Oak Forest Debacle

[bargee]

Just heard from a friend in TV.Sanity rules in our home town.The signs are coming down.Understand there was quite a turn out.Congrats to all who attended and voiced their opinion.I'm sure we'll hear more as time goes on.

[jime]

Joy (and even a little jubilation)!!!

[villages07]

Bargee,

Your sources are correct. I went down to Colony Cottage for the meeting, sauntering in right at 5pm. Oops, nowhere to sit, nowhere to stand. I'm no crowd estimator, but, I would guess somewhere between 500-800 folks showed up.....the vast majority of whom seemed to be there to oppose the 'no thru traffic' signs on Oak Forest. There were also residents of the Oak Forest neighborhood there, and they were, understandably, disappointed in the outcome.

I could not hear the actual commissioner discussion, but, the gist was they voted to rescind the signs. The impression I got speaking with a coat and tie guy later on was this was now a dead issue.

I do have empathy for the folks on Oak Forest, but, in my own HO, logic did prevail here. As Sydney and others have stated, to allow this on Oak Forest would have set a terrible precedent for other neighborhoods.

So, for those of you out there thinking about buying in the Villages, the lesson is....study your road map carefully and try to analyze your location/traffic patterns from as many current and future angles as you can imagine.

[redwitch]

I do have a lot of empathy for the residents of Oak Forest but the signs just made no sense -- it is a public street and, thus, really shouldn't be restricted in such a fashion. Heck, even Bezerkley with all of its idiosyncracies didn't try this one -- they did block off streets with huge, ugly round barricades so they couldn't be through streets (thus making them inconvenient to residents and visitors alike) but they didn't post signs that really would be pretty much unenforceable (and this in a town that declared itself to be nuke free).

[Sidney Lanier]

I empathized with the Oak Forest residents right up until the point of insults and name-calling, and even then I felt that one rude person who could not accept being disagreed with did not necessarily speak for all his neighbors who honestly felt that they had a legitimate gripe. My concern was not just Oak Forest becoming a private street but more with the potential of countless other streets following as private streets, thus creating unbelievable havoc. After all, nearly every street in TV, with the exceptions of villa neighborhoods and cul de sacs, are potentially 'through traffic' streets.

We are up north at the moment and obviously could not attend the meeting, but we did write emails to the commissioners. Everyone played a role in getting them to 'see the light' of the potential problems, and they did indeed see the light. Thanks to those who posted information for those of us who could not be there!

[santiagobob]

i NEVER REALLY UNDERSTOOD THE OAK FOREST AREA RESIDENTS PROBLEM. SOUTHERN TRACE HAS MUCH MORE TRAFFIC AS DOES CARIBE DR., SAN MORENO AND MANY OTHER THRU STREETS. I LIVE ON ONE OF THOSE STREETS AND ENJOY WAVING TO ALL WHO PASS BY AND TALKING TO FRIENDS WHO STOP TO VISIT. I DO HAVE TO WAIT FOR A FEW MINUTES TO BACK OUT OF MY DRIVEWAY WHEN SEVERAL CARTS/CARS PARADE BY, BUT IT IS NO BIG DEAL.WE ARE RETIRED PEOPLE!!!

[johnfarr]

As was mentioned earlier, it would help if the rock n' roll cart path parallel to Oak Forest on Buena Vista were made a decent alternative by widening and removal of the many bumps.

[Taltarzac]

As was mentioned earlier, it would help if the rock n' roll cart path parallel to Oak Forest on Buena Vista were made a decent alternative by widening and removal of the many bumps.


That's probably something that should be suggested to The Villages management?? Who is the right person to contact about something like widening the golf cart path along Buena Vista?

[dgammon6]

Thanks to those that attended the meeting. That sign was ridicules. If the problem is that bad I think the solution is to ticket speeders and people that run stop signs.

[Floridagal]

About time they listened to the voice of TV. Great news.

[JohnM]

That's probably something that should be suggested to The Villages management?? Who is the right person to contact about something like widening the golf cart path along Buena Vista?


