Multi-Modal Path Discussion Group

[TOTV Team]

On May 5, 2015 a Multi-Modal Path Discussion Group with representation from Districts 1-10 and the Amenity Authority Committee will meet to discuss the multi-modal paths. The meeting will take place at 9:00 a.m. at the Eisenhower Regional Recreation Center. Please click the header of this announcement to view the agenda.

More... (http://www.districtgov.org/PdfView/PdfView.aspx?path='/PdfUpload/MMPWG Agenda 5.5.15.pdf'&ql=standard)

[ROCKETMAN]

My biggest problem with janet tutt and the engineering firm who say we don't need markings is that they have never gone out after dark and driven back from Brownwood to 466a. All their research was done during the day which makes no sense to me..

[golf2140]

The paths are fine.

[TheVillageChicken]

As long as there are windmills there will be Don Quixotes. Reflectors and stripes and speed limits won't enhance a drunk's driving skills.

[JoMar]

My biggest problem with janet tutt and the engineering firm who say we don't need markings is that they have never gone out after dark and driven back from Brownwood to 466a. All their research was done during the day which makes no sense to me..

I have driven after dark and in rain and have done that from SS to Hillsborough. I am strongly opposed to center striping and strongly in favor of having the edges of the MMP's either painted or reflected and when the paths split those edges be made more visible. Striping the center will create more issues for walkers, runners, bikers and carts. If you can't see where you are driving then don't drive or upgrade your cart to LED's that will give you more light. I assume that when you drive your car you never drive on those back roads that aren't stripped in the rain or at night? (Can you tell I hate this subject...:))

[Xcuse]

Agree!

[outlaw]

Lines on the outside edges of the paths will encourage walkers and cyclists to move more toward the middle of the path. Reflectors along the edges of the path will be a danger to walkers and cyclists, further encouraging moving toward the center of the path. Just my humble opinion. I have used both center lined paths and non marked paths and the center lined paths, in my opinion, are superior.

[DonH57]

As long as there are windmills there will be Don Quixotes. Reflectors and stripes and speed limits won't enhance a drunk's driving skills.

I agree. They need bumper rails.:jester:

[MikeV]

I agree about the markings when the path splits. I was coming back from south of the Sanibel gate on Morse Blvd at night and there were no markings on the curbs where the path splits. Very dangerous. Maybe they have marked them now since this was a month ago. Not so in favor of striping the center of the paths.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I always wonder what they were thinking when some of these paths were designed. It seems as though many of them have a lot of unnecessary curves built into them.

I am guessing that the thinking is that if we build curves into them that people will have to slow down for the curves and the paths will be much safer. I don't think anything could be further from the truth.

People still go as fast as they can and if no traffic is coming in the opposite direction will often take a straight line from one point to the next crossing over to the other side of the path.

A great example it a section of path that was built recently off of Morse just north of 466. Heading south you go over a wooden bridge to the new section of path that goes around the church parking lot. Just after you cross the church driveway, there is an S curve built into the path. Every time I drive over that path I wonder what they were thinking. The curve is simply stupid.

But the main problem I see with all of the paths is that they are just too narrow. Two carts passing each other in opposite directions come very close to one another. It wouldn't take much of a mistake to have a bad accident. Several of the lined off areas on the sides of road almost require that you have two tires in the gutter in order to stay on the path. The bridge over Lake Sumter is just absurd. IMHO, every one of these paths needs to be widened but about two feet.

[Villageswimmer]

I have driven after dark and in rain and have done that from SS to Hillsborough. I am strongly opposed to center striping and strongly in favor of having the edges of the MMP's either painted or reflected and when the paths split those edges be made more visible. Striping the center will create more issues for walkers, runners, bikers and carts. If you can't see where you are driving then don't drive or upgrade your cart to LED's that will give you more light. I assume that when you drive your car you never drive on those back roads that aren't stripped in the rain or at night? (Can you tell I hate this subject...:))


Agree! There are folks (and I'm one of them) who shouldn't drive golfcarts at night.

