Gas lines in the attic in lightning-prone areas

[gfmucci]

Many of us have been made aware of several facts that have converged to create some concern about the safety of some homes with gas lines installed in the attic. These facts include the following:

- The rapid destruction of the home that burned down due to a lightning strike
- Gas lines installed in the attic
- The materials (CSST) of the gas lines in the attic
- The nationwide incidence of perferation of these materials via lightning strikes
- The recognition of this part of Florida being the lightning bulls-eye of the western hemisphere.

I have a call in to Mike Farrington (referred by Kim in the Ocala Offie) of TECO. Mike is over all the TECO service techs in this area. His number is 352-401-3417. My questions to him will include:

1) Is there any significant difference in level of safety of gas lines installed in the attic compared to ground mounted gas lines in a lightining prone area.

2) What modifications have been made to the gas connections in the attic over the years in The Villages to increase their safety.

3) How can I be sure that my attic gas line installation reflects that latest improvements and safety measures?

4) Are there any measures that can or should be taken by the homeowner to improve the safety of this system, given our lightning-prone environment?

Any other good questions you can think of to ask are invited.

Here are two enlightening (no pun intended) articles about the attic mounted gas line materials (corregated stainless steel tubing (CSST)) particularly subject to rupture by lightning strikes: http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=8657223&ClientType=Printable and http://hawkeyehomeinspects.com/documents/CSST-DANGERS.pdf

It appears that this type of material is used in new homes with attic gas line installations in TV. The question is: Is proper grounding sufficient to prevent perforations from electrical discharge from lightning? Or is replacement with black iron pipe or a lightning diversion system safer alternatives?

My admittedly unscientific conclusion after reading the above articles is this:

Grounded or not, CSST serves as an effective lightning-attracting ground - like having a lightning rod in your attic. With the older, thick-walled "black iron" pipe used for gas transmission, a lightning strike does not perforate its thick wall, and the mega volts are conducted harmlessly into the ground. In the case of CSST, a lightning strike will perforate its thin wall as it is conducted disasterously into the ground.

Comments and critiques from you electricians, electro-mechanical engineers, physicists and other logical types out there?
__________________

[Note to admin: I repeated this excerpt of a previous post due to the importance of this issue. I hope you agree.]

[jojo]

Not an electrician, physicist or any of the above, but I do share your concern. I had the Villages Warranty out this week (Our home is less than a year old). I asked her about how to turn off the gas line and learned indeed that ours too was in the attic. We had a frightening view from our lanai of the home that burned - before we knew it was a home my husband said it looked like a gas line exploded. Hope that we get some answers to your questions.

[Peggy D]

It never occured tome that gas lines would be up in the attic.

I'm surprised it is legal, given that Flordia is so prone to lightning strikes.

Learn something new everyday here on TOTV.

Looks like it's an all electric house for us when we move there!!

[Frangyomory]

I don't know that they build all electric Peggy. This was the first I heard of the gas in the attic issue and I have lived here three years this month. Scares the crap out of me to say it mildly. I also plan to look into this and see what corrective action we need to do. Right now though, I am trying to get over my $202 shocking amenity/water/utility/trash bill for this month!!!!! I am in a complete state of shock over the amount since they combined them all and now will have to pull out last months bills and see what they were individually!!!! Holy cow!!!!!

[graciegirl]

Hadley is an all electric village and so will be all the rest. I don't think your bill seems high especially when you have more than half be the amenities payment.

[billethkid]

Last year there was a class action suit, I believe, against the manufacturer of the piping used in many homes. If you have gas, are in FL, it is almost a certainty the lines are in the attic.
The suit was that "some" lines did not sustain lightning hits as intended. They did offer to pay for the appropriate lightning arrester system as long as one provided the build/close date and proof(picture) of the piping in question.

I think offer expired last September. Either the defect(?) was corrected in subsequent construction....or there may be a liability remaining. If I was in FL I have the announcement on my desk top....only have my laptop with me while away.

I am sure either the TECO or the plumbing contractor for your home can provide additional insight.

WHile the area we live in may be the so called lightning capital of the US, the more important number is how many of the meteorological strikes ever hit a home?

There have been gas lines in attics in FL ever since.......well a long time. But the subject should be investigated to ones own comfort. Statistically the odds are substantially in your favor. Yes, I know, not comforting to the one that gets hit.

