THIS LADY HAS A POINT

[Guest]

This lady has a point.
Obama's 143 Days of Senate Experience
Posted by Cheri Jacobus
May 5, 2008 at 5:35 pm

Just how much Senate experience does Barack Obama have in terms of actual work days? Not much.
From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United State Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the Senate. That's how many days the Senate was actually in session and working.
After 143 days of work experience, Obama believed he was ready to be Commander In Chief, Leader of the Free World, and fill the shoes of Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK and Ronald Reagan.
143 days -- I keep leftovers in my refrigerator longer than that.
In contrast, John McCain's 26 years in Congress, 22 years of military service including 1,966 days in captivity as a POW in Hanoi now seem more impressive than ever. At 71, John McCain may just be hitting his stride.

[Guest]

This lady has a point too . . .


The wife U.S. Republican John McCain callously left behind

By Sharon Churcher

Now that Hillary Clinton has at last formally withdrawn from the race for the White House, the eyes of America and the world will focus on Barack Obama and his Republican rival Senator John McCain.

While Obama will surely press his credentials as the embodiment of the American dream – a handsome, charismatic young black man who was raised on food stamps by a single mother and who represents his country’s future – McCain will present himself as a selfless, principled war hero whose campaign represents not so much a battle for the presidency of the United States, but a crusade to rescue the nation’s tarnished reputation.

McCain likes to illustrate his moral fibre by referring to his five years as a prisoner-of-war in Vietnam. And to demonstrate his commitment to family values, the 71-year-old former US Navy pilot pays warm tribute to his beautiful blonde wife, Cindy, with whom he has four children.

But there is another Mrs McCain who casts a ghostly shadow over the Senator’s presidential campaign. She is seldom seen and rarely written about, despite being mother to McCain’s three eldest children.

And yet, had events turned out differently, it would be she, rather than Cindy, who would be vying to be First Lady. She is McCain’s first wife, Carol, who was a famous beauty and a successful swimwear model when they married in 1965.

She was the woman McCain dreamed of during his long incarceration and torture in Vietnam’s infamous ‘Hanoi Hilton’ prison and the woman who faithfully stayed at home looking after the children and waiting anxiously for news.

But when McCain returned to America in 1973 to a fanfare of publicity and a handshake from Richard Nixon, he discovered his wife had been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier. Her car had skidded on icy roads into a telegraph pole on Christmas Eve, 1969. Her pelvis and one arm were shattered by the impact and she suffered massive internal injuries.

When Carol was discharged from hospital after six months of life-saving surgery, the prognosis was bleak. In order to save her legs, surgeons

had been forced to cut away huge sections of shattered bone, taking with it her tall, willowy figure. She was confined to a wheelchair and was forced to use a catheter.

Through sheer hard work, Carol learned to walk again. But when John McCain came home from Vietnam, she had gained a lot of weight and bore little resemblance to her old self.

Today, she stands at just 5ft 4in and still walks awkwardly, with a pronounced limp. Her body is held together by screws and metal plates and, at 70, her face is worn by wrinkles that speak of decades of silent suffering.

For nearly 30 years, Carol has maintained a dignified silence about the accident, McCain and their divorce. But last week at the bungalow where she now lives at Virginia Beach, a faded seaside resort 200 miles south of Washington, she told The Mail on Sunday how McCain divorced her in 1980 and married Cindy, 18 years his junior and the heir to an Arizona brewing fortune, just one month later.

Carol insists she remains on good terms with her ex-husband, who agreed as part of their divorce settlement to pay her medical costs for life. ‘I have no bitterness,’ she says. ‘My accident is well recorded. I had 23 operations, I am five inches shorter than I used to be and I was in hospital for six months. It was just awful, but it wasn’t the reason for my divorce.

‘My marriage ended because John McCain didn’t want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens...it just does.’

Some of McCain’s acquaintances are less forgiving, however. They portray the politician as a self-centred womaniser who effectively abandoned his crippled wife to ‘play the field’. They accuse him of finally settling on Cindy, a former rodeo beauty queen, for financial reasons.

McCain was then earning little more than £25,000 a year as a naval officer, while his new father-in-law, Jim Hensley, was a multi-millionaire who had impeccable political connections.

He first met Carol in the Fifties while he was at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis. He was a privileged, but rebellious scion of one of America’s most distinguished military dynasties – his father and grandfather were both admirals.

But setting out to have a good time, the young McCain hung out with a group of young officers who called themselves the ‘Bad Bunch’.

His primary interest was women and his conquests ranged from a knife-wielding floozy nicknamed ‘Marie, the Flame of Florida’ to a tobacco heiress.

Carol fell into his fast-living world by accident. She escaped a poor upbringing in Philadelphia to become a successful model, married an Annapolis classmate of McCain’s and had two children – Douglas and Andrew – before renewing what one acquaintance calls ‘an old flirtation’ with McCain.

