Decline of Values? [Archive] - Talk of The Villages Florida

Russ_Boston

06-30-2008, 04:20 PM

Like rose bushes and toxic weeds, people who mock whatever "values" we have left won't be on my agenda, either.

I don't mean to pick on gfmucci but it got me thinking about values in our country. On this website I read an awful lot about how earlier generations were kinder or more courteous or had more character. Usually the writer is referring to his/her own generation as being the best at it. Maybe that is natural but...

If you think about it what you are saying is that your grandparents and great grandpareants etc. were WORSE at it than you. And since your generation every new one has gotten WORSE at it. So what you are saying when you spout this crap is that ONLY your generation knew any manners or had any character or morals. At what point did these values stop growing? When your generation was born?

I don't feel that way. I know of many young people who live a very moral and decent life and participate in society in many beneficial ways. I think back to my early childhood and I saw bathrooms labeled 'whites only' or race riots in Detroit. Or women making one half or 3/4 of what men made in the same jobs. A woman executive was hard to find. Or young men being drafted into a war that they didn't feel was right just because the government said so. The list goes on and on.

I'm not so sure that our values were any better 'back in the day'.

"Just my opinion - I might be wrong" - [Dennis Miller].

redwitch

06-30-2008, 04:52 PM

I think every generation has its good and its bad. I honestly think my parents' ethics and values were better than my generation's. We started out right but something happened in the 60s and 70s -- while we forced many good changes (Jim Crow laws, equal rights), we also took away some basic family ethics. The next generation saw too much of "me" and not enough of "us" because both parents worked, things became important, the not my business attitude. My daughter's generation is an interesting mix -- many are very altruistic; many are complete and total slackers.

It does seem that kids of today expect things to be handed to them. They got a C in history, fight it and get it knocked up to an A, regardless of what was earned. They do something wrong and their parents are quick to defend them, blame the other kid who was involved, blame anyone but their own child. This makes it hard to learn responsibility. Yet, these same kids manage to grow up and become wonderful, responsible adults. So, obviously, they are learning true values somewhere along the line.

What I find disappointing is that someone will know a thing is wrong and do it anyway or not do the right thing because it is easier, cheaper, whatever. This seems to cross generational lines nowadays -- when I was growing up, your word was your bond. Not today. I've seen it in children, teens, young adults, the middleaged and the elderly. I don't like it and I don't understand it. So, I don't think it is necessarily a generation thing but rather an era and this era (starting with at least the late 70s) seems to be of the type that you get what you want however you can.

Russ_Boston

06-30-2008, 05:00 PM

Good points Red. Perhaps it does related to eras. Prosperity (of the era), or lack of, may also shape things as well.

Peggy D

06-30-2008, 11:19 PM

Well put Red.

I have noticed over the years a total lack of respect by children and young adults.

Never would we ever think of talking back to our parents, teachers, or any other adult for that matter. Yet, you see or hear of this happening every day. I have to say that I feel part of this is due to both parents working and not enough "family time" in the home.
We sat at the table and ate our meals--not in front of the TV.

Life now is too fast paced.

Sometimes I do wonder about the future generation--some "Just don't get it"--and neither do their parents.

efrahin

07-01-2008, 01:29 AM

My opinion in the subject is that everything started in the 60's with the hippies, drugs, woodstock, the pill, women liberation, etc. The family values were down the hill. The moment women went out to work and the kids were home alone without supervision: hell broke loose. And we are looking at the results today. I am not against women: I have 5 grandaughters, but I am pro family which is what we have destroyed.

JohnnyM

07-01-2008, 03:45 AM

I think you are all right about your feelings but I personally feel everything went bad about 15 years ago when a mother was arrested for trying to discipline her son in the grocery store. He would not stop picking on his sister and after many warnings she slapped him. A shopper seen this and called the police. The child was around 11 or 12. She was arrested for child abuse. That is ridiculous. One slap after 10 warnings. My father, rest his soul, would still be in jail if that was the yardstick in my generation. I was beat just for looking at him wrong. Children now have the right to divorce their parents. The judges and legal system are greatly to blame. IMHO.......

