exuberance their won't ever be enough taxpayer money to keep up with them

[tomwed]

1. I funded my way through school and like you my children.

2. Many prospective students need skin in the game

3. It doesn't matter if more people are making more money because if the pols continue with their irrational exuberance their won't ever be enough taxpayer money to keep up with them

How much was your tuition? Mine was $350 a year. I'm guessing all my college living expenses came out to $2,500 a year and my first year teaching my contract was $10,400.
How does that compare to today's tuition and today's first year teaching contracts? It's not even close. But you are a smart person and you know all that.

Sure they need skin in the game. Free tuition does not mean every college expense and living expense is free. You know that too, you raised kids.

[Sandtrap328]

What happens in Tennessee stays in Tennessee....oops Obama's objective of free community college is a take off of that program and it is going to be a catastrophe for taxpayers. First Obama nationalized the student loan market adding $1 trillion in taxpayer liabilities. Then he made forgiving those loans easier which will cost taxpayers $7.6 billion in 2015 when it predicted in 2010 a 10 year $7.4 billion This year he proposes a new rating system to determine which schools the feds will give aid to.

Further there are already several federal financial assistance training programs for community colleges in existence now.

Come on now, don't be bashful. Tell us what you really think!

[sunnyatlast]

Don't you want more people making more money to pay off the debt? How can you make more money without a high paying job? How can you get a high paying job without skills?…….


I meant that "SShhhhhhhh…" sarcastically.

I think we should be looking at the existing state tuition assistance programs and making them more known to high-school students, especially in the vocational and trades classes that most kids are not even encouraged to look at.

Our kids are recent college graduates and they and most of their peers were told nothing about vocational/trades curriculum and the fact that some of the coursework can be taken while doing college prep curriculum in high school.

Of course, we wanted our kids to become working taxpayers! We started saving for college the month our first child was born. They didn't qualify for financial aid and we gladly paid their tuition, room and board…..AND they worked summers and holidays all the way thru college. They are on their own with their careers because they are independent-minded and have a work ethic that says "I can do it myself!". That didn't come by accident. We worked on it every single day, reminding ourselves that kids tune in more on what you do than what you say.

As someone said above, it's the kids in the middle income brackets with working parents who need assistance the most. Adding to their parents' "tax liability" and knowing the spending and tax-legislating appetites of legislators, these families will be hurt, not helped by more federal "help" being touted.

[tomwed]

I meant that "SShhhhhhhh…" sarcastically.

I think we should be looking at the existing state tuition assistance programs and making them more known to high-school students, especially in the vocational and trades classes that most kids are not even encouraged to look at.

Our kids are recent college graduates and they and most of their peers were told nothing about vocational/trades curriculum and the fact that some of the coursework can be taken while doing college prep curriculum in high school.

We started saving for college the month our first child was born. They didn't qualify for financial aid and we gladly paid their tuition, room and board…..AND they worked summers and holidays all the way thru college. They are on their own with their careers because they are independent-minded and have a work ethic that says "I can do it myself!". That didn't come by accident. We worked on it every single day, reminding ourselves that kids tune in more on what you do than what you say.

As someone said above, it's the kids in the middle income brackets with working parents who need assistance the most. Adding to their parents' "tax liability" and knowing the spending and tax-legislating appetites of legislators, these families will be hurt, not helped by more federal "help" being touted.

I'm sorry. I'm not good at picking up sarcasm on-line.
Are you saying that middle class families taxes will go up more then college tuition would cost their children?
Can you back that up?

[memason]

How is it that a country, like Germany can fully fund every student for either university or trade school education and we can't do it in this country.

Germany has the strongest economy in Europe and a huge exporter of manufactured goods of high quality. Taxes for workers are higher than in the US, to be sure, but there a lot more of them.

I worked in a manufacturing subsidiary of my company, in Germany and they had the highest skilled workforce I have ever seen. Every single employee was either a university graduate or tech school grad. ...and I do mean EVERY employee, right down to janitorial.

By the way, every one of those employees had free healthcare too...

I'm just astonished they can figure this out and we can't....

[dbussone]

How is it that a country, like Germany can fully fund every student for either university or trade school education and we can't do it in this country.

Germany has the strongest economy in Europe and a huge exporter of manufactured goods of high quality. Taxes for workers are higher than in the US, to be sure, but there a lot more of them.

I worked in a manufacturing subsidiary of my company, in Germany and they had the highest skilled workforce I have ever seen. Every single employee was either a university graduate or tech school grad. ...and I do mean EVERY employee, right down to janitorial.

By the way, every one of those employees had free healthcare too...

I'm just astonished they can figure this out and we can't....

For one thing, Germany and the other European countries have not had to bear the full cost of their defense. We have borne the brunt of much of the cost since the end of World War II. Let's also not forget that we bore the cost of rebuilding Germany after WWII.

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining and there is little I would change if I could. However I think it is only fair to note their ability to pay for other things. As an aside, several times over my career, I hosted German officials who felt their healthcare system was in a poor state and wanted to learn more about ours.

[sunnyatlast]

I'm sorry. I'm not good at picking up sarcasm on-line.
Are you saying that middle class families taxes will go up more then college tuition would cost their children?
Can you back that up?

No. I'm saying that middle class families' taxes are already too big of a burden because of all the other existing programs that are already in place in the states and federally, and because of their taxes going toward financing the lower-income students/families' education and increasing medical insurance costs before their own! It leaves little to put toward their own kids' college savings/costs while repaying the parents' own student loans and trying to pay for the family's higher medical insurance premiums and deductibles.

I like the sound of the president's proposal to give community college tuition "free", but knowing how Washington "manages" money, it's their "management results" that I worry about.

I don't know about what you're seeing, but I don't see middle-class tax burdens going down. And then there is inflation that is going to have to be unleashed at some point because of the elephant in the room: $18 trillion in national debt.

Again, I think we need to work on bolstering and making known the existing state college assistance programs, along with serious career-counseling all the way thru high school, about which most 20-somethings would ask "what's that"?

See: http://fortune.com/2012/11/20/why-college-grads-are-heading-back-to-community-college/

..

[Wandatime]

How is it that a country, like Germany can fully fund every student for either university or trade school education and we can't do it in this country.