It seems clear she was bowled over by McCain’s attention at a time when he was becoming bored with his playboy lifestyle.

‘He was 28 and ready to settle down and he loved Carol’s children,’ recalled another Annapolis graduate, Robert Timberg, who wrote The Nightingale’s Song, a bestselling biography of McCain and four other graduates of the academy.

The couple married and McCain adopted Carol’s sons. Their daughter, Sidney, was born a year later, but domesticity was clearly beginning

to bore McCain – the couple were regarded as ‘fixtures on the party circuit’ before McCain requested combat duty in Vietnam at the end of 1966.

He was assigned as a bomber pilot on an aircraft carrier in the Gulf of Tonkin.


What follows is the stuff of the McCain legend. He was shot down over Hanoi in October 1967 on his 23rd mission over North Vietnam and was badly beaten by an angry mob when he was pulled, half-drowned from a lake.


Over the next five-and-a-half years in the notorious Hoa Loa Prison he was regularly tortured and mistreated.

It was in 1969 that Carol went to spend the Christmas holiday – her third without McCain – at her parents’ home. After dinner, she left to drop off some presents at a friend’s house.

It wasn’t until some hours later that she was discovered, alone and in terrible pain, next to the wreckage of her car. She had been hurled through the windscreen.

After her first series of life-saving operations, Carol was told she may never walk again, but when doctors said they would try to get word to McCain about her injuries, she refused, insisting: ‘He’s got enough problems, I don’t want to tell him.’


H. Ross Perot, a billionaire Texas businessman, future presidential candidate and advocate of prisoners of war, paid for her medical care.

When McCain – his hair turned prematurely white and his body reduced to little more than a skeleton – was released in March 1973, he told reporters he was overjoyed to see Carol again.

But friends say privately he was ‘appalled’ by the change in her appearance. At first, though, he was kind, assuring her: ‘I don’t look so good myself. It’s fine.’

He bought her a bungalow near the sea in Florida and another former PoW helped him to build a railing so she could pull herself over the dunes to the water.

‘I thought, of course, we would live happily ever after,’ says Carol. But as a war hero, McCain was moving in ever-more elevated circles.


Through Ross Perot, he met Ronald Reagan, then Governor of California. A sympathetic Nancy Reagan took Carol under her wing. But already the McCains’ marriage had begun to fray. ‘John started carousing and running around with women,’ said Robert Timberg.

McCain has acknowledged that he had girlfriends during this time, without going into details. Some friends blame his dissatisfaction with Carol, but others give some credence to her theory of a mid-life crisis. He was also fiercely ambitious, but it was clear he would never become an admiral like his illustrious father and grandfather and his thoughts were turning to politics.

In 1979 – while still married to Carol – he met Cindy at a cocktail party in Hawaii. Over the next six months he pursued her, flying around the country to see her. Then he began to push to end his marriage. Carol and her children were devastated. ‘It was a complete surprise,’ says Nancy Reynolds, a former Reagan aide.

‘They never displayed any difficulties between themselves. I know the Reagans were quite shocked because they loved and respected both Carol and John.’

Another friend added: ‘Carol didn’t fight him. She felt her infirmity made her an impediment to him. She justified his actions because of all he had gone through. She used to say, “He just wants to make up for lost time.”’

Indeed, to many in their circle the saddest part of the break-up was Carol’s decision to resign herself to losing a man she says she still adores.

Friends confirm she has remained friends with McCain and backed him in all his campaigns. ‘He was very generous to her in the divorce but of course he could afford to be, since he was marrying Cindy,’ one observed.

McCain transferred the Florida beach house to Carol and gave her the right to live in their jointly-owned townhouse in the Washington suburb of Alexandria. He also agreed to pay her alimony and child support.

A former neighbour says she subsequently sold up in Florida and Washington and moved in 2003 to Virginia Beach. He said: ‘My impression was that she found the new place easier to manage as she still has some difficulties walking.’

Meanwhile McCain moved to Arizona with his new bride immediately after their 1980 marriage. There, his new father-in-law gave him a job and introduced him to local businessmen and political powerbrokers who would smooth his passage to Washington via the House of Representatives and Senate.


And yet despite his popularity as a politician, there are those who won’t forget his treatment of his first wife.

Ted Sampley, who fought with US Special Forces in Vietnam and is now a leading campaigner for veterans’ rights, said: ‘I have been following John McCain’s career for nearly 20 years. I know him personally. There is something wrong with this guy and let me tell you what it is – deceit.

‘When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it.

‘Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better.

‘This is a guy who makes such a big deal about his character. He has no character. He is a fake. If there was any character in that first marriage, it all belonged to Carol.’

One old friend of the McCains said: ‘Carol always insists she is not bitter, but
I think that’s a defence mechanism. She also feels deeply in his debt because in return for her agreement to a divorce, he promised to pay for her medical care for the rest of her life.’

