Executive Courses with Fluffy Lies

[tomwed]

I am a very experienced golfer and before coming to the villages I was used to the ball sitting on top of the grass. I almost always had about a half inch room for error to hit the ball. If I scraped the ground the ball would go up in the air. If I was a half of an inch higher I would still have the same results.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing everyday but I know that my score will be higher on many of the executive courses I play on the south end of town because the ball is lying flat on the ground.

I played Bogart or Bacall last week and missed all but 1 green, but the grass was fluffy so I could chip. It was very rewarding.

I played Pelican today and the only thing I could do if I missed a green was to whack it with a putter. Whether it got close to the pin or not had more to do with luck than skill.

I don't understand why the grass is not fluffy all over.

I don't think a chipper is the solution but I should give it a try. [anyone selling a left handed chipper?]

If you are a beginner I would suggest teeing it up in the drop zone. Don't think of it as cheating. You are working on your swing and not trying to perfect hitting from an almost impossible lie. It's easier to hit out of the sand.

The fun of golf, for me, is the walk, the camaraderie, the park like setting and to a minor extent the game. So a bad score means very little to me.

But all things being equal including the age of the course, why are the conditions so different?

Do the courses on the north end of town have fluffier lies?

[Walter123]

I am a very experienced golfer and before coming to the villages I was used to the ball sitting on top of the grass. I almost always had about a half inch room for error to hit the ball. If I scraped the ground the ball would go up in the air. If I was a half of an inch higher I would still have the same results.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing everyday but I know that my score will be higher on many of the executive courses I play on the south end of town because the ball is lying flat on the ground.

I played Bogart or Bacall last week and missed all but 1 green, but the grass was fluffy so I could chip. It was very rewarding.

I played Pelican today and the only thing I could do if I missed a green was to whack it with a putter. Whether it got close to the pin or not had more to do with luck than skill.

I don't understand why the grass is not fluffy all over.

I don't think a chipper is the solution but I should give it a try. [anyone selling a left handed chipper?]

If you are a beginner I would suggest teeing it up in the drop zone. Don't think of it as cheating. You are working on your swing and not trying to perfect hitting from an almost impossible lie. It's easier to hit out of the sand.

The fun of golf, for me, is the walk, the camaraderie, the park like setting and to a minor extent the game. So a bad score means very little to me.

But all things being equal including the age of the course, why are the conditions so different?

Do the courses on the north end of town have fluffier lies?

Maybe you can carry a piece of astro turf around with you in the winter!

Seriously though I have noticed the same thing. I play winter rules and move my ball to a section of good turf if it is within a few inches. No shame in that.

[billethkid]

I think there is a dramatic difference in some of the conditions of courses north of 466 like nice well kept greens and t boxes.

South of 466 not nearly as well kept greens...and some t boxes are a shame....Pelican and Heron come to mind.

I have often asked why the difference.

Have yet to hear a good response.

[tomwed]

Maybe you can carry a piece of astro turf around with you in the winter!

Seriously though I have noticed the same thing. I play winter rules and move my ball to a section of good turf if it is within a few inches. No shame in that.
The shame or rules don't make a difference to me.

I would roll it over too if it was a bare spot. You do that a lot in South Jersey on a public course. Down here, It's not a bare spot. It's grass laying down or cut down close to the ground all over. It's green and it looks good but hitting out of the rough or sand is easier.

Since it can be fluffy at a different course less than a half mile away that gets just as much play, I come to the conclusion that one greenskeeper knows how to do it and the other one doesn't, no harm, no foul.

I also thought the executive course were kept up by the same team. Was I wrong?

[tuccillo]

In an ideal world you are hitting your chips with a descending blow so it really shouldn't matter whether you have a tight lie. I can't do that on a consistent basis so out comes the putter! I didn't hit a single chip last sunday at Palmetto - all putts from around the green.

I am a very experienced golfer and before coming to the villages I was used to the ball sitting on top of the grass. I almost always had about a half inch room for error to hit the ball. If I scraped the ground the ball would go up in the air. If I was a half of an inch higher I would still have the same results.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing everyday but I know that my score will be higher on many of the executive courses I play on the south end of town because the ball is lying flat on the ground.

