Side Striping Multi-Modal Paths

[EnglishJW]

�Comments from numerous, previously silent, residents that in summary say the cost is too high, not justified, and the need hasn�t been demonstrated,� Project Wide Advisory Committee Chairman and CDD 6 Supervisor Peter Moeller said in an email to fellow supervisors.

I guess the $300,000 cost has gotten some serious attention.

[Mleeja]

Ouch! I just read the article on the other on-line new source. Where have these people been? If the folks compaining about cost of the thermoplastic had attened the meeting on Monday, they would understand why this is probably a better option. More visable, better reflectivity, and longer lasting.

I think whatever can be done to make the multimodal paths safer is worth the cost. Three dolllars per resident is not expensive. I'll throw in $4.00 if it will get the stripe down.

Let's see what position the POA takes now...

[kcrazorbackfan]

After the decision, I've started looking at the sidelines on the streets; if the streets are newer and the sidelines haven't been painted over and over, they are nice looking; if they have been painted over and over - THEY ARE UGLY and have a pretty good raised surface on them. We do not need these sidelines.

[golf2140]

Over 70,000 miles on two carts. I still don't see a problem with the paths. The folks crying should have been here before they widened the cart paths. Don't waste the money.

[Mleeja]

After the decision, I've started looking at the sidelines on the streets; if the streets are newer and the sidelines haven't been painted over and over, they are nice looking; if they have been painted over and over - THEY ARE UGLY and have a pretty good raised surface on them. We do not need these sidelines.

The stripping being discussed would be about the thickness of three sheets of paper. I doubt this would even be noticed in a cart, bike or walking. One of the drawbacks of the thermoplastic is when being replaced, it would need to be removed. One would not just put down another layer on top of the old.

However, thermoplastic will last much longer than paint and may be less expensive in the long term. This is what the district was commissioned to determine as the next step.

[justjim]

All I know for sure is a consulting engineer recommend not to do this stripping. If you weren't going to take the expert advise, why hire the engineer in the first place?

This doesn't make sense to me.

[Farmay]

All I know for sure is a consulting engineer (http://www.loveandbuyit.com) recommend not to do this stripping. If you weren't going to take the expert advise, why hire the engineer in the first place?

This doesn't make sense to me.

I think if stripping is done properly then there is no problem in it. What do you have to say about it?

[vette]

Over 70,000 miles on two carts. I still don't see a problem with the paths. The folks crying should have been here before they widened the cart paths. Don't waste the money.

Have to agree with golf2140 and the engineering firm that recommended not to stripe. If your vision is that bad that u can't see the path at night upgrade the headlights on your cart or better yet Don't drive at night. If you're that drunk that u can't see the path at night. Guess What!!

Bottom line you Can't legislate away stupidity... And stripes won't make it go away either!

[rustyp]

I would gladly contribute an extra $1.00 per year from our household. What a novel idea - legislatures spending my tax dollars on something I can see.

[red tail]

use the money where it is needed. as an example take a ride on the path between panama and rio grande.

[rubicon]

This is another one of those hasty decisions and if an engineer did not recommend it apparently one not well thought out. A $100, 000 to replace trees to $300, 000 for stripping pathways another $$...pretty soon your talking about serious money . I approached the POA explaining why stripping was not the saving grace issue and that their were several concerns not being addressed invoking an Occam's Razor approach. Never got a response?

Once that work is done it is going to require regular maintenance and more $$$ one can only hope it does help

[bagboy]

Ouch! I just read the article on the other on-line new source. Where have these people been? If the folks compaining about cost of the thermoplastic had attened the meeting on Monday, they would understand why this is probably a better option. More visable, better reflectivity, and longer lasting.

I think whatever can be done to make the multimodal paths safer is worth the cost. Three dolllars per resident is not expensive. I'll throw in $4.00 if it will get the stripe down.

Let's see what position the POA takes now...

It is only a better option to those who think they know more than traffic and public safety engineers and experts. Where were "those" in favor of striping when the safety experts said that the striping would not improve safety? In fact they went on to say that at least the center striping would make the MMPs more dangerous, not safer.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Total waste of money. It will do nothing. A center lane strip would be more helpful. Expect your monthly fees to go up!

[billethkid]

What some residents will have to learn is that there is not an endless supply of money to keep adding expenses to a budget that for all practical purposes has a fixed source (you and me and our annual contribution).

The attitude of some stating it is only $4 more per month per person is seriously flawed thinking. It is absolutely an option.....as long as residents understand to free up $300,000 from the budgeted amount to do striping of cart paths then something else amounting to $300,000 has to be deleted from the budget. If not then there will be an increase in amenity or what ever fees contribute to the funding.

The single biggest threat to TV life style remaining as what we all bought into is run away expenses with increasing resident fees to accomodate the whims of some number of residents.

I have personally been involved with transition teams shifting ownership from developers to residents. The developer, like it or not has a budget discipline. They also have many expenses that they subsidize that go away when they do. Once the developer is out of the picture then residents find "things" they would like to have added, improved, made bigger, prettier and on and on.
Anything is possible. As long as residents understand there is only a fixed amount of money available (from the residents). Adding a projedt not bugeted means taking something else away OR raise fees. Some delude themselves into having a special assessment for their favorite project ending up with the normal fees plus the assessment (which may go away after some specified time period...but usuallly do not).

I take the time to spell out my views on the subject because far too many people think a community can absorb all the costs. The can....when the fees are increased.

How about fees going from the roughly $300 per month we pay now to double that amount? No way that could happen here in TV? Yes it can and will if we do not DEMAND a fiscal financial responsibility. I have lived through a doubling of annual fees after a departing developer in the past.

Maybe while TV developer is still involved we might not experience any assessment or increases.....maybe.....$300,000 is a lot of money that has to come from some place.

If it were 100% resident funded are you willing to make monthly payments to have it done? If not then you better make yourself heard.

The silent majority can ONLY LOSE!!

I vote no striping. The end does not justify the a $300,000 expenditure or $30,000 either! Just drive the paths as some of us have for the last 12-20 years of being here. Don't get sucked into an emotional sales job!

[OldManTime]

�Comments from numerous, previously silent, residents that in summary say the cost is too high, not justified, and the need hasn�t been demonstrated,� Project Wide Advisory Committee Chairman and CDD 6 Supervisor Peter Moeller said in an email to fellow supervisors.

I guess the $300,000 cost has gotten some serious attention.

The striping will help a lot, drunk drivers can follow the line in the dark and fog, thats what we used them for when we were teens. Less trees getting hit :icon_twisted:

[Topspinmo]

Please, lots of money wasted on planting Perennials. Three time year in and around roundabout. Talking about unsafe and waste of money when planting low growing less maintenance annual would be just as pretty and hundreds of thousands cheaper. Now for my opinion, side striping seems overboard center line striping not bad idea. But it won't make difference with DS drivers.

[justjim]

I think if stripping is done properly then there is no problem in it. What do you have to say about it?

What the consulting engineer was saying in "terms" we understand: You can spend $300,000 and it won't hurt anything but it won't improve safety on the multi-modal paths in my expert opinion. In others words, you are throwing away $300,000 plus you will have a continuing maintenance issue down the road. 300,000 here and 300,000 there and soon it adds up to real money.

Sound like a committee decision similar to the committee that was designing a new breed of horse and came up with the camel.

[rubicon]

What the consulting engineer was saying in "terms" we understand: You can spend $300,000 and it won't hurt anything but it won't improve safety on the multi-modal paths in my expert opinion. In others words, you are throwing away $300,000 plus you will have a continuing maintenance issue down the road. 300,000 here and 300,000 there and soon it adds up to real money.

Sound like a committee decision similar to the committee that was designing a new breed of horse and came up with the camel.

what I said in post #11 btk amplified in post #14 and you validate here

What this topic validates is when the government chooses for you they always choose wrong. This is another example of using taxpayers money foolishly because government people believe money grows on trees...well at least in taxpayers (amenities payers) bank accounts...and these same government people still haven't let go of the indoor pool thingy

[dbussone]

What some residents will have to learn is that there is not an endless supply of money to keep adding expenses to a budget that for all practical purposes has a fixed source (you and me and our annual contribution).