Mikitv

07-02-2008, 12:34 AM

I worked when my children were growing up. Sometimes it was full time and sometimes part time. We always found time to give our children quality time and values. They grew up knowing that they had choices and they would have to live with those consequences. They were disciplined but hardly ever because they knew what was expected of them. We tried to be good role models and give them rules to live by. It is not the quantity of time but the quality of time spent with your family. I find today that parents let the children make the rules and they give into them because it is easier. There does seem to be a lack of responsibility and respect today in our world. I am lucky that I was able to work and had good sitters and schools for my children.

renielarson

07-02-2008, 02:01 AM

I'm going to try not to make any recommendations, suggestions, or points of view (Well, guess I do, but I really tried hard not to.). As a 3rd grade teacher I just want to give my opinions from teaching children since 1971.

1. Nowadays, there is a definite lack of respect. Children talk back, interrupt, debate, and argue with peers and adults with no second thoughts.

2. There are no fear of consequences. Parents are too afraid to discipline their children for fear of abuse charges and schools cannot legally discipline beyond "talking" and trying to "reason."

3. Television and video games have replaced board games and reading resulting in children not developing creativity and imagination. The fast action kids are used to has negative effects on their concentration. This is due, in part, to parents who need to work in order to provide for the family and not have the energy, patience, nor time to nurture their children for their betterment. Furthermore, with more one parent families, lack of time, energy, and patience is more common nowadays. I'm not saying that one parent families are bad, just that there not as much time to devote to children because of commitments and time restraints..

4. Parents accuse authority and/or schools of being the "bad guys." Children are not held accountable! Parents make excuses for their children's behavior and/or performance...being it legal or academic. This results in children not being held responsible for their actions or their achievement. If a child is not meeting expectations, parents put the blame on the law/school/teacher. There are social/curriculum objectives to be met and yet the child is rarely held accountable. If the child breaks the law, there seems to be always an excuse given by the parent/s. And even when schools or law enforcement agencies provide additional resources, interventions, one on one interactions, it is still "our" fault if the child is not performing as acceptable or on grade level or not meeting expectations. Parents do not accept the fact that perhaps their child is not following the law, putting forth effort, staying on task, or is learning disabled.

Ok...enough for now yet I have more opinions.

nONIE

07-02-2008, 02:45 AM

Bright, I am not a teacher but I am so in agreement with all of your points.

There is something to be said for the old biblical adage,"spare the rod, and spoil the child" Im not a believer in hitting necessarily, but I dont think
A little good old fashioned fear and respect ever hurt any of us in our childhood days.

redwitch

07-02-2008, 03:00 AM

I think one thing that has truly hurt our children and grandchildren is the desire to be friends with the child. I always felt my daughter had friends. She needed me to be her mother. It was up to me to discipline her, be a good role model, teach her the values I felt were important. I couldn't do this if I was her buddy.

I watched many of the parents of her peers be so busy being friends to their children, their children had nowhere to turn when they needed guidance -- the school staff was too busy, overcrowded; teachers are afraid to spend one-on-one time with a student because of false accusations; church was given lip service, so religious leaders were not turned to. Kids turn to their friends and compare notes and decide that way what should or should not be done.

So, this, to me, is a large problem with today's generation. Of course, that doesn't explain why so many of our generation has tossed ethics and morals out the window. I was raised in the 50s. My foundation was based on honesty, trust, responsibility. That didn't change because I was in my teens and 20s in the 60s and 70s. It does seem the greed factor has become the rule of the day -- I've got mine and it doesn't matter how I got it.

Think how many of our politicians have been accused (and frequently convicted) of insider trading, fraud, etc. Athletes win by cheating and are lauded as heroes. Entertainers are in and out of rehab centers. So long as we admire those who cheat and lie and steal to get ahead, we, as a society, lose.

renielarson

07-02-2008, 03:12 AM

I feel parents should provide a window for their children to feel "safe" when needing to talk. However, I feel the parent's role should not be as a "friend". That is reserved for peers.

redwitch

07-02-2008, 03:32 AM

Totally agree, Bright. My daughter knew she could come to me with anything and I would happily discuss it without judgment (even if I was cringing inside). It was kind of like if you or your friends have been drinking or using drugs, call me and I'll come get you. We can discuss it when I have cooled down and you have straightened up. I didn't need to be her friend to listen to her or to go get her. I needed to be her mother.