I played Bogart or Bacall last week and missed all but 1 green, but the grass was fluffy so I could chip. It was very rewarding.

I played Pelican today and the only thing I could do if I missed a green was to whack it with a putter. Whether it got close to the pin or not had more to do with luck than skill.

I don't understand why the grass is not fluffy all over.

I don't think a chipper is the solution but I should give it a try. [anyone selling a left handed chipper?]

If you are a beginner I would suggest teeing it up in the drop zone. Don't think of it as cheating. You are working on your swing and not trying to perfect hitting from an almost impossible lie. It's easier to hit out of the sand.

The fun of golf, for me, is the walk, the camaraderie, the park like setting and to a minor extent the game. So a bad score means very little to me.

But all things being equal including the age of the course, why are the conditions so different?

Do the courses on the north end of town have fluffier lies?

[dewilson58]

In an ideal world you are hitting your chips with a descending blow so it really shouldn't matter whether you have a tight lie. I can't do that on a consistent basis so out comes the putter! I didn't hit a single chip last sunday at Palmetto - all putts from around the green.

I'm a seven iron type of guy...............get it up a little and let it run on the green.

:pray:

[Polar Bear]

...it really shouldn't matter whether you have a tight lie...

[emoji15]

[tomwed]

[emoji15]

that's a great face for that remark

[tuccillo]

Might want to read the whole sentence instead of pulling out a phrase.

[emoji15]

[tomwed]

click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phh8RL5SWQo)
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtSTUjAYB7Y)
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2kKYGyThXE)
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qz_5WqmSGc)

A descending blow on a tight lie is very difficult for me to control. If I hit it thin it rolls over the green. A full swing on a tight lie is a little easier. Both are low percentage shots.

All good advice about hitting a tight lie that I'll try.

I'll need to get some tennis balls.

I have an extra cheap pitching wedge I'm going to try hitting a ball off a 2 x 4.

When the ball is sitting up there is an extra half inch and it's a much higher percentage shots.

[Irie Brown]

Thank for the education. I thought a fluffy lie was something to do with a fluffy white dog or a little fib...

[kcrazorbackfan]

Tight lies in Florida? Seriously? Oboy, something else my recent surgically repaired right shoulder has to worry about when I get there in a couple of months; sand the consistency of concrete slurry in a sand trap is what damaged it last September.

[tomwed]

Tight lies in Florida? Seriously? Oboy, something else my recent surgically repaired right shoulder has to worry about when I get there in a couple of months; sand the consistency of concrete slurry in a sand trap is what damaged it last September.
no worries, you are not playing football without shoulder pads

the sand is just fine including the course sand

why care about what you shoot?

i just wondered why some courses in the same area and the same age give the golfer fluffy lies and other courses have tight lies

the best of golf to me, has very little to do with the score

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

When people say that they are a very experienced golfer, I assume that to mean that they are a very good player which I guess may or may not be the case.
The fact is however that good players prefer tight lies. I was a pretty decent player before I was forced to retire because of some physical issues. I grew up playing golf in New England where we had mostly blue grass fairways that could not be cut as short as the Bermuda grass we have here. I never realized that I was getting flier on almost every shot until I came to play in Florida.
Since then, a lot of the better courses up north have been transitioning over to bent grass fairways which can be cut down.
For years, Jack Nicklaus refuse to play the tour stop at Pleasant Valley Country Club in Sutton MA because he said that it was impossible to control a ball from blue grass fairways.
If you can't hit a shot from a Bermuda or bent fairway, you need to take some lessons to improve your technique.
I attended a clinic with short game guru, Stan Utley. Stan talked about the bounce on a club and the fallacy that you need low bounce to hit shots off of tight lies. The demonstrate this, he hit a 58 degree wedge with 12 degrees of bounce off of cement. He was able to hit high soft shots from the cement. Even with 12 degrees of bounce, if the ball is struck properly, the leading edge will be well below the center of the ball. It's not the conditions or the club, it's having, or lacking, the proper technique.

[fred53]

I am a very experienced golfer and before coming to the villages I was used to the ball sitting on top of the grass. I almost always had about a half inch room for error to hit the ball. If I scraped the ground the ball would go up in the air. If I was a half of an inch higher I would still have the same results.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing everyday but I know that my score will be higher on many of the executive courses I play on the south end of town because the ball is lying flat on the ground.