The attitude of some stating it is only $4 more per month per person is seriously flawed thinking. It is absolutely an option.....as long as residents understand to free up $300,000 from the budgeted amount to do striping of cart paths then something else amounting to $300,000 has to be deleted from the budget. If not then there will be an increase in amenity or what ever fees contribute to the funding.



The single biggest threat to TV life style remaining as what we all bought into is run away expenses with increasing resident fees to accomodate the whims of some number of residents.



I have personally been involved with transition teams shifting ownership from developers to residents. The developer, like it or not has a budget discipline. They also have many expenses that they subsidize that go away when they do. Once the developer is out of the picture then residents find "things" they would like to have added, improved, made bigger, prettier and on and on.

Anything is possible. As long as residents understand there is only a fixed amount of money available (from the residents). Adding a projedt not bugeted means taking something else away OR raise fees. Some delude themselves into having a special assessment for their favorite project ending up with the normal fees plus the assessment (which may go away after some specified time period...but usuallly do not).



I take the time to spell out my views on the subject because far too many people think a community can absorb all the costs. The can....when the fees are increased.



How about fees going from the roughly $300 per month we pay now to double that amount? No way that could happen here in TV? Yes it can and will if we do not DEMAND a fiscal financial responsibility. I have lived through a doubling of annual fees after a departing developer in the past.



Maybe while TV developer is still involved we might not experience any assessment or increases.....maybe.....$300,000 is a lot of money that has to come from some place.



If it were 100% resident funded are you willing to make monthly payments to have it done? If not then you better make yourself heard.



The silent majority can ONLY LOSE!!



I vote no striping. The end does not justify the a $300,000 expenditure or $30,000 either! Just drive the paths as some of us have for the last 12-20 years of being here. Don't get sucked into an emotional sales job!


What BTK just said. Amen!

[PennBF]

I have not seen the residents of CDD 4 going bankrupt because they installed center stripping on their cart paths. Agreed, they did not do curb painting which may not have been needed. Simple center stripping is not "rocket science". It is simply using the proper equipment to paint the stripes. :mornincoffee:

[ditka41]

No more stripes are needed! If you can't see, stay home.

Everybody can think of something they'd like to have money spent on, ----as long as it's not their own money. The developer has provided a wonderful place to live with great features. We need to stop complaining.

[Polar Bear]

No more stripes are needed! If you can't see, stay home...

Just for the record, I have a graduate degree in transportation engineering, worked in the field for over thirty years, and have excellent vision, including night-vision. I have never had a significant problem driving our trails. That being said...

I have driven paths at night that made it very difficult to see path boundaries and approaching medians. Especially considering the nature of our population, I think the markings have value and are a reasonable use of our money.

[dbussone]

Just for the record, I have a graduate degree in transportation engineering, worked in the field for over thirty years, and have excellent vision, including night-vision. I have never had a significant problem driving our trails. That being said...

I have driven paths at night that made it very difficult to see path boundaries and approaching medians. Especially considering the nature of our population, I think the markings have value and are a reasonable use of our money.


Polar - as an obvious expert, would you recommend side or center stripes?
Thank you.

[same]

With road markings, like a street, automobile drivers may think the multi-models are an exit to a neighborhood. We have all seen automobiles on the paths, now with street markings on the paths they will just be making an honest mistake especially on those dark rainy nites when all they can see is a road that looks like just like another street.

[Polar Bear]

Polar - as an obvious expert, would you recommend side or center stripes?...
First of all, I am not an expert specifically on striping of multi-modal paths. I'm not sure experts in that field even exist. Widespread use of multi-modal paths does not exist...yet. Very few other places, if any, have them as a major mode of transportation such as in The Villages. That makes for very little data. That being said...

The only problem I see with the paths in TV is lack of visibility in certain limited sections of the path at night. For this reason, I think striping on the edges of the path...and better markings of some medians...has merit.

While I haven't thoroughly considered possible pros/cons of center-line striping, at this time I don't see any obvious benefit.

[Bryan]

The multi-modal pathway marking issue is complex.

To start with, you can't fix STUPID. Nothing we do will address stupid cart drivers (drunk, blind, speedy, reckless, ill mannered, etc.) but it may make the paths safer for the rest of us.

One correction to a previous post, someone mentioned $300,000 cost per month - that is incorrect. $300,000 is an estimated one-time cost. Yes, "one time" is a misnomer as 6 to 8 years down the road the stripping will need to be replaced. And $300,000 will all have to be paid in Year One but nothing for the next 5 to 7 years. So, maybe $50,000 per year cost spread over 100,000 residents so maybe 50 cents per resident per year - not unreasonable IMHO.

I am not a great believer in coincidences. I am sure it was only by coincidence that our traffic engineer, Kimley-Horn, recommended against side markings and then said “but if you do it anyway, use this very expensive method”. They had no clue it might cause a cost backlash!

Once real costs of these markings became known, the naysayers and penny pinchers came out of the woodwork in droves to fight multi-modal pathway marking.

So here we are today, reviewing a done deal. Is this “Government by the Loudest”? Where were all these concerned naysayers and penny pinchers when their elected officials held open government meetings to get resident input? Where were they when all the resident surveys were taken by resident associations and local media? Where were they when engineering reports were reviewed and discussed at public meetings?

Not interested – that’s where!

Now money is actually being spent. Here they come!

Do you really think their concerns are for resident safety, resident peace of mind or comfort levels? Or do you suspect their late-arising concerns may all be pocketbook related?

Consider the source. Lots of last minute, after-the-fact objections to a well thought out, well executed plan. I’m more than a little suspicious of motivations for the objections..

[looneycat]

just have to mention that the new led headlights can be blinding at night as most people don't have them aimed properly, looking down to avoid the glare is only helpful if there is something to follow after being blinded. I am all for striping....and I'm not dtunk or blind.

[twoplanekid]

...... Widespread use of multi-modal paths does not exist...yet. Very few other places, if any, have them as a major mode of transportation such as in The Villages. That makes for very little data. .....

I totally agree. If there are problems with the multi-modal paths that now need to be addressed, data needs to be collected and analyzed by professionals. If we can�t find professionals who are familiar with multi-modal paths then ask Ohio State :D or a Florida university to make a case study on path safety. Then we can examine the recommendations presented to us and decide if cost and quality of life issues are within reason.

[billethkid]

I have not seen the residents of CDD 4 going bankrupt because they installed center stripping on their cart paths. Agreed, they did not do curb painting which may not have been needed. Simple center stripping is not "rocket science". It is simply using the proper equipment to paint the stripes. :mornincoffee:

Are you willing to pay a special monthly fee to do it?

Remembering pennies make dollars and there will be more favorite non budgeted projects to follow.

No added value to do it, then what is to think about?

[DonH57]

Just for the record, I have a graduate degree in transportation engineering, worked in the field for over thirty years, and have excellent vision, including night-vision. I have never had a significant problem driving our trails. That being said...

I have driven paths at night that made it very difficult to see path boundaries and approaching medians. Especially considering the nature of our population, I think the markings have value and are a reasonable use of our money.

I do believe there are certain areas on some paths where the boundary of the path and grass are hard to determine especially on rainy nights and there are areas where the drainage is not to good and large puddles form. Some of those puddles you can't see till you are right up on them.

[ldj1938]

Have to agree with golf2140 and the engineering firm that recommended not to stripe. If your vision is that bad that u can't see the path at night upgrade the headlights on your cart or better yet Don't drive at night. If you're that drunk that u can't see the path at night. Guess What!!

Bottom line you Can't legislate away stupidity... And stripes won't make it go away either!

As an early tee-time golfer in the winter you are making the trip in the dark, possibly raining, trying not to run over the walkers on the wrong side of the cart path I support striping! How many of the cart path drivers that must drive with restricted visibility would support striping? Your response is based on very little experience in the real world.

[NavyNJ]

Interesting subject, to be sure. I'm usually in the "less is more" camp, but on this one, I might force myself to be in the "very limited is ok" group. Total center striping - No; Total side striping - No; A well thought out, value-add installation of strategically placed side stripes/markers (I prefer markers to stripes, everywhere!), combined with center markers near dangerous intersections/medians - Yes.