Germany has the strongest economy in Europe and a huge exporter of manufactured goods of high quality. Taxes for workers are higher than in the US, to be sure, but there a lot more of them.

I worked in a manufacturing subsidiary of my company, in Germany and they had the highest skilled workforce I have ever seen. Every single employee was either a university graduate or tech school grad. ...and I do mean EVERY employee, right down to janitorial.

By the way, every one of those employees had free healthcare too...

I'm just astonished they can figure this out and we can't....

Actually, it isn't that we haven't figured it out. There are just a lot of us that don't want to invest money in the future of our country. If someone is uneducated, mentally ill, or physically sick and can't pay for it . . . too bad for them. We made our money and we're keeping it, and to hell with everyone else. A rising tide lifts all boats? Not on our watch.

Here's where the happiest people live and what they are doing differently from us:

http://unsdsn.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/WorldHappinessReport2013_online.pdf

[dbussone]

How much was your tuition? Mine was $350 a year. I'm guessing all my college living expenses came out to $2,500 a year and my first year teaching my contract was $10,400.
How does that compare to today's tuition and today's first year teaching contracts? It's not even close. But you are a smart person and you know all that.

Sure they need skin in the game. Free tuition does not mean every college expense and living expense is free. You know that too, you raised kids.

My grad school was $450 per credit hour. My son's tuition et al at Emory was $40,000 per year back in the 90's. I paid for my and my kids education 100%. No debt involved. I was blessed to be able to afford it. Couldn't do it now!

[B767drvr]

Actually, it isn't that we haven't figured it out. There are just a lot of us that don't want to invest money in the future of our country. If someone is uneducated, mentally ill, or physically sick and can't pay for it . . . too bad for them. We made our money and we're keeping it, and to hell with everyone else. A rising tide lifts all boats? Not on our watch.



This is one of those "just WOW" posts. Wanda, our nation is technically bankrupt. We are $18 TRILLION in Debt, have over $100 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities (bills without the money to pay them) and we currently borrow 44 cents out of every federal dollar spent. Please help me understand your post above where the US taxpayer has been unwilling to "invest" money in the future of our country.

To me, it sure sounds like we've gone crazy with the national credit card "investing in the future of our country". Please help me understand your position.

[tomwed]

My grad school was $450 per credit hour. My son's tuition et al at Emory was $40,000 per year back in the 90's. I paid for my and my kids education 100%. No debt involved. I was blessed to be able to afford it. Couldn't do it now!

What year and what grad school was $450 per credit hour? I went to school from 1970 to 1975.
Tuition History
What was tuition at Emory University five, ten, fifteen or twenty years ago? Hop into our time machine and take a look. Pay attention to how aggressive the school has been with price increases the past as it provides indication as to how the school may raise tuition in the next few years if you enrolled. Historical tuition and fees for all available data years back to 1988 follows.

Year Tuition Annual Increase
2010 $38,036 4.7%
2009 $36,336 5.8%
2008 $34,336 5.6%
2007 $32,506 5.6%
2006 $30,794 5%
2005 $29,322 4.9%
2004 $27,952 3.8%
2003 $26,932 5.4%
2002 $25,552 4.2%
2001 $24,532 6.1%
2000 $23,130 5.8%
1999 $21,870 3.6%
1998 $21,110 6.2%
1997 $19,870 4.6%
1996 $19,000 6.6%
1995 $17,830 6%
1994 $16,820 7.8%
1993 $15,600 7%
1992 $14,580 6.4%
1991 $13,700 10.4%
1990 $12,410 10.7%
1989 $11,210 10%
1988 $10,190 8.8%
1987 $9,370

You are a good dad. I couldn't afford Emory for my kids. I think the goal is that kids start out in a junior college and the best of the best end up at Emory. They may need to borrow 2 years of tuition but that's half of what they would have needed. These kids, our grandchildren may have the same kind of opportunity us boomers had. Doesn't that make you feel good?

[dbussone]

What year and what grad school was $450 per credit hour? I went to school from 1970 to 1975.
Tuition History
What was tuition at Emory University five, ten, fifteen or twenty years ago? Hop into our time machine and take a look. Pay attention to how aggressive the school has been with price increases the past as it provides indication as to how the school may raise tuition in the next few years if you enrolled. Historical tuition and fees for all available data years back to 1988 follows.

YearTuitionAnnual Increase
2010$38,0364.7%
2009$36,3365.8%
2008$34,3365.6%
2007$32,5065.6%
2006$30,7945%
2005$29,3224.9%
2004$27,9523.8%
2003$26,9325.4%
2002$25,5524.2%
2001$24,5326.1%
2000$23,1305.8%
1999$21,8703.6%
1998$21,1106.2%
1997$19,8704.6%
1996$19,0006.6%
1995$17,8306%
1994$16,8207.8%
1993$15,6007%
1992$14,5806.4%
1991$13,70010.4%
1990$12,41010.7%
1989$11,21010%
1988$10,1908.8%
1987$9,370

You are a good dad. I couldn't afford Emory for my kids.

Grad = Boston University Graduate School of Management. 1975 - 1978
Emory = 1994 - 1997 remember I said tuition et al. Et al covers board & room, books etc.

My daughter went to Ole Miss on 50% scholarship. That helped.

[tomwed]

Grad = Boston University Graduate School of Management. 1975 - 1978
Emory = 1994 - 1997 remember I said tuition et al. Et al covers board & room, books etc.

My daughter went to Ole Miss on 50% scholarship. That helped.
I guess I got lucky at Glassboro State College from 1970 to 1975 because while you were paying $450 a credit for a graduate degree, I was paying $5 a credit for an undergraduate degree.
I want it to be as easy for my grandchildren to get ahead as it was for me. This sounds like a plan that might work.

[dbussone]

I guess I got lucky at Glassboro State College from 1970 to 1975 because while you were paying $450 a credit for a graduate degree, I was paying $5 a credit for an undergraduate degree.
I want it to be as easy for my grandchildren to get ahead as it was for me. This sounds like a plan that might work.

I agree. I'd like it to be easy for my grandchildren as well. But I'd also like our kids to do as well as we have, avoiding wealth redistribution, so their kids have a choice

[tomwed]

I agree. I'd like it to be easy for my grandchildren as well. But I'd also like our kids to do as well as we have, avoiding wealth redistribution, so their kids have a choice
Can you explain wealth distribution to me?