I understand that CDD-3 and the AAC are considering widening and paving the golf cart path along Buena Vista. I hear that it would be very expensive and that they are considering using some of the settlement funds to pay for it. I would contact the CDD-3 board or the AAC.

John

[JohnM]

About time they listened to the voice of TV. Great news.


I came away from this issue with two "pearls" (there are probably more):

(1) Government (and the "benevolent dictator") do listen to residents...democracy basically works;

(2) We need to stay "connected" as Mark Morse said in his speech to the VHA. This issue started as a minor item on the 6-24-08 BOCC agenda and then the signs went up shortly after (I know Oak Forest residents have been complaining for some time, but the issue and the proposed solutions were not generally known).

My $.02...

John

[Sidney Lanier]

What had to have helped considerably was the number of people involved in opposing this conversion of a public street to a private one. On another post somewhere I read about how to get people out 'into the streets' and involved; this shows that it can be done! Too often I get the feeling that the only way to get people involved and active is to turn off television nationwide for 72 hours....

[MikeH]

Really like your idea, Sidney. Let's turn off the TV (television) permanently, not just 72 hours, and go out and meet all our neighbors and get to know one another. Bet we'd have fewer disagreements and find easier ways to find solutions to our problems. Remember back before TV was the universal baby sitter for young and old? If you're old enough to live in The Villages you probably remember those days.

Glad our elected officials came to their senses. Remarkable how the desire to be reelected can motivate elected officials!

[bymar]

The No Through Traffic is a dead item but the safety issue on Oak Forest is not. The County Commissioners duty according to http://sumtercountyfl.gov/bocc/index.htm is
“adopt(s) ordinances (local laws) and resolutions, which establish policies and programs to protect the health, safety, and general welfare of the citizens of the county”. It was easy for them to wash their hands of the matter, but by law, they can’t. The Commissioners must have believed there was a safety problem to have put up the signs and now they are ignoring it. The safety problem is still there and some of these days someone is going to be hurt or worse. Some already have. And, the probability that it will not be someone that lives on Oak Forest is pretty great.

I want to see harmony between everyone so I have suggested an information blitz. People north on Buena Vista and El Camino seem to go in the Glenbrook gate and go down Oak Forest to get to Wal-Mart. Carts would find it far safer, shorter and quicker to take the Addison cut off Talley Ridge over to Davenport and then on to Wal-Mart. The problem is that many if not most don’t even know about it.

And, why would anyone want to go by car onto Oak Forest? Chances are good, especially in busy times, that they will follow an18 mph golf cart and possibly have to stop and wait for a car from the other direction because of a parked lawn maintenance guy. It would far quicker to go Buena Vista, at 35 mph) at lease to the Polo Ridge gate or if by car, why not Rt. 466.

I would like these directions be passed along to everyone you meet including the snowbirds in the busy times.

Oak Forrest was originally intended for Polo Ridge, Glenbrook and golfers. There was no Wal-Mart or were there any hints of such. In fact, I may be wrong, but about 8 years ago, New Covenant UMC owned part of that land.

Sure, the street is open to everyone again, but, as with all streets in The Villages, we should respect the residents. Try smiling and waiving at the people you meet. It’s a great place to live. And, obey the law.

[redwitch]

I'm sure the residents on Addison, etc. will be thrilled with an increase of golf cart traffic (not like they don't get more than their share right now). Actually, I've seen many more on the Addison route than I've ever seen on Oak Forest. And, yes, I take both, depending on where I'm going. The Buena Vista golf cart path is just too bumpy to take and I avoid it if at all possible. So, if going toward Laurel Manor, I take Oak Forest. If going towards Crispers, the library or the like, Addison.

I do try to be considerate of the residents on the "shortcut" streets. However, I will admit that I am now much more polite on Addison, Davenport, etc. than Oak Forest. For residents of Caribe, Azteca, Addison, Davenport, etc. I will happily stop and let their cars back out of their driveways so long as it is safe. To me, the arrogance of Oak Forest residents demanding that traffic not go down THEIR street pretty much turned me off to any sympathy for these people. I know that sounds petty but I doubt I'm the only one feeling this way.