Carol remained resolutely loyal as McCain’s political star rose. She says she agreed to talk to The Mail on Sunday only because she wanted to publicise her support for the man who abandoned her.

Indeed, the old Mercedes that she uses to run errands displays both a disabled badge and a sticker encouraging people to vote for her ex-husband. ‘He’s a good guy,’ she assured us. ‘We are still good friends. He is the best man for president.’

But Ross Perot, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel – even by the standards of modern politics.

‘McCain is the classic opportunist. He’s always reaching for attention and glory,’ he said.

‘After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona. And the rest is history.’


This Should Be In Political

[Guest]

Very interesting - thank you chelsea24

[Guest]

Chealsea - to the point again - what has Obama done to get you so gooey? On another post I asked you to just name two things he had done since reaching Washington. Blind hero worship made Hitler and Mussolini big men too. You are so wrapped up in the woman's angle in every post that you loose your objectivity.

[Guest]

Chelsea: Sorry, but if failed marriages, divorces, separations, annulments, infidelity,children born out of wedlock and general dishonesty were valid criteria for picking leaders, we would have a hard time finding any candidates and the halls of Congress and many State Houses would be empty.

Could it be that the real problem you have with McCain is worse than anything mentioned, he's a Republican.

[Guest]

Just read this whole thing.

Did not know any of that stuff.

Got one question.

Might that "knife-wielding floozy nicknamed Marie the Flame of Florida" be living right there in TV now? :yikes:

Boomer

[Guest]

Chel,
Interesting post and I agree you have a point. :bigthumbsup:
Now tell me about this temper McCain has. >:(
What about his age? I prefer someone who cares about the future and will be here !!! :)

They say he is a McBush. Help! :o Gas is $4.27 here and going up everyday. :o >:( >:( >:(

[Guest]

The original post speaks of Obama's lack of experience. Rather than find anything with substance about John McCain, someone points out that he got a divorce. ::)

Wow that's a really good comparison there. ::)

[Guest]

Chel,
Interesting post and I agree you have a point. :bigthumbsup:
Now tell me about this temper McCain has. >:(
What about his age? I prefer someone who cares about the future and will be here !!! :)

They say he is a McBush. Help! :o Gas is $4.27 here and going up everyday. :o >:( >:( >:(

I'm more concerned with finding someone who wants to be president, rather than someone who just keeps "trading up" in titles.

As far as age goes, the older the better. There's less chance of repeating mistakes someone else has made by thinking you have a "new idea."

[Guest]

OK. I am not here to defend McCain, but will somebody please tell me what the big deal is about his age? Age is a relative thing. We all know people in their 70's and even 80's who have the brainpower to do just fine at whatever they choose to do.

I am weary of this whole age issue.

And of all the demographics, ours should not be harping away on the age thing.

Sometimes I get a little hinky, what with the unfunded liability of the boomers slouching toward Medicare and all. Don't want to hear about a bill called "Operation Ice Floes" making its way through Congress.

The last time I saw McCain on television, he looked cognizant and continent enough.

I am just waiting for him to start talking to me about healthcare and about the economy and about a bunch of other stuff. I'm looking for a man with a plan. Don't tell me how great it's gonna be, honey. Tell me how you're gonna do it.

Oh, and I am waiting to see who gets McCain's VP nod. That is huge with me. I sure hope he does not pander to the far, far right to bring in a block of kneejerk voters. I would be extremely uncomfortable with that kind of focus from a VP. No matter how old the president might be.

And I don't want to hear about anybody's sex life. Not McCain's. Did not want to hear about Bill's. And I sure don't want the sex lives of any consenting adults to become a political platform in this, or any election.

It's time to get real. Talk to me about the future of the American people. Talk to me in specifics.

Talk to me, Johnny, or I am breaking up with the Republicans for sure.

Got me no source to cite. Got me nuthin' to cut and paste. I am just. . .

Boomer in a Snit

( :edit: :edit: :edit: I tried so hard not to get into anything political. But then I tried so hard not to eat that ice cream a few minutes ago, too.)

[Guest]

Boomer, you said it well. Thank you. Oh, and share the ice cream, woman! My freezer's too full for any.

[Guest]

All this as I open my Blue Cross bill to a MONTHLY increase (just for me), of $130.00.


Shirleevee

[Guest]

As Mcain told the (small) crowd recently, he’s super qualified to be President due to his extensive foreign policy experience dealing with Vladimir Putin…the President of Germany.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5ENwej0fpc

Come on people.......we don't need another term of this BS.

THINK

[Guest]

Thank God you have Obama to protect the 57 states!

[Guest]

As far as age goes, the older the better. There's less chance of repeating mistakes someone else has made by thinking you have a "new idea."


I disagree - as age goes up, so does the chance for mental decline. And considering McCains's recent gaffs...

