National Institutes of Health Physicians Pushing a Plant-Based Diet

[B767drvr]

Here's a great article Jimbo and VPL, and anyone else SINCERELY interested in nutrition. Word is FINALLY getting out:


Abstract

The objective of this article is to present to physicians an update on plant-based diets. Concerns about the rising cost of health care are being voiced nationwide, even as unhealthy lifestyles are contributing to the spread of obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. For these reasons, physicians looking for cost-effective interventions to improve health outcomes are becoming more involved in helping their patients adopt healthier lifestyles. Healthy eating may be best achieved with a plant-based diet, which we define as a regimen that encourages whole, plant-based foods and discourages meats, dairy products, and eggs as well as all refined and processed foods. We present a case study as an example of the potential health benefits of such a diet. Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity."


"Too often, physicians ignore the potential benefits of good nutrition and quickly prescribe medications instead of giving patients a chance to correct their disease through healthy eating and active living. If we are to slow down the obesity epidemic and reduce the complications of chronic disease, we must consider changing our culture’s mind-set from “live to eat” to “eat to live.” The future of health care will involve an evolution toward a paradigm where the prevention and treatment of disease is centered, not on a pill or surgical procedure, but on another serving of fruits and vegetables."



Nutritional Update for Physicians: Plant-Based Diets (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/)

[Villages PL]

Here's a great article Jimbo and VPL, and anyone else SINCERELY interested in nutrition. Word is FINALLY getting out:


Abstract

The objective of this article is to present to physicians an update on plant-based diets. Concerns about the rising cost of health care are being voiced nationwide, even as unhealthy lifestyles are contributing to the spread of obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. For these reasons, physicians looking for cost-effective interventions to improve health outcomes are becoming more involved in helping their patients adopt healthier lifestyles. Healthy eating may be best achieved with a plant-based diet, which we define as a regimen that encourages whole, plant-based foods and discourages meats, dairy products, and eggs as well as all refined and processed foods. We present a case study as an example of the potential health benefits of such a diet. Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity."


"Too often, physicians ignore the potential benefits of good nutrition and quickly prescribe medications instead of giving patients a chance to correct their disease through healthy eating and active living. If we are to slow down the obesity epidemic and reduce the complications of chronic disease, we must consider changing our culture’s mind-set from “live to eat” to “eat to live.” The future of health care will involve an evolution toward a paradigm where the prevention and treatment of disease is centered, not on a pill or surgical procedure, but on another serving of fruits and vegetables."



Nutritional Update for Physicians: Plant-Based Diets (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/)

On the link you provided they recommended a diet that is explained on ChooseMyPlate.gov. Half the plate is to consist of non starchy vegetables, 1/4 whole grains and 1/4 lean protein. This MyPlate diet may be better than what most people are currently eating, but to my knowledge it's not a plant based diet. I believe it's an omnivore diet.

I believe a true plant based diet excludes animal protein.

[CFrance]

On the link you provided they recommended a diet that is explained on ChooseMyPlate.gov. Half the plate is to consist of non starchy vegetables, 1/4 whole grains and 1/4 lean protein. This MyPlate diet may be better than what most people are currently eating, but to my knowledge it's not a plant based diet. I believe it's an omnivore diet.

I believe a true plant based diet excludes animal protein.
I think they are wisely suggesting that a plant-based diet doesn't have to be made up of only plants. Just a majority of plants. What you are talking about, in my opinion, is a plant only diet, which is must more restrictive and maybe unnecessary for optimum health.

[B767drvr]

I think they are wisely suggesting that a plant-based diet doesn't have to be made up of only plants. Just a majority of plants. What you are talking about, in my opinion, is a plant only diet, which is must more restrictive and maybe unnecessary for optimum health.

VPL, I believe CFrance is correct. Here is the supporting information from the "Conclusion" section:

"A plant-based diet is not an all-or-nothing program, but a way of life that is tailored to each individual. It may be especially beneficial for those with obesity, Type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, lipid disorders, or cardiovascular disease. The benefits realized will be relative to the level of adherence and the amount of animal products consumed. Strict forms of plant-based diets with little or no animal products may be needed for individuals with inoperable or severe coronary artery disease. Low-sodium, plant-based diets may be prescribed for individuals with high blood pressure or a family history of coronary artery disease or stroke. A patient with obesity and diabetes will benefit from a plant-based diet that includes a moderate amount of fruits and vegetables and minimal low-fat animal products."