And there are other "golf cart" communities out there - just need to look a little and find them. Maybe establish some sort of dialogue with their community managers to see if they've crossed the same ground before - with another solution. The one shown at the link has been doing "golf carts" since at least the early 80's, maybe longer. And, at least in the one picture they post on their web site - no markings on their multi-use paths.

Peachtree City, GA (http://www.peachtree-city.org/index.aspx?NID=216)

[Bootcamp]

Look at how often you drive at night on the paths, and the weather presented a problem. Does it warrant, this kind of money. I don't think so!!!

[dbussone]

First of all, I am not an expert specifically on striping of multi-modal paths. I'm not sure experts in that field even exist. Widespread use of multi-modal paths does not exist...yet. Very few other places, if any, have them as a major mode of transportation such as in The Villages. That makes for very little data. That being said...

The only problem I see with the paths in TV is lack of visibility in certain limited sections of the path at night. For this reason, I think striping on the edges of the path...and better markings of some medians...has merit.

While I haven't thoroughly considered possible pros/cons of center-line striping, at this time I don't see any obvious benefit.


Thanks for sharing your knowledge I appreciate it.

[kcrazorbackfan]

What some residents will have to learn is that there is not an endless supply of money to keep adding expenses to a budget that for all practical purposes has a fixed source (you and me and our annual contribution).

The attitude of some stating it is only $4 more per month per person is seriously flawed thinking. It is absolutely an option.....as long as residents understand to free up $300,000 from the budgeted amount to do striping of cart paths then something else amounting to $300,000 has to be deleted from the budget. If not then there will be an increase in amenity or what ever fees contribute to the funding.

The single biggest threat to TV life style remaining as what we all bought into is run away expenses with increasing resident fees to accomodate the whims of some number of residents.

I have personally been involved with transition teams shifting ownership from developers to residents. The developer, like it or not has a budget discipline. They also have many expenses that they subsidize that go away when they do. Once the developer is out of the picture then residents find "things" they would like to have added, improved, made bigger, prettier and on and on.
Anything is possible. As long as residents understand there is only a fixed amount of money available (from the residents). Adding a projedt not bugeted means taking something else away OR raise fees. Some delude themselves into having a special assessment for their favorite project ending up with the normal fees plus the assessment (which may go away after some specified time period...but usuallly do not).

I take the time to spell out my views on the subject because far too many people think a community can absorb all the costs. The can....when the fees are increased.

How about fees going from the roughly $300 per month we pay now to double that amount? No way that could happen here in TV? Yes it can and will if we do not DEMAND a fiscal financial responsibility. I have lived through a doubling of annual fees after a departing developer in the past.

Maybe while TV developer is still involved we might not experience any assessment or increases.....maybe.....$300,000 is a lot of money that has to come from some place.

If it were 100% resident funded are you willing to make monthly payments to have it done? If not then you better make yourself heard.

The silent majority can ONLY LOSE!!

I vote no striping. The end does not justify the a $300,000 expenditure or $30,000 either! Just drive the paths as some of us have for the last 12-20 years of being here. Don't get sucked into an emotional sales job!

:agree: NO, NO, NO to sideline striping. Stop the financial irresponsibility - $300,000 for side lining, $2,000,000 annually to replace the flowers at the intersections/roundabouts when FF plants would be just as nice. This irresponsibility goes on and on.

The majority of the carts that travel on the MMP's go 20 mph or less. If a person does not have the reaction time to suddenly stop their cart or safely correct the direction of their cart because of their inattention or even just their ability to pay attention to what their doing anymore, stop driving. Side lines are not going to correct ignorance and that's what causes most accidents.

STOP THE MADNESS.

[outlaw]

I love the new flowers every quarter. That was one of the factors for moving here.

[Happydaz]

Road striping can be very slippery. I remember when I was motorcycling I avoided the stripes like the plaque. At intersections when I was coming to a stop I was very careful not to put a foot down on a painted stripe lest my foot slip and I would fall over. For that reason, if the cart paths are striped I will not ride my bicycle on any side stripe or center stripe, so rather than staying to the far right I will be riding in the middle of the lane which will make it more difficult for carts to pass me. Walkers will also have to be careful about the stripes. Striping all the paths will make them golf cart paths. You rarely see walkers on the paths anymore and most of the bicyclists are taking to the streets so I guess it won't be that much of an issue.

[Hank N Judy]

Look at how often you drive at night on the paths, and the weather presented a problem. Does it warrant, this kind of money. I don't think so!!!

If the people that say they can't see at night would adjust there headlights to the path instead of shining in the ski they would be able to see

[Polar Bear]

If the people that say they can't see at night would adjust there headlights to the path instead of shining in the ski they would be able to see
Nope. At least not always.

My headlights are adjusted properly. The areas I found questionable were those where there was a lack of contrast between dark surfaces adjacent to the path and the path itself. Often this was in an area where the path curved back and forth, sometimes more sharply and frequently than average. The headlights sometimes were not even pointed toward the upcoming curved segment until the cart was almost at that segment.

[Hank N Judy]

This is no different then driving on the interstate in fog and following the white line into the back of a tractor trailer. If you can,t see slow up

[JoMar]

As an early tee-time golfer in the winter you are making the trip in the dark, possibly raining, trying not to run over the walkers on the wrong side of the cart path I support striping! How many of the cart path drivers that must drive with restricted visibility would support striping? Your response is based on very little experience in the real world.

Why would you drive in the dark, possibly raining, or are visually impaired. I know that stupid is real world but nothing you put on the path will fix that.

[Polar Bear]

This is no different then driving on the interstate in fog and following the white line into the back of a tractor trailer. If you can,t see slow up

Well, if you call driving in fog and driving with no fog the same, I guess you're right.

Can't argue with the "if you can't see, slow up" part though.

[JoMar]

:agree: NO, NO, NO to sideline striping. Stop the financial irresponsibility - $300,000 for side lining, $2,000,000 annually to replace the flowers at the intersections/roundabouts when FF plants would be just as nice. This irresponsibility goes on and on.

The majority of the carts that travel on the MMP's go 20 mph or less. If a person does not have the reaction time to suddenly stop their cart or safely correct the direction of their cart because of their inattention or even just their ability to pay attention to what their doing anymore, stop driving. Side lines are not going to correct ignorance and that's what causes most accidents.

STOP THE MADNESS.

So, since I suspect the majority would disagree with you and actually enjoy the change of "seasons" that occur through the plantings and have a respect for the investments made to this community to keep it clean and visually pleasing.......it begs the question, why are you here? There has to be an over 55 Community that would fit your views better than this one. As has been said many times, TV isn't for everyone.

[Shimpy]

Total waste of money. It will do nothing. A center lane strip would be more helpful. Expect your monthly fees to go up!


I agree.....The sides of the paths are now lined with a concrete curb that is level with the path and makes a good side border to see. The only thing the side stripe would do is make it brighter. I'd rather have a center line.

[Mleeja]

There has been a lot of good conversation here both for and against. Please show up at the meeting on 7/20. Make your voice heard.

[bagboy]

Good old Don Deacon from CDD 4 explaining the backlash from Villagers regarding the 300K they want to spend on striping (this time it's striping) is because of public misperception . I take that as we the home owners are too stupid to understand the cost and necessity of this "pet" project proposed by certain district supervisors.
When it has to be explained that it will "only" cost each homeowner a dollar or two in order to justify the expense, there is a serious flaw in their project, their idea of how the Villagers money should be spent, and THEIR perception of the intelligence quotient of most Villagers.

[Hank N Judy]

I agree.....The sides of the paths are now lined with a concrete curb that is level with the path and makes a good side border to see. The only thing the side stripe would do is make it brighter. I'd rather have a center line.

The thing I see wrong with the center line is: if someone is walking or biking their are people that would think, oh solid white line I can't cross that. Now we have people being run over. If your eye site is so poor you have to follow a white line I am sure they won't see someone walking either. Also this is not a one time thing. Once something is painted it will have to be repainted. Again I will say if you are having trouble seeing, slow down.

