Softball and Multi-Modal Paths

[Mleeja]

You are saying to youirself, "what the heck is this about'? I noticed in today's DS that the AAC is spending $525K to upgrade softball diamonds. How many Villagers will this benefit? 200 or 300 softbal players? Personally, I am "OK" with the upgrades.

But what surprises me is the people who are so adamant against spending ANY money to to stripe the cart paths which would improve safety for everyone in The Villages have not said a peep about the softball diamonds. Makes me wonder where their priorities lay?

Just wondering.....

[Jayhawk]

How many Villagers will this benefit? 200 or 300 softbal players?


Actually, there are between 200 and 300 TEAMS depending on the season, and there are 3 seasons per year. So there are thousands of players, and probably another couple thousand people who come to watch games over the course of a season. Plus umpires, scorers, evaluation staff, etc. And finally the tournaments which draw people to The Villages. I recall last year the Canseco brothers brought their team to a tournament.

All amenities need maintenance. They just don't all make the front page. And much of the softball maintenance was for safety purposes.

As far as the striping goes, it wasn't even recommended by the engineer who did the study so who can say they would be any safer.


:D

[Mleeja]

Actually, there are between 200 and 300 TEAMS depending on the season, and there are 3 seasons per year. So there are thousands of players, and probably another couple thousand people who come to watch games over the course of a season. Plus umpires, scorers, evaluation staff, etc. And finally the tournaments which draw people to The Villages. I recall last year the Canseco brothers brought their team to a tournament.

All amenities need maintenance. They just don't all make the front page. And much of the softball maintenance was for safety purposes.

As far as the striping goes, it wasn't even recommended by the engineer who did the study so who can say they would be any safer.


:D

Again, don't get me wrong. I am ok with the expendure for the softball diamonds. I would like to see the engineering study for the diamonds.... Opps, there wasn't one. The AAC when ahead and did the right thing and approved the upgrades.

[graciegirl]

Again, don't get me wrong. I am ok with the expendure for the softball diamonds. I would like to see the engineering study for the diamonds.... Opps, there wasn't one. The AAC when ahead and did the right thing and approved the upgrades.


The AAC is involved with the area north of 466.

[Jayhawk]

I would like to see the engineering study for the diamonds.... Opps, there wasn't one.

You are probably right. It really doesn't require an engineer to tell you if someone runs into a broken fence they can and likely will suffer injury. Or if the grass ins't watered it will likely die off, and if water doesn't drain properly people might fall and get hurt. Or if the turf is bad they can incur knee injuries, torn hamstrings, and on and on.

As for the stripes, the study WAS done and the engineer did not recommend proceeding as there is no proof they will help anything.

[tuccillo]

It is actually about 2000-3000 softball players.

You are saying to youirself, "what the heck is this about'? I noticed in today's DS that the AAC is spending $525K to upgrade softball diamonds. How many Villagers will this benefit? 200 or 300 softbal players? Personally, I am "OK" with the upgrades.

But what surprises me is the people who are so adamant against spending ANY money to to stripe the cart paths which would improve safety for everyone in The Villages have not said a peep about the softball diamonds. Makes me wonder where their priorities lay?

Just wondering.....

[newguyintv]

You are saying to youirself, "what the heck is this about'? I noticed in today's DS that the AAC is spending $525K to upgrade softball diamonds. How many Villagers will this benefit? 200 or 300 softbal players? Personally, I am "OK" with the upgrades.

But what surprises me is the people who are so adamant against spending ANY money to to stripe the cart paths which would improve safety for everyone in The Villages have not said a peep about the softball diamonds. Makes me wonder where their priorities lay?

Just wondering.....

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

[graciegirl]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.





And debates like this are the reason I am so glad that the Developer is still in charge of the area where I live. So far they have made not perfect perhaps, but very reasonable decisions and have given us NOT ALL our choices but varied choices for enjoyable amenities. I don't play softball but many, many, many play and enjoy it mightily and it was here when I arrived and I hope that it will continue and that the areas will be maintained for an enjoyable experience for all involved.


I have witnessed money spent on foolishness sanctioned by well meaning homeowners associations run by inexperienced homeowners in the past.. The striping of the cart paths is a judgment call and many are passionate about it. I don't think it would change much but people that I respect think differently. If we all saw things the same way, they would only sell vanilla ice cream.

[tuccillo]

Presumably you also have issues with the 30+ executive courses, and the pickle ball courts, and the tennis courts, and the pools, and the bocce courts, and the cornhole courts, and the shuffleboard courts, and the billiard rooms, and the air rifle ranges, etc. Nobody uses all the facilities but we all pay to support them.


Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

[newguyintv]

And debates like this are the reason I am so glad that the Developer is still in charge of the area where I live. So far they have made not perfect perhaps, but very reaoonable decisions and have given us NOT ALL our choices but varied choices for enjoyable amenities. I don't play softball but many, many, many play and enjoy it mightily and it was here when I arrived and I hope that it will continue and that the areas will be maintained for an enjoyable experience for all involved.