I added the bold to what I believe is the point you are making. That is, the less (or NO) animal products, the better.

Personally, after doing much reading, I have chosen to be majority plant-based with "some" fish (mostly salmon), an occasional egg or two, and "some" cheese (occasionally either on a pizza or with a glass of wine). I know Gracie would approve! ;) Just about every author I've read on this subject allows "some" animal product and still considers it extremely healthy.

[Villages PL]

I think they are wisely suggesting that a plant-based diet doesn't have to be made up of only plants. Just a majority of plants. What you are talking about, in my opinion, is a plant only diet, which is must more restrictive and maybe unnecessary for optimum health.

What I'm worried about is them possibly developing new, unclear definitions of the phrase "plant based diet". A vegan diet is a plant based diet and a vegetarian diet is plant based. Now meat eaters can claim to be eating a plant based diet? I feel like this phrase "plant based diet" has been stretched to cover everything and, consequently, it has become almost meaningless.

[Villages PL]

VPL, I believe CFrance is correct. Here is the supporting information from the "Conclusion" section:

"A plant-based diet is not an all-or-nothing program, but a way of life that is tailored to each individual. It may be especially beneficial for those with obesity, Type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, lipid disorders, or cardiovascular disease. The benefits realized will be relative to the level of adherence and the amount of animal products consumed. Strict forms of plant-based diets with little or no animal products may be needed for individuals with inoperable or severe coronary artery disease. Low-sodium, plant-based diets may be prescribed for individuals with high blood pressure or a family history of coronary artery disease or stroke. A patient with obesity and diabetes will benefit from a plant-based diet that includes a moderate amount of fruits and vegetables and minimal low-fat animal products."

I added the bold to what I believe is the point you are making. That is, the less (or NO) animal products, the better.

Personally, after doing much reading, I have chosen to be majority plant-based with "some" fish (mostly salmon), an occasional egg or two, and "some" cheese (occasionally either on a pizza or with a glass of wine). I know Gracie would approve! ;) Just about every author I've read on this subject allows "some" animal product and still considers it extremely healthy.

I wasn't doubting that the diet may have some merits. This diet may be a way for people to slowly gravitate toward something better. As I just explained to CFrance, I'm worried about the confusion that may be created by stretching the phrase "plant based diet". It will be something like the phrase, "everything in moderation". What does it mean? Nothing, in my opinion.

It seems to me like they just took the phrase and redefined it - stretched it - to suit their own needs. It puts an undeserved halo on animal protein, in my opinion.

Some have given the advice to, "eat everything in moderation" but they never explain what it really means. It's evasive. Now they will be able say they eat a plant based diet and that will be another evasion, which will make it difficult to have meaningful conversations in the future.

Perhaps they should call it a "plant based omnivore diet".

[Barefoot]

..... I'm worried about the confusion that may be created by stretching the phrase "plant based diet". It will be something like the phrase, "everything in moderation". What does it mean?

Those of us who eat in moderation understand exactly what it means --- not excessive or extreme!


mod·er·ate (mŏd′ər-ĭt)adj.

1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.

[plimit56]

Read the book Forks Over Knifes , which is plant based life style eating. Lots of Good recipes and very healthy. We do eat some chicken and pork.

[dbussone]

It is only evasive if one pretends to not understand so as to avoid a model which represents common sense to many.

[Fraugoofy]

On the link you provided they recommended a diet that is explained on ChooseMyPlate.gov. Half the plate is to consist of non starchy vegetables, 1/4 whole grains and 1/4 lean protein. This MyPlate diet may be better than what most people are currently eating, but to my knowledge it's not a plant based diet. I believe it's an omnivore diet.

I believe a true plant based diet excludes animal protein.
But can you find it at Arbys?

[Villages PL]

Those of us who eat in moderation understand exactly what it means --- not excessive or extreme!


mod·er·ate (mŏd′ər-ĭt)adj.

