7,000 animals?

[jimbo2012]

The average meat eating person eats 7,000 animals in their life time.

or 70 billion a year are killed for food

The number is staggering, but that's where YOU come in.

Choose vegetarian/vegan and help bring this number down

https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/p960x960/11079503_10153090351516508_1512788758567357569_o.j pg

[graciegirl]

I am very fond of you Jimbo. Just eat what is on your plate and don't pay any attention to your sisters and brothers plates. Be grateful there is food and don't start something. We are all tender hearted enough.

[shcisamax]

What I found astounding is the amount of water it takes to bring an animal to slaughter. According to the article below, we need to seriously consider our future use of limited resources required to support meat production. Very interesting read.

Meat’s large water footprint: why raising livestock and poultry for meat is so resource-intensive | FoodTank.com (http://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-resources)

[fred53]

The earth is 70 percent water...give or take...

[Bay Kid]

Cows, chickens and sheep eat corn, grass, etc. So I must be a vegetarian?

[TNLAKEPANDA]

If you eat a vegetarian are you still a meat eater?

[Arctic Fox]

The earth is 70 percent water...give or take...

Around 70% of the surface is covered with water, but that's not the same as its composition

Just 2.5% of the Earth's water is fresh, and two thirds of that is locked up in glaciers and ice caps.

[shcisamax]

The earth may be 70% but 97% of that water is salt. They have already built a $1 billion plant in southern california to desalinate and are charging the population $5 a month for their water.
It isn't going to affect us but as the saying goes: The world is not given by his fathers, but borrowed from his children.

[dewilson58]

Eat more pickles.





(Hey, that's three words............I'm going to the other thread!!)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

For thousands of years man has been eating animals. In the Bible, God instructs people to kill and burn animals. All of the people in the Bible ate animals including Jesus. Why, all of a sudden in the past 60 years or so, are we supposed to change this? I believe that God put animals on this earth to nourish his people.

[TheVillageChicken]

"If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did He make them out of meat?"

Homer Simpson

We need to get the word out to the cats. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/29/cats-wild-birds-mammals-study/1873871/)

[jimbo2012]

Why, all of a sudden in the past 60 years or so, are we supposed to change this? I believe that God put animals on this earth to nourish his people.

Simple statistics show that there is a direct link to disease and death not only from meat but the way they are treated with drugs for starters.

We now know a meat-heavy diet contains the equivalent of 2 1/2 pounds of saturated fat a week!

Fact!
World War II provided a graphic example of how the ravages of these diseases could be totally halted. Norway was one of several western European nations occupied by Nazi Germany during the conflict between 1939 through 1945. The Germans removed all animal livestock from these occupied countries. The native population subsisted on whole grains, legumes, vegetables and fruit. Almost immediately death from heart attacks and strokes in Norway plummeted. With the cessation of hostilities in 1945 animal products became available as well as an immediate return to the prewar levels of deaths from these illnesses.

your second comment "God put animals on this earth to nourish his people"

I think he also put plants ie vegetables on earth also to nourish his people, but it is up to to you to choose which to be nourished by.

It was never in his plan to factory raise, torture and abuse these living creatures.

.

[tuccillo]

There is some compelling research that indicates that a plant based diet can have a significant impact on reducing heart disease and cancer. While we do fall off the wagon occasionally, my wife has pretty much switched us over to a vegetarian diet. One of my favorites is a "tuna salad" made from garbanzo beans.

One way to think about this is your life expectancy without civilization would be much shorter. So short, on average, that diseases such as heart blockages and cancer never develop in the average person. People are living much longer because of modern medicine - viruses, infections from wounds, and broken bones are no longer fatal, as well as dramatically decreased infant mortality. People are living so long that heart disease and cancer now have a chance to develop. A plant based diet appears to be an effective way to combat those diseases as you age. Prevention is always better than treatment.

For thousands of years man has been eating animals. In the Bible, God instructs people to kill and burn animals. All of the people in the Bible ate animals including Jesus. Why, all of a sudden in the past 60 years or so, are we supposed to change this? I believe that God put animals on this earth to nourish his people.

[graciegirl]

I appreciate your kind thoughts as I appreciate prayers. I try not to what is that word that starts with P???????..prosellalize or something like that. Live and let live and wish for good things for others. Here it is; http://www.audioenglish.org/dictionary/proselytize.htm

You can't teach many old dogs new tricks. Care for a carrot?

[shcisamax]

In the Bible, God instructs people to kill and burn animals. All of the people in the Bible ate animals including Jesus.
Not to be contrary but I believe stoning was advised in the bible as well but we have outgrown that thinking. It also said pork was prohibited but I doubt many follow that either.

We should just use our heads and make considered choices and not just thinking how yummy that tastes. Although, I will be really upset if dark chocolate starts getting bad press.

[TheVillageChicken]

If you count shrimp and oysters as fish, I am well ahead of the 4700 fish lifetime average. When I was in college, I ate three goldfish, but I ain't counting them as food.

[jimbo2012]

Dark chocolate is good....


Humans are naturally plant-eaters

humans are optimized for eating mostly or exclusively plant foods, according to the best evidence: our bodies. We're most similar to other plant-eaters, and drastically different from carnivores and true omnivores.1,2,3 Those who insist that humans are omnivores, especially if their argument is based on canine teeth, would do well to look at what the evidence actually shows.

see here for more (http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html) on this point

[rubicon]

Why is it that people who are primarily vegans obsess over other people's menu selections? Why don't they just live and let live? Why do they believe it is their religious duty to convert meatatarians

Why is it now that medical experts reversed their thinking concerning saturated fats, meat butter, etc, salt levels, coffee...............? leading to the latest the refrain of "a steak a day keeps the doctor away"?

Why is it that vegans never talk about the fact that meat is a very important source of nutrition and consumption of a little goes a longer way than a vegan diet and is especially essential to older people whose rate of absorption is compromised as they age?

What meat is the most consumed in the world? Goat meat and that has not even been mentioned in this thread.

Seniors biggest challenge is ensuring they are geting proper nutrition (period)

[KayakerNC]

Why is it that people who are primarily vegans obsess over other people's menu selections? Why don't they just live and let live? Why do they believe it is their religious duty to convert meatatarians

Why is it now that medical experts reversed their thinking concerning saturated fats, meat butter, etc, salt levels, coffee...............? leading to the latest the refrain of "a steak a day keeps the doctor away"?

Why is it that vegans never talk about the fact that meat is a very important source of nutrition and consumption of a little goes a longer way than a vegan diet and is especially essential to older people whose rate of absorption is compromised as they age?

What meat is the most consumed in the world? Goat meat and that has not even been mentioned in this thread.

Seniors biggest challenge is ensuring they are geting proper nutrition (period)
:agree: Well said.

[jimbo2012]

Why is it that people who are primarily vegans obsess over other people's menu selections?

Who's obsessing, shoot the messenger he's a vegan. I post, your choice to read.

Why is it that vegans never talk about the fact that meat is a very important source of nutrition and consumption of a little goes a longer way than a vegan diet and is especially essential to older people whose rate of absorption is compromised as they age?

Meat is not an important source. Where the heck did you get that from?

And goes a longer way????
what goes a longer way?

older people whose rate of absorption is compromised as they age?

Interesting meat is harder to digest than any vegetable

[TheVillageChicken]

If we were designed to eat only plant based food, pregnant vegans would not need to take protein, calcium, iron, folic acid, and vitamin B12 supplements in order to have a healthy baby.

[Shimpy]

One way to think about this is your life expectancy without civilization would be much shorter. So short, on average, that diseases such as heart blockages and cancer never develop in the average person. People are living much longer because of modern medicine - viruses, infections from wounds, and broken bones are no longer fatal, as well as dramatically decreased infant mortality. People are living so long that heart disease and cancer now have a chance to develop.

This is true. We weren't designed to live this long so the human body wasn't designed to last this long. This is why knee and hip replacements are very common. Our joints just weren't designed to last twice what our life expectancy was.
Interesting to think about but since medicine has keep us alive so much longer than nature intended, then why did nature give us a brain good enough to develop advanced medicine to keep us alive this long?

[jimbo2012]

If we were designed to eat only plant based food, pregnant vegans would not need to take protein, calcium, iron, folic acid, and vitamin B12 supplements in order to have a healthy baby.

That's correct except for B12, what's your point?

[regas56]

There's room on this planet for ALL Gods animals.. Right alongside of my mash taters..

[TheVillageChicken]

That's correct except for B12, what's your point?

My point is that your assertion that we are designed to be only plant eaters was naively conceived and incorrect.

[Arctic Fox]

humans are optimized for eating mostly or exclusively plant foods, according to the best evidence

the reason humans have large brains is because our distant ancestors ate cooked meat, which provided much more energy than plants or uncooked meat - and the brain uses a lot of energy

while it would clearly take thousands of generations for the brains of modern humans' on a vegan diet to shrink noticeably, I'm glad our forbears stuck with eating meat

maybe those Neanderthals liked veggie-burgers?

[Polar Bear]

...Meat is not an important source...

You're kidding, right?!?

I was trying to read what you said with an open mind. But with that statement, all credibility just went bye-bye.

[jimbo2012]

the reason humans have large brains is because our distant ancestors ate cooked meat, which provided much more energy than plants or uncooked meat - and the brain uses a lot of energy

while it would clearly take thousands of generations for the brains of modern humans' on a vegan diet to shrink noticeably, I'm glad our forbears stuck with eating meat

maybe those Neanderthals liked veggie-burgers?

Old myth, look at primates, do they have large brains?
they never eat meat.

If you think meat has more energy you are mis taken on that point as well certain plants have more protein than steak

[jimbo2012]

You're kidding, right?!?

I was trying to read what you said with an open mind. But with that statement, all credibility just went bye-bye.

Not kidding at all, it is not needed in our diet at all.

Vegetarians and vegans have longer lifespans by 10 & 15 years respectfully.

We haven't had red meat in over 20 years, no other types in over 5 years.

We take no meds. When we go the Village heath care we are told by our Dr we are the only patients out of his almost 1200 that have no scripts for meds

It's not the sunshine!

[TheVillageChicken]

Not kidding at all, it is not needed in our diet at all.

Vegetarians and vegans have longer lifespans by 10 & 15 years respectfully.

We haven't had red meat in over 20 years, no other types in over 5 years.

We take no meds. When we go the Village heath care we are told by our Dr we are the only patients out of his almost 1200 that have no scripts for meds

It's not the sunshine!

I have eaten red meat all my life and at 70, have zero prescriptions, and all my indicators are excellent, but unlike you, I realize that anecdotes don't advance argument. You know, the sad thing about cultural stereotypes is that they are better than 80% accurate, and the one about arrogant vegans is no different.

[Polar Bear]

...Vegetarians and vegans have longer lifespans by 10 & 15 years respectfully...

Longer than what?