[dbussone]

Can you explain wealth distribution to me?

Should be redistribution. It comes from increased taxes that produce revenue which the government then uses to create programs that dole it out to whomever the government believes is underserved in some sense. An example - some states print materials in 10+ languages in order remain PC and not require English as our primary language. This particular example is rampant throughout many areas of government

[Rags123]

Actually, it isn't that we haven't figured it out. There are just a lot of us that don't want to invest money in the future of our country. If someone is uneducated, mentally ill, or physically sick and can't pay for it . . . too bad for them. We made our money and we're keeping it, and to hell with everyone else. A rising tide lifts all boats? Not on our watch.

Here's where the happiest people live and what they are doing differently from us:

http://unsdsn.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/WorldHappinessReport2013_online.pdf

I did notice on the attached link that Germany, who pays for tuition is a bit lower in the happy rankings than the USA.

There are VAST differences in countries. Someone mentioned about our military, which has become the world policeman. We spend, and these are estimates about twice as much or more on defense. We pay less taxes than in Germany. The cost of an education is mucho less than in the United States. I think that in Germany, you must choose a major NEVER to be changed.

It is just a different experience in going to college in Germany, and believe it or not, not that high of a percentage go to college. The entire college experience is so much different than in the USA.

Instead of going right to FREE, we should just make it easier and cheaper. Remember the Tenn program began with private funds being used in certain counties and has now become a proposal for the state. It also covers ONLY tuition, not books, not housing, etc.

Just wonderings as I think about this. To make it seem as if the USA is doing something so underhanded I reject. We are so far in debt in this country right now, the financial future is so bleak. If we want to do a favor for young people, get the spending in hand so there is something for them to even have.

Maybe, if they ever talk to each other about tax structure, we can incorporate something in that but nobody wants to talk about that. We do have limits in this country

[Wandatime]

By just about all accounts, getting our debt under control requires reducing spending in three main areas: Medicare, medicaid, and social security.

In a June 2010 opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan noted that "Only politically toxic cuts or rationing of medical care, a marked rise in the eligible age for health and retirement benefits, or significant inflation, can close the deficit."[75] If significant reforms are not undertaken, benefits under entitlement programs will exceed government income by over $40 trillion over the next 75 years.[74]

74. United States Congress, Government Accountability Office (December 17, 2007). FY 2007 Financial Report of the U.S. Government, p. 47, et al. U.S. Government Accountability Office (U.S. GAO) (http://www.gao.gov). Retrieved February 3, 2011.

75. Greenspan, Alan (June 18, 2010). "U.S. Debt and the Greece analogy". Opinion Journal [online]. Retrieved February 3, 2011.

Any takers? Anyone willing to get their medicare or social security significantly reduced for the good of the country?

[dbussone]

By just about all accounts, getting our debt under control requires reducing spending in three main areas: Medicare, medicaid, and social security.

In a June 2010 opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan noted that "Only politically toxic cuts or rationing of medical care, a marked rise in the eligible age for health and retirement benefits, or significant inflation, can close the deficit."[75] If significant reforms are not undertaken, benefits under entitlement programs will exceed government income by over $40 trillion over the next 75 years.[74]

74. United States Congress, Government Accountability Office (December 17, 2007). FY 2007 Financial Report of the U.S. Government, p. 47, et al. U.S. Government Accountability Office (U.S. GAO) (http://www.gao.gov). Retrieved February 3, 2011.

75. Greenspan, Alan (June 18, 2010). "U.S. Debt and the Greece analogy". Opinion Journal [online]. Retrieved February 3, 2011.

Any takers? Anyone willing to get their medicare or social security significantly reduced for the good of the country?

Perhaps if the thieves in Congress and the WH could leave trust funds alone, these would not be necessary. And while we are talking abut trust funds, whatever happened to the highway funds that are paid for by federal and state taxes on fuel.

[Rags123]

By just about all accounts, getting our debt under control requires reducing spending in three main areas: Medicare, medicaid, and social security.

In a June 2010 opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan noted that "Only politically toxic cuts or rationing of medical care, a marked rise in the eligible age for health and retirement benefits, or significant inflation, can close the deficit."[75] If significant reforms are not undertaken, benefits under entitlement programs will exceed government income by over $40 trillion over the next 75 years.[74]

74. United States Congress, Government Accountability Office (December 17, 2007). FY 2007 Financial Report of the U.S. Government, p. 47, et al. U.S. Government Accountability Office (U.S. GAO) (http://www.gao.gov). Retrieved February 3, 2011.

75. Greenspan, Alan (June 18, 2010). "U.S. Debt and the Greece analogy". Opinion Journal [online]. Retrieved February 3, 2011.

Any takers? Anyone willing to get their medicare or social security significantly reduced for the good of the country?

I agree totally with all that you present,

Keep in mind, that all social security reductions, AND THERE WILL BE THOSE DEDUCTIONS and all the other you mention will not effect those already in those programs.

What we need is leaders with the moxie to do the right thing. This has been proposed over and over and over and always never makes it to the floor.

You are correct and it will happen or we go down the tube. Anyone with any knowledge will agree, which is why I am amazed at how we just propose spending...NEW ones I am speaking of, like the college tutition, etc. We cannot afford it.

And not wanting to get p.......l BUT the Affordable Care Act is getting more expensive and health costs are going UP not down. Health care is one of the biggest parts of the GDP and needs to come down. We need someone to start to worry about our children and grandchildren. They,already will be wallowing in debt for so long.

Then today while folks are talking about our manufacturing rebirth, on CNBC, they issue this...

"the employment participation rate remains near historic lows. CNBC's Scott Cohn reports one new study calls the idea of a renaissance in manufacturing a myth. "

Manufacturing myth? (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000345929&play=1)

All you say is correct. My opinion we need to get back to the basics...tax reform...employment....ALL entitlement programs reviewed. There are a lot of unpopular items to be discussed that have been skirted for sometime now.

[chachacha]

it is my humble opinion that this sudden interest in reducing the cost of tuition for young people is a panacea to keep that demographic, who largely voted republican in the midterms. they are dismayed at the cost of their health insurance, and they have yet to figure out that the subsidies they may receive for health insurance will soon prove to be taxable income when they do their taxes. so throw them a bone with tuition help. never mind that we are already trillions in debt.