1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.

Extreme by whose standards?

[Villages PL]

It is only evasive if one pretends to not understand so as to avoid a model which represents common sense to many.

What about those who pretend to understand?

[graciegirl]

I find it hard to watch the show Hoarders. On it many times a person will hold on to a gum wrapper or something else similar, like plastic covers to newspapers, trying so passionately to explain that he/she may need it for something. If someone throws it away, frequently the hoarder will become angry, sullen, withdrawn, vindictive.

OCD is a very, very hard thing to understand, both by the person having it, and by the people they interact with.

[Polar Bear]

Extreme by whose standards?
By roughly 99% of humanity I would guess. (Yes...just my opinion. :) )

[Barefoot]

Those of us who eat in moderation understand exactly what it means --- not excessive or extreme!

mod·er·ate (mŏd′ər-ĭt)adj.

1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.

Extreme by whose standards?

Here is the definition of extreme.
I would think that the dictionary definition would be a standard for 99% of the population.

ex·treme
ikˈstrēm/
adjective
adjective: extreme


1.
reaching a high or the highest degree; very great.
"extreme cold"
synonyms:utmost (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+utmost&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CB4Q_SowAA), very great, greatest, greatest possible, maximum (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+maximum&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CB8Q_SowAA), maximal (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+maximal&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCAQ_SowAA), highest, supreme (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+supreme&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCEQ_SowAA), great (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+great&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCIQ_SowAA), acute (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+acute&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCMQ_SowAA), enormous (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+enormous&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCQQ_SowAA), severe (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+severe&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA), high (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+high&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCYQ_SowAA), exceptional (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+exceptional&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA), extraordinary (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+extraordinary&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCgQ_SowAA) "extreme danger"

[Villages PL]

By roughly 99% of humanity I would guess. (Yes...just my opinion. :) )

I heard that Polar Bears eat lots of fish. How many is "lots"?

[Villages PL]

Here is the definition of extreme.
I would think that the dictionary definition would be a standard for 99% of the population.

ex·treme
ikˈstrēm/
adjective
adjective: extreme


1.
reaching a high or the highest degree; very great.
"extreme cold"
synonyms:utmost (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+utmost&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CB4Q_SowAA), very great, greatest, greatest possible, maximum (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+maximum&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CB8Q_SowAA), maximal (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+maximal&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCAQ_SowAA), highest, supreme (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+supreme&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCEQ_SowAA), great (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+great&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCIQ_SowAA), acute (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+acute&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCMQ_SowAA), enormous (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+enormous&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCQQ_SowAA), severe (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+severe&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA), high (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+high&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCYQ_SowAA), exceptional (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+exceptional&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA), extraordinary (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+extraordinary&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCgQ_SowAA) "extreme danger"


The word "extreme" is a relative term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_term

The above link states, "The colloquial meaning for a relative term is that it is different for different people or situations. An example: someone who is 5 feet tall might think someone who is 5 feet six inches tall is tall, but someone who is 6 feet would think that that person is short."

[Barefoot]

Those of us who eat in moderation understand exactly what it means --- not excessive or extreme!
mod·er·ate (mŏd′ər-ĭt)adj.
1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.

In response to your question, here is the definition of extreme. I would think that the dictionary definition would be a standard for 99% of the population.
adjective: extreme
1. reaching a high or the highest degree; very great.


synonyms:utmost (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+utmost&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CB4Q_SowAA), very great, greatest, greatest possible, maximum (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+maximum&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CB8Q_SowAA), maximal (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+maximal&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCAQ_SowAA), highest, supreme (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+supreme&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCEQ_SowAA), great (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+great&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCIQ_SowAA), acute (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+acute&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCMQ_SowAA), enormous (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+enormous&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCQQ_SowAA), severe (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+severe&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA), high (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+high&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCYQ_SowAA), exceptional (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+exceptional&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA), extraordinary (https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=563&site=webhp&q=define+extraordinary&sa=X&ei=BCU4VdC5Lq3nsATnmYDwBA&ved=0CCgQ_SowAA) "extreme danger"

VPL, you are an intelligent man.
In previous threads, many of us have said that we eat in moderation. I know that you dislike that word.
You've said in a previous post: "Some have given the advice to eat everything in moderation but they never explain what it really means. It's evasive."