I played Bogart or Bacall last week and missed all but 1 green, but the grass was fluffy so I could chip. It was very rewarding.

I played Pelican today and the only thing I could do if I missed a green was to whack it with a putter. Whether it got close to the pin or not had more to do with luck than skill.



I don't understand why the grass is not fluffy all over.

I don't think a chipper is the solution but I should give it a try. [anyone selling a left handed chipper?]

If you are a beginner I would suggest teeing it up in the drop zone. Don't think of it as cheating. You are working on your swing and not trying to perfect hitting from an almost impossible lie. It's easier to hit out of the sand.

The fun of golf, for me, is the walk, the camaraderie, the park like setting and to a minor extent the game. So a bad score means very little to me.

But all things being equal including the age of the course, why are the conditions so different?

Do the courses on the north end of town have fluffier lies?

and the ability to adapt to different conditions is one of the things that make it such a challenge. If you don't have to ability to hit off of tight lies then perhaps you could practice that aspect of the game more often.

It isn't the problem with the course conditions....it's the lack of imagination and talent of the player. Most anyone can hit/chip from a fluffy lie(as you call it)...it takes a really good "golfer" to master many different conditions.

Good luck. Oh and you often see professionals in PGA tour events using putters from tight lies off of the greens...if they can practice and excel at that perhaps you can too.

[tomwed]

and the ability to adapt to different conditions is one of the things that make it such a challenge. If you don't have to ability to hit off of tight lies then perhaps you could practice that aspect of the game more often.

It isn't the problem with the course conditions....it's the lack of imagination and talent of the player. Most anyone can hit/chip from a fluffy lie(as you call it)...it takes a really good "golfer" to master many different conditions.

Good luck. Oh and you often see professionals in PGA tour events using putters from tight lies off of the greens...if they can practice and excel at that perhaps you can too.
Thank-you
I never said I was talented or good. I only said I was experienced. I played for 50 years and coached for 35. My question was about why some courses in my area have fluffy lies and some do not.
The tight lies are everywhere beyond the tee except from the rough.
How old are you?

[tomwed]

When people say that they are a very experienced golfer, I assume that to mean that they are a very good player which I guess may or may not be the case.
The fact is however that good players prefer tight lies. I was a pretty decent player before I was forced to retire because of some physical issues. I grew up playing golf in New England where we had mostly blue grass fairways that could not be cut as short as the Bermuda grass we have here. I never realized that I was getting flier on almost every shot until I came to play in Florida.
Since then, a lot of the better courses up north have been transitioning over to bent grass fairways which can be cut down.
For years, Jack Nicklaus refuse to play the tour stop at Pleasant Valley Country Club in Sutton MA because he said that it was impossible to control a ball from blue grass fairways.
If you can't hit a shot from a Bermuda or bent fairway, you need to take some lessons to improve your technique.
I attended a clinic with short game guru, Stan Utley. Stan talked about the bounce on a club and the fallacy that you need low bounce to hit shots off of tight lies. The demonstrate this, he hit a 58 degree wedge with 12 degrees of bounce off of cement. He was able to hit high soft shots from the cement. Even with 12 degrees of bounce, if the ball is struck properly, the leading edge will be well below the center of the ball. It's not the conditions or the club, it's having, or lacking, the proper technique.

If pros prefer a tight lie it's because they have mastered the skill and not because it's easy.
I'm sure Stan Utley has better hand and eye coordination than I do. I just want to feel good about my game and not win any tournaments.
My point was that some courses in the same area, and the same age give the golfer a fluffier lie and some do not.

[DougB]

If pros prefer a tight lie it's because they have mastered the skill and not because it's easy.
I'm sure Stan Utley has better hand and eye coordination than I do. I just want to feel good about my game and not win any tournaments.
My point was that some courses in the same area, and the same age give the golfer a fluffier lie and some do not.

I'm not a golfer and know nothing about the game, but if all courses were the same, what would be the purpose of playing different ones?

[Polar Bear]

In an ideal world you are hitting your chips with a descending blow so it really shouldn't matter whether you have a tight lie. I can't do that on a consistent basis so out comes the putter! I didn't hit a single chip last sunday at Palmetto - all putts from around the green.