Russ_Boston

07-02-2008, 01:14 PM

I'm in agreement with many of thoughts expressed. But let's remember that it is not just a generational thing. As RED says many of today's politicians and leaders who have been accused of financial mistakes etc. are from the previous generations. They are already in their 50's, 60's, 70's. So the point I'm making is that they were taught by the same teachers, parents etc. that we were. How you turn out in life isn't always about how you were raised. There are bad apples in every generation. I do see a declining lack of discipline (physical and otherwise) with our kids but this has probably been declining for hundreds of years yet we've been able to prosper as a country.

Quick story:

When I coached soccer for 10 years or so I was always given the B team all stars. Every year my last pick was a 'good' kid who had good parents, always said 'yes sir' and the like. He was the first to arrive for practice and the last to leave. Wasn't the star player and probably didn't deserve to be on any travel all star team (A, B or C) yet I picked him because of his drive, spirit and teamwork.

Two days ago he was arrested for intent to distribute drugs in a school zone among many other charges. I found out that this is his third strike. He is 21 years old! The minimum sentence for the crime is 10 years.

I've seen this type of thing way too often - You can NEVER tell how someone will turn out by judging the parenting techniques of his/her parents or how polite the child is. You can only do the best that you can do.

redwitch

07-02-2008, 05:41 PM

To put things in some perspective, think of this quote:

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."

Sadly, I can't find the complete text but it was said by Socrates, the Greek philosopher (469 BC - 399 BC). If the Greeks had these complaints about their children and teens, something tells me our complaints about ethics, morals, etc. are just as ancient and ongoing.

billethkid

07-02-2008, 07:05 PM

It is all a function of our evolution toward permissive pacifism, political correctness, special interest group catering, the abandoning of the majority rules, complete lack of involvement in the defining of right or wrong and right VS wrong and by all means thou shalt not offend anybody, eh.

We are in a constant state of watering our core values down to a point where, anything goes.

Lower standards in schools. Lower standards in the military....they can't even deal with the bad actors anymore. Even with the lower standards look at the terrible graduation percentage decline across the US.

What previous generations had going for them was they were able to discipline for the violation of what was right. That concept is gone!!!!!

And the saddest fact of all.....the majority would prefer to have better values.

No mystery what the problem is.

BTK

maxine8

07-02-2008, 07:07 PM

Eventhough I agree with all the posters and their point of views! I did not see anyone mention the dramatically effects due to rapid advances in science and technology. Science and Technology effecting how family act and see things! Affecting adults as well as children.

Also, how today�s communication is mostly carried out via email, SMS or instant messengers. Not to mention how information is kept in an encrypted directory, safely stored in a password-protected USB key or a CD-RW. Also, the America's growing obsession with the media.

Where/when did we ever see people share information, find knowledge, write how they feel... comment on anything... at times aggressively and without respect... with just the hit of a key.... ENTER! Not to mention if they really cared to think for a moment there was a person on the other side of a screen. We speak/write out exactly what we want/feel..... Don't you think children, young adults are doing the same thing? This is the power of the INTERNET! It teaches us to have an outburst of attitudes we never had before...

Please see Karl Fisch�s �Shift Happens� Presentation (May, 2007). This presentation is amazing.... technology is expanding like we can't even imagine.

http://clifmims.com/blog/archives/38

These are just few of the things I believe has led to a decline in morals and values. It has caused children to have more control over anything and behave differently. Nowadays, there is no need to become invisible! For example, like A girl doesn't have to have diary hidden in her bedroom, she instead carries her PALM PILOT with her at all times.

I was raised in a very strict home, mom and dad took us to church every Sunday, we all had to sit together at the dinner table and had to ask if we could play outside! Pretty and simple. On the other hand, things have changed since then and life is not simple.... Parents have 2/3 jobs, work more to support the family� Family gatherings are a thing of the past, no time� Parents/Grandparents move away to find better quality life� People travel more, see less of each other. Also spiritual believes and ethics have changed tremendously. Life have become more complicated and complex.

So, I ask... How can we expect so much from our kids if parents/adults are not being the best role models for their/our children?