I have clearly explained what moderation means to most of us -- which is simply avoiding extremes. We make informed choices. Most retirees in The Villages have had successful careers and are well read.

We are capable of making healthy choices, and having a healthy and happy social life with lots of friends and activities.
Why do you doubt otherwise? :confused:

[l2ridehd]

:agree:VPL, you are an intelligent man.
In previous threads, many of us have said that we eat in moderation. I know that you dislike that word.
You've said in a previous post: "Some have given the advice to eat everything in moderation but they never explain what it really means. It's evasive."

I have clearly explained what moderation means to most of us -- which is simply avoiding extremes. We make informed choices. Most retirees in The Villages have had successful careers and are well read.

We are capable of making healthy choices, and having a healthy and happy social life with lots of friends and activities.
Why do you doubt otherwise? :confused:

:agree: :wine:


There are far to many all or nothings in this world. And moving to a "plant based diet" as defined by the article would benefit and improve the health of a huge majority. But I suppose "huge majority" is an evasive term as well.

And I just love my plant based stuff in liquid form. :eclipsee_gold_cup:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Here's a great article Jimbo and VPL, and anyone else SINCERELY interested in nutrition.

By this I assume that those of us that have read several books and many studies and, along with many cardiologists and other doctors have come to a different conclusion are not SINCERELY interested in nutrition.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What I'm worried about is them possibly developing new, unclear definitions of the phrase "plant based diet". A vegan diet is a plant based diet and a vegetarian diet is plant based. Now meat eaters can claim to be eating a plant based diet? I feel like this phrase "plant based diet" has been stretched to cover everything and, consequently, it has become almost meaningless.

A routine understanding of the English language should tell us that "plant based" and "plant only" are not the same.

It would seem to me that any diet in which over 50% of the calories are derived from plants would be categorized as a plant based diet. Are not vegetarians who eat dairy products eating a "plant based diet"?

As far as I can tell, a vegan diet is another name for a plant only diet.

[dbussone]

I heard that Polar Bears eat lots of fish. How many is "lots"?

Enough to help them manage their survival.

[Villages PL]

VPL, you are an intelligent man.
In previous threads, many of us have said that we eat in moderation. I know that you dislike that word.
You've said in a previous post: "Some have given the advice to eat everything in moderation but they never explain what it really means. It's evasive."

I have clearly explained what moderation means to most of us -- which is simply avoiding extremes. We make informed choices. Most retirees in The Villages have had successful careers and are well read.

We are capable of making healthy choices, and having a healthy and happy social life with lots of friends and activities.
Why do you doubt otherwise? :confused:


I doubt otherwise because of various statistics that indicate high rates of degenerative diseases and overweight issues in the U.S. population.

[Villages PL]

A routine understanding of the English language should tell us that "plant based" and "plant only" are not the same.

The author of The China Study, who studied nutrition nearly all of his life, referred to veganism as "a plant based diet". I never heard the phrase "plant only" diet before this thread.

It would seem to me that any diet in which over 50% of the calories are derived from plants would be categorized as a plant based diet.

I doubt that very many people will take the time to calculate whether or not they are getting 50% of their calories from plants. Non-starchy plants are very low in calories. MyPlate, which is used as an acceptable example, has 3/4 of the plate devoted to vegetables and grains(1/2 vegetables plus 1/4 grains). 1/4 of the plate is reserved for "lean protein" but the calories are allowed to go as high as 49%? That doesn't seem to make sense. Where did you get the information "50% of calories from vegetables"?


What's wrong with calling it what it is, a "omnivore diet"?


Notice that nothing was said about preventing cancer and cancer is the second leading cause of death. The vegan diet, as presented by Dr. Colin Campbell, includes a cancer prevention strategy as well as a prevention strategy for all the other degenerative diseases.

[Polar Bear]

I doubt otherwise because of various statistics that indicate high rates of degenerative diseases and overweight issues in the U.S. population.

Barefoot never said everybody makes those healthy choices we are all capable of making.