[B767drvr]

I'm confused. Are we selfish and have failed to invest in our country's future or have we overspent and over-invested in our future?

Is the "greatest generation" the greediest generation? Is that the assertion someone is suggesting?

Clearly, our nation's finances are on an unsustainable trajectory of ever-increasing debt. Is it immoral to ring up debt without any intention to repay it? Perhaps it's far more immoral to ring up debt, have no intention of repaying within your lifetime, but FORCE your debt to be repaid by your children, grandchildren and even those yet to be born.

If we can't begin to repay the debt we have now within a lifetime, how moral and reasonable is it to keep piling on more via expensive new programs of free tuition, etc…? When does the insanity stop? When do we stop kicking the debt can down the road? Do some not understand that we are enslaving future generations to a poorer quality of life to pay for our folly?

[Wandatime]

I'm confused. Are we selfish and have failed to invest in our country's future or have we overspent and over-invested in our future?

Is the "greatest generation" the greediest generation? Is that the assertion someone is suggesting?

Clearly, our nation's finances are on an unsustainable trajectory of ever-increasing debt. Is it immoral to ring up debt without any intention to repay it? Perhaps it's far more immoral to ring up debt, have no intention of repaying within your lifetime, but FORCE your debt to be repaid by your children, grandchildren and even those yet to be born.

If we can't begin to repay the debt we have now within a lifetime, how moral and reasonable is it to keep piling on more via expensive new programs of free tuition, etc…? When does the insanity stop? When do we stop kicking the debt can down the road? Do some not understand that we are enslaving future generations to a poorer quality of life to pay for our folly?

Both.

[Wandatime]

Let me be more specific. We've invested in all the wrong things. Certainly not education or infrastructure to name two, but we bail out unscrupulous companies (lenders, etc.).

[Wandatime]

B767drvr, I have a feeling you and I are going to just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. No worries! It takes all kinds to make the world turn.

[VT2TV]

First of all, for years I have been in favor of all kids going to a 2 year community college to get their basics in, work and save some money, and not have to pay-or have someone pay 40K for 2 years to party. But, I read an analysis by someone yesterday that says this does for the college tuitions what has been done by Obamacare for health. This "free" community college is going to cost the taxpayers a boat load of money. And the "work" requirements for this priviledge is not what it seems. I would like to think this is a wonderful idea would really work, but apparently a lot of students according to the article have already said, NO THANKS, OBAMA-you have lied to us too many times already. I am certainly not an authority, but before you think this is a wonderful idea-read about. Maybe you will see things the author did not see.

[sunnyatlast]

it is my humble opinion that this sudden interest in reducing the cost of tuition for young people is a panacea to keep that demographic, who largely voted republican in the midterms. they are dismayed at the cost of their health insurance, and they have yet to figure out that the subsidies they may receive for health insurance will soon prove to be taxable income when they do their taxes. so throw them a bone with tuition help. never mind that we are already trillions in debt.

BINGO!

Throw 'em a bone and assume they're too dumb or lazy to figure out where the money will eventually come from: their paychecks, if they can get/keep a job.

[tomwed]

Someone asked about the Greatest Generation also being the Greediest.

"The Greatest Generation" is a term coined by journalist Tom Brokaw to describe the generation[1] who grew up in the United States during the deprivation of the Great Depression, and then went on to fight in World War II, as well as those whose productivity within the war's home front made a decisive material contribution to the war effort, for which the generation is also termed the G.I. Generation.

The Boomers were nicknamed the Greediest Generation.

Boomers had low tuition educations, higher paying jobs, and houses were more affordable. The American Dream was easily attainable for me and my friends; especially if our wives worked too.

Free tuition seems to be working in Germany and they have a balanced budget click here (http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-government-achieves-balanced-budget-earlier-than-planned-1421139601)

I guess I was looking for some college plan that would give the jobskills needed today for high paying jobs and maybe recreate life as it was when I was young. It doesn't seem as hopeful for young people. Does it?

[B767drvr]

Someone asked about the Greatest Generation also being the Greediest.

"The Greatest Generation" is a term coined by journalist Tom Brokaw to describe the generation[1] who grew up in the United States during the deprivation of the Great Depression, and then went on to fight in World War II, as well as those whose productivity within the war's home front made a decisive material contribution to the war effort, for which the generation is also termed the G.I. Generation.

The Boomers were nicknamed the Greediest Generation.

Boomers had low tuition educations, higher paying jobs, and houses were more affordable. The American Dream was easily attainable for me and my friends; especially if our wives worked too.

Free tuition seems to be working in Germany and they have a balanced budget click here (http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-government-achieves-balanced-budget-earlier-than-planned-1421139601)

I guess I was looking for some college plan that would give the jobskills needed today for high paying jobs and maybe recreate life as it was when I was young. It doesn't seem as hopeful for young people. Does it?


Social security and medicare are the biggest drivers of the federal budget. Social security became law in 1935 (boomers definitely not to blame - weren't even born yet.) Medicare became law in 1966 (boomers were children - not the politicians that voted for it.)

[sunnyatlast]

Someone asked about the Greatest Generation also being the Greediest.

"The Greatest Generation" is a term coined by journalist Tom Brokaw to describe the generation[1] who grew up in the United States during the deprivation of the Great Depression, and then went on to fight in World War II, as well as those whose productivity within the war's home front made a decisive material contribution to the war effort, for which the generation is also termed the G.I. Generation.

The Boomers were nicknamed the Greediest Generation.

Boomers had low tuition educations, higher paying jobs, and houses were more affordable. The American Dream was easily attainable for me and my friends; especially if our wives worked too.

Free tuition seems to be working in Germany and they have a balanced budget click here (http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-government-achieves-balanced-budget-earlier-than-planned-1421139601)

I guess I was looking for some college plan that would give the jobskills needed today for high paying jobs and maybe recreate life as it was when I was young. It doesn't seem as hopeful for young people. Does it?

When you and I (a few years younger) were young, it was not a "college plan" of financing that prepared people to be skilled entrants to a well-paid job and career. It was upbringing at home and school that taught us to:

-work, earn and save for what we wanted to buy;

-"obey" authorities, like teachers, policemen and employers;

-do your chores and homework on time;

-expect to hear at home: "If you get into trouble at school, you're in trouble at home, too. We're not going in there to run interference for you, and do not blame the teacher. Own up to it and take your punishment and learn from it."