[Taltarzac]

I'm sure the residents on Addison, etc. will be thrilled with an increase of golf cart traffic (not like they don't get more than their share right now). Actually, I've seen many more on the Addison route than I've ever seen on Oak Forest. And, yes, I take both, depending on where I'm going. The Buena Vista golf cart path is just too bumpy to take and I avoid it if at all possible. So, if going toward Laurel Manor, I take Oak Forest. If going towards Crispers, the library or the like, Addison.

I do try to be considerate of the residents on the "shortcut" streets. However, I will admit that I am now much more polite on Addison, Davenport, etc. than Oak Forest. For residents of Caribe, Azteca, Addison, Davenport, etc. I will happily stop and let their cars back out of their driveways so long as it is safe. To me, the arrogance of Oak Forest residents demanding that traffic not go down THEIR street pretty much turned me off to any sympathy for these people. I know that sounds petty but I doubt I'm the only one feeling this way.


I did not know that Addison went anywhere? From the Villages 08 map it looks to be a dead end?

The Villages 2004 map shows a shortcut from Buena Vista Blvd just south of the Harold S. Schwartz Wildlife Preserve through Panchos Way and into Village Santiago but when I tried to use this shortcut a few years ago they had sealed off Panchos Way??

The 2008 Villages map shows Panchos Way as a dead end.

[villager99]

there is a short golf cart connecting trailat the end of addison that you can use to get to davenport and out to the sumerhill pool and then on to southern trace shopping etc.
it's a golf car only way to avoid the polo ridge stretch of oak forest.

[Taltarzac]

there is a short golf cart connecting trailat the end of addison that you can use to get to davenport and out to the sumerhill pool and then on to southern trace shopping etc.
it's a golf car only way to avoid the polo ridge stretch of oak forest.


Thanks, villager99. I have not been near there on a golf cart anyway.

Did notice that the circle at the end of Addison on the 2008 Villages map is open and not shut and had wondered about that. :bigthumbsup:

[bymar]

I do not live on Oak Forest but I can see they are getting a bad wrap. The facts are that the people of Oak Forest went to the county commissioners to ask for help first with the speed and also the volume of traffic. No one from that street suggested anything and were as surprised as everyone else when the signs went up. I hope everyone hears this. They were as surprised as everyone else. The signs were the idea of the county commissioners, not the people of Oak Forest.

It's to bad that some spread rumors that the people that live there were responsible. Again, it is the county commissioners responsibility to provide safety to their citizens and they must have thought this was needed. I hope this correct news gets spread as quickly as the rumors.

There are a lot of streets that need help but most have golf cart lanes.

It is interesting that someone thinks Davenport is as busy as Oak Forest. I don't know how many think this but go and have the county commissioners do a study. Of course it doesn't matter what the study suggest, they are now afraid to do anything. Also, Davenport has a 15 mph speed limit!

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would want to go down Oak Forest if there was another way. Cars using Oak Forest may get behind a golf cart at 18 mph and even have to stop and let a car from the other direction come past because of a parked lawn man. If a car is coming south on Buena Vista, it would be much easier just to drive down at 35 mph to 466. The same thing goes for golf carts. With the congestion on Oak forest, that goes to a one lane if there is a parked car, why would anyone want to go that way if there is a shorter, safer and faster way?

When we first moved to The Villages, there was a vote to do something with the cart path. I saw signs that said it was the Developer's responsibility and so it was voted down. That sounds about like Congress. It really wasn't much money but it must have been the principle. It doesn't look like the Developer is going to do it and so it doesn't get done. Maybe it time to swallow the principle and face the facts that the path needs to be fixed like the paths south of 466. It would have been finished if the vote had gone through.

I also have heard rumors that the law suite between The Villages and the Developer includes an amount set aside for cart paths. I phoned our CDD chair and was told that is not true. I was told the entire amount is to pay down the cost of the Paradise Rec Center. Check your CDD people.

[Taltarzac]

I do not live on Oak Forest but I can see they are getting a bad wrap. The facts are that the people of Oak Forest went to the county commissioners to ask for help first with the speed and also the volume of traffic. No one from that street suggested anything and were as surprised as everyone else when the signs went up. I hope everyone hears this. They were as surprised as everyone else. The signs were the idea of the county commissioners, not the people of Oak Forest.