[Guest]

This is just one mans opinion......

I am not enamored about John Mcain for sure as I was not with GW Bush in 2004 thus in 2004 and this year I look at the alternative. In 2004 I found John Kerry to be "scary"....this election I find Senator Obama much more scarier.......

Senator Obama is inexperienced for sure....but that is not what bothers me. What I cannot bet over is his background...

....His first employer was Saul Alinsky, who is well known as a Marxist. Sen Obama give him lots and lots of credit for training.

....His religious mentor (and I am sure all are tired of this,but it IS relative) the man he turned to for advice was Rev Wright.

....He has ties to another socialist type....William Ayers. How close..who knows

These things really bother me and since he is inexperienced, I need to look at his background. If you add in his rating as most liberal senator you see a real left socialist leaning.

Add to this his sponsored bill in Congress...the "Global Poverty Act" has words in the bill that say ".....a redistribution of the worlds resources..." and I will be honest, it scares me quite a bit.

Just one mans opinion

[Guest]

Bucco: It is more than scary, it is plain dangerous. The man is hidding a lot of things, starting with his middle name, Why doesnt he use it. I am a Republican and will never vote Democrat, but besides the point, he has the experience of less than a term in the Senate, does not even qualify him for freshman. Yesterday Kadafi (remember him from Libya) called him BROTHER and the Kenyan with the american name. If this does not scare the democrats they will qualify as legally blind.

[Guest]

I disagree - as age goes up, so does the chance for mental decline. And considering McCains's recent gaffs...

I guess we agree to disagree. But since I'm starting to advance in years, I may forget what the disagreement is about....

I'm more into "wisdom" from those to whom I delegate any authority. For me the time hasn't come to declare which one of the two remaining Senators is the most wise. However, I must admit that I do lean to the elder as having demostrated wisdom many more times than the younger, who has yet to demonstrate anything at all other than charisma.

[Guest]

I disagree - as age goes up, so does the chance for mental decline. And considering McCains's recent gaffs...



I guess we agree to disagree. But since I'm starting to advance in years, I may forget what the disagreement is about....

I'm more into "wisdom" from those to whom I delegate any authority. For me the time hasn't come to declare which one of the two remaining Senators is the most wise. However, I must admit that I do lean to the elder as having demostrated wisdom many more times than the younger, who has yet to demonstrate anything at all other than charisma.


When we harp on the gaffs a candidate makes, regardless of the side, we say more about our absence of reasonable arguments. Whether it be Dan Quayle spelling potato incorrectly, one of GW's infamous misstatements, Big Al claiming to invent the internet, or Bubba decrying the church burnings in Arkansas that never happened, we simply avoid discussing actual important items. Liberal jackels are quick to condemn McCain as senile because he confuses Shia and Sunni, not an uncommon error amongst anyone referring to the region, or references Putin as President of Germany in a midst of a statement that started with him saying he was in a conference in Germany and President Putin of Germany . . . But what do they say when Obama refers to having toured all 57 states? Right wing nuts use this as proof that Obama is a Muslim terrorist since there are 57 Islamic states. If McCain makes bloopers because he's senile, does Obama do so because he's ignorant? Equally asinine reactions. These guys speak publically 24x7. They're always on camera or on tape. Anyone makes a slip of the tongue and to attribute any greater meaning says more about the stupidity of the person making the assertion than the character or abilities of the politician.

HOWEVER, if one of these folks were to make a similar blunder as a integral part of a prepared presentation and continued with the thought, e.g.., had McCain actually confused Putin and Merkel and attributed Merkel's action in Germany to Putin or had Obama started rattling off the states as Iowa, Dubai, Montana, Indonesia, Arizona, Yemen, etc., there'd be a problem. A slip is a slip and means nothing. Saying something you really mean but did not mean to say out loud for public consumption is not an innocent slip of the tongue. It is a gotcha, and should be attacked with all vehemence.

[Guest]

I totally agree Muncle,
The slips and gaffs are just not important. Make as many public appearances as these candidates do and see how many times you could miss speak or confuse details. The news media will make your mistakes the headlines and people will follow their lead and make those gaffs the substance of a campaign.
To all the candidates I say just give me information about the policies and programs you will be proposing for our economy and freedom. I want details, not rhetoric, not what is wrong with your oppositions program, just real facts about your qualifications to be our president.

[Guest]

I have to respectfully disagree. I will give them the benefit of the doubt on some verbal slip ups; after all they are human, under a lot of stress, not enough sleep during the brutal primaries, etc., but I do think some of the gaffs are important. For instance McCain's recent one where he said the date when U.S. troops can begin to withdraw from Iraq is "not too important."

The Arizona senator made the comments on NBC's Today Show where he was asked if he had an estimate of when a withdrawal process may be possible.

