Stick a Fork in Tiger

[TheVillageChicken]

There has been a lot of talk over the last couple of years about Tiger's chances of winning another major. I am convinced now that he will never win another event on the PGA tour. Even if he can get focused and healthy, the young talent out there far exceeds his abilities at age 40, and there are more of these phenoms joining the tour each year. Jack will remain the greatest ever for some time to come.

Just my opinion, but I would put money on it.

Thoughts?

[Cajulian]

I think you are right. Any athlete that competes as infrequently as he does, even if healthy cannot maintain the physical sharpness and muscle memory that is required to excel.

I think he thought he was invincible earlier in his career and just didn't play enough to stay sharp. And then injuries set in. Now it looks too late for him.

Also, his head got in the way. When he was at his best, he decides he has to change his swing so many times, that he lost his way completely.

[Indydealmaker]

There has been a lot of talk over the last couple of years about Tiger's chances of winning another major. I am convinced now that he will never win another event on the PGA tour. Even if he can get focused and healthy, the young talent out there far exceeds his abilities at age 40, and there are more of these phenoms joining the tour each year. Jack will remain the greatest ever for some time to come.

Just my opinion, but I would put money on it.

Thoughts?

Phil Mickelson has a different opinion.

[Polar Bear]

I tend to agree. But Tiger was blessed with such amazing natural talent, that I'm a bit hesitant to write him totally off just yet. I am no fan of Tiger, but I do enjoy watching him compete...hopefully flaming out on Sunday or some such thing!! :a20:

I also agree that, with such amazing talent and success, why has he gone through so many swing changes? Big mistake imho.

[graciegirl]

Brilliant. Well wired. Well educated. Nice looking. Hot head and narcissistic.

Threw his REAL life away. NEEDS the adoration. Will never come back.

[dbussone]

Brilliant. Well wired. Well educated. Nice looking. Hot head and narcissistic.

Threw his REAL life away. NEEDS the adoration. Will never come back.

Agree 100%. He will never come back.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Unfortunately, it appears that Tiger has developed the yips in his chipping game. This can be disastrous to ones golf game. I know. It happened to me.

I wasn't at Tiger's level, but it brought me to a point where I didn't want to play any more.

Most people associate the yips with putting, but it can occur in any part of your golf game. In fact it happens to people in other endeavors as well. It is well known to musicians, especially pianists.

There are a lot of solutions for players who get it in their putting game. Cross handed grip, claw grip, long putter and all kinds of other tools have helped players like Bernhard Langer to be successful in spite of putting yips. When you get the yips with your driver or in your chipping game, there are no such "cures".

The condition is technically called focal dystonia and it has been studied by experts for years. In some instances it has been overcome with a lot of hard work and various therapies. In most cases it never is completely cured.

It's pretty ironic that the foremost expert on the yips in golf is Tiger's former teacher, Hank Haney. Hank helped my with my yips about ten years ago with a small amount of success. I was also fortunate to be able to get some help from the noted sports psychologist, Bob Rotella, but even with that, I was never completely cured. I think that the split between Tiger and Hank was a bit acrimonious but I can't say for sure. (Hank never really said anything to me about it, but I got the impression that he wasn't happy. All he ever said was that he was happy to have had the opportunity to have worked with the greatest player in the world and that it increased his income but a huge amount. But I always got the impression that he wasn't very happy about being dismissed, especially after having helped Tiger to win more majors than any other coach.) So I don't know if Tiger can go to him for help or not.

Hank has done numerous studies on the yips and works with a couple of German doctors on learning as much as he can about the condition and possible remedies. Hank himself had the yips with his driver. It was so bad that he couldn't finish a round of golf. If there is anyone that can help Tiger, it's Hank and his staff.

Can Tiger come back from this? In my very humble opinion, it's highly unlikely, but we're talking about Tiger Woods here. Tiger works harder than anyone in the history of the game. He thinks about his golf game and how to improve it 24/7. Tiger has done things that no other human has done I would be impressed, but not totally surprised if he could overcome this. True, he's going to be 40 this year, but in this day and age, players play and continue to win into their fifties. If he can get his body in shape and somehow be cured of the yips who knows what he might accomplish? But, those are two big ifs. With the physical problems he's had and now this, he seems to have two strikes against him.