[Polar Bear]

The thing I see wrong with the center line is: if someone is walking or biking their are people that would think, oh solid white line I can't cross that...

I'm not sold on the benefits of a center line either. But I'm not sure I see your point here. I ride a bike on the path (with the traffic) and walk on the path (against the traffic). I never cross to the other side either way.

[Hank N Judy]

If someone is walking or biking a golf cart would have to cross the center line to pass them.

[CFrance]

If someone is walking or biking a golf cart would have to cross the center line to pass them.
The "line" down the center wouldn't be solid, is how I understood it. It would be broken, meaning you can pass. I thought the only solid lines would have been on either side, so people could see the path better in the dark.

[DougB]

The "line" down the center wouldn't be solid, is how I understood it. It would be broken, meaning you can pass. I thought the only solid lines would have been on either side, so people could see the path better in the dark.

You may pass if there is a solid white line.

--Broken white line: cross freely.
--Solid white line: crossing discouraged, but not prohibited.
--A double, solid white line: crossing prohibited.

[looneycat]

Broken White Line
A broken white line separates two lanes traveling in the same direction. Once you have signaled, and if it is safe to do so, you may cross this line when changing lanes.


Solid White Line
A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes of traffic moving in the same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this line, but you should not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard.

the above is from the florida drivers manual....passing per se is not allowed with a solid white line nor is the word 'should' a carte blanche.

[CFrance]

Broken White Line
A broken white line separates two lanes traveling in the same direction. Once you have signaled, and if it is safe to do so, you may cross this line when changing lanes.


Solid White Line
A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes of traffic moving in the same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this line, but you should not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard.

the above is from the florida drivers manual....passing per se is not allowed with a solid white line nor is the word 'should' a carte blanche.
I guess the hazard would be running into the guy in front of you because he's walking/biking/carting slower than you are.

[outlaw]

Ride your cart in CDD4. You'll like it.

[pfarineau]

I believe that the most important question to be asked (and I haven't seen it asked yet) is "what do the public safety records show about accidents at night or during inclement weather"? How many accidents have occurred on multimodal paths in the last five (5) years and what was the severity of the accidents? What was the cause of the accidents? How many accident victims said the accident was caused by poor visibility? When these statistics are revealed I believe we will have the answer as to whether or not striping is needed.

[Alphorn]

Has anyone considered that many of the carts sold on campus have highly tinted windshields? I had trouble seeing at night and if the top half was folded down and/or I had sunglasses on, as it got darker, I couldn't see crosswalks. I had to make quite a fuss to get a reasonable windshield. I can think of better uses for money that are attempting to compensate for carts that are not set up for night driving.

[Dan9871]

The Districts had just that study done by an engineering firm and they found that the accidents stat's showed that side stripping would not make the paths any safer.


I believe that the most important question to be asked (and I haven't seen it asked yet) is "what do the public safety records show about accidents at night or during inclement weather"? How many accidents have occurred on multimodal paths in the last five (5) years and what was the severity of the accidents? What was the cause of the accidents? How many accident victims said the accident was caused by poor visibility? When these statistics are revealed I believe we will have the answer as to whether or not striping is needed.

[Flflyer]

Been here 10 years and never had an accident. Don't do the speed that your headlights can't illuminate and there is no need for stripping.

[EnglishJW]

What some residents will have to learn is that there is not an endless supply of money to keep adding expenses to a budget that for all practical purposes has a fixed source (you and me and our annual contribution).

The attitude of some stating it is only $4 more per month per person is seriously flawed thinking. It is absolutely an option.....as long as residents understand to free up $300,000 from the budgeted amount to do striping of cart paths then something else amounting to $300,000 has to be deleted from the budget. If not then there will be an increase in amenity or what ever fees contribute to the funding.

The single biggest threat to TV life style remaining as what we all bought into is run away expenses with increasing resident fees to accomodate the whims of some number of residents.

I have personally been involved with transition teams shifting ownership from developers to residents. The developer, like it or not has a budget discipline. They also have many expenses that they subsidize that go away when they do. Once the developer is out of the picture then residents find "things" they would like to have added, improved, made bigger, prettier and on and on.
Anything is possible. As long as residents understand there is only a fixed amount of money available (from the residents). Adding a projedt not bugeted means taking something else away OR raise fees. Some delude themselves into having a special assessment for their favorite project ending up with the normal fees plus the assessment (which may go away after some specified time period...but usuallly do not).

I take the time to spell out my views on the subject because far too many people think a community can absorb all the costs. The can....when the fees are increased.

How about fees going from the roughly $300 per month we pay now to double that amount? No way that could happen here in TV? Yes it can and will if we do not DEMAND a fiscal financial responsibility. I have lived through a doubling of annual fees after a departing developer in the past.

Maybe while TV developer is still involved we might not experience any assessment or increases.....maybe.....$300,000 is a lot of money that has to come from some place.

If it were 100% resident funded are you willing to make monthly payments to have it done? If not then you better make yourself heard.

The silent majority can ONLY LOSE!!

I vote no striping. The end does not justify the a $300,000 expenditure or $30,000 either! Just drive the paths as some of us have for the last 12-20 years of being here. Don't get sucked into an emotional sales job!

Thanks for your work & effort. I agree with your comments.

[EnglishJW]

I love the new flowers every quarter. That was one of the factors for moving here.

I agree - it is part of what makes TV a very special place.

[EnglishJW]

I'm not sold on the benefits of a center line either. But I'm not sure I see your point here. I ride a bike on the path (with the traffic) and walk on the path (against the traffic). I never cross to the other side either way.

Given your experience and expertise, I have a question regarding your walking direction. I was under the impression that walking AGAINST the flow of traffic (at least on a road) was not recommended. Having said that, we typically walk against the traffic flow where we live in NJ. There are no street lights and no curbs. The area is heavily wooded and we do indeed feel safer doing just what you do (walking against and biking with traffic).

My second question is what do golf car drivers on the paths think. Should people walking be going with or against the flow of traffic?

[Polar Bear]

Given your experience and expertise, I have a question regarding your walking direction. I was under the impression that walking AGAINST the flow of traffic (at least on a road) was not recommended...
I walk against traffic and firmly believe that is the safest way.

From my experience, walking against traffic is generally accepted as the best way on normal streets. Some feel it changes on a multi-modal path, but I don't agree. The most basic and important principle imho...I do not want to be surprised from behind. I will deal with whatever is coming my way...in front of me...on the side I am walking.

[Hank N Judy]

I agree 100% no stripping

[outlaw]

What about curbs? Anyone have an opinion on curbs on the MMP?

[BradnKathy]

There have been ZERO accidents due to lack of side stripes in the villages, so why are we wasting this money now and in the future? Instead of a peaceful drive in our golf carts we will now feel like a busy road. How unfortunate and sad. Also where was the public discussion on this. Plenty about center stripes that was wisely killed but the money spenders couldn't let it lie.

[Bogie Shooter]

Given your experience and expertise, I have a question regarding your walking direction. I was under the impression that walking AGAINST the flow of traffic (at least on a road) was not recommended. Having said that, we typically walk against the traffic flow where we live in NJ. There are no street lights and no curbs. The area is heavily wooded and we do indeed feel safer doing just what you do (walking against and biking with traffic).

My second question is what do golf car drivers on the paths think. Should people walking be going with or against the flow of traffic?

I think the concept of walking on the left has been introduced in kindergarten and still holds to be true.

[Topspinmo]

So, since I suspect the majority would disagree with you and actually enjoy the change of "seasons" that occur through the plantings and have a respect for the investments made to this community to keep it clean and visually pleasing.......it begs the question, why are you here? There has to be an over 55 Community that would fit your views better than this one. As has been said many times, TV isn't for everyone.

I suspect the majority may not?
So some don't agree with you, we should move. I DON'T think so! Planting dyeing flowers in middle road way is waste of money and dangous for the workers along with the shrubs that over grown and blocking traffic views.
when entering roundabout our eyes should be on the road.

[Polar Bear]

I suspect the majority may not?...

Then again, they may.