"No, but that's not too important," McCain replied. "What’s important is the casualties in Iraq, Americans are in South Korea, Americans are in Japan, American troops are in Germany. That’s all fine. American casualties and the ability to withdraw; we will be able to withdraw."

Frankly, to me, this statement showed how out of touch he is.

And the other gaff, relating to shiites and sunnis'. He made it like 5 times in a row, and didn't even realize it until Lieberman corrected him.

And it isn't like he's had a pressure filled primary to work thru like Obama and Clinton.

I just have some doubts about his mental astuteness.

[Guest]

I totally agree Muncle,
The slips and gaffs are just not important. Make as many public appearances as these candidates do and see how many times you could miss speak or confuse details. The news media will make your mistakes the headlines and people will follow their lead and make those gaffs the substance of a campaign.
To all the candidates I say just give me information about the policies and programs you will be proposing for our economy and freedom. I want details, not rhetoric, not what is wrong with your oppositions program, just real facts about your qualifications to be our president.


24 X 7 new is a curse, as is the bias of much of the media. Had George Bush given Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" spee3ch, the headline in the NY Times and the lead on all MSNBC shows would have been "Bush calls himself a doughnut!".

[Guest]

Let me see if I have this straight. According to Muncle slips and gaffes shouldn't count but how many times has Muncle mentioned Obama's slip about the 57 states, including in this thread? Guess they only don't matter when they pertain to McCain?

They've both made some misstatements. Most have been minor, a couple have been serious. They'll both make many more before the election. Let's cut them both a little slack. If we truly think the misstatement is serious, then mention it, debate it and then let it go. If it is a simple slip of the tongue, just let it go and don't bring it up.

[Guest]

Never ever heard of anyone voting for or against anyone because of a :slip of the tongue".....altho I am sure that somewhere at some time someone has !

Right now, before the debates we need to concentrate on the backgrounds of each candidate and their personal qualifications. As the weeks go on and the debates come into play we need to start looking at each persons stance on the issues we find important.

Having said all that, someone referred to the 24/7 news channels on this thread......the bad thing is the 24/7 news channels who have their own spin on thiings PLUS the internet where you can find a website to validate whatever you want to validate (UFOs anyone?).
The sad thing is that most folks will vote on sound bites, blogs, etc that do not even represent the facts OR they will vote straight party just because...which I absolutely do not agree with.

[Guest]

Let me see if I have this straight. According to Muncle slips and gaffes shouldn't count but how many times has Muncle mentioned Obama's slip about the 57 states, including in this thread? Guess they only don't matter when they pertain to McCain?

They've both made some misstatements. Most have been minor, a couple have been serious. They'll both make many more before the election. Let's cut them both a little slack. If we truly think the misstatement is serious, then mention it, debate it and then let it go. If it is a simple slip of the tongue, just let it go and don't bring it up.


Okay, if you're accusing me of it, let's look:


When we harp on the gaffs a candidate makes, regardless of the side, we say more about our absence of reasonable arguments. Whether it be Dan Quayle spelling potato incorrectly, one of GW's infamous misstatements, Big Al claiming to invent the internet, or Bubba decrying the church burnings in Arkansas that never happened, we simply avoid discussing actual important items. Liberal jackels are quick to condemn McCain as senile because he confuses Shia and Sunni, not an uncommon error amongst anyone referring to the region, or references Putin as President of Germany in a midst of a statement that started with him saying he was in a conference in Germany and President Putin of Germany . . . But what do they say when Obama refers to having toured all 57 states? Right wing nuts use this as proof that Obama is a Muslim terrorist since there are 57 Islamic states. If McCain makes bloopers because he's senile, does Obama do so because he's ignorant? Equally asinine reactions. These guys speak publically 24x7. They're always on camera or on tape. Anyone makes a slip of the tongue and to attribute any greater meaning says more about the stupidity of the person making the assertion than the character or abilities of the politician.

HOWEVER, if one of these folks were to make a similar blunder as a integral part of a prepared presentation and continued with the thought, e.g.., had McCain actually confused Putin and Merkel and attributed Merkel's action in Germany to Putin or had Obama started rattling off the states as Iowa, Dubai, Montana, Indonesia, Arizona, Yemen, etc., there'd be a problem. A slip is a slip and means nothing. Saying something you really mean but did not mean to say out loud for public consumption is not an innocent slip of the tongue. It is a gotcha, and should be attacked with all vehemence.




Thank God you have Obama to protect the 57 states!


Which was a direct reply to:


As Mcain told the (small) crowd recently, he’s super qualified to be President due to his extensive foreign policy experience dealing with Vladimir Putin…the President of Germany.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5ENwej0fpc

Come on people.......we don't need another term of this BS.