- "Live within your means"

- Show up on time every time, and don't punch out from work until after quitting time.

- The customer is always right.

- This is how you make change when the cash register isn't working to tell you the exact amount in change.

- If you don't know the answer, admit you don't know and say "But I'll try to find out".

AND:

- "Pot makes you stupid."

It probably sounds simplistic, but those are the lessons missing from the upbringing of people I know who did not take advantage of those cheaper college options we had, and now they moan about "The system is rigged" and it's somebody else's fault, not their own.

[tomwed]

When you and I (a few years younger) were young, it was not a "college plan" of financing that prepared people to be skilled entrants to a well-paid job and career. It was upbringing at home and school that taught us to:

-work, earn and save for what we wanted to buy;

-"obey" authorities, like teachers, policemen and employers;

-do your chores and homework on time;

-expect to hear at home: "If you get into trouble at school, you're in trouble at home, too. We're not going in there to run interference for you, and do not blame the teacher. Own up to it and take your punishment and learn from it."

- "Live within your means"

- Show up on time every time, and don't punch out from work until after quitting time.

- The customer is always right.

- This is how you make change when the cash register isn't working to tell you the exact amount in change.

- If you don't know the answer, admit you don't know and say "But I'll try to find out".

It probably sounds simplistic, but those are the lessons missing from the upbringing of people I know who did not take advantage of those cheaper college options we had, and now they moan about "The system is rigged" and it's somebody else's fault, not their own.

We share the same values. My children do to.

If the question is how do you prepare kids for high paying jobs then a reasonable answer is to provide them with a free education. Their higher salaries will be taxed and they will also contribute to Social Security. The problem is how do you tie that to their first 12 years of schooling so they are moving towards that goal and not looking at a life working for minimal wages.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm trying to find out.

[Rags123]

We share the same values. My children do to.

If the question is how do you prepare kids for high paying jobs then a reasonable answer is to provide them with a free education. Their higher salaries will be taxed and they will also contribute to Social Security. The problem is how do you tie that to their first 12 years of schooling so they are moving towards that goal and not looking at a life working for minimal wages.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm trying to find out.

AND how or who pays for that "free" education. All nice words and so pretty, but how do we pay for it ?

[B767drvr]

If the question is how do you prepare kids for high paying jobs then a reasonable answer is to provide them with a free education.

I don't think it's "reasonable" at all. Why force your neighbors to pay for your children's education? You brought those children into the world, you pay for them, including their education.

Many couples have chosen to not reproduce. Why confiscate their wealth to pay for your choices? :shrug:


Seems to me, if we're going to give free education to people, there are more pressing priorities than education. Shouldn't we first give free food to everyone? Then shelter? Then perhaps free medical care? How about transportation to and from college? If kids can't get to class, the free education really isn't of any value. If their tummies are growling and they can't concentrate, then that free education isn't very helpful.

[gomoho]

Why does that education need to be free? It really is available to anyone smart enough that is willing to work hard and stick their future necks out and obtain student loans. And the less fortunate you are the more money is available to you - but, it probably won't be handed to you a silver platter. You have to work hard in high school than advocate for yourself to obtain the grants, scholarships, and loans available.

[Rags123]

I don't think it's "reasonable" at all. Why force your neighbors to pay for your children's education? You brought those children into the world, you pay for them, including their education.

Many couples have chosen to not reproduce. Why confiscate their wealth to pay for your choices? :shrug:

Your last sentence could apply to so many things !

"Why confiscate their wealth to pay for your choices?"


Good or bad choices both !

[B767drvr]

Your last sentence could apply to so many things !

"Why confiscate their wealth to pay for your choices?"


Good or bad choices both !

EXACTLY! Minimalist government! Fire, police, armed forces and the minimum to regulate society. Time to slash the budget!!

[tomwed]

Social security and medicare are the biggest drivers of the federal budget. Social security became law in 1935 (boomers definitely not to blame - weren't even born yet.) Medicare became law in 1966 (boomers were children - not the politicians that voted for it.)


If you Google the Greediest generation the results will point to the Boomers and not the parents of the Boomers who are called the Greatest Generation as someone else suggested earlier.

Maybe wording the sentence that way makes the point I was trying to make.

[Sandtrap328]

[QUOTE=B767drvr;995010]I don't think it's "reasonable" at all. Why force your neighbors to pay for your children's education? You brought those children into the world, you pay for them, including their education.

Many couples have chosen to not reproduce. Why confiscate their wealth to pay for your choices? QUOTE]

Have you looked at your tax bill? You ARE paying a fair amount for school tax. No one in The Villages has school aged children yet that is part of our property tax bill.

There are only a tiny handful of states that give seniors a break on school tax.

No state gives a break on school taxes to childless people who are not seniors.

Progressive countries provide for their children and we should do more in the USA for our future generations.

[Rags123]

[QUOTE=B767drvr;995010]I don't think it's "reasonable" at all. Why force your neighbors to pay for your children's education? You brought those children into the world, you pay for them, including their education.

Many couples have chosen to not reproduce. Why confiscate their wealth to pay for your choices? QUOTE]

Have you looked at your tax bill? You ARE paying a fair amount for school tax. No one in The Villages has school aged children yet that is part of our property tax bill.

There are only a tiny handful of states that give seniors a break on school tax.

No state gives a break on school taxes to childless people who are not seniors.

Progressive countries provide for their children and we should do more in the USA for our future generations.

i could debate a long time on your example of school taxes but that is not the issue.

Check please...please check...those "progressive" countries you speak of.....do not have our military budget (If you can convince them to meet our load in policing the world, then that would be great).....those "progressive" countries pay so much more than us in taxes.....those "progressive" countries of which you speak do not, not even close, have the cost of education that the USA does....those "progressive" countries of which you speak do not even come close to spending the money we do in a stiuation of global disaster..... we are a bit different and if you are to compare, please...please...check and allow that comparison for debate !!!

Your words and those of those who propose this, are rosy, sweet sounding and that is it......."Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive."
William F. Buckley, Jr.

It would be wonderful if we could afford all these nice sounding idealistic ideas BUT WE CANNOT. We seem to always forget that with each thing we desire to have and purchase that sounds good....there always comes a bill.