BTK

[barb1191]

Any other good questions you can think of to ask are invited.



Was wondering how one can tell where their gas lines run, roof or ground? If one has vaulted ceilings throughout, is it fair to assume that the gas lines are NOT run overhead?

Vaulted ceilings = no attics.

barb

[bimmertl]

BTK hit the nail on the head. The odds of your home being hit by lightning are slim. The odds of a fire from lightning are even higher.

Talk to some lifetime Florida residents and ask how many of their homes were struck by lightning, let alone hit by it.

Here's some data on residential fires. Lightning not even mentioned as a significant cause. Smoking primary cause of fire related deaths. Cooking primary cause of residential fires. Adults over 65 an at risk group for residential fires and 40% of the fires alcohol related.

So stop smoking, quit drinking and eat out all the time and you'll decrease the odds of a house fire more than wasting your money on lighting rods. You can use the $3,000 for the increased restaurant expense or use some of it to get the special locks for your golf carts so they won't get stolen! ;D

PS Somebody alleges Glade plug ins start fires, so be careful with those also!

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/fire.htm

[travelstiles]

So stop smoking, quit drinking and eat out all the time and you'll decrease the odds of a house fire more than wasting your money on lighting rods. You can use the $3,000 for the increased restaurant expense or use some of it to get the special locks for your golf carts so they won't get stolen

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I'd rather be hit by lightning than stop eating out and having a few drinks.

IMHO, that is....

[Sidney Lanier]

gfmucci: Thanks for your valuable information! We aren't in our home in TV right now and are probably not hearing everything that we would like to know about this issue. It took the one lightning strike in Poinciana and the house burning to the ground for all of us to be more than aware of it; we're downright concerned. But as pointed out by BTK and bimmertl, we don't have to panic. When anyone has more info about this, please post it, especially for those of us who aren't there at the moment. Thanks!

[Ooper]

bille ... There was a class action against the company that makes the flexible gasline tubing but it wasn't to pay for an appropriate system. We went thru the steps and supplied the pictures, etc., and come to find out, they were only going to pay a small portion of the cost of a lightning rod system. And the amounts varied depending on the type and style of the house, what it was made of (block or stick), how many square feet, etc. Our settlement only amounted to a couple hundred dollars.

[gfmucci]

So stop smoking, quit drinking and eat out all the time and you'll decrease the odds of a house fire more than wasting your money on lighting rods. You can use the $3,000 for the increased restaurant expense or use some of it to get the special locks for your golf carts so they won't get stolen

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I'd rather be hit by lightning than stop eating out and having a few drinks.*

IMHO, that is....


Well, this unexpected additional risk of "lightning-strikes-thin-walled-gas-piping al la 'lightning rod' in-the-attic-burning-down-house-in-five-minutes" is not something we moved to TV for.* We evacuated Destin three times in 2005 for hurricanes, wondering if our house was still standing as we were on our way back home.* I don't want to wonder if our house is still standing after one of our more-frequent-than-hurricanes thunder storms when we're on our way back home from lunch at Toojays.

I'm certainly glad our situation isn't an "either/or": eating out a few times a week or getting lightning rods.* By the way, I already don't smoke, don't drink and we eat out all the time, so nothing really has to change ;D.

Talk to some lifetime Florida residents and ask how many of their homes were struck by lightning, let alone hit by it.

I've lived in Florida for 50 years (south and north).* No part of Florida has more lightning strikes than central.* I've seen the results of several homes struck by lightning.* I doubt they had thin-walled gas lines in their attic (a recent labor-saving material.)* The combination of frequency of lightning hits here and thin gas lines in the attic is more than I want to gamble on.

[gfmucci]

Was wondering how one can tell where their gas lines run, roof or ground? If one has vaulted ceilings throughout, is it fair to assume that the gas lines are NOT run overhead?

Vaulted ceilings = no attics.


We have vaulted ceilings and gas lines in the attic. They are over our garage. There is still 3 to 5 feet between your vaulted ceiling and the roof of your house. If you access your attic from the garage (depending on model of your home) you may see the gas lines if you have gas. The piping is covered in yellow vinyl, but you can see the CSST near the fittings.

[starflyte1]

If a person bought a gas/electric house and wanted all electric, could you just cap the line before it enters the house?