Okay, I'll include your entire post. Still doesn't change my reaction to the it-really-shouldn't-matter-whether-you-have-a-tight-lie part. [emoji15]

But please don't be upset. I'm just having fun. And it's a reflection on my short game...not yours. [emoji4] (Although I'll bet I'm not the only one who feels that way about chipping off a tight lie...heheh.)

[tomwed]

I'm not a golfer and know nothing about the game, but if all courses were the same, what would be the purpose of playing different ones?
It's a good question.
I want to win the game. I want to beat the course. Better than par wins. If the course wants me to hit off a lie that sits on the ground and not elevated on the grass that's cheating and I loose interest.
I don't care how anyone else plays.
It's me against the course.
Please remember that the best part of golf for me is not the game.

[tuccillo]

Yes, exactly, a tough shot for many people because it plays with your mind - I worry about hitting thin or fat.

click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phh8RL5SWQo)
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtSTUjAYB7Y)
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2kKYGyThXE)
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qz_5WqmSGc)

A descending blow on a tight lie is very difficult for me to control. If I hit it thin it rolls over the green. A full swing on a tight lie is a little easier. Both are low percentage shots.

All good advice about hitting a tight lie that I'll try.

I'll need to get some tennis balls.

I have an extra cheap pitching wedge I'm going to try hitting a ball off a 2 x 4.

When the ball is sitting up there is an extra half inch and it's a much higher percentage shots.

[mulligan]

The reason the lies seem tighter here is that the grass is dormant in winter. The par four fairways are overseeded with rye grass, the par three holes have overseeded tee boxes and greens only. When we were in drought conditions a couple of years ago, I purchased a chipper (basically a lofted putter) that has the same result as a 6 or 7 iron bump and run shot. Great for tight lies. Stick around until June or July, and you'll see vastly improved conditions. By the way, there are 4 contractors that handle golf course maintenance in TV, down from 9. Much easier to manage. GMS is working to achieve more consistency throughout the villages.

[Bay Kid]

These lies are great for practicing a bump and run shot.

[fred53]

Thank-you
I never said I was talented or good. I only said I was experienced. I played for 50 years and coached for 35. My question was about why some courses in my area have fluffy lies and some do not.
The tight lies are everywhere beyond the tee except from the rough.
How old are you?

I made no assumption as to whether you were or were not a good player. If you've played for 50 years(coaching doesn't imply expertise in all areas of golf shots)I'd have thought you'd have experienced most grass conditions...that said it becomes clearer that you want golf to be easier since your problem with the lack of fluffy lies most likely reflects a tendency to "yip" those nasty tight lie shots...the varied conditions are due to the over seeding with winter rye grass in the aprons of the greens(tees, par 4 fairways and greens get the same treatment)...it grows differently depending on soil conditions, course maintenance and amount of play. Ergo: when it comes up sparsely the ball still sits down...it's also one reason the greens(especially Executive)are bumpy and lack speed consistency....I've worked at plenty of courses...

I'm 61...you? I've played for over 50 years and am a fairly accomplished amateur player...I practice 3/4x/wk(I like it) and my game fluctuates from sub par rounds to low 80's.

Knowing why the conditions vary was perhaps a way to start an internet conversation so you must expect the variety of answers...this is mine...:ho:

[tuccillo]

The point I was trying to make is that if you have good technique you can chip off of concrete - I can't because my technique is somewhat lacking. If you chip better with the ball sitting up on grass that could indicate that you tend to "scoop" the ball instead of hit down and letting the club face hit the ball first. If your technique is "scooping", bad things will tend to happen with tight lies. This is not a criticism of anyone's game - just an observation based on my own shortcomings.

Okay, I'll include your entire post. Still doesn't change my reaction to the it-really-shouldn't-matter-whether-you-have-a-tight-lie part. [emoji15]

But please don't be upset. I'm just having fun. And it's a reflection on my short game...not yours. [emoji4] (Although I'll bet I'm not the only one who feels that way about chipping off a tight lie...heheh.)

[tomwed]

I found out that if the grass is very short it needs less water. That explains why it's short on so many courses.

That's what I do. I scoop it up. I'm good at scooping and making flop shots in taller grass.