I have witnessed money spent on foolishness sanctioned by well meaning homeowners associations. The striping of the cart paths is a judgment call and many are passionate about it. I don't think it would change much but people that I respect think differently.

How can you not respect someone you don't even know?

[graciegirl]

How can you not respect someone you don't even know?



If you mean why do I respect the developers who I don't know, because time after time after time after time, I have witnessed good decisions that they have made. If you mean people who post on here, I have a splinter skill of remembering what people type. I agree with some people almost all of the time and have learned to respect the way they make decisions.


And of course the opposite is true.

[dbussone]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.


The engineering study did not support the need for striping the MMPs. What is so difficult to understand about that? Hence, there is no need to waste $300k.

I don't play softball either but I know many who do. Instead I waste my time on golf courses chasing a little ball around. Perhaps the PWAC would like to waste some additional money funding the unnecessary striping of golf cart paths. But first we can spend some money on an engineering study. That's the ticket!

[newguyintv]

If you mean why do I respect the developers who I don't know, because time after time after time after time, I have witnessed good decisions that they have made. If you mean people who post on here, I have a splinter skill of remembering what people type. I agree with some people almost all of the time and have learned to respect the way they make decisions.


And of course the opposite is true.

Wow! Good for you!

[John_W]

As far as I know, all the softball field improvements at Buffalo Glen and Saddlebrook have been completed. I think they are still working on Knudsen Field, but that location is for level 5 teams only and usually those teams have players with disabilities. I guess if you don't play softball or have a disability, your response would be, then why the heck should we waste our money on those people?

Just the other day I was sitting in a dentist office reading a retirement magazine and in their letter section someone wrote, I play softball here in Boston and I'm looking to retire in Florida, are there any retirement communities with softball leagues?

[Barefoot]

The engineering study did not support the need for striping the MMPs. What is so difficult to understand about that? Hence, there is no need to waste $300k.

I don't play softball either but I know many who do. Instead I waste my time on golf courses chasing a little ball around. Perhaps the PWAC would like to waste some additional money funding the unnecessary striping of golf cart paths. But first we can spend some money on an engineering study. That's the ticket!

I could talk about the need for more dog parks, since we only have three puny little parks.
The dog population is thought to be over 50,000. Many households have two dogs.
We all have our pet activities we'd like to see nurtured.
The Developer is his wisdom decided where money should be spent. He didn't stripe all the golf cart paths.
And he didn't chose to make a lot of dog parks either.
The point is -- we can't all have things exactly the way we want.
So far, I think the Developer made some very smart decisions.

[Happydaz]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

The problem as I see it is not just the expense of striping the MULTI-MODAL PATHS but also the fact that many people are now calling these golf cart paths. Once all these lines are painted, golf cart drivers will be further inclined to consider these as their highways. The engineers who recommended not to stripe the paths mentioned this in their report. They also said that striping will not increase safety. Walkers, joggers, and bicyclists will be pushed to second class users and their safety will be jeopardized. It is becoming evident that more people are beginning to see these paths as golf cart only paths. An expense, not recommended by experts, is not a good use of our money. Leave the softball players alone. Don't bring an important expense that is needed to justify an expense that appears to have a lot of emotion but very little rational basis as evidenced by the expert engineers negative report. Unfortunately many people never let facts interfere with their emotions.

[dbussone]

I could talk about the need for more dog parks, since we only have three puny little parks.
The dog population is thought to be over 50,000. Many households have two dogs.
We all have our pet activities we'd like to see nurtured.
The Developer is his wisdom decided where money should be spent. He didn't stripe all the golf cart paths.
And he didn't chose to make a lot of dog parks either.
The point is -- we can't all have things exactly the way we want.
So far, I think the Developer made some very smart decisions.


We agree completely. My comment about striping cart paths on the golf courses was just slightly tongue in cheek. Besides I leave a trail of breadcrumbs when I play golf so I can find my way back to the starter's shack.

[billethkid]

How can you not respect someone you don't even know?

OH oh why does the tone of this post sound familiar?

[hulahips]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

What a terrible thing to say. I think it's wonderful so many guys are still in shape to play softball. Softball and pickleball are the most active and popular sports here. Thousands play softball and keeping up the softball fields is as important as keeping up the pickleball courts. I'd say maybe the old farts are golfing but I wouldn't be that rude! It's great to be active in whatever sport you choose! And some of those softball players still look pretty darn good!!

[dbussone]

What a terrible thing to say. I think it's wonderful so many guys are still in shape to play softball. Softball and pickleball are the most active and popular sports here. Thousands play softball and keeping up the softball fields is as important as keeping up the pickleball courts. I'd say maybe the old farts are golfing but I wouldn't be that rude! It's great to be active in whatever sport you choose! And some of those softball players still look pretty darn good!!


Nicely done Hula.

[billethkid]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

But a bunch of old farts doing whatever you like to do is OK?
(I had to go back...this one has a familiar ring to it as well.)