[PennBF]

I was one that was strongly in favor of striping on the sides and in the center of the paths similar as to what the high paid engineers recommend and have done on all of the major highways and most side roads. I realized that was not going to happen in The Villages because of bias by biker, walkers and last but not least the Village Management. Given this and the fact that I am responsible for my own safety I had lights installed on our cart that will highlight the sides of the paths and improve the vision for the center. It is not cheap but safety is usually not cheap, (e.g burgler systems, external lighting, etc.etc.). It is sad
that all cannot have the same level of safety on the cart paths at a cost of approximately 75 cents per household every 5 years. OH WELL :ho:

[DonH57]

I believe I will be attending that group meeting just to listen to what other people have to say.

[Polar Bear]

Can somebody clarify for me the pedestrian/biker concerns with various types of markings...center striping, etc.? Not trying to take sides here, I just don't fully understand.

[PennBF]

I have actually heard some of them speak on the subject and still don't clearly understand their objections and justification. It was so convoluted and lacking in good logic that I gave up. I did not mention that I was appointed by the Mayor
of a significantly sized city to their Parking Authority.This subject only came up at Authority Meetings as a "matter of fact" that appropriate street would have good striping and other traffic safety requirements. I am personally at a loss to understand how there can be any justification to deny proper and complete striping in The Villages on what could be considered reduced sized roads for vehicles called golf carts. There are probably in excess of 60,000 in The Villages. As mentioned in my previous note I gave up and modified our Cart to reflect enough complete lighting to ensure safety at night and in the rain.
All anyone has to do is to go out on the Turnpike and note the painting and striping. In fact on most side roads around The Villages there is a consistency in center stripes. I gave up and stopped trying to influence the decision as I am responsible for our own safety and there is too much bias out there.:ho:

[JoMar]

I was one that was strongly in favor of striping on the sides and in the center of the paths similar as to what the high paid engineers recommend and have done on all of the major highways and most side roads. I realized that was not going to happen in The Villages because of bias by biker, walkers and last but not least the Village Management. Given this and the fact that I am responsible for my own safety I had lights installed on our cart that will highlight the sides of the paths and improve the vision for the center. It is not cheap but safety is usually not cheap, (e.g burgler systems, external lighting, etc.etc.). It is sad
that all cannot have the same level of safety on the cart paths at a cost of approximately 75 cents per household every 5 years. OH WELL :ho:

Ah, a non biased view but one where the poster has taken responsibility for his own safety which is what we should all do. Good for you. Now if we could find a way to get the others to do the same thing.......rather that put our personal safety on the shoulders of someone else.

[JoMar]

I have actually heard some of them speak on the subject and still don't clearly understand their objections and justification. It was so convoluted and lacking in good logic that I gave up. I did not mention that I was appointed by the Mayor
of a significantly sized city to their Parking Authority.This subject only came up at Authority Meetings as a "matter of fact" that appropriate street would have good striping and other traffic safety requirements. I am personally at a loss to understand how there can be any justification to deny proper and complete striping in The Villages on what could be considered reduced sized roads for vehicles called golf carts. There are probably in excess of 60,000 in The Villages. As mentioned in my previous note I gave up and modified our Cart to reflect enough complete lighting to ensure safety at night and in the rain.
All anyone has to do is to go out on the Turnpike and note the painting and striping. In fact on most side roads around The Villages there is a consistency in center stripes. I gave up and stopped trying to influence the decision as I am responsible for our own safety and there is too much bias out there.:ho:

Public streets = private Multi Modal paths. Now there's a new approach.

[billethkid]

I am not sure there is any value to marking the outside edges.
What is the worst that can happen, run off onto the grass?

[dotti105]

I am not sure there is any value to marking the outside edges.
What is the worst that can happen, run off onto the grass?

If it was just grass that would not be a problem, but often there are large green utility boxes, trees, thick (ouch) shrubs, fences etc that are very difficult to see at night, in fog, rain etc.

I think that is the issue!!

[tomwed]

The paths as they are, are fine for me.

I do have a suggestion concerning street signs. When I am driving or biking to an exec course I'm looking for Nobleton or Buttonwood or some other cross street so I am reading the signs. What would make things easier is by placing a white wiffle-ball at the top of the street post on any cross street that leads to an exec course. It could be painted the color of the street post if white seems obtrusive.