[Barefoot]

I doubt otherwise because of various statistics that indicate high rates of degenerative diseases and overweight issues in the U.S. population.

Residents of The Villages are much healthier than people of the same age who live in Northern climes.
Do you have any studies that indicate otherwise?
If not, why not assume we are a savy bunch, making smart, informed decisions about diet, exercise and social interactions?

[dbussone]

Notice that nothing was said about preventing cancer and cancer is the second leading cause of death. The vegan diet, as presented by Dr. Colin Campbell, includes a cancer prevention strategy as well as a prevention strategy for all the other degenerative diseases.


There is no such thing as a diet that will prevent "all the other degenerative diseases." This is a snake oil sale.

[B767drvr]

By this I assume that those of us that have read several books and many studies and, along with many cardiologists and other doctors have come to a different conclusion are not SINCERELY interested in nutrition.

Well...you know what they say about assumptions...

Most of these "nutrition" threads end up in tit-for-tat sniping and the thread being closed. Little nutrition information is SINCERELY discussed or exchanged. I apologize I didn't make that clear, but that's what I was referring to.

I do understand from previous posts that you've done a good amount of your own research and have arrived at a different and significantly opposing conclusion about what constitutes a healthy diet. I wish you only health and happiness and suggest we simply agree to disagree on this subject.

[Bonanza]

It is only evasive if one pretends to not understand so as to avoid a model which represents common sense to many.

What about those who pretend to understand?

I think you are speaking about yourself.
You often refute and challenge what others say.

[CFrance]

I think you are speaking about yourself.
You often refute and challenge what others say.
Good point.

[blueash]

Extremely misleading thread title.

I have read the link. It is an opinion piece with references from 4 staff physicians at Kaiser. It is referenced with articles and TV shows that support their opinion.

The National Institutes of Health is not Kaiser but is a governmental organization (NIH.gov) and is a far more prestigious organization for making recommendations, although Kaiser does excellent work especially in harvesting data from their patient population. This opinion piece was published in their in-house magazine.

This is absolutely NOT an opinion from the National Institutes of Health.
The lead author is a nephrologist who trained at a Caribbean medical school. His biography does not list any training in nutrition.
https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org/health/care/!ut/p/a0/FchNCoMwEAbQs3gA-aoi_ux6BgVNdsNENNTJhKgFb9-6fA8WM2ygr1_p9Bpo_9vInTvlU1Pv7kDiGRMs7CcOCyXeYMbr0 GdiolUIJmjOxNvynHcwddOVRftCFGkreWc_5HNNNQ!!/

While these doctors may be right, they are not the NIH and do not represent the NIH nor even the opinion of Kaiser.

[dbussone]

Extremely misleading thread title.



I have read the link. It is an opinion piece with references from 4 staff physicians at Kaiser. It is referenced with articles and TV shows that support their opinion.



The National Institutes of Health is not Kaiser but is a governmental organization (NIH.gov) and is a far more prestigious organization for making recommendations, although Kaiser does excellent work especially in harvesting data from their patient population. This opinion piece was published in their in-house magazine.



This is absolutely NOT an opinion from the National Institutes of Health.

The lead author is a nephrologist who trained at a Caribbean medical school. His biography does not list any training in nutrition.

https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org/health/care/!ut/p/a0/FchNCoMwEAbQs3gA-aoi_ux6BgVNdsNENNTJhKgFb9-6fA8WM2ygr1_p9Bpo_9vInTvlU1Pv7kDiGRMs7CcOCyXeYMbr0 GdiolUIJmjOxNvynHcwddOVRftCFGkreWc_5HNNNQ!!/



While these doctors may be right, they are not the NIH and do not represent the NIH nor even the opinion of Kaiser.


Son of a gun. Thank you blueash

[B767drvr]

Extremely misleading thread title.

I have read the link. It is an opinion piece with references from 4 staff physicians at Kaiser.

Thanks blueash. Sorry for the confusion - wasn't intentional.

[rubicon]

Those of us who eat in moderation understand exactly what it means --- not excessive or extreme!


mod·er·ate (mŏd′ər-ĭt)adj.

1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.