THINK



As is patently obvious to the most casual observer, the only mention I ever made of Mr. Obama idiotic, some say Freudian, slip of referring to the 57 States was to point out the asininity of harping of such things. I may at some time have referred to Heinz 57 Varieties or the '57 Milwaukee Braves, but not Mr. Obama's 57 States. Now quite possibly you've been giving a lot of thought to Mr. Obama's 57 State comment (there, I've repeated it more times in this paragraph as I've written it in the entire forum) because you're beginning to question your seeming preference for, at best, an empty suit. But I cannot say that with any certainty as I'm not a psychiatrist or even psychologist. I really don't know why.

[Guest]

You're right, Muncle. I owe you an apology. I did a search and you either did not mention the 57 states before or the search did not find them. Sorry.

[Guest]

Irish Rover: I'm not sure what the "all gooey" statement means. And contrary to YOUR opinion, I have never and will never blindly follow anyone. If you're interested in some reasons I'm pro Obama, you can read my "Where's the Beef" post.

p.s. My favorite gaffe was McCain calling Putin the President of Germany!
Oh lucy, I can't take another 4 years of dumb!

[Guest]

The choice is pretty clear. Do you feel America should become an empire and preemptive strike any nation that has resources we need? Do you look forward to government that doesn't function and will eliminate social security? Do you feel secret containment camps which allow people to just vanish and be tortured are good for the country? Do you believe the middle class should be eliminated? Do you think the media and internet should be controlled by the government? Do you believe we should always be in a state of war because that is what fuels an empire that believes that might makes right?
About 80% of the country now feels stay the course is not an option. They see the dark path we are on. If the votes get counted this time and the results don't reflect this we will know that democracy and freedom will be in grave jeopardy.

[Guest]

Warning: Bush's War? .......View at your own discretion.

http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

[Guest]

Johnny, you should be ashamed of yourself. :edit: like the contents of your post above do not belong in this forum. You are dealing in fact and most obviously, facts have no place here. If you cannot be irrational and emotional, it would be best if you refrained from posting. No war for oil Bush lied and people died. Stay the course. Yes We Can. Change!!!

This is obviously Republican Spin, produced by excellent ventriloquists from FOX News or Rush Limbaugh.

[Guest]

The choice is pretty clear. Do you feel America should become an empire and preemptive strike any nation that has resources we need? Do you look forward to government that doesn't function and will eliminate social security? Do you feel secret containment camps which allow people to just vanish and be tortured are good for the country? Do you believe the middle class should be eliminated? Do you think the media and internet should be controlled by the government? Do you believe we should always be in a state of war because that is what fuels an empire that believes that might makes right?
About 80% of the country now feels stay the course is not an option. They see the dark path we are on. If the votes get counted this time and the results don't reflect this we will know that democracy and freedom will be in grave jeopardy.


I am sorry Muncle but I could not let the second sentence in JJ's post go. I am tired of hearing how this is all's GWB's fault. I don't agree with the rest of it either, but that is just my opinion.

[Guest]

Bush lied and people died.



You got that right Muncle. :bigthumbsup:

[Guest]

The choice is pretty clear. Do you feel America should become an empire and preemptive strike any nation that has resources we need? Do you look forward to government that doesn't function and will eliminate social security? Do you feel secret containment camps which allow people to just vanish and be tortured are good for the country? Do you believe the middle class should be eliminated? Do you think the media and internet should be controlled by the government? Do you believe we should always be in a state of war because that is what fuels an empire that believes that might makes right?
About 80% of the country now feels stay the course is not an option. They see the dark path we are on. If the votes get counted this time and the results don't reflect this we will know that democracy and freedom will be in grave jeopardy.


So, what's wrong with preemptive strikes? Why is it we have to get our noses bloodied before we take any action. If The USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 haven't taught us anything, it's that if you wait long enough, you WILL get tagged but good.

If social security takes a cut, it will be because of all the "extras" that have been added to it since its creation. However, since there are so many voters tied to it, and the fix always remains the same (raise the salary ceiling level), it will outlive all of us and then some.

Regarding "secret containment camps," I must say that I really don't care if they exist or not. If the end-goal is that Americans can sleep at night without sirens warning of impending attack, and that we can travel this country devoid of guerrilla warfare targeting us as we go, and that the "campers" found themselves there because they want to do my kids, my spouse, the rest of my family and friends, and even me some kind of harm for whatever reason, then to me that's at least some of my tax money spent for my safety - and it's okay with me.

The "empire" is the most philanthropic entity on the planet. The list of charities supported either solely or mainly by Americans is immense to the point that in some lands people can eat or have medicine only because of American compassion - individually and governmentally. We have empire-built all right, a humanitarian empire. We have not by swallowing up nations, but instead have been the most concerned neighbor most of these countries have ever seen, especially following the colonial regimes that held them hostage in prior years.