Again, if you had credibility it might mean something to me. (Read TVC below.)

[jimbo2012]

I have eaten red meat all my life and at 70,

Good for you, so you must be getting near that 7,000 killed animal number

[Arctic Fox]

Old myth, look at primates, do they have large brains? they never eat meat.

Which primates do you think are as intelligent as humans?

(I assume that you are referring to gorillas etc. rather than certain bishops)

[Kannon451]

Good for you, so you must be getting near that 7,000 killed animal number

Diehard vegans/vegetarians cannot accept the live and let live philosophy. They believe their life style choice is the only one and have zero tolerance for others. As seen in this message, when confronted with different views, they attempt to make others feel guilty and embarrassed.
I think the, there is room for all gods creatures....next to my mashed potatoes comment is the best possibly response to these fanatics.

[tuccillo]

With a better diet, many people might not need the advanced medicines that have been developed to treat symptoms. For example, statins are widely prescribed. There is a fundamental difference between drugs such as antibotics which treat a one time infection vs. statins which attempt to treat symptoms and must be taken for the rest of your life and have side effects. The evidence would suggest that a plant based diet will prevent a number of problems. Take a look at plant based diets. I agree they don't taste as good ;-)

This is true. We weren't designed to live this long so the human body wasn't designed to last this long. This is why knee and hip replacements are very common. Our joints just weren't designed to last twice what our life expectancy was.
Interesting to think about but since medicine has keep us alive so much longer than nature intended, then why did nature give us a brain good enough to develop advanced medicine to keep us alive this long?

[TheVillageChicken]

Good for you, so you must be getting near that 7,000 killed animal number

A fact that evokes no emotion in me whatsoever.
Do you realize that vegan farts are destroying the ozone layer. Following your lead, I present this as fact without evidence.

[sunnyatlast]

A fact that evokes no emotion in me whatsoever.
Do you realize that vegan farts are destroying the ozone layer. Following your lead, I present this as fact without evidence.

:MOJE_whot: :BigApplause: :coolsmiley: :pepper2:

:pepper2: :coolsmiley: :BigApplause: :MOJE_whot:

[CFrance]

I bet this thread will be closed by morning! It has a familiar ring.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What I found astounding is the amount of water it takes to bring an animal to slaughter. According to the article below, we need to seriously consider our future use of limited resources required to support meat production. Very interesting read.

Meat’s large water footprint: why raising livestock and poultry for meat is so resource-intensive | FoodTank.com (http://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-resources)

To what limited resource are you referring?

[Polar Bear]

Good for you, so you must be getting near that 7,000 killed animal number
A fact that evokes no emotion in me whatsoever.
Do you realize that vegan farts are destroying the ozone layer. Following your lead, I present this as fact without evidence.
:MOJE_whot: :BigApplause: :coolsmiley: :pepper2:

:pepper2: :coolsmiley: :BigApplause: :MOJE_whot:
No further comment required.

[rubicon]

A recent article in Wall Street Journal featured a history on the cultivating of chickens. Earlier man used chickens mainly as sacriface. However the article credited two woman from North Carolina as discovering the remarkable overall low cost of mass production in the early 1900's and then men caught on and the industry flourished.

A factoid that caught my eye was that chicken consumption was more than the cow, pig and sheep consumption combined. Again goat meat is the most consumed meat in the world. Hence creating the phrase "taste like chicken":mmmm:

[queasy27]

Aren't plants also living things? The Secret Life of Plants was published in 1973 and the theories of plant perception aren't new.

Are some animals more worthy of concern and protection than others? Is it okay to kill a cockroach? A snake? A rat?

[graciegirl]

Aren't plants also living things? The Secret Life of Plants was published in 1973 and the theories of plant perception aren't new.

Are some animals more worthy of concern and protection than others? Is it okay to kill a cockroach? A snake? A rat?

How do we get into these discussions? They sellin' tie die and head bands again?

[cbg150]

I have recently concluded myself that a plant-based diet is the best for me and for the planet. This is a personal decision and I appreciate Jimbo sharing his feelings about how he came to that decision. A really helpful discussion would be how we can have more healthful choices in the Villages. A vegetarian and an Indian restaurant would be nice. So would a Whole Foods. Short of that, more vegan (dairy free vegetarian choices) on every restaurant's menu would be helpful. I was excited to go to Orange Blossom yesterday because I heard they had a page of vegetarian choices on their menu, but unfortunately 95% of it was not vegan. In a community this large, surely we could accommodate more vegan options?

[jimbo2012]

I have recently concluded myself that a plant-based diet is the best for me and for the planet.

A really helpful discussion would be how we can have more healthful choices in the Villages. A vegetarian and an Indian restaurant would be nice.

Agree,
We go to Bamboo Bistro, Las Tappas, Thai Ruby, Japanese Steak house ( sounds crazy to go to a steak house but they have many dishes to choose from) they have several dishes or they will make anyway you like.

Sweet Tomato, you can also get several items from most restaurants that will work out. Moes by Target

Ruby Tuesdays, Cody's, Outback all can whip up several choices.

[Arctic Fox]

A vegetarian and an Indian restaurant would be nice.

Urban Curry in Spanish Springs was very nice, but short-lived as the demand for it was low. It tried changing to Urban Grill - offering more non-Indian dishes - but that just delayed the inevitable closing :-(

Fresh Market on 466 has a good selection of herbs, spices and whole foods.

[dplars]

I'm going for 10,000

[graciegirl]

I have recently concluded myself that a plant-based diet is the best for me and for the planet. This is a personal decision and I appreciate Jimbo sharing his feelings about how he came to that decision. A really helpful discussion would be how we can have more healthful choices in the Villages. A vegetarian and an Indian restaurant would be nice. So would a Whole Foods. Short of that, more vegan (dairy free vegetarian choices) on every restaurant's menu would be helpful. I was excited to go to Orange Blossom yesterday because I heard they had a page of vegetarian choices on their menu, but unfortunately 95% of it was not vegan. In a community this large, surely we could accommodate more vegan options?

You realize of course that if enough people were buying those sorts of things that businesses would sell them. Just because a small group want them or those people think they are more healthy and they think it is good for the planet do things just "happen." You have to have numbers of people to want them and would financially support them.

[rubicon]

I have never been one for fad diets especially when you are aware that 8 new ones appear every year but there is one diet that cause m to pause. A young girl, Brook, in my office often stopped me to explain the latest diet she was testing. On this day she caught my attention because for three weeks she would eat nothing but wine, cheese and bread Now that excites me....well until dinner when steak with mushrooms sautee in a butter wine sauce is served up with a side dish of pasta a glass of wine and oh yes a salad to fill my veggie requirement....a salad that is eaten last the European way

Bon appetit

[rubicon]

My birthday is on the horizon and I get to choose the menu I am planning on my wife making me chicken Kiev with rice and to fulfill my veggie requirement a medley of vegetables served with a white wine and of course my salad to be eaten the European way at the end of the meal :mmmm:

[2BNTV]

Sorry Jim, you are a good dude but there aren't enough statistics in the world, to convince me, to become a a vegan :D

I try to eat as little meat as possible but I can't give it up totally. :smiley:

[jimbo2012]

As of last year there were reported 16 million vegetarians in the US, half of those vegan.

So it's not everyone.

But the numbers are growing,
the point of my threads on this lifestyle (notice I didn't say diet) is simply to create awareness of options in food for your health.

[TheVillageChicken]

As of last year there were reported 16 million vegetarians in the US, half of those vegan.

So it's not everyone.

But the numbers are growing,
the point of my threads on this lifestyle (notice I didn't say diet) is simply to create awareness of options in food for your health.


And you thought a good way to start the dialogue was to try and put meat eaters on a guilt trip by reminding us how many animals we butcher? This thread has made me determined to become a more militant carnivore. As a matter of fact, I am joining PETA (https://www.facebook.com/pages/People-for-the-Edible-Termination-of-Animals-pEta/182869688461561?fref=ts)

[Arctic Fox]

I try to eat as little meat as possible but I can't give it up totally.

Giving meat up altogether is a hard sell when many of the benefits can be gained by cutting back on portion sizes, having no meat some days and replacing meat with fish.


The number of "killings" cited by Jimbo may well be an underestimate:

"The average meat eating person eats 7,000 animals in their life time or 70 billion a year are killed for food"

If the average meat-eater lives for 70 years, then 7,000 animals in a lifetime is 100 per year. Multiply that by the number of humans - 7 billion - and up to 700 billion animals per year would be killed. Even allowing for not everyone being a meat-eater, you would have to kill, say, 500 billion per year.

Of course, there's a big difference between killing a sardine and slaughtering a cow...

[jimbo2012]

And you thought a good way to start the dialogue was to try and put meat eaters on a guilt trip by reminding us how many animals we butcher? This thread has made me determined to become a more militant carnivore. As a matter of fact, I am joining PETA (https://www.facebook.com/pages/People-for-the-Edible-Termination-of-Animals-pEta/182869688461561?fref=ts)

they are looking for you chicken little, they have 12 likes, so only you and 11 others in the world. Don't worry in your case eat more meat the folks in ER will be waiting :wave:

[graciegirl]

they are looking for you chicken little, they have 12 likes, so only you and 11 others in the world. Don't worry in your case eat more meat the folks in ER will be waiting :wave:

Most of us would never dream of trying to change anyone's diet. What people eat is their choice entirely.

I don't know why some folks are so militant about food choices..

Eat what you like. Live long and prosper. I have my own views as to what is healthy.

[Arctic Fox]

I have my own views as to what is healthy.

I hope red wine and dark chocolate top your list - they do mine :-)

[jimbo2012]

agree to that :wine:

[Villages PL]

Why is it that people who are primarily vegans obsess over other people's menu selections? Why don't they just live and let live? Why do they believe it is their religious duty to convert meatatarians

Why is it now that medical experts reversed their thinking concerning saturated fats, meat butter, etc, salt levels, coffee...............? leading to the latest the refrain of "a steak a day keeps the doctor away"?

Why is it that vegans never talk about the fact that meat is a very important source of nutrition and consumption of a little goes a longer way than a vegan diet and is especially essential to older people whose rate of absorption is compromised as they age?

What meat is the most consumed in the world? Goat meat and that has not even been mentioned in this thread.

Seniors biggest challenge is ensuring they are geting proper nutrition (period)

In U.S., 5% Consider Themselves Vegetarians (http://www.gallup.com/poll/156215/Consider-Themselves-Vegetarians.aspx)

According to the above link, 5% of the population are vegetarians and only 2% are vegans. So why do people always feel so threatened by someone promoting vegetarianism or veganism? How bad can it be if the Seventh-day Adventists, on average, live ten years longer than the rest of the U.S. population?

[jimbo2012]

you my want to research that a bit, not 2%.