Hi Barefoot: I just happened on this thread and reached the same conclusion but your response is better than mine would have been.

Thank you

[rubicon]

:agree:

There are far to many all or nothings in this world. And moving to a "plant based diet" as defined by the article would benefit and improve the health of a huge majority. But I suppose "huge majority" is an evasive term as well.

And I just love my plant based stuff in liquid form. :eclipsee_gold_cup:

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[rubicon]

I have a friend who reminds me of some on this thread. i can recall when he would hotly debate which brand of peanut butter was the most nutritional.

His FAMILY and mine moved our separate ways but stayed in touch over the years. His youngest daughter is our god child.

He visited my home when we lived in Minneapolis area about 10 years ago. Now a vegan my wife worked her magic to meet variety flavor and nutritional goals. His family non-vegan enjoyed prime rib roast and fixins. There is in my view plenty of room for one's preferences.

My only objection is having members of the Church of Green (energy) or Church of Kale (plant) evangelizing. My friend does that too and it drives his family and us all up a wall.


Personal Best Regards:

[dbussone]

I think you are speaking about yourself.
You often refute and challenge what others say.

Just for clarity, the second quote belongs to VPL

[graciegirl]

I have a friend who reminds me of some on this thread. i can recall when he would hotly debate which brand of peanut butter was the most nutritional.

His FAMILY and mine moved our separate ways but stayed in touch over the years. His youngest daughter is our god child.

He visited my home when we lived in Minneapolis area about 10 years ago. Now a vegan my wife worked her magic to meet variety flavor and nutritional goals. His family non-vegan enjoyed prime rib roast and fixins. There is in my view plenty of room for one's preferences.

My only objection is having members of the Church of Green (energy) or Church of Kale (plant) evangelizing. My friend does that too and it drives his family and us all up a wall.


Personal Best Regards:

I so agree and personal best regards to you too, Rubicon.

[Villages PL]

Residents of The Villages are much healthier than people of the same age who live in Northern climes.
Do you have any studies that indicate otherwise?
If not, why not assume we are a savy bunch, making smart, informed decisions about diet, exercise and social interactions?

The topic of this thread was not limited to The Villages population.

[Villages PL]

There is no such thing as a diet that will prevent "all the other degenerative diseases." This is a snake oil sale.

That's why I called it a "prevention strategy". Words mean things.

[dbussone]

That's why I called it a "prevention strategy". Words mean things.

Words do mean things. That why I said this is a snake oil sale.

[Villages PL]

I think you are speaking about yourself.
You often refute and challenge what others say.

People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".

[Villages PL]

Extremely misleading thread title.

I have read the link. It is an opinion piece with references from 4 staff physicians at Kaiser. It is referenced with articles and TV shows that support their opinion.

The National Institutes of Health is not Kaiser but is a governmental organization (NIH.gov) and is a far more prestigious organization for making recommendations, although Kaiser does excellent work especially in harvesting data from their patient population. This opinion piece was published in their in-house magazine.

This is absolutely NOT an opinion from the National Institutes of Health.
The lead author is a nephrologist who trained at a Caribbean medical school. His biography does not list any training in nutrition.
https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org/health/care/!ut/p/a0/FchNCoMwEAbQs3gA-aoi_ux6BgVNdsNENNTJhKgFb9-6fA8WM2ygr1_p9Bpo_9vInTvlU1Pv7kDiGRMs7CcOCyXeYMbr0 GdiolUIJmjOxNvynHcwddOVRftCFGkreWc_5HNNNQ!!/

While these doctors may be right, they are not the NIH and do not represent the NIH nor even the opinion of Kaiser.

Glad to hear that it was only an opinion piece written by 4 physicians.

[Polar Bear]

People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".

What hooey.

(Pardon the technical jargon.)

[rubicon]

People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".

Huh?

[dbussone]

Huh?


Rubicon - you and Polar just have to stop using such technical terms. I'm having difficulty following them. Use your terms in moderation.

[blueash]

Glad to hear that it was only an opinion piece written by 4 physicians.