War sucks, but I truly believe peace-in-chains is worse. I'm not naive enough to believe that there will not be folk who will try to take by whatever means we as a diverse and united people have created in this slice of North America. Such nasty folk will be around forever. Experience has taught me that diplomacy goes only so far with a bully, and the best you can get with a bully is an armistice. Eventually, even if it is unfortunate to many, occasionally you may have to kick some butt if you want to keep what you got.

Nobody is more of a peacenik than someone who has been the hunted. You can find them in American Legion, VFW and VVA halls around the country. They may be part of that 80%, but not necessarily because they think the war is wrong, but the tactics and strategy are too familiar.

How or when this war ends should not be the issue. The REAL issue should be that when this war ends, the conclusion is such that we don't find ourselves back there in 10 to 20 years and much greater expense in lives and money to again take on what we should have had the guts and brains to finish correctly and completely the first time.

[Guest]

Well said Steve. I'm wondering why this thread even still has legs. What nonsense.

[Guest]

My question is this, How does one attend a church for 20 years and not know what their Pastor preaches or believes? Does Obama have a hearing problem?

[Guest]

My question is this, How does one attend a church for 20 years and not know what their Pastor preaches or believes? Does Obama have a hearing problem?

I guess I'm getting cynical as the years go by. It does not matter what Sen. Obama or Sen. McCain say from here on out. They have speechwriters, image consultants, makeup artists, public opinion analysts, and every other type of specialist to present whatever image best fits the audience du jour. The candidate from here out is a marionette.

From here on out, I'm paying more attention to finding out who is owed what for campaign services and endorsements, as those are the folks who will get the plum jobs as appointees when the confetti is swept away. Those appointees are the ones who really are the key folk, as they will be the advisers, directors, and overall Party controllers during the next administration.

[Guest]

My question is this, How does one attend a church for 20 years and not know what their Pastor preaches or believes? Does Obama have a hearing problem?

His hearing probably isn't any better than John McCain's.: "McCain has sought to shore up evangelicals skeptical about his stances on issues like stem-cell research and his past run-ins with movement leaders. But two evangelical pastors McCain did win over — John Hagee of Texas and Rod Parsley of Ohio — were tied to statements causing offense to all three monotheistic faiths.

Hagee has been criticized as anti-Catholic, but McCain rejected his endorsement only after a Web site unearthed a sermon Hagee gave portraying Hitler as a tool God used to deliver Jews to the promised land.

McCain disowned Parsley's endorsement after ABC News reported that he had called Islam an "anti-Christ" religion and the Prophet Muhammad "the mouthpiece of a conspiracy of spiritual evil.".

McCain supporters say it's unfair to equate his endorsements with the Obama-Wright saga. Wright, after all, was Obama's pastor for 20 years, while neither Hagee nor Parsley ever were pastors to McCain. Obama would have known about Wright's incendiary remarks if he spent any time in church, critics say.

Obama backers counter that a double-standard is at work if the pastors endorsing McCain aren't scrutinized, given that McCain sought them out and praised them as exemplary leaders."

[Guest]

Good post Lil Dancer!

[Guest]

Hey! slips of the tongue say a lot about the person like;

Poor people aren't necessarily killers.
Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment.
Eliminate the tollbooth to the middle class.
See, the Senate wants to take away some of the powers of the Administrative branch.
I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense.
Do you realize we've got 250 million years of coal?
Every case I have reviewed I have been comfortable with the innocence or guilt of the person that I've looked at. I do not believe we've put a guilty...I mean innocent person to death in the state of Texas.
Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods.
They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program.
God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear.
Eliminate the death tax, so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next, regardless of a person's race.
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?
George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing about him is that I read three---three or four books about him last year. Isn't that interesting?
Except when yer marchin' to war, it's not a very optimistic thought, is it? In other words, it's the opposite of optimistic when yer thinkin' yer goin' to war.
We spent a lot of time talkin' about Africa, as we should. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease.
Budget numbers are not just estimates; these are actual results for the fiscal year that ended February the thirtieth.
Unfairly but truthfully, our party has been tagged as bein' against things. Anti-immigrant, for example.
See, in my line 'o work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in...to kinda catapult the propaganda.
Heh heh heh. Heh heh heh. Heh heh heh.

It's hard to quote Bush...........you can't use the spell & grammer check. Can you believe this guy says GOD speaks thru him? Judgement day is going to be bad for King George.

[Guest]

God would certainly be more gramatically correct than GB, LOL! Great post JJ.

[Guest]

All right, I've laid off this for awhile, but you got me.
First, I have read that President Bush lied. Just when was this? Remembering, of course, that it is not a "lie" if you bellieve you are telling the truth. Also, I read that President Bush is "dumb". I see no evidence of this either. He has an Ivy league MBA. I know from experience that they do not give them away to dumb people.