[Villages PL]

I have eaten red meat all my life and at 70, have zero prescriptions, and all my indicators are excellent, but unlike you, I realize that anecdotes don't advance argument. You know, the sad thing about cultural stereotypes is that they are better than 80% accurate, and the one about arrogant vegans is no different.

This isn't an anecdote: By age 65, the average person takes at least one medication. By age 75, the average person takes at least 3 medications, and 5 or more is not uncommon.

This information came from a USF Health lecture.

I'm a vegan, age 74, who needs no medication, according to my doctor. All my tests have been within normal range.

If you can eat meat and be healthy, good for you! But Seventh-day Adventists, who are vegetarians, live 10 years longer on average than the rest of the U.S. population. And that's not an anecdote!

[Villages PL]

Diehard vegans/vegetarians cannot accept the live and let live philosophy. They believe their life style choice is the only one and have zero tolerance for others. As seen in this message, when confronted with different views, they attempt to make others feel guilty and embarrassed.
I think the, there is room for all gods creatures....next to my mashed potatoes comment is the best possibly response to these fanatics.

When meat eaters don't have a good argument they always resort to name calling (fanatics). And talk about the "live and let live" philosophy, meat eaters get defensive over a little competition - 5% of the population.

[TheVillageChicken]

This isn't an anecdote: By age 65, the average person takes at least one medication. By age 75, the average person takes at least 3 medications, and 5 or more is not uncommon.

This information came from a USF Health lecture.

I'm a vegan, age 74, who needs no medication, according to my doctor. All my tests have been within normal range.

If you can eat meat and be healthy, good for you! But Seventh-day Adventists, who are vegetarians, live 10 years longer on average than the rest of the U.S. population. And that's not an anecdote!

You are cherry picking statistics and assigning correlations. That ten years of extra longevity is exactly the same difference between smokers and non-smokers. Seventh Day Adventists are non-smokers.

[tuccillo]

They also don't drink or use illegal drugs. I think it is probably safe to say that they live a healthier lifestyle and this results in longevity. Trying to separate out which part of the liefstyle contributes the most could be difficult.

You are cherry picking statistics and assigning correlations. That ten years of extra longevity is exactly the same difference between smokers and non-smokers. Seventh Day Adventists are non-smokers.

[Villages PL]

You are cherry picking statistics. That ten years of extra longevity is exactly the same difference between smokers and non-smokers. Seventh Day Adventists are non-smokers.

Wrong, scientific studies usually adjust for things like smoking.

Anyway, only one out of 5 smoke in the general population, so how would that account for the whole 10 year difference, as you claim?

[Barefoot]

In U.S., 5% Consider Themselves Vegetarians (http://www.gallup.com/poll/156215/Consider-Themselves-Vegetarians.aspx) According to the above link, 5% of the population are vegetarians and only 2% are vegans. So why do people always feel so threatened by someone promoting vegetarianism or veganism? How bad can it be if the Seventh-day Adventists, on average, live ten years longer than the rest of the U.S. population?
you my want to research that a bit, not 2%.

You Vegans better get together and get your statistics straight! :doh:

When meat eaters don't have a good argument they always resort to name calling (fanatics). And talk about the "live and let live" philosophy, meat eaters get defensive over a little competition - 5% of the population.

Villages PL, I remember a post you made about eating a can of salmon. :confused:

Also, if meat eaters are being defensive, I think it's because of the confrontational tone set in the OP's first post: "7,000 animals are being slaughtered because of one meat eater". Perhaps a gentler approach might garner more interest and support.

[Villages PL]

They also don't drink or use illegal drugs. I think it is probably safe to say that they live a healthier lifestyle and this results in longevity. Trying to separate out which part of the liefstyle contributes the most could be difficult.

No doubt it is difficult (at least it would be for most of us) but I have read accounts of studies in the Daily Sun where they say they have made adjustments for smoking etc.

[TheVillageChicken]

They also don't drink or use illegal drugs. I think it is probably safe to say that they live a healthier lifestyle and this results in longevity. Trying to separate out which part of the liefstyle contributes the most could be difficult.

Winner.

[jimbo2012]

Also, if meat eaters are being defensive, I think it's because of the confrontational tone set in the OP's first post: "7,000 animals are being slaughtered because of one meat eater". Perhaps a gentler approach might garner more interest and support.

No confrontational tone at all, I only restated a fact.
Most folks never realized the numbers of animals, so now they are aware of a fact.

Garner more interest, really in 24 hours 1300 readers.

Support, not looking for support at all. Eat what you wish :mmmm: your health will vary.


.

[TheVillageChicken]

No confrontational tone at all, I only restated a fact.
Most folks never realized the numbers of animals, so now they are aware of a fact.

Garner more interest, really in 24 hours 1300 readers.

Support, not looking for support at all. Eat what you wish :mmmm: your health will vary.


.

Don't get too excited, the vast majority of those visits are from webcrawlers or bots.

[Villages PL]

You Vegans better get together and get your statistics straight! :doh:

I could be wrong about the 2%. I don't think every vegan is registered as a vegan. I just did a quick search and thought it was a reliable source.



Villages PL, I remember a post you made about eating a can of salmon. :confused:

Is that the way you remembered it? I ate a whole can at once? At the time I was dividing up a 15 ounce can to make about 12 servings and I would put them in the freezer. But I don't eat salmon on a regular basis. I'm a vegan on most days when I don't have any.

Also, if meat eaters are being defensive, I think it's because of the confrontational tone set in the OP's first post: "7,000 animals are being slaughtered because of one meat eater". Perhaps a gentler approach might garner more interest and support.[/SIZE]

Was it the word "slaughtered" that bothered you? I don't think that's being confrontational; it's just a fact. Slaughtered is the word they use in the meat industry. How would you have conveyed the information without using the word "slaughtered"?

[TheVillageChicken]

Was it the word "slaughtered" that bothered you? I don't think that's being confrontational; it's just a fact. Slaughtered is the word they use in the meat industry. How would you have conveyed the information without using the word "slaughtered"?

"Slaughtered" is also a word that doesn't even appear in the original post.
The offensive word is the all caps YOU in the post. I am also offended by the implication that I eat sheep.

[tuccillo]

OK, I will buy that. If the research was published in a peer reviewed journal then the statistical methodology was reviewed. The key here is a professional, peer reviewed journal.

No doubt it is difficult (at least it would be for most of us) but I have read accounts of studies in the Daily Sun where they say they have made adjustments for smoking etc.

[tuccillo]

The original numbers would indicate 2.5% (16M and half are vegans out of 312M) . This is sort of silly since it was a survey - who cares about 0.5%.

I could be wrong about the 2%. I don't think every vegan is registered as a vegan. I just did a quick search and thought it was a reliable source.





Is that the way you remembered it? I ate a whole can at once? At the time I was dividing up a 15 ounce can to make about 10 servings and I would put them in the freezer. But I don't eat salmon on a regular basis. I'm a vegan on the days when I don't have any.



Was it the word "slaughtered" that bothered you? I don't think that's being confrontational; it's just a fact. Slaughtered is the word they use in the meat industry. How would you have conveyed the information without using the word "slaughtered"?

[Barefoot]

snipped ...... I don't eat salmon on a regular basis. I'm a vegan on the days when I don't have any.

I honestly didn't realize you could be a part-time Vegan.
Then I'm a Vegan too!

[KeepingItReal]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]The average meat eating person eats 7,000 animals in their life time.




Total bunk put out by the vegan calculator club to get attention as noted at the link below that works...7,000 is estimated with no facts on this or their other opinions offered as usual.

80 year old on which the statement is based lives 29,220 days which includes 20 leap year days, he/she would have to eat an entire animal every 4.17 days for their entire life from birth to death. Common sense says it ain't so...even for a heavy meat eater not just the average meat eater.

https://curiosity.com/paths/meat-eating-humans-consume-over-7-000-animals-in-their-lifetime-geobeats-news/?ref=h#meat-eating-humans-consume-over-7-000-animals-in-their-lifetime-geobeats-news

[Polar Bear]

I'm a Steve Martin vegetarian...I eat a hamburger now and then.

[DougB]

This thread has made me so hungry I could eat a horse!

[Halibut]

80 year old on which the statement is based lives 29,220 days which includes 20 leap year days, he/she would have to eat an entire animal every 4.17 days for their entire life from birth to death. Common sense says it ain't so...even for a heavy meat eater not just the average meat eater.

Thanks for the sensible post. :)

[philnpat]

Total bunk put out by the vegan calculator club to get attention as noted at the link below that works...7,000 is estimated with no facts on this or their other opinions offered as usual.

80 year old on which the statement is based lives 29,220 days which includes 20 leap year days, he/she would have to eat an entire animal every 4.17 days for their entire life from birth to death. Common sense says it ain't so...even for a heavy meat eater not just the average meat eater.

https://curiosity.com/paths/meat-eating-humans-consume-over-7-000-animals-in-their-lifetime-geobeats-news/?ref=h#meat-eating-humans-consume-over-7-000-animals-in-their-lifetime-geobeats-news

I guess they mean if you eat a salad with cocktail shrimp you've contributed to the slaughter of a dozen or so animals in one sitting.

[jimbo2012]

A few more stats

In 2013, Americans (about 300 million) ate an average of 104.4 pounds of meat per person. Of that, 56.3 pounds were beef, and 46.8 pounds were pork. Each American also consumed 83.2 pounds of chicken, turkey in 2013 was 16 pounds. The average total amount of poultry eaten was 99.2 pounds.

Therefore, the average total for all red meat and poultry was 203.6 pounds.

The amount of fish and shellfish eaten by the average American in 2012 was 14.4 pounds.

the meat industry states;
Total meat and poultry production in 2012 reached more than 92.9 billion pounds, up 600 million pounds from 2011.

In 2012, the meat and poultry industry processed:
8.6 billion chickens
32.1 million cattle
250 million turkeys
2.2 million sheep and lambs
113.2 million hogs

Maybe 7,000 is a low estimate?


.

[DougB]

When I joined this forum I was told there would be no math.

[Kannon451]

When meat eaters don't have a good argument they always resort to name calling (fanatics). And talk about the "live and let live" philosophy, meat eaters get defensive over a little competition - 5% of the population.

"News Flash"...everyone gets defensive when attacked. "Fanatics" is accurate when looking at the ridicules and laughable 7,000 animals eaten by each person presented as fact. Take a look around this site, when was the last time a meat eater started a post exalting the virtues of eating meat? We don't have defend our choice. Your agenda is obvious and your methods an facts are severely flawed.

[graciegirl]

A few more stats

In 2013, Americans (about 300 million) ate an average of 104.4 pounds of meat per person. Of that, 56.3 pounds were beef, and 46.8 pounds were pork. Each American also consumed 83.2 pounds of chicken, turkey in 2013 was 16 pounds. The average total amount of poultry eaten was 99.2 pounds.

Therefore, the average total for all red meat and poultry was 203.6 pounds.