I read a lot and looked at different videos. I played this morning at Sweetgum. I took practice swings until it was right. It helped a little.

Now I'm trying a pitch and run approach. I'm going to try to pick the club that works with a specific swing speed. The swing speed will be one that if I hit it thin it will roll up to the pin or if I hit it correctly it will fly and roll to the pin. A smaller swing will mean the results will not be as bad if I thin shot it.

I'm playing Bogart at 3pm.

[graciegirl]

I am getting rather good with my putter from 10-15 yards out. They don't ask HOW, they ask HOW Many.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'm not a golfer and know nothing about the game, but if all courses were the same, what would be the purpose of playing different ones?

Good point. But also one of the challenges of the game is to be able to adapt and play from different lies.

[steamdogman]

Good Lord guys and ladies, you are playing Executive Golf Courses that get more rounds of golf per year than any golf course you probably have played. The staff that takes care of the Executive Courses are the same people who take care of the Championship Courses. They treat Executive Courses the same way, and over the last year Golf Management has changed the companies and I believe for the better. I work at both Bogart/Bacall and Pelican/Heron and have noticed many great changes over the past few months. One has to look at the number of rounds played at Executive Courses, particularly this time of year. Accept the fact that the more players, the courses are going to suffer. Instead of knocking these courses, knock the people who do not rake traps, do not take care of ball marks on the greens.

[rubicon]

I am a golfer. I take golf courses as I find them

[tomwed]

I am getting rather good with my putter from 10-15 yards out. They don't ask HOW, they ask HOW Many.
Me too from 5 yards.
Over 5 yards I'm doing a Hail Mary as it rolls.

[tomwed]

Good Lord guys and ladies, you are playing Executive Golf Courses that get more rounds of golf per year than any golf course you probably have played. The staff that takes care of the Executive Courses are the same people who take care of the Championship Courses. They treat Executive Courses the same way, and over the last year Golf Management has changed the companies and I believe for the better. I work at both Bogart/Bacall and Pelican/Heron and have noticed many great changes over the past few months. One has to look at the number of rounds played at Executive Courses, particularly this time of year. Accept the fact that the more players, the courses are going to suffer. Instead of knocking these courses, knock the people who do not rake traps, do not take care of ball marks on the greens.
Bogart/Bacall get just as much business as Pelican/Heron. Would you agree?
The conditions of Bogart/Bacall, especially with tight lies is superior to Heron/Pelican. Would you agree?
I did the math and it is amazing that any exec course is playable at all. You guys are great.
But why are some execs better then others if the same team is managing them all? I asked the starter that question today at Bogart. He didn't know.If you don't rake a trap it doesn't affect me, I'll lift, clean and place. If you make a ball mark and forget to fix it, I will.

[DonH57]

Good point. But also one of the challenges of the game is to be Able to adapt and play from different lies.

I agree. That's one of the best things about the game. You can play the same course 5 times and get into many different lies on each of the holes. Golf offers so many variables.

[Mikeod]

Bogart/Bacall get just as much business as Pelican/Heron. Would you agree?
The conditions of Bogart/Bacall, especially with tight lies is superior to Heron/Pelican. Would you agree?
I did the math and it is amazing that any exec course is playable at all. You guys are great.
But why are some execs better then others if the same team is managing them all? I asked the starter that question today at Bogart. He didn't know.If you don't rake a trap it doesn't affect me, I'll lift, clean and place. If you make a ball mark and forget to fix it, I will.
The same team isn't doing maintenance on all the courses. There are now four different companies doing the job. They each have specific courses they are responsible for. There have been some companies whose contracts were not renewed because the courses did not meet the standards established. The new contractor will need some time to get the courses where they should be. Unfortunately, this is not the ideal season to grow bermuda, which is the base grass on all the courses.

The areas around the greens can be a challenge as that is where the most traffic occurs, including cart traffic from players with the RA sleeves. This is also the time of year when the courses get the most play. Perfect storm.


The Texas wedge is a good shot when the lie is thin and there is not obstruction between you and the hole.

[Polar Bear]

I don't know what everybody is worried about. Heck, we're all chipping better than Tiger. [emoji39]

[Walter123]

i don't know what everybody is worried about. Heck, we're all chipping better than tiger. [emoji39]

lol!