I know some are challenged in their ability to evaluate medical literature, tell the material based on double blind placebo controlled peer reviewed studies vs material based on anecdotal and personal experience. Some don't understand that an opinion piece by 4 doctors does not equate to a well documented meta-analysis nor to a comprehensive literature review. But if you choose to accept an article like the one cited for this thread as being authoritative and important, perhaps that is a choice you can make with comfort. Others, some of whom have privately messaged me, appreciated my pointing out that this dietary recommendation is not made by the NIH and giving information on the author of the piece. I never said the advise was bad, I said it was not authoritative as it would have been if it were indeed made by the NIH. I think, my opinion, that is an important distinction worth pointing out. Sorry if you disagree.

[Fraugoofy]

People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".
I speak fluent English and fluent German and I think that "Eat in moderation" means pretty much the same thing for most people with common sense. Eat a little of this and a little of that and mix it up every now and again. Don't go overboard. Yep, I think we get it. Most of us anyway!

[graciegirl]

I speak fluent English and fluent German and I think that "Eat in moderation" means pretty much the same thing for most people with common sense. Eat a little of this and a little of that and mix it up every now and again. Don't go overboard. Yep, I think we get it. Most of us anyway!

I agree Frau..

Don't go overboard. Don't be ALL or nothing. See the big picture. Not falling outside of what is generally accepted by society in general..

Once in awhile and now and then having something completely off the diet won't kill you and SHOULDN'T make you feel guilty.

Being jittery and worried about doing something perfectly all of the time isn't good for anyone and isn't healthy and is stressful. Feeling the need to talk about your diet isn't what most people do...for years...it isn't a moderate way to live. It is extremely out of the ordinary.

Taking pills to restore your health, no matter what your diet and lifestyle is not being a failure either. Science is a wonderful thing and many good men and women labored hard with the best intentions to develop a way to make us healthier. That doesn't mean that big business hasn't made a lot of money on medications, but to turn away from pills of any kind is very extreme. It isn't moderate. It could be very dangerous too.

[jimbo2012]

moderation...slightly pregnant :shrug:

[Barefoot]

moderation...slightly pregnant :shrug:

I've never heard any woman describe herself as moderately pregnant. :confused:

[Bonanza]

People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".

No, it is not pointless to use the word "moderation" regarding nutritional advice.

Why do you have such a big problem with that word?
According to the posts on this thread as well as others, you seem to be the only one who has a problem with the use of "moderation."
Doesn't that tell you something???

[jimbo2012]

Taking pills to restore your health, no matter what your diet and lifestyle is not being a failure either.


there are wonderful meds for instance for asthma and there are many others that can not be controlled with any diet

But diet related meds let's for example let's just look at two meds that are widely used cholesterol-lowering drugs (the #2 number of prescriptions written in the US. )
And blood pressure like Diovan etc

Modifying your diet and lifestyle to restore your health without the side effects of meds. May be a better option

[dbussone]

there are wonderful meds for instance for asthma and there are many others that can not be controlled with any diet

But diet related meds let's for example let's just look at two meds that are widely used cholesterol-lowering drugs (the #2 number of prescriptions written in the US. )
And blood pressure like Diovan etc

Modifying your diet and lifestyle to restore your health without the side effects of meds. May be a better option

You make a very important point. Even if a drug can't be eliminated entirely, the dietary change made by modifying (and moderating) may be sufficient to allow the dosage of a drug to be reduced.

[Villager Joyce]

And now we can eat eggs again. If you are old enough you can remember when milk was bad for you, then it wasn't just not bad, it was good for you. Now we can have red wine and dark chocolate and drink coffee. The moral to this story: eat eggs and dark chocolate and drink milk, wine and coffee. Before they change their minds again.

[Villages PL]

What hooey.

(Pardon the technical jargon.)

Thanks for the intelligent comment. I can tell you really put a lot of thought into it. Of course you didn't explain how anyone would know what moderation is for someone else.

[Villages PL]

Enough to help them manage their survival.

But we still don't know how many fish Polar Bears need for survival.

[Polar Bear]

...I can tell you really put a lot of thought into it. Of course you didn't explain how anyone would know what moderation is for someone else.

I put exactly the amount of thought into it that was warranted. And very few others in the world need the word 'moderation' explained to them.