The amount of fish and shellfish eaten by the average American in 2012 was 14.4 pounds.

the meat industry states;
Total meat and poultry production in 2012 reached more than 92.9 billion pounds, up 600 million pounds from 2011.

In 2012, the meat and poultry industry processed:
8.6 billion chickens
32.1 million cattle
250 million turkeys
2.2 million sheep and lambs
113.2 million hogs

Maybe 7,000 is a low estimate?


.


Jimbo. You are a great person. You are an amazing DIY-er. You are a great business owner. You are charming and sweet.

But take a deep breath.

About the above?

WE DON'T CARE.

[jimbo2012]

Jimbo. You are a great person. You are an amazing DIY-er. You are a great business owner. You are charming and sweet.

But take a deep breath.

About the above?

WE DON'T CARE.

Then why all the interest or activity on this topic?




Ps: tks for the accolades

[Polar Bear]

I'm upset about one thing...

Where is all the concern about all the poor, innocent plant lives that are lost each year to vegetarians, vegans, and yes...even us meat-eaters??!!?? Have you ever seen a raper...err...reaper harvest a crop?!? Oh the veganity!! chilout

[TheVillageChicken]

According to an Oxford University study, vegans are 30% more likely to break a bone than meat eaters.

[dewilson58]

This thread has made me so hungry I could eat a horse!

Nay.............or is it Neigh

[jimbo2012]

According to an Oxford University study, vegans are 30% more likely to break a bone than meat eaters.

Chicken little, nice to quote out of context;

it went on to say "Vegans who got enough calcium were no more likely to break a bone"

[dbussone]

I'm upset about one thing...

Where is all the concern about all the poor, innocent plant lives that are lost each year to vegetarians, vegans, and yes...even us meat-eaters??!!?? Have you ever seen a raper...err...reaper harvest a crop?!? Oh the veganity!! chilout

And how about those forced to suffer the life of a slave to prepare vegan meals at restaurants waiting for the one order a week while hoping for one a day?

[dbussone]

Nay.............or is it Neigh

Neither. It's whinny. (pronounced winey)

[blueash]

So is it the average meat eating person as in the OP or is it the average meat eating American who consumes too many animals? Is a chart from a vegan website proving we have more vegetarian body characteristics than carnivore characteristics to be trusted as accurate as proof we are meant to be herbivores or does it mean that it is harder to chew and digest plant material for nutrition than to get the nutrition from meats.

Are you aware that the long term data on Seventh Day Adventists show that avoiding beef reduces the risk of fatal heart disease in men but actually increases it in women?
Associations between diet and cancer, ischemic heart disease, and all-cause mortality in non-Hispanic white California Seventh-day Adventists (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full)
I have attached the pertinent graph below. This is the long term study of the white California group and the conclusion is important

"It is important to note that vegetarians may have lower disease risk because of their lack of meat consumption, but it is equally possible that this protection could be due to increased consumption of fruits, vegetables, or nuts. Upon multivariate analysis, the latter often appeared to be the case."

In fact the single most important nutritional difference found was a great benefit from eating nuts.

Previous posts on this thread that heart disease stopped in WW2 are wildly overstated. There was a mortality difference of 2 out of a 1000. And the claim of 10 year life expectancy difference for vegetarians is similarly wildly wrong.

http://www.internationaljournalofcardiology.com/article/S0167-5273(14)01290-X/abstract from 2014 "Conclusions

Data from observational studies indicates that there is modest cardiovascular benefit, but no clear reduction in overall mortality associated with a vegetarian diet. This evidence of benefit is driven mainly by studies in SDA, whereas the effect of vegetarian diet in other cohorts remains unproven."

There are many many more well done studies in good journals. The evidence at this point is that a lower meat, higher nuts so called Mediterranean diet may be the best for most people. But your individual mileage will vary.

[dbussone]

So is it the average meat eating person as in the OP or is it the average meat eating American who consumes too many animals? Is a chart from a vegan website proving we have more vegetarian body characteristics than carnivore characteristics to be trusted as accurate as proof we are meant to be herbivores or does it mean that it is harder to chew and digest plant material for nutrition than to get the nutrition from meats.

Are you aware that the long term data on Seventh Day Adventists show that avoiding beef reduces the risk of fatal heart disease in men but actually increases it in women?
Associations between diet and cancer, ischemic heart disease, and all-cause mortality in non-Hispanic white California Seventh-day Adventists (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full)
I have attached the pertinent graph below. This is the long term study of the white California group and the conclusion is important

"It is important to note that vegetarians may have lower disease risk because of their lack of meat consumption, but it is equally possible that this protection could be due to increased consumption of fruits, vegetables, or nuts. Upon multivariate analysis, the latter often appeared to be the case."

In fact the single most important nutritional difference found was a great benefit from eating nuts.

Previous posts on this thread that heart disease stopped in WW2 are wildly overstated. There was a mortality difference of 2 out of a 1000. And the claim of 10 year life expectancy difference for vegetarians is similarly wildly wrong.

http://www.internationaljournalofcardiology.com/article/S0167-5273(14)01290-X/abstract from 2014 "Conclusions

Data from observational studies indicates that there is modest cardiovascular benefit, but no clear reduction in overall mortality associated with a vegetarian diet. This evidence of benefit is driven mainly by studies in SDA, whereas the effect of vegetarian diet in other cohorts remains unproven."

There are many many more well done studies in good journals. The evidence at this point is that a lower meat, higher nuts so called Mediterranean diet may be the best for most people. But your individual mileage will vary.

Blue- thanks for the interesting data and your very balanced neutral analysis. You probably didn't mean it this way but your last sentence distills life and your post very succinctly.

[jimbo2012]

Are you aware that the long term data on Seventh Day Adventists show that avoiding beef reduces the risk of fatal heart disease in men but actually increases it in women?




That was in 1999 I think hardly current thinking or research



posts on this thread that heart disease stopped in WW2 are wildly overstated. There was a mortality difference of 2 out of a 1000.

care to cite where you found that info?



Mediterranean diet may be the best for most people.

Misleading Mediterranean Diets: Another Look at the Evidence

The recently published New England Journal of Medicine article on the benefits of a Mediterranean diet, “Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease with a Mediterranean Diet,” has been roundly praised. It might have been better titled, “Promoting Cardiovascular Disease with a Mediterranean Diet.”

All three dietary groups had almost equal facility promoting the growth and clinical appearance of cardiovascular disease which manifested itself as strokes, heart attack and death in those who at study onset did not have this illness.

This Spanish study which clearly worsens cardiovascular disease, is not alone as earlier this month the British Medical Journal updated the randomized Sydney Heart Study, confirming that the addition of oils worsened the outlook for cardiovascular disease.

By way of contrast, our small plant based nutrition study took patients with established advanced cardiovascular disease and not only halted disease progression but was able to demonstrate disease reversal. We will shortly publish an expanded version confirming our original findings.

The epidemiologic ultimate confirmation of the power of plant based nutrition to prevent cardiovascular disease is best demonstrated in T. Colin Campbell’s China Study. In a rural province in China over a three year period examination of over 250,000 death certificates, not one death was attributable to cardiovascular disease.

We’ve reached a crucial fork in the road: do we promote cardiovascular disease with a Mediterranean diet or eliminate it with plant based nutrition?

Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D.
Director Cardiovascular Disease Prevention and Reversal Program Cleveland Clinic Wellness Institute.
February 26, 2013

- - - - -

The debate over which diet is best has been severely fraught with a serious misassumption, namely, what is a low fat diet. Virtually everyone, professionals and non-professionals alike, refer to a diet containing 25-30% fat as 'low fat' and anything lower as "extremely" low fat, thus dismissing it, in effect. The implications of this wrong-headed thinking are huge, misleading consumers, policy makers and medical practitioners worldwide, while driving up disease care costs. Being an experimental researcher and policy maker myself for more than a half-century, I have seen this first hand.

The dietary lifestyle having the greatest ability to maintain and restore health, while preventing and actually reversing disease, is one comprised of whole, plant-based foods, with no added oil and refined carbohydrates. It is one fashioned over millions of years by nature and its nutritional composition just so happens to be about 10-12% fat, 10-12% protein and 75-80% carbohydrates, while being chocked full of life-promoting antioxidants and the right kinds and ratios of fats, proteins and carbohydrates. Drs. Esselstyn and Ornish have it right. They have shown that cardiovascular diseases can be reversed with this diet. We also have shown that protein, when animal-based and when fed in excess of our needs say of 8-10%, turns on cancer and elevates the processes that lead to cancer and other serious diseases. Nothing in medical practice comes close to matching these benefits.

T. Colin Campbell, author of The China Study

- - - - - -

Also see article by John McDougall on this study, linked [URL="https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2013other/news/oil.htm"]here (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full).

this is good read

Though current medical and surgical treatments manage
coronary artery disease, they do little to prevent or stop
it. Nutritional intervention, as shown in our study and
others, has halted and even reversed CAD

full article (http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf)


.

[dewilson58]

Can vegetarians eat gummy bears and gummy worms??

:loco::loco:

Goldfish Crackers??

[graciegirl]

My family said it was healthy to have a colorful plate where most of the stuff was fruits and veggies and a little bit of the stuff was protein, with a little fat for flavor and starch to make it go further and stick to your ribs. (none of us need that much now).... but I am not evangelistic about it. It tastes nice and it is good for us. My Aunt Elise said so.

AND it so happens that back then, when I was very young, it was also economical and many had kitchen gardens. We canned food and always had fresh veggies and fruits. Sugar was rationed when I was five.

[dbussone]

My family said it was healthy to have a colorful plate where most of the stuff was fruits and veggies and a little bit of the stuff was protein, with a little fat for flavor and starch to make it go further and stick to your ribs. (none of us need that much now).... but I am not evangelistic about it. It tastes nice and it is good for us. My Aunt Elise said so.

AND it so happens that back then, when I was very young, it was also economical and many had kitchen gardens. We canned food and always had fresh veggies and fruits. Sugar was rationed when I was five.

Great advice.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

....only 2% [of the population] are vegans.

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

You may want to research that a bit, not 2%.

You Vegans better get together and get your statistics straight! :doh:

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

Most current stats I found were 5% or 16 million vegetarians 50% of those vegan as of this year.

So the latest information is 2.5% vegan? whereas I had said 2% based on a Gallup poll. Not a big difference. Either way it supports the point I was making that vegans are only a small minority.

Thanks for the information; I'll go with the 2.5%

[Barefoot]

I'm a vegan, age 74, who needs no medication, according to my doctor.


... sipped .... I don't eat salmon on a regular basis. I'm a vegan on the days when I don't have any.

Didn't you just post a thread about eating a Reuben at Arbys?
I don't think you can be a part-time Vegan.
It's a little like being pregnant sometimes but not always.

[Villages PL]

"News Flash"...everyone gets defensive when attacked. "Fanatics" is accurate when looking at the ridicules and laughable 7,000 animals eaten by each person presented as fact.