We keep comparing ourselves to those "progressive" countries without really comparing them.

PS...One thing you are correct about......"we should do more in the USA for our future generations" and I think a great start would be allowing them not to be hamstrung with our foolish spending.

[B767drvr]

I guess I was looking for some college plan that would give the jobskills needed today for high paying jobs and maybe recreate life as it was when I was young. It doesn't seem as hopeful for young people. Does it?

I like this part of your post, in particular.

When we, the current citizens of this nation, saddle future generations with the obligation to pay off $18+ TRILLION of debt (debt that WE accumulated, not them!) then it's quite obvious we've exchanged their future for our current.

Many of us oppose this HUGE increase in debt for this very reason. Unfortunately, a majority of the electorate wants the "good times" to keep rolling (as long as they don't have to pick up the tab!) Eventually the hangover wears off and these same people begin questioning why it's so hard for their kids to get ahead. :icon_bored:

A balanced budget amendment seems obvious, but as a nation we can't even agree on a timeline to stop borrowing money. 10 years from now? 20 years from now? When does the insanity stop? :shrug:

[Rags123]

Does anyone who is proposing this free education remember this...

"National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform (often called Bowles-Simpson/Simpson-Bowles from the names of co-chairs Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles; or NCFRR) is a Presidential Commission created in 2010 by President Barack Obama to identify "policies to improve the fiscal situation in the medium term and to achieve fiscal sustainability over the long run".

National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Fiscal_Responsibility_and_R eform)

This became so political but was simply discarded because it was a tough pill to swallow. It laid it out and nobody liked what they heard, yet you still hear those who worry about our future refer to it.

I mention it because it seems we are once again on the trail of spending to accomodate something, although I am not sure what that is......we have lots of work to do. For example...

"One of the most encouraging aspects of the U.S. economic recovery is the halo effect on manufacturing, which accounts for 1 in 6 private-sector jobs. Yet a new study is dismissing that renaissance as little more than a "myth."

New study paints bleak picture of manufacturing rebound (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102327907)

We better turn our eyes and ears to our economy and our spending on the internal issues.

This report by the way....from Information Technology and Innovation Foundation

[tomwed]

More than one in five US workers is employed in just 10 occupations, a new report from the US government shows.

Retail salespersons, 4.48 million workers earning $25,370
Cashiers 3.34 million workers earning $20,420
Food prep and serving staff, 3.02 million workers earning $18,880
General office clerk, 2.83 million working earning $29,990
Registered nurses, 2.66 million workers earning $68,910
Waiters and waitresses, 2.40 million workers earning $20,880
Customer service representatives, 2.39 million workers earning $33,370
Laborers, and freight and material movers, 2.28 million workers earning $26,690
Secretaries and admins (not legal or medical), 2.16 million workers earning $34,000
Janitors and cleaners (not maids), 2.10 million workers earning, $25,140

I'm trying to find out most Americans do for a living.
What jobs need people.
What education people need for the job.
Do you want to help?

[TNLAKEPANDA]

It should be left up to the States and not the Feds!!!!!

[sunnyatlast]

We share the same values. My children do to.

If the question is how do you prepare kids for high paying jobs then a reasonable answer is to provide them with a free education. Their higher salaries will be taxed and they will also contribute to Social Security. The problem is how do you tie that to their first 12 years of schooling so they are moving towards that goal and not looking at a life working for minimal wages.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm trying to find out.

PARENTS, and ideally two parents, are the ones who responsible for seeing that "their first 12 years of schooling is tied to …moving towards that goal" of making higher salaries to be higher income earners who will pay more into the taxes needed for SS, medicare, and all the other programs.

It takes parents to bring them up with a work ethic and long-term goals. But many kids are raising themselves with no adult supervision and they do not have a decent/safe home life to go home to.

THAT is the problem and nobody in the higher levels of leadership talks about it (except some church leaders, but they are vilified and scorned by the leftist "intellectual" crowd, for teaching against simply aborting them to solve some of these problems!).

Intact family units having dedicated, tuned in and loving parents are what kids need to be focused on a future other than minimum wage, fast food jobs or having no job.

[bobbym]

I would rather pay for their education then have to pay to support them for the rest of my life.

[B767drvr]

I would rather pay for their education then have to pay to support them for the rest of my life.

Why should you pay for EITHER?

[tomwed]

I would rather pay for their education then have to pay to support them for the rest of my life.

That's what I was thinking. I did a good job for everyone raising my sons or maybe it's all their doing. They are around 30 yrs old making 6 figures and paying all kinds of taxes.

[jbdlfan]

Some of your arguments in this thread can be applied to Social security and Medicare. I get it, you paid in. But the people YOU elected wasted it or misappropriated it. Most have taken out WAY more than they ever paid in. Why should I now have to pay for that, let alone my children and their children? You should have planned better, watched our Nation's resources and been better stewards.

I'm sorry, but that is just as silly as some of the arguments on not funding education. Who do you think will be paying for YOUR bankrupt Social Security system? Yes, those same kids you don't want to spend to get educated so they can get jobs that haven't even been invented yet. It is an INVESTMENT. Very few things we pay for with our tax dollars can generate a return. Education is one of them.

[chachacha]

there are already plenty of programs to pay for education...this is simply a political stunt.

[Rags123]

Some of your arguments in this thread can be applied to Social security and Medicare. I get it, you paid in. But the people YOU elected wasted it or misappropriated it. Most have taken out WAY more than they ever paid in. Why should I now have to pay for that, let alone my children and their children? You should have planned better, watched our Nation's resources and been better stewards.

I'm sorry, but that is just as silly as some of the arguments on not funding education. Who do you think will be paying for YOUR bankrupt Social Security system? Yes, those same kids you don't want to spend to educated so they can get jobs that haven't even been invented yet. It is an INVESTMENT. Very few things we pay for with our tax dollars can generate a return. Education is one of them.


I have offered no "silly arguments" as you say. I simply say that this country can not afford to do this. There are other more compelling and P.......l reasons, along with the long argument concerning your comparing social security to this situation, but this country does not have the money.

Hate to be crass, but others have said it....this proposal is simply another of the stunts we should be used to by now.