Russ_Boston

07-03-2008, 01:35 PM

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates, the Greek philosopher (469 BC - 399 BC).

Red - I'm glad you found this quote. There are literally hundreds of others thoughout the ages that show that basic issues, like raising children, aren't simple issues and no one has a real handle on the best way to do it. I think it is just human nature to say that 'we' did it better in our day. All we can do is the best we can do.

billethkid

07-03-2008, 01:49 PM

Yes best we can is a fair statement, HOWEVER, the issue is the values have so drastically changed that even with the best one can.....today's permissive, more tolerance for wrong doing, less discipline (not just children...military included), special interest preferential treatment, less respect etc.......the outcome is significantly different......

And in my opinion a less desirable result than the "good ol' days"...(plug in the year that fits ya!).

BTK

graciegirl

07-03-2008, 01:53 PM

I think a very simple direction to parents of babies is;

Sit down and think what your values are. List the most important ten values to yourself and then TEACH THEM TO YOUR CHILDREN.

Rokinronda

07-03-2008, 02:05 PM

Gracie, reminds me of a most beautiful song, sang by Whitney Houston.

I believe that children ARE our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe that children ARE our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

And if by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love
written By Chantique Brown

maxine8

07-03-2008, 02:36 PM

graciegirl - I agree with you a 100%! ... and hope they never give up reinforcing those values as time passes ON...

rokinronda - THK U so very much for inspiring me this morning! You must click on the link below.... Whitney Houston has an amazing voice and you must hear her sing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPyzKNLBe_8

nONIE

07-03-2008, 02:38 PM

Ronda, Beautiful song, thanks for printing the words. :bigthumbsup:

I have thought about todays kids and their behavior. This may be a ridiculous theory but could evolution have something to do with it? Children today seem to be born smarter. They are doing things at a much younger age then we did and they seem to be free thinkers at a very young age with firm opinions of their own. In fact, some of the things they do and say postively shock me. Are we infact evolving into much more intelligent beings with every generation ,or is it just the exposure to so much more then we were that makes them seem that way?

Of course intelligence is not an excuse for precocious behavior or lack of respect!

barbjim

07-03-2008, 02:53 PM

This may sound like a small thing. But I think when they did away with the Sunday Blue Laws and opened everything up on Sunday we got away from the "Family Gatherings". I remember, even though my parents worked, Sunday was a family day.
It was a day to visit other family members, go to church, play outside, go to the beach, etc. No matter what it was, you did it with the family. You can learn a great deal from grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends. Everyone was quick to encourage a child to behave, correct them when they did wrong. Tell them the reason and give them those values.
Now the family has to work. I think there was a reason for a "day of rest".

grandma-annie

07-03-2008, 09:37 PM

I agree with Bright.... as a retired teacher and a mother of three.... I often saw parents enabling their child, and trying to take away those opportunities to make mistakes and learn from them, and to take the responsibility for their mistakes. The parents believed that this was the way to show their love. The student quickly learned how to play this to their advantage. It was an easy way for the parent to be a pal to their kid, but it catches up on down the path... Rollerblader Ann

gfmucci

07-24-2008, 02:13 AM

I don't mean to pick on gfmucci but it got me thinking about values in our country.

I know of many young people who live a very moral and decent life and participate in society in many beneficial ways.

There are exceptions to every mega-trend. Anecdotal experiences don't necessarily accurately reflect a broader social shift. I'm sure there are some very nice members of the mafia...and some mighty fine radical Muslims who would make great neighbors.

travelstiles

07-24-2008, 03:27 AM

When we were kids we truly believed that only "millionaires" had cleaning ladies, gardeners, sent clothing to the tailor for alterations or shirts out to be cleaned and pressed, ate out regularly, and had manicures. And no one we knew took vacations that involved more than going to a family resort that you could get to by car (and it was a major goal to save for that family car). You met the same kids there every year, and kept them as pen pals.
Think what people could save by having the entire family do the chores that many people pay for these days (yes, including the kids). And why do vacations have to be exotic destinations with "kids programs?" If you're working 2 jobs to afford an SUV, cleaning lady, gardener, etc., why would you pay for an expensive vacation then put the kids into a camp so you can "relax?"
My how times have changed!

chelsea24

07-24-2008, 03:28 AM

Mucci, what are you talking about now, you little woofer! :joke:

I think human beings have always been and will always be the same. It's just out there more. We hear about it more. Television and the Internet brings everything and everyone into our homes. There's always been a wave and ebb of morality. Human nature is universally the same. Remember before the "Leave it to Beaver" Fifties, there was the raucous roaring 20's. The cycle of humankind just keeps turning.