[vette]

I believe that the most important question to be asked (and I haven't seen it asked yet) is "what do the public safety records show about accidents at night or during inclement weather"? How many accidents have occurred on multimodal paths in the last five (5) years and what was the severity of the accidents? What was the cause of the accidents? How many accident victims said the accident was caused by poor visibility? When these statistics are revealed I believe we will have the answer as to whether or not striping is needed.

AMEN!! and how refreshing to hear! Instead of govt officials telling me, (in their opinion) what I need; just show me the facts so I can decide for myself.

[Topspinmo]

Then again, they may.

Then again, they may not when it hits their pocket books. Ever notice how the higher priced the area the Flowers are prettier and more abundant?

[Bogie Shooter]

Then again, they may not when it hits their pocket books. Ever notice how the higher priced the area the Flowers are prettier and more abundant?

What does this mean?

[outlaw]

I suspect the majority may not?
So some don't agree with you, we should move. I DON'T think so! Planting dyeing flowers in middle road way is waste of money and dangous for the workers along with the shrubs that over grown and blocking traffic views.
when entering roundabout our eyes should be on the road.

However, it does give all of us the opportunity to try out single lane RBs. Just the other day, when the workers were replanting around the RBs, the traffic cones converted the RBs to single lane. I liked it. Smooth flow.

[outlaw]

Then again, they may not when it hits their pocket books. Ever notice how the higher priced the area the Flowers are prettier and more abundant?

You have to pay to play. The flower changing has been going on for a long time. It is part of TV.

[villagetinker]

Back to the striping issue, according to the unnamed news source, the price may have gone up to an ESTIMATED $392,000, and it was stressed this is an estimate, and does not include continued maintenance.....

[Polar Bear]

...Ever notice how the higher priced the area the Flowers are prettier and more abundant?

No.

[Challenger]

I believe that the most important question to be asked (and I haven't seen it asked yet) is "what do the public safety records show about accidents at night or during inclement weather"? How many accidents have occurred on multimodal paths in the last five (5) years and what was the severity of the accidents? What was the cause of the accidents? How many accident victims said the accident was caused by poor visibility? When these statistics are revealed I believe we will have the answer as to whether or not striping is needed.

Right on Colonel, but why would you want to have facts to make a decision?? Rumors, Inuendo and conspiracy theories are much more pertinent to making good choices, or so it seems from many posts and threads here.:throwtomatoes:

[oot]

I put in my vote for YES on the striping. It would help in bad weather, or when headlights from other carts or cars are coming at you. There is no point of reference to use in the dark when you look down and having those stripes would help.

I hear comments that people are too drunk, too old, or cannot see, and that is the problem. Well, I don't drink, only wear glasses to read, and have not reached the age of 60 yet and I still have a tough time at night.

So yes, I would be willing to pay extra to make it safer for all. All the money they spent on hiring experts could have already paid for part of the project. The simple survey showed the majority felt some type of striping is needed. I don't think all those "yes" votes were out there to just spend money needlessly. It showed many who drive the paths at night are concerned about safety.

I wonder just how many of the experts making recommendations actually drove those paths at night........

[CFrance]

I put in my vote for YES on the striping. It would help in bad weather, or when headlights from other carts or cars are coming at you. There is no point of reference to use in the dark when you look down and having those stripes would help.

I hear comments that people are too drunk, too old, or cannot see, and that is the problem. Well, I don't drink, only wear glasses to read, and have not reached the age of 60 yet and I still have a tough time at night.

So yes, I would be willing to pay extra to make it safer for all. All the money they spent on hiring experts could have already paid for part of the project. The simple survey showed the majority felt some type of striping is needed. I don't think all those "yes" votes were out there to just spend money needlessly. It showed many who drive the paths at night are concerned about safety.

I wonder just how many of the experts making recommendations actually drove those paths at night........

Not only that... from what I read, their engineering expert thought that striping the paths would cause drivers to feel it was a cart-only path and thus not give way to walkers and cyclists. My opinion on that theory is that the people who don't give way to them now would still not give way, and the people who do give way are not going to suddenly become part of the my-cart-path-only gang. The engineer never did prove that striping would not make the paths safer.

We don't have a cart, but safety is one area I don't mind spending a few dollars a year on for the rest of my life.

Covering a pool... meh; don't spend my money on that kind of thing.

[billethkid]

The problem continues tO be the stripping in no way is going to change users driving habits, hence the biggest safety issue will not be solved by stripping.
The same types of accidents will continue.

[outlaw]

At any rate, stripping on the MMPs is likely to get you arrested.

[CFrance]

At any rate, stripping on the MMPs is likely to get you arrested.
Good way to bring that up. Stripe=striping; strip=stripping
Please don't strip on the striped paths. We've had enough of that in other locations!:boom:

[mickey100]

The problem continues tO be the stripping in no way is going to change users driving habits, hence the biggest safety issue will not be solved by stripping.
The same types of accidents will continue.

That is true. If the cause of the majority of night time or rainy weather accidents was driver error, then clearly striping isn't going to reduce the accident rate. You can do all sorts of things and spend all sorts of money to "make the roads safer". But at some point, those in charge have to weigh pros of spending money with the benefits you will accrue. Its called benefit cost ratio. There are a lot of needs in The Villages vying for our dollars. The powers that be hired engineers experienced in traffic studies and apparently they deemed the striping unnecessary. The engineers are experts. They do these studies all the time. They've been trained and have many years of experience. Its time time to accept their analysis and move on.

[Chi-Town]

I think that anything that helps people drive better in low light is a good thing. Night vision decreases with age and we're all aging. One thing for sure, the reflectors that were put in south of 466 at curves, underpasses, and islands are excellent.

[DonH57]

I think that anything that helps people drive better in low light is a good thing. Night vision decreases with age and we're all aging. One thing for sure, the reflectors that were put in south of 466 at curves, underpasses, and islands are excellent.

I think the markings you mention would be very helpful but I feel continuous side and center line striping would be a total waste of money. I'll admit I didn't originally feel that way.

[Challenger]

I think the markings you mention would be very helpful but I feel continuous side and center line striping would be a total waste of money. I'll admit I didn't originally feel that way.

The reflectors south of 466 work very well and are only necessary on curves.
they must be chesper than full striping.

[billethkid]

I think that anything that helps people drive better in low light is a good thing. Night vision decreases with age and we're all aging. One thing for sure, the reflectors that were put in south of 466 at curves, underpasses, and islands are excellent.

The strping would indeed increase visibility FOR SOME.
The striping will in no way help people drive better.
They will in fact drive exactly like they do today. And the same types and numbers of accidents will continue without decrease.

The issue is in fact the way people drive!

[Polar Bear]

The strping would indeed increase visibility FOR SOME.
The striping will in no way help people drive better...
Not sure I follow your logic there. Improved visibility will not help some people drive better? Hmmm.

[buzzy]

A while back there was a link posted to the Kimley-Horn study results, in a .pdf document. I wish I had saved it, because I can't find the link now. Anyway, the accident reports for the last several years showed that there was an average of three accidents a year during night and poor visibility. So, it's not like The Villages has to take immediate and drastic action to save lives.

[billethkid]

Not sure I follow your logic there. Improved visibility will not help some people drive better? Hmmm.

The rest will continue to drive just like they do now....hence my use of benefit to "some".

I feel like a broken record tonight.....ther striping is not going to change the way people drive.

If they drive the same....accidents and injuries will not be reduced or eliminated.

[CFrance]

I agree it is not going to make anyone drive any better, but for people with vision problems, it might prevent some accidents. Not all accidents happen because people are driving poorly. If it starts teeming rain on your way home, or you hit a patch of fog in the morning, striping showing the outlines of the path would be of help.

[Polar Bear]

...I feel like a broken record tonight.....ther striping is not going to change the way people drive...

I still don't get your point. Seat belts and various other vehicle and travel-way features don't change the way people drive either. All they do is enhance safety. That's the intent of striping.

[CFrance]

I still don't get your point. Seat belts and various other vehicle and travel-way features don't change the way people drive either. All they do is enhance safety. That's the intent of striping.
That's what I was trying to say. Thanks, Polar Bear, for saying it so much better.