It's really pretty sad to see. I was thinking that I night see all of Jack Nicklaus' records broken in my lifetime. Tiger even had a shot at Byron nelson's record which I have always maintained is the one record in all of sports that will never be broken.

But whatever happens, it's been a joy and a privilege to have watched this guy play this game.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I think he'll try to come back and play, but he will never, ever be the same player. I'll go as far to say he'll never be in contention again going into a Sunday. The swing changes (why, oh why?) didn't work and he has too much going on in that 6" space between his ears, his worse distance in golf right now. No one fears him anymore, especially the young guns. Stick a fork in him, he is well done.

[Chi-Town]

Perhaps the senior tour. Who knows?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think he'll try to come back and play, but he will never, ever be the same player. I'll go as far to say he'll never be in contention again going into a Sunday. The swing changes (why, oh why?) didn't work and he has too much going on in that 6" space between his ears, his worse distance in golf right now. No one fears him anymore, especially the young guns. Stick a fork in him, he is well done.

I honestly don't think that swing changes have ever had anything to do with his success, or lack thereof. The strongest part of Tiger's game when he was winning was his short game. He did have tournaments where he struck the ball very well, but he was never a great driver or iron player. He hit it long but was never very accurate. What he did better than anyone else was to get it in the hole. He made miles of putts and got the ball up and down from impossible places. He was statistically, the best chipper and pitcher of the golf ball ever.

I think that your second point is very valid however. His fall began right after the "incident" which led to the divorce. He's won very little since then and has really not contended very often. Good golf, especially at the top level, depends more on confidence than anything else. Tiger had more confidence than anyone as did Jack Nicklaus.

Jack once said, "I know that I can beat my opponent and he knows that I can beat him. He also knows that I know that I can beat him." That means more than the ability to hit it well or make putts. I think that something happened to Tiger's confidence when his wife caught him and he was exposed to the world.
When you have confidence, you look at where you want the ball to end up and hit there. When you don't have confidence, you start looking at all the places it might end up if you miss.

[Polar Bear]

I honestly don't think that swing changes have ever had anything to do with his success, or lack thereof...he was never a great driver or iron player. He hit it long but was never very accurate...

I agree with much you say...especially regarding his downfall after "the incident". But I very much disagree with the above. Tiger in his prime was long AND accurate. Nobody, including Tiger, wins majors...especially the US Open...playing consistently out of the rough.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree with much you say...especially regarding his downfall after "the incident". But I very much disagree with the above. Tiger in his prime was long AND accurate. Nobody, including Tiger, wins majors...especially the US Open...playing consistently out of the rough.

He certainly had streaks where he hit it extremely well. He ball striking at the 2000 US Open at Pebble Beach may have been the best anyone has ever seen. But, overall, he was never in the top statistics in driving accuracy or total driving even though he was he consistently in the top ten in driving distance. Don't forget, he would hit a lot of irons and three woods off the tees in US Opens. Remember how he won the British at Royal Liverpool in 2006? I don't know if he hit a driver all week. As long as he could hit a two iron, he didn't need to hit driver to win those US Opens.

Also, look at the courses where he won his US Opens, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines and Beth Page Black. Pebble and Torrey are sea side courses where the rough doesn't grow as thick as say a Wing Foot or Medina. Pebble was also very short and Beth Page was not overly long. They were courses where he could hit irons off the tees. At Torrey, he won in a playoff against Rocco Mediate of all people. Now, I love Rocco. He's a very good player and one of the true characters and nice guys in all of sports. But would anyone ever expect him to win a US Open? The course just wasn't set up all that hard.

The other majors reward length over distance. He didn't have to be very accurate to win at Augusta or The PGA or British for the most part. Consider that John Daly won the PGA Championship and the British Open.

The statistic that changed the most when Tiger began to decline was three putt avoidance. He began three putting from long distances. In fact all of his putting stats fell. He wasn't making all the short putts for birdies or pars that he had been making for years. His up and down percentages from various distances fell dramatically as well. Some of his ball striking stats declined, but not as much as his short game stats.