Sidney Lanier

07-24-2008, 04:18 AM

I couldn't agree more with Chelsea. People are the same and there's nothing new, though today's rapid technology gets us to see the 'nothing new' faster and more instantaneously so things are more out in the open. We can point to the differences in behaviors of children today versus a few decades ago (when we were children), and this is real, but how different is the greater world around us as we relate to it? We have one good friend who says that the only good thing about the good old days is that they're gone. I think we need to be mindful, as we criticize what we see as deterioration between then and now, is to not overlook other differences that are improvements (using the Jim Crow laws mentioned earlier as an example--and there are lots more examples).

graciegirl

07-24-2008, 10:49 AM

graciegirl

07-24-2008, 10:51 AM

gfmucci

07-25-2008, 03:39 AM

Mucci, what are you talking about now, you little woofer! * :joke:

I think human beings have always been and will always be the same. *It's just out there more. *We hear about it more. *

Not so.* History teaches that societies have their economic, military, and moral "ups and downs" mega-trends.* Societies don't always stay the same.* There are continuing cycles of prosperity, extravagance, excessive pride, complacency, decline, struggle, humility, and resurgence.* Various religions have various names for these phenomena.* One calls it "the pride cycle."* We are in a moral decline.* Liberals appear to relish it, deny it, or tolerate it more than conservatives do. Economic and military decline will follow over the coming decades.

Regards, Pessamucci.

Russ_Boston

07-25-2008, 12:28 PM

Yes there are cycles throughout history. All empires fall at some point and regrettably we will probably follow suit. There are many good books on the subject.

I just don't find the moral decline as obvious as some on this board. Just because we said 'yes sir' and 'no thank you' more during the 50's and 60's doesn't mean we were more moral. As i mentioned you only need to look at how we treated others (blacks, American Indians, etc.) or how women were not considered equals in the business world (etc.) to know that perhaps the 'morality' was only superficial. But if that is what you mean by moral then I agree with you, maybe we were more kind on the surface.

Respectfully - Russ

redwitch

07-25-2008, 01:03 PM

To me, it isn't the politeness. It is the fact that I remember the day when a handshake was all that was needed. Heck, you didn't even need the handshake, if you said you were doing something, it was considered done because it would be. Now, even a signed contract is just a way to get out of doing something. There are enough backout clauses to choke a horse. Our kids are taught that they aren't to blame for the broken window -- the Louisville Slugger was just made wrong and gave you too much power so the ball went through the window; the homework was too hard or too long and that's the teacher's fault. Worse yet, after the excuses are made for the child, the parent works hard to get their kid out of trouble -- sues the manufacturer, demands that the teacher make the homework easier, shorter or raise the grade for the slipshod work that was turned in.

Friends will plan to meet and then cancel because something better came along. Marriages break up because one half has gotten older and something newer has come along or one is bored. Competitors will go out of their way to steal another's customers. Businesspeople will come as close to possible to skirting the law as possible or even flat out break the law and just assume they won't be caught or get off with a slap of the wrist if they are (sadly, they're usually right, too).

From what I have seen, morals and values have declined. Not just for the younger generation but for ours and our parents. I've actually be called old-fashioned because if I say I am going to do something, I do it if at all humanly possible. When I do a job, I do the absolute best I can. And if I don't do it right, I do it again. My word is my bond -- it is for my child, my friends, my neighbors, strangers. I know there are others like me, I've met them. But, lately, I've met more that take the moral shortcuts than otherwise. It saddens me.

samhass

07-25-2008, 02:56 PM

Red, I hear what you're saying, but before you go getting all holier than thou, didn't you do the equivalent of a dwarf toss in another thread? ;) ;) ;) 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl
You see, none of are perfect, try as we may. We can only hope that we've been good enough that we pass our exams on Judgement Day.

redwitch

07-26-2008, 01:59 PM

roflao ... Me? Holier than thou? Oh, heck no! I know my imperfections all too well. But I do keep my word and I don't understand the saying of one thing and doing another. Just not my style and it does sadden me when others think their word is worthless.