[outlaw]

One reason tuition has outpaced inflation is the federal and state programs that have subsidized financing for tuition. It is simply supply and demand. The "cheaper" the cost to attend college, the more people will attend. We now have $1 trillion in student debt, many of those students have virtually unmarketable degrees (but hey, they are college graduates), and the professors, administrators, and staff, are laughing all the way to the bank.

[Rags123]

I am sorry....I did not think of this while responding above and really am not sure of my facts on this....but

Does not a Pell Grant cover most of tuition presently ?

I understand that this is for low income or based on need, but is that not the audience we search for ?

If I am wrong, please correct me......but wonder if people who need it are knocking down the doors for Pell Grants ?

[gomoho]

I am sorry....I did not think of this while responding above and really am not sure of my facts on this....but

Does not a Pell Grant cover most of tuition presently ?

I understand that this is for low income or based on need, but is that not the audience we search for ?

If I am wrong, please correct me......but wonder if people who need it are knocking down the doors for Pell Grants ?


Because they are not motivated or smart enough to do so - so lets give it to them for free!

[jbdlfan]

I have offered no "silly arguments" as you say. I simply say that this country can not afford to do this. There are other more compelling and P.......l reasons, along with the long argument concerning your comparing social security to this situation, but this country does not have the money.

Hate to be crass, but others have said it....this proposal is simply another of the stunts we should be used to by now.

We can't afford Social Security either but I don't see anyone clamoring to end it. That would save billions if not trillions. We are paying people to NOT work (SS) but you are opposed to paying for an education for people to work.
Look, I agree we are tremendously in debt but no one will face the real issues.
I've never met a REAL fiscal conservative(which I am) on Social Security. The biggest difference is in each of our opinions of the expenditure. I see it as a long term investment in an educated population. You see it as a drain on on an already over-burdened system.
So are you saying...If....I repeat If we could afford it you would still oppose it?

[jbdlfan]

Because they are not motivated or smart enough to do so - so lets give it to them for free!

You have to be at the very LOWEST end of the financial spectrum to get a Pell grant. As a teacher in Florida and spouse working in customer service, none of our kids qualified.

[tomwed]

Some of your arguments in this thread can be applied to Social security and Medicare. I get it, you paid in. But the people YOU elected wasted it or misappropriated it. Most have taken out WAY more than they ever paid in. Why should I now have to pay for that, let alone my children and their children? You should have planned better, watched our Nation's resources and been better stewards.

I'm sorry, but that is just as silly as some of the arguments on not funding education. Who do you think will be paying for YOUR bankrupt Social Security system? Yes, those same kids you don't want to spend to get educated so they can get jobs that haven't even been invented yet. It is an INVESTMENT. Very few things we pay for with our tax dollars can generate a return. Education is one of them.
If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?
If we had it better then we need to thank those before us.
If you are 18 and being successful is not as easy then they need to blame us.

I would be very happy to find out that my generation looked out for their kids.

Show me that proof and I will buy you a beer and we can celebrate that we looked out for the next generation too.

[tomwed]

Because they are not motivated or smart enough to do so - so lets give it to them for free!
Tell me your success story.

[Rags123]

We can't afford Social Security either but I don't see anyone clamoring to end it. That would save billions if not trillions. We are paying people to NOT work (SS) but you are opposed to paying for an education for people to work.
Look, I agree we are tremendously in debt but no one will face the real issues.
I've never met a REAL fiscal conservative(which I am) on Social Security. The biggest difference is in each of our opinions of the expenditure. I see it as a long term investment in an educated population. You see it as a drain on on an already over-burdened system.
So are you saying...If....I repeat If we could afford it you would still oppose it?

Your post leaves me a bit confused.

Other than being something paid out of the US Treasury, I see no similarities between Social Security and this proposal (which seems to surface each January).

I also have no idea what a "REAL fiscal conservative(which I am) on Social Security. " The Social Security problem has existed for many years...MANY years and is nothing new. It needs to be addressed, on that I agree totally, but seems it always gets buried in the p.....al aspect (recall the proposal a number of years ago to privatize it..which I do not agree with...but it was laughed at and we were told loud and clear...there is no problem...see this link as one...Democrats Deny Social Security’s Red Ink (http://www.factcheck.org/2011/02/democrats-deny-social-securitys-red-ink/))

But we are digressing....same point could be made on any spending we do as opposed to offering new programs that just are not necessary or affordable at this time. I simply responded more on Social Security because for some reason that seems to irk you.

You ended with this question..."So are you saying...If....I repeat If we could afford it you would still oppose it?" That is very confusing at the least. What do you mean by that question.....trying to stay a bit lucid, I will simply say if we could afford it then we might spend time discussing the idea and doing it correctly, but we cannot, thus it becomes a dead issue.

I actually suggest that we have a great discussion on social security as that seems to get you riled. I actually spoke to that a bit in post #33 on this thread because we do need reform in social security. I also in this same thread spoke briefly to the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform in post #590. If you recall, that was the commission whose results we simply ignored and still do.

And finally a quote I used seems to apply here...

"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive."
William F. Buckley, Jr.

Bottom line, we agree that we need work on Social Security and I am hoping that very soon we can get all sides to discuss the future of all entitlement programs so that maybe some day some of that idealism can be used. We need tax reform as well...all of this should come before consideration of a bill like this free tuition. Again, I still think we better address leaving our kids and grandkids with a nation that is not broke...that, to me seems the most important and we are working in the other direction.

Also in this thread (forgive me for not pasting the entire thing and obviously obviously you have not read all of it OR you just flat out do not agree, but the economy is not coming back as we are being told and THAT needs work well before any of these annual hopes.

This link will get you to the study which shows our supposed manufacturing rebound is not as robust as we thought.

New study paints bleak picture of manufacturing rebound (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102327907)

Would love to hear exactly what a fiscal conserative is on Social Security...I understand the term but hearing it applied to ONLY Social Security makes me ask.

And I hope I responded to your question...it was worded kind of odd and I took my best shot. My problem was that you made an assumption for me that was not even implied, ie. opposing this bill if we could afford it. Not sure how you arrived at that on my behalf

BIG PS....notice the heading of this thread. It is about one state, and would it not be novel for states that can afford it, and need it to propose it on a state level ? Imagine....why is everything federal ?

[Rags123]

If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?
If we had it better then we need to thank those before us.
If you are 18 and being successful is not as easy then they need to blame us.