[Polar Bear]

I am not sure there is any value to marking the outside edges.
What is the worst that can happen, run off onto the grass?
Oh my. I totally agree with dotti

At 20 or 25+ MPH, I can see a lot of potential bad from running off the path. I would consider myself very lucky if inadvertently I ran off the path (for whatever reason) and was able to recover and get back on the path with nothing bad happening.

[mickey100]

Is there a documented accident history of golf cart accidents at night that justify this striping?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Is there a documented accident history of golf cart accidents at night that justify this striping?

That's a good point.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

On one hand, I think to myself that all of the major roads and highways have striping.

But then I think that none of the 25-30 mph road are. Since multi modal paths have a speed limit of 19.9 mph is striping necessary? Is it overkill? Have we had a lot of head on collisions?

But I do think that the paths were made to narrow so maybe striping and reflectors are a good idea. But then I have no idea what the cost would be.

Evidently some people here consider that this is a no brainer and it's obvious that striping is necessary. Personally, I've never had any problem seeing the edges of the road at night or avoiding running head on into a golf cart moving in the opposite direction. So I question the necessity although I do understand the concern.

[PennBF]

There is a saying among people who install home alarms. The first time you really realize the need for a home alarm is the day after you have been robbed. I view the striping the same way. The first time you will support having them is the day after you have an accident. Today we were driving our cart to Spanish Springs and when we went through the tunnel by 446 we came very close to hitting a gentleman that was walking thru the tunnel without any reflector, etc. We actually swerved to avoid him and if another cart was coming we could have hit it. I said to the gentleman that it would be better if he wore something that stood out and his response was an expletive that can't be put in the note. I was polite and obviously he really was not a "gentleman". I wish him no harm and hope he thinks about it again and decides on the side of safety. It takes all kinds to make a world.:ho:

[DonH57]

I'm not sure of the stats of cart to cart accidents or carts and curbs. I do know that on some paths during or just where it rained some edges are covered by puddles of rainwater. Since I added lights aimed low to the pavement on our cart it's made seeing the cart path edges easier to see. The only additions of reflectors I would like to see are where the cart paths split. I don't see center line painting usefully but I think certain areas should have edge markings. I'm curious to know if any of the research by district reps every drove on the paths at night and in the rain to get exact conditions of what others are complaining about in order to make a determination.

[lynne]

Forget the striping - do something about the people who have souped-up their carts to go more than the legal 20 MPH and those that drink too much and think they know what they are doing. Striping the paths aren't going to help if people are negligent. It's just like driving your car on the road - drive according to the conditions. If it's raining, slow down - if you can't see good, get more lights installed on your cart. It's not rocket science, it's common sense. Or, did some Villager's leave that up north?

[DonH57]

Forget the striping - do something about the people who have souped-up their carts to go more than the legal 20 MPH and those that drink too much and think they know what they are doing. Striping the paths aren't going to help if people are negligent. It's just like driving your car on the road - drive according to the conditions. If it's raining, slow down - if you can't see good, get more lights installed on your cart. It's not rocket science, it's common sense. Or, did some Villager's leave that up north?

I attended the meeting solely for trying to understand how the villages system works and listen to people on the subject of golf cart safety. I was extremely disappointed when reading comments in the V=[l@#$% N%@&. I found that most people didn't or wouldn't understand what the engineer was trying to express about striping the cart paths. As far as I'm concerned you can stripe and paint whatever on the paths till the cows come home but you can't fix stupid. It may come down at some point to have an agreement between villages authorities and local law enforcement to enforce speeding and wreckless operation. The only reason people have souped up carts is because they know they can get away with it. I personally don't care when I get passed but when it happens on a blind curve and the idiot thinks I should be the one to slam on my brakes to save his butt. Be careful out there.