And it was not a dwarf toss. It was more of a "Snow" job. :joke:

Blondie

07-26-2008, 06:02 PM

As I have said before, I believe that thoughtful people can disagree. I think everyone has expressed good points, and we all speak from from the heart based on our own background.

Red, my experience leads me to believe what you have expressed to be true. I think things/people have evolved/changed, some for the better and some for the worse. One thing my experience has shown me is that, many folks (kids and adults) accept little responsibility for their behavior. We have evolved to a point that we must put a label everything. ADHD, PTSD, OCD, ASD, MDD, SAD, PPD, PDD, LD, MR......on and on and on. Please don't think I a saying that these things don't exist, I know they do and some are very debilitating; however, everytime someone makes a mistake, breaks the law, or fails in school is not because they have a disorder.

I believe that we may have allowed reasons to become excuses far too often.
IMHO

PS....I also believe in the words of Mother Teresa...."People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered. Love them anyway."

md blondie

nONIE

07-26-2008, 06:30 PM

PS....I also believe in the words of Mother Teresa...."People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered. Love them anyway."

md blondie
[/quote]

Blondie, thankyou for the beautiful quote, so difficult to do but so worth the effort!

gfmucci

07-30-2008, 03:47 AM

What is a "dwarf toss?"

By the way, part of the basis for my opinion is from several Human Resource professionals who have experienced a marked decline in the work ethic of the under 30 folk...college graduates who, for the most part, expect to be president of the company they apply for without earning it...expecting the silver platter with impatience.* Another part of the basis for my opinion is our culture's obsession with entertaining itself, whether through TV, movies, video games, sports, or Hollywood obsessions.* Considering all venues, I don't think this nation has ever spent so much time not working at some productive pursuit.* That will certainly catch up with us.* Our competition (China among others) will leave us in the dust.

redwitch

07-30-2008, 04:06 AM

gf -- Dwarf toss was (is?) a horrible form of entertainment used in some bars -- whoever tosses a dwarf the farthest wins. They also use dwarfs for bowling.

BTW, folks, "dwarf" is a very specific body type of little people (larger head, barrel chest, bowed legs -- frequently have more skeletal illnesses than the average little person). Don't want to get beat up again for using the term (even though the first time around it was not necessarily accurate but needed for the joke to fit).

gfmucci

08-03-2008, 03:38 AM

The fact that what was considered "immoral" and relegated to the shadows 40 years ago is accepted "out in the open" today makes the point of our moral decline.* The fact that immorality is now "out in the open" and accepted does not make it OK.* (unless you are of the moral relativist or irrelevant persuasion.)

xNYer

08-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Women being allowed to work without harassment, attempts to eliminate discrimination against minorities, outright public hostility and aggression towards gays were all considered appropriate and acceptable in the 50's.

Are those indicative of a better value system and the disintegration of society caused by the events of the 60's?

redwitch

08-03-2008, 01:43 PM

I think the fact that what was considered "immoral" and relegated to the shadows 40 years ago is accepted "out in the open" today makes the point of our moral decline. The fact that immorality is now "out in the open" and accepted does not make it OK. (unless you are of the moral relativist or irrelevant persuasion.)

I guess it depends what you consider immoral. Bigotry (against blacks, Hispanics, basically any minority and gays) is immoral today, was accepted 40 years ago. Equal rights was non-existent 40 years ago. To me, the lynchings, beatings, Jim Crow laws were completely immoral. What people do in their bedrooms or other places in their homes is their business. So long as another person isn't unvoluntarily harmed, it is not immoral to me. It may not be what I would want to do, but, then, I there's a lot of things I don't want to do that others do. Child pornography is immoral and considered more so today than it was 40 years ago.