[Polar Bear]

I agree it is not going to make anyone drive any better, but for people with vision problems, it might prevent some accidents. Not all accidents happen because people are driving poorly. If it starts teeming rain on your way home, or you hit a patch of fog in the morning, striping showing the outlines of the path would be of help.

Actually, CFrance, I think you stated it very clearly. :)

[Barefoot]

A while back there was a link posted to the Kimley-Horn study results, in a .pdf document. I wish I had saved it, because I can't find the link now. Anyway, the accident reports for the last several years showed that there was an average of three accidents a year during night and poor visibility. So, it's not like The Villages has to take immediate and drastic action to save lives.
Buzzy, if you find the link to the study results, please post it.
There is a survey today in the online newspaper. I wonder if the officials are interested in the outcome.

[oot]

I agree it is not going to make anyone drive any better, but for people with vision problems, it might prevent some accidents. Not all accidents happen because people are driving poorly. If it starts teeming rain on your way home, or you hit a patch of fog in the morning, striping showing the outlines of the path would be of help.

I agree CFrance.

Another way to look at it might be a night like tonight. You are in a very heavy rain and dark conditions or fog. You get to choose from one of two routes. The first route would be a dark road with no lights or markings on the road. Your other choice would be driving down a road like 27/441 with lights and reflectors and markings on the road - but it will add an additional 15 minutes to your drive. Which road would you take? Which road would make you feel safer?

[mickey100]

You are all talking about "it might make someone feel safer" or it "might prevent accidents". That is not protocol for spending $300,000 plus and associated maintenance fees for something that has not been demonstrated by statistics to offer a decrease in accident rates. That is the way engineers make decisions - on decreasing actual accidents, not on maybes. If there had been a definable accident history attributable to lack of visibility and striping, it would be a different story.

[outlaw]

Buzzy, if you find the link to the study results, please post it.
There is a survey today in the online newspaper. I wonder if the officials are interested in the outcome.

I hope not. Online polls are easy to manipulate. I just voted 4 times on that poll.

[pfarineau]

The primary issues for striping the Multi-Use Trails are safety and visibility. However the Kimley-Horn professional engineering study, for which we paid over $7,000.00 to conduct, does not support striping. In addition, four years of data from our Villages Public Safety Department also does not support the need for striping. The Villages News.com survey says that 59% of Villagers do NOT support stripping. Only 12 accidents with injuries have occurred in 4 years which averages 3 accidents per year during the dusk to dawn periods of time. Visibility is not an issue since the majority of accidents (53 of the 65) occurred during the hours of 9AM to 7PM. A Villages Public Safety employee who was involved with the collection of this data has stated that the majority of these accidents were caused by CARELESSNESS.
At the CDD5 meeting on Friday of this week the room had a significant number of attendees who heard the proceedings concerning the stripping issue. Only two individuals spoke and both were NOT in favor of stripping. I was one of those who spoke. There were no individuals who spoke in support of stripping. In spite of the discussion the entire 5 members of CDD5 board voted to support the stripping of the Multi-Use trails. This tells me all 5 Supervisors chose to ignore the findings of The Villages Public Safety Department, and the Kimley-Horn report. Without supporting facts and data, it would be a breach of the Project Wide Advisory Council�s fiduciary responsibility for residents in CDD 5 thru 10 to finance this very expensive ($300,000.00) project. I respectfully request that you vote to NOT stripe the Multi-Use Trails.
The final recommendation on whether or not to do stripping on the Multi-Use trails will be discussed at a meeting at 9:00 AM at the Savannah Center. If you agree that funding this project is NOT a good idea I would suggest that you attend this meeting. Those who favor stripping will be there �en mass� and if you are a member of the �silent majority� who want your voices heard I would strongly recommend that you attend this extremely important meeting.

[Barefoot]

The final recommendation on whether or not to do stripping on the Multi-Use trails will be discussed at a meeting at 9:00 AM at the Savannah Center. If you agree that funding this project is NOT a good idea I would suggest that you attend this meeting. Those who favor stripping will be there “en mass” and if you are a member of the “silent majority” who want your voices heard I would strongly recommend that you attend this extremely important meeting.
It's interesting that this important issue has to be resolved in July when many residents are absent from The Villages, either traveling or seasonal residents. :shrug:

[dbussone]

It's interesting that this important issue has to be resolved in July when many residents are absent from The Villages, either traveling or seasonal residents. :shrug:


Amen, Bare, Amen

[outlaw]

You do realize this amounts to about $1 per year per household? My leisure time is worth a lot more than that.

[mickey100]

The primary issues for striping the Multi-Use Trails are safety and visibility. However the Kimley-Horn professional engineering study, for which we paid over $7,000.00 to conduct, does not support striping. In addition, four years of data from our Villages Public Safety Department also does not support the need for striping. The Villages News.com survey says that 59% of Villagers do NOT support stripping. Only 12 accidents with injuries have occurred in 4 years which averages 3 accidents per year during the dusk to dawn periods of time. Visibility is not an issue since the majority of accidents (53 of the 65) occurred during the hours of 9AM to 7PM. A Villages Public Safety employee who was involved with the collection of this data has stated that the majority of these accidents were caused by CARELESSNESS.
At the CDD5 meeting on Friday of this week the room had a significant number of attendees who heard the proceedings concerning the stripping issue. Only two individuals spoke and both were NOT in favor of stripping. I was one of those who spoke. There were no individuals who spoke in support of stripping. In spite of the discussion the entire 5 members of CDD5 board voted to support the stripping of the Multi-Use trails. This tells me all 5 Supervisors chose to ignore the findings of The Villages Public Safety Department, and the Kimley-Horn report. Without supporting facts and data, it would be a breach of the Project Wide Advisory Council�s fiduciary responsibility for residents in CDD 5 thru 10 to finance this very expensive ($300,000.00) project. I respectfully request that you vote to NOT stripe the Multi-Use Trails.
The final recommendation on whether or not to do stripping on the Multi-Use trails will be discussed at a meeting at 9:00 AM at the Savannah Center. If you agree that funding this project is NOT a good idea I would suggest that you attend this meeting. Those who favor stripping will be there �en mass� and if you are a member of the �silent majority� who want your voices heard I would strongly recommend that you attend this extremely important meeting.

Great post. It's nice to see some facts for a change.

[Mleeja]

It's interesting that this important issue has to be resolved in July when many residents are absent from The Villages, either traveling or seasonal residents. :shrug:

This "discusdion" started many months ago. Timing has it that the meetings are occuring in the summer. The snowbird owners can certainly participate by contacting their district representative. TOTV works outside the bubble....:icon_wink:

[Mleeja]

I would like to conduct an informal survey. Those who are against the striping is because of the cost? If the cost was $100,000 who you support. Is it "principle" in you think it is not needed? What would have to happen to change you position, a death on the multi-modal paths?

I can't understand why it is ok to change the flowers four times per year, but not improve safety for the users of the paths. I've yet to see the outrage of the flowers...

[rhodeislander]

There have only been 3 incidents per year on the paths at night and there were various causes. Most accidents happen during the day and on the roads or parking lots not paths.

I saw someone slip getting out of a sand trap yesterday. Lets add a ladder to each and put in a safety rail around the traps. It will only cost $2.00 per household. Good grief!

The consulting engineer said no! If you can't see at night don't drive or at least slow down.

[CFrance]

This "discusdion" started many months ago. Timing has it that the meetings are occuring in the summer. The snowbird owners can certainly participate by contacting their district representative. TOTV works outside the bubble....:icon_wink:
Timing can be rearranged. Bare makes a good point.

[CFrance]

There have only been 3 incidents per year on the paths at night and there were various causes. Most accidents happen during the day and on the roads or parking lots not paths.

I saw someone slip getting out of a sand trap yesterday. Lets add a ladder to each and put in a safety rail around the traps. It will only cost $2.00 per household. Good grief!

The consulting engineer said no! If you can't see at night don't drive or at least slow down.
And if a horrendous downpour comes out of nowhere while you're driving home at night and you can't see the path in the wet pitch dark, well then... so sad, too bad.