It's to bad that some spread rumors that the people that live there were responsible. Again, it is the county commissioners responsibility to provide safety to their citizens and they must have thought this was needed. I hope this correct news gets spread as quickly as the rumors.

There are a lot of streets that need help but most have golf cart lanes.

It is interesting that someone thinks Davenport is as busy as Oak Forest. I don't know how many think this but go and have the county commissioners do a study. Of course it doesn't matter what the study suggest, they are now afraid to do anything. Also, Davenport has a 15 mph speed limit!

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would want to go down Oak Forest if there was another way. Cars using Oak Forest may get behind a golf cart at 18 mph and even have to stop and let a car from the other direction come past because of a parked lawn man. If a car is coming south on Buena Vista, it would be much easier just to drive down at 35 mph to 466. The same thing goes for golf carts. With the congestion on Oak forest, that goes to a one lane if there is a parked car, why would anyone want to go that way if there is a shorter, safer and faster way?

When we first moved to The Villages, there was a vote to do something with the cart path. I saw signs that said it was the Developer's responsibility and so it was voted down. That sounds about like Congress. It really wasn't much money but it must have been the principle. It doesn't look like the Developer is going to do it and so it doesn't get done. Maybe it time to swallow the principle and face the facts that the path needs to be fixed like the paths south of 466. It would have been finished if the vote had gone through.

I also have heard rumors that the law suite between The Villages and the Developer includes an amount set aside for cart paths. I phoned our CDD chair and was told that is not true. I was told the entire amount is to pay down the cost of the Paradise Rec Center. Check your CDD people.








Keep up the good work with the posts, bymar. :bigthumbsup:

[redwitch]

Bymar, if you don't live there, were you at the Commissioner's meetings when residents asked for help? I'm wondering how you know that Oak Forest residents didn't ask that traffic be banned on their street.

I do agree that Davenport doesn't get the automobile traffic that Oak Forest does, but I do think Addison/Davenport have as much, if not more, golf cart traffic. I don't use Oak Forest in my car. As you said, it makes no sense and, to me, is just plain DUMB. But I will take a golf cart down it rather than put up with the bumpy, narrow path down BV.

And I'm still not convinced that the residents of OF didn't ask that traffic be banned on their street, so I'm still ticked at them.

[bymar]

Redwitch:

I have good friends on Oak Forest and I know what the traffic is like and I did attend the meeting. If you won't take my word for it about them not asking for the street to be shut off, call some of the county commissioners. When they heard the stories of the people on Oak Forest, they authorized a study to see how much traffic there actually was. Because it was summer, they were going to interpolate the results with studies on Tally Ridge made during winter months. They evidentially discovered that, yes; there was a lot of traffic so they put up the signs. I can't say that the people on Oak Forest weren't elated because that certainly solves all the problems, but it was a surprise to the people I know and I know several. There have been several incidents have happened on Oak Forest, usually because of speed and careless drivers. I wonder sometimes if some of the cars are driven by people who don't even live in The Villages and come to work via Southern Trace and turn onto Oak Forest. Check the ages of many of the people and you will see.

Oh yes, there were suggestions at the meeting to increase police on the street to slow the traffic down.

Oak Forest is one of the few streets with that kind of traffic that doesn't have cart lanes. There are a few others and I feel for them also.

I had my cart worked on this week and the repairman said he doesn't park on Oak Forest. If he has a cart there he picks it up and takes it back to the shop. He also told me that, and I think I remember it right, San Marino Dr is another street that he does the same thing. I don't know if San Marino has a golf cart path or not. I'll check next time I take it.

I think we all need to work together to solve some of these problems. I really like The Villages and I am saddened that people have ill fillings about each other, especially when they are based on misunderstandings.

A good golf cart path would certainly help everything. I also think that education about auto traffic would help. Buena Vista to 466 in a car would really help.

[redwitch]

Thank you, Bymar. I'm more than happy to take your word for it. I just wanted to be sure that you actually had some facts for your comments.