[njbchbum]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

Interesting judgement about people and opinion on improvements.

Just what sort of things do you give a crap about besides wasting Villagers money on striping that the engineer's report did not recommend?

[njbchbum]

The problem as I see it is not just the expense of striping the MULTI-MODAL PATHS but also the fact that many people are now calling these golf cart paths. Once all these lines are painted, golf cart drivers will be further inclined to consider these as their highways. The engineers who recommended not to stripe the paths mentioned this in their report. They also said that striping will not increase safety. Walkers, joggers, and bicyclists will be pushed to second class users and their safety will be jeopardized. It is becoming evident that more people are beginning to see these paths as golf cart only paths. An expense, not recommended by experts, is not a good use of our money. Leave the softball players alone. Don't bring an important expense that is needed to justify an expense that appears to have a lot of emotion but very little rational basis as evidenced by the expert engineers negative report. Unfortunately many people never let facts interfere with their emotions.

Happydaz - You are spot on! The Villages is dealing with multi-modal paths and NOT glof cart paths! Golf cart drivers who cannot navigate a multi-modal path or who choose to push the limits when using said path should STAY OFF of them! Accepting that these are multi-modal paths and NOT golf cart only paths just doesn't seem to fit in with their agenda.

[CFrance]

Happydaz - You are spot on! The Villages is dealing with multi-modal paths and NOT glof cart paths! Golf cart drivers who cannot navigate a multi-modal path or who choose to push the limits when using said path should STAY OFF of them! Accepting that these are multi-modal paths and NOT golf cart only paths just doesn't seem to fit in with their agenda.
That's never gonna happen, the same way it doesn't happen on the public streets and highways, which are nonetheless upgraded constantly for safety's sake.

I wish people would stop blaming lack of visibility on the MMPs on poor drivers. And telling them when and when not they should drive. Not all accidents are caused by poor drivers.

Besides, people were for this until they found out it would cast them maybe $3 a year for the rest of their lives. Now the hue and cry that it's not needed. Did they think it was going to be free?

[Mleeja]

I can harly wait until the repair of the foundation of the Morse Blvd bridge over Lake Sumter comes up again.... Maybe the cost of striping can be tied in with this cost. ��

[njbchbum]

That's never gonna happen, the same way it doesn't happen on the public streets and highways, which are nonetheless upgraded constantly for safety's sake.

I wish people would stop blaming lack of visibility on the MMPs on poor drivers. And telling them when and when not they should drive. Not all accidents are caused by poor drivers.

Besides, people were for this until they found out it would cast them maybe $3 a year for the rest of their lives. Now the hue and cry that it's not needed. Did they think it was going to be free?


If the engineer's report indicated that safety would not be significantly improved with striping - what else but following the guidelines and better attention to driving will bring about greater safety?

[CFrance]

The engineer's report was more skewed toward keeping the MMPs from being considered by the golf cart drivers as exclusively their own than it was geared toward increasing safety and visibility at night. These reports are about as good as expert witnesses--you have yours and I have mine.

[njbchbum]

The engineer's report was more skewed toward keeping the MMPs from being considered by the golf cart drivers as exclusively their own than it was geared toward increasing safety and visibility at night. These reports are about as good as expert witnesses--you have yours and I have mine.

As you say, we each have our opinions. But skewed? Perhaps that is also personal opinion.

[Mleeja]

I have read the engineering report. It states roughly that based on current standards, the marking of the MMPs are not warranted. In other words, there are not governmental requirements for marking the paths. Also base on accident data, in their opinion there is no evidence that striping would make the paths safer. The key words are "based on accident data". What the report does not say is they drove the paths at night to personally observe the driving conditions. They did not conduct any traffic or volume study on the paths. They did not take into account the serpentine and undulations of the paths to study the effect that these conditions have on driving and night time visibility. They looked a two data points. Hell yes, based on these two data points we would all probably come to the same conclusion. But is this "real world"? Nope... If you want a complete picture of the safety of the paths some type of traffic study needs to be completed. I am not seeing where this was preformed.

[CFrance]

I have read the engineering report. It states roughly that based on current standards, the marking of the MMPs are not warranted. In other words, there are not governmental requirements for marking the paths. Also base on accident data, in their opinion there is no evidence that striping would make the paths safer. The key words are "based on accident data". What the report does not say is they drove the paths at night to personally observe the driving conditions. They did not conduct any traffic or volume study on the paths. They did not take into account the serpentine and undulations of the paths to study the effect that these conditions have on driving and night time visibility. They looked a two data points. Hell yes, based on these two data points we would all probably come to the same conclusion. But is this "real world"? Nope... If you want a complete picture of the safety of the paths some type of traffic study needs to be complete. I am not seeing where this was preformed.
That's what I meant when I called the engineering study "skewed." They looked at as little as they had could. It's almost like they had an opinion to begin with and were looking only to uphold that opinion. Who called for this study originally? And what does anybody know about this particular firm--what there area of expertise is, etc.

Were they the same people who suggested the layout of Colony Blvd and the golf cart path intersection?

[The Buckeyes]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

People move to The Villages for a variety of reasons which also include recreation....all amenities require maintenance (including softball fields for old farts). Monies need to be set aside to provide for each depending on the maintenance schedule to keep all in tip-top shape. By the way....not everyone owns a golf cart!!!

[PaPaLarry]

How can you not respect someone you don't even know?
I don't know about you, but I do respect and APPRECIATE the improvements in The Villages, and also appreciate the Villagers who play softball. The game of softball here is very, very popular!!!! I'm sure you have some sort of sport or activity that you like, which is taken care of by The Villages. I myself, play golf, and I appreciate all the improvements done to all the exectuve courses, (by the way, they are played for free) and I definetly like the championship courses, and the care they give them. Hats off to the Developers, and the CCD's that make decisions, that benefit all of us

[dbussone]

That's what I meant when I called the engineering study "skewed." They looked at as little as they had could. It's almost like they had an opinion to begin with and were looking only to uphold that opinion. Who called for this study originally? And what does anybody know about this particular firm--what there area of expertise is, etc.

Were they the same people who suggested the layout of Colony Blvd and the golf cart path intersection?


Ouch! Probably right on target.

[Carpe Diem]

I'm sure that these assumptions are off but I think this is a legitimate way of looking at it. . .

300 teams x 12 players a team = 3600 players
$525,000 / 3600 players = $145 per player

So if you take just one month of each softball player's amenities fees and put it towards the complex and don't take a penny from anybody else's amenities fees to support it - the complex is fully paid for.

Sounds fair to me. I'm sure most softball players would be willing to pay two months worth of amenities fees towards the complex. That being so, IMO the district should go back and decide to put one month of amenities fees ($500k) towards renovations and upgrades every 5-7 years.

[DonH57]

I'm not a really old fart yet but I respect the really, really, old farts that still play softball as I have no intention of doing it. I'm happy doing water activities and golf. I did enough damage to my body during my working years. I can no longer do it and that what sometimes really hurts.

[Carpe Diem]

The cost of striping the paths is really a pittance. It is obvious that the study concluded that statistical analysis showed that - despite our feelings - the multi modal paths are safe and striping would not make them significantly safer - if safer at all. (I've never seen an accident in an area where striping would be done.) In any case, cost was not the reason for not doing this.

Finally, with respect to dog parks. I don't care for dogs much. But I think dog lovers have a legitimate request for dedicating one month of dog owners amenities fees towards creating a few more dog parks. The problem is - most of the land has been turned into housing. I was shocked when I saw that there wasn't more green space reserved for these types of things in the south. Just shocked.

[notdeadyet]

I am constantly amazed when a group hires subject matter experts to study and report on those things the group needs expert opinions on, and when the SMEs give their reports, the hiring group ignores the experts' opinion.
Pretty stupid.

[outlaw]

I am constantly amazed when a group hires subject matter experts to study and report on those things the group needs expert opinions on, and when the SMEs give their reports, the hiring group ignores the experts' opinion.
Pretty stupid.

Do you know if the engineer that conducted this study is in fact a SME in this particular subject?

[Jima64]

I'm sure that these assumptions are off but I think this is a legitimate way of looking at it. . .

300 teams x 12 players a team = 3600 players
$525,000 / 3600 players = $145 per player

So if you take just one month of each softball player's amenities fees and put it towards the complex and don't take a penny from anybody else's amenities fees to support it - the complex is fully paid for.

Sounds fair to me. I'm sure most softball players would be willing to pay two months worth of amenities fees towards the complex. That being so, IMO the district should go back and decide to put one month of amenities fees ($500k) towards renovations and upgrades every 5-7 years.
You might get even more people if you were to poll it and let those that enjoy watching the games count.

[graciegirl]

I'm sure that these assumptions are off but I think this is a legitimate way of looking at it. . .

300 teams x 12 players a team = 3600 players
$525,000 / 3600 players = $145 per player

So if you take just one month of each softball player's amenities fees and put it towards the complex and don't take a penny from anybody else's amenities fees to support it - the complex is fully paid for.

Sounds fair to me. I'm sure most softball players would be willing to pay two months worth of amenities fees towards the complex. That being so, IMO the district should go back and decide to put one month of amenities fees ($500k) towards renovations and upgrades every 5-7 years.



I am SO glad that the people who have been managing the monies where I live STILL manage the monies where I live.


Someone asked in another debate on the restored trees....WHERE DID THEY GET THE MONEY TO DO THAT? When I replied that I was sure that there was money for unexpected things budgeted and that we wouldn't be personally charged...., He replied We don't need a slush fund. The idea of being self insured and budgeted for maintenance is new to some, as well as living inside our income.


We just can't have everything we want. And we can't have everything they want, or she wants, or he wants, and still run in the black. Prices will have to go up somewhere.

OH PLEASE DEVELOPERS, continue to run this place as you have. I so respect your good judgment.

[Arctic Fox]

There are really only two ways to run a community like ours.

Either we "pay to play" - you want to swim in the sports pool? hand over some money at the door - or we accept that we ALL contribute towards maintaining ALL of the facilities, whether we use them or not.

I do not play softball, but I am delighted that those facilities are being well-maintained so that they can be fully-enjoyed, just as I hope that non-swimmers are happy to help pay for the sports pools to be kept in good order so that I can get my fur wet.

[yabbadu]

There are really only two ways to run a community like ours.

Either we "pay to play" - you want to swim in the sports pool? hand over some money at the door - or we accept that we ALL contribute towards maintaining ALL of the facilities, whether we use them or not.

I do not play softball, but I am delighted that those facilities are being well-maintained so that they can be fully-enjoyed, just as I hope that non-swimmers are happy to help pay for the sports pools to be kept in good order so that I can get my fur wet.

Amen!

[Polar Bear]

There are really only two ways to run a community like ours.



Either we "pay to play" - you want to swim in the sports pool? hand over some money at the door - or we accept that we ALL contribute towards maintaining ALL of the facilities, whether we use them or not.



I do not play softball, but I am delighted that those facilities are being well-maintained so that they can be fully-enjoyed, just as I hope that non-swimmers are happy to help pay for the sports pools to be kept in good order so that I can get my fur wet.

Well said.

[graciegirl]

That's what I meant when I called the engineering study "skewed." They looked at as little as they had could. It's almost like they had an opinion to begin with and were looking only to uphold that opinion. Who called for this study originally? And what does anybody know about this particular firm--what there area of expertise is, etc.

Were they the same people who suggested the layout of Colony Blvd and the golf cart path intersection?









Kimley-Horn (http://www.kimley-horn.com/)

[Polar Bear]

I dealt with Kimley-Horn many times in my engineering career. They are a very good, responsible firm, in my opinion of course.

The "problem" is, there is nobody who is an expert in MMP's such as those in TV when compared to other fields, such as highways, roads and streets. Golf cart intensive communities such as TV simply have not existed for long enough or in enough numbers to generate the quantity of data that would be meaningful in any definitive sense.

[Debree]

There are really only two ways to run a community like ours.

Either we "pay to play" - you want to swim in the sports pool? hand over some money at the door - or we accept that we ALL contribute towards maintaining ALL of the facilities, whether we use them or not.

I do not play softball, but I am delighted that those facilities are being well-maintained so that they can be fully-enjoyed, just as I hope that non-swimmers are happy to help pay for the sports pools to be kept in good order so that I can get my fur wet.

Perfect response Arctic Fox. Thank you

[spring_chicken]

I don't understand the part about looks like someone didn't get drafted. And who is old enough to be an old fart and to whom?

I guess you would need to ask the poster who referred to all softball players as "old farts". My reply was in response to his post (forgot to use quote feature, sorry!)
As for not getting drafted, each season there is a draft where the managers draft their team. When it gets down to the 12th round, there are sometimes players who remain undrafted. They have a choice of moving down a division or playing as a sub only. (Ladies Div. 1)

[graciegirl]

I guess you would need to ask the poster who referred to all softball players as "old farts". My reply was in response to his post (forgot to use quote feature, sorry!)
As for not getting drafted, each season there is a draft where the managers draft their team. When it gets down to the 12th round, there are sometimes players who remain undrafted. They have a choice of moving down a division or playing as a sub only. (Ladies Div. 1)



Thank you for your explanation.


Gracie who is probably an old fart.

[spring_chicken]

Thank you for your explanation.


Gracie who is probably an old fart.


By the definition in the earlier post, so am I. But I'm an old fart who is currently ranked #1 in the world in 1 track event and #3 in two others, so that other poster can have his rocking chair!

[looneycat]

I have read the engineering report. It states roughly that based on current standards, the marking of the MMPs are not warranted. In other words, there are not governmental requirements for marking the paths. Also base on accident data, in their opinion there is no evidence that striping would make the paths safer. The key words are "based on accident data". What the report does not say is they drove the paths at night to personally observe the driving conditions. They did not conduct any traffic or volume study on the paths. They did not take into account the serpentine and undulations of the paths to study the effect that these conditions have on driving and night time visibility. They looked a two data points. Hell yes, based on these two data points we would all probably come to the same conclusion. But is this "real world"? Nope... If you want a complete picture of the safety of the paths some type of traffic study needs to be completed. I am not seeing where this was preformed.

amen

[Dynsol]

Absolutely right. I for one don't much give a crap for a bunch of old farts who think they are still kids and play softball. The Softball field improvements are a total waste of money that could be much better spent on making our cart paths safer for all the 100,000 + residents, myself included.

At what age does one become an old fart? Is it not each persons responsibility when before you buy into the Villages to know what your expenses are and where your money is spent? Does not everyone have the ability to become part of their districts board so you can voice your opinion?
IMHO I do not think 100,000 people think the Cart paths are unsafe!

Are people that don't give a crap old farts? :popcorn:

[aanton1129]

If you need a line to keep you on the right side of the path, well ????

[Cedwards38]

As per today's Daily Sun article, can someone tell me what the potential liability issues we might face from striping the multi modal paths? I'm struggling to come up with anything that the stripes might cause that would subject us to some court action. Seriously, someone help me understand the Boards concerns here. I'm wondering if that is just a Bullshot (for those of you who may not know, a bullshot is just one little taste of the stuff from which it derives it's name).

[Mikeod]

As per today's Daily Sun article, can someone tell me what the potential liability issues we might face from striping the multi modal paths? I'm struggling to come up with anything that the stripes might cause that would subject us to some court action. Seriously, someone help me understand the Boards concerns here. I'm wondering if that is just a Bullshot (for those of you who may not know, a bullshot is just one little taste of the stuff from which it derives it's name).
Well, just off the top of my head, what if someone driving the path at night gets confused and thinks the white side stripe is the center line. They think they are on the wrong side of the path and pull right, colliding with a fence post or tree. Their attorney discovers the CDD installed the stripes against the advice of an engineering firm hired to determine if the stripes were a good idea. Lawsuit.

With the frequency that the dividing posts on the paths are crumpled, I don't think that scenario is a stretch.

[TheVillageChicken]

Well, just off the top of my head, what if someone driving the path at night gets confused and thinks the white side stripe is the center line. They think they are on the wrong side of the path and pull right, colliding with a fence post or tree. Their attorney discovers the CDD installed the stripes against the advice of an engineering firm hired to determine if the stripes were a good idea. Lawsuit.

With the frequency that the dividing posts on the paths are crumpled, I don't think that scenario is a stretch.

You have just outlined my plan. $$$$$$$$$$

[Cedwards38]

Well, just off the top of my head, what if someone driving the path at night gets confused and thinks the white side stripe is the center line. They think they are on the wrong side of the path and pull right, colliding with a fence post or tree. Their attorney discovers the CDD installed the stripes against the advice of an engineering firm hired to determine if the stripes were a good idea. Lawsuit.

With the frequency that the dividing posts on the paths are crumpled, I don't think that scenario is a stretch.

Thanks Mikeod. I appreciate your response. That scenario is certainly a possibility that should be considered, but would the probability be high for us to be potentially liable for a cart driver's bad judgement and mistake? Wouldn't we actually decrease our liability by taking action to install safety lines? I don't see how a reasonable jury could determine that our actions of striping could have caused that accident. Couldn't you make just as valid an argument that not striping would subject us to liability? Cart is driving at night, doesn't realize where the edge of the path lies, drives off the side of the path, collides with a fence post or tree. Attorney takes us to court for not being proactive, thus causing a safety hazard?

Is Mikeod's scenario, and others like it the reason that the engineers recommend against them rather than for them?

[Arctic Fox]

I'm struggling to come up with anything that the stripes might cause that would subject us to some court action.

The edge of the thermoplastic strip might lift up slightly and create an edge if not fully-sealed to the tarmac, causing someone to trip or fall off their bike or in-line skates, or maybe it lacks grip when wet, causing someone to slip?

If you can sue a restaurant for serving hot coffee...

[xNYer]

And debates like this are the reason I am so glad that the Developer is still in charge of the area where I live. So far they have made not perfect perhaps, but very reasonable decisions and have given us NOT ALL our choices but varied choices for enjoyable amenities. I don't play softball but many, many, many play and enjoy it mightily and it was here when I arrived and I hope that it will continue and that the areas will be maintained for an enjoyable experience for all involved.


I have witnessed money spent on foolishness sanctioned by well meaning homeowners associations run by inexperienced homeowners in the past.. The striping of the cart paths is a judgment call and many are passionate about it. I don't think it would change much but people that I respect think differently. If we all saw things the same way, they would only sell vanilla ice cream.

So you are acknowledging that The Developer controls our amenity funds?

[WhoDat]

Thanks Mikeod. I appreciate your response. That scenario is certainly a possibility that should be considered, but would the probability be high for us to be potentially liable for a cart driver's bad judgement and mistake? Wouldn't we actually decrease our liability by taking action to install safety lines? I don't see how a reasonable jury could determine that our actions of striping could have caused that accident. Couldn't you make just as valid an argument that not striping would subject us to liability? Cart is driving at night, doesn't realize where the edge of the path lies, drives off the side of the path, collides with a fence post or tree. Attorney takes us to court for not being proactive, thus causing a safety hazard?

Is Mikeod's scenario, and others like it the reason that the engineers recommend against them rather than for them?

And what does a "reasonable" jury look like. I've seen some strange decisions come down or what was expected to be a reasonable jury.

[JCMSr]

Looking at this from another perspective I believe the engineering report while stating that they did not recommend the stripes they also stated that they could see no detrimental impact to safety should they be installed. Based on that comment you could say that should the decision be made to proceed with the sideline stripes it could be looked at as going above and beyond the minimum requirements. Rather than thinking in the negative perhaps we should look at this as a positive.

[mickey100]

Thanks Mikeod. I appreciate your response. That scenario is certainly a possibility that should be considered, but would the probability be high for us to be potentially liable for a cart driver's bad judgement and mistake? Wouldn't we actually decrease our liability by taking action to install safety lines? I don't see how a reasonable jury could determine that our actions of striping could have caused that accident. Couldn't you make just as valid an argument that not striping would subject us to liability? Cart is driving at night, doesn't realize where the edge of the path lies, drives off the side of the path, collides with a fence post or tree. Attorney takes us to court for not being proactive, thus causing a safety hazard?

Is Mikeod's scenario, and others like it the reason that the engineers recommend against them rather than for them?

Engineers, i.e., the EXPERTS, have determined that striping is not recommended, therefore liability is zilch.

[outlaw]

Engineers, i.e., the EXPERTS, have determined that striping is not recommended, therefore liability is zilch.

One engineer, not necessarily an expert in this rather unique field; there may be no experts in golf cart path/MMP safety issues. Maybe not even a professional engineer.

[outlaw]

Well, just off the top of my head, what if someone driving the path at night gets confused and thinks the white side stripe is the center line. They think they are on the wrong side of the path and pull right, colliding with a fence post or tree. Their attorney discovers the CDD installed the stripes against the advice of an engineering firm hired to determine if the stripes were a good idea. Lawsuit.

With the frequency that the dividing posts on the paths are crumpled, I don't think that scenario is a stretch.

According to the news, the engineer stated at the meeting that the side stripes did not present any safety issues. I think there is a better chance of a lawsuit if there is a fatality or serious injury because of no stripes. But we shall see. Sooner or later there is going to be a head on collision between two golf carts or a walker is going to be taken out in a blind corner.... TV has deep pockets.

[Bogie Shooter]

The cost of striping the paths is really a pittance. It is obvious that the study concluded that statistical analysis showed that - despite our feelings - the multi modal paths are safe and striping would not make them significantly safer - if safer at all. (I've never seen an accident in an area where striping would be done.) In any case, cost was not the reason for not doing this.

Finally, with respect to dog parks. I don't care for dogs much. But I think dog lovers have a legitimate request for dedicating one month of dog owners amenities fees towards creating a few more dog parks. The problem is - most of the land has been turned into housing. I was shocked when I saw that there wasn't more green space reserved for these types of things in the south. Just shocked.

Have you got over the shock?

[Happydaz]

According to the news, the engineer stated at the meeting that the side stripes did not present any safety issues. I think there is a better chance of a lawsuit if there is a fatality or serious injury because of no stripes. But we shall see. Sooner or later there is going to be a head on collision between two golf carts or a walker is going to be taken out in a blind corner.... TV has deep pockets.

Why does a walker need to be taken out in a blind curve? Maybe the golf carts should never pass or drive faster than they can see around curves. Why are walkers and bicyclists always thrown up as the problem? Lines in the road will make walking and bicycling more dangerous on "the golf cart path." Golf carts will hesitate to cross the center line. Maybe a compromise would be to use reflectors to denote the entrance to dividng paths and reflectors in the middle of the curves, and leave the straightaways unlined. I would be for that.

[mickey100]

One engineer, not necessarily an expert in this rather unique field; there may be no experts in golf cart path/MMP safety issues. Maybe not even a professional engineer.


Do your homework. Kimley-Horn is an award winning engineering firm in the U.S. It has been ranked one of the top engineering firms in the country for highway/roadway design. The study prepared for The Villages was done by Kimberly-Horn, and has the backing of the engineering firm and was completed and reviewed by licensed professional civil engineers. The firm is a large one and has specially subgroups that handle the various issues that come up like environmental, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation, etc. There is no question these people are the experts. Why people with no engineering background think they are smarter than licensed professional engineers just amazes me.

[Polar Bear]

Do your homework. Kimberly-Horn is an award winning engineering firm in the U.S. It has been ranked one of the top engineering firms in the country for highway/roadway design. The study prepared for The Villages was done by Kimberly-Horn, and has the backing of the engineering firm and was completed and reviewed by licensed professional civil engineers. The firm is a large one and has specially subgroups that handle the various issues that come up like environmental, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation, etc. There is no question these people are the experts. Why people with no engineering background think they are smarter than licensed professional engineers just amazes me.
Ooh. Can't resist this one. I normally don't pick on wording/spelling type errors. But such an attitude demands it this time...

If you did your homework, you'd know it is KIMLEY-Horn. And they are a very good firm. I dealt with them often in my 30+ years of being a Professional Engineer in the transportation sector. And they probably know as much about multi-modal paths as anybody.

But I will repeat something I've said a couple times before...there are no true experts in the field of MMP's as they exist in TV. There are those who know more than most, and I would put Kimley-Horn in that category. But enough relevant data simply do not exist for anybody to be considered an expert in the same way that an engineer would be an expert in "environment, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation", or other similar fields. Large scale MMP path design...the type that intermingles seamlessly with a street system and serves significant population centers as a major transportation alternative, as in TV...is in its infancy.

[tuccillo]

"Expert" is usually a relative term at a particular point in time: they know more than others at a point in time. Information/knowledge in most fields is continually accumulated. Therefore, they, Kimley-Horn, are most likely "experts" in the field of MMP at this time. Whether the field is in is infancy is irrelevant. You obtain the best opinion at the present time from experts and make decisions based on that opinion.

Ooh. Can't resist this one. I normally don't pick on wording/spelling type errors. But such an attitude demands it this time...

If you did your homework, you'd know it is KIMLEY-Horn. And they are a very good firm. I dealt with them often in my 30+ years of being a Professional Engineer in the transportation sector. And they probably know as much about multi-modal paths as anybody.

But I will repeat something I've said a couple times before...there are no true experts in the field of MMP's as they exist in TV. There are those who know more than most, and I would put Kimley-Horn in that category. But enough relevant data simply do not exist for anybody to be considered an expert in the same way that an engineer would be an expert in "environment, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation", or other similar fields. Large scale MMP path design...the type that intermingles seamlessly with a street system and serves significant population centers as a major transportation alternative, as in TV...is in its infancy.

[Polar Bear]

...whether the field is in is infancy is irrelevant...

You say some things about "experts" I can agree with. But your statement above is not one of them.

It doesn't matter how long a field has been around or how much data are available? Come on! [emoji33]

[dbussone]

So right. Or we could all be MMP experts, as many on this thread apparently believe.

[tuccillo]

Reread my post. You missed the point - I will repeat. An expert can exist in a field in it's infancy. They are simply the ones with the best understanding at a point in time. Expert is not an absolute term in an involving discipline: today's experts may know far less than tomorrow's experts but today they are experts. This is not rocket science.

You say some things about "experts" I can agree with. But your statement above is not one of them.

It doesn't matter how long a field has been around or how much data are available? Come on! [emoji33]

[mickey100]

Ooh. Can't resist this one. I normally don't pick on wording/spelling type errors. But such an attitude demands it this time...

If you did your homework, you'd know it is KIMLEY-Horn. And they are a very good firm. I dealt with them often in my 30+ years of being a Professional Engineer in the transportation sector. And they probably know as much about multi-modal paths as anybody.

But I will repeat something I've said a couple times before...there are no true experts in the field of MMP's as they exist in TV. There are those who know more than most, and I would put Kimley-Horn in that category. But enough relevant data simply do not exist for anybody to be considered an expert in the same way that an engineer would be an expert in "environment, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation", or other similar fields. Large scale MMP path design...the type that intermingles seamlessly with a street system and serves significant population centers as a major transportation alternative, as in TV...is in its infancy.

A typo. Wow. Good job. As far as "experts and knowledgeable people" go, what Tuccillo said. My opinion is based on my 30 years as a licensed Professional Civil Engineer.

[Polar Bear]

A typo. Wow...

A typo isn't usually repeated exactly the same. But whatever. Your "typo" didn't prompt my reply. Your attitude did. That was no typo.

...My opinion is based on my 30 years as a licensed Professional Civil Engineer.

As is mine.

[Topspinmo]

I'm self proclaimed expert and know-it-all (just ask my wife) nobody asked me:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[tuccillo]

LOL.

For some silly reason that reminds me of the two paths you can go down. The first path is you become a specialist to the point where you know everything about nothing. The other path is you become a generalist to the point where you know nothing about everything.

I'm self proclaimed expert and know-it-all (just ask my wife) nobody asked me:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[TheVillageChicken]

LOL.

For some silly reason that reminds me of the two paths you can go down. The first path is you become a specialist to the point where you know everything about nothing. The other path is you become a generalist to the point where you know nothing about everything.


In addition to that, we need to be aware that one may claim 30 years' experience, when in fact they only have one year of experience repeated 30 times.

[JCMSr]

LOL.

For some silly reason that reminds me of the two paths you can go down. The first path is you become a specialist to the point where you know everything about nothing. The other path is you become a generalist to the point where you know nothing about everything.

Also having been in the construction and development field for too many years I also have a definition of an "expert" Typically when you use the term "ex" or just plain "x" you are referring to a has been. "Pert" or more commonly pronounced "spurt" is "a drip under pressure". Obviously we have more than our share of "experts" who can solve this problem. :1rotfl:

[Polar Bear]

I think this thread has run its course, at least for me. See you around the bend. :)

[Mleeja]

I think this thread has run its course, at least for me. See you around the bend. :)

PB is correct. About all that can be written has been written...typos and all. I started this thread and now am asking the Admin to close it. If others want to continue this subject, knock youself out and start your own topic.