[SteveFromNY]

Not to minimize the risk of gas lines in the attic at all, but keep in mind the area where they actually run.
In my house the gas enters at the main, rises into the attic and goes 3 places. About 4 ft over, then down to the water heater, another couple of feet to the furnace, the dryer, then another couple of feet to the stove. These appliances are pretty close to one another. Perhaps a 20' run straight across the garage.
Unless you have a gas grill in a summer kitchen, there is a fairly small area with gas above it. The lines are not running through the entire house, but are minimized. The builders want the material costs to be as low as possible.
None of this means lightning won't hit the short run of gas lines where they are, and certainly the house in Sunset Ridge was hit above the garage, so it was this vulnerable spot.
Just keep in mind there aren't gas lines crossing all parts of the attic say the way our electric does.

[gfmucci]

If a person bought a gas/electric house and wanted all electric, could you just cap the line before it enters the house?


Yes, you could. But the question remains, are there 220 volt electric outlets to where the gas appliances used to be? In our house there is a 220 for the dryer in our gas-equipped house. There is no 220 for the gas hot water heater. I don't know if there is a 220 for the stove. The big expense would be to retrofit the AC/Heat unit to all electric. I'd guess $3,000 to $4,000 with the required change of hardware and adding a 220 line.

[starflyte1]

Thanks for the reply, gfmucci. I see that it wouldn't be very practical to do so unless you bought a resale and wanted to update the whole house. Thanks again.

[ConeyIsBabe]

gfmucci...... thank you for initiating this topic, I find it very interesting.

So, now I have another concern when (?) I start shopping for my TV home -- along with avoiding the choo-choo train noise, the sewer smell, noise from pickleball courts, NOW I'll be on the lookout for an all electric home! I guess that eliminates the historic district that I was favoring :dontknow:

[starflyte1]

What area may have a sewer smell?

[Frangyomory]

I got this email from a snow bird neighbor to whom I sent the thread for comments. Thought you would all be interested in his comments but I still believe we have concerns about the CSST covering on the gas lines. I am not sure he is totallly correct but felt I should share the comments.

Hi Fran...
Because we had to tear down the gas line for our water heater and furnace, which are all in our GARAGES, I know for a fact that in my villa, and I would guess every villa in Cherry Vale Villas, the gas lines are entirely in the Garage. I guess some of the "air handlers" are NOT in the garage, and that may be different for them. Also, all the the newer houses are all electric, and there is no gas in the building at all. Larry

[graciegirl]

Yes, you could. But the question remains, are there 220 volt electric outlets to where the gas appliances used to be? In our house there is a 220 for the dryer in our gas-equipped house. There is no 220 for the gas hot water heater. I don't know if there is a 220 for the stove. The big expense would be to retrofit the AC/Heat unit to all electric. I'd guess $3,000 to $4,000 with the required change of hardware and adding a 220 line.


Running a 220 line shouldn't run over a hundred dollars. We just redid our kitchen in Ohio and had a lot of electrical work done, undercounter lights, moving major appliances and moving switches. A nice new electric stove would be around seven hundred dollars and a decent new dryer would be five. What have I forgotten. Oh, the heat pump. BUT I think that is what I would do. Just change to electric. It is a real crap shoot. As my sainted mother would say, if you're born to hang, you won't drown.

I do feel bad and realize that I too would change out. Our house is new too. What a disappointment. But it is a fixable thing, not like some troubles we have to face that we can't fix for sure.

[ejp52]

Yes, you could. But the question remains, are there 220 volt electric outlets to where the gas appliances used to be? In our house there is a 220 for the dryer in our gas-equipped house. There is no 220 for the gas hot water heater. I don't know if there is a 220 for the stove. The big expense would be to retrofit the AC/Heat unit to all electric. I'd guess $3,000 to $4,000 with the required change of hardware and adding a 220 line.
There was an electrical plug for range in my kitchen,I removed gas stove and replaced with an electric one,just capped off gas line.
It is ranch Amarillo in Duval.

[ConeyIsBabe]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm wondering.................

when you cap-off the gas line and don't use it anymore, is there still gas inside the pipes ?????

[SteveFromNY]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm wondering.................

when you cap-off the gas line and don't use it anymore, is there still gas inside the pipes ?????


Presumably, one would also shut off the main. To cap the lines and leave the main open would certainly keep the risk the same.