If the willingness to accept others as they are, to let others alone because of their sexual preference or practices is moral decline, then I say we need more of it. Accepting others as they are is not immoral, judging them for being different is (and that includes race, religion, creed, sexual preference) IMO.

graciegirl

08-03-2008, 01:53 PM

I guess it depends what you consider immoral. Bigotry (against blacks, Hispanics, basically any minority and gays) is immoral today, was accepted 40 years ago. Equal rights was non-existent 40 years ago. To me, the lynchings, beatings, Jim Crow laws were completely immoral. What people do in their bedrooms or other places in their homes is their business. So long as another person isn't unvoluntarily harmed, it is not immoral to me. It may not be what I would want to do, but, then, I there's a lot of things I don't want to do that others do. Child pornography is immoral and considered more so today than it was 40 years ago.

If the willingness to accept others as they are, to let others alone because of their sexual preference or practices is moral decline, then I say we need more of it. Accepting others as they are is not immoral, judging them for being different is (and that includes race, religion, creed, sexual preference) IMO.

I absolutely agree Red. Another thing that I think is that a person is born gay or heterosexual. I don't think they can be changed. A lot of people do think it is a choice.

travelstiles

08-03-2008, 01:55 PM

Whether it's genetic or choice, what's the difference? Live and let live.

samhass

08-03-2008, 02:07 PM

Well said, Red and xNYer. While I think there has been a marked decline in general civility, I think we have made great strides in accepting one another regardless of race, religious belief, or sexual orientation. Like Gracie, I don't think people have a choice about being homosexual. I believe they are born that way. Think about it, if it was a choice, why would you ever choose to be gay and suffer the treatment many gays receive? You wouldn't. Your gay/lesbian friend may be the best friend you will ever have. I know this is off topic but it wouldn't be the first time that had happened.

Russ_Boston

08-04-2008, 11:31 AM

I find it weird when I hear someone say that they have a problem with homosexuality. To me it is a complete non-issue. But I can understand from a gay person's standpoint that it is an issue when they are harassed or otherwise discriminated against. I cringe whenever I hear anything anti-gay.

You could replace the words gay or homosexuality in the previous paragraph with race or ethnicity or gender and I would feel the same.

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

Boomer

08-04-2008, 11:52 AM

Born.

Boomer of Few Words

livsea2

08-04-2008, 09:04 PM

When I was a youngster of about 11 or 12 a neighbor, Mr. Durning walked up to me and smacked me in the back of the head. Pretty hard too, and said "if I ever hear you say that word again, I'll give you double!". I had uttered a foul word on the basketball court and oops he heard it. What's the chances that would happen today? ZERO! Parents don't discipline their own children today let alone friends and neighbors children. It takes a village? There are no villages any longer! ( well there is a village but no children there but I digress) My point of course is that we as a society are not doing our job, everyone has a responsibility with regard to values. But hey I want to move to the villages so I guess I too am shirking my responsibilities by " running away" from children!?! ???

gfmucci

08-05-2008, 07:32 PM

Great point about discipline, manners, etc. :agree: When we speak of "values" everyone has a different definition. It's a broad term. Respect, discipline, manners, work ethic, self-reliance, traditional sexual morality...these are the specifics of "values" I have been referring to.
BTW, we were surprised by the number of children (and grandchildren) here, especially in the squares.

SABRMnLgs

08-13-2008, 10:06 PM

What I notice is a slide toward mediocrity. I don't want to say, "In my day" so I won't but let me present an analogy here. In days gone by kids playing ball were either good enough or not good enough to play. If you were not that good, guess what ...you didn't play. That made you work harder and longer. The end prize being you got to play finally. As we slide toward mediocrity, everybody has to play or we make up some "T-Ball League" with no outs, metal bats, et al. Now everyone is equal.
Wait a minute!!!! Other side of the coin. I've worked my butt off practicing long and hard and am very good at playing ball. Now some other kid who plays only half as good as I do and is to lazy to get any better, gets to play in my place? What's the advantage in working and practicing if others, who don't are playing when I should be? I might as well not work hard or practice hard if others, who are not as good are in my place. I might as well side toward mediocrity since I am no longer rewarded for my long and hard work practicing.
Moral ..... one is sliding his way down while others are pushing another up. So we can be "equal".
A couple other things .............................. Turn off your damn cell phones in a restaurant and take off you hat when you enter a building or sit down at a table for a meal. Geeeeez. Decline of values AND etiquette!
Jerry Jackson (Calumet Grove)