It's a shame the commissioners couldn't come up with a realistic solution like, um, oh, speed bumps? I really can't imagine why a car would drive Oak Forest rather than BV (to avoid the light?). It certainly doesn't seem a bit shorter. As I said, for those using a golf cart, I do understand -- BV is miserable to drive on, especially if you're female and even more so if you're a well-endowed female (I'm not and I find it uncomfortable). So, until the golf cart path on BV is replaced, I'm afraid OF is stuck with us and the residents of OF have my sympathy and I'll go back to being nice and letting people out of their driveway so long as it is safe.

[Sidney Lanier]

Could I suggest that we let this rest instead of getting into anything like 'he said, she said.' It makes little difference if the Oak Forest residents requested those specific signs or if they just asked for some kind of examination of the traffic and relief, followed by the commissioners having the signs installed. I think the issue for residents of TV other than those on that one street--Oak Forest--is the precedent that was being set of making one street within TV into essentially a private street for use only by residents and their guests and service people. The end result is that the commissioners unanimously reversed their earlier decision, resulting in Oak Forest remaining a public street like all other streets in TV, and it's now up to law enforcement to ticket speeders or other violators....

[bymar]

Thanks to both Redwitch and Sidney. Let's see if we can get a decent cart path.

[Taltarzac]

Thanks to both Redwitch and Sidney. Let's see if we can get a decent cart path.


That's sounds like a reasonable alternative for getting people off of Oak Forest Drive. Improve the golf cart path on Buena Vista. I have heard that some people though avoid it also because it is rather twisty??

[Sidney Lanier]

I have never been on that golf cart parallel to BVB. What is the story with it? How bad is it? Is it not paved? Or is it too narrow for carts to pass each other? The closest I have been there is passing the opening into Oak Forest from Southern Trace and then taking the tunnel under BVB on my way to Saddlebrook, and I never even noticed the street....

[bymar]

Sidney. The answer to your questions is YES! It is the quality of the one on El Camino Real. Three years ago, when we arrived, there was a big discussion about what to do. The voters had three choices. To repair, replace or do nothing. We were to new to know what was going on. There were two assessments, one for repair and another for replacement, either amount didn't seem big to me and so we took the middle ground and voted for the repairs. There were posters all over the place saying the golf paths were the responsibility of the Developer and to vote no on the improvements. That's how the vote went. Nothing was done.

Well, the developer didn't do anything either and we are left with the same thing three years later, only now there is a new Wal-Mart and soon a Beals and a lot more traffic.

Perhaps it's time that the people give Oak Forest a break since the commissioners are probably afraid to do anything now and vote to replace the path.

Coming down Oak Forest this eve I see there are counting tubes across the street again. I have no idea what's up.

[Sidney Lanier]

Perhaps it's time that the people give Oak Forest a break since the commissioners are probably afraid to do anything now and vote to replace the path.



That's why I suggested that it's time to give this topic a rest.... However, if it's within the power of the commissioners to "vote to replace the path" (I'm the one who's too new now to know how these matters are resolved), then maybe that's where the pressure needs to be put.

[downeaster]

The plan, mentioned by bymar, to replace or repair the path in question would have been funded by assessing the owners in the district(s) adjacent to the path. They didn't think it was fair for them to bare (bear?) the burden as the path is used by other Villagers as well.
However, it is now a moot point as provisions contained in the recent lawsuit settlement will fund the project. For the terms of that settlement go to:

http://www.ccfj.net/CDDVillages$40milllawsuit.html

DC

[SABRMnLgs]

Hi,

My wife and I just moved here a short time ago and live nowhere near the aforementioned street. So we are neither pro or con on the subject. And maybe I am being naive, but if this street is a public thoroughfare, that means it is everyon'e taxes that help to pay for the road and it's upkeep. How can anyone or any group think they can make rules regarding if I wish to use this road for whatever reason? It IS a PUBLIC road.

Jerry Jackson

[bymar]

Downeaster:

That is an interesting website about the 40 million. I called the president of our CDD3 because I kept hearing there was money to improve the cart paths. He said no, the 40 million is to pay for the Paradise Rec. Center. Is this web site after the settlement or what the suit was intended to do?

Looks like the attorneys were the ones that made out.