[carlent]

Coney...is the historic side all gas? It is also my favorite place and where we would look when it is time to buy...and it is also where we are renting this winter. But i never asked about it being gas or electric

Carlent

[gfmucci]

I took the plunge and Joan and I talked ourselves into purchasing the installation of the lightning protection system. I won't answer questions about price because there will be those who say they got theirs for $700...others for over $3,000. Price varies with size and shape of the house, and most of all, with the components and expertise of the installation. I am not going for the low bid for this puppy.

[graciegirl]

Good for you. I know you will be much more at peace.

[Frangyomory]

Did anyone every talk to a gas company representative to find out if this vinyl covering on the gas pipes in the attic was true or just an ugly rumor???? I am concerned because we have a dog and now I hesitate to ever leave her alone for any amount of time. Just wondered if any of this was even close to the truth. My husband says it is not likely and I really want to believe him. Can anyone out there give any kind of assurance????

I do love this site. I have learned so very much here in our three years as Villagers. Thanks to all of you. :#1:

[SteveFromNY]

Did anyone every talk to a gas company representative to find out if this vinyl covering on the gas pipes in the attic was true or just an ugly rumor???? I am concerned because we have a dog and now I hesitate to ever leave her alone for any amount of time. Just wondered if any of this was even close to the truth. My husband says it is not likely and I really want to believe him. Can anyone out there give any kind of assurance????

I do love this site. I have learned so very much here in our three years as Villagers. Thanks to all of you. :#1:


There is definitely yellow vinyl covering the gas pipes that go from the main across the roof to the water heater, furnace and stove in my house. And you can easily see the flex-type connections used near the valves and joints. This is a vulnerable spot for a lightning strike, as (probably) shown by the fire in Sunset Ridge.

[graciegirl]

That sounds so dangerous and I wonder why that code hasn't been changed. I have always lived where there are basements and clay soil and gas pipes were underground.

[tucson]

Not an electrician, physicist or any of the above, but I do share your concern. I had the Villages Warranty out this week (Our home is less than a year old). I asked her about how to turn off the gas line and learned indeed that ours too was in the attic. We had a frightening view from our lanai of the home that burned - before we knew it was a home my husband said it looked like a gas line exploded. Hope that we get some answers to your questions.
Maybe that's why TV stopped putting gas in the new houses??????

[samhass]

Fran, there was a class action suit filed that concerned the gas lines in the attics. That was one reason we had the rods installed.

[SteveFromNY]

Maybe that's why TV stopped putting gas in the new houses??????


I'll bet it was a factor in the decision.

[Sidney Lanier]

We have gas appliances in our house and, at the time we purchased, considered it a plus and never gave it a moment's thought. Rest assured now that we are giving it many moments' thought! Though we've only begun to look into it, I suspect that a properly installed lightning arresting system will not cost more than retrofitting a house to get rid of gas range, water heater, dryer, and furnace and replace all with electric. I could be wrong....

[barb1191]

We have gas appliances in our house and, at the time we purchased, considered it a plus and never gave it a moment's thought. Rest assured now that we are giving it many moments' thought! Though we've only begun to look into it, I suspect that a properly installed lightning arresting system will not cost more than retrofitting a house to get rid of gas range, water heater, dryer, and furnace and replace all with electric. I could be wrong....


Sure makes sense to me, Sid. That's exactly why we chose the lightning arresting system asap which made sense to Bill and me. Our choice has always been gas. We've always had a monitor for leakage, however, now living in the lightning capital puts a whole different slant on the priorities.

I'm still waiting for a contract to sign. They did email me a quote. Think I mentioned that it was something around $1500 and we live in a corner lot Colony Patio Villa. I would assume that would be a standard fee for this model, although they did mention if there a lot of plantings, it could run more. Although on our corner lot we do have more plantings that are not at all near the house; they run alongside the corner of the street side where there's more land.

I gather that that horrible lightning strike gave many to pause and change some priortizing of plans. I also asked TECO if the protectors we have with them will have any bearing on he lightning arrestors. They said not all all; no problem; everything is compatible and not any danger.

Now I'm very anxious to get it done and I guess they have been swamped, no doubt, since the lightning hit and the devestating damage a total loss to that particular home. How very sad. Even worse, it was the third time that very house was hit, or so I hear or read.

barb

[KayakerNC]

The Villages, Florida

Curious. Will a Home Owners Policy give a discount if you have lightening rods installed?

Or, will they raise rates on TV homes with attic gas lines?

Or do the insurance companies not consider it a problem?