[bagboy]

I grew up a Nicklaus fan, and with respect to golf, I am a Tiger fan. In my opinion the biggest difference in the two is that Jack didn't make golf complicated. He took his physical game and mental toughness to the golf course every tournament and that was good enough to be the best golfer we have seen in our generation, maybe ever. When he needed a bit of polishing, he called on his long time mentor and coach Jack Grout.
As for Tiger, in my opinion, had he followed the same path and trusted his natural talent and mental ability along with his great work ethic, he would have exceeded the accomplishments of Jack. But in his effort to be even greater than what he was, he tore up his body with a fitness regimen unsuited for golf, and filled his head with swing thoughts from variety of sources, some better than others.
Without a doubt Tiger has been good for the game of golf and the professional golfing world. But maybe "has been" is where he is now. I don't know, none of us do. The next few months will be very telling. If he were not Tiger, I would have stuck that proverbial fork in him. I won't do that just yet...but I'm close.

[Paper1]

How quick we are to kick someone to the curb who has done so much to bring the sport to where it is now. If he with his talent had been able to play 20 years before he did he would own every record in the books. He did for golf what Ali did for boxing.

[graciegirl]

How quick we are to kick someone to the curb who has done so much to bring the sport to where it is now. If he with his talent had been able to play 20 years before he did he would own every record in the books. He did for golf what Ali did for boxing.


Maybe his swing did, but not his swingin'.

[Madelaine Amee]

I think Tiger's problems go way back into his childhood. If you compare the type of upbringing that Jack had to that of Tiger, there is a huge difference in every way. Jack appears to have come from a very stable background whereas from the little we really know, Tiger appears to come from a very unstable background. IMHO he had enormous talent as a young child, and has been put on a pedestal from the time he was very young, I have to believe he was told he was a gift to the golfing world, and (I think) was pushed into the world of making huge money instead of staying in college and taking a more normal route. I am a firm believer in that we are a product of our environment...........

If he had gradually quit when his body started to fail he could have been a super star for the rest of his life, instead he is going to be remembered primarily for the "incident" which basically ruined his life. A terrible waste.:sad:

[Polar Bear]

...He did for golf what Ali did for boxing.
No way.

Tiger increased interest in golf, no doubt. But Arnie is the one who took golf from just another game to the major sport that it is today. If not for Arnie, Tiger would not have had the stage to perform on that he did.

[tomwed]

Arnie made the game respectable for WW2 blue collar workers. Remember the old black and white movies? Did those golfers remind you of your dad? Arnie did. That's when my dad picked up the game and took me along once or twice a year starting when I was 12.

In those days, you were lucky if your dad played catch with you and you talked sports. I got lucky. My dad would go to my little league games mostly to watch me sit the bench. The same with freshman football. My dad was easy to please.

Tiger's dad had him in training or allowed him to train since he could walk. He wore out his joints. Tiger completed a round of golf and won a golf tournament with a broken leg.
I'm sure other athletes would take that kind of punishment for the team but Tiger did that for himself. Why? There's something wrong with him upstairs.

He might be able to make a comeback.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think Tiger's problems go way back into his childhood. If you compare the type of upbringing that Jack had to that of Tiger, there is a huge difference in every way. Jack appears to have come from a very stable background whereas from the little we really know, Tiger appears to come from a very unstable background. IMHO he had enormous talent as a young child, and has been put on a pedestal from the time he was very young, I have to believe he was told he was a gift to the golfing world, and (I think) was pushed into the world of making huge money instead of staying in college and taking a more normal route. I am a firm believer in that we are a product of our environment...........

If he had gradually quit when his body started to fail he could have been a super star for the rest of his life, instead he is going to be remembered primarily for the "incident" which basically ruined his life. A terrible waste.:sad:

Huh?? We know a tremendous amount about Tiger's upbringing and there is nothing to suggest that it was in any way unstable. He had a loving father and mother. His father began bringing him to the golf course when he was very young and Tiger loved it. Earl Woods spent countless hour working with Tiger on his game. But only because Tiger loved doing it. He was never forced to go to the golf course. He looked forward to it every time his father would come home from work.
He still has a wonderful relationship with his mother who sometimes attends his tournaments.
I do believe that he has constantly tried to make too many "improvements" in his swing and they might have led to his over complicating things. In fact his breakup with Hank Haney came after Hank told him to stop worrying about his swing and start trying to improve his three putt avoidance stats. All of the complicated thoughts may be what has led to the chipping yips. Once you start trying to understand and analyze every movement you can tend to not let things just happen as they need to.
Tiger's work with Butch Harmon was productive and helped him a bit. When he got together with Hank Haney, upon the advice of Mark O'Meara, his game really came together. Hank worked on his plane a lot which was not great during his amateur career and his early professional career. After that and even in his last days with Hank, he began to get a bit too into the minutiae. The of course, a short time after that was the incident with his wife and the exposure of his somewhat seedy personal life. I really believe that after that, his min was never the same.