[lynne]

I attended the meeting solely for trying to understand how the villages system works and listen to people on the subject of golf cart safety. I was extremely disappointed when reading comments in the V=[l@#$% N%@&. I found that most people didn't or wouldn't understand what the engineer was trying to express about striping the cart paths. As far as I'm concerned you can stripe and paint whatever on the paths till the cows come home but you can't fix stupid. It may come down at some point to have an agreement between villages authorities and local law enforcement to enforce speeding and wreckless operation. The only reason people have souped up carts is because they know they can get away with it. I personally don't care when I get passed but when it happens on a blind curve and the idiot thinks I should be the one to slam on my brakes to save his butt. Be careful out there.

Until there is a serious accident or a law suit TV isn't going to have local law enforcement involved in controlling the situation. TV does everything to avoid conflict. Just read "the happy paper" every morning. It's time to inspect golf carts on a random basis and confiscate illegal equipment. The word would get around real fast. Too bad in an adult community it might have to come to that.

[Ralphy]

I wonder if this expert engineer is the same engineer who designed the blind 90 degree tunnel entrances and exits. I started pulling into one the other day and found myself facing a walker in the middle of the right lane looking at me. Good thing I am a defensive driver who was driving slowly and was able to stop.

[DonH57]

Until there is a serious accident or a law suit TV isn't going to have local law enforcement involved in controlling the situation. TV does everything to avoid conflict. Just read "the happy paper" every morning. It's time to inspect golf carts on a random basis and confiscate illegal equipment. The word would get around real fast. Too bad in an adult community it might have to come to that.

I agree. None of us want to be treated like feral children but there are a few in every village.

[DonH57]

I wonder if this expert engineer is the same engineer who designed the blind 90 degree tunnel entrances and exits. I started pulling into one the other day and found myself facing a walker in the middle of the right lane looking at me. Good thing I am a defensive driver who was driving slowly and was able to stop.

The only thing I know from the meeting was the engineer was from the firm who were asked by the villages authorities to give their recommendations on striping or other ideas for the multi modal paths. From listening at the meeting I walked out thinking there were a few that don't comprehend what others are saying or don't care. There are quite a few villagers that believe all cart paths are exactly that. Cart paths only. I can't vouch for the background of the firm the engineer represented in regard to design of the paths or tunnels. I personally don't think the 90 degree tunnel turns are a good idea either.

[tomwed]

I wonder if this expert engineer is the same engineer who designed the blind 90 degree tunnel entrances and exits. I started pulling into one the other day and found myself facing a walker in the middle of the right lane looking at me. Good thing I am a defensive driver who was driving slowly and was able to stop.
That's why I think a walker has a better chance crossing the street above the tunnel. You can see what's coming and wait it out.

[twoplanekid]

I am very interested in the results of the $6,500 traffic study being conducted by Kimley-Horn & Associates Inc. to be completed by late June. They must be giving the PWAC a super deal or the study is going to be a very small one. Also want to see how they factor into account the study not taking place during the peak season.

[golf2140]

I firmly believe that this issue is way over blown. I have driven the paths for 70,000 plus miles and never had an issue. Take your time, pay attention, all will be good.

[Polar Bear]

I firmly believe that this issue is way over blown. I have driven the paths for 70,000 plus miles and never had an issue. Take your time, pay attention, all will be good.
I tend to agree generally.

But due to unusual circumstances recently, I needed to drive a long way along Buena Vista north of 466a, east over to Morse, then a ways north on Morse, all after dark. I never felt in extreme danger, but there were definitely times I felt visibility should have been better. Edges were very hard to see at times. Some medians were on me very quickly. It was hard to tell sometimes whether approaching headlights were a cart on the path or a car on a nearby road.

I could see how night driving on the paths could be a problem at times, especially for those of us with less than the keen physical senses we had in our youth.

[golf2140]

I must add, we dine out in The Villages at least five nights a week. We come home after dark, never had a problem

[graciegirl]

///

[Clubberjones]

Stripe them both. It's 16 cents a year per household. Dig deep everyone.

[rhodeislander]

There have only been 3 incidents per year on the paths at night and there were various causes. Most accidents happen during the day and on the roads and parking lots not the paths.

I was a golfer slip on the edge of a sand trap today. We should add a ladder and safety rail to each sand trap. It will only cost $2:00 per household. Good grief!

The consulting engineer said no! If you can't see at night don't drive or at least slow down.