We've all been in situations where it was raining so hard we couldn't see out our car windshields even with the wipers going full bore. We didn't choose to go out in that weather, it just happened. There have been times when all I could see in the rain were the side and center lines. And pulling over in that situation is dangerous if those behind you can't see either.

A few reflectors or stripes thrown in here and there should have been built into the design to begin with when driving after dark became permitted. Not saying complete middle and side striping needs to be done, but something should be done. Three after-dark accidents a year is enough.

My take of what the consulting engineer said was not so much about safety as it was about not wanting carters to become more possessive of the paths over cyclers and joggers.

There has to be a compromise between enhancing safety and satisfying those who don't want to spend any money.

[Mleeja]

Timing can be rearranged. Bare makes a good point.

I guess I should ask if you attended the 7/6 meeting? I did. I got the distinct impression that taking no action was not an option. Yes timing is everything. For all you know the support for striping could be greater if all the snowbirds were here. It was a snowbird that first made me aware of this issue.

[CFrance]

I guess I should ask if you attended the 7/6 meeting? I did. I got the distinct impression that taking no action was not an option. Yes timing is everything. For all you know the support for striping could be greater if all the snowbirds were here. It was a snowbird that first made me aware of this issue.
I did not attend the meeting. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other over the striping or the cost involved. If it happens, fine; if it doesn't, I would hope for some compromise. But for such a large amount of money, it seems to me that this decision should be put off until the snowbird owners are back. With appropriate communication as to the reason for delaying the decision, I can't see anyone having a large objection.

[bagboy]

We traveled on the MMP along 466A from Buena Vista east towards Morse Blvd today. There are several splits in the path with a median in the center. I was thinking about the side striping, and my thought was had there been this striping along the MMP in this area, golf cart drivers would "own" the lane and walkers, joggers, and bikers alike be darned. And by the way, the skies opened before we reached Morse Blvd, visibility was what you might expect, I slowed down...and arrived safely to our destination.
During downpours and at night, if you aren't able to see to drive safely, no color of any type of stripe is going to help you. IMO, this isn't about safety for you and I, it is about district supervisors seeing just how far they can go with spending OUR money. This won't be the last "oh we know what's best for fellow Villagers " incident from these supervisors. Pay attention to those in favor of wreckless spending and watch what they want to spend money on next.

[CFrance]

We traveled on the MMP along 466A from Buena Vista east towards Morse Blvd today. There are several splits in the path with a median in the center. I was thinking about the side striping, and my thought was had there been this striping along the MMP in this area, golf cart drivers would "own" the lane and walkers, joggers, and bikers alike be darned. And by the way, the skies opened before we reached Morse Blvd, visibility was what you might expect, I slowed down...and arrived safely to our destination.
During downpours and at night, if you aren't able to see to drive safely, no color of any type of stripe is going to help you. IMO, this isn't about safety for you and I, it is about district supervisors seeing just how far they can go with spending OUR money. This won't be the last "oh we know what's best for fellow Villagers " incident from these supervisors. Pay attention to those in favor of wreckless spending and watch what they want to spend money on next.
Doubt seriously they're just trying to spend our money. I think they're honestly trying to do what the people wanted at the time.

If striping would make no difference in visibility, you wouldn't see it on roads and highways.

[Mleeja]

We traveled on the MMP along 466A from Buena Vista east towards Morse Blvd today. There are several splits in the path with a median in the center. I was thinking about the side striping, and my thought was had there been this striping along the MMP in this area, golf cart drivers would "own" the lane and walkers, joggers, and bikers alike be darned. And by the way, the skies opened before we reached Morse Blvd, visibility was what you might expect, I slowed down...and arrived safely to our destination.
During downpours and at night, if you aren't able to see to drive safely, no color of any type of stripe is going to help you. IMO, this isn't about safety for you and I, it is about district supervisors seeing just how far they can go with spending OUR money. This won't be the last "oh we know what's best for fellow Villagers " incident from these supervisors. Pay attention to those in favor of wreckless spending and watch what they want to spend money on next.

I can see it now. The district reps sitting in a back room smoking some cubans, saying, "let's see how we can screw the residents out of a $1.00 per year. Let's put stipes on the multi modal paths. That will show em who's incharge. We will make it safer for them! That will screw them!!!"

[Polar Bear]

...If striping would make no difference in visibility, you wouldn't see it on roads and highways.

Bingo.

[Kevin and Luci]

I have read a majority of the post on this topic. I don't have facts to support this, but don't we have more miles of neighborhood roads than paths? Will those all be striped as well? How will people find their way once they get off the paths?? Again this is a waste of our money.

That is all

[Polar Bear]

I have read a majority of the post on this topic. I don't have facts to support this, but don't we have more miles of neighborhood roads than paths? Will those all be striped as well? How will people find their way once they get off the paths?? Again this is a waste of our money...
All but local streets are already striped.

That aside, let's just put auto-quality headlights on all golf carts. Then your comparison might make some sense.

[Kevin and Luci]

All but local streets are already striped.

That aside, let's just put auto-quality headlights on all golf carts. Then your comparison might make some sense.

Don't we drive our carts on local streets? I believe we do. I don't recall many streets we can take our carts on that are striped..... But agree better headlights properly adjusted would be great as well. Something I would do if I had trouble seeing the path. Not burden others with my personal issues.

[Polar Bear]

...Something I would do if I had trouble seeing the path. Not burden others with my personal issues.

There are areas on the paths where visibility is not very good. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "personal issues".

[looneycat]

the most retarded part of this thread are all the people who can claim, with a 'straight face', that striping won't improve visibility at night....I guess they have never driven any unlit highways at night....come on say it is not so, I will be laughing at your claims.

[Kevin and Luci]

Sounds like this subject is a done deal anyway...... Let's focus on installing netting enclosures along all paths the run through or along the courses. We need to keep everyone safe, right? I'm sure for the cost of one meal out we can make it happen.

[Polar Bear]

(The sarcasm is growing weaker and weaker in this thread.)

Honest question...is this a "done deal" yet? And if so, are edge stripes planned for all paths? Or just selected areas?

[Mleeja]

Sounds like this subject is a done deal anyway...... Let's focus on installing netting enclosures along all paths the run through or along the courses. We need to keep everyone safe, right? I'm sure for the cost of one meal out we can make it happen.

I think this is far from being a done deal. I am thinking it will not happen. It will come up again after there is a seriuos accident and the lawyers start looking for the deep pockets.

I just want to make a comment about headlights on the carts. If you've been paying attention when on the Multi-Modal paths, the are NOT straight! They are gently curving and have undulations. If you are in a low spot it would be very easy for oncoming headlights to be directly in your eyes. Miss aligned headlights is just not a valid argument.

[bagboy]

If you buy into the $1 per household justification argument, there are not 392,000 homes here. The cost initially of up to 400K will come from amenity fees. Not an insignificant sum from a fund that is meant to maintain our amenities, not to finance expenditures based on a few supervisors whims and ideas as to what's best for the rest of us.
And the facts show 3 accidents per year after 7 pm for the last 4 years. Hardly an alarming number. What I find alarming is the elected supervisors in various districts trying to spend our amenity fee funds on anything other than for what they were intended.

[Bogie Shooter]

Is this really true? Just askin.

[Wing-nut2]

The paths are fine, leave them alone.

[mickey100]

Don't we drive our carts on local streets? I believe we do. I don't recall many streets we can take our carts on that are striped..... But agree better headlights properly adjusted would be great as well. Something I would do if I had trouble seeing the path. Not burden others with my personal issues.

Bingo!

[mickey100]

the most retarded part of this thread are all the people who can claim, with a 'straight face', that striping won't improve visibility at night....I guess they have never driven any unlit highways at night....come on say it is not so, I will be laughing at your claims.

The question that needs to be asked has to do with accidents i.e. will spending the $300,000+ on striping reduce accidents. The data from the engineering study says no.

[mickey100]

If you buy into the $1 per household justification argument, there are not 392,000 homes here. The cost initially of up to 400K will come from amenity fees. Not an insignificant sum from a fund that is meant to maintain our amenities, not to finance expenditures based on a few supervisors whims and ideas as to what's best for the rest of us.
And the facts show 3 accidents per year after 7 pm for the last 4 years. Hardly an alarming number. What I find alarming is the elected supervisors in various districts trying to spend our amenity fee funds on anything other than for what they were intended.