I don't think anyone is kicking anyone to the curb by the way. I was and still am a big Tiger fan. He did for golf in the minority communities and with youth what Arnie did for the blue collar workers. When Tiger played, golf interest among those two demographics exploded. The game grew as much during Tiger's peak years as it ever had. I know, I was in the business before and during the Tiger years.

I do think however that we can realistically look at what has happened to him in the past several years. He is certainly not the dominating force that he once was. Even before this latest comeback, he was not dominating. And, if he does indeed, as I suspect, have the chipping yips, the chances of him having another comeback are remote. I'd love to see him come back and break Jack's records, but sadly, I am having serious doubts that that will ever happen. I say that with sadness. Not in the spirit of kicking him to the curb.

[Paper1]

Arnie made the game respectable for WW2 blue collar workers. Remember the old black and white movies? Did those golfers remind you of your dad? Arnie did. That's when my dad picked up the game and took me along once or twice a year starting when I was 12.

In those days, you were lucky if your dad played catch with you and you talked sports. I got lucky. My dad would go to my little league games mostly to watch me sit the bench. The same with freshman football. My dad was easy to please.

Tiger's dad had him in training or allowed him to train since he could walk. He wore out his joints. Tiger completed a round of golf and won a golf tournament with a broken leg.
I'm sure other athletes would take that kind of punishment for the team but Tiger did that for himself. Why? There's something wrong with him upstairs.

He might be able to make a comeback.
Arnie was great for game but Tiger is the one who facilitated a flood of kids getting into a game. When I grew up golf was not for people in my family's income bracket. I suspect if you just looked at computer generated stats neither Jack of Arnie would match up with Woods. Just my opinion though.

[Polar Bear]

...I suspect if you just looked at computer generated stats neither Jack of Arnie would match up with Woods...
Not sure what stats you might be talking about...

If you look at stats describing play during their peak years, Arnie is not even close to Tiger. Jack vs Tiger would be a decent comparison I believe, but for those years Tiger was at his peak, I think he wins out over Jack too. Of course the biggie is major championships...not just my opinion, but that of Tiger and most truly great golfers also. Jack is number one. And it looks more and more unlikely that Tiger will reach that record.

But if you look at other stats, the story might be a bit different. Palmer won the PGA's Lifetime Achievement Award, as well as the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal His positive impact has been felt far beyond the world of golf. And through it all he remains very humble and accessible. Jack is (imho) a bit behind Arnie in such a comparison. But he also has always maintained his integrity and that of the game.

I'm not sure what kind of stats might be used to quantify this sort of comparison. But no matter how you decide to do it, Tiger isn't even in the same league as Arnie and Jack.

[tomwed]

Remember when he was only 2 years old and on the Mike Douglas show?
click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHkA_983_s)

[TheVillageChicken]

Phil Mickelson has a different opinion.

I'll see your Phillie Mick and raise you a Norman (http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/31316/20150225/pga-tour-2015-tiger-woods-will-never-return-to-top-form-says-greg-norman.htm)

[Topspinmo]

IMO tiger problems started when he was hanging with the BB players. Bad habits come back to bit you sooner or later. Hype and media makes great golfers or brings them down. There will always be the one that should of or could of. But, due to self-destruction or pressure fold. Europeans are on top right now, just like Asian girls on the women tour. Amazing you don't here much about them over here. Was it Tiger the caused the invasion or the prize money? IMO both.

[Topspinmo]

I'll see your Phillie Mick and raise you a Norman (http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/31316/20150225/pga-tour-2015-tiger-woods-will-never-return-to-top-form-says-greg-norman.htm)

I'll see your Norman and raise you Rory.