[Villages PL]

Hi Barefoot: I just happened on this thread and reached the same conclusion but your response is better than mine would have been.

Thank you

As far as I can tell, "everything in moderation" is a phrase intended to give support to the processed food industry and to those who are addicted to processed foods. Under the "moderation" banner the following processed foods can be eaten, but the word moderation doesn't explain how much or how often. I'll give a partial list:

Pizza: (would moderation be one per week, one per month, or once a year?) (One slice, one medium pie or one large pie?)

Soda: (would moderation be once or twice a day, once or twice a week, once or twice a month, or a few times a year?)

Pastry: (would moderation be once a day, once a week, once a month or a few times a year?

Salty snacks like potato chips: How often can you have them in moderation?

Ice Cream: How much? How often?

Bread: How much? How often?

Candy: How much? How often?

[Villages PL]

My only objection is having members of the Church of Green (energy) or Church of Kale (plant) evangelizing. My friend does that too and it drives his family and us all up a wall.

What do they do in the church of moderation? Don't they evangelize too? Oh, you just don't recognize it as such?

If reporting or having a discussion about health is considered evangelizing, the media do this all the time. When do we consumers get an opportunity to talk back to all that the media throws our way in the form of advertisements and news articles? We're not living in Russia, are we?

[Villages PL]

And now we can eat eggs again. If you are old enough you can remember when milk was bad for you, then it wasn't just not bad, it was good for you. Now we can have red wine and dark chocolate and drink coffee. The moral to this story: eat eggs and dark chocolate and drink milk, wine and coffee. Before they change their minds again.

It may not be the same "they" changing their minds. Various groups do different studies and it all depends on what a particular group is looking for at the time. For example, I believe it's a relatively recent discovery that animal protein promotes cancer. Yes, a person can eat animal protein for several decades without getting cancer, just as a person can smoke cigarettes for several decades without getting lung disease. The true issue is one of risk. How can we lower our risk for getting degenerative diseases?

[jimbo2012]

we have expressed more than enough our desire not to have someone's obsession constantly shoved in front of us.

civility aside, wait 1 minute, nothing was shoved in your face by VPL, you read threads by choice.

You can also set anyone to ignore

[Polar Bear]

civility aside, wait 1 minute, nothing was shoved in your face by VPL, you read threads by choice...

With or without choice, your assessment is definitely a matter of opinion.

Just because one person does shove it in your face, doesn't mean you may not have an interest in the thread's topic...more than one person posts in these threads.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The author of The China Study, who studied nutrition nearly all of his life, referred to veganism as "a plant based diet". I never heard the phrase "plant only" diet before this thread.



I doubt that very many people will take the time to calculate whether or not they are getting 50% of their calories from plants. Non-starchy plants are very low in calories. MyPlate, which is used as an acceptable example, has 3/4 of the plate devoted to vegetables and grains(1/2 vegetables plus 1/4 grains). 1/4 of the plate is reserved for "lean protein" but the calories are allowed to go as high as 49%? That doesn't seem to make sense. Where did you get the information "50% of calories from vegetables"?


What's wrong with calling it what it is, a "omnivore diet"?


Notice that nothing was said about preventing cancer and cancer is the second leading cause of death. The vegan diet, as presented by Dr. Colin Campbell, includes a cancer prevention strategy as well as a prevention strategy for all the other degenerative diseases.

Unfortunately, in today's world people are changing the meaning of words in order to suit their purposes. The word based in this context does not mean that a diet is entirely of plants. Jazz based music may contain elements of classical.

Petroleum based products have other substances mixed in.

It doesn't matter what the author of The China Study says. The words are plain English. A plant based diet means that most of the food in the diet comes from plants. It doesn't mean a vegan diet which is a plant only diet.

[Fraugoofy]

I'm in too!! And I think we should eat chocolate and drink wine to celebrate. :)
I am in for eating chocolate and drinking wine and no talking about damn man eating plants!!

[CFrance]

With or without choice, your assessment is definitely a matter of opinion.

Just because one person does shove it in your face, doesn't mean you may not have an interest in the thread's topic...more than one person posts in these threads.
Thank you, PB.