Amen.

[buzzy]

If you buy into the $1 per household justification argument, there are not 392,000 homes here. The cost initially of up to 400K will come from amenity fees. Not an insignificant sum from a fund that is meant to maintain our amenities, not to finance expenditures based on a few supervisors whims and ideas as to what's best for the rest of us.
And the facts show 3 accidents per year after 7 pm for the last 4 years. Hardly an alarming number. What I find alarming is the elected supervisors in various districts trying to spend our amenity fee funds on anything other than for what they were intended.

I can't find the link to the study results. Do you still have it?

[Mleeja]

If you buy into the $1 per household justification argument, there are not 392,000 homes here. The cost initially of up to 400K will come from amenity fees. Not an insignificant sum from a fund that is meant to maintain our amenities, not to finance expenditures based on a few supervisors whims and ideas as to what's best for the rest of us.
And the facts show 3 accidents per year after 7 pm for the last 4 years. Hardly an alarming number. What I find alarming is the elected supervisors in various districts trying to spend our amenity fee funds on anything other than for what they were intended.

Let's do the math. The cost of thermoplastic striping is approximately $300,000. I'll give you a $100,000 for additional startup cost. The total cost would be $400,000. The striping will last 5 to 7 years. We will use 5 years to make things simple. The cost per year spreadout over the 5 years is $80,000 per year.

With 100,000 residents, this becomes 80 cents per person per year. You can't buy a cup of coffee for 80 cents, but you can make the multi modal paths a whole lot safer.

[dbussone]

Bad idea, no data, no science, let's do it.

[looneycat]

The question that needs to be asked has to do with accidents i.e. will spending the $300,000+ on striping reduce accidents. The data from the engineering study says no.

ask the families of the fatal cart accidents....and all the others who have had accidents largely unreported in the daily sun, that's all.

[ditka41]

We do NOT need to add stripes. They will not reduce accidents which are largely caused by impairment, either chemical or physical. If you shouldn't drive a car on the streets, you don't belong on the pathway in a golf cart either. Give it up and wait for daylight.

[Barefoot]

With 100,000 residents, this becomes 80 cents per person per year. You can't buy a cup of coffee for 80 cents, but you can make the multi modal paths a whole lot safer.

It has yet to be proven that striping would make the MM paths a whole lot safer. I think that is the dilemma, not the cost.

[mickey100]

ask the families of the fatal cart accidents....and all the others who have had accidents largely unreported in the daily sun, that's all.

Hearsay. If there was a fatal accident, it would have been reported, and would have been taken into account in the engineering study. And supposing there had been one fatal accident, doesn't mean it was related to poor visibility. Suppose someone had took much to drink, tripped getting into their golf cart, fell off their golf cart and suffered a fatal head injury. Oh, and this happened at night. Would striping have prevented that accident? Of course not. You always need to look at each accident, take into account the circumstances, and then determine cause and effect, and possible mitigation. There probably are accidents that occur that are not reported, but we can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on something that may or may not have happened without clearly identifying the cause of such accidents. Good engineering is made on actual data, not guesses.

On another note, people don't seem to realize that thermoplastic is an expensive proposition to install and maintain. And it can be a maintenance headache. The roadway surface has to be extremely dry before you put it down, otherwise it won't adhere well to the roadway surface. There are very exacting temperature and depth requirements regarding its application which affect durability and effectiveness of reflectivity. Given the humidity and rains we get here in Florida, and some of the construction practices I've seen here, I'm not confident that the contractors would get a good application down, and the lifespan will end up being shorter than the optimal one they are quoting us. It will look nice for a few years, but then it fades, starts coming up in small pieces, and frankly looks crummy. When they go to replace it, they'll probably go over the top of the previous lines. The lines won't line up exactly, so it will look worse the second time around. Additionally, when the put it down, it won't be right at the edge of pavement, it will be inset some which will decrease the width of the travel lane.

As a retired engineer, I think think the commissioners should heed the engineering report and vote against side striping at this time. A concerted effort should be made to keep track of all accidents on recreational trails, and keep those statistics for future reference. If, a few years down the road, it is found that the accident history justifies some sort of markings, install them at that time. At this point in time, the accident history does NOT justify pavement markings, certainly not thermoplastic.

[Walter123]

Bowling Alley bumpers are the answer.

[Challenger]

Hearsay. If there was a fatal accident, it would have been reported, and would have been taken into account in the engineering study. And supposing there had been one fatal accident, doesn't mean it was related to poor visibility. Suppose someone had took much to drink, tripped getting into their golf cart, fell off their golf cart and suffered a fatal head injury. Oh, and this happened at night. Would striping have prevented that accident? Of course not. You always need to look at each accident, take into account the circumstances, and then determine cause and effect, and possible mitigation. There probably are accidents that occur that are not reported, but we can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on something that may or may not have happened without clearly identifying the cause of such accidents. Good engineering is made on actual data, not guesses.

On another note, people don't seem to realize that thermoplastic is an expensive proposition to install and maintain. And it can be a maintenance headache. The roadway surface has to be extremely dry before you put it down, otherwise it won't adhere well to the roadway surface. There are very exacting temperature and depth requirements regarding its application which affect durability and effectiveness of reflectivity. Given the humidity and rains we get here in Florida, and some of the construction practices I've seen here, I'm not confident that the contractors would get a good application down, and the lifespan will end up being shorter than the optimal one they are quoting us. It will look nice for a few years, but then it fades, starts coming up in small pieces, and frankly looks crummy. When they go to replace it, they'll probably go over the top of the previous lines. The lines won't line up exactly, so it will look worse the second time around. Additionally, when the put it down, it won't be right at the edge of pavement, it will be inset some which will decrease the width of the travel lane.

As a retired engineer, I think think the commissioners should heed the engineering report and vote against side striping at this time. A concerted effort should be made to keep track of all accidents on recreational trails, and keep those statistics for future reference. If, a few years down the road, it is found that the accident history justifies some sort of markings, install them at that time. At this point in time, the accident history does NOT justify pavement markings, certainly not thermoplastic.

Once again I ask, why would you want to act on facts , when we have perfectly good rumors, inuendo and conspiracy theories on which to base decisions?

Great post!!

[billethkid]

I thought it was time for a "refresh".
We have been away for a few weeks and just recently returned.
So as I was driving the MMP I took particular note of the didtinctive difference between the black top main part of the path and the 6 or 8 inch inch cement side stripes.

How much more prominent can the edges of the MMP be than what is there now?

And if the side striping should happen to be done, where will the stripes go? On top of the cement edges? or inside the cement edges thus making the driving area that much smaller.

I have read there is a proposal to power wash the cement edges to "brighten them up for around $15,000.

That may appease some. There are those who will not rest until the striping is officially killed (or implemented....hopefully not).

There is sufficiently visible edge marking in place now. If it was mu decision I would clean up some of the places where the edges are overgrown. I would not power wash the other 40 miles as it will not be that significant.

There are more pressing projects the money could be applied to.

I know the current edging does not glow.....but that is not neccessay to see where it is. And as has been pointed out in a post some where, the tape or the paint after a few years in the sun will begin to look raggedy. There is evidence of this throughout TV.

Sometimes it is too easy to take a position from the keyboard....it is most convenient.
The next time you are out and about on your golf car, pay particular attention to the cement edging and how noteable it really is.

[outlaw]

Instead of harping on about stripes, we should be looking into banking the turns for the more performance oriented golf carts. Look at the money we could all save on brakes.

[CFrance]

Performance-oriented golf carts? Would those be the ones modified to go faster than the law allows?:evil6:

[JoMar]

Instead of harping on about stripes, we should be looking into banking the turns for the more performance oriented golf carts. Look at the money we could all save on brakes.

We could also have drag chute packs installed...:).

[JoMar]

ask the families of the fatal cart accidents....and all the others who have had accidents largely unreported in the daily sun, that's all.

And exactly on what MM path was that fatal accident?