[Ozzello]

I don't mind a tight lie on grass. When the ball is sitting on well packed soil 10 yards from the green, NOW I don't like it.
Is ok though, because I pulled my cart along that little trail of well packed soil and sparse grass between the green and the cart path 20 yards from the green, and my putter is right here handy.
I do wish the rest of you would park on cart path though so I can use my wedge around the green.
I would suggest the course maintenance cut down more trees too in the areas around the greens to help grow more grass, but I play summers too, and I like parking in the shade...on top of these hard packed areas where they are having trouble growing grass.

I decided last week to start carrying a chipping mat anyway, who needs grass?

[graciegirl]

I don't mind a tight lie on grass. When the ball is sitting on well packed soil 10 yards from the green, NOW I don't like it.
Is ok though, because I pulled my cart along that little trail of well packed soil and sparse grass between the green and the cart path 20 yards from the green, and my putter is right here handy.
I do wish the rest of you would park on cart path though so I can use my wedge around the green.
I would suggest the course maintenance cut down more trees too in the areas around the greens to help grow more grass, but I play summers too, and I like parking in the shade...on top of these hard packed areas where they are having trouble growing grass.

I decided last week to start carrying a chipping mat anyway, who needs grass?


Ya can't complain about the price, either.

[Bogie Shooter]

Ya can't complain about the price, either.

Just wait, I bet the post is coming..................

[tomwed]

I got a tip yesterday about locking my left wrist. I'm left handed. It helped a bit but I still want to get a chipper. I got a better chance with luck than skill.

I forgot that carts, with handicapped golfers drive close to the green. The course is very accommodating in that respect. It makes sense that everything is so flat and patted down.

I asked the starter at Bogart and he told me that the execs are all maintained by the same group. I'm thinking now, he got it wrong.

[graciegirl]

Just wait, I bet the post is coming..................


I know the one. AND I know who usually says it. We have to pay a four dollar trail fee. Those are the folks who never played golf until they got here.

[tomwed]

It's funny you should mention that. I was thinking, do I really want to make the game easier in any way, shape or form so that more people play.

I don't want more people playing. I like flat lies now. The trail fees should be $8. [I'm sorry it took so long for me to catch on.]

[Ozzello]

Don't worry Tom.
There is no possible way.... more people could play.

lol, I made a rhyme. Might be an entire song by tomorrow, written while waiting 10 minutes to tee off ...at every hole.

[tomwed]

Don't worry Tom.
There is no possible way.... more people could play.

lol, I made a rhyme. Might be an entire song by tomorrow, written while waiting 10 minutes to tee off ...at every hole.
When I coached one of the kids showed me a good game to play while waiting to tee off. It's called knock out and keeps you loose.

You hit the ball with whatever club you will use to tee off with as a putter.
Player 1 starts at the nearest tee box marker [that little black ball with the stake]. He tries to putt it so it hits the other marker. If he hits it he goes again and aims at the first ball mark. If he hits it he aims at the opponents. If he hits the opponent they are out and he goes for the next opponent.

That's if he's best player I have ever seen.
Most times player 1 doesn't hit the other marker on the first stroke and then player 2 goes, than 3 and than 4. It's a little like shooting pool. Everyone goes in order and the game takes less than 5 minutes.

Kids being kids, sometimes they liked that game more than golf.

[Ozzello]

When I coached one of the kids showed me a good game to play while waiting to tee off. It's called knock out and keeps you loose.

You hit the ball with whatever club you will use to tee off with as a putter.
Player 1 starts at the nearest tee box marker [that little black ball with the stake]. He tries to putt it so it hits the other marker. If he hits it he goes again and aims at the first ball mark. If he hits it he aims at the opponents. If he hits the opponent they are out and he goes for the next opponent.

That's if he's best player I have ever seen.
Most times player 1 doesn't hit the other marker on the first stroke and then player 2 goes, than 3 and than 4. It's a little like shooting pool. Everyone goes in order and the game takes less than 5 minutes.

Kids being kids, sometimes they liked that game more than golf.

I like sitting in the cart trying to convince my playing partner they can go ahead and hit because they aren't going to hit the green anyway. By the time the witty quips are over, the ambassador is there telling us to pick up the pace.