There you go again with the name calling.

Take a look around this site, when was the last time a meat eater started a post exalting the virtues of eating meat?

I don't have the exact dates but books were recommended like "Brain Drain" and "Wheat Belly".


We don't have defend our choice.

Then what are you defending?


Your agenda is obvious and your methods an facts are severely flawed.

What's the agenda? Which facts do you think are severely flawed?

[Villages PL]

Why is it that people who are primarily vegans obsess over other people's menu selections? Why don't they just live and let live? Why do they believe it is their religious duty to convert meatatarians.

Good questions, rubicon, here's the answer:

Those who eat animal protein and junk food don't have to promote it because they have the food industry to do it for them.

What if the tables were turned and you were in the 2.5% minority? Imagine this: You read the newspaper on Thursday and all the restaurant ads are for vegan restaurants. You go to get your mail on Thursday and your postal box is full of glossy restaurant ads picturing nothing but vegan meals. You go to a restaurant and they only have one or two items for meat eaters - one is a ham sandwich and the other is a hotdog, if you're lucky.

Then you drive down the street and you see Vegan King, McVegan's (under the golden arches), Dunkin Vegans, Wendy-Vegan, Vinny's Vegan pizzas.
Imagine your world dominated by everything vegan.

Dogs eat whatever they are given. You buy the dog food, put it in their dish, and they'll eat it. How would you like to be treated that way in a restaurant if the tables were turned. You would have to be happy with the ham sandwich if that's all they decide to have available.

And if you should decide to promote meat, how would you like it if I said, "Live and let live."

[Polar Bear]

Good questions, rubicon, here's the answer:

Those who eat animal protein and junk food don't have to promote it because they have the food industry to do it for them.

What if the tables were turned and you were in the 2.5% minority? Imagine this: You read the newspaper on Thursday and all the restaurant ads are for vegan restaurants. You go to get your mail on Thursday and your postal box is full of glossy restaurant ads picturing nothing but vegan meals. You go to a restaurant and they only have one or two items for meat eaters - one is a ham sandwich and the other is a hotdog, if you're lucky.

Then you drive down the street and you see Vegan King, McVegan's (under the golden arches), Dunkin Vegans, Wendy-Vegan, Vinny's Vegan pizzas.
Imagine your world dominated by everything vegan.

Dogs eat whatever they are given. You buy the dog food, put it in their dish, and they'll eat it. How would you like to be treated that way in a restaurant if the tables were turned. You would have to be happy with the ham sandwich if that's all they decide to have available.

And if you should decide to promote meat, how would you like it if I said, "Live and let live."
I of course can't speak for rubicon, but if you posed the question to me...

I'd know I was a small minority therefore accept the consequences of my choice. I'd know that the arguments whether pro or con are not definitive regardless of how fervent either side is. And I'd be fine with "live and let live" as a result, not trying to force my views on others.

[Arctic Fox]

What if the tables were turned and you were in the 2.5% minority?

Surely vegans have chosen to be in the 2.5% minority?

If people cannot eat meat for medical reasons then I have sympathy for them, but if they CHOOSE not to eat meat then they really should be happy to live with their decision.

It just seems rather perverse to choose a lifestyle and then moan just because not everyone decides to go the same way?

[CFrance]

Good questions, rubicon, here's the answer:

Those who eat animal protein and junk food don't have to promote it because they have the food industry to do it for them.

What if the tables were turned and you were in the 2.5% minority? Imagine this: You read the newspaper on Thursday and all the restaurant ads are for vegan restaurants. You go to get your mail on Thursday and your postal box is full of glossy restaurant ads picturing nothing but vegan meals. You go to a restaurant and they only have one or two items for meat eaters - one is a ham sandwich and the other is a hotdog, if you're lucky.

Then you drive down the street and you see Vegan King, McVegan's (under the golden arches), Dunkin Vegans, Wendy-Vegan, Vinny's Vegan pizzas.
Imagine your world dominated by everything vegan.

Dogs eat whatever they are given. You buy the dog food, put it in their dish, and they'll eat it. How would you like to be treated that way in a restaurant if the tables were turned. You would have to be happy with the ham sandwich if that's all they decide to have available.

And if you should decide to promote meat, how would you like it if I said, "Live and let live."
Then why don't you simply go after the restaurants rather than attacking people for what they eat because it doesn't suit 2.5% of the population. And barefoot's statement was not a frivolous accusation. You have stated eating fish before.

[NIPAS K-9]

The average meat eating person eats 7,000 animals in their life time.

or 70 billion a year are killed for food

The number is staggering, but that's where YOU come in.

Choose vegetarian/vegan and help bring this number down

https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/p960x960/11079503_10153090351516508_1512788758567357569_o.j pg
God put animals on this earth for man to EAT! Thats there purpose!

[graciegirl]

[...

[Villages PL]

I of course can't speak for rubicon, but if you posed the question to me...

I'd know I was a small minority therefore accept the consequences of my choice. I'd know that the arguments whether pro or con are not definitive regardless of how fervent either side is. And I'd be fine with "live and let live" as a result, not trying to force my views on others.

Your post seems to be good reasoning except for the part where you say "....the arguments whether pro or con are not definitive...."

The arguments are not definitive to those who simply dismiss the results of the long-term large-scale studies.

[Kannon451]

There you go again with the name calling.



I don't have the exact dates but books were recommended like "Brain Drain" and "Wheat Belly".
Would I find them in the book store "fiction" area?


Then what are you defending?
I'm defending:
-my right to make my own choices
-my right to tell those who think they what's best for me, that they don't
-my right to tell someone that I don't care what they eat or drink, so why care about what I do.



What's the agenda? Which facts do you think are severely flawed?

What's the agenda? You should be honest and say what your agenda is. Or am I supposed to believe that you are truly concerned and worry about the health of the billions of people who eat meat and have taken up the cause to save them? Please....Spare me
Flawed facts....yes. Tell me then, of the 7,000 amimals, what would the "animals eaten" ratio be? What's the actual body count by animal? Are squirles included?

[Villages PL]

Surely vegans have chosen to be in the 2.5% minority?

Yes, it is a choice.

If people cannot eat meat for medical reasons then I have sympathy for them, but if they CHOOSE not to eat meat then they really should be happy to live with their decision.

Well, this part may be difficult to explain to the satisfaction of others. I did choose veganism for "medical" reasons, in a manor of speaking. That is to say my goal is to prevent future medical issues, like cancer.

It just seems rather perverse to choose a lifestyle and then moan just because not everyone decides to go the same way?

There's no "moaning" and I never said that everyone should go the same way. I'm generally pleased and happy with my choice. I enjoy good health and that's what makes me happy.

[Polar Bear]

Your post seems to be good reasoning except for the part where you say "....the arguments whether pro or con are not definitive...."

The arguments are not definitive to those who simply dismiss the results of the long-term large-scale studies.

Sorry, VPL, but both "sides" can make the same claim.

[Polar Bear]

...I enjoy good health and that's what makes me happy.

I have a feeling there a few carnivores out there that can say the same thing.

[Villages PL]

Then why don't you simply go after the restaurants rather than attacking people for what they eat because it doesn't suit 2.5% of the population. And barefoot's statement was not a frivolous accusation. You have stated eating fish before.

Going after the restaurants? If I did that, it would be said that they only serve what the average person wants. Therefore, the only game in town is to encourage people to choose healthier foods and reject junk food. In other words, I believe you have to change what people want. And it is working to a certain extent.

About the fish: I answered that question. BTW, I misspoke: I make 12 servings out of one 15 ounce can and it comes to about 1.2 ounces of fish per serving. But it's not the smartest decision I ever made and I plan to stop. The frivolous accusation I was referring to was about Arby's. I didn't say I was going to eat any animal protein at Arby's. I said I was interested in giving it (Arby's) a try but then I later changed my mind. It was made to sound like it was a done deal. Always looking for the "gotcha".

[Villages PL]

Sorry, VPL, but both "sides" can make the same claim.

They certainly have shown that they can make claims, but when you ask them to back up their claims, that's another story. They end up wiggling out of it because they haven't bothered to read any of the big long term studies.

[dewilson58]

Children, Children, Children.................can stop he said, she said, you said, I said??

:loco:

[Villages PL]

I have a feeling there a few carnivores out there that can say the same thing.

Yes, but only a few. There are places in the world (including the U.S.) where it's not uncommon to age with a lot less degenerative-disease issues.
It's more than just a few who remain healthy in those populations.

[Arctic Fox]

There's no "moaning" and I never said that everyone should go the same way. I'm generally pleased and happy with my choice. I enjoy good health and that's what makes me happy.

I fully support your decision to go vegan, and I do understand the health benefits that may result from this, but earlier you said:

"Dogs eat whatever they are given. You buy the dog food, put it in their dish, and they'll eat it. How would you like to be treated that way in a restaurant if the tables were turned."

That does not sound very happy to me - dreading every trip to a restaurant because you feel that you will be treated like a dog.

Restaurants are commercial operations and will serve what they can sell. If you decide to join the 2.5% you should accept that your menu choices will be very limited. Even if you manage to persuade as many people again to become vegan that would still only be 5%. Nineteen out of twenty menu items will still be off limits to you.

[Villages PL]

I fully support your decision to go vegan, and I do understand the health benefits that may result from this, but earlier you said:

"Dogs eat whatever they are given. You buy the dog food, put it in their dish, and they'll eat it. How would you like to be treated that way in a restaurant if the tables were turned."

That does not sound very happy to me - dreading every trip to a restaurant because you feel that you will be treated like a dog.

My statement was an intellectual construct and not a reflection of dread or unhappiness. Just expressing a desire for something better.

Restaurants are commercial operations and will serve what they can sell. If you decide to join the 2.5% you should accept that your menu choices will be very limited. Even if you manage to persuade as many people again to become vegan that would still only be 5%. Nineteen out of twenty menu items will still be off limits to you.

That's okay, I still enjoy the conversation about health and longevity. They say that in order to live a long healthy life, one must have a goal. And that's my goal.

[dbussone]

Boy Howdy! I concur Gracie.

[Arctic Fox]

"Which was you favorite candy bar when you were a kid?"

We already have a pipeline for this, PL - it's called The Villages Daily Sun :-)

[Arctic Fox]

My statement was an intellectual construct and not a reflection of dread or unhappiness. Just expressing a desire for something better.

I wish you success, PL.

Like an earlier poster, I have been hoping for more spicy food in TV's restaurants but that has been slow to happen so, to date, I have eaten spicy food at home and "made do" with the over-salted stuff that restaurants here usually serve.

[jimbo2012]

If people cannot eat meat for medical reasons then I have sympathy for them, but if they CHOOSE not to eat meat then they really should be happy to live with their decision.

It just seems rather perverse to choose a lifestyle and then moan just because not everyone decides to go the same way?

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.

And I'd be fine with "live and let live" as a result, not trying to force my views on others.

Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it. :024:

.

[TheVillageChicken]

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.



Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it. :024:

.

So does this mean you own no leather products?

[dbussone]

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.



Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it. :024:

.

Sorry. But Google does not qualify as an acceptable medical source. Please provide (as VPL would say) the links. And by the way, cattle are hardly "intelligent" animals. I don't know where you get your information. I know, you think lobsters scream when they are put in boiling water. So I say Baloney to you.

[shcisamax]

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures. If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

[Cisco Kid]

Sorry. But Google does not qualify as an acceptable medical source. Please provide (as VPL would say) the links. And by the way, cattle are hardly "intelligent" animals. I don't know where you get your information. I know, you think lobsters scream when they are put in boiling water. So I say Baloney to you.

Fried Baloney with Velveeta cheese on toast.
This tread has made me hungry.
I know what I am having for supper.

[shcisamax]

Velveeta...there is a whole other thread !

[dbussone]

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures. If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

If you were directing the above post to me, I understand. I was addressing the intelligence of a cow. Not the ability of the animal to feel or sense - these are distinct physiological responses. The animals and fish whose flesh I eat are of low intelligence - not like primates, or whales. My undergrad degrees were in physiology and zoology so I have a well developed sense of what I am doing where my food sources are involved.

[jimbo2012]

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures.
If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

Nicely said :bigbow:

[shcisamax]

Not the ability of the animal to feel or sense - these are distinct physiological responses. The animals and fish whose flesh I eat are of low intelligence - not like primates, or whales. My undergrad degrees were in physiology and zoology so I have a well developed sense of what I am doing where my food sources are involved.

I am not sold that low intelligence necessarily is the qualifier for whether it gives you permission to eat another species. It doesn't make them lesser beings. It makes them different. I consider that humans are just one of many species on the earth - superior in many ways like IQ- not so in others. And, interestingly, we are very flawed considering our superior "intelligence".

With your extensive education, I assume you recognize that mammals e.g. dogs, cats, horses, pigs, etc. feel not only physical pain but experience emotion, stress, fear, etc.

BTW: I don't begrudge anyone their choices.

[Arctic Fox]

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits.


You claim you want to save billions of animals, Jimbo, but you keep coming back to the health benefits?

[graciegirl]

///.

[dbussone]

I am not sold that low intelligence necessarily is the qualifier for whether it gives you permission to eat another species. It doesn't make them lesser beings. It makes them different. I consider that humans are just one of many species on the earth - superior in many ways like IQ- not so in others. And, interestingly, we are very flawed considering our superior "intelligence".

With your extensive education, I assume you recognize that mammals e.g. dogs, cats, horses, pigs, etc. feel not only physical pain but experience emotion, stress, fear, etc.

BTW: I don't begrudge anyone their choices.


And I certainly don't begrudge you your choices either. As humans I relish our ability to converse and discuss our differences.

[mtdjed]

Now 7001 animals and counting.

[shcisamax]

And I certainly don't begrudge you your choices either. As humans I relish our ability to converse and discuss our differences.

Where's the thumbs up button?

Thank you dbussone. This was a very pleasant exchange of ideas. See everyone? It can be done without slapping anyone around.

[B767drvr]

For what it's worth, and I'm sure not very much, I wholeheartedly agree with Jimbo, VPL, and shcisamax.

From my personal experience watching my parents slowly decline down a painful simultaneous path toward death (retired physician, nurse) I began to wonder if this was my inevitable future? I did a voluminous amount of reading searching for salvation or at least a course correction, and finally decided that the weight of SCIENTIFIC evidence was simply overwhelming in favor of a plant-based diet if I wanted to alter my destiny. If you're curious, my top three reading picks are:

The China Study by T. Colin Campbell (in GREAT scientific detail lays out the studies that show what the healthiest populations eat and what the unhealthiest populations eat, why the standard american diet "promotes" many types of cancer and how many diseases previously thought due to genetics are due to nutritional choices)

Whole by Campbell (also) (explains WHY you don't know what you don't know! Will definitely make you reconsider vitamin supplements!)

Super Immunity by Joel Fuhrman (mostly interesting, IMO, for the importance of intestinal health/bacteria to your overall health)


Previously, I'd consider myself very "mainstream" educated on nutrition and fairly strictly following the US FDA guidelines of limited red meat consumption, organic or free-range chicken and turkey, some wild salmon, and limited eggs and saturated fat. In short, I THOUGHT I ate pretty healthfully.

Boy was I wrong! When you had a question in life and your parents lacked the answer, someone (usually a wise uncle) chimed in with the adage, "Follow the money!" Wow was that ever great advice in the search for nutritional truth. There is a ton of money spreading an incredulous amount of bad information to keep the American consumer purchasing a lot of profitable, but unhealthy "food".

I learned I was NOT eating very optimally at all. I enjoy food, but I would not say I was previously a "foodie" like my wife who writes a food blog and is a paid reviewer, is a food photographer, and derives a GREAT amount of enjoyment from life via food. (Caveat, she's 5'4, 125 lbs) I mention these personal things only so the reader understands that food is enjoyed, a passion, but is not out of balance in our lives. It is still sustenance and that is important to keep in mind.

There is so much money intentionally being spent to obfuscate the health value or detriment of everything you consume that your mind would literally spin. Unfortunately, we all rely on the government appointed body (the FDA) tasked with ensuring and regulating our food supply for optimal nutrition and health to keep us healthy and safe and that trust is ABSOLUTELY MISPLACED!

At this point, I'm sure I have a dozen or more detractors ready to attack me as they have the previous posters, but I'm going to say that I will post my thoughts, but I'm exhausted attempting to convince the non-believers. Heart disease is the #1 KILLER in the United States, but is VIRTUALLY UNHEARD OF in 75% OF THE PLANET! You heard me, 75% of the human race suffers essentially NO heart disease! How can that possibly be? If you wish to learn, begin to become nutritionally literate and start with the books above. You'll find many more, but realize there are $BILLIONS at stake to convince you to continue consuming the standard american diet.

Finally, I'm at peace with the fact that many are "set in their ways", are healthy, or "healthy-enough", and don't wish to change their diet. I get it. My father is dying from a multitude of infirmities and I simply don't want to follow his path to his eventual grave. If I can alter my path and maintain a healthier life longer than my dad did, then I'm ahead of all the naysayers that say it's all pre-ordained.

Oh, and my foodie wife is now also vegan as well as my daughter. Our son is much healthier in his diet, but still only about half-way there. We're all individuals and we all thankfully have free choice, especially including our food choices! On this positive note, I think we can all agree.

Bon Appetit!

[graciegirl]

For what it's worth, and I'm sure not very much, I wholeheartedly agree with Jimbo, VPL, and shcisamax.

From my personal experience watching my parents slowly decline down a painful simultaneous path toward death (retired physician, nurse) I began to wonder if this was my inevitable future? I did a voluminous amount of reading searching for salvation or at least a course correction, and finally decided that the weight of SCIENTIFIC evidence was simply overwhelming in favor of a plant-based diet if I wanted to alter my destiny. If you're curious, my top three reading picks are:

The China Study by T. Colin Campbell (in GREAT scientific detail lays out the studies that show what the healthiest populations eat and what the unhealthiest populations eat, why the standard american diet "promotes" many types of cancer and how many diseases previously thought due to genetics are due to nutritional choices)

Whole by Campbell (also) (explains WHY you don't know what you don't know! Will definitely make you reconsider vitamin supplements!)

Super Immunity by Joel Fuhrman (mostly interesting, IMO, for the importance of intestinal health/bacteria to your overall health)


Previously, I'd consider myself very "mainstream" educated on nutrition and fairly strictly following the US FDA guidelines of limited red meat consumption, organic or free-range chicken and turkey, some wild salmon, and limited eggs and saturated fat. In short, I THOUGHT I ate pretty healthfully.

Boy was I wrong! When you had a question in life and your parents lacked the answer, someone (usually a wise uncle) chimed in with the adage, "Follow the money!" Wow was that ever great advice in the search for nutritional truth. There is a ton of money spreading an incredulous amount of bad information to keep the American consumer purchasing a lot of profitable, but unhealthy "food".

I learned I was NOT eating very optimally at all. I enjoy food, but I would not say I was previously a "foodie" like my wife who writes a food blog and is a paid reviewer, is a food photographer, and derives a GREAT amount of enjoyment from life via food. (Caveat, she's 5'4, 125 lbs) I mention these personal things only so the reader understands that food is enjoyed, a passion, but is not out of balance in our lives. It is still sustenance and that is important to keep in mind.

There is so much money intentionally being spent to obfuscate the health value or detriment of everything you consume that your mind would literally spin. Unfortunately, we all rely on the government appointed body (the FDA) tasked with ensuring and regulating our food supply for optimal nutrition and health to keep us healthy and safe and that trust is ABSOLUTELY MISPLACED!

At this point, I'm sure I have a dozen or more detractors ready to attack me as they have the previous posters, but I'm going to say that I will post my thoughts, but I'm exhausted attempting to convince the non-believers. Heart disease is the #1 KILLER in the United States, but is VIRTUALLY UNHEARD OF in 75% OF THE PLANET! You heard me, 75% of the human race suffers essentially NO heart disease! How can that possibly be? If you wish to learn, begin to become nutritionally literate and start with the books above. You'll find many more, but realize there are $BILLIONS at stake to convince you to continue consuming the standard american diet.

Finally, I'm at peace with the fact that many are "set in their ways", are healthy, or "healthy-enough", and don't wish to change their diet. I get it. My father is dying from a multitude of infirmities and I simply don't want to follow his path to his eventual grave. If I can alter my path and maintain a healthier life longer than my dad did, then I'm ahead of all the naysayers that say it's all pre-ordained.

Oh, and my foodie wife is now also vegan as well as my daughter. Our son is much healthier in his diet, but still only about half-way there. We're all individuals and we all thankfully have free choice, especially including our food choices! On this positive note, I think we can all agree.

Bon Appetit!


That was an excellent presentation of your view. Very logical and well documented. Your reasons are excellent and I respect them.

Most people have evaluated these choices and many people put very little effort into the selection and preparation of their food or read much on what is healthy.

When someone humanizes all animals then I feel that is outside of rational behavior. When someone does not research enough that they must take nutritional supplements to stay healthy, I question their food choices. There is no question that exercise and food choices improve optimum heart health. There is also a genetic factor too. My cholesterol is wonderful without statin's and I don't deserve it if you look at my fat intake. I think some of the worlds populations have some differing group genetics as well as some are working much harder physically than most people in this country which most likely would change their cardiac health.

I think I know how to raise responsible children. I think I know how to get along with most people. I think I understand my values, yet adjust them periodically. We all have our values and they are different for each of us.

Pushing them on other people can help other people or it can cause wars. But the discussion of nutrition is valuable. It is the HARPING of some that pushes my buttons.

You did not PUSH, B767drv. You presented your views, and very well too.

When we were renting a home here, waiting for this home to build, our landlords left ONE book, The China Study. I read it.

[Polar Bear]

...the discussion of nutrition is valuable. It is the HARPING of some that pushes my buttons...
Agree.

I don't even disagree with much of what is said about the benefits of eating vegetables. It is the harping and condescending attitude of some toward those who don't chose to fully adopt the "correct" views that pushes mine.

[Villages PL]

Most of us would never dream of trying to change anyone's diet. What people eat is their choice entirely.

I don't know why some folks are so militant about food choices..

In my opinion, your statements are disingenuous; you don't have to be "militant" because the food industry does all the promotional work for you.

[Villages PL]

I honestly didn't realize you could be a part-time Vegan.
Then I'm a Vegan too!


I don't think you're interested in a serious conversation but I'll at least do my part.

In your opinion, how many days would I have to not eat fish in order to earn the name vegan? 1 day? 2 days? 3 days? More? One week? One month?

I plan to stop eating the occasional 1.2 ounce of salmon and I'd like to know how long it's going to take to become a vegan again.

[Villages PL]

Jimbo. You are a great person. You are an amazing DIY-er. You are a great business owner. You are charming and sweet.

But take a deep breath.

About the above?

WE DON'T CARE.

And you've been known to suggest that others are condescending. Hmmm!

[Villages PL]

And how about those forced to suffer the life of a slave to prepare vegan meals at restaurants waiting for the one order a week while hoping for one a day?

It might help if they would advertise that they have a great vegan meal special-offering. And it might help if they would use the word "healthy" in their ad. It doesn't have to be an ad placed by itself, but in with the rest of their advertized offerings.

What it shouldn't be, in my opinion: No high sodium vegan soy-burgers. No factory-made high sodium products of any kind.

The problem with a restaurant advertising a healthy vegan meal is that it might make their regular meat-eating customers wonder why the other menu items aren't referred to as healthy. Is everything else unhealthy?

[CFrance]

It might help if they would advertise that they have a great vegan meal special-offering. And it might help if they would use the word "healthy" in their ad. It doesn't have to be an ad placed by itself, but in with the rest of their offerings.

What it shouldn't be, in my opinion: No high sodium vegan soy-burgers. No factory-made high sodium products of any kind.

The problem with a restaurant advertising a healthy vegan meal is that it might make their regular meat-eating customers wonder why the other menu items aren't referred to as healthy. Is everything else unhealthy?

According to you, yes!

[Villages PL]

According to you, yes!

Evidently, you missed the point of what I was saying.

[Barefoot]

In your opinion, how many days would I have to not eat fish in order to earn the name vegan? 1 day? 2 days? 3 days? More? One week? One month?
I plan to stop eating the occasional 1.2 ounce of salmon and I'd like to know how long it's going to take to become a vegan again.

VPL, you've often made a point of saying that you are a healthy Vegan that follows a plant-based lifestyle.
That's my only point.
I don't care how much salmon you eat or if you eat at Arbys! Go ahead, knock yourself out.

I've enjoyed hearing some of the valid points raised by Jimbo, B767drvr, and others.
Personally, I haven't eaten beef in ten years and I've given up eating pork.
I'm having a problem giving up chicken and fish - I wish I could become a Vegetarian cold turkey, no pun intended.
I seem to be able to move toward being a Vegetarian only by taking baby steps - obviously a lack of will power.
My reasons have nothing to do with health, and everything to do with being an animal lover.
I consider myself healthy now, and take no meds. I'm quite sure there are many healthy meat eaters that fit into that category.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of CFrance. I think I read that she was a Vegetarian at one time.

[CFrance]

VPL, you've often made a point of saying that you are a healthy Vegan that follows a plant-based lifestyle. That's my only point.
I don't care how much salmon you eat or if you eat at Arbys! Go ahead, knock yourself out.

I've enjoyed hearing some of the valid points raised by Jimbo, B767drvr, and others.
Personally, I haven't eaten beef in ten years and I've given up eating pork.
I'm having a problem giving up chicken and fish - I wish I could become a Vegetarian cold turkey, no pun intended.
I seem to be able to move toward being a Vegetarian only by taking baby steps - obviously a lack of will power.
My reasons have nothing to do with health, and everything to do with being an animal lover.
I consider myself healthy now, and take no meds. I'm quite sure there are many healthy meat eaters that fit into that category.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of CFrance. I think I read that she was a Vegetarian at one time.
I agree with part of what several people have said. I don't eat things that walk on four legs, and I rarely eat things made with wheat (maybe twice a month). I don't even eat chicken more than a few times a year. But I've never been a vegan and don't have any plans to go that way. I love eggs and cheese and dairy.

I stopped eating meat because I got tired of digging it out of my teeth, and I don't care all that much for the taste anyway. I'm sorry that animals are killed for food. That's why I spoil my pets. But I don't believe in proselytizing about food. There are too many other things that need fixing in life. Human rights and that sort of thing.

[Villages PL]

VPL, you've often made a point of saying that you are a healthy Vegan that follows a plant-based lifestyle. That's my only point.
I don't care how much salmon you eat or if you eat at Arbys! Go ahead, knock yourself out.

I've enjoyed hearing some of the valid points raised by Jimbo, B767drvr, and others.
Personally, I haven't eaten beef in ten years and I've given up eating pork.
I'm having a problem giving up chicken and fish - I wish I could become a Vegetarian cold turkey, no pun intended.
I seem to be able to move toward being a Vegetarian only by taking baby steps - obviously a lack of will power.
My reasons have nothing to do with health, and everything to do with being an animal lover.
I consider myself healthy now, and take no meds. I'm quite sure there are many healthy meat eaters that fit into that category.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of CFrance. I think I read that she was a Vegetarian at one time.

No one ever said there are no healthy meat eaters. It's just that veganism is thought to reduce the risk of acquiring degenerative diseases.

Also, a healthy diet isn't just about whether or not a person eats meat. Both vegans and meat eaters can be unhealthy by consuming lots of junk food.

It's all about reducing risk in the short term and long term too. (Don't forget the long term.)

[jimbo2012]

But I don't believe in proselytizing about food. There are too many other things that need fixing in life. Human rights and that sort of thing.

I'm not posting here to proselytize, only to create awareness.
ie; food for thought

I doubt the readers herein had any idea what the number of animals consumed added upto.

When we go out to eat there is never a comment as to my friends choices, we go out to eat to socialize.


.

[Loudoll]

I have eaten red meat all my life and at 70, have zero prescriptions, and all my indicators are excellent, but unlike you, I realize that anecdotes don't advance argument. You know, the sad thing about cultural stereotypes is that they are better than 80% accurate, and the one about arrogant vegans is no different.
Sadly, we attended the funeral of a good friend 3 months ago. He died from esophageal cancer. He and his wife were thin vegetarians, exercised faithfully, had bright, positive outlooks on life and didn't smoke. He felt betrayed by the hype that led him to that lifestyle and regretted his sacrifices for it.

[Shimpy]

the reason humans have large brains is because our distant ancestors ate cooked meat, which provided much more energy than uncooked meat - and the brain uses a lot of energy
?


:a20: Like to know how cooking meat will give it more energy than uncooked.

[Arctic Fox]

Sadly, we attended the funeral of a good friend 3 months ago. He died from esophageal cancer. He and his wife were thin vegetarians, exercised faithfully, had bright, positive outlooks on life and didn't smoke. He felt betrayed by the hype that led him to that lifestyle and regretted his sacrifices for it.

Sorry to learn of your loss, but there are so many reasons that illnesses can arise - all we can do is our best to limit them, and it sounds as though he did that, but lost out on the roll of the dice.

Conversely, the media always ask those alive at 110 what they attribute for long life, and it usually includes smoking and heavy drinking, which ends up promoting use of same to those who don't understand probabilities.

[dbussone]

While it is important to maintain a healthy lifestyle and diet, it is also important to remember that our genetic background plays a much larger role than we may wish to think. My motto is everything in moderation.

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox:
the reason humans have large brains is because our distant ancestors ate cooked meat, which provided much more energy than uncooked meat...


:a20: Like to know how cooking meat will give it more energy than uncooked.


The cooked meat CONTAINS no more energy than the uncooked meat (other than the added heat energy), but cooking it makes it much easier for us to digest it so it PROVIDES us with more energy:

a) we are able to extract more benefit from it; and

b) we use less energy in extracting that benefit.


Thank you for letting me clarify this.

[Barefoot]

While it is important to maintain a healthy lifestyle and diet, it is also important to remember that our genetic background plays a much larger role than we may wish to think. My motto is everything in moderation.

:agree: Everything in moderation.
And people live longer if they have some good, supportive friends.

[Polar Bear]

:agree: Everything in moderation.
And people live longer if they have some good, supportive friends.

[emoji106]

[jimbo2012]

Here's a read I found on moderation, what do you think?

The problem is, moderation works for very few people.

You know this to be true. You’ve tried it countless times. (And if it actually worked for you long-term, you wouldn’t need any more diet advice, would you?)

For those who don’t have a health condition or food sensitivities, you may feel even more pressure (or desire) to “moderate” instead of deprive yourself—but there are perils associated with this dietary concept for you, too.
The biggest problem with moderation is that it relies on willpower. And given what we know about willpower, and the kinds of foods that are tempting us day in and day out, “everything in moderations” is a long-term losing proposition.

The kinds of foods we are attempting to moderate— “foods with no brakes.” These are calorie-dense, carb-dense, nutrient-poor foods designed by food scientists to make you crave them, without any of the nutrition or satiety factors that tells your brain to stop eating them. They rewire pleasure, reward, and emotion circuitry in your brain, creating habit loops that are near impossible to break with sheer willpower. Stress—any kind of stress—makes these cravings and habits stronger. And the kicker? These same foods also mess with hormones like leptin and insulin, creating metabolic imbalances that further promote cravings and hunger such that no amount of willpower can overrule them. (Hormones >willpower.)

The very concept of “moderation” is intangible—so fluffy as to be meaningless. Does it mean you only eat one cookie at a time, or cookies once a week, or just one bite of cookie a few times a day? The truth is, most of us haven’t take the time to map out exactly, specifically what “moderation” means to us. Even if we did, the “moderation” would probably creep when it suited our needs. (It’s easy to justify that second glass of wine when the bottle is open and you hate to waste it.)

We also like to negotiate with ourselves when we’ve set less-than-firm goals… “I’ll have two glasses tonight, but none tomorrow.” But what happens tomorrow? We are creatures of instant gratification, quickly discounting future benefits in favor of immediate payoff—which means tomorrow usually finds us justifying that one glass of wine yet again.:wine: Or one potato chip?

Habit research shows that black-and-white goals—without any room for interpretation, justification, or negotiation—are far easier to meet than squishy goals. “I will eat less sugar,” “I will exercise more,” “Everything in moderation”… all examples of squishy goals with loads of room for us to bend them to our will and desire.

.

[dbussone]

Here's a read I found on moderation, what do you think?

The problem is, moderation works for very few people.

You know this to be true. You’ve tried it countless times. (And if it actually worked for you long-term, you wouldn’t need any more diet advice, would you?)

For those who don’t have a health condition or food sensitivities, you may feel even more pressure (or desire) to “moderate” instead of deprive yourself—but there are perils associated with this dietary concept for you, too.
The biggest problem with moderation is that it relies on willpower. And given what we know about willpower, and the kinds of foods that are tempting us day in and day out, “everything in moderations” is a long-term losing proposition.

The kinds of foods we are attempting to moderate— “foods with no brakes.” These are calorie-dense, carb-dense, nutrient-poor foods designed by food scientists to make you crave them, without any of the nutrition or satiety factors that tells your brain to stop eating them. They rewire pleasure, reward, and emotion circuitry in your brain, creating habit loops that are near impossible to break with sheer willpower. Stress—any kind of stress—makes these cravings and habits stronger. And the kicker? These same foods also mess with hormones like leptin and insulin, creating metabolic imbalances that further promote cravings and hunger such that no amount of willpower can overrule them. (Hormones >willpower.)

The very concept of “moderation” is intangible—so fluffy as to be meaningless. Does it mean you only eat one cookie at a time, or cookies once a week, or just one bite of cookie a few times a day? The truth is, most of us haven’t take the time to map out exactly, specifically what “moderation” means to us. Even if we did, the “moderation” would probably creep when it suited our needs. (It’s easy to justify that second glass of wine when the bottle is open and you hate to waste it.)

We also like to negotiate with ourselves when we’ve set less-than-firm goals… “I’ll have two glasses tonight, but none tomorrow.” But what happens tomorrow? We are creatures of instant gratification, quickly discounting future benefits in favor of immediate payoff—which means tomorrow usually finds us justifying that one glass of wine yet again.:wine: Or one potato chip?

Habit research shows that black-and-white goals—without any room for interpretation, justification, or negotiation—are far easier to meet than squishy goals. “I will eat less sugar,” “I will exercise more,” “Everything in moderation”… all examples of squishy goals with loads of room for us to bend them to our will and desire.

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Everything in moderation - works for me ...and my genetic background. Try it, you might like it.

[Arctic Fox]

The biggest problem with moderation is that it relies on willpower.

That is true, but willpower can be strengthened, especially if the "end result" is something which you sincerely want to attain, rather than just think you ought to attain or, worse, have been told you should attain.

I used to like sugar in my coffee but decided to cut down on my sugar intake for health reasons. It didn't take long before coffee without sugar tasted fine to me, and now I can't drink it if someone has put sugar in.

Likewise when cooking: I like to eat meat but have cut back the portion size to about half what I used to serve. A certain weight of meat now makes two meals for me and Mrs Fox rather than one and, since the other half is put away for the next meal, we are not tempted to eat it at this one.

[Barefoot]

Here's a read I found on moderation, what do you think? The problem is, moderation works for very few people.
You know this to be true. You’ve tried it countless times. (And if it actually worked for you long-term, you wouldn’t need any more diet advice, would you?)

With all due respect Jimbo, not all of us are seeking diet advice.
Some of us are reading this thread for the gay repartee that has ensued. :024:

[TheVillageChicken]

Chicken little, nice to quote out of context;

it went on to say "Vegans who got enough calcium were no more likely to break a bone"

I don't know why you're calling me Chicken Little, when you are the one claiming that the sky is falling.

[jimbo2012]

With all due respect Jimbo, not all of us are seeking diet advice.

Great not offering any !

http://www.dontshoot.com/images/logo.gif

[dbussone]

http://www.nrastore.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/22086LG.jpg

[CFrance]

Let's go back to the OP's OP. His statement is from an article in USA Today (not one of your more intellectual newspapers), and it quotes a prediction from an organization I can't even find in Google:

"An organization called Vegetarian Calendar is predicting how many animals the average meat-eating person will consume over a lifetime."

If I may borrow one of the arguments frequently used by Villages PL, this (not even a) "study" comes from a source with a specific bias/agenda.

I hardly consider it credible.

[jimbo2012]

Your right it can't be found in Google if you search for the WRONG name of the organization :024:

try Vegetarian Calculator (http://vegetariancalculator.com/)

it's calculator not calender

the issue of credibility is your choice, but it was picked up as valid article by hundreds of other media world wide..

The other choice is to do your own math :loco:

[dbussone]

Your right it can't be found in Google if you search for the WRONG name of the organization :024:

try Vegetarian Calculator (http://vegetariancalculator.com/)

it's calculator not calender

the issue of credibility is your choice, but it was picked up as valid article by hundreds of other media world wide..

The other choice is to do your own math :loco:

Having been picked up by world wide media hardly makes it a valid source(s). The media today are not worthy of being considered trustworthy scientific sources unless they carefully are sourced from true scientific journals. I've looked and cannot find any recognized scientific basis behind the site you note.

[Barefoot]

Your right it can't be found in Google if you search for the WRONG name of the organization :024:
try Vegetarian Calculator (http://vegetariancalculator.com/)

Could the Vegetarian Calculator possibly have a biased viewpoint. :confused:

[dbussone]

Could the Vegetarian Calculator possibly have a biased viewpoint. :confused:

Oops!

[CFrance]

Your right it can't be found in Google if you search for the WRONG name of the organization :024:

try Vegetarian Calculator (http://vegetariancalculator.com/)

it's calculator not calender

the issue of credibility is your choice, but it was picked up as valid article by hundreds of other media world wide..

The other choice is to do your own math :loco:
My quote was directly from USAToday.com. They're the ones who called it the Vegetarian Calendar.

[dbussone]

My quote was directly from USAToday.com. They're the ones who called it the Vegetarian Calendar.

Double oops!

[obxgal]

Talk about a load of you know what. I put in 3 months and the vegetarian calculator said:
How many animals you saved: 51
How many lbs of meat you didn't eat: 49

How small are these animals considering they weighted a tad over a pound each. You could eat 49 pounds of beef and that wouldn't even be one cow. Amazes me some people believe this stuff.

[Loudoll]

Sorry to learn of your loss, but there are so many reasons that illnesses can arise - all we can do is our best to limit them, and it sounds as though he did that, but lost out on the roll of the dice.

Conversely, the media always ask those alive at 110 what they attribute for long life, and it usually includes smoking and heavy drinking, which ends up promoting use of same to those who don't understand probabilities.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I like that dice metaphor and I agree.
Then there are the heavy drinkers/smokers who end up living a long time saying that if they'd known they were going to live so long they would have taken better care of themselves.

[Villages PL]

While it is important to maintain a healthy lifestyle and diet, it is also important to remember that our genetic background plays a much larger role than we may wish to think. My motto is everything in moderation.

Genes play a much smaller role than most people have been led to believe. For example, genes can be turned on or off by lifestyle activity. We can see this because many people who have the genes associated with breast cancer never develop breast cancer. And the same has been demonstrated for Alzheimer's etc.

Of course if one lives a poor lifestyle, genes will play a larger role because genes for disease will more likely be turned on.

[Polar Bear]

Genes play a much smaller role than most people have been led to believe...

What to believe...decades of scientific and medical research and study, or one highly biased, agenda-driven opinion? Hmmm.

[dbussone]

What to believe...decades of scientific and medical research and study, or one highly biased, agenda-driven opinion? Hmmm.


Double Hmmm!

[KayakerNC]

What to believe...decades of scientific and medical research and study, or one highly biased, agenda-driven opinion? Hmmm.

Triple Hmmm.

[dbussone]

Triple Hmmm.


And the Hmmmms have it!

[jimbo2012]

Genes play a much smaller role than most people have been led to believe. For example, genes can be turned on or off by lifestyle activity. We can see this because many people who have the genes associated with breast cancer never develop breast cancer. And the same has been demonstrated for Alzheimer's etc.

Of course if one lives a poor lifestyle, genes will play a larger role because genes for disease will more likely be turned on.

Search Google, naysayers, the statement is correct in most cases.

here's one quick read (http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/guide/genes-or-lifestyle)

However it is easier to define in certain diseases like type 2 diabetes and heart conditions.

.

[dbussone]

Search Google, naysayers, the statement is correct in most cases.



here's one quick read (http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/guide/genes-or-lifestyle)



However it is easier to define in certain diseases like type 2 diabetes and heart conditions.



.


Two diseases out of the myriad of genes impacting the human body does not support your claim.

[graciegirl]

Search Google, naysayers, the statement is correct in most cases.

here's one quick read (http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/guide/genes-or-lifestyle)

However it is easier to define in certain diseases like type 2 diabetes and heart conditions.

.

The simplistic answer posted by VPL about genes being turned on or off shows a lack of basic understanding about the role of genetics in mammals. A micro deletion of the elastin gene can cause a syndrome, but they just aren't turned on or off by lack of carrots, thank you.

[manaboutown]

Some of us are just born carnivores. We have a full set of canine teeth. I love bloody rare T-bone steaks more than anything else I can think to eat.

To me vegetarian is Latin for poor hunter.

[jimbo2012]

Gracie, I said in most not all diseases.

[dbussone]

How about a real scientific source - PubMed - google is hardly equivalent

I have a couple of hundred more articles if you like:
Impact of genetic testing on complex diseases.

[Bonanza]

Genes play a much smaller role than most people have been led to believe. For example, genes can be turned on or off by lifestyle activity. We can see this because many people who have the genes associated with breast cancer never develop breast cancer. And the same has been demonstrated for Alzheimer's etc.

Of course if one lives a poor lifestyle, genes will play a larger role because genes for disease will more likely be turned on.

Hmmmmm . . . Let me digest this post.

You are saying that maybe genetics play a part in diseases but maybe they don't. But if you live a healthy lifestyle, genetics don't matter all that much. But if you disregard healthful living, your genetic makeup takes over, and you intimate that a person is probably doomed, eh?

And the best yet -- genes can be turned off and on. Wow! I'd better tell my doctor because I'm sure he doesn't know this!

[KayakerNC]

Genes play a much smaller role than most people have been led to believe. For example, genes can be turned on or off by lifestyle activity. We can see this because many people who have the genes associated with breast cancer never develop breast cancer. And the same has been demonstrated for Alzheimer's etc.

Of course if one lives a poor lifestyle, genes will play a larger role because genes for disease will more likely be turned on.

You should really give credit to Dr (?) Merkola the eminent medical huckster, otherwise you are skating very close to plagiarism.
A Healthy Lifestyle Supports Healthy Genetic Expression (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/20/epigenetics-offers-new-approaches-to-degenerative-disease.aspx)