[Guest]

You're right they don't give them away. George Bush blew the myth out of the water that an Ivy League degree was special. He lives by the rules that the only things important in this world are how much money you have and who you know. If you have enough money and connections you can buy an education and even the highest office in the land. All his life George has been telling people do you know who I am?, the rules don't apply to me and don't mess with me or you'll regret it. He appointed cronies with no experience or qualifications to important, responsible positions. Now some of his supporters on this board are saying experience matters? Where were they the last 8 years?
When has Bush told the truth?
We will withdraw from Iraq if the Iraq government asks us to, Iraqi's Oppose Withdrawal Timetable, Iraq presented an imminent threat to the US and its allies, The Bush administration repeatedly has constantly tried to link Iraq to the September 11th attacks, The Bush administration religiously chanted the contention that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction as its basis for a war, Bush charged that “ . . more than a hundred Democrats in the House and the Senate -- who had access to the same intelligence -- voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power, Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed that the number of troops in Iraq is not a decision I make. This is a decision that's made by the military commanders. [Retired] Gen. [Tommy R.] Franks, Gen. [John P.] Abizaid, Gen. [George W.] Casey [Jr.] have decided what those numbers are, And I have yet to hear from our commanders on the ground that they need more troops. President Bush (11/04/04), FISA could not have provided the speed and agility required for the early warning detection system."
I could go on and on.

[Guest]

To all of those out there who think torture is a good idea (I hope this is not some new club you folks are trying to get started, count me out!) read this;

The two-star general who led an Army investigation into the horrific detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib has accused the Bush administration of war crimes and is calling for accountability.
In his 2004 report on Abu Ghraib, then-Major General Anthony Taguba concluded that "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees." He called the abuse "systemic and illegal." The general was rewarded for his honesty by being forced into retirement. Now, in a preface to a Physicians for Human Rights report based on medical examinations of former detainees, Taguba adds an epilogue to his own investigation. The new report, he writes, "tells the largely untold human story of what happened to detainees in our custody when the Commander-in-Chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. Our national honor is stained by the indignity and inhumane treatment these men received from their captors."The profiles of these eleven former detainees, none of whom were ever charged with a crime or told why they were detained, are tragic and brutal rebuttals to those who claim that torture is ever justified. Through the experiences of these men in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay, we can see the full-scope of the damage this illegal and unsound policy has inflicted --both on America's institutions and our nation's founding values, which the military, intelligence services, and our justice system are duty-bound to defend. In order for these individuals to suffer the wanton cruelty to which they were subjected, a government policy was promulgated to the field whereby the Geneva Conventions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice were disregarded. The UN Convention Against Torture was indiscriminately ignored. . . . "After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."
This is just a general speaking, what does he know.

[Guest]

......
In his 2004 report on Abu Ghraib, then-Major General Anthony Taguba concluded that "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees." He called the abuse "systemic and illegal." The general was rewarded for his honesty by being forced into retirement. ...............
The profiles of these eleven former detainees, none of whom were ever charged with a crime or told why they were detained, are tragic and brutal rebuttals to those who claim that torture is ever justified. ..........

It is understandable that folks can find themselves horrified that Americans could inflict torture upon anyone. After all, we're all supposed to be holier-than-thou and follow the "say Uncle" concept of ending a fight.

To despise torture is easy from one's armchair. It's very easy to understand it being applied by over-stressed young people who have witnessed friends blown apart, knowing full well that such horror is forthcoming and those "individuals" know who is behind it, probably when it will happen next, may have participated in the horror, and know where the traps and IEDs are.

General Taguba's report was highly detailed in its description of all of the factors - morale, training, stress, vagueness of orders, command failures, etc. - leading to the Abu Ghraib situation. It's worth reading the entire report to get a better understanding of what those young people at the far end of the feed chain experienced.

Warfare is not a clean and neat event. It's the most brutal experience there is, and the Marquis of Queensbury Rules do not apply. At the armchair and ivory tower level, warfare is more observed than experienced, and in most circumstances becomes an intricate chess match or numbers game. For those in lofty status, quoting UN rules and Codes of Conduct is very easy, and makes the whole warfare experience "simplified." However, for the grunt having to be in the muck and mire, stressed, seeing body parts flying in different directions, it just isn't that cut-and-dried. It takes a LOT of training and discipline to keep a force in control, and when you just don't have the training to match the situation, "stuff" happens and it just ain't pretty.

Crimes are crimes, and those who commit them find themselves prosecuted if the evidence is there to indicate a conviction will occur. However, political prosecutions because "we just know..." is an abuse of the justice system, and also a crime.

Do the ones who qualify as "rich and/or famous" normally have "less justice" meted out on them? Well, that's been the way it has been as long as I've followed the legal system. From OJ to Brittany to Ted Kennedy to a list ad infinitum, that's the way it has been.

[Guest]

Stevez: Well said, there can not be a clean war.
Regarding the Powerful, Rich, Famous and Politicians. We are all equal under the law; however some are "more equal" than others.