Flip-Flops - or "Did I say that?"

[Guest]

Flip-flopping has been around as long as there have been voters out of earshot from the other. However, it has become more and more difficult to hide from one's flips as the media manages to record every hiccup and burp, and later insure there's a youtube video of the event. Flip-flopping had more inpact in costing Al Gore the election than any Florida hanging-chad, as Tennessee voters demonstrated by not backing V.P. Gore (the supposed 'favorite son') with its electoral votes. His "saying one thing while Senator" and another while "V.P. and later as Pres. candidate" hurt him badly among those who knew him the longest.

Both Sen. McCain and Obama have been claimed to have stated a position on __________ at some time during the past couple of years, and later doing a 180-degree flip on the original position.

Which flip-flop(s) have you considered the most significant?

For me, two are obvious:

Sen. McCain - He has reversed himself possibly twice on immigration law changes by (1) saying that immigration reforms should come first and securing the border second, then (2) reversing that position after the Kennedy-McCain Immigration Reform Bill failed to pass, then (3) as he campaigns, to state that immigration reform is a high priority (with little follow-up on border security).

Sen. Obama - He has reversed himself on gun control by (1) his commentary in Chicago last year where he stated his feeling that the DC gun control law was contitutional and correct, and his voting record in the Illinois State Senate opposing the use of guns for self-defense in urban settings, then (2) reversing that position when the U.S. Supreme Court declared the DC gun control law unconstitutional.

And the real Sen. McCain/Obama is.....? And the true position is....?

[Guest]

I don't care if you Republican or Democrat, but if you never change your mind about anything, then you have stopped learning. We have to change as life and facts evolve. How many times have we heard that "change" is the only constant in our lives? This being so, it stands to reason that an intelligent man may "flip flop" as his knowledge on any one subject increases.

[Guest]

I don't care if you Republican or Democrat, but if you never change your mind about anything, then you have stopped learning. We have to change as life and facts evolve. How many times have we heard that "change" is the only constant in our lives? This being so, it stands to reason that an intelligent man may "flip flop" as his knowledge on any one subject increases.

I agree - very wise truism.

It is amazing, though, how many times political candidates "learn" when appearing before different audiences, and the knowledge attained happens to coincide with the leanings of the aurience of the day...

[Guest]

I always thought that "flip-flopping" term was ludicrous. The first time I started hearing it over and over again, was when the Bush camp was pounding on Kerry. And what did we get? A President that never changes his mind, not matter how wrong he is. We're all paying the price for that today.

Hear, hear, Sam!

[Guest]

:agree:

[Guest]

You got that right Sam. :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:

Candiddates do change their tune depending on who they are talking to...but that is not flip flopping that is pandering.

I would not vote for someone who didn't have the moral fortitude and intelligence to change his mind when the circumstances called for a realignment of a policy or opinion.

A recent statement by Obama is a case in point...he has stated all along he will bring the troops home from Iraq asap....well now...he is saying he will talk to the field commanders and then formulate a plan...that is the benefit of good advisors and intelligent thinking...not flip flopping....

[Guest]

Don't get the terms mixed up. Flip flopping is the natural response of a politician to be a populist and or get their quid quo pro or get elected.

Changing one's mind comes from the learning referred to above.

And there are times when an individual, let's say like "a" President who should not, would not, could not for reasons only known to a select few....and since the constituency with predetermined views, usually influenced by the media or partisan pandering has their mind made up they choose what they choose.....without REALLY knowing why an individual does what they do.

As the saying goes until such time as you live in the shoes of the person one criticizes you simply have an opinion to which you are entitled, however you do not know!

It is easy to figure when a politician is partisan pedaling, flip flopping, lying.......their lips are moving!!!!!!!!!

BTK

[Guest]

You got that right Sam. :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:

Candiddates do change their tune depending on who they are talking to...but that is not flip flopping that is pandering.

I would not vote for someone who didn't have the moral fortitude and intelligence to change his mind when the circumstances called for a realignment of a policy or opinion.

A recent statement by Obama is a case in point...he has stated all along he will bring the troops home from Iraq asap....well now...he is saying he will talk to the field commanders and then formulate a plan...that is the benefit of good advisors and intelligent thinking...not flip flopping....


Very well put, Beady.

[Guest]

I agree with Sam.

Two points about the war:

1. Money. It is nice to do good things for other people, even when it will not help ourselves. But when money gets tight, maybe that is not so good. Well, our check book is empty. Sorry Iraq, but maybe we can afford to help you any more.

2. Unlike many on this board, I have a 3 year old son. I would be ok with fighting to protect this country from an invading army, but I am not about to let my son fight and die for someone else's country. There is something to be said for the pride of doing things for yourself. If Iraq ever wants to invade us, okay, we are talking about something. But if it is a war against terrorists, this is not the way to fight it.

The way to fight a war on terrorists is not through conventional means. We highly train and arm 10,000 6 man teams to dress in traditional clothes, go into countries that harbor them, make their way to the leaders (disguised of course) walk up to them, and shoot them. If anyone has ever read "Gorilla Warfare" by Che, you know that this method that our government is trying can and will never work. We put out no more than targets for them to pick off at leisure. Anyone who wants my son to be a target for the next 100 years will not get my vote. Again, this should not be a right or left issue. We have a new enemy and we need to learn how to fight them. We need to change our mindset to a post 9/11 way of thinking and the republicans are still fighting the cold war. Sorry, but that one is over.... We are in serious need of some flip floppers!!!!!

[Guest]

I agree with Sam.

Two points about the war:

1. Money. It is nice to do good things for other people, even when it will not help ourselves. But when money gets tight, maybe that is not so good. Well, our check book is empty. Sorry Iraq, but maybe we can afford to help you any more.

2. Unlike many on this board, I have a 3 year old son. I would be ok with fighting to protect this country from an invading army, but I am not about to let my son fight and die for someone else's country. There is something to be said for the pride of doing things for yourself. If Iraq ever wants to invade us, okay, we are talking about something. But if it is a war against terrorists, this is not the way to fight it.

The way to fight a war on terrorists is not through conventional means. We highly train and arm 10,000 6 man teams to dress in traditional clothes, go into countries that harbor them, make their way to the leaders (disguised of course) walk up to them, and shoot them. If anyone has ever read "Gorilla Warfare" by Che, you know that this method that our government is trying can and will never work. We put out no more than targets for them to pick off at leisure. Anyone who wants my son to be a target for the next 100 years will not get my vote. Again, this should not be a right or left issue. We have a new enemy and we need to learn how to fight them. We need to change our mindset to a post 9/11 way of thinking and the republicans are still fighting the cold war. Sorry, but that one is over.... We are in serious need of some flip floppers!!!!!

There was a time when terrorism never made it to our shores, and those who plotted to do us harm were "mitigated" on other continents through a well-formed and effective intelligence/operations program. It took decades in some cases to build that program, and only one-and-a-half administrations to dismantle it. The rebuild is underway, but that will take quite a while, and in the meantime while that rebuild is ongoing, we're stuck doing the job in a more costly manner. While that may not be popular, it's the way it is.

I have yet to meet the veteran who wants his/her offspring to experience the hell of combat. However, I'd rather a candidate who was honest enough to tell the people the truth of what it's going to take to fix what got us into this War on Terrorism, than coddle everyone with fairy-tales of how the world will be a better place if we just talk with everyone and kiss their backsides.

[Guest]

There was a time when terrorism never made it to our shores, and those who plotted to do us harm were "mitigated" on other continents through a well-formed and effective intelligence/operations program. It took decades in some cases to build that program, and only one-and-a-half administrations to dismantle it. The rebuild is underway, but that will take quite a while, and in the meantime while that rebuild is ongoing, we're stuck doing the job in a more costly manner. While that may not be popular, it's the way it is.

I have yet to meet the veteran who wants his/her offspring to experience the hell of combat. However, I'd rather a candidate who was honest enough to tell the people the truth of what it's going to take to fix what got us into this War on Terrorism, than coddle everyone with fairy-tales of how the world will be a better place if we just talk with everyone and kiss their backsides.


Steve,

I am not disagreeing with you at all. I simply think that our politicians (especially the republicans) have a pre-9/11 way of thinking. Maybe it is because most Jewish people are generally democrats, and they have a tad bit more experience at this then we do, but the way we are doing it now is "Tactically Incorrect". There is no need to make this a 100 year war. (And yes, there are right wing democrats like the Clintons and Lieberman who are equally wrong)...

Not to mention, Iraq was never about Terrorism. It was about Freedmen Economics. When 9/11 happened our country was in shock, and the administration enacted a plan that they had already discussed for several years to take advantage of our vulnerability and get us into Iraq. The Project for a New American Century (the neo-con think tank that the administration came from) published a paper in September of 2000 that said that this country needed another Pearl Harbor to shock this country into carrying out their new military model, "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf). 9/11 was an opportunity for them. On September 10, 2001, Rummy addressed the Pentagon and laid out his new vision for the organization (which involved privatizing health care, computer support, etc. all part of the Freedman model). (http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=430) This was going to be a long process, and after 9/11, this was all accomplished in a matter of a couple of weeks. ( Further, as soon as we went in, Paul Bremer issued Coalition Provisional Authority Order # 39 allowing for foreign investors to come into Iraq, buy up all its resources, and keep the money for themselves (http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20031220_CPAORD_39_Foreign_Investment_.pdf). Further, the contract for the consultants to help 'reorganize' Iraq to be the economic model that they wanted to prove could work was signed July 2003 (http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/contracts/pdf/BearingPoint.pdf).

Well there are a lot of conspiracy nuts out there, my general rule is simply to look at the facts and draw sound conclusions. I read the stuff that everyone has to say, research the contracts that they issue, and pay attention to their advisers. All of the stuff I am saying I can back up with official documentation. Bottom line is, if we support our troops (and I do) we only use them when it is necessary for them to defend the US. We don't use them to make money or to experiment with other people's countries. I think that this is the reason that with this war, you either support the war OR the troops, but I do not believe it is possible to do both. This war was about economics not security. It was illegal, immoral, and we should get our people out of there as quickly as possible. Let the contractors fight their own battles...

[Guest]

That "100 year" comment by McCain has been way overblown. It was meant in the context that we will stay as long as it takes to get Iraqis on their feet so they can defend and govern themselves. I understand the criticism of the war the way it was being strategized at the beginning. However, now it has turned around greatly, thanks to Petraeus and many others. God Bless our boys in uniform. They are committed and bright young folks. What I don't understand is all the criticism still going on now. Somebody made a comment the other day about whiners. I think I agree ! As for me, I'm going to count my blessings.

[Guest]

That "100 year" comment by McCain has been way overblown. It was meant in the context that we will stay as long as it takes to get Iraqis on their feet so they can defend and govern themselves. I understand the criticism of the war the way it was being strategized at the beginning. However, now it has turned around greatly, thanks to Petraeus and many others. God Bless our boys in uniform. They are committed and bright young folks. What I don't understand is all the criticism still going on now. Somebody made a comment the other day about whiners. I think I agree ! As for me, I'm going to count my blessings.


It has turned around for two reasons:

1. When the troops role in, the resistance fighters put their guns in their closet and wait for the next opportunity.
2. Many outside fighters have left Iraq and gone to Afghanistan where they are now gaining ground against us.
3. Many Iraqis have decided to stop fighting us because their president is saying that he wants the US out very quickly. Once this government steps in, why risk it yourself. And from the sounds of it, we may leave, this morning the RNC guy said starting September we may begin a withdrawal.
4. It doesn't matter if one solder is dieing a month or 1,000 if that one is your father. If our troops do not need to be there (as a necessity of national security), then every one that dies, dies as a result of mis-justice. I have a friend in Germany who is processing the bodies coming out of Iraq, and he is still busy!

You can call it whining, I call it being a voice for our troops. If they are willing to place their lives in the hands of the government, we, as the people, have a moral duty to make sure that the government is not wasting them. Just as I hope they will never let me down, I refuse to let them down as well....

As a vet, I would hope that you could appreciate that stance...

[Guest]

And now we're sending soldiers into Columbia! This is way out of hand. Bring our troops home. Whatever happened to "We, the people ..."

[Guest]

This is a disheartening thread. Let's go back to discussing flip flops. I've heard they are bad for your feet. Causes the arches to fall and all that.

[Guest]

This is a disheartening thread. Let's go back to discussing flip flops. I've heard they are bad for your feet. Causes the arches to fall and all that.

I used to think that flip flops were ugly, bad for your feet, and inherently dangerous, especially in a land of escalators. However, after studying a report from the Association of Trial Lawyers and Ambulance Chasers, my position is somewhat evolving. I expect to issue a formal position paper sooner rather than later.

[Guest]

I just ordered a pair of Crocs :#1: flip flops from the net cause they felt so good when I tried my buddies on. Is this bad too? ??? Can I change my mind about them? :dontknow:

[Guest]

What I don't understand is all the criticism still going on now. Somebody made a comment the other day about whiners. I think I agree ! As for me, I'm going to count my blessings.


I don't agree with the comment that people who criticize or in effect 'disagree' are whiners. If the citizens of this country hadn't 'whined' about the war in VietNam, we would have been much longer in getting out of there. I think it is the good citizen who makes his/her views known.

[Guest]

I don't agree with the comment that people who criticize or in effect 'disagree' are whiners. If the citizens of this country hadn't 'whined' about the war in VietNam, we would have been much longer in getting out of there. I think it is the good citizen who makes his/her views known.

If there wasn't as much 'whining,' Vietnam would have ended sooner as the 'whining' gave Gen. Giap and his political leadership the confidence to hold on despite enormous losses. The 'whiners' may have thought they saved lives, but actually cost us more. They will never believe it, only because they don't want to even consider what kept the North Vietnamese and their allies willing to endure - and that was American impatience. Not recognizing the difference in Occidental versus Oriental viewpoints at the time probably caused the impatience. Gen. Giap's memoirs tell the story.

Citizens have the right to express their opinions, and should in a truly free society. However, free speech, just like any other freedom, is not free. At some point - before or after - someone pays for it.

[Guest]

If there wasn't as much 'whining,' Vietnam would have ended sooner as the 'whining' gave Gen. Giap and his political leadership the confidence to hold on despite enormous losses. The 'whiners' may have thought they saved lives, but actually cost us more. They will never believe it, only because they don't want to even consider what kept the North Vietnamese and their allies willing to endure - and that was American impatience. Not recognizing the difference in Occidental versus Oriental viewpoints at the time probably caused the impatience. Gen. Giap's memoirs tell the story.

Citizens have the right to express their opinions, and should in a truly free society. However, free speech, just like any other freedom, is not free. At some point - before or after - someone pays for it.


I am not one who will tell a person who risked his or her life to serve this nation that they did anything wrong when the only thing they were doing was placing their faith and trust in the nation and the people in control of it at the time. With that said, the reason that they 'held on' for so long is because they were defending their home against an unjustified foreign invader that wanted to defend a form of government that the majority of poor citizens (which was the 'majority') did not support. I thought it was now common consensus that we were in the wrong in that war.

I pose one question for you. If china invaded the United States with troops on the ground, how long would you fight, or how much would you have to lose before 'you' gave up. You bet your but that they would have to kill me before I would stop defending this nation. I wonder why pro-US expansion people think that non-Americans are so different. Even when the Soviet Union ended, did people all of a sudden create new nations? No, they went back to their former national identities. The only way Israelis are able to live in Palestine is to force the Palestinian people into the corners of Palestine. The entire problem we have in the Middle East is a result from Europe going into the Ottoman Empire after WWI and imposing artificial borders that did not respect tribal borders.

If you wanted to win in Vietnam, or if you want to win in Iraq, there is only one way to do it, and a good history lesson in the US on the way we won against the Native Americans spells it out. When the first European stepped foot on this soil, there were more people living here than there was living in Europe. We were able to eliminate (some on purpose, many from diseases that traveled coast to coast decades before we did) 95% of them. The remaining few were herded into wastelands that were called reservations or sent to prisons in Florida. Humans have a natural desire for self determination and though it can sometimes take a little time, they will NOT be ruled by occupiers. We would have had to kill everyone in Vietnam to win that war.

I would like to point out one last thing about whiners. There are a few really famous ones that I think ought to always be mentioned: George Read, Caesar Rodney, Thomas McKean, George Clymer, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Morris, John Morton, Benjamin Rush, George Ross, James Smith, James Wilson, George Taylor, John Adams, Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Lewis Morris, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, William Floyd, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton, Richard Henry Lee, Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Jefferson, George Wythe, Thomas Nelson, Jr., William Hooper, John Penn, Joseph Hewes, Edward Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, Thomas Lynch, Jr., Thomas Heyward, Jr., Abraham Clark, John Hart, Francis Hopkinson, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Samuel Huntington, Roger Sherman, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott, Charles Carroll, Samuel Chase, Thomas Stone, and William Paca.

But, I guess that we would have been far better off if these 'liberal thinkers' didn't have the nerve and audacity to whine about their government. It would have been better if they would have been good little boys and supported their government in everything that they did. Isn't the conservative motto, "My country, right or wrong." Yeah, I am glad that some people in this nation know how to think for themselves instead of listening to drug addicted talk radio hosts.

[Guest]

....With that said, the reason that they 'held on' for so long is because they were defending their home against an unjustified foreign invader that wanted to defend a form of government that the majority of poor citizens (which was the 'majority') did not support. I thought it was now common consensus that we were in the wrong in that war.
Apparently, I'm not part that "common" population. Why the war went as long as it did is subject to many interpretations. Mine can be found at http://www.geocities.com/matlock.cvma


I pose one question for you. If china invaded the United States with troops on the ground, how long would you fight, or how much would you have to lose before 'you' gave up. You bet your but that they would have to kill me before I would stop defending this nation. I wonder why pro-US expansion people think that non-Americans are so different. Even when the Soviet Union ended, did people all of a sudden create new nations? No, they went back to their former national identities. The only way Israelis are able to live in Palestine is to force the Palestinian people into the corners of Palestine. The entire problem we have in the Middle East is a result from Europe going into the Ottoman Empire after WWI and imposing artificial borders that did not respect tribal borders.

On the main point we are in agreement. on the "pro-US expansion" folk , I'm not sure who these people are. If they are elected folk, and they keep getting elected, then the condition relates to the voters.


If you wanted to win in Vietnam, or if you want to win in Iraq, there is only one way to do it,.....
Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea and a few more like them were and are not "Winnable Wars" in the same context as WWI or WWII. Again, please check the website referenced above.


I would like to point out one last thing about whiners. There are a few really famous ones that I think ought to always be mentioned: George Read, Caesar Rodney, Thomas McKean, George Clymer, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Morris, John Morton, Benjamin Rush, George Ross, James Smith, James Wilson, George Taylor, John Adams, Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Lewis Morris, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, William Floyd, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton, Richard Henry Lee, Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Jefferson, George Wythe, Thomas Nelson, Jr., William Hooper, John Penn, Joseph Hewes, Edward Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, Thomas Lynch, Jr., Thomas Heyward, Jr., Abraham Clark, John Hart, Francis Hopkinson, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Samuel Huntington, Roger Sherman, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott, Charles Carroll, Samuel Chase, Thomas Stone, and William Paca.
I don't think I could classify any of the above as "whiners." People who say what they mean, mean what they say, and back their words with actions, knowing full well that the actions may very well result in severe risk, pain and possibly the ultimate sacrifice - they are not "whiners" at all. "Whiners" are the lily-livered folk who complain about things, do not back their words with responsible actions, and if they act at all, it is to seek publicity while harming or insulting others. Case in point would be those sweethearts I remember spitting at me, and those with me, at San Francisco Airport after returning from Vietnam, as well as those “patriots” who thought war protest meant flinging bags of dog dung at cars with military stickers as the cars, driven by soldiers, their wives and others, drove down certain streets.

The names you listed were people of courage and conviction – not “whiners” at all. Without their dedication and foresight, there would not have been a USA.


…Isn't the conservative motto, "My country, right or wrong."
Don’t know about conservatives, but it is mine. I have to accept that any country made of humans will have human frailties, and will make mistakes. The kicker is accepting that “wrong” happens and using all means, especially the legal ones which includes the ballot box, to mitigate mistakes. This is my country, and I am very proud of it and all of the good it has done on this planet. The “rights” have outweighed the “wrongs” many times over, and I’ve seen this country bend over backwards to make right the things that have gone wrong, whether from American actions or those of others.


..Yeah, I am glad that some people in this nation know how to think for themselves instead of listening to drug addicted talk radio hosts.

Agree. People keep forgetting that Rush Limbaugh, Randi Rhodes, Sean Hannity, Mark Levine and many many others are entertainers who rely on ratings to sell commercials. They say what they say to create an audience, and the bigger the audience, the more money they make from selling commercial time. It’s laughable how many people see these “activist microphones” as Pied Pipers who will take them to the Land of Oz (mixed metaphor, but you get the drift!).
Every day I thank God for giving me the ability to think for myself and the willingness to not take for granted what others in their quest for fame and fortune espouse to be objective truth.

[Guest]

Steve,

We may disagree with some things...but I must say that I like you....

[Guest]

Steve and Jeckyl,
Both of you are to be commmended for being able to express yourselves so well. I enjoy reading your posts and thank you for never resorting to name calling or partisan politics. More citizens should make it their business to develop viewpoints based on research, experience and facts, as you two do.
Glad you're part of TOTV!
:bigthumbsup:

[Guest]

Steve,

We may disagree with some things...but I must say that I like you....

...and the offer of a cold one and conversation still stands. Will be back home in Sept.