I would be very happy to find out that my generation looked out for their kids.

Show me that proof and I will buy you a beer and we can celebrate that we looked out for the next generation too.

Leaving the young people deep in debt is just about the worst thing I can think that you would do. I suspect that future generations facing longer life span, higher medical costs (have you notice how the cost are going up and wait until next year), and no way out will not miss the chance to go to school for nothing.

The Pell grants are great...they are not used. Why not suggest changing the wage requirements for Pell ? But see THAT plan is not as pol.....y tasty as this proposal. This is purely a stunt...there are so many things that can be done without this proposal BUT that would require working with congress and not being able to try another grandstand act.

Sorry if this is offensive but this comes up every January and as you look back on your life, do you recall when this was handled NOT IN THE PRESS until after it was hashed and debated in congress ? Remember those days ?

[claricecolin]

Someone asked up thread about Pell Grants. These are awarded strictly by income and the most you can get for 2014-2015 year is $5730

2014-2015 Pell Grant Amount - Student Loans and Paying for College Blog (http://www.estudentloan.com/blog/2014-2015-pell-grant-amount)

[tomwed]

Leaving the young people deep in debt is just about the worst thing I can think that you would do. I suspect that future generations facing longer life span, higher medical costs (have you notice how the cost are going up and wait until next year), and no way out will not miss the chance to go to school for nothing.

The Pell grants are great...they are not used. Why not suggest changing the wage requirements for Pell ? But see THAT plan is not as pol.....y tasty as this proposal. This is purely a stunt...there are so many things that can be done without this proposal BUT that would require working with congress and not being able to try another grandstand act.

Sorry if this is offensive but this comes up every January and as you look back on your life, do you recall when this was handled NOT IN THE PRESS until after it was hashed and debated in congress ? Remember those days ?
If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?



Was it?

[Rags123]

If you are my age, 62, ask yourself if life was life easier for you then if you were 18 today?



Was it?

I am 75 years old and I do not understand what your question has to do with anything, especially this thread. But, to answer, in some ways it was better and in some ways it was worse.

The bottom line is we have Pell grants available and other programs to pay for those that want to go to college, and most importantly no matter what, this country cannot afford it.

It is easier in some ways today and it is more difficult in others and it will be that way forever I suspect. Parents need to help their kids learn the path and get them on that path. If you want to get all philosophical on this, the breakdown of the family leads the way in negatives, not lack of college and frankly I am still working on the fact that NOBODY is knocking down the doors for using Pells...still have a bit more to check on.

If a state can afford it, then offer it....federal government does not need, nor should get involved.

To fill in the blanks for you, both my wife and I were children of steelworkers. We both attended college (I spent 6 years in the Navy as well) we both paid for out own college as our parents certainly could not afford it. We both worked in college in the dining hall to earn money. Seems rough then but looking back it was a a nice ride.

[Rags123]

For "continuing education" on the subject, I offer this link to an editorial. It is well written and I hope many read it, ESPECIALLY the first few paragraphs which, I think logically explain possible outcomes of the plan. I will not quote from it but hope some read it.

McArdle: Obama's college plan empowers the same old elites | The Salt Lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2057153-155/mcardle-obamas-college-plan-empowers-the)

[outlaw]

What is social conservative about advocating "free" education for everyone? Life is much easier today than when I was young. My father worked two jobs and my mother worked fulltime, also. I worked every summer going through school. Paid for college. Try and get a young person to mow your yard, or spread dirt, or wash windows during summer break. fugitaboudit.

[Rags123]

What is social conservative about advocating "free" education for everyone? Life is much easier today than when I was young. My father worked two jobs and my mother worked fulltime, also. I worked every summer going through school. Paid for college. Try and get a young person to mow your yard, or spread dirt, or wash windows during summer break. fugitaboudit.

Boy, this brings back memories and would like to add a remark to this thread.

I worked every summer on the crew that landscaped and maintained the grounds at a country club. I learned so much in those years from the guys who I helped in clearing brush etc. Things you just cannot learn in college. Each year when I went back to school, I just felt "smarter" because of that summer job.

Life is a process and we need to allow it to happen with a plan and you learn in so many ways from so many "unintended teachers"

[rubicon]

This womb to tomb life bubble has got to stop. Too many people have never had or lost the skill sets to get through life on their own. The graduation rate for community college is very low and those going to community college would be better off finding a good paying job b applying for certification and training with software training with data companies like Adobe Google, etc .

HERE is the big story on Tennessee Promise made by the federal government.
Tennessee funds free community college expenses from proceeds strictly from their LOTTERY.

the federal government said it would model their program after the Tennessee program.

P.S.
For those who view social security and medicare as entitlement program and I don't remember that all beneficiaries had skin in both games and some got skinned really good

We have the federal government doing bailouts and forgiveness programs for students who took out loans that can't or won't repay because they have low paying jobs or no job at all

[Rags123]

This womb to tomb life bubble has got to stop. Too many people have never had or lost the skill sets to get through life on their own. The graduation rate for community college is very low and those going to community college would be better off finding a good paying job b applying for certification and training with software training with data companies like Adobe Google, etc .

HERE is the big story on Tennessee Promise made by the federal government.
Tennessee funds free community college expenses from proceeds strictly from their LOTTERY.

the federal government said it would model their program after the Tennessee program.

P.S.
For those who view social security and medicare as entitlement program and I don't remember that all beneficiaries had skin in both games and some got skinned really good

We have the federal government doing bailouts and forgiveness programs for students who took out loans that can't or won't repay because they have low paying jobs or no job at all

You are on target RUBICON, and yet here on TOTV, people just support whatever is easy. This proposal will never ever get passed, and those who propose it know it, BUT this appeases a segment of voters and thus it seems ok to them to put it out there to show they care.

How any reasonably intelligent person who is even slightly aware of our debt and budget cannot see the direction we are going. The fiber of the country is being dissolved and instead of resisting, it seems like we just line up and support whatever is said as long as it fits our ideology or what we think is our ideology.

[B767drvr]

How any reasonably intelligent person who is even slightly aware of our debt and budget cannot see the direction we are going. The fiber of the country is being dissolved and instead of resisting, it seems like we just line up and support whatever is said as long as it fits our ideology or what we think is our ideology.

:bigbow: