Katie Belle's

[iaudit]

According to the Daily Sun, Katie Belle's is being relocated to the second floor and the Cattle Baron's Club is going away. Seating is being expanded to 300 and the first floor will be commercial. Although not explicitly stated, looking at the artist rendition in the paper showing entertainment and seating area, there does not appear to be a dancing area.

[tuccillo]

I noticed that also. I suspect they will continue with a dance floor, however. One of the things I liked about Katie Belle's was the high ceiling with a very open feel. It's looks like that may be lost with the relocation to the 2nd floor. I remain optimistic that it will turn out well but it isn't clear to me how this will be an improvement over what I think is a really great venue.

According to the Daily Sun, Katie Belle's is being relocated to the second floor and the Cattle Baron's Club is going away. Seating is being expanded to 300 and the first floor will be commercial. Although not explicitly stated, looking at the artist rendition in the paper showing entertainment and seating area, there does not appear to be a dancing area.

[Allegiance]

Not sure, it appears so be a sad day in Village history. The open area above the large dance floor is what makes it wonderful.

Someone with more energy than me please start a campaign to stop this!!! Commercial space open to the public?????

This is a surprise with no notice, I know its free enterprise but somehow I feel they are taking away one of our best amenities. Is there a rule on that?

It is one of the most iconic things that unites Villagers.

[784caroline]

Looks like a music hall to me...no or very minimal dance floor

[rustyp]

"resident-only club" in a retirement community located on the second floor ? Brilliant idea for those with walkers and wheelchairs.

[jbdlfan]

I'm calling shenanigans. Elaborate April Fools joke?

[dadspet]

This looks like a awful idea that people should strongly voice their opinion on to The Villages and editor of the article. It clearly looks like no dance floor or at best a very minimal dance floor(not sure where) with no character. The current two story look (2nd floor overlooking the dance floor) with high ceiling is part of the attraction and unique look of Katie Belles. The Villages is taking away one of our best amenities for another cookie cutter restaurant. Even those that didn't dance enjoyed watching the dancers. Oh I almost forgot "First floor future commercial use" > give me a break who cares or wants commercial stores in Katie Belles! Putting this in the same category as the renovation of the new Performing Arts center is a sham. This looks clearly like a very bad idea that I hope residents will voice their opinion on and protest.

david.thevillagesmedia.com is the managing editor ( 753-1119 ext 9066) who wrote the article

[sandybill2]

Hate we will lose the Balcony at Cattle Baron----loved sitting there watching all the activity at the Square----According to article will be glassed in------

[handyman]

I think that the children have lost the vision of their Father and Grandfather and now only see $,Katie'Belle's really did need work but I believe that this is the first step in shutting it down

[joldnol]

more seats = more money

[missypie]

Really everyone? I wouldn't second guess what is being done. These folks have done a fabulous job thus far. I am so amazed with this place.

[Bonny]

Most who have been here for many years have watched "many" transformations of Katie Belles / Cattle Baron. It has never been a money maker. Not even a break even.
I get upset when I see people staying all night for bands like Cactus Jack and they order a coke. Some even bring a bottle of water in their purse and don't spend a dime. They'll even stand so they don't have to pay the cover charge. They are usually the complainers and then say something like, we pay our amenity fees.
I will miss the way it was, but things change. The upstairs has always been one of our favorite spots in the Villages. I will miss that balcony.
I'm sure when it's done, it will be another awesome place in the Villages.

[golddigger52]

I saw that article too and was very disappointed. Katie Belles was established for residents and guests only and was very popular for their dancing. I too was concerned that there was no dance floor pictured. I don't understand the need for more commercial space as Spanish Springs has a lot of vacant commercial space already. Residents have already remarked that their is nothing like Katie Belles near any of the other town squares and now they're gonna make it smaller??? The image of "America's Friendliest Home town is rapidly disappearing.

[dbussone]

"resident-only club" in a retirement community located on the second floor ? Brilliant idea for those with walkers and wheelchairs.


My wife uses a walker. She has not had any difficulty getting to the second floor.

[Bonny]

I saw that article too and was very disappointed. Katie Belles was established for residents and guests only and was very popular for their dancing. I too was concerned that there was no dance floor pictured. I don't understand the need for more commercial space as Spanish Springs has a lot of vacant commercial space already. Residents have already remarked that their is nothing like Katie Belles near any of the other town squares and now they're gonna make it smaller??? The image of "America's Friendliest Home town is rapidly disappearing.
Katie Belles wasn't established for residents only. That happened a years after it opened.

[Bonny]

"resident-only club" in a retirement community located on the second floor ? Brilliant idea for those with walkers and wheelchairs.
There's an elevator

[ziggie]

Most who have been here for many years have watched "many" transformations of Katie Belles / Cattle Baron. It has never been a money maker. Not even a break even.
I get upset when I see people staying all night for bands like Cactus Jack and they order a coke. Some even bring a bottle of water in their purse and don't spend a dime. They'll even stand so they don't have to pay the cover charge. They are usually the complainers and then say something like, we pay our amenity fees.
I will miss the way it was, but things change. The upstairs has always been one of our favorite spots in the Villages. I will miss that balcony.
I'm sure when it's done, it will be another awesome place in the Villages.

Very nicely said

[golddigger52]

Katie Belles is a residents only/ guests perk. I think is disgusting that now that the Morse children are in charge the Villages is rapidly moving away from "Americas Friendliest Home Town". They are taking away all the things that make this a "Home Town". First it was the parades, (every home town celebrates with parades) that were removed. Then the parking at the polo grounds for golf carts was charged for instead of free. I understand that this is all because everything is going to private businesses, but the family is responsible for that too. It's becoming all about $$$ and not lifestyle. I appreciate the need for profit but there are limits. The Villages is selling their houses based on lifestlye and supposedly thats why they cost more than other senior developements but we are slowly losing the original vision.

[Allegiance]

When I bought, specifically near Katie Belles, it was presented as an amenity. I think the timing of the announcement is suspicious. Not only is it very short notice, but the the day after many residents have left!!!!!

Is there some legal eagle on this board that can put a temporary injunction on this project to give the community time to review??

I will donate a couple hundred to the cause.

[Bonny]

Katie Belles is a residents only/ guests perk. I think is disgusting that now that the Morse children are in charge the Villages is rapidly moving away from "Americas Friendliest Home Town". They are taking away all the things that make this a "Home Town". First it was the parades, (every home town celebrates with parades) that were removed. Then the parking at the polo grounds for golf carts was charged for instead of free. I understand that this is all because everything is going to private businesses, but the family is responsible for that too. It's becoming all about $$$ and not lifestyle. I appreciate the need for profit but there are limits. The Villages is selling their houses based on lifestlye and supposedly thats why they cost more than other senior developements but we are slowly losing the original vision.
Most of the things cited here were not done by just the children. The children have been involved with the operations here for many years and know the vision of the family.
I'm not sure what remodeling and making changes to Katie Belles has to do with moving away from America's Friendliest Hometown. I would suspect that this has been in the plans for quite sometime and is not a decision made by just the children.
They are continually investing their money making sure we have a beautiful place to enjoy.
Personally I give a big thank you to the Morse family. :bowdown:
I thank them all for the wonderful Lifestyle we have here.

[doran]

Maybe this is just an April fools joke!! Hope so!!!

[Bonny]

When I bought, specifically near Katie Belles, it was presented as an amenity. I think the timing of the announcement is suspicious. Not only is it very short notice, but the the day after many residents have left!!!!!

Is there some legal eagle on this board that can put a temporary injunction on this project to give the community time to review??

I will donate a couple hundred to the cause.
Why would you think the community has the right to review this ?

[rhondac]

I do not golf. I was sold on the amazing entertainment in The Villages ten years ago. It was what caught my attention. I was told that Katie Belles is "our Residents Club". I am so disappointed and angry. The residents opinion should be considered! The reason the music sounds so good is because of the 2 story atrium. I hope this residents club isn't totally ruined because of greed to enclose and lease the 1st floor.....this is not good news. Not good at all. KBs was the only professional indoor venue for dancing and live bands, ..............BTW ..........entertainment @ any coast and beach sounds great right now! The Villages reputation is sinking little by little......bit by bit.....what a shame.....this is unbelievable.....but my smart hubby called this act years ago.....

[NYGUY]

While some people do not like the changes, I thinks it speaks well of the family's willingness to continue investing more money on some of the older sections of The Villages.

[blue72]

We bought our home specifically near Spanish Springs mostly to be near Katie Belles. It is our favorite place to be in TV.
We are not people who bring in our own water or just purchase cokes.
We enjoy eating full meals both upstairs and down. Having the choice of both floors was always a nice opportunity we enjoyed.
We believe Katie Belles needed only a face lift not major surgery. New chairs, flooring, and improved dance floor surface is all it really needed.
The artists rendition appears to lack any of the CHARM which made Katie Belles so special.
Yes it will have new fixtures and such, but it will now be just like any other joint with food, drink and entertainment on the same floor. SAME STUFF NOTHING UNIQUE!!!!!!!!
We have always been proud to take our visiting guests to Katie Belle and specifically The Cattle Barons Club for a good meal, fun, and most of all, a spacious view of the stage and people dancing below.
The CHARM AND CHARACHTER will certainly be gone having it all on one floor.
The CROWN JEWEL of The Villages will not longer be.


We appreciate the Morse family and all they have done to improve the quality of our lives here in TV.
This is just a TERRIBLE decision by them which effects us all.
THIS TIME THEY GOT IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!
WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!

[Warren Kiefer]

According to the Daily Sun, Katie Belle's is being relocated to the second floor and the Cattle Baron's Club is going away. Seating is being expanded to 300 and the first floor will be commercial. Although not explicitly stated, looking at the artist rendition in the paper showing entertainment and seating area, there does not appear to be a dancing area.

IT'S AN OUTRAGOUS ACT THAT HAS NO CONCERN FOR THE WISHES OF THE RESIDENTS. WHEN I HAD VISITORS, ON THE LIST OF THINGS TO SEE FIRST WERE THE CHURCH ON THE SQUARE (GONE) AND THE BEAUTY OF KATIE BELLES. (SOON TO BE GONE) WHAT IS IT WITH THE CURRENT DEVELOPER DECISIONS? EVERYONE KNOWS THE PERFORMING ARTS CENTER IS WITHOUT AMPLE PARKING AND A CENTER SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTED ELSEWHERE. WHAT STUPID PERSON IS MAKING THESE DECISIONS ??:rant-rave:

[Warren Kiefer]

I think that the children have lost the vision of their Father and Grandfather and now only see $,Katie'Belle's really did need work but I believe that this is the first step in shutting it down

You got it right !!!! Katie Belles upstairs ( typical dining ) and perhaps a ice cream store or craft shop on the ground floor.

[dbussone]

Wow. Start passing out the Zanex!

[Allegiance]

Why would you think the community has the right to review this ?

I am not the legal eagle, but if they tear the place apart no judge will make them restore it. It appears that "our members only club" will be less than 1/2 the size with no vaulted character.

Whether it was ever a written amenity or maybe implied it needs a little review by the interested parties before they rip it apart.

If it is considered an amenity, so be it if it loses money.

I buy my dinners and drinks, I dont bring in my own beverages and i dont milk one drink all night.

I would rather see a minimum purchase or a small rise in amenities fees than see this icon "destroyed."

Maybe I am wrong and the place will be better than before. BUT I read this board every day and no one mentioned this until today. Seems a little strange and sneaky.

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary, I love the villages and the developers, maybe as much as Gracie, but I would like to know what exactly is being changed and find out if the residents have any right to input.

[Warren Kiefer]

Most of the things cited here were not done by just the children. The children have been involved with the operations here for many years and know the vision of the family.
I'm not sure what remodeling and making changes to Katie Belles has to do with moving away from America's Friendliest Hometown. I would suspect that this has been in the plans for quite sometime and is not a decision made by just the children.
They are continually investing their money making sure we have a beautiful place to enjoy.
Personally I give a big thank you to the Morse family. :bowdown:
I thank them all for the wonderful Lifestyle we have here.

Who in the world would ever conclude that the Family is investing their money so we can have a beautiful place to live. It's about making more and more money !!! I cannot think of a single benefit we enjoy that is a cost to the developer. Gary Morse had a net worth of over 1.2 billion dollars, so he certainly didn't invest a lot of it back into things for the enjoyment of the residents. If it doesn't make money, out it goes >>>>...

[Allegiance]

We bought our home specifically near Spanish Springs mostly to be near Katie Belles. It is our favorite place to be in TV.
We are not people who bring in our own water or just purchase cokes.
We enjoy eating full meals both upstairs and down. Having the choice of both floors was always a nice opportunity we enjoyed.
We believe Katie Belles needed only a face lift not major surgery. New chairs, flooring, and improved dance floor surface is all it really needed.
The artists rendition appears to lack any of the CHARM which made Katie Belles so special.
Yes it will have new fixtures and such, but it will now be just like any other joint with food, drink and entertainment on the same floor. SAME STUFF NOTHING UNIQUE!!!!!!!!
We have always been proud to take our visiting guests to Katie Belle and specifically The Cattle Barons Club for a good meal, fun, and most of all, a spacious view of the stage and people dancing below.
The CHARM AND CHARACHTER will certainly be gone having it all on one floor.
The CROWN JEWEL of The Villages will not longer be.


We appreciate the Morse family and all they have done to improve the quality of our lives here in TV.
This is just a TERRIBLE decision by them which effects us all.
THIS TIME THEY GOT IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!
WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!

ditto that

[Allegiance]

IT'S AN OUTRAGOUS ACT THAT HAS NO CONCERN FOR THE WISHES OF THE RESIDENTS. WHEN I HAD VISITORS, ON THE LIST OF THINGS TO SEE FIRST WERE THE CHURCH ON THE SQUARE (GONE) AND THE BEAUTY OF KATIE BELLES. (SOON TO BE GONE) WHAT IS IT WITH THE CURRENT DEVELOPER DECISIONS? EVERYONE KNOWS THE PERFORMING ARTS CENTER IS WITHOUT AMPLE PARKING AND A CENTER SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTED ELSEWHERE. WHAT STUPID PERSON IS MAKING THESE DECISIONS ??:rant-rave:

Lets all scream it out!!!

https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/000-0223122752-mad_as_hell.jpg

[Warren Kiefer]

While some people do not like the changes, I thinks it speaks well of the family's willingness to continue investing more money on some of the older sections of The Villages.

Like what ??? All of the improvements on the original side were paid out of a settlement that is administered by the AAC.

[barbnick]

If you are unhappy with this change let the Management of Katie Bells you will no longer attend shows or dine there

[Bonny]

I am not the legal eagle, but if they tear the place apart no judge will make them restore it. It appears that "our members only club" will be less than 1/2 the size with no vaulted character.

Whether it was ever a written amenity or maybe implied it needs a little review by the interested parties before they rip it apart.

If it is considered an amenity, so be it if it loses money.

I buy my dinners and drinks, I dont bring in my own beverages and i dont milk one drink all night.

I would rather see a minimum purchase or a small rise in amenities fees than see this icon "destroyed."

Maybe I am wrong and the place will be better than before. BUT I read this board every day and no one mentioned this until today. Seems a little strange and sneaky.

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary, I love the villages and the developers, maybe as much as Gracie, but I would like to know what exactly is being changed and find out if the residents have any right to input.
Why would anyone mention it ? The residents have no say in this. Nothing would be written about this being an amenity. Yes, it is a nice selling point.
When Katie Belles opened many years ago, it was not for residents only. That didn't happen until several years later.
I remember when we used to go upstairs and shoot pool & play shuffleboard. I don't remember much hoopla when they took out the pool table and shuffleboard table.
Katie Belles / Cattle Baron has been through about 10 transformations. Some worked, some didn't. Back to the drawing board. It never made money. If it were my place, personally I would get tired of losing money. I would think most people would feel that way if it was their place.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

It will be closed for renovation while those of us who are full time residents would be using it more. I bet it will be reopened just before the snowbirds return and have higher prices!
I do think they will do a nice job on it and I hope they keep it affordable.
What is next? McCalls?.......................................... .:crap2:

[starflyte1]

Downstairs, Katie Belles, does have a $5 minimum, even in the afternoons almost every time I have been in.

[Challenger]

IT'S AN OUTRAGOUS ACT THAT HAS NO CONCERN FOR THE WISHES OF THE RESIDENTS. WHEN I HAD VISITORS, ON THE LIST OF THINGS TO SEE FIRST WERE THE CHURCH ON THE SQUARE (GONE) AND THE BEAUTY OF KATIE BELLES. (SOON TO BE GONE) WHAT IS IT WITH THE CURRENT DEVELOPER DECISIONS? EVERYONE KNOWS THE PERFORMING ARTS CENTER IS WITHOUT AMPLE PARKING AND A CENTER SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTED ELSEWHERE. WHAT STUPID PERSON IS MAKING THESE DECISIONS ??:rant-rave:

The Development Group has built and manages around 4million Sq Ft of commercial real estate space with occupancy in excess of 90per cent in and adjacent to The Villages. Good business practice is what makes it work.

Why are some calling them Stupid-Hmmmmmmmm!!

I understand that even though the church is now a state of the art performing arts center, that from most reports is quite beautiful and retains most of the churches beautiful features.

"You can please all of the people some of the time-----------------------"

[Indydealmaker]

Not sure, it appears so be a sad day in Village history. The open area above the large dance floor is what makes it wonderful.

Someone with more energy than me please start a campaign to stop this!!! Commercial space open to the public?????

This is a surprise with no notice, I know its free enterprise but somehow I feel they are taking away one of our best amenities. Is there a rule on that?

It is one of the most iconic things that unites Villagers.

If the current venue made money, it would not be changed. Our amenity fees do not support this business. It must stand on its own two feet.

[Indydealmaker]

Lets all scream it out!!!

https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/000-0223122752-mad_as_hell.jpg

You do understand that The Villages does not own Katie Belles, right?

It is a privately owned, for profit, business. Would you be less upset if you got a monthly assessment to reimburse the owner for the losses?

[kstew43]

You do understand that The Villages does not own Katie Belles, right?

It is a privately owned, for profit, business. Would you be less upset if you got a monthly assessment to reimburse the owner for the losses?

If this is true, privately owned, then if they need more income, it should be opened to the public and not just to villagers....maybe that would create a new stream of income....

[Allegiance]

I ass-u-me-d it was owned or controlled by the villages. Until proven otherwise I will continue that assumption.

[raynan]

I think it's a shame because with a little updating it's unique. BUT, having said that, I did notice that the Cattle Baron Club was not well attended and couldn't have been profitable. Most people go there when they have guests but how many are regular diners? Even the fashion show luncheons this year were not well attended compared to previous years. I'm always encouraging people to go there after golf for dinner especially in snowbird season as you can always get in without a wait. Comments made to me about CBC when people are complaining about the long waits at other restaurants during high season have been "Never thought to go there."

[graciegirl]

...

[NYGUY]

Like what ??? All of the improvements on the original side were paid out of a settlement that is administered by the AAC.

So the "new" homes on the Historic Side are being paid for with found money? Of course not!! These are investments being made to older areas to keep The Villages up to date and relevant to buyers of new homes and pre-existing homes. That way, the developer gets to make more money and we keep our home values moving north!! Thank God they want to keep this place up to date!!!

[dbussone]

If this is true, privately owned, then if they need more income, it should be opened to the public and not just to villagers....maybe that would create a new stream of income....

Maybe that is another change forthcoming.

[DougB]

What do new homes on the Historic side have to do with a dumb ass decision to renovate Katie Belle's?

[dbussone]

So the "new" homes on the Historic Side are being paid for with found money? Of course not!! These are investments being made to older areas to keep The Villages up to date and relevant to buyers of new homes and pre-existing homes. That way, the developer gets to make more money and we keep our home values moving north!! Thank God they want to keep this place up to date!!!

Thank you for a rational post.

[Indydealmaker]

If this is true, privately owned, then if they need more income, it should be opened to the public and not just to villagers....maybe that would create a new stream of income....

It is not a lack of business. It is a lack of income sufficient to support the business model. All too many patrons will enjoy the entertainment while nursing a $5 drink. Free entertainment will survive as long as the businesses that pay the bill benefit from the investment.

[Indydealmaker]

I ass-u-me-d it was owned or controlled by the villages. Until proven otherwise I will continue that assumption.

This commercial property, as most all others within the confines of The Villages is owned by one of Morse's corporate ventures. For all practical purposes this has nothing to do with you and me other than to provide a place for us to spend our dough while feeding our faces and enjoying some entertainment.

The Villages residential CDDs own nothing commercial.

[Tobys Dad]

Chill out, food was always mediocre and the place does not attract many from south of 466. Sound will suck with low roof.

[asianthree]

It's a nice place inside, but the food was nothing great, not a place we would take guests because of it. In 2007 you could hardly get in and this year there was plenty of seats during prime dinner time. You can't keep a place open with no money coming in.

[Warren Kiefer]

So the "new" homes on the Historic Side are being paid for with found money? Of course not!! These are investments being made to older areas to keep The Villages up to date and relevant to buyers of new homes and pre-existing homes. That way, the developer gets to make more money and we keep our home values moving north!! Thank God they want to keep this place up to date!!!

I don't think for a second the Developer is interested in helping anyone on the original side maintain high home values. It was simply an opportunity to build and sell more houses and make more money.

[karenjrn]

:We so loved cattle barons and the view of the square and the food. We thought Katie Bell's had terrible food so we always went to CB. I can't believe they are removing such a nice looking restaurant and view to provide as it appears a very closed in noisy restaurant with out character. We love watching the dancers and bands from the Cattle Baron's area. Sad day!

[JoMar]

I don't think for a second the Developer is interested in helping anyone on the original side maintain high home values. It was simply an opportunity to build and sell more houses and make more money.

Which is exactly what I would hope and expect them to do.

[MoeVonB61]

The entire place needs renovating and is filthy. The curtains, chandeliers and fixtures are totally dusty/dirty. If more residents would have gone in to actually spend $ rather than occupy tables and drink water while dancing, things may be different. BESIDES, the Villages can than rent out more commercial space (base rent plus % of sales) and make more $$......This IS business savvy.....

[Bonny]

The entire place needs renovating and is filthy. The curtains, chandeliers and fixtures are totally dusty/dirty. If more residents would have gone in to actually spend $ rather than occupy tables and drink water while dancing, things may be different. BESIDES, the Villages can than rent out more commercial space (base rent plus % of sales) and make more $$......This IS business savvy.....
Absolutely !!! :agree: And I'm sure it will be beautiful when they are done.

[handyman]

It's a nice place inside, but the food was nothing great, not a place we would take guests because of it. In 2007 you could hardly get in and this year there was plenty of seats during prime dinner time. You can't keep a place open with no money coming in.

That is just bad management ,no reason to change the entire venue !the Koolaid is not tasting the same as it did when our sales person told us Katie Belles was a private club for villagers.

[circletrack]

That is just bad management ,no reason to change the entire venue !the Koolaid is not tasting the same as it did when our sales person told us Katie Belles was a private club for villagers.

I think it's unfortunate what they are doing, but the rendering still showed a stage and people dancing in front of it. The new venue doesn't appear like it will be as charming, but the basics will still be in place, including, if I read correctly, The Villages Residents only requirement.

[dadspet]

Well I'm don't agree that Katie Belles was filthy and dirty! But I must admit I think I missed the obvious use of the commercial space on the first floor > a indoor parking garage once Sharon Morse Center opens up. What do you think of that idea? Plus you could put in vending machines with T Shirts that have pictures of the current Katie Belle's, or a Buffalo (remember them), or New Years in the Square (this will go over the head of most newbies) . Thinking ahead they could put the Polo fields on some and a nice touch would be to put the various house models on some others with discounted prices. (I think they put something in the water tonight :girlneener: :girlneener:)

[Darlene Lansing]

Too bad money seems to be the driving force !!!!! The atmosphere is superb now , ! - I'm afraid it will be lost upstairs !! The openness of the sand floor is most unique ,
I always imagine 'GUNSMOKE ' and 'Miss Kitty ' when I go in there !!!!! That will be Lost ,

[graciegirl]

Too bad money seems to be the driving force !!!!! The atmosphere is superb now , ! - I'm afraid it will be lost upstairs !! The openness of the sand floor is most unique ,
I always imagine 'GUNSMOKE ' and 'Miss Kitty ' when I go in there !!!!! That will be Lost ,




Even restaurants have to take care of themselves and survive independently. When you take in less than your expenses, things have to change.

I am guessing that the running of the restaurant has changed hands. The lease must have been up and someone else has leased the space.

It appears to be the business plan of The Developer to start a number of businesses including restaurants needed for a growing population and then to retain the real estate and lease it to another business. This has been so of the wonderful Southern Lifestyles Furniture, Cane Garden, and The Lighthouse.

Maybe it will be even better. Maybe not.

[graciegirl]

I don't think for a second the Developer is interested in helping anyone on the original side maintain high home values. It was simply an opportunity to build and sell more houses and make more money.


Many of us do not agree with this completely, although a builder is in business to sell buildings, just simply because evidence supports the fact that the Morse family have a great deal of pride in what they have created. Wouldn't you if you had built this place?

Very few have met the Morse family in person and all I can see is that they have been a success because of their hard work and good values.

I wonder why some folks feel the need to find only bad things about successful business people. Envy, maybe?

I think that the Morses funding their own urban renewal is way cool, Warren.

I honor them. They are my hero's. Ordinary people coming from the middle of the country, using the skills and values of Midwesterners and searching and finding skills in others they don't have and hiring them, Keeping only the best workers and planners. Not grandstanding their private life. Risking their own money time and time again. Working long after they HAVE to. Keeping thousands employed and all without a drop of federal money. If I had been wise enough I would have liked to do the same thing.

[aln]

Too bad money seems to be the driving force !!!!! The atmosphere is superb now , ! - I'm afraid it will be lost upstairs !! The openness of the sand floor is most unique ,
I always imagine 'GUNSMOKE ' and 'Miss Kitty ' when I go in there !!!!! That will be Lost ,

You know, there is a generation of people coming round the corner that would say what the heck is GUNSMOKE and who's Miss Kitty!

For all those that don't like change .... I'm sure you all go to the Target at Lake Square Mall and the Kohls at Clermont and get most of the groceries in Belleview or Leesburg. And you probably never go to Sumter Landing!

I think moving KB's to the 2nd floor might even HELP in keeping out non-residents.
I imagine the commercial 1st floor will be very unique!

I haven't been in Katie Belle's to eat or drink in 2 years. And I live within 2 miles & hang out at SS all the time! I am looking forward to the change with great anticipation.

[PaPaLarry]

My money is on "The Morses"!!! For what I've seen them do for the past 9 years as a Villager, I'm sure things will work out just fine!

[Dancer64]

Heard yesterday while at Katie Belle's that there will be a floating dance floor that is actually good as it is much easier in joints as it has a "give" but still very sad to change it!

[kilowatt]

It is a disgrace that they are dismantling this beautiful, iconic dancehall. This was one of the reasons we bought in The Villages and were told that they would also have a Katie Belles in Lake Sumter which obviously wasn`t true. If they weren`t making money why not charge a higher minimum or raise their food prices? We always found it very difficult to get a reservation to see Rocky and the Rollers or Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs; the place was always packed on these nights. This is obviously another greedy ploy by ownship. it`s always about the money!

[graciegirl]

It is a disgrace that they are dismantling this beautiful, iconic dancehall. This was one of the reasons we bought in The Villages and were told that they would also have a Katie Belles in Lake Sumter which obviously wasn`t true. If they weren`t making money why not charge a higher minimum or raise their food prices? We always found it very difficult to get a reservation to see Rocky and the Rollers or Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs; the place was always packed on these nights. This is obviously another greedy ploy by ownship. it`s always about the money!


You bought in The Villages because of Katie Belles? Really?????


Really????

[Bonny]

It is a disgrace that they are dismantling this beautiful, iconic dancehall. This was one of the reasons we bought in The Villages and were told that they would also have a Katie Belles in Lake Sumter which obviously wasn`t true. If they weren`t making money why not charge a higher minimum or raise their food prices? We always found it very difficult to get a reservation to see Rocky and the Rollers or Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs; the place was always packed on these nights. This is obviously another greedy ploy by ownship. it`s always about the money!
I can't imagine anyone who would pay a few hundred thousand dollars to buy a home because of a restaurant with dancing. Really ?

[rhondac]

I have been promised things will look incredible from a close "family" friend, and Katie Belles will be amazing........I have always spoken extremely well of the Morse family and what The Villages has to offer......it is beautiful and a community I am proud to call home.... In 2004, we were told there would be 4 squares at build out and another Katie Belles, and yes this did sway our decision a little bit to purchase here rather than a community near a beach or lake. We don't golf. The Gazebo in my northern town was beside the ocean and had bands all summer long and music/beach has always been a big part of our lives. I have supported this business at least once a week, for ten years. The reason another wasn't built was because no one supported it in the slow months (I saw it) and it hurt so much they couldn't afford another loss.. I actually worked there for 9 months several years ago, but 26 years in restaurant work was enough......but I Loved it! So anyways, we dine, indulge a little and always have a wonderful time!!! I dance....I love to dance...In the summer when too hot, or winter when too cold, (to be outdoors) you may see us at KBs a couple of times in a week. Dancing is my favorite choice of exercise. I am hoping for a mild summer so the dancing will continue at the squares until the NEW, BETTER, AMAZING Katie Belles opens. The folks working there have become family, the owners are doing everything to help them transition and find work.......but some will have a very rough time...........If you support this community, go in dine, spend.... give a great tip or a job offer.......we have until May 1st to cherish this old love..... :spoken:

[Bonny]

I agree. I'm sure it will be beautiful !
What ever the Villages does is always top notch !!
Just another reason that I'm so happy to say I live in this awesome place !!
A big thank you to the Morse family ! :bigbow:

[looneycat]

It is a disgrace that they are dismantling this beautiful, iconic dancehall. This was one of the reasons we bought in The Villages and were told that they would also have a Katie Belles in Lake Sumter which obviously wasn`t true. If they weren`t making money why not charge a higher minimum or raise their food prices? We always found it very difficult to get a reservation to see Rocky and the Rollers or Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs; the place was always packed on these nights. This is obviously another greedy ploy by ownship. it`s always about the money!

why not buy it and see how well your ideas fly ?
there is another alternative, go out of business.

[janmcn]

Who in the world would ever conclude that the Family is investing their money so we can have a beautiful place to live. It's about making more and more money !!! I cannot think of a single benefit we enjoy that is a cost to the developer. Gary Morse had a net worth of over 1.2 billion dollars, so he certainly didn't invest a lot of it back into things for the enjoyment of the residents. If it doesn't make money, out it goes >>>>...


Why would anyone who owns a bank invest their own money?

[Barefoot]

If they weren`t making money why not charge a higher minimum or raise their food prices?

I wondered about that myself - I'd love to see Katie's stay as is.
I always enjoyed The Cattle Baron overlooking Katie's entertainment.
But we Wrinklies tend to be adverse to change ....
Most of the Developer's new concepts turn out to be class acts.
Fingers crossed for the new KBs.

[Warren Kiefer]

I think it's a shame because with a little updating it's unique. BUT, having said that, I did notice that the Cattle Baron Club was not well attended and couldn't have been profitable. Most people go there when they have guests but how many are regular diners? Even the fashion show luncheons this year were not well attended compared to previous years. I'm always encouraging people to go there after golf for dinner especially in snowbird season as you can always get in without a wait. Comments made to me about CBC when people are complaining about the long waits at other restaurants during high season have been "Never thought to go there."

I did a little poll this morning among my golfing friends. Almost to a man, each said that they within the past year had an experience of poor food and so so service at Cattle Baron's Club. I personally made a decision not to return to this restaurant because of my personal experience. I also don't understand why CBC recently took away the soup and salad bar which further reduced patrons. Now, let us compare CBC to Outback, Applebees and Longhorn which are absolutely packed every night. One can only conclude that the poor management, poor food quality and poor service is the root cause of why CBC remains nearly empty when ALL other local restaurants have people waiting at the front door to get in...

[Warren Kiefer]

It's a nice place inside, but the food was nothing great, not a place we would take guests because of it. In 2007 you could hardly get in and this year there was plenty of seats during prime dinner time. You can't keep a place open with no money coming in.

Does the Developer really believe that moving Katy Belle upstairs will bring in hoards of diners ??? Someone in this decision making process needs to become aware that it wasn't the facility it is the management of that facility that is sinking the ship. Same management in a new Katy Belles will have the same result as present. It is probably time for Macky to move on anf let someone else be in charge of hospitality. Don't blame the Villagers for the failings resulting in poor food at the CBC, they are dining at Bone Fish or Outback.

[Warren Kiefer]

Absolutely !!! :agree: And I'm sure it will be beautiful when they are done.

Beautiful will never make up for poor food and poor service. I wouldn't call Outback beautiful, but try to get an immediate seating there.

[nana13]

If it ain't broke why fix it.???? Katie Belle's was always the place I took visitor's who came to see us. We would either go the the Cattlemen's club, or stay down stairs. They loved the music, dance floor and down home atmosphere. What are the developers thinking??????. Money, money, money, This place is an icon, with a history that goes back to the original concept of the restaurant and dance hall they started in Michigan. Why change??. The Villages is called Florida's Friendliest home town. Well it is not the home town any more, it is a mega city, and still growing. When will it stop, we do not have the infrastructure to support the growth. And what existing landmarks we have are now being destroyed for further development, What has happened to the original concept of why this community was built. I love this place and moved here because of all of the above, and we as residents just sit back and watch the changes, and never voice our opinions except to neighbors, and golf buddies. The Morse family has got to stop and reconsider what the original plan was. Leave The Villages as is. Stop the growth and move to another area to develop.

[Shimpy]

I feel bad for the employees that will be out of work till fall while all this is taking place.

[kilowatt]

If certain individuals had read my post carefully they would have understood that I said Katie Belles was "one of the reasons I bought in The Villages." Before you go criticizing someone`s comments you should be able to read what they expressed and not take it out of context because someone doesn`t agree with your opinion.

[kilowatt]

I have my fingers crossed as well, let`s hope for the best

[spring_chicken]

Who in the world would ever conclude that the Family is investing their money so we can have a beautiful place to live. It's about making more and more money !!! I cannot think of a single benefit we enjoy that is a cost to the developer. Gary Morse had a net worth of over 1.2 billion dollars, so he certainly didn't invest a lot of it back into things for the enjoyment of the residents. If it doesn't make money, out it goes >>>>...

Yeah, I'm not a "developer hater" but I've never understood those who fall on their knees and say "look what he is doing for us". UMMM he didn't do ANY of this for ANY of us. It's capitalism, which I am all for. I just don't understand the blind sheep who think that this family is DONATING this lifestyle. If they weren't becoming billionaires doing it, they would be long gone by now.
I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just not a blind sheep.

[Skybo]

The CB Club and Katie Belles was a place I always took my guests, mainly for the ambience and music, but always with fingers crossed that the food would be good, or at least edible. Sometimes it was "pretty good", and other times it was just awful. I stopped taking guests there for food. There were too many times that we returned dishes, only to have them re-served, just as bad. And believe me, my family and friends aren't picky eaters. I agree that it is a beautiful building with an iconic past. But beautiful and iconic won't pay the bills if the food isn't predictably worth the price. I keep my fingers crossed that the re-vamp will work.

[Barefoot]

...... What has happened to the original concept of I love this place and moved here because of all of the above, and we as residents just sit back and watch the changes, and never voice our opinions except to neighbors, and golf buddies.

I agree that talking to neighbor's and golf buddies won't change anything.
I assume you've used the annual Villages survey to make your feelings known.

[Polar Bear]

...UMMM he didn't do ANY of this for ANY of us. It's capitalism, which I am all for. I just don't understand the blind sheep who think that this family is DONATING this lifestyle. If they weren't becoming billionaires doing it, they would be long gone by now.

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just not a blind sheep.

You don't have to be a blind sheep to like what the developer has done for us. Yes...for us...as well as for him and his family. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You say you're all for capitalism, but then you make it sound selfish. I'm not sure you believe in it too deeply.

[Cisco Kid]

I heard a Trader Joe's was going in on the 1st floor.

[spring_chicken]

You don't have to be a blind sheep to like what the developer has done for us. Yes...for us...as well as for him and his family. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You say you're all for capitalism, but then you make it sound selfish. I'm not sure you believe in it too deeply.

Not sure how you got "selfish" out of that. Any smart business man would walk away from a losing proposition, just like Morse would if he wasn't making money on this.
One of my favorite capitalists is S. Truett Cathy. Most who eat at his restaurant don't even know his name. They like the product, and they buy. They don't bow down and say "look what this wonderful man did for us out of the kindness of his heart!"

[Happinow]

I am probable amongst the minority here but I think it's time for Katie Bells to get a make over. I was there not long ago and my first impression was that it felt very dated. Not exactly the members only club I would frequent much. I think if we let the Morses do what they do so well and give us a venue that is modern and fresh in the end we will grow to love it. Just look around.....how many buildings have been done poorly? I can't think of any. Their style and design is second to none as proven with the rec centers. I think change is hard but give it time and we will appreciate it.

[dbussone]

I heard a Trader Joe's was going in on the 1st floor.

Or a Home Goods would work, I've been told.

[circletrack]

I heard a Trader Joe's was going in on the 1st floor.

Likely a joke, but I do believe that something big is behind this change. Some business must want a prominent spot on the square and TV was willing to make changes to make that happen.

Much like they did in moving Banner Mercantile and the WVLG station to make way for the new World of Beer.

[Bonny]

Beautiful will never make up for poor food and poor service. I wouldn't call Outback beautiful, but try to get an immediate seating there.
We personally, have never had a problem with the food at Katie Belles or Cattle Baron. We eat at Cattle Baron quite often.

[Allegiance]

When I purchased not only was Katie Belle's presented as an amenity but it was a big factor in our decision to purchase. Several of our guests that we have brought to Katie Belle's have decided to buy in the Villages as well, sighting their fun times at Katie's as a major factor. There is no way they can keep it special if they profiteer the first floor away.
The Morse family should survey their salespeople to verify that in fact Katies has been presented as an AMENITY! This protest should eclipse the Great Wall Protest by 100 fold.
Renovate yes, but keep the basic floor-plan and ambiance, tall ceiling, balconies, TWO floors!
Please Morse Family do the right thing.

PS- restating: short notice and the timing is suspicious, April 1st, after many have left!

[Bonny]

When I purchased not only was Katie Belle's presented as an amenity but it was a big factor in our decision to purchase. Several of our guests that we have brought to Katie Belle's have decided to buy in the Villages as well, sighting their fun times at Katie's as a major factor. There is no way they can keep it special if they profiteer the first floor away.
The Morse family should survey their salespeople to verify that in fact Katies has been presented as an AMENITY! This protest should eclipse the Great Wall Protest by 100 fold.
Renovate yes, but keep the basic floor-plan and ambiance, tall ceiling, balconies, TWO floors!
Please Morse Family do the right thing.
A selling feature, yes. An amenity, no.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Or a Home Goods would work, I've been told.
I hear it might be a HOOTERS!:thumbup:

[Allegiance]

The Wall was not an amenity, but voices were heard. Katies may not be a technical Amenity but it was presented as such, therefore it possibility is.

[Mleeja]

I do not like that KB is closing for renovations as I enjoy going there. The food was so so, but it was still fun. I have only been a Villager for a couple of years now and do not recall KB being promoted as an amenity. I really doubt that this is much of an issue for those south of 466 and those south of 466a probably REALLY don't care.

I have not been disappointed in the new and upgraded facilities to date. I think I'll give the developers a chance before I begin to critize. As much as we might not like it, businesses can't operate on a model that is losing money. Which is better, a renovated Kattie Belle's or no Kattie Belle's at all?

[Allegiance]

Additionally, how can people support the developer 100% of the time? It makes me value their opinion less.

[kstew43]

kinda thought it just might of been a Aprils Fools joke......guess not...

[Allegiance]

I do not like that KB is closing for renovations as I enjoy going there. The food was so so, but it was still fun. I have only been a Villager for a couple of years now and do not recall KB being promoted as an amenity. I really doubt that this is much of an issue for those south of 466 and those south of 466a probably REALLY don't care.

I have not been disappointed in the new and upgraded facilities to date. I think I'll give the developers a chance before I begin to critize. As much as we might not like it, businesses can't operate on a model that is losing money. Which is better, a renovated Kattie Belle's or no Kattie Belle's at all?

It certainly was presented as an Amenity to those buying near it. Giving them a chance when they can not undo the renovation is wrong. They are taking away more than 50% of the square feet and 80% of the cubic feet, and 100% of the atmosphere.

These young billionaires should look at the bigger picture. Dont listen to the Accountants all the time. You three appeared very sincere in "The Sharon" presentation, make your parents proud. :thumbup:

[Mleeja]

Additionally, how can people support the developer 100% of the time? It makes me value their opinion less.

Well, if you read my post you would see that I stated in my time in The Villages the developer has done nothing to cause me to think otherwise. I think less of posters that come here and attack others just because they do not agree. How does doing this promote open discussion?

[kstew43]

It's all about the money to be made......

[Goober III]

Having to climb a flight of stairs is not a great idea if you're trying to attract those in our age group. I know it has kept me and mine from eating at the Cattle Baron. One of the great attractions of moving here was getting away from all that stair climbing.

[Mleeja]

Having to climb a flight of stairs is not a great idea if you're trying to attract those in our age group. I know it has kept me and mine from eating at the Cattle Baron. One of the great attractions of moving here was getting away from all that stair climbing.

You do know there is an elevator in Katie Belle's? Just off to the left when you enter.

[graciegirl]

It's all about the money to be made......


When people keep mentioning money and greed, my mind leaps to the possibility that they were the ones who didn't save their money like their mom told them to do.

They didn't cut their own hair, or work overtime or sew their own curtains or clip coupons. And they maxed out their credit cards and bought dumb stuff they didn't need and never ate leftovers and bought houses they couldn't afford.

That is what I think when people bring up money and greed.

They shoulda listened to their mom.

Of course it is about the money to be made. That isn't a BAD thing.

[kstew43]

When people keep mentioning money and greed, my mind leaps to the possibility that they were the ones who didn't save their money like their mom told them to do.

They didn't cut their own hair, or work overtime or sew their own curtains or clip coupons. And they maxed out their credit cards and bought dumb stuff they didn't need and never ate leftovers and bought houses they couldn't afford.

That is what I think when people bring up money and greed.

They shoulda listened to their mom.

Of course it is about the money to be made. That isn't a BAD thing.

I do feel that Katie Bells is a tribute to the original villages...I don't think that changing the Structure of a building that has been around since the 70's is going to be the answer..

I do think that a new management company possibly will help bring in the money... I do understand the problem and the no refill on sodas rule established years ago was not the answer. I don't think that listening to there mom has anything to do with this venture.....

[Jim 9922]

When people keep mentioning money and greed, my mind leaps to the possibility that they were the ones who didn't save their money like their mom told them to do.

They didn't cut their own hair, or work overtime or sew their own curtains or clip coupons. And they maxed out their credit cards and bought dumb stuff they didn't need and never ate leftovers and bought houses they couldn't afford.

That is what I think when people bring up money and greed.

They shoulda listened to their mom.

Of course it is about the money to be made. That isn't a BAD thing.
Well said! Besides, all the expert complainers could rent a building and build another Katie Belle's just the way they want it,--- and they could keep ALL the gigantic profits just for themselves.:thumbup: That's the American way.

[janmcn]

Well said! Besides, all the expert complainers could rent a building and build another Katie Belle's just the way they want it,--- and they could keep ALL the gigantic profits just for themselves.:thumbup: That's the American way.

IF they could get permission from Mark Morse. They would have to find a piece of land that Morse would be willing to sell them, then they would have to have their plans approved by Morse, then they would have to give Morse a percentage of their profits. That's The Villages way.

[dadspet]

I know its hard to believe but some of us didn't come here to golf. As several have indicated Katie Belles left a very positive check mark on their "would I move here list". While Katie Belle's might not have been the only reason for us buying here (and BTW currently very south of 466) it clearly left a very positive impression of the life style represented here and as dancers it probably was a larger + for us then those that aren't. But I don't think it takes a dancer to appreciate what Katie Belles represented and the positive impression the atmosphere probably left in most peoples mind. A Trader Joes (or what ever) in the first floor or a floating dance floor upstairs is kind of like saying we are improving the golf here by replacing the last 2 holes with miniature golf and everyone shaking there head and saying "The Villages can't be wrong give them a chance, I'm sure it will be just great like everything else they did". Could it have been updated a bit > perhaps; could the food have been improved > YES, could the drink prices be lower > N0. I think the only thing that would soften my opinion is building a nicer facility, with even more character, in Brownwood and I don't see that happening but I guess I can hope. Oh BTW I do golf (some have questioned this ) now and would not be happy with miniature golf on the last 2 holes > move that over to the soft ball fields between 2nd, 3rd AND HOME base ( I don't play softball) -- keep away from the PB courts. Oh (two many Oh) I think the name of the new facility should be changed since calling it Katie Belles wouldn't be right; How about "Upstairs at Spanish Springs" or a real classy name thats sure draw like dinning at "Trader Joes" (or what ever). Got all that off my chest for now, wish I could get it off my mid section as easy.

[Allegiance]

Excellent dadspet!

[graciegirl]

I do feel that Katie Bells is a tribute to the original villages...I don't think that changing the Structure of a building that has been around since the 70's is going to be the answer..

I do think that a new management company possibly will help bring in the money... I do understand the problem and the no refill on sodas rule established years ago was not the answer. I don't think that listening to there mom has anything to do with this venture.....

You are twenty years off the mark about how old Katie Belles is.... And you have chosen to not live HERE.

And there is nothing wrong with making money. Stealing it is another thing. Money is nice to have when you need it. You can take care of your self and not burden others. And if you have enough you can build retirement communities for old-er people and if you do it well that retirement community becomes the fastest growing place in The United States....without government funding too.

Yup. It is about the best thing I have found since canned beer.

[Polar Bear]

Not sure how you got "selfish" out of that. Any smart business man would walk away from a losing proposition, just like Morse would if he wasn't making money on this.

One of my favorite capitalists is S. Truett Cathy. Most who eat at his restaurant don't even know his name. They like the product, and they buy. They don't bow down and say "look what this wonderful man did for us out of the kindness of his heart!"

You're right...capitalism doesn't have to have selfless motives to succeed. But many villagers see TV as a venture by the developer that sincerely considers the wants and needs of the residents...as well as their own. To refer to those villagers with such terms as "blind sheep" and "bow down" belittles both the developer and those villagers who don't share your opinion.
I don't think most people who are happy here say "look what this wonderful man did for us out of the kindness of his heart!". I think they simply believe he is a good developer...who makes a lot of money for that very reason.

[Bonny]

IF they could get permission from Mark Morse. They would have to find a piece of land that Morse would be willing to sell them, then they would have to have their plans approved by Morse, then they would have to give Morse a percentage of their profits. That's The Villages way.
Absolutely, and it would be my way also. LOL :D

[keithwand]

Mr. Midnight has left the building.
Rumor has it his new base of operations is Scooples in Brownwood.

[Challenger]

Likely a joke, but I do believe that something big is behind this change. Some business must want a prominent spot on the square and TV was willing to make changes to make that happen.

Much like they did in moving Banner Mercantile and the WVLG station to make way for the new World of Beer.

"We the People", actually vote for our favorite business with our wallets. If enough people like it and spend their dollars at an establishment , it will most likely survive. Survival of the fittest is what clears out the dead wood and brings on renewal and inovation.

If you want to save an "historic" treasure or icon, someone has to pay for it--like contributors or tax payers.

I choose capitalism, even though it is sometimes sad to see an old friend go.

[Bonny]

"We the People", actually vote for our favorite business with our wallets. If enough people like it and spend their dollars at an establishment , it will most likely survive. Survival of the fittest is what clears out the dead wood and brings on renewal and inovation.

If you want to save an "historic" treasure or icon, someone has to pay for it--like contributors or tax payers.

I choose capitalism, even though it is sometimes sad to see an old friend go.
Well said.

[Warren Kiefer]

Many of us do not agree with this completely, although a builder is in business to sell buildings, just simply because evidence supports the fact that the Morse family have a great deal of pride in what they have created. Wouldn't you if you had built this place?

Very few have met the Morse family in person and all I can see is that they have been a success because of their hard work and good values.

I wonder why some folks feel the need to find only bad things about successful business people. Envy, maybe?

I think that the Morses funding their own urban renewal is way cool, Warren.

I honor them. They are my hero's. Ordinary people coming from the middle of the country, using the skills and values of Midwesterners and searching and finding skills in others they don't have and hiring them, Keeping only the best workers and planners. Not grandstanding their private life. Risking their own money time and time again. Working long after they HAVE to. Keeping thousands employed and all without a drop of federal money. If I had been wise enough I would have liked to do the same thing.

I suggest you check out the meaning of ordinary as it applies to the Schwartz family. I don't consider owning a successful restaurant and multiple radio stations as being an ordinary family. Risking ones own money was not how the Villages were built. If one is aware of how the CCD's functioned is easily becomes understandable how you can build something like the Villages on other peoples money. Walt Disney did exactly the same thing. Bonds are sold, the developer gest operating capital, buyers pay off the bonds.

[Warren Kiefer]

If it ain't broke why fix it.???? Katie Belle's was always the place I took visitor's who came to see us. We would either go the the Cattlemen's club, or stay down stairs. They loved the music, dance floor and down home atmosphere. What are the developers thinking??????. Money, money, money, This place is an icon, with a history that goes back to the original concept of the restaurant and dance hall they started in Michigan. Why change??. The Villages is called Florida's Friendliest home town. Well it is not the home town any more, it is a mega city, and still growing. When will it stop, we do not have the infrastructure to support the growth. And what existing landmarks we have are now being destroyed for further development, What has happened to the original concept of why this community was built. I love this place and moved here because of all of the above, and we as residents just sit back and watch the changes, and never voice our opinions except to neighbors, and golf buddies. The Morse family has got to stop and reconsider what the original plan was. Leave The Villages as is. Stop the growth and move to another area to develop.

The family forgot what Harold Schwartz's vision was for the Villages.

[Warren Kiefer]

I am probable amongst the minority here but I think it's time for Katie Bells to get a make over. I was there not long ago and my first impression was that it felt very dated. Not exactly the members only club I would frequent much. I think if we let the Morses do what they do so well and give us a venue that is modern and fresh in the end we will grow to love it. Just look around.....how many buildings have been done poorly? I can't think of any. Their style and design is second to none as proven with the rec centers. I think change is hard but give it time and we will appreciate it.

I am a loss for words when I hear some say KB is dated. For gosh sakes it is designed to be a 1800's dance hall. It will be a long time before we see such beautiful oak wood railings, etc again. Is Sumter Landing dated because it has been designed to be similar to Key West ???

[dotti105]

Tonight (Friday) I took my 3 daughters and 2 of our teen granddaughters for a "Girls Nite Out" at Katie Belle's. We couldn't think of a better place for a GNO.

We have lived here almost a year now and hubby and I have been once before, during our LifeStyle visit. Katie Belle's and The Cattle Barron both had mediocre food when we visited then and I must say they did tonight too. We would never take friends there for that reason.

Tonight we had a great night of dancing and people watching and enjoyed "Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs". Katie Belle's is charming, but is dusty, dated and can benefit from a facelift.

I realize some people love this place, but to us it is just ok. So many other great dining options. I guess it's "cool" to have a member's only club. But it would be nice to have one that is clean, fresh, upgraded with a better menu.

I am looking forward to the new Katie Belle's! Maybe it will be a place we would go more than once a year!

[aln]

I am a loss for words when I hear some say KB is dated. For gosh sakes it is designed to be a 1800's dance hall. It will be a long time before we see such beautiful oak wood railings, etc again. Is Sumter Landing dated because it has been designed to be similar to Key West ???

I agree that KB's is supposed to look 1800-ish but it should look like it hasn't been updated since 1800. As fr the Oak railings - most of what they do is inhibit the view of any of the shows on stage. If you sit anywhere behind the posts the view is less than clear.

I wonder if people would be so upset if Chico's decided to sell men's clothing? or maybe Kilwins became a salad bar!

I applaud the change at Katie Belle's
:BigApplause:

[tuccillo]

The thing I love about Katie Belle's is the high ceiling and openess. The food is OK but we don't go there looking for the best food in town. We have seen Uncle Bob's Rock Shop at Katie Belle's numerous times and it is just a great venue for live music. I fear that moving it upstairs, with a lower ceiling, will not be as good.

Tonight (Friday) I took my 3 daughters and 2 of our teen granddaughters for a "Girls Nite Out" at Katie Belle's. We couldn't think of a better place for a GNO.

We have lived here almost a year now and hubby and I have been once before, during our LifeStyle visit. Katie Belle's and The Cattle Barron both had mediocre food when we visited then and I must say they did tonight too. We would never take friends there for that reason.

Tonight we had a great night of dancing and people watching and enjoyed "Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs". Katie Belle's is charming, but is dusty, dated and can benefit from a facelift.

I realize some people love this place, but to us it is just ok. So many other great dining options. I guess it's "cool" to have a member's only club. But it would be nice to have one that is clean, fresh, upgraded with a better menu.

I am looking forward to the new Katie Belle's! Maybe it will be a place we would go more than once a year!

[kilowatt]

I am a loss for words when I hear some say KB is dated. For gosh sakes it is designed to be a 1800's dance hall. It will be a long time before we see such beautiful oak wood railings, etc again. Is Sumter Landing dated because it has been designed to be similar to Key West ???

You are absolutely right. It is designed to be an 1800`s dance hall. We were there last night and had another great time with Cactus Jack and the Cadillacs. They were gracious enough to bring all the employees on stage and share singing a Beatles song with them. They received much applause and sadly the tears were flowing from many of the employees eyes. Besides ruining this beautiful, iconic place, there will be many people looking for jobs. It`s always about the money for our "Villages Leaders".

[Polar Bear]

...It`s always about the money for our "Villages Leaders".

Oh for crying out loud. Doesn't that argument grow old after a while? If it wasn't for the pursuit of a profit, The Villages wouldn't exist at all...nor would much else in this grand old U.S. of A..

[Bonny]

Oh for crying out loud. Doesn't that argument grow old after a while? If it wasn't for the pursuit of a profit, The Villages wouldn't exist at all...nor would much else in this grand old U.S. of A..
I agree. I wonder what people would do if it was their money ! LOL :22yikes:

[gatherer47]

Polar Bear is exactly correct!

[Warren Kiefer]

Oh for crying out loud. Doesn't that argument grow old after a while? If it wasn't for the pursuit of a profit, The Villages wouldn't exist at all...nor would much else in this grand old U.S. of A..

Only someone who is not aware of the vision of Harold Schwartz would use such words. Harold was not a money hungry person, he considered Villagers to be his family and in that vain he wanted all of us to share in the wealth. let me write out the numbers that were listed as the personal wealth of Gary Morse. 1.2,000,000,000. Same thing as 12 thousand millionaires. This is not what m
Mr. Swartz invisioned.

[Polar Bear]

Only someone who is not aware of the vision of Harold Schwartz would use such words. Harold was not a money hungry person, he considered Villagers to be his family and in that vain he wanted all of us to share in the wealth. let me write out the numbers that were listed as the personal wealth of Gary Morse. 1.2,000,000,000. Same thing as 12 thousand millionaires. This is not what m

Mr. Swartz invisioned.

I seriously doubt Mr. Swartz would have any problem with those numbers, as long as the quality and integrity of TV development has been maintained.
(Besides, how would it affect you if it was 12 million millionaires?!?)

[mulligan]

I don't see what the problem is with a company being good enough at what they do to make that kind of money.

[Mleeja]

So, do you want him to give it back? I don't care who the businessman might be, they will not support a business model that is a loser. That is what makes them successful. If Katie Belles is not profitable then it is time for a change.

Would the folks wanting to keep Katie Belles the same as it is now be willing to pay a $10 cover charge per person to keep it open? I bet we would be hearing the same arguements from the same folks. Just another reason to b!tch about the developer.

[2BNTV]

It's called free enterprise and I for one am glad the developer has not taken his bat and ball and gone home. Many people lament what is going to happen to TV if the developer leaves.

I personally think the Morse family is here to stay for the forseeable future. I know I will be long gone.

All people will not like some changes made, but the developer has done a lot of things right. IMHO

[Shimpy]

They simply found a way to add more square feet ($) of commercial space without building a new building. Just add a ceiling over the dance floor and now you have Katie Bells upstairs and they can have several more stores downstairs. I'm sure they are aware of the 70% + of those surveyed (I saw it somewhere here) who were against this but also know that after a year or so it will all blow over and They will be ahead in the long run.

[Jdmiata]

They simply found a way to add more square feet ($) of commercial space without building a new building. Just add a ceiling over the dance floor and now you have Katie Bells upstairs and they can have several more stores downstairs. I'm sure they are aware of the 70% + of those surveyed (I saw it somewhere here) who were against this but also know that after a year or so it will all blow over and They will be ahead in the long run.

Agree.
It's all about the $$$$$

[graciegirl]

Agree.
It's all about the $$$$$


The Morses aren't anybody's mother. And no one should expect them to be. However, good business stratagy keeps this place blowin' and goin' and protects OUR property investment.

Aren't you glad you didn't buy somewhere else???????????????????

[DougB]

I'm glad I bought a second home here, but I don't agree with the renovation of a unigue dance hall like Katie Belle's to make room for more commercial property because it's a good business decision to make more money. What's next? Demo the squares and add shops?

[Barefoot]

I don't see what the problem is with a company being good enough at what they do to make that kind of money.

Exactly, why should we begrudge the money made by a brilliant visionary thinker?
Like many people, I hate to see KBs changed, but the Developer has every right to make changes.
And based on past performance, it will be a first-class act.

[Bonny]

Exactly, why should we begrudge the money made by a brilliant visionary thinker?
Like many people, I hate to see KBs changed, but the Developer has every right to make changes.
And based on past performance, it will be a first-class act.
Absolutely ! :thumbup:

[DougB]

Past performance was the vision of Gary Morse. Jury is still out on Mark and the others.

[MoeVonB61]

THE ONLY THING IN LIFE THAT'S CERTAIN IS CHANGE.....I am sure the re-design will be outstanding and the new Katie Belles beautiful....Spanish Springs needs more retail shops anyway........

[Cisco Kid]

Maybe on this holy day, with all the worship of the Harold . He will rise
and heal TV.
LET US PRAY.

[Mleeja]

Maybe on this holy day, with all the worship of the Harold . He will rise
and heal TV.
LET US PRAY.

You're going to he!! for that one.....:22yikes:

[Cisco Kid]

You're going to he!! for that one.....:22yikes:
Nope
I am going to church today. I will be forgiven.
Maybe in the eyes of the followers of Harold.

The 10 commandments is on today.
You can watch Harold part lake sumter so they can build the bridge on dry land.

[Johnd]

The folks that invest the money and cover the losses have the right to seek any solution without my approval. I am one of the large majority who went there 3 times a year with visitors or just because. I'm very sorry to lose this venue in it's present form but I don't think it fair to castigate others for not indefinitely subsidizing my indifferent patronage. In fact, I thank them for their past efforts on my behalf.

[Bonny]

The folks that invest the money and cover the losses have the right to seek any solution without my approval. I am one of the large majority who went there 3 times a year with visitors or just because. I'm very sorry to lose this venue in it's present form but I don't think it fair to castigate others for not indefinitely subsidizing my indifferent patronage. In fact, I thank them for their past efforts on my behalf.
:BigApplause:

[brandy]

I agree that the whole two floors needed to be renovated I dont agree that we need more shops. If this has been in planning for a while why wasnt it in the annual survey? I have never been laid off but can only imagine how it feels that the loyalty of some of the people who have been there a long time is disregarded to up the $$$. The changes are linked to The Sharon why ? Is it parking or just a reluctance to keep anything different North of 466

[Allegiance]

It was kept a big secret until April 1st for very obvious reasons. Damage control. People have a right do protest and others have a right to free enterprise, often the two clash. I will light a candle today and include in my prayers that Mark and his sisters read this and keep Katie Belle as a two story villagers club, in his dad's honor and for all those poor folk in the poor original villages.

[Barefoot]

It was kept a big secret until April 1st for very obvious reasons.

I apologize if this has been mentioned, I haven't read all 145 posts.
If you wish to make a comment about the changes to Katie Belles,
you can add a comment on your Survey.
You have until midnight tonight before the Survey process closes, additional comments can be added until that time.

[Allegiance]

Silly question. Was this survey mailed?

[Bonny]

It was kept a big secret until April 1st for very obvious reasons. Damage control. People have a right do protest and others have a right to free enterprise, often the two clash. I will light a candle today and include in my prayers that Mark and his sisters read this and keep Katie Belle as a two story villagers club, in his dad's honor and for all those poor folk in the poor original villages.
I would venture to say this has been in the planning stages for quite some time with Dad very much involved in that decision and the planning.

[Allegiance]

Imagine how many people were sworn to secrecy.

[Barefoot]

Silly question. Was this survey mailed?

Anyone can make changes or additions to their online survey at any time until midnight tonight, April 5.

[Bonny]

Imagine how many people were sworn to secrecy.
Absolutely. :D

[Allegiance]

Is there a link for the survey?

[Mikeod]

Imagine how many people were sworn to secrecy.
This is no different from how the family normally operates. I don't see a conspiracy with the timing. Much planning goes on behind the scenes, and there is no announcement until the plans are finalized and approved. On one hand, it leads to a lot of speculation and wild, at times, rumors. On the other hand, we never have to see our hopes dashed when a plan is announced and then doesn't come to fruition. I once visited Golf Administration and was seen in a room that had a map of all the golf courses to be constructed south of 466A. I started to take a photo with my cell phone and was told firmly that I could not.

I think it is telling that Katie Belle's has never been duplicated at Lake Sumter or Brownwood. If it was a successful residents' club, I think we would have a similar club in another town square, especially as the community expands southward. The fact that we don't, tells me it was a losing proposition. Perhaps we should be satisfied that it is not closing entirely. Perhaps the income from the retail/commercial space created is the saving grace for Katie Belle's to survive.

[Bonny]

This is no different from how the family normally operates. I don't see a conspiracy with the timing. Much planning goes on behind the scenes, and there is no announcement until the plans are finalized and approved. On one hand, it leads to a lot of speculation and wild, at times, rumors. On the other hand, we never have to see our hopes dashed when a plan is announced and then doesn't come to fruition. I once visited Golf Administration and was seen in a room that had a map of all the golf courses to be constructed south of 466A. I started to take a photo with my cell phone and was told firmly that I could not.

I think it is telling that Katie Belle's has never been duplicated at Lake Sumter or Brownwood. If it was a successful residents' club, I think we would have a similar club in another town square, especially as the community expands southward. The fact that we don't, tells me it was a losing proposition. Perhaps we should be satisfied that it is not closing entirely. Perhaps the income from the retail/commercial space created is the saving grace for Katie Belle's to survive.
Well spoken !! :thumbup:

[newguyintv]

Well spoken !! :thumbup:

Any time I've ever been there, which is as seldom as possible, there are many signs that lots of their clientele are NOT "Residents". I don't know who they are but you need to be blind not to notice they are "non residents".

[Allegiance]

I found the survey, it's to late for me as I cant get access to my access code before midnight, but for others the link is Survey Login (http://www.thevillages.net/survey/Login.aspx?SurveyID=m6KH984)

Express your feelings about Katie Belles etc. Before this Katie Belle downsizing plan, I did not have anything to complain about.

[BigbirdPhila]

There is one unique place to dine & dance in the Villages and it's being destroyed. People take visiting friends there to show off the community. Some of those visitors buy at the Villages partially because of seeing KB's. It's part of the tour Village real estate agents give to prospective buyers. There are golf courses, rec centers, restaurants, and bars in other retirement communities. But there is only one two-story dance hall, restaurant, and entertainment center that looks like it's something from the set of Gunsmoke. And it's in the Villages.

Management is taking something unique and turning it into a commodity. People can go to multiple places in the Villages for a reasonable quality meal, listen to free music, and dance on a small dance floor. There will be nothing "special" about the new KB's. It will be a commodity. What will be the point of even keeping it "residents only" any more?

Commodities don't increase property values. Unique venues increase the value of a community. It would be far cheaper & less risky to experiment first with opening KB's to the public to increase profitability. And/or charge a cover charge. BB King's in Orlando charges a cover charge just to enter -- whether or not you buy anything to eat. And its decor is mundane compared to KB's.

There is a "goodwill" value to KB's that should be added to its bottom line each year to determine its real value to the corporation & the community. The same technique used by accountants to assess the value of a business beyond its balance sheet. The goal should be to maximize the total value of the Villages corporate & private community, not individual components. Some components will contribute more, some less, to the overall value. Much like "loss leaders" are used in retail stores to draw in the customer who will then spend money on other items, increasing the store's total profit. Will another "commodity" restaurant increase the total value of the community more than a refurbished unique venue?

I say this as someone who meets friends at KB's two or three times a month for dining and dancing. Either lunch or dinner, or both. I drive 110 miles and 2 1/2 hours (round trip) to do it. Because KB's is unique. I won't do that for the "new" KB's. I will be able to have that same experience much closer to home.

[DougB]

Imagine how many people were sworn to secrecy.

Wasn't too much of a secret. We heard about it two months ago.

[Allegiance]

BigbirdPhila, perfectly stated. You should have been a writer.

[JoMar]

There is one unique place to dine & dance in the Villages and it's being destroyed. People take visiting friends there to show off the community. Some of those visitors buy at the Villages partially because of seeing KB's. It's part of the tour Village real estate agents give to prospective buyers. There are golf courses, rec centers, restaurants, and bars in other retirement communities. But there is only one two-story dance hall, restaurant, and entertainment center that looks like it's something from the set of Gunsmoke. And it's in the Villages.

Management is taking something unique and turning it into a commodity. People can go to multiple places in the Villages for a reasonable quality meal, listen to free music, and dance on a small dance floor. There will be nothing "special" about the new KB's. It will be a commodity. What will be the point of even keeping it "residents only" any more?

Commodities don't increase property values. Unique venues increase the value of a community. It would be far cheaper & less risky to experiment first with opening KB's to the public to increase profitability. And/or charge a cover charge. BB King's in Orlando charges a cover charge just to enter -- whether or not you buy anything to eat. And its decor is mundane compared to KB's.

There is a "goodwill" value to KB's that should be added to its bottom line each year to determine its real value to the corporation & the community. The same technique used by accountants to assess the value of a business beyond its balance sheet. The goal should be to maximize the total value of the Villages corporate & private community, not individual components. Some components will contribute more, some less, to the overall value. Much like "loss leaders" are used in retail stores to draw in the customer who will then spend money on other items, increasing the store's total profit. Will another "commodity" restaurant increase the total value of the community more than a refurbished unique venue?

I say this as someone who meets friends at KB's two or three times a month for dining and dancing. Either lunch or dinner, or both. I drive 110 miles and 2 1/2 hours (round trip) to do it. Because KB's is unique. I won't do that for the "new" KB's. I will be able to have that same experience much closer to home.

Another parking space has now become available.

[dbussone]

Another parking space has now become available.


Maybe more depending on where the friends are from.

[Mleeja]

I say this as someone who meets friends at KB's two or three times a month for dining and dancing. Either lunch or dinner, or both. I drive 110 miles and 2 1/2 hours (round trip) to do it. Because KB's is unique. I won't do that for the "new" KB's. I will be able to have that same experience much closer to home.

I have a question? Someone help me out! If Katies Belles is a "residents only club" how is poster driving 110 miles to go to KBs? Are they a non-resident owner? Someone going as a guest of their Villager friend? This goes back to my theory of non-residents posting on this site trashing The Villages and/or the developers. I would like to see folks have thier Village listed in the upper right or state thier Village. BTW, mine is Santiago.

[stroglass]

As a really new resident I have enjoyed KB"s .I think it sad but it all come down to money .Now that he Sharon will open they want people to spend entertainment dollars there ,that's just my thought .the cost of a show @KB is small compared to what I am seeing @ the sharon .

[DougB]

Another parking space has now become available.

I won't have to worry about parking at the square. I bought a parking spot from a guy on Craig's List right in front of Dunkin' Donuts!

[kstew43]

I have a question? Someone help me out! If Katies Belles is a "residents only club" how is poster driving 110 miles to go to KBs? Are they a non-resident owner? Someone going as a guest of their Villager friend? This goes back to my theory of non-residents posting on this site trashing The Villages and/or the developers. I would like to see folks have thier Village listed in the upper right or state thier Village. BTW, mine is Santiago.

people do meet people at Katie Bells.......Someone in the party has to have the appropriate credentials.

We love it in the summer months when its just too dang hot to dance in the squares. It nice to be in the a/c in July and August, have dinner, drink a little and dance.

As far as recognizing your village, I think with some of the hostility on this site, I would not be in favor of that. Also some TOTV's are non residents, renters, landlords and the such. But security would be number 1.

Thats my opinion anyway, 'Im in favor of a cover charge that can be refunded if you spend that amount on food and drinks....

[Bonny]

Any time I've ever been there, which is as seldom as possible, there are many signs that lots of their clientele are NOT "Residents". I don't know who they are but you need to be blind not to notice they are "non residents".
Not necessarily true. I used to go 3 -4 nights a week and rarely saw a non Villager. When I did, they were with Villager friends.

[Bonny]

There is one unique place to dine & dance in the Villages and it's being destroyed. People take visiting friends there to show off the community. Some of those visitors buy at the Villages partially because of seeing KB's. It's part of the tour Village real estate agents give to prospective buyers. There are golf courses, rec centers, restaurants, and bars in other retirement communities. But there is only one two-story dance hall, restaurant, and entertainment center that looks like it's something from the set of Gunsmoke. And it's in the Villages.

Management is taking something unique and turning it into a commodity. People can go to multiple places in the Villages for a reasonable quality meal, listen to free music, and dance on a small dance floor. There will be nothing "special" about the new KB's. It will be a commodity. What will be the point of even keeping it "residents only" any more?

Commodities don't increase property values. Unique venues increase the value of a community. It would be far cheaper & less risky to experiment first with opening KB's to the public to increase profitability. And/or charge a cover charge. BB King's in Orlando charges a cover charge just to enter -- whether or not you buy anything to eat. And its decor is mundane compared to KB's.

There is a "goodwill" value to KB's that should be added to its bottom line each year to determine its real value to the corporation & the community. The same technique used by accountants to assess the value of a business beyond its balance sheet. The goal should be to maximize the total value of the Villages corporate & private community, not individual components. Some components will contribute more, some less, to the overall value. Much like "loss leaders" are used in retail stores to draw in the customer who will then spend money on other items, increasing the store's total profit. Will another "commodity" restaurant increase the total value of the community more than a refurbished unique venue?

I say this as someone who meets friends at KB's two or three times a month for dining and dancing. Either lunch or dinner, or both. I drive 110 miles and 2 1/2 hours (round trip) to do it. Because KB's is unique. I won't do that for the "new" KB's. I will be able to have that same experience much closer to home.
We have been here 15 years. I doubt very much if Katie Belles/Cattle Baron is adding any value to the community or our property and we love that place.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

people do meet people at Katie Bells.......Someone in the party has to have the appropriate credentials.

We love it in the summer months when its just too dang hot to dance in the squares. It nice to be in the a/c in July and August, have dinner, drink a little and dance.

As far as recognizing your village, I think with some of the hostility on this site, I would not be in favor of that. Also some TOTV's are non residents, renters, landlords and the such. But security would be number 1.

Thats my opinion anyway, 'Im in favor of a cover charge that can be refunded if you spend that amount on food and drinks....

I agree with you. I have yet to spend under $20 any time I go and would not mind a cover charge as an entrance fee.
They could charge $10 at the door per person and give you a credit at the bar or at the dining room.
There have been many times I seen people come in and dance or set at the bar for several hours and have a water or nurse a drink and not spend very much.

[Bonny]

I agree with you. I have yet to spend under $20 any time I go and would not mind a cover charge as an entrance fee.
They could charge $10 at the door per person and give you a credit at the bar or at the dining room.
There have been many times I seen people come in and dance or set at the bar for several hours and have a water or nurse a drink and not spend very much.
Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

I remember that also Bonny. People think that it is one of the free entertainment perks for living in the villages. It is free as long as they return any cover charge in the form of food or drinks. I think the ones who complain the most are those that take up seats and not spend much.
I used to be the Post Commander of a V.F.W. and when we changed the price of a mug of beer from .75 cents to $1 you would have thought the canteen patrons were being murdered!
We also owned a 50 seat café and was open for breakfast lunch and dinner. When people came in and sat for over an hour having coffee and taking up space.....................well you get the picture.
I like Katie Belles as it is but look forward to a change as well.

[Challenger]

I remember that also Bonny. People think that it is one of the free entertainment perks for living in the villages. It is free as long as they return any cover charge in the form of food or drinks. I think the ones who complain the most are those that take up seats and not spend much.
I used to be the Post Commander of a V.F.W. and when we changed the price of a mug of beer from .75 cents to $1 you would have thought the canteen patrons were being murdered!
We also owned a 50 seat café and was open for breakfast lunch and dinner. When people came in and sat for over an hour having coffee and taking up space.....................well you get the picture.
I like Katie Belles as it is but look forward to a change as well.

There is a point at which raising the price of a product by X results in reduced overall revenue(assuming all other factors remain the same) Kind of a retail Law of Diminishing Returns.
It seems to me that that point is very small in the Villages

I doubt that TOTV would survive if the charge went from $0 to $1 per month.

Katie Belles is dead---- Long Live Katie Belles!!

[tuccillo]

They do have a cover charge of sorts: a $3/person reservation charge to get a guaranteed table. We have gladly paid that for popular events.


Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

[BigbirdPhila]

We have been here 15 years. I doubt very much if Katie Belles/Cattle Baron is adding any value to the community or our property and we love that place.

There is a reason the sales reps make a point to show KB's to prospective buyers. Their research must have shown that doing so helps improve the demand for the Villages' product -- housing.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Only someone who is not aware of the vision of Harold Schwartz would use such words. Harold was not a money hungry person, he considered Villagers to be his family and in that vain he wanted all of us to share in the wealth. let me write out the numbers that were listed as the personal wealth of Gary Morse. 1.2,000,000,000. Same thing as 12 thousand millionaires. This is not what m
Mr. Swartz invisioned.

Ok.... here we go again - Gary Morse is successful to the tune of about $1.2 billion and people are jealous. If I had his money, I would do whatever it takes to keep this place as beautiful as it is and not lose money, i.e. Katie Belle's, to keep it that way. There are people in TV that have a lot more acquired wealth and money than I do and I'm not jealous; I admire them for having done it. Get over the fact he was brilliant enough to make/inherit his wealth and knows how to keep it. Katie Belle's, as you know it, is as dead as most people's dreams of becoming millionaires or even breaking 100 for 18 holes.

[Bonny]

There is a reason the sales reps make a point to show KB's to prospective buyers. Their research must have shown that doing so helps improve the demand for the Villages' product -- housing.
Absolutely. We love Katie Belles. We thought it was so unique & cool but it wasn't a big reason for buying here. At the time it was even cooler because that was the only square.

[Bonny]

They do have a cover charge of sorts: a $3/person reservation charge to get a guaranteed table. We have gladly paid that for popular events.
They also have to pay the entertainers.

[dillywho]

It's all about the money to be made......

Frankly, I do not know of anyone that is not in business to make money. That's why it is called "business".

[blue72]

I won't have to worry about parking at the square. I bought a parking spot from a guy on Craig's List right in front of Dunkin' Donuts!

MY HERO!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you get a two fer on the spot?

[dillywho]

Past performance was the vision of Gary Morse. Jury is still out on Mark and the others.

I can remember when Gary Morse was the "bad guy" because he didn't do things like Harold Swartz. Now that he is gone, give them a break, please. None of them built this place so that everyone could have everything for free or cater to all the various whims of those coming here or those who have been here for many, many years. This is exactly what makes our The Villages so unique. To quote one of the engineers at the plant from which we retired, "This is not Burger King, and 'No', you cannot have it your way."

[sunnyatlast]

Sounds good, but I remember years ago when they first tried a $2.00 cover charge. You would have thought the world was coming to an end !!! No one wanted to pay $2.00. Great entertainment,but no one wanted to pay a penny for it. It did eventually evolve into a $5.00 charge, however if you spent $5.00 it went towards the bill. Even that was deemed as the Villages being greedy. Believe me when I say they tried everything imaginable to make it profitable.
People now say they should have raised the prices. That was tried and the Villages was accused of trying to rip everyone off because they raised some of the prices $1.00.

Further proof that there are large numbers of people here who have never worked in a private-sector enterprise in which everyone has to focus on generating enough revenue to pay the bills of running the place, to at least break even.

I think a lot of people are absolutely clueless about the costs of running a place like Katie Belle's, and then they whine about low wages for workers. I swear some have no concept of an Income-Expense Worksheet!

Without a cover charge and with low spending, obviously TV has been subsidizing the operation to keep it afloat. At best, the revamp will bring it to break-even.

Some who complain and vilify business owners ought to put their money where their mouth is and start a business and try bringing in enough to pay its bills. But that would be too much work and personal sacrifice for those who want only an 8-5, Monday thru Friday, 40-hour work week, employer-paid cadillac health insurance premiums, and fully vested pension at age 55.

[Bonny]

Further proof that there are large numbers of people here who have never worked in a private-sector enterprise in which everyone has to focus on generating enough revenue to pay the bills of running the place, to at least break even.

I think a lot of people are absolutely clueless about the costs of running a place like Katie Belle's, and then they whine about low wages for workers. I swear some have no concept of an Income-Expense Worksheet!

Without a cover charge and with low spending, obviously TV has been subsidizing the operation to keep it afloat. At best, the revamp will bring it to break-even.

Some who complain and vilify business owners ought to put their money where their mouth is and start a business and try bringing in enough to pay its bills. But that would be too much work and personal sacrifice for those who want only an 8-5, Monday thru Friday 40-hour work week and fully vested pension at age 55.
I think the complainers should buy Katie Belles and put their money into it and see how long that would last !! :thumbup:

[kcrazorbackfan]

I can remember when Gary Morse was the "bad guy" because he didn't do things like Harold Swartz. Now that he is gone, give them a break, please. None of them built this place so that everyone could have everything for free or cater to all the various whims of those coming here or those who have been here for many, many years. This is exactly what makes our The Villages so unique. To quote one of the engineers at the plant from which we retired, "This is not Burger King, and 'No', you cannot have it your way."

:agree: :BigApplause:

[Barefoot]

I can remember when Gary Morse was the "bad guy" because he didn't do things like Harold Swartz. Now that he is gone, give them a break, please. None of them built this place so that everyone could have everything for free or cater to all the various whims of those coming here or those who have been here for many, many years. This is exactly what makes our The Villages so unique. To quote one of the engineers at the plant from which we retired, "This is not Burger King, and 'No', you cannot have it your way."

:thumbup: Great post Dillywho.

[dillywho]

It certainly was presented as an Amenity to those buying near it. Giving them a chance when they can not undo the renovation is wrong. They are taking away more than 50% of the square feet and 80% of the cubic feet, and 100% of the atmosphere.

These young billionaires should look at the bigger picture. Dont listen to the Accountants all the time. You three appeared very sincere in "The Sharon" presentation, make your parents proud. :thumbup:

How many people on here remember when the space occupied by Chico's now was a part of Katie Belle's? It was called Delmonico's Steak House. This same furor arose when that went away. If I remember correctly, Cattle Baron came into being and was private....you had to be a member.

Also, the reasoning behind eventually making KB private, as well, was because the residents could not get in because it was being patronized so heavily by people from surrounding areas. We came here when you had to go to Ocala or Leesburg for many, many things. SS was the only game...there was no LSL even, much less Brownwood.

The point is, there have been many changes over the years, and there will be many more in the future. If the Morses go away, so will this community's uniqueness. That's how I 'envision' it.

[sunnyatlast]

How many people on here remember when the space occupied by Chico's now was a part of Katie Belle's? It was called Delmonico's Steak House. This same furor arose when that went away. If I remember correctly, Cattle Baron came into being and was private....you had to be a member.

Also, the reasoning behind eventually making KB private, as well, was because the residents could not get in because it was being patronized so heavily by people from surrounding areas. We came here when you had to go to Ocala or Leesburg for many, many things. SS was the only game...there was no LSL even, much less Brownwood.

The point is, there have been many changes over the years, and there will be many more in the future. If the Morses go away, so will this community's uniqueness. That's how I 'envision' it.

Yes!!

:BigApplause: :BigApplause: :BigApplause:

[Bonny]

How many people on here remember when the space occupied by Chico's now was a part of Katie Belle's? It was called Delmonico's Steak House. This same furor arose when that went away. If I remember correctly, Cattle Baron came into being and was private....you had to be a member.

Also, the reasoning behind eventually making KB private, as well, was because the residents could not get in because it was being patronized so heavily by people from surrounding areas. We came here when you had to go to Ocala or Leesburg for many, many things. SS was the only game...there was no LSL even, much less Brownwood.

The point is, there have been many changes over the years, and there will be many more in the future. If the Morses go away, so will this community's uniqueness. That's how I 'envision' it.
They used to do the salad wheel and bring it to your table. When they stopped the salad wheel (of course everyone complained) the salad bar was set up in the part where Chicos is. And those poor servers in those huge old time dresses. LOL

[ALR5ALR]

to the folks that are concerned about losing an amenity, you lost it years ago when they let in non-residents (not meaning residents family or friends who come to visit ).....for the folks with the walker concern there is an elevator.

[Mleeja]

I can't believe this topic has reached 20 pages! What more can be said???

[DougB]

MY HERO!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you get a two fer on the spot?

No problem, I'll happily share with you. You will know the spot. I put up orange cones and roped it off.

[Cisco Kid]

I can remember when Gary Morse was the "bad guy" because he didn't do things like Harold Swartz. Now that he is gone, give them a break, please. None of them built this place so that everyone could have everything for free or cater to all the various whims of those coming here or those who have been here for many, many years. This is exactly what makes our The Villages so unique. To quote one of the engineers at the plant from which we retired, "This is not Burger King, and 'No', you cannot have it your way."

By the time we get around to hating Gary's grandkids the population will be over million :D

[BigbirdPhila]

I can't believe this topic has reached 20 pages! What more can be said???

Perhaps people can elaborate on what will draw them to the new KB's instead of the old KB's. Or, more importantly, what will draw them to the new KB's instead of the many other generic restaurants around the rest of the Villages and the surrounding area.

For me, it will be based on convenience. Minimize driving and parking hassles. It looks like there will be nothing to draw me specifically to the new KB's.

[graciegirl]

From all the downer posts, I assume the sky is falling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

I hope if by some remote chance, that everything works out well, that all the doom and gloom folks come back and mention it.

[Bizdoc]

Perhaps people can elaborate on what will draw them to the new KB's instead of the old KB's. Or, more importantly, what will draw them to the new KB's instead of the many other generic restaurants around the rest of the Villages and the surrounding area.

For me, it will be based on convenience. Minimize driving and parking hassles. It looks like there will be nothing to draw me specifically to the new KB's.

To help put things in perspective, how many of the "I Love Katie Belle" folks would drive to Brownwood if it were located there? Many of us that live in the southern part of TV are not all that wild about driving to SS just for an OK, but not great dinner. "Private Club?" thanks, but no thanks. Too many other good choices in the area (broadly cast to include Mt Dora, Ocala, etc.)

[simpkinp]

Katie Belle's has an odd charm, not exactly good food, but charm. I hope they one has charm as well. The Cattle Baron went downhill awhile ago and is not palatable, so no loss there. The country clubs below 466A are truly generic. Some slightly different decor but you don't know which one you are in as the menus are so similar. That was predictable since they are owned by the same person. Above 466 things aren't so cookie cutter. Love Lopez, the Oasis pool bar, Glenview C C. Still, the Villages restaurants arei better than most and the prices are reasonable. Go outside TV and you get sticker shock. I am thankful for what we have.

[Mleeja]

To help put things in perspective, how many of the "I Love Katie Belle" folks would drive to Brownwood if it were located there? Many of us that live in the southern part of TV are not all that wild about driving to SS just for an OK, but not great dinner. "Private Club?" thanks, but no thanks. Too many other good choices in the area (broadly cast to include Mt Dora, Ocala, etc.)

Thanks, I made a similar point about 10 pages ago. This is just not big of an issue for those south of 466, or LSL. However, since SS is the closest town square to me, I am looking forward to the new and improved Katie Belles!:mmmm:

Let's move on. I am sure there are other topics to rail about! :posting:

[tuccillo]

I don't go to Kaitie Belle's for the food. I go for the entertainment.

To help put things in perspective, how many of the "I Love Katie Belle" folks would drive to Brownwood if it were located there? Many of us that live in the southern part of TV are not all that wild about driving to SS just for an OK, but not great dinner. "Private Club?" thanks, but no thanks. Too many other good choices in the area (broadly cast to include Mt Dora, Ocala, etc.)

[DougB]

To help put things in perspective, how many of the "I Love Katie Belle" folks would drive to Brownwood if it were located there? Many of us that live in the southern part of TV are not all that wild about driving to SS just for an OK, but not great dinner. "Private Club?" thanks, but no thanks. Too many other good choices in the area (broadly cast to include Mt Dora, Ocala, etc.)

Too far to drive to SS, but you would drive to Ocala or Mt. Dora?

[gigim112]

I feel bad for the employees that will be out of work till fall while all this is taking place.

I too feel bad for all the employees that have worked there for a number of years and will not get any severance pay. Was there last Wednesday at the CBC bar upstairs and it was quite dead in there I must admit even though Uncle Bob's Rock Shop was playing downstairs. The bartender said they all heard on that day April 1st, that the place will be closing on May 1st for the renovations. The bartender has been working upstairs for 11 years & said will lose all those years & would have to reapply for the same position if available....that really SUCKS!!!! I really like the atmosphere of the whole place & will be quite surprised on how the acoustics will be when this new place comes to fruition. I hope they keep the stained glass above the dance floor that really adds character to the place but if it has to go then so be it.

And will definitely miss the outside overlooking the square to hear the music, too.

[gigim112]

Having to climb a flight of stairs is not a great idea if you're trying to attract those in our age group. I know it has kept me and mine from eating at the Cattle Baron. One of the great attractions of moving here was getting away from all that stair climbing.

There is an elevator that you can use to go to the 2nd floor!!!!

[Chi-Town]

Katie Belle's was part of the Lifestyle Preview and was definitely a positive factor in making a decision to move here. Plus the Spanish Springs setting is still my favorite to take visitors for a Villages wow moment (coming in from 441).

[gigim112]

You got that right for sure about Mr. Midnight!!!!!

[BigbirdPhila]

Katie Belle's was part of the Lifestyle Preview and was definitely a positive factor in making a decision to move here. Plus the Spanish Springs setting is still my favorite to take visitors for a Villages wow moment (coming in from 441).

As recently as two weeks ago, prospective buyers were being told (and shown) the same thing. That what makes the closing of KB's different from the closing of some other restaurant in the community. It's a community icon and focal point.

The new KB's will share the same name but definitely not have the "wow factor" of the old one. A second floor, single-story restaurant with a stage and a small (or possibly non-existent) dance floor. A restaurant with free music and cramped dancing. How many other resturants in the Villages offer the same thing? And they're on the first floor and have open air decks. I wonder if the new KB's will be part of future Lifestyle Previews. I doubt it.

[graciegirl]

As recently as two weeks ago, prospective buyers were being told (and shown) the same thing. That what makes the closing of KB's different from the closing of some other restaurant in the community. It's a community icon and focal point.

The new KB's will share the same name but definitely not have the "wow factor" of the old one. A second floor, single-story restaurant with a stage and a small (or possibly non-existent) dance floor. A restaurant with free music and cramped dancing. How many other resturants in the Villages offer the same thing? And they're on the first floor and have open air decks. I wonder if the new KB's will be part of future Lifestyle Previews. I doubt it.


I don't think they are giving away any freebies anymore and haven't for a couple of years.

[graciegirl]

Any time I've ever been there, which is as seldom as possible, there are many signs that lots of their clientele are NOT "Residents". I don't know who they are but you need to be blind not to notice they are "non residents".


You mean the ho-ho's ?

[hulahips]

Very disappointed. If anything they need Another Katie bealls in brown wood with the amt of people moving in. This was always talked about on the lifestyle tour and residents loved the dance hall saloon. How sad to take away what the residents loved

[dadspet]

For fear of going off the deep end but hopping not to. chilout Since we seem to have a proliferation of acute economist commenting on this thread I wonder if they couldn't also shed some light on the billions of dollars being spent over 40 years on the CERN's Large Hadron collider to verify the existence of the Higgs particle ( or Higgs boson ) in the the standard model. I must admit to me it doesn't seem to be cost justify but yet Europe keeps putting more money into it. They must know something I don't - I know, hard to believe ). I wonder if the economists are asking the people in Europe to buy CERN and run it profitable.


Oh, Did I mention the only other thing I don't understand is the planned renovation of the beautiful / unique Kati Belle's. And to be honest this actually bothers me a lot more then the billions being spent by CERN finding the Higgs boson.

While we re at it. It also seems like the definition of renovation needs to be changed in Wikipedia to add "or making the structure most cost effective".
Currently it reads > Renovation (also called remodeling) is the process of "improving" a "broken", "damaged", or "outdated" structure.


Now again back to my taxes and Mutual Fund / stock cost basis (with reinvestment of capital gains and dividends > transferred from broker to broker), which I could also use some help understanding > forget that too I'll just take a muddled old fashion with Southern Comfort or perhaps a raspberry martini (no Gray Goose, My wife said that was too expensive and not cost justified with Chambord Black Raspberry in it > come to think of it, I wonder if it was her making the posts that Kati Belle's had to be cost justified?).

Life is too short to take serious.

Higgs boson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson)

[Mleeja]

i think Brownwood would be a good place for a new Katie Bells. Then if it fails again folks will quit complaining....

[asianthree]

As recently as two weeks ago, prospective buyers were being told (and shown) the same thing. That what makes the closing of KB's different from the closing of some other restaurant in the community. It's a community icon and focal point.

The new KB's will share the same name but definitely not have the "wow factor" of the old one. A second floor, single-story restaurant with a stage and a small (or possibly non-existent) dance floor. A restaurant with free music and cramped dancing. How many other resturants in the Villages offer the same thing? And they're on the first floor and have open air decks. I wonder if the new KB's will be part of future Lifestyle Previews. I doubt it.

Life style visit is not what it used to be. Let's be honest if KB was profitable it would not be restructuring. Most posters say they go every once in a while. It does not seem to be high on most peoples list. Since 2007 we have been 3 times.

[buzzy]

When next year's people come for a lifestyle visit, how are they going to know that Katie Belle's isn't as good as it used to be? Won't they still be impressed with what they find then?

[otherbruddaDarrell]

i think Brownwood would be a good place for a new Katie Bells. Then if it fails again folks will quit complaining....

I think the original Katie Belles would have been a perfect fit with the whole concept of Brownwood.
It would blend in well with the old west style they have there.
A Mexican style cantina would be more the style for Spanish springs.
But....it is what it is and I am sure it will be something that will be done well and with style when they are finished.

[joldnol]

I don't think they are giving away any freebies anymore and haven't for a couple of years.

free movie and 2 rounds of golf at an exec and a championship course

[asianthree]

free movie and 2 rounds of golf at an exec and a championship course

Ours was 4 movie passes, tennis, lunch at Palmer, dinner at KBs, dinner at lighthouse, breakfast. Lobster and steak all around. Golf was 4 rounds at Palmer , Lopez. Still have the pass card with all that was offered. Big difference to what you get now.

[4aces4me]

Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

[Ladygolfer93]

Reminds me of the day only one week from the close of the Villages Wellness Center, an amenity (though for extra fee) that was a major attraction in my building my home here; an indoor pool and terrace with whirlpool, was worth the extra cost to me. On that day one week before closing the facility, at a time when all Villagers knew it was about to happen, I was on a tred mill as not one but TWO properties of the villages agents walked two groups totaling 8 people in all, through the facility touting what a state of the art facility it was and "selling" hard the fact that no other surrounding retirement development could boast an all weather, indoor pool, with classes and a "lovely restful terrace complete with a whirlpool under palms" ! I turned full face to an employee who heard this regaling of this amenity by the two agents, and her eyes, like mine, knowing full well that both the agents and residents knew their indoor pool was being taken away, due to "insurance" issues I was told (I guess there is no liability insurance on OUTDOOR pools ? ) There seems to be a great many words here designed to obscure the drive for "more money", as opposed to what residents enjoy and would like to see built. Rather than cut KB in half and put it UPSTAIRS (brilliant), I think most residents, even those of us who are not dancers, would like to see MORE THAN ONE residents only club ! In some ways, the Chula vista club was like that when I first bought a lot here, great atmosphere and not like the public restaurant atmosphere of the "country clubs". I suppose we also are getting too many churches, that is why we needed to turn our ONE non-denominational house of worship into a money making, ticket selling, venue. The Indians are certainly not in charge of the reservation judging from what people are saying from the chatting in the coffee shops to talk on the streets. Am I one of those eternally sour folks .....NO WAY, but I do seem to have my full intellectual facilities in tact and I don't like to see what is happening in this community.

[kwilson18]

First take away the church with its free entertainment, weddings and special,occasions, then take away our "private club"....who do you think you're fooling, family! Throw in thousands more homes till you see nothing but roofs for miles, charge exorbitant rentals for commercial spaces, and you have what USED to be someplace really special and unique. Now one hears many complaints from those who are looking to leave. Traffic and long waits for services have made living here "inconvenient". There are many places smaller with not as many amenities but a more comfortable and less stressful lifestyle.

[BigbirdPhila]

...TWO properties of the villages agents walked two groups totaling 8 people in all, through the facility touting what a state of the art facility it was and "selling" hard the fact that no other surrounding retirement development could boast an all weather, indoor pool, with classes and a "lovely restful terrace complete with a whirlpool under palms" !

For two more weeks, agents will be walking prospective buyers through Katie Belle's pointing out that no other retirement community in Florida has a two-story dance hall, restaurant, and entertainment center that looks like it's something from the set of Gunsmoke. KB's will make an impression on a lot of them.

A second-floor, one-story generic restaurant with a stage and small dance floor will not have nearly the impact. I guess management has decided that it doesn't matter for future sales, and the heck with quality of life issues for the residents already here who value it.

[villagerjack]

For two more weeks, agents will be walking prospective buyers through Katie Belle's pointing out that no other retirement community in Florida has a two-story dance hall, restaurant, and entertainment center that looks like it's something from the set of Gunsmoke. KB's will make an impression on a lot of them.

A second-floor, one-story generic restaurant with a stage and small dance floor will not have nearly the impact. I guess management has decided that it doesn't matter for future sales, and the heck with quality of life issues for the residents already here who value it.


I never even knew Katie Belles was a resident amenity when I bought here and in 8 years, I went there once. There are so many other outdoor activities to enjoy and so many bars, I cannot even count them.

For $150 a month, the amenities we receive here are the best in the entire world. I did my share of drinking perhaps more than my share in my early years so I do not continue it here.

Count your blessings. You are one of the fortunate 110,000.

[villagerjack]

First take away the church with its free entertainment, weddings and special,occasions, then take away our "private club"....who do you think you're fooling, family! Throw in thousands more homes till you see nothing but roofs for miles, charge exorbitant rentals for commercial spaces, and you have what USED to be someplace really special and unique. Now one hears many complaints from those who are looking to leave. Traffic and long waits for services have made living here "inconvenient". There are many places smaller with not as many amenities but a more comfortable and less stressful lifestyle.

I was in the Brownwood Sales center and looked at the number of closing on that little board the other day. It was more than 40 or 50 in just two days. What other Community in the entire world has amenities built for 110,000 residents while only 75,000 are around to use them for 9 months of the year?

This is the mist well thought out Communuty I have ever witnessed being built. Everything is quality and is done for the sake of the residents. Why not wait until it is finished to see what develops, you will be pleasantly surprised. I am sure of that. Enjoy all the good things here. There are plenty.

[BigBopper]

Bad idea! TV is losing one of it's entertainment venues to stores?? WHY do we need more stores..I don't want to attract any more outsiders than we have now. Seniors need entertainment,a place to sit down and enjoy conversation,have a meal/drink, and relax. They don't need a place to spend $$$ on 'frills' that you can find at any other store in TV. KB was a unique entertainment venue, with very good daily entertainment. It was special,being a Villager, and using your card to get in, and the environment was special..Now TV 'management' has decided that Villagers don't need this. WE DO. Stop the insanity. Don't give in,,PLEASE!

[BigBopper]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, it has been said,and I think something beautiful is being demolished all in an effort to squeeze more $$$ out of us. TV thinks it can make more $$$ with commercial space than restaurants,apparently. I was impressed, initially, with having KB as a 'private' club..and now,,,they will 'squeeze' it upstairs...not good. The Morse family is not ashamed to use it's power ($$$$) to change things. Who did they discuss this with? Did they take a poll of ALL Villagers? I bet not. So, our fees are just paying the freight for 'upgrades' like this, without our input? The Boston Teaparty started over 'taxation without representation'..where was ours when 'they' decided this? And how many more decisions are going to be made,using OUR $$$, without our input?

[BigBopper]

You have a great grasp of the situation, Ladygolfer93. Villagers should be outraged! I'd like to see if TV still has KB on it's "Lifestyle DVD".. If they do, then it's fraud! And you are right about COS,,,it was a beautiful church! To 'bastardize' it for the sake of having a 'concert' hall' is a grave mistake. We don't need all the extra outside influence added to the congestion that already exists. The prices they will charge will be excessive. I don't need Broadway in TVs,, and neither does anyone else.

[Bonny]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, it has been said,and I think something beautiful is being demolished all in an effort to squeeze more $$$ out of us. TV thinks it can make more $$$ with commercial space than restaurants,apparently. I was impressed, initially, with having KB as a 'private' club..and now,,,they will 'squeeze' it upstairs...not good. The Morse family is not ashamed to use it's power ($$$$) to change things. Who did they discuss this with? Did they take a poll of ALL Villagers? I bet not. So, our fees are just paying the freight for 'upgrades' like this, without our input? The Boston Teaparty started over 'taxation without representation'..where was ours when 'they' decided this? And how many more decisions are going to be made,using OUR $$$, without our input?
The powers that be don't have to discuss it with anyone or take a poll. It's their building to do what they want with. It was always a money loser and they probably have decided they no longer want to spend "their" money to keep it going. They don't need or want anyone's input.

[Bonny]

You have a great grasp of the situation, Ladygolfer93. Villagers should be outraged! I'd like to see if TV still has KB on it's "Lifestyle DVD".. If they do, then it's fraud! And you are right about COS,,,it was a beautiful church! To 'bastardize' it for the sake of having a 'concert' hall' is a grave mistake. We don't need all the extra outside influence added to the congestion that already exists. The prices they will charge will be excessive. I don't need Broadway in TVs,, and neither does anyone else.
"Fraud" if the building is in the DVD ?? Really?? :ohdear:

[circletrack]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, it has been said,and I think something beautiful is being demolished all in an effort to squeeze more $$$ out of us. TV thinks it can make more $$$ with commercial space than restaurants,apparently. I was impressed, initially, with having KB as a 'private' club..and now,,,they will 'squeeze' it upstairs...not good. The Morse family is not ashamed to use it's power ($$$$) to change things. Who did they discuss this with? Did they take a poll of ALL Villagers? I bet not. So, our fees are just paying the freight for 'upgrades' like this, without our input? The Boston Teaparty started over 'taxation without representation'..where was ours when 'they' decided this? And how many more decisions are going to be made,using OUR $$$, without our input?

I don't believe any amenity fees went toward the operation of Katie Belles. Don't amenity fees go to the CDDs to fund the continued maintenance and expansion of recreation centers and other district infrastructure?

Like I said earlier in this thread, I suspect a major retail outlet that wants a prime spot in the square is driving this project. That's just my speculation. But they certainly weren't afraid to close down Banner Mercantile in favor of the new World of Beer location.

[kstew43]

First take away the church with its free entertainment, weddings and special,occasions, then take away our "private club"....who do you think you're fooling, family! Throw in thousands more homes till you see nothing but roofs for miles, charge exorbitant rentals for commercial spaces, and you have what USED to be someplace really special and unique. Now one hears many complaints from those who are looking to leave. Traffic and long waits for services have made living here "inconvenient". There are many places smaller with not as many amenities but a more comfortable and less stressful lifestyle.

you stated that extremely well......I made that decision about 4 years ago.....when the Villages "life style" changed significantly. Our villages home is used for income, and I am not alone out there.

[dbussone]

First take away the church with its free entertainment, weddings and special,occasions, then take away our "private club"....who do you think you're fooling, family! Throw in thousands more homes till you see nothing but roofs for miles, charge exorbitant rentals for commercial spaces, and you have what USED to be someplace really special and unique. Now one hears many complaints from those who are looking to leave. Traffic and long waits for services have made living here "inconvenient". There are many places smaller with not as many amenities but a more comfortable and less stressful lifestyle.

I'm at a loss regarding your comment about TV's stressful lifestyle. The lifestyle is what YOU make it. If it is stressful to you, it is anything but that for me. My career was stressful, but in many ways positive stress. TV is hardly stressful. Perhaps some relaxation lessons would be of benefit.

[NYGUY]

....less stressful lifestyle.

The Villages is stressful??....that is too funny!!

[2BNTV]

Is TV stress factor different, than any other places stress factors? Stress is in one's mind on their outlook of life and their interaction with others. IMHO

At least TV offers so many opportunities to relieve one's stress, with it's myriad of exercise type activities. Drinking helps too!!! :D

[looneycat]

You have a great grasp of the situation, Ladygolfer93. Villagers should be outraged! I'd like to see if TV still has KB on it's "Lifestyle DVD".. If they do, then it's fraud! And you are right about COS,,,it was a beautiful church! To 'bastardize' it for the sake of having a 'concert' hall' is a grave mistake. We don't need all the extra outside influence added to the congestion that already exists. The prices they will charge will be excessive. I don't need Broadway in TVs,, and neither does anyone else.

sorry no outrage whatsoever, and you certainly don't speak for anyone but yourself!

[BigbirdPhila]

I never even knew Katie Belles was a resident amenity when I bought here and in 8 years, I went there once. There are so many other outdoor activities to enjoy and so many bars, I cannot even count them.

Different people place different values on community amenities. Other communities have golf courses, activity centers, restaurants, bars, etc. But not one has a Katie Belle's. It is unique and, for a lot of people, it is a source of community pride. Something that sets the Villages apart from all the other retirement communities.

It is being replaced by retail stores and a generic second-floor restaurant. The Villages is losing something significant.

[janmcn]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, it has been said,and I think something beautiful is being demolished all in an effort to squeeze more $$$ out of us. TV thinks it can make more $$$ with commercial space than restaurants,apparently. I was impressed, initially, with having KB as a 'private' club..and now,,,they will 'squeeze' it upstairs...not good. The Morse family is not ashamed to use it's power ($$$$) to change things. Who did they discuss this with? Did they take a poll of ALL Villagers? I bet not. So, our fees are just paying the freight for 'upgrades' like this, without our input? The Boston Teaparty started over 'taxation without representation'..where was ours when 'they' decided this? And how many more decisions are going to be made,using OUR $$$, without our input?


"How many more decisions are going to be made using OUR $$$ without our input?" All of them.

Prospective buyers should be forewarned that what they see here can disappear or change overnight. And as Bonny points out, what you see in the video means nothing. The video TV puts out is not a binding contract.

From a safety perspective, it is unbelievable that any fire marshal or building inspector would approve a second story establishment for 300 people, especially in a retirement community, with reports of nightclub fires and hundreds of people being killed. Assuming the kitchen would be on the top floor makes this an even more dangerous situation.

[Barefoot]

Villagers should be outraged! .........And you are right about COS,,,it was a beautiful church! To 'bastardize' it for the sake of having a 'concert' hall' is a grave mistake. We don't need all the extra outside influence added to the congestion that already exists. The prices they will charge will be excessive. I don't need Broadway in TVs,, and neither does anyone else.

I'm not sure why Villagers should be outraged. :confused:
Our amenities don't subsidize Katie Belles.
Our amenities didn't subsidize Church on The Square.
It's private enterprise and they have every right to do whatever they want.
Although most residents are sad about the change, in all fairness, most of us rarely went there!


The powers that be don't have to discuss it with anyone or take a poll. It's their building to do what they want with. It was always a money loser and they probably have decided they no longer want to spend "their" money to keep it going. They don't need or want anyone's input.

[dillywho]

For those of you concerned, KB will still be restricted to residents and guests only. If the residents and their guests stay away, then it will most likely be opened up to all. Many changes have and are being made here often times because of lack of support.

As for the Church on the Square, the same thing. At one time, it was "the only game in town". There were not churches everywhere like now. Are those living south of 466, 466A, and beyond going to come there for any and all their occasions, including to go to church? My guess, is not. I am sure that the newer residents probably don't know or remember how many here clamored for years for a "Performing Arts Center". Well, apparently someone listened so to say they don't listen to what residents want.........

This is all just my 2 cents, but I have seen many changes since buying here in 2003 and moving in in 2004. People will always complain when it comes to change. As for the money aspect, how many here know of anyone, ANYONE, who is in business to not make money? Some of you on here owned your own businesses. Did you go into business just to furnish whatever your product was to give it away or not make a profit? Why should the Morse family be any different?

We all have choices here and there is something for everyone if you want it. We are all free to pick and choose. I don't know of anyone who was forced to come here and I don't know of anyone being forced to stay here. Seems pretty simple to me.

[MDLNB]

:posting: The few times I have been there, the food was sub-par. Of course, that was during the off season, as I didn't want to wait in the long lines during the snow bird season. I tried to bring visitors to the place but couldn't get in, it was so crowded. If I want to impress visitors now, I take them to one of the many great Club restaurants. It's called Free Enterprise folks. I realize that this concept has become a bit vague in the past few years, but we do live in a free country. Hopefully, the change will be for the better. If not, then it too will become pass'e. The black side of the ledger dictates the business, not the red side or charity. :spoken:

[aln]

"How many more decisions are going to be made using OUR $$$ without our input?" All of them.

Prospective buyers should be forewarned that what they see here can disappear or change overnight. And as Bonny points out, what you see in the video means nothing. The video TV puts out is not a binding contract.

From a safety perspective, it is unbelievable that any fire marshal or building inspector would approve a second story establishment for 300 people, especially in a retirement community, with reports of nightclub fires and hundreds of people being killed. Assuming the kitchen would be on the top floor makes this an even more dangerous situation.

NONE of OUR money is being used at Katie Belles or the "church". And I'm sure the upgrades will include all necessary safety pieces. The new KB's will be no more hazardous than the Cattle Baron is now. In fact i'd wager there will be MORE safety precautions in the remodel.

I wonder how people that own multiple houses and rent them out would like it if the developer dictated what you can charge? Seems much like the question 'they should ask us about KB's & the 'church'!

[tomwed]

"resident-only club" in a retirement community located on the second floor ? Brilliant idea for those with walkers and wheelchairs.
Wouldn't they be required to install an elevator? Although I don't think they need a requirement to do the right thing. Are there elevators in the Sharon Morse auditorium?

[2BNTV]

Didn't one of the earlier post says there was an elevator, in KB's?

[Royal39]

"How many more decisions are going to be made using OUR $$$ without our input?" All of them.

Prospective buyers should be forewarned that what they see here can disappear or change overnight. And as Bonny points out, what you see in the video means nothing. The video TV puts out is not a binding contract.

From a safety perspective, it is unbelievable that any fire marshal or building inspector would approve a second story establishment for 300 people, especially in a retirement community, with reports of nightclub fires and hundreds of people being killed. Assuming the kitchen would be on the top floor makes this an even more dangerous situation.

This change is not what my wife and I were sold in 2000. It's true, that an owner can do with their property anything they want to do within the law. However, it seems to me that there was an implied condition that The Church on the Square and Katie Belle's were major enticement points in the sales propaganda.

My wife and I are very disappointed that the evenings that we enjoyed on the balconies of the Cattle Baron's Club will be gone. We felt that many of the employees had become like family and we will miss them.

[joldnol]

there is already an elevator, I was on it with my wife last week

[tomwed]

That Katie Belles isn't very profitable is a real shame. The make believe church was remodeled to into a beautiful theatre. So beautiful it's not as affordable.

I would have thought that Katie Belle's could take over those little concerts that were held in the church for 4 or 5 dollars a pop. Maybe the stage could be elevated? Maybe folding chairs on the dance floor? Maybe a membership would be affordable? When I joined a public course, I played all the time. When I had to pay, I would wait for great weather and friends.

Upstairs, if you are lucky enough to see the show where you sit you could order drinks, apps or desserts with a per person minimum.

I'm just brainstorming.

[twiceis]

I too read your article about the Katie Belle renovation and the demise of The Cattle Baron Club.

While I agree that the facility needed a freshening up, I think what is planned removes part of the uniqueness of The Villages. The artist's rendering makes Katie Bell's look just like any of the other night spots in The Villages. Gone is the wonderful large dance floor and old-time saloon atmosphere with the soaring ceiling. Now it will be just a restaurant with entertainment which is hardly unique.

The attraction to Katie Bell's was not the food....it was the venue and the entertainment. The Cattle Baron Club was a wonderful place to dine, but mixing the two into one is a step in the wrong direction. If anything, the facility should keep the same format, but expand the bar area which was way too small.

I was looking forward to attending an event at the new beautiful Sharon L. Morse Performing Arts Center before or after having dinner at the Cattle Baron Club. How could they get one venue so right (The Performing Arts Center) and one so wrong (the new Katie Belle's)?

It seems this is all being done not in the interest of freshening up Katie Belle's, but in the interest of providing more revenue for the developer by adding shops to the downstairs area.

I was hoping this article was just an April fools joke.:spoken:

[BigbirdPhila]

The powers that be don't have to discuss it with anyone or take a poll. It's their building to do what they want with. It was always a money loser and they probably have decided they no longer want to spend "their" money to keep it going. They don't need or want anyone's input.

While that's true legally, I believe ethically one can make a different argument. We are not talking about some generic bar/restaurant that was shown for 2 seconds on a promotional video. We are talking about a facility that prospective buyers were explicitly taken into and was used to demonstrate the "Villages lifestyle". The implication was that it (or its equivalent) would be there for their enjoyment should they decide to purchase in the Villages. The new KB's will not be the equivalent of the old KB's.

For those saying it loses money, what if the developers decided to convert all or part of one of the town squares into retail stores because it wasn't contributing explicitly to the "bottom line"? After all, the squares take $$ to maintain each year but don't directly bring in any revenue. They lose money! Wouldn't you feel cheated? The squares are part of the Villages lifestyle and were promoted as such during your sales tour. You assumed they would be there for your enjoyment should you decide to buy.

Opening KB's to the pubic or charging a cover charge are much less risky things to try before destroying this unique venue.

[JoMar]

While that's true legally, I believe ethically one can make a different argument. We are not talking about some generic bar/restaurant that was shown for 2 seconds on a promotional video. We are talking about a facility that prospective buyers were explicitly taken into and was used to demonstrate the "Villages lifestyle". The implication was that it (or its equivalent) would be there for their enjoyment should they decide to purchase in the Villages. The new KB's will not be the equivalent of the old KB's.

For those saying it loses money, what if the developers decided to convert all or part of one of the town squares into retail stores because it wasn't contributing explicitly to the "bottom line"? After all, the squares take $$ to maintain each year but don't directly bring in any revenue. They lose money! Wouldn't you feel cheated? The squares are part of the Villages lifestyle and were promoted as such during your sales tour. You assumed they would be there for your enjoyment should you decide to buy.

Opening KB's to the pubic or charging a cover charge are much less risky things to try before destroying this unique venue.

Never good to assume.......and since I have no money invested in KB's or the squares I have no right to feel cheated and expect those that invested and took the risk have every right to do what is in their best interest. Things change, and our interpretation of of what was implied when you moved here is just that, our interpretation. If KB's totally closed I doubt anyone would be leaving this place since TV is so much more than KB's. Shed a tear, punch a hole in your walls, scream at the top of your lungs, then let it go....there is much more to life than KB's

[Bonny]

While that's true legally, I believe ethically one can make a different argument. We are not talking about some generic bar/restaurant that was shown for 2 seconds on a promotional video. We are talking about a facility that prospective buyers were explicitly taken into and was used to demonstrate the "Villages lifestyle". The implication was that it (or its equivalent) would be there for their enjoyment should they decide to purchase in the Villages. The new KB's will not be the equivalent of the old KB's.

For those saying it loses money, what if the developers decided to convert all or part of one of the town squares into retail stores because it wasn't contributing explicitly to the "bottom line"? After all, the squares take $$ to maintain each year but don't directly bring in any revenue. They lose money! Wouldn't you feel cheated? The squares are part of the Villages lifestyle and were promoted as such during your sales tour. You assumed they would be there for your enjoyment should you decide to buy.

Opening KB's to the pubic or charging a cover charge are much less risky things to try before destroying this unique venue.
We loved Katie Belles and Cattle Baron, but in the end, it doesn't matter. It's their building and I trust it will be beautiful and all will be good.

[BigbirdPhila]

since I have no money invested in KB's or the squares I have no right to feel cheated

But you do have money invested in KB's and the squares. Your house's value. If the next buyer feels he/she can duplicate the lifestyle here cheaper at another community, the value of your house will decline. When unique amenities are destroyed and substitued with generic ones, your property becomes more of a commodity.

[Bonny]

I doubt very much that changes being made to Katie Belles will affect the value of my house.

[scrapple]

Does anyone recall the proposed schedule? I've done a few searches, but have not found the answer. Is it supposed to be closed at the end of April? Re-opening when?

[Mleeja]

Never good to assume.......and since I have no money invested in KB's or the squares I have no right to feel cheated and expect those that invested and took the risk have every right to do what is in their best interest. Things change, and our interpretation of of what was implied when you moved here is just that, our interpretation. If KB's totally closed I doubt anyone would be leaving this place since TV is so much more than KB's. Shed a tear, punch a hole in your walls, scream at the top of your lungs, then let it go....there is much more to life than KB's

I agree. Good post! :clap2:

[Bonny]

Does anyone recall the proposed schedule? I've done a few searches, but have not found the answer. Is it supposed to be closed at the end of April? Re-opening when?
May 1 st. They said about 6 months.

[NJblue]

I doubt very much that changes being made to Katie Belles will affect the value of my house.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact that sales agents use it as part of a sales pitch implies that, from their professional judgement and client feedback, it does have a value to prospective buyers and would argue that you are wrong.

Many on this thread argue that KB was unprofitable and hence it makes perfect business sense to close/change. As others have stated, but warrants repeating, what The Villages as a corporation sells is a Lifestyle - it's what separates TV from the myriad of other retirement communities. That is more than just an individual restaurant or activity, it is the entirety of the experience. Closing what many consider to be a significant contributor to that lifestyle or ambiance becaue it may not be making a direct contribution to the bottom line is akin to Disney cancelling its parade down Main Street because it costs millions to put on but doesn't generate any direct revenue.

The KB closing (yes, for all intents and purpose KB as a unique venue is gone forever), is just one of many degradations to the lifestyle that I have experienced since we have been here. I suspect that change in the direction of lifestyle degradation will only continue - at least those components that may not individually add to the bottom line of the developer. The one positive exception to this may be the Sharon - I am impressed with its possibilities. I hope it finds the right mix of quality entertainment at a pricepoint that is sustainable.

I wonder if the Life Long Learning Center is profitable? If not, it too